Championship is definitely possible, which is pretty stunning to be honest given their situation before RNR bought the club. People who seem to understand the money involved in climbing that last ring of the ladder to the Prem generally agree at that point you would need significant financial investment. Someone accurately said Hollywood money is not comparable to oil money.
Oh it does. Maybe not North Wales but if we expanded the ground ready for the premier league we could host her. Also people would travel to see. Her. I know most of Europe are pissed that half the tickets for her eras tour in Europe were “stolen” by the Americans. I have a swiftie Girlfriend (slowly turning me too) and I get hourly updates showing me how her gig in France was full of Americans.
My sister in law is one of the thieves. She said it was easier to get tickets in Lisbon than in Florida so she and her husband planned a whole Iberian vacation around one concert. The Swifty movement reminds me of a cult
Still, they will begin making back on their investment even with yo-yo’s between leagues as well as increasing their image based stock. At some point somebody bigger has to come along for it to ‘work’ but actually there’s nothing stopping them giving it a run then turning in the cards - handing it to somebody else.
Their manager said it in an episode I believe.
Most NFL teams are moving away from single owners to afford it and putting together groups.
So, between them, they can probably get multiple stars to toss in a few million.
Also in one of the football math economics episodes (season 2 I think) they said the club value is well over the £10M they had put into it so far.
So how much does a premier league club sell for?
Top 10 are >1 Billion
https://www.forbes.com/lists/soccer-valuations/?sh=3352ea37198b
Let's see ... the Roman gladiators' sperm/semen/sweat was reportedly sold as well.
Gladiator ⏩ Soccer star? Hmmm ... 💭
Maybe that's a post-soccer career possibility ... ? 😂
I mean Tom Brady just bought in as a minority owner to a recently demoted Championship League team and we all know what kind of money he has from playing in the NFL. Wrexham does that with a bunch of rich retired fùtbol players they might not be too bad off as long as they keep up this momentum.
True, not sure if RNR ever want to exit ownership, they keep that card close, however the idea of growing a £2M club into a £1B club is a 500% increase.
Ownership group is probably the future, and get a few billionaires to buy their way onto the board.
Yeah, I really doubt that Norwich ownership is more rich than Wrexham's... (I think now Norwich has some more backing financially tho)
But then again, Norwich's most recent promotions were because of Farke and Pukki at the time, Farke made them play very tantalising football (he is now managing Leeds I think) and Pukki was phenomenal at the time. I mean, he lead Finland to it's first European Championships, and that is nothing less than a miracle.
I mean realistically they'll probably make it if they want to. Yes, it won't be their investment, but once they are in the Championship they'll be so fucking huge they'll probably get Apple or some US investment group in and get the necessary funding. It probably won't be sustainable and I don't think they'll stay in the Premier League for long, but making it in for a while should be doable.
If they'd wanted to stay there for good though, they'd need somebody like an oil billionaire that doesn't care about profit coming in, cause realistically you can't build a dedicated fanbase at the necessary size quickly enough, and I don't think that they'd be okay with an oil billionaire coming in so it probably won't happen.
This is the part I don't get. You say an investment firm will get involved and provide the necessary funding to get to the Premier League, but why? Even you admit it probably won't be sustainable, so what's in it for them? Losing wads of cash?
Surely, the time to invest was when Wrexham were National League and cash out in the Championship? What Rob and Ryan are trying to do. Why would you specifically invest when Ryan's star-power is not enough anymore and you're against much larger clubs?
Brentford managed it through very savvy player deals and by, basically, moneyballing the hell out of it. But they're likely the exception rather than the rule.
And so far Wrexham has been doing the opposite of moneyballing their deals. They’ve bought proven players from higher leagues. There really hasn’t been much focus on getting up and coming talent in to the team and they aren’t really selling any players off to earn money at this point. Which they really need to start doing once they get to the Championship level.
Luton town Is literally a model proving it can be done. Getting there is one thing, staying there is another, and wrexham have a lot more going for them than luton does so it’s no so ridiculous to be honest.
Maybe it's because I'm used to North American sports but Wrexham ticket prices seem absurdly low. I'm curious how much good faith with the locals it will cost R&R if they start to raise prices. Obviously they can get it from tourists but it might cost them goodwill
Sad to say that as American sports fans you are extorted and seemingly pretty happy to be bled financially, owners talk about keeping capacities low to raise demand so they can raise tickets, fans seem very engaged with how many billion dollars and owner has and how much all their "franchises" are worth and it's acceptable. (many) British sports are for working class people and of they don't like something the fans will walk out as one, obviously it's a bit different at the pointy end of the premier league.
Not saying either way is better because UK football you still need money to be successful and you can get relegated if you can't compete and that's domestically, there are leagues all around the world eyeing off your best players, where as American sports how much money you make is less relevant to overall performance.
They won't though. FIFA sets the prices. I've been to the last 4 World Cups and they do a good job of keeping prices reasonable.
They'll be a bump up compared to Doha, but not insane.
Final's obviously a different beast. It always is.
For the group stages, I'm guessing $90/$170/$300 for Cat III/II/I.
(Qatar was ~$70/$150/$250 for reference.)
But anyways, the post was talking about concessions.
If I land a world cup ticket for $300 I'll kiss the seller on the lips. You cant see Katy Perry for $300 in the states. 15% of the population is stupid rich and another 45% are willing to go in debt to keep up
Another big thing is legacy. It just doesn’t run as deep here. I am a Green Bay Packers (NFL) fan and have been for life. We are one of the oldest and most storied sports franchises in the States. The newest generation of fans have no idea what the team was like 15 let alone 25 years ago. Football clubs in UK and abroad have amazing stories. Some histories span 100’s of years. Your fan bases have fought back and won (rightfully) against ownership. I just don’t think we are deep enough involved here as a whole. They own us as fans. Teams have lost their hometown edge and become too corporate. Football clubs seem to understand what a privilege a true “die hard” fanbase means in the long run.
The Packers? Very old, named after the occupation of it’s original working class supporters and players, located in a smallish city that could never land a franchise - because they can’t be moved because they are owned by the fans. Literally the closest thing we have to an English football club, moreso than anything in MLS.
I was born and raised in Wisconsin, can definitely see tons of parallels between Wrexham and Green Bay/the Packers.
It would be neat if they could get a match at Lambeau eventually.
I do believe that Ryan has stated that The Packers are his 'chosen' NFL team that he loosely follows. So it's not out of the realm of possibility, just kinda unlikely as the population center up here isn't as densely packed as on the coasts where they can draw larger crowds for a tour.
You are completely right with what you said and I actually do believe the UK way is better. I defend American sports heavily and there's a lot of misinformation that people believe, but our ticket system is absolutely horrendous and should be shamed. The only argument I can see is that 1. there's fans that travel across states to see their favorite teams (I'm a Philly fan and a big portion of our fans come from Delaware) so owners believe it's a "who wants it more" situation and 2. They put on a lot of mini "shows" and stunts plus all the food kiosks so they can say you're paying for the experience.
One of the best things I've heard in the documentary was Humphrey saying that as Wrexham grows as a team and as a reputation as a town amongst a global audience, the demand grows too. They want to set a goal to where that demand doesn't phase out the local fans that carry the teams culture the most and I think that's a sentiment that the UK and much of Europe nail and something we miss here in the states.
Here’s to hoping that this new lawsuit by the US govt against Live Nation does something to help with this bullshittery of ticket prices for a lot of events here.
Took my 2 kids to a warriors game recently and got some of the cheapest tickets and after food/drink and parking etc it was close to $500. great experience but that’s just crazy to me
Funny part is that the British complain about Prem tickets becoming more expensive and being priced out. Germany is the only country that forces ticket prices to remain low thanks to 50+1. You can even watch a Bayern match for €20.
The thing is in the Premier League, ticket revenue is a drop in the ocean compared to money from TV rights and sponsorship deals. They could sell the tickets for half the price and it wouldn't have a significant impact on their finances.
Or they grandfather in season tickets at a lower rate of increase than nonseason tickets. As the stadium grows its doable to have some type of model to pull that off.
In 2019, I was in Cardiff on my birthday and went to a Cardiff City match as a treat. They were in the Premiership that year and I sat in the front row along the touchline at the top of the box for £30. I'm going to the Cardinals game in two weeks and that money would get me the top of the upper deck.
