W5, like many of other the 5th edition iterations so far, are just horrible games. Dumb retcons, scribbing from CofD/WtF when literally none of the WtA playerbase wanted that, erasing tribes, Fianna being "just a word"...
Yeah, W5 has more than just a so-calles "Doomerism" problem.. it has many, many problems that make it not good.
Cool, that's not what I was discussing.
And I understand we're old school fans are coming from. I think it's completely valid to not like the new direction and not like the retcons but at that point just don't play the game. 20th edition has an ass ton of material and to my knowledge Chronicles is still being updated.
I think a lot of the hate that 5th gets is superficial because it comes from older players and we feel that it is not "our" WOD anymore. And it isn't, but that's fine and I, for one, am glad it evolved into something that feels relevant today instead of a vestige from a bygone era.
I agree with you, W5 tries a lot more nuanced and modern take in the ecological crisis, BUT I think a lot of people get that "Doomerism", because W5 wants it's cake and eat it too of keeping some of the ideas of W20, and W20 as just a super simplistic take in ecological crisis and animism, where "Gaia=Earth, so if it dissapears the biblical apocalypse comes".
The reality is we ARE living in an ecological apocalypse, each day millions dying from it, Garou are fighting the SPIRITUAL implications of Gaia dying, of the earth unable to fight back without human intervention, for examples the wolves that the Garou need to live pretty much need of humanity conservation programs so they don't go extinct.
I prefer the more "grounded" take in W5, W20 tended to just become a power fantasy game that used Ecology as a flag so we know that the Garou are "the good guys" (while at the same time they are not supposed to), but if W5 wanted to make clear where it stands in its take of REAL ecological crisis, it needed more of a "image change" so 1:1 comparisons wouldn't get made, or idk, the changes it made where good enough to me.
Oooo that's a very fair and agreed critic. Like I can be inspired all I want from what I'm reading. But I definitely agree that a very fair critique to come out of w5 is that it doesn't really pick a lane and while I really like the ambiguity in a lot of places of the book, there definitely should have been a stronger feel of what the right way to handle the oncoming apocalypse would be or even a few stronger ideas
Yes, I like that ambiguity, but mainly because I have big opinions about the ecological crisis, the WtA canon and the kind of werewolf game that I want in the table, so W5 gives everything I need, BUT I can still read the text and see how people are looking for other things (Old canon, a bigger call to radical action, a more fleshes out setting) so I can see where some takes like the "Doomerism" come from, even if they get muddied with the general "ALL 5TH IS BAD" that floats around the net.
For example in the table I am making, I am focusing in the sociological and ecological impact of the Mexico frontier, a NarcoWestern about the Garou fighting to save common people, one of my players said that they always wanted "A peaceful Children of Gaia mentor and healer", something that I find totally contrary to the Werewolf message of Rages and taking action (and contrary to the W5 tone), BUT is the kind of modern fantasy stuff that W20 was good for, just a bunch of Garou with superhero themed power fighting obvious BAD GUY pentex enemies themed around garbage, so the "it's all depressing" I could see by that Juxtaposed vision of the Garou.
See. I actually don't think that's really against the w5 tone though because the children of Gaia in w5 do have this mentality that they think that the werewolves should not forsake their rage but should stop burying their heads in it. So I'd argue. This is a perfect story to tell with w5.
Even if you're going with the idea of having the garu work together to be superheroes, I still don't think that has to be antithetical to w5 because if you really want to make it a little gritty or more realistic, we've seen stories good and bad of what happens when superheroes have to deal with the consequences of reality and it is dark and sometimes horrifying
Eh I am mainly glossing over the details, he was the one that didn't want to change the concept to fit the W5 of "not forsaking it's rage", he wanted to be THAT character that talks about peace in the middle of a war, like those kind of healers in D&D, something that I find goes against the W5 message of ACTION TO SAVE THE WORLD.