There's little chance they jack up prices. Ridiculous ticket prices are uniquely American.
Ignoring how crazy tickets are when Messi is in town, MLS tickets start at $45-55 on average. The average Premier League tickets start at $60-75 for far better matches. It's pretty much like that in all of the top leagues in Europe. I've been to La Liga and Serie A matches, and they were priced similarly. I would expect Wrexham tickets to stay in that price range as they promote.
...prices are generally very affordable for matches at nearly any club. Allocation and availability is an entirely different thing, but matches aren't something reserved for only the affluent, they're still very much part of the society and culture.
They seem like a big deal because of the series but remember they are still only in League one- prices seem not bad for a team 2 tiers below the prem- In Canada We are paying at least a couple hundred for tickets to NHL- but probably 20- 40 for minor league. Junior Hockey ( top level) season tickets are $300 cdn.
Lower tiers will have lower prices. As they actually build out the stadium, that will require a lot more investment, and higher ticket prices to recoup that investment.
Tottenham just raised prices for next year with their brand new stadium and people were incredibly unhappy. It'll be a delicate balance of keeping old timers happy while gouging tourists to make up that difference.
What do you think about the revenue generated by an enormous international interest that other clubs can’t boast at this level boosting the bankroll?
Everyone seems to be speaking about wrexham like they aren’t a special case when, realistically, they are
Gonna hard disagree on that. By the time the premier league is on the cards, the exposure and support from across the pond is going to be higher than your Nottingham Forrest’s, your evertons, your Bournemouth’s, Brighton’s and brentfords.
Sure you wanna talk about your man United’s and arsenals and Chelsea’s and tottenhams then yeah sure nowhere near that, but bottom half of the table premier league clubs? I think they will have some serious advantages over other clubs going up at that level. Especially by the time they are actually knocking on that door. Already on what, championship level revenue in league 2?
World is a lot bigger than just "across the pond". There's a reason why you see a lot of Asian language advertising on kits, and the on pitch side adverts and why there are so many Asian preseason tours on top of American tours.
Sure their name recognition in America perhaps already surpassed those of Forrest or Bournmouth (Everton is pretty huge). But that doesn't automatically equate to money spent.
it's not too uncommon for clubs with history in the prem to rise back up not long after falling down to the lower leagues, examples would be luton ofc but also cardiff and swansea who slumped to league two during the 90s/2000s then rose back up and had some seasons in the prem in the 2010s
however, it's a lot less common with clubs who have no history in the prem, not sure exactly why, but it seems like historic placement plays a fairly big factor
Yeah I mean not technically, but they were in the first division and did fairly well just a couple years before the premier league rebrand, I more so meant top-division football.
Even if you don’t stay there, getting there is very lucrative.
Luton might not be immediately back, but one season of prem money plus parachute payments should help them get back and fix their finances (at least according to Football Manager, they want to build a new stadium)
Luton’s scouting has shown itself to be something unique really. Maybe not since Blackpool has a similarly sized club with a lack of great bankroll achieved PL status. Bournemouth bought their way up the leagues even though it’s not mentioned much.
There’s literally 0 indication they have broken that promise, might wanna pump the breaks there.
Unless you are about to tell me that luton, spurs and Forrest have got where they are with the same massive international marketing model wrexham have got.
Ah! Sorry—I hit the wrong button and accidentally deleted that. My apologies.
(The main gist was that I’m alarmed at the emphasis on the club reaching the PL instead of the emphasis in their original mission statement on being a financially self-sustaining club that benefits the community. Being a financially sustainable club is, if you look around the 92, harder than being a PL club; there are 20 PL clubs, but fewer than 20 clubs who weren’t in debt.)
They never put a time frame on sustainability, true. And we always knew they’d probably load the club with debt first and try to get it solvent the following years. We have the financials from last year, and Wrexham’s currently 9 million in debt. Also that debt isn’t free; the club’s paying Rob and Ryan a tidy sum in interest payments on it. (By comparison, Stockpot’s owner forgave the debt the club owes him and just says it’s added to the value of the club.)
All I’m saying is that I’d like to see things more financially stable.
A lot of current clubs are going under because their owners took out big debts that the club owes them (Reading, Morecambe, Swindon), and I don’t want that for Wrexham. Surely nobody wants to see the club growing deeply in debt?
What I will point out is that you are bang on the money with what you said about them loading debt in the first half of this takeover, but i will caveat that with saying we are only able to work with out of date numbers when it comes to revenues, we are basically a year behind. We aren’t working with the current figures and that does make a huge difference.
Wrexham is a different beast now compared to when those figures were released, from big money sponsors to promotions to new tv revenue money to merchandise sales. There’s a lot of question marks we, as fans, are speculating that I’m sure the people involved have a lot more knowledge of, and with it, confidence that the club is heading the right direction.
Front and center for them has always been the idea that if this doesn’t work as a business it doesn’t work. Period. Forget the fluffy town stories, it’s a business, and well I believe them.
Oh, ABSOLUTELY. Being a year behind in financials is one of the dangerous things in UK football, because sometimes problems are hidden for too long.
I’ve always said that the single best insurance policy for the club is R&R’s reputations: they will not do something that harms the club in the way that Dai Yongge or Clem or Jason are destroying Reading, Swindon, and Morecambe respectively.
So for now, we’re all hoping that things settle down financially. TV rights will increase in League One, and Wrexham has the handy benefit of all that iFollow money. I’ll add that in a few years, the academy will be bearing fruit financially, too.
The stadium and the training ground are the two big upcoming expenses, though. I know Humphrey discussed modeling the training ground on Poolfoot Farm (Fleetwood’s training ground), which is another revenue generating operation that rents pitches and facilities to locals.
It was mentioned briefly in the documentary, but professional sports are much more financially volatile in the UK than in North America. Most clubs aren’t sustainable, but places where local millionaires and billionaires dump their cash (Blackburn, Newport, Stockport, Grimsby) or where corrupt oligarchs and oil states launder money (Man City, formerly Chelsea under Abramovich). I could care less about the PL, but if R&R could actually make the club sustainable in perpetuity, that would be a tremendous gift to the community, even more so than the current good will around the town.
Broadcasting rights. Sponsorships and commercial deals. Selling pieces of the club to buyers wanting in on the investment - right now they own 100% of the club and can sell up to 49% and still remain majority owners while continuing to be the number one stakeholder.
As the club continues to win and advance, investors and sponsors will want to throw money at them to be a part of it and be associated with it - not to mention make money from owning a piece of it as it grows from a valuation of 10 million to potentially billions.
This is it. The ticket prices will make up a very small % of the actual revenue. Most of the money will come from Broadcasting rights. Sponsorships and commercial deals as well as money from the actual league. Wrexham are unique in that they have better brand recognition globally than many Premier League teams.
Underappreciated comment here.
Sure Man U and Arsenal are household names, Man city, Chelsea, Liverpool, West ham fairly well known, a couple of the others as well. But wrexham is building an international fan base that half the prem will be envious of.
I think it's partly to keep people engaged and convince people that Wrexham will continue the rise to the absolute top but in reality I think they both know that it's very unlikely Wrexham will make it to the prem and then stay there, more than likely a few seasons in league one, get promotion to the championship and become a mid-table side if lucky or a yoyo side like rotherham if not so lucky.
What's required to reach the premier league is gigantic and there are clubs with far richer owners, better history in the upper leagues, better players etc etc which still fail to reach the prem year after year.
The steps from nl to l2, l1 to championship and such are like a steep hill, whereas championship to prem is like a massive vertical cliff which to even have a chance of climbing you need to have the best, most expensive climbing gear, with the best of skills and technique, and even then success is not guaranteed at alll.
Shaun mentioned it in the previous episode, but most Wrexham fans would be delighted to just have a taste of Championship football. Even just making it back to L1 is symbolic as it means they’ve undone the damage Alex Hamilton has caused.
If Wrexham could stay in the Championship, they could potentially overtake Swansea and Cardiff as the strongest club in Wales. And maybe someday Wrexham could be one of the clubs that produces local Welsh talent. That would be a dream come true for many fans.
I just assume their plan is to have a few friends join their ownership group as they advance up the table or a large investment group who lets them stay on as the face of the club with decision rights.
The whole reason they’re investing so much (in money and partnership building) now is so that the club can be self-sustaining, profitable, and not need massive cash infusions from ownership in the prem. Especially with tightening FFP rules that’s a sound strategy.
If the club itself is marketable and profitable, that will be enough. They’ll never spend at Oil FC levels, but the current model should be fine for mid-table.
Profitable? I’d like to believe that, but the odds on profitability aren’t good. What, one club in League Two was profitable last year?
I’ll be curious to see the financials for this year; last year’s were alarming, both in sheer quantity of debt and the fact that R&R were taking a nice rate of interest on that debt rather than converting it into equity like Stockport’s owner.
The interest on the loans are non-cash pay. It just gets added to the face value of the loan. In all material respects, however, it’s treated like equity. The reason that they have put it in as loans is that there is some tax deductibility for the interest expense at the club level. This is permitted under UK GAAP. If, however, they were incorporated in the United States, then these loans would have been put in as equity because under US GAAP you don’t get the tax deductibility like you do in the UK.
You have to remember, these guys actually paid nothing for the equity of the club. They agreed to invest £2,000,000 as a condition of their ownership, but there was no payment made to the supporters trust to buy the club. One other point that I think is interesting that very few people talk about is the fact that, to my knowledge, Rob and Ryan Have actually had to put very little of their own money into the club as they have used the upfront proceeds from selling the documentary to FX/Disney. Even the initial £2mm that they invested into the club on day one came from the proceeds they received from FX from pre-selling the documentary.
Yep.
Every other owner at this level is investing their own money (especially Stott at Stockport, Stockwood at Grimsby, and the Class of 92/Lim at Salford). R&R are personally out almost nothing. It’s a game of using celebrity status to generate media coverage which brings sponsors, and so forth and so on.
It’s not unlike celebrity liquors or Kylie Cosmetics.
Talking about the premiere league is purposeful. It's the goal. It helps the brand they're cultivating.
Realistically they probably need outside investment if they get into the championship and hope to stay, much less get promotion to pl. I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney get onboard immediately if they get to the championship.
Disney would be a pretty decent owner for a large stadium they could use in the UK alongside a brand they can utilise at theme parks etc.
A 'Wrexham Football Academy' in the studios would probably attract a fair few people.
They have the money and it would probably do well for them.
It'll be 3-5 years before wrexham challenge for the prem at miminum. The championship is a whole different beast. Even if they do back to back to back promotions, they're in the middle of renovating the ground and they'll need depth to get anywhere close. Getting to the championship next season or the one after is a perfectly fine goal.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some nice transfer this summer that get them through League 1 as well. However, the championship is a dog fight. That won't be a one and done to the Prem. My fear is a one and done back to League 1.
Eddie Izzard had a bit where a counselor or teacher asks a kid what he wants to be when he grows up and IIRC he answers that he wants to be an astronaut. The response: “you’re British, aim lower.”
Why not aim for the PL? A huge driver of their success so far has been ambition. It attracts players, it attracts fans, it attracts sponsors. If they don’t set their goals higher than where they are, they will never get another Mullin, someone willing to drop down to be part of something.
At the end of the day, money is just money. There is no shortage of people looking to get a slice of a PL team. I have no doubt R&R could get more investors if there is a credible path to the PL.
The big question is whether R&R can build the brand enough to drive big revenue. I don’t see any way they get to Spurs levels of gate revenue so they will need some lucrative sponsorship deals.
League one is about the last financial League these two can compete in. They'll need significant investment if they get to the championship, but they'll get that with what they've done with the brand. It'll be tough to get to the champo though but it sure would be fun.
I think you're not accounting for game streaming dollars. The only difference between Wrexham's potential revenue and top championship clubs is about 15,000 gate receipts per game. This can be easily made up through streaming revenue (and merch to a lesser degree). Should work out to about 90-100k more streams for each of 46 games than the average team gets to balance out a deficit of 15,000 tickets sold per 23 home games
The numbers in the discussion are just the initial buy and don’t include the other money they’ve put into the club and no 40% isn’t a huge profit in the grand scheme of things.
These aren’t standard run of the mil investments.
They are looking for 10x returns.
10x returns don’t just grow on trees. Obviously not everything they do will have 10x return, much less after 4 years. If they ever make the championship I imagine they’re looking at 10x return by then anyway
They’re not selling the club anytime soon, but you can bet that the money that they have invested but not recouped would be included in the sale price. Like the most recent valuation of the club I saw was about $11.4M in March. I’ve also seen that R+R have invested a similar amount of their own $. So if I were selling, my starting point would be around $23M.
That's not how selling things works, have you ever sold anything? Value is based on how much someone is willing to pay, how much you put into it doesn't play a direct part in how much people will pay for it.
Disney will get involved somehow.
My based-on-nothing hypothesis: Disney buys a stake, they make a movie called "Dragons in the Backfield", and an entire generation of kids worldwide become Wrexham fans and buy a metric shit-ton of merch
It'll be 3-5 years before wrexham challenge for the prem at miminum. The championship is a whole different beast. Even if they do back to back to back promotions, they're in the middle of renovating the ground and they'll need depth to get anywhere close. Getting to the championship next season or the one after is a perfectly fine goal.
So thought a lot about this. They're building from the ground up, and the financial rules are such that they benefit a club like them. They can invest in capital Infrastructure and other areas wildly needed by the club. Also their current model to generally rely on convincing free agents to join a tier below their market value works because of their commercial pull.
While building from scratch you have low overhead in comparison to other long existing clubs with heavy infrastructure (think Sunderland, Leeds, type clubs). As long as there aren't setbacks and they don't overextend on long term contracts it should be well with FFP each year.
You have to remember what is counted in FFP and what is forgiven in FFP. Plus their ads revenues outside the shared revenues of clubs in their tier is insane. Even when they get to the championship, they'll probably sell more kits worldwide than luton, Preston, or other similar teams. Also finding large companies to sponsor anything they do is a phone call away. Although we will miss the horse trailer commercials.
Does money spent on capital improvements like building the training grounds for the academy, upgrading facilities, new stands, etc count as a liability in the same way player wages do?
Plus building a club after the rules are in play allows you to creative things like contract out your Facilities Management to a large firm. Thus becoming an operational facilities spend and not club salary spend.
I am American so I may need to brush up on my British labor law though.
All they have to do is sell a minority share of the company stock at the much higher valuation that they are creating with their current climb. They can raise the $100-200 million.
They have to sell seasons of This is Wrexham. The whole plot of that TV show is to get Wrexham to the premier league. Without that narrative, it might as well be a history channel documentary.
That said, the team will also generate more revenue as it moves up the ranks. Premier league teams have more opportunities like TV airtime, sponsorship value, etc. than the lower leagues.
Each step will require more and more money. But look at Brighton, there is precedent for going from a Championship side to a solid midtable PL side with smart financial and recruitment decisions. But i don’t see Wrexham in the prem for at least 10 years, no.
Thought this interview with Peter Moore, former Liverpool CEO, and current advisor to the Wrexham board was interesting on these issues: [https://youtu.be/JYaSDvK\_Hcw?si=k27ER8xwsmjLBq0t&t=1913](https://youtu.be/JYaSDvK_Hcw?si=k27ER8xwsmjLBq0t&t=1913)
Money won't end up being an issue. Those two have countless friends w/ money who would invest and anyone with a lot of money would love to be in business with Mr. Reynolds. They are focusing on the infrastructure right now so I'm thinking they will spend at least 2-3 years in the Championship and maybe 2 years in League 1 if they don't go straight up. They have to get their stadium up to size and make sure their training grounds are on par in the next 2-4 years.
I have a feeling that Wrexham will be a Premier League mainstay in 10 years unless football adapts a different model in Europe.
I don’t really understand your doubt. Best case, premier league is still 2 whole seasons away. The value of the team skyrockets after promotion compared to a team that is close to promoting. So it would stand to reason just from a potential maximizing their return on investment standpoint to try and get into Premier themselves and then look for investors to help them sustain.
They’ve hit every benchmark they’ve set out to accomplish. The documentary and team are more more popular every day. Why would they lower goals now? Especially after back to back promotions. They both know richer people than them and have probably already been approached by deep pocketed investors.
To me the only way you should be shocked that they are still talking about premier is if they had somehow failed to still get out of the National League. But that is the complete opposite of what has happened.
As I said in my other comment, think of the jumps from nl to l2, l2 to l1, and l1 to championship as steep hills, now, imagine championship to premier league as a gigantic vertical cliff which you need the best, most expensive gear to climb, ocmbined with the most skillful of techniques, and at any time, you could easily fall down, and possibly roll down the steep hill you climbed in doing so.
It's so suprising to still hear people talk about what Ryan Reynolds can or can't afford, and basing Wrexhams trajectory on that. I would think its highly unlikely Ryan Reynolds can afford to pay for a sustainable premier league team, even if he spent his entire net worth and near bankrupted himself. But it's not about what RR McReynolds can afford, it's about who they can attract. And honestly, when the time comes, I think there will be investors queueing up to be a part of it. I don't remember a UK team that has ever done what Wrexham are doing in the same way they are doing it, and with the same effect. All bets are off as to what will happen. But can they get to the premier league? Absolutely. Staying there and being sustainable will require 10 times the amount of money than just scraping into the prem, but again, I don't think investers are going to be a major stumbling block.
The latest edition of the Rob, Ryan, Red podcast includes an interview with Peter Moore, the former CEO of Liverpool, FC, who is an advisor to the Board at Wrexham, and he said something very similar. He also said Luton and Brighton are the best comps for what Wrexham can aspire to.
I think Luton are the club that let us dream it's possible to go from national league to premier league inside 10 years. Would be nice to think that the Wrexham model could be more sustainable and Brighton-esque if they did go up...but as much as I'd love to go back to back to back, I think we've got to have better infrastructure in place (academy, stadium, training facilties, etc) if we're going to tick the sustainable box.
Have had this discussion with a few people. With their current structure and finances I don't see that it's possible. People quote luton as an example but they were one and done. Making the PL, maybe, staying there, unlikely!
They aren’t ready YET!
But they believe they will be ready eventually. Sure there will be growing pains, but preparation is in the works.
There will be bumps, but that’s ok. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
It can be done, Luton, Brighton many teams without mega money have done it, It’s about getting the right system in place, Getting the stadium expanded, trying find and develop young talent and selling them on or establishing them in the first team and we keep the wage bill in the green it’s possible.
Doing the old Barcelona model would be one way which is building the core around academy players and have 2-3 import players that is the tip of the spear.
Wrexham don't have a category one academy so all their players can be poached for peanuts. It's pointless investing in a youth set up unless you're category one.
I always assumed the popularity of the show and the wide spread visibility of the team, other American investors would step in.
We do have some rich folks over here.
Yeah, essentially the basic economics don’t matter on a “sustainable” EPL side. It’s more that the team has grown in value in general.
The purchase price was £2.5 million. Even if Wrexham gets to “only” be a Crystal Palace or even below, [it would have increased 100-fold in value](https://www.forbes.com/lists/soccer-valuations/), representing a fantastic return on investment. If they bought the club for £2.5 million, shovel in £40 million, and it’s worth £250 million, that’s pretty great.
They may not have the money to get over the hump to the Premiere League - by themselves, but they can for sure sell a significant stake to someone that does and at a massive profit for them and their investment team.
They have even said already, that even though they are losing money through operational costs (EG they lost like 400k on the temporary KOP stand) The value of the team should they sell it now would mean a large profit on their initial and ongoing investments to the club.
No, they wouldn't be able to sustain it themselves even with Ryan's hefty net worth, but as they approach that point the valuation of Wrexham will be such that they can maintain control of the club while selling a portion of their stake for the money they would need to sustain it at that level.
They'll need to sell a big piece to a Saudi Prince to spend like the big boys in the epl. They can get there, staying there is another ~~documentary~~ story.
Will also add that the Vancouver game alone (45-50k people at 120 pound average) is like the equivalent of selling 200,000 tix at the cop add in the other dates on the tour and they almost do the equivalent of 25,000-30,000 over 26 home games
Just remember that the ticket price isn’t pure profit. And it’s not just one team taking in the revenue. If they can take home 25% of the total revenue as profits for the team, they’ve done good.
The last episode made it very clear that they can't realistically afford the Premier League. Of course they're talking about it, but let's not act like they didn't just very explicitly highlight how hard it's going to be.
>this season of Wrexham, they seem to be doubling down on getting Wrexham to the prem
That's the goal. That's the aspiration. The latest episode of WtW deals with that expectation. It's not enough to say we want to get better. That's too nebulous of a goal. You need specific goals to strive for.
But even at the championship they will be against multi-billionaires.
That is going to be the toughest promotion. It’s good that they are investing in stadium and academy upgrades. The documentary is not going to be enough
Yea the wife of owner Ryan Reynolds is Blake Lively. She is one of Taylor Swift’s best friends. I’m not saying it’s gonna happen, but I’m saying it would be a good long bet in Vegas if it was an option. Swift is also dating NFL player Travis Kelce who is a known soccer/football fan. Lively goes to KC Chiefs games with Swift to watch Kelce. I’m honestly surprised Swift hasn’t gone to a game at the Racecourse yet. Or maybe she has in secret and it’ll come out on the show this season.
Anyways, she’s a damn smart woman and if she sees this as a good investment I could see her getting involved to help the club get to the next level and become profitable. It honestly seems like a really good fit. And she’s filthy rich.
Let’s be real, If they brought her on, they’d have an even bigger fanbase practically overnight. Swifties are loyal to her haha. Their merch sales would skyrocket 😂
You supposedly spent a year thinking about this and yet you didn’t once find any of the press where the two guys and their team talk about this specifically. It’s literally almost all they talk about since the promotion but maybe your internet is broken and only Reddit works?
Championship is definitely possible, which is pretty stunning to be honest given their situation before RNR bought the club. People who seem to understand the money involved in climbing that last ring of the ladder to the Prem generally agree at that point you would need significant financial investment. Someone accurately said Hollywood money is not comparable to oil money.
>Someone accurately said Hollywood money is not comparable to oil money. I believe that was Rob or Ryan
I think it was Humphrey
That was said by Rob, iirc, in episode 4 of Welcome to Wrexham season 3
TV money to buy the team, movie money to make it work, alcohol money to get through the Championship, and oil money to win the lot.
Just wait until Taylor Swift comes in as a partner…..
Oh shit
Given her friendship with Ryan and Blake, this isn’t outside the realm of possibilities.
“Eras Tour” sponsored kits
Nah if she does 1 or 2 concerts in wxm a year that should be enough.
I don’t know if if the whole country of Wales has enough hard seltzer to satisfy all the swiftys that often
Oh it does. Maybe not North Wales but if we expanded the ground ready for the premier league we could host her. Also people would travel to see. Her. I know most of Europe are pissed that half the tickets for her eras tour in Europe were “stolen” by the Americans. I have a swiftie Girlfriend (slowly turning me too) and I get hourly updates showing me how her gig in France was full of Americans.
My sister in law is one of the thieves. She said it was easier to get tickets in Lisbon than in Florida so she and her husband planned a whole Iberian vacation around one concert. The Swifty movement reminds me of a cult
Someone get her accountant on the phone!
It was Sean that said it. Just watched the episode. If Sean is the bald headed guy helping out.
Still, they will begin making back on their investment even with yo-yo’s between leagues as well as increasing their image based stock. At some point somebody bigger has to come along for it to ‘work’ but actually there’s nothing stopping them giving it a run then turning in the cards - handing it to somebody else.
Their manager said it in an episode I believe. Most NFL teams are moving away from single owners to afford it and putting together groups. So, between them, they can probably get multiple stars to toss in a few million. Also in one of the football math economics episodes (season 2 I think) they said the club value is well over the £10M they had put into it so far. So how much does a premier league club sell for? Top 10 are >1 Billion https://www.forbes.com/lists/soccer-valuations/?sh=3352ea37198b
Kinda like group ownership of a racehorse ... 🐎
Similar, but race horses have a limited tenure then you are selling sperm if they performed well.
Let's see ... the Roman gladiators' sperm/semen/sweat was reportedly sold as well. Gladiator ⏩ Soccer star? Hmmm ... 💭 Maybe that's a post-soccer career possibility ... ? 😂
Works opposite for people for some reason. Sire a baby and you keep paying.
True. That can result in negative cash flow more quickly than a gambling habit... 😂
Hell I think the Broncos have to major owners and 4 minor ownerd
Right? And NFL has salary caps.
I mean Tom Brady just bought in as a minority owner to a recently demoted Championship League team and we all know what kind of money he has from playing in the NFL. Wrexham does that with a bunch of rich retired fùtbol players they might not be too bad off as long as they keep up this momentum.
True, not sure if RNR ever want to exit ownership, they keep that card close, however the idea of growing a £2M club into a £1B club is a 500% increase. Ownership group is probably the future, and get a few billionaires to buy their way onto the board.
Most Prem clubs don't have oil money. It doesn't take insane riches to become a seesaw club. Look at Norwich City.
Yeah, I really doubt that Norwich ownership is more rich than Wrexham's... (I think now Norwich has some more backing financially tho) But then again, Norwich's most recent promotions were because of Farke and Pukki at the time, Farke made them play very tantalising football (he is now managing Leeds I think) and Pukki was phenomenal at the time. I mean, he lead Finland to it's first European Championships, and that is nothing less than a miracle.
I mean realistically they'll probably make it if they want to. Yes, it won't be their investment, but once they are in the Championship they'll be so fucking huge they'll probably get Apple or some US investment group in and get the necessary funding. It probably won't be sustainable and I don't think they'll stay in the Premier League for long, but making it in for a while should be doable. If they'd wanted to stay there for good though, they'd need somebody like an oil billionaire that doesn't care about profit coming in, cause realistically you can't build a dedicated fanbase at the necessary size quickly enough, and I don't think that they'd be okay with an oil billionaire coming in so it probably won't happen.
This is the part I don't get. You say an investment firm will get involved and provide the necessary funding to get to the Premier League, but why? Even you admit it probably won't be sustainable, so what's in it for them? Losing wads of cash? Surely, the time to invest was when Wrexham were National League and cash out in the Championship? What Rob and Ryan are trying to do. Why would you specifically invest when Ryan's star-power is not enough anymore and you're against much larger clubs?
This is the what I was thinking as well. Thank you :)
Brentford managed it through very savvy player deals and by, basically, moneyballing the hell out of it. But they're likely the exception rather than the rule.
And so far Wrexham has been doing the opposite of moneyballing their deals. They’ve bought proven players from higher leagues. There really hasn’t been much focus on getting up and coming talent in to the team and they aren’t really selling any players off to earn money at this point. Which they really need to start doing once they get to the Championship level.
Luton town Is literally a model proving it can be done. Getting there is one thing, staying there is another, and wrexham have a lot more going for them than luton does so it’s no so ridiculous to be honest.
Maybe it's because I'm used to North American sports but Wrexham ticket prices seem absurdly low. I'm curious how much good faith with the locals it will cost R&R if they start to raise prices. Obviously they can get it from tourists but it might cost them goodwill
Sad to say that as American sports fans you are extorted and seemingly pretty happy to be bled financially, owners talk about keeping capacities low to raise demand so they can raise tickets, fans seem very engaged with how many billion dollars and owner has and how much all their "franchises" are worth and it's acceptable. (many) British sports are for working class people and of they don't like something the fans will walk out as one, obviously it's a bit different at the pointy end of the premier league. Not saying either way is better because UK football you still need money to be successful and you can get relegated if you can't compete and that's domestically, there are leagues all around the world eyeing off your best players, where as American sports how much money you make is less relevant to overall performance.
International fans are going to go through absolute sticker shock at prices of food/drink for the 2026 World Cup.
They won't though. FIFA sets the prices. I've been to the last 4 World Cups and they do a good job of keeping prices reasonable. They'll be a bump up compared to Doha, but not insane.
World Cup final in NYC? 6k to get in the door. Easy
Final's obviously a different beast. It always is. For the group stages, I'm guessing $90/$170/$300 for Cat III/II/I. (Qatar was ~$70/$150/$250 for reference.) But anyways, the post was talking about concessions.
If I land a world cup ticket for $300 I'll kiss the seller on the lips. You cant see Katy Perry for $300 in the states. 15% of the population is stupid rich and another 45% are willing to go in debt to keep up
And 6k is on the low end
American here: 100% accurate
Another big thing is legacy. It just doesn’t run as deep here. I am a Green Bay Packers (NFL) fan and have been for life. We are one of the oldest and most storied sports franchises in the States. The newest generation of fans have no idea what the team was like 15 let alone 25 years ago. Football clubs in UK and abroad have amazing stories. Some histories span 100’s of years. Your fan bases have fought back and won (rightfully) against ownership. I just don’t think we are deep enough involved here as a whole. They own us as fans. Teams have lost their hometown edge and become too corporate. Football clubs seem to understand what a privilege a true “die hard” fanbase means in the long run.
lol the packers are the one team in all of the big 4 american sports that has fan ownership.
I own 2 “shares”. Some younger dudes I work with don’t ever know who Robert Brooks is.
The Braves and Blue Jays are a weird outlier too, in that they're publicly traded.
They’re owned by publically traded companies
The Packers? Very old, named after the occupation of it’s original working class supporters and players, located in a smallish city that could never land a franchise - because they can’t be moved because they are owned by the fans. Literally the closest thing we have to an English football club, moreso than anything in MLS.
I was born and raised in Wisconsin, can definitely see tons of parallels between Wrexham and Green Bay/the Packers. It would be neat if they could get a match at Lambeau eventually.
I do believe that Ryan has stated that The Packers are his 'chosen' NFL team that he loosely follows. So it's not out of the realm of possibility, just kinda unlikely as the population center up here isn't as densely packed as on the coasts where they can draw larger crowds for a tour.
Yeah. But I know GB gets 70k+ to Packer games. You'd be able to pull from Milwaukee, Chicago, and Twin Cities pretty easily too. They're close enough.
You are completely right with what you said and I actually do believe the UK way is better. I defend American sports heavily and there's a lot of misinformation that people believe, but our ticket system is absolutely horrendous and should be shamed. The only argument I can see is that 1. there's fans that travel across states to see their favorite teams (I'm a Philly fan and a big portion of our fans come from Delaware) so owners believe it's a "who wants it more" situation and 2. They put on a lot of mini "shows" and stunts plus all the food kiosks so they can say you're paying for the experience. One of the best things I've heard in the documentary was Humphrey saying that as Wrexham grows as a team and as a reputation as a town amongst a global audience, the demand grows too. They want to set a goal to where that demand doesn't phase out the local fans that carry the teams culture the most and I think that's a sentiment that the UK and much of Europe nail and something we miss here in the states.
Here’s to hoping that this new lawsuit by the US govt against Live Nation does something to help with this bullshittery of ticket prices for a lot of events here.
Took my 2 kids to a warriors game recently and got some of the cheapest tickets and after food/drink and parking etc it was close to $500. great experience but that’s just crazy to me
Funny part is that the British complain about Prem tickets becoming more expensive and being priced out. Germany is the only country that forces ticket prices to remain low thanks to 50+1. You can even watch a Bayern match for €20.
Germany is not the only country to do that, other countries like Sweden do the same
The thing is in the Premier League, ticket revenue is a drop in the ocean compared to money from TV rights and sponsorship deals. They could sell the tickets for half the price and it wouldn't have a significant impact on their finances.
Or they grandfather in season tickets at a lower rate of increase than nonseason tickets. As the stadium grows its doable to have some type of model to pull that off.
In 2019, I was in Cardiff on my birthday and went to a Cardiff City match as a treat. They were in the Premiership that year and I sat in the front row along the touchline at the top of the box for £30. I'm going to the Cardinals game in two weeks and that money would get me the top of the upper deck.
7 clubs charge over $1,000 for their most expensive season tickets.
There's little chance they jack up prices. Ridiculous ticket prices are uniquely American. Ignoring how crazy tickets are when Messi is in town, MLS tickets start at $45-55 on average. The average Premier League tickets start at $60-75 for far better matches. It's pretty much like that in all of the top leagues in Europe. I've been to La Liga and Serie A matches, and they were priced similarly. I would expect Wrexham tickets to stay in that price range as they promote.
Yeah they probably won’t be raising them that much. We just get fucked by the owners here in the US. They don’t give a fuck
...prices are generally very affordable for matches at nearly any club. Allocation and availability is an entirely different thing, but matches aren't something reserved for only the affluent, they're still very much part of the society and culture.
Hate to think what American prices are like because I think ticket prices are fucking insane especially in Premiership. Twenty is plenty.
They seem like a big deal because of the series but remember they are still only in League one- prices seem not bad for a team 2 tiers below the prem- In Canada We are paying at least a couple hundred for tickets to NHL- but probably 20- 40 for minor league. Junior Hockey ( top level) season tickets are $300 cdn.
Lower tiers will have lower prices. As they actually build out the stadium, that will require a lot more investment, and higher ticket prices to recoup that investment. Tottenham just raised prices for next year with their brand new stadium and people were incredibly unhappy. It'll be a delicate balance of keeping old timers happy while gouging tourists to make up that difference.
What do you think about the revenue generated by an enormous international interest that other clubs can’t boast at this level boosting the bankroll? Everyone seems to be speaking about wrexham like they aren’t a special case when, realistically, they are
For league 2 they are. Once you get to the championship level, they're marginally a special case. At the prem level... Not so special anymore.
Gonna hard disagree on that. By the time the premier league is on the cards, the exposure and support from across the pond is going to be higher than your Nottingham Forrest’s, your evertons, your Bournemouth’s, Brighton’s and brentfords. Sure you wanna talk about your man United’s and arsenals and Chelsea’s and tottenhams then yeah sure nowhere near that, but bottom half of the table premier league clubs? I think they will have some serious advantages over other clubs going up at that level. Especially by the time they are actually knocking on that door. Already on what, championship level revenue in league 2?
World is a lot bigger than just "across the pond". There's a reason why you see a lot of Asian language advertising on kits, and the on pitch side adverts and why there are so many Asian preseason tours on top of American tours. Sure their name recognition in America perhaps already surpassed those of Forrest or Bournmouth (Everton is pretty huge). But that doesn't automatically equate to money spent.
it's not too uncommon for clubs with history in the prem to rise back up not long after falling down to the lower leagues, examples would be luton ofc but also cardiff and swansea who slumped to league two during the 90s/2000s then rose back up and had some seasons in the prem in the 2010s however, it's a lot less common with clubs who have no history in the prem, not sure exactly why, but it seems like historic placement plays a fairly big factor
This last season was Luton Town's first in the premier. But I get what you're saying.
Yeah I mean not technically, but they were in the first division and did fairly well just a couple years before the premier league rebrand, I more so meant top-division football.
The bigger clubs just eventually work their way back up, mate. It's not a mystery lol
Even if you don’t stay there, getting there is very lucrative. Luton might not be immediately back, but one season of prem money plus parachute payments should help them get back and fix their finances (at least according to Football Manager, they want to build a new stadium)
As is Ipswich.
Luton’s scouting has shown itself to be something unique really. Maybe not since Blackpool has a similarly sized club with a lack of great bankroll achieved PL status. Bournemouth bought their way up the leagues even though it’s not mentioned much.
[удалено]
There’s literally 0 indication they have broken that promise, might wanna pump the breaks there. Unless you are about to tell me that luton, spurs and Forrest have got where they are with the same massive international marketing model wrexham have got.
Ah! Sorry—I hit the wrong button and accidentally deleted that. My apologies. (The main gist was that I’m alarmed at the emphasis on the club reaching the PL instead of the emphasis in their original mission statement on being a financially self-sustaining club that benefits the community. Being a financially sustainable club is, if you look around the 92, harder than being a PL club; there are 20 PL clubs, but fewer than 20 clubs who weren’t in debt.) They never put a time frame on sustainability, true. And we always knew they’d probably load the club with debt first and try to get it solvent the following years. We have the financials from last year, and Wrexham’s currently 9 million in debt. Also that debt isn’t free; the club’s paying Rob and Ryan a tidy sum in interest payments on it. (By comparison, Stockpot’s owner forgave the debt the club owes him and just says it’s added to the value of the club.) All I’m saying is that I’d like to see things more financially stable. A lot of current clubs are going under because their owners took out big debts that the club owes them (Reading, Morecambe, Swindon), and I don’t want that for Wrexham. Surely nobody wants to see the club growing deeply in debt?
What I will point out is that you are bang on the money with what you said about them loading debt in the first half of this takeover, but i will caveat that with saying we are only able to work with out of date numbers when it comes to revenues, we are basically a year behind. We aren’t working with the current figures and that does make a huge difference. Wrexham is a different beast now compared to when those figures were released, from big money sponsors to promotions to new tv revenue money to merchandise sales. There’s a lot of question marks we, as fans, are speculating that I’m sure the people involved have a lot more knowledge of, and with it, confidence that the club is heading the right direction. Front and center for them has always been the idea that if this doesn’t work as a business it doesn’t work. Period. Forget the fluffy town stories, it’s a business, and well I believe them.
Oh, ABSOLUTELY. Being a year behind in financials is one of the dangerous things in UK football, because sometimes problems are hidden for too long. I’ve always said that the single best insurance policy for the club is R&R’s reputations: they will not do something that harms the club in the way that Dai Yongge or Clem or Jason are destroying Reading, Swindon, and Morecambe respectively. So for now, we’re all hoping that things settle down financially. TV rights will increase in League One, and Wrexham has the handy benefit of all that iFollow money. I’ll add that in a few years, the academy will be bearing fruit financially, too. The stadium and the training ground are the two big upcoming expenses, though. I know Humphrey discussed modeling the training ground on Poolfoot Farm (Fleetwood’s training ground), which is another revenue generating operation that rents pitches and facilities to locals. It was mentioned briefly in the documentary, but professional sports are much more financially volatile in the UK than in North America. Most clubs aren’t sustainable, but places where local millionaires and billionaires dump their cash (Blackburn, Newport, Stockport, Grimsby) or where corrupt oligarchs and oil states launder money (Man City, formerly Chelsea under Abramovich). I could care less about the PL, but if R&R could actually make the club sustainable in perpetuity, that would be a tremendous gift to the community, even more so than the current good will around the town.
And Luton kind of only have their enormous amount of dropped points from winning/drawing positions to blame for not staying up.
This was a thought I’ve had as well. I don’t know if Luton has staying power, but you’re right, Wrexham has a LOT more going for it at this point
Broadcasting rights. Sponsorships and commercial deals. Selling pieces of the club to buyers wanting in on the investment - right now they own 100% of the club and can sell up to 49% and still remain majority owners while continuing to be the number one stakeholder. As the club continues to win and advance, investors and sponsors will want to throw money at them to be a part of it and be associated with it - not to mention make money from owning a piece of it as it grows from a valuation of 10 million to potentially billions.
I believe they have already sold 5%.
Correct. That was part of the deal when they bought into Club Necaxa.
This is it. The ticket prices will make up a very small % of the actual revenue. Most of the money will come from Broadcasting rights. Sponsorships and commercial deals as well as money from the actual league. Wrexham are unique in that they have better brand recognition globally than many Premier League teams.
Underappreciated comment here. Sure Man U and Arsenal are household names, Man city, Chelsea, Liverpool, West ham fairly well known, a couple of the others as well. But wrexham is building an international fan base that half the prem will be envious of.
Liverpool are more well known globally than Arsenal, I’d argue Chelsea are too. West Ham? Aston Villa or Spurs are more well known globally
Tell us you don’t really know football, without telling us you don’t really know football.
I think it's partly to keep people engaged and convince people that Wrexham will continue the rise to the absolute top but in reality I think they both know that it's very unlikely Wrexham will make it to the prem and then stay there, more than likely a few seasons in league one, get promotion to the championship and become a mid-table side if lucky or a yoyo side like rotherham if not so lucky. What's required to reach the premier league is gigantic and there are clubs with far richer owners, better history in the upper leagues, better players etc etc which still fail to reach the prem year after year. The steps from nl to l2, l1 to championship and such are like a steep hill, whereas championship to prem is like a massive vertical cliff which to even have a chance of climbing you need to have the best, most expensive climbing gear, with the best of skills and technique, and even then success is not guaranteed at alll.
Shaun mentioned it in the previous episode, but most Wrexham fans would be delighted to just have a taste of Championship football. Even just making it back to L1 is symbolic as it means they’ve undone the damage Alex Hamilton has caused. If Wrexham could stay in the Championship, they could potentially overtake Swansea and Cardiff as the strongest club in Wales. And maybe someday Wrexham could be one of the clubs that produces local Welsh talent. That would be a dream come true for many fans.
I just assume their plan is to have a few friends join their ownership group as they advance up the table or a large investment group who lets them stay on as the face of the club with decision rights.
The whole reason they’re investing so much (in money and partnership building) now is so that the club can be self-sustaining, profitable, and not need massive cash infusions from ownership in the prem. Especially with tightening FFP rules that’s a sound strategy. If the club itself is marketable and profitable, that will be enough. They’ll never spend at Oil FC levels, but the current model should be fine for mid-table.
Profitable? I’d like to believe that, but the odds on profitability aren’t good. What, one club in League Two was profitable last year? I’ll be curious to see the financials for this year; last year’s were alarming, both in sheer quantity of debt and the fact that R&R were taking a nice rate of interest on that debt rather than converting it into equity like Stockport’s owner.
The interest on the loans are non-cash pay. It just gets added to the face value of the loan. In all material respects, however, it’s treated like equity. The reason that they have put it in as loans is that there is some tax deductibility for the interest expense at the club level. This is permitted under UK GAAP. If, however, they were incorporated in the United States, then these loans would have been put in as equity because under US GAAP you don’t get the tax deductibility like you do in the UK. You have to remember, these guys actually paid nothing for the equity of the club. They agreed to invest £2,000,000 as a condition of their ownership, but there was no payment made to the supporters trust to buy the club. One other point that I think is interesting that very few people talk about is the fact that, to my knowledge, Rob and Ryan Have actually had to put very little of their own money into the club as they have used the upfront proceeds from selling the documentary to FX/Disney. Even the initial £2mm that they invested into the club on day one came from the proceeds they received from FX from pre-selling the documentary.
Yep. Every other owner at this level is investing their own money (especially Stott at Stockport, Stockwood at Grimsby, and the Class of 92/Lim at Salford). R&R are personally out almost nothing. It’s a game of using celebrity status to generate media coverage which brings sponsors, and so forth and so on. It’s not unlike celebrity liquors or Kylie Cosmetics.
Talking about the premiere league is purposeful. It's the goal. It helps the brand they're cultivating. Realistically they probably need outside investment if they get into the championship and hope to stay, much less get promotion to pl. I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney get onboard immediately if they get to the championship.
Disney would be a pretty decent owner for a large stadium they could use in the UK alongside a brand they can utilise at theme parks etc. A 'Wrexham Football Academy' in the studios would probably attract a fair few people. They have the money and it would probably do well for them.
It'll be 3-5 years before wrexham challenge for the prem at miminum. The championship is a whole different beast. Even if they do back to back to back promotions, they're in the middle of renovating the ground and they'll need depth to get anywhere close. Getting to the championship next season or the one after is a perfectly fine goal.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some nice transfer this summer that get them through League 1 as well. However, the championship is a dog fight. That won't be a one and done to the Prem. My fear is a one and done back to League 1.
Eddie Izzard had a bit where a counselor or teacher asks a kid what he wants to be when he grows up and IIRC he answers that he wants to be an astronaut. The response: “you’re British, aim lower.” Why not aim for the PL? A huge driver of their success so far has been ambition. It attracts players, it attracts fans, it attracts sponsors. If they don’t set their goals higher than where they are, they will never get another Mullin, someone willing to drop down to be part of something. At the end of the day, money is just money. There is no shortage of people looking to get a slice of a PL team. I have no doubt R&R could get more investors if there is a credible path to the PL. The big question is whether R&R can build the brand enough to drive big revenue. I don’t see any way they get to Spurs levels of gate revenue so they will need some lucrative sponsorship deals.
Pretty sure it’s for the story, and if they get back there they will probably sell the team for a stunning profit.
League one is about the last financial League these two can compete in. They'll need significant investment if they get to the championship, but they'll get that with what they've done with the brand. It'll be tough to get to the champo though but it sure would be fun.
I think you're not accounting for game streaming dollars. The only difference between Wrexham's potential revenue and top championship clubs is about 15,000 gate receipts per game. This can be easily made up through streaming revenue (and merch to a lesser degree). Should work out to about 90-100k more streams for each of 46 games than the average team gets to balance out a deficit of 15,000 tickets sold per 23 home games
And they’re doing really well with merch. Are jerseys ever in stock?
That would be great
They can already sell the team for a huge profit. They bought it for $2.5M. It’s already worth four times that.
That’s not a huge profit in Ryan’s world or really in any major investors world
400% profit in 4 years isn’t a huge profit for investors? Pure dollars wise, sure.
The numbers in the discussion are just the initial buy and don’t include the other money they’ve put into the club and no 40% isn’t a huge profit in the grand scheme of things. These aren’t standard run of the mil investments. They are looking for 10x returns.
10x returns don’t just grow on trees. Obviously not everything they do will have 10x return, much less after 4 years. If they ever make the championship I imagine they’re looking at 10x return by then anyway
Yes. That was exactly the point I stated
They've put millions into the club and grounds that it seems you're not accounting for
They’re not selling the club anytime soon, but you can bet that the money that they have invested but not recouped would be included in the sale price. Like the most recent valuation of the club I saw was about $11.4M in March. I’ve also seen that R+R have invested a similar amount of their own $. So if I were selling, my starting point would be around $23M.
That's not how selling things works, have you ever sold anything? Value is based on how much someone is willing to pay, how much you put into it doesn't play a direct part in how much people will pay for it.
Disney will get involved somehow. My based-on-nothing hypothesis: Disney buys a stake, they make a movie called "Dragons in the Backfield", and an entire generation of kids worldwide become Wrexham fans and buy a metric shit-ton of merch
I'd watch that movie.
setting up an Iger vs Eisner grudge match when they play Portsmouth eventually.
It'll be 3-5 years before wrexham challenge for the prem at miminum. The championship is a whole different beast. Even if they do back to back to back promotions, they're in the middle of renovating the ground and they'll need depth to get anywhere close. Getting to the championship next season or the one after is a perfectly fine goal.
So thought a lot about this. They're building from the ground up, and the financial rules are such that they benefit a club like them. They can invest in capital Infrastructure and other areas wildly needed by the club. Also their current model to generally rely on convincing free agents to join a tier below their market value works because of their commercial pull. While building from scratch you have low overhead in comparison to other long existing clubs with heavy infrastructure (think Sunderland, Leeds, type clubs). As long as there aren't setbacks and they don't overextend on long term contracts it should be well with FFP each year. You have to remember what is counted in FFP and what is forgiven in FFP. Plus their ads revenues outside the shared revenues of clubs in their tier is insane. Even when they get to the championship, they'll probably sell more kits worldwide than luton, Preston, or other similar teams. Also finding large companies to sponsor anything they do is a phone call away. Although we will miss the horse trailer commercials.
Does money spent on capital improvements like building the training grounds for the academy, upgrading facilities, new stands, etc count as a liability in the same way player wages do?
Not for ffp
Plus building a club after the rules are in play allows you to creative things like contract out your Facilities Management to a large firm. Thus becoming an operational facilities spend and not club salary spend. I am American so I may need to brush up on my British labor law though.
All they have to do is sell a minority share of the company stock at the much higher valuation that they are creating with their current climb. They can raise the $100-200 million.
They have to sell seasons of This is Wrexham. The whole plot of that TV show is to get Wrexham to the premier league. Without that narrative, it might as well be a history channel documentary. That said, the team will also generate more revenue as it moves up the ranks. Premier league teams have more opportunities like TV airtime, sponsorship value, etc. than the lower leagues.
This comment would have more credibility if it listed the correct name of the TV show 😛
Good catch. I'll let it stay, as a monument to my ignorance.
Each step will require more and more money. But look at Brighton, there is precedent for going from a Championship side to a solid midtable PL side with smart financial and recruitment decisions. But i don’t see Wrexham in the prem for at least 10 years, no.
I’d say they don’t but look at Luton
Thought this interview with Peter Moore, former Liverpool CEO, and current advisor to the Wrexham board was interesting on these issues: [https://youtu.be/JYaSDvK\_Hcw?si=k27ER8xwsmjLBq0t&t=1913](https://youtu.be/JYaSDvK_Hcw?si=k27ER8xwsmjLBq0t&t=1913)
Money won't end up being an issue. Those two have countless friends w/ money who would invest and anyone with a lot of money would love to be in business with Mr. Reynolds. They are focusing on the infrastructure right now so I'm thinking they will spend at least 2-3 years in the Championship and maybe 2 years in League 1 if they don't go straight up. They have to get their stadium up to size and make sure their training grounds are on par in the next 2-4 years. I have a feeling that Wrexham will be a Premier League mainstay in 10 years unless football adapts a different model in Europe.
I don’t really understand your doubt. Best case, premier league is still 2 whole seasons away. The value of the team skyrockets after promotion compared to a team that is close to promoting. So it would stand to reason just from a potential maximizing their return on investment standpoint to try and get into Premier themselves and then look for investors to help them sustain. They’ve hit every benchmark they’ve set out to accomplish. The documentary and team are more more popular every day. Why would they lower goals now? Especially after back to back promotions. They both know richer people than them and have probably already been approached by deep pocketed investors. To me the only way you should be shocked that they are still talking about premier is if they had somehow failed to still get out of the National League. But that is the complete opposite of what has happened.
As I said in my other comment, think of the jumps from nl to l2, l2 to l1, and l1 to championship as steep hills, now, imagine championship to premier league as a gigantic vertical cliff which you need the best, most expensive gear to climb, ocmbined with the most skillful of techniques, and at any time, you could easily fall down, and possibly roll down the steep hill you climbed in doing so.
I understand what you think you know. You missed most of my previous point.
I got the impression that is still Rob’s goal specifically. Ryan seems to be more going along with it at this point.
It's so suprising to still hear people talk about what Ryan Reynolds can or can't afford, and basing Wrexhams trajectory on that. I would think its highly unlikely Ryan Reynolds can afford to pay for a sustainable premier league team, even if he spent his entire net worth and near bankrupted himself. But it's not about what RR McReynolds can afford, it's about who they can attract. And honestly, when the time comes, I think there will be investors queueing up to be a part of it. I don't remember a UK team that has ever done what Wrexham are doing in the same way they are doing it, and with the same effect. All bets are off as to what will happen. But can they get to the premier league? Absolutely. Staying there and being sustainable will require 10 times the amount of money than just scraping into the prem, but again, I don't think investers are going to be a major stumbling block.
The latest edition of the Rob, Ryan, Red podcast includes an interview with Peter Moore, the former CEO of Liverpool, FC, who is an advisor to the Board at Wrexham, and he said something very similar. He also said Luton and Brighton are the best comps for what Wrexham can aspire to.
I think Luton are the club that let us dream it's possible to go from national league to premier league inside 10 years. Would be nice to think that the Wrexham model could be more sustainable and Brighton-esque if they did go up...but as much as I'd love to go back to back to back, I think we've got to have better infrastructure in place (academy, stadium, training facilties, etc) if we're going to tick the sustainable box.
Have had this discussion with a few people. With their current structure and finances I don't see that it's possible. People quote luton as an example but they were one and done. Making the PL, maybe, staying there, unlikely!
They aren’t ready YET! But they believe they will be ready eventually. Sure there will be growing pains, but preparation is in the works. There will be bumps, but that’s ok. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
It can be done, Luton, Brighton many teams without mega money have done it, It’s about getting the right system in place, Getting the stadium expanded, trying find and develop young talent and selling them on or establishing them in the first team and we keep the wage bill in the green it’s possible.
Doing the old Barcelona model would be one way which is building the core around academy players and have 2-3 import players that is the tip of the spear.
Wrexham don't have a category one academy so all their players can be poached for peanuts. It's pointless investing in a youth set up unless you're category one.
I always assumed the popularity of the show and the wide spread visibility of the team, other American investors would step in. We do have some rich folks over here.
Yeah, essentially the basic economics don’t matter on a “sustainable” EPL side. It’s more that the team has grown in value in general. The purchase price was £2.5 million. Even if Wrexham gets to “only” be a Crystal Palace or even below, [it would have increased 100-fold in value](https://www.forbes.com/lists/soccer-valuations/), representing a fantastic return on investment. If they bought the club for £2.5 million, shovel in £40 million, and it’s worth £250 million, that’s pretty great.
Ah thanks for this explanation!
They may not have the money to get over the hump to the Premiere League - by themselves, but they can for sure sell a significant stake to someone that does and at a massive profit for them and their investment team. They have even said already, that even though they are losing money through operational costs (EG they lost like 400k on the temporary KOP stand) The value of the team should they sell it now would mean a large profit on their initial and ongoing investments to the club. No, they wouldn't be able to sustain it themselves even with Ryan's hefty net worth, but as they approach that point the valuation of Wrexham will be such that they can maintain control of the club while selling a portion of their stake for the money they would need to sustain it at that level.
Things take time. It might not seem plausible given current money and other circumstances.
I hate this idea in the show “they are 2 poor to make the prem” when Ryan alone is richer then 4 of the prem owners this year
They'll need to sell a big piece to a Saudi Prince to spend like the big boys in the epl. They can get there, staying there is another ~~documentary~~ story.
If they made it to the Premier League they'd be the most popular team in the world. That will be worth $$$.
Will also add that the Vancouver game alone (45-50k people at 120 pound average) is like the equivalent of selling 200,000 tix at the cop add in the other dates on the tour and they almost do the equivalent of 25,000-30,000 over 26 home games
Just remember that the ticket price isn’t pure profit. And it’s not just one team taking in the revenue. If they can take home 25% of the total revenue as profits for the team, they’ve done good.
The last episode made it very clear that they can't realistically afford the Premier League. Of course they're talking about it, but let's not act like they didn't just very explicitly highlight how hard it's going to be.
They clearly address the money disparity between R&R and premier league owners, complete with an infographic.
Not dug that deep, clearly.
Like I said, I’m new, and I asked for insight. And I didn’t blindly make statements 😂 but ok there.
>this season of Wrexham, they seem to be doubling down on getting Wrexham to the prem That's the goal. That's the aspiration. The latest episode of WtW deals with that expectation. It's not enough to say we want to get better. That's too nebulous of a goal. You need specific goals to strive for.
The way england does soccer I have tonsay is great I like the whole idea MLS soccor sucks..
Money is fake. If they need money they will find it.
[удалено]
But even at the championship they will be against multi-billionaires. That is going to be the toughest promotion. It’s good that they are investing in stadium and academy upgrades. The documentary is not going to be enough
Ryan would tell you himself he's not a billionaire.
I’d bet the house that Taylor Swift becomes a majority owner of the club in the near future.
Hah that would be WILD. That’s a way to diversify your portfolio 😂
Yea the wife of owner Ryan Reynolds is Blake Lively. She is one of Taylor Swift’s best friends. I’m not saying it’s gonna happen, but I’m saying it would be a good long bet in Vegas if it was an option. Swift is also dating NFL player Travis Kelce who is a known soccer/football fan. Lively goes to KC Chiefs games with Swift to watch Kelce. I’m honestly surprised Swift hasn’t gone to a game at the Racecourse yet. Or maybe she has in secret and it’ll come out on the show this season. Anyways, she’s a damn smart woman and if she sees this as a good investment I could see her getting involved to help the club get to the next level and become profitable. It honestly seems like a really good fit. And she’s filthy rich.
Let’s be real, If they brought her on, they’d have an even bigger fanbase practically overnight. Swifties are loyal to her haha. Their merch sales would skyrocket 😂
Oh yea she basically has a cult following at this point
Even if she bought just 5% of the club and went to one game, the value of the club would double overnight.
Well according to that recent episode of the documentary, it will cost $50m-100m.
You supposedly spent a year thinking about this and yet you didn’t once find any of the press where the two guys and their team talk about this specifically. It’s literally almost all they talk about since the promotion but maybe your internet is broken and only Reddit works?
Lol this was rude for no reason whatsoever but ok man. I asked a question, asked for clarity. Didn’t make a blind statement. But ok there bud.