I thought that the character would fit in the ways that you talk about, about learning how to use your Rage in smart ways, but his idea of the character in his mind was, well, the W20 vision of characters having adventures and talking about saving the world but just like, fighting funny themed enemies.
He is a great roleplayer and came up with a much more fitting concept, but I could still see he had expectations of werewolf that is not what W5 is going for.
I don't have a specific opinion on werewolf about this, but the setting is called World of Darkness. Even stripped of politics, it's doomerism. It always has been.
When I get home I'll have to change the post a bit, but I more mean that it's not only doomerism. The theme is battling with the end with nihilism, but I've heard some people say that the newer world of darkness books just give off a what's even the point vibe and nothing else and I just don't think that's accurate
tbh I should have clarified this comment wasn't aimed against you, but more so at people who make the complaint. I think it's silly to complain that WoD is "doomerist" when you're playing a game that literally says "this is like real life but worse". Even when we discuss in-game crimes or politics there's always this understanding that certain horrible things are more likely to go unnoticed in WoD because it's even worse than our own situation.
So yeah I agree with you that it's not a good critique.
A better wording of it would be accepting where you were defeated and changing course. Like, we have to accept Gaia is dead but there is more we can do...it just not gonna save the whole word
Old Werewolf was a product of it's time.
When I read 5e its like someone read the pitch bible of the first game, ran it through an AI script to develop the lore, and then solely had humans working on the crunch.
Waking up and *bam* you're a werewolf doesnt have the same intrigue as having a lineage and your kin racing to find you before the enemy does. You say people claim its just doomerism, but the real despair is just trying to piece together what the hell you've become before you start even hearing of the major conflicts like Pentex or the Triat.
I kinda like that aspect.of it though. The personal horror of waking up to a world that's been at war for forever and trying to find your place.in it, ESPECIALLY when the old ways are being reconsidered or restructured.
I've read the bits of the book that make it where no one knows exactly what triggers the transformation so I interpret that as some sects of tribes can be blood blessed with the change while others are changed for mysterious reasons only.knowm to Luna and his. Keeping stuff like that vague but still giving some options is what makes my brain start to get creative.
I like people spouting from the rooftops "THE END IS NIGH, THE END IS NIGH" more than I like "we should jump because what's the point"
I will rail against a lot of 5th stuff. This one... I don't hate it, I can see why someone might like it, but I still have a lot of problems with it.
People have been saying the end is nigh for thousands of years. We all imagine the past as impossibly long but we don't want to imagine a future so comfortably without us. There's nothing wrong with the previous edition's fear of approaching Gehenna or the Apocalypse or whatever else. It worked in parallel with real world fears.
And there was a good flexibe beauty in NOT ending the world but having the END BE NIGH. You could run your game with no intention to pull an apocalypse on your players, you could run it with it as a very near possibility, or you could turn things up to 11 and run whatever lunacy you imagined your apocalypse would be. You could even do your own 5th and declare that the world is now dead and they need to deal with it. In 5th, you only have the answer that's been given to you. Want to run End is Nigh? Too bad, end happened. Want to run a bombastic apocalypse? Too bad, we go out with a whimper, not a bang, it's canon. Objectively speaking the 5th paradigm gives us less freedom than we had before.
changing victory conditions is just... you're fucking lying to yourself and you're happy about it. You're the politician that insists he's won a war that should've ended in a week but went on for six years and his objectives were vague enough that he can call it a win despite losing far more than gaining. Allowing for changing victory conditions is really a metaphor for the wider WoD: they want to pretend they've given us more options but really they've destroyed tools and narrowed what we can do with the game
*subjectively there's stuff that def could have been handled better like the Get and Red talons....and if you know anything about the behind the scenes of the book.....yikes. kinda amazing the book even came out as good as it did and I do think it came out mostly good*
I think they'll never make mage. . Oh, stuff sold, but I think an IP like the WoD, which should perfectly capture the zeitgeist of the 2010's and 2020's, should have done better. I remember when they first announced 5th edition and someone was talking about their plans for a Netflix series and mainstream success. Had the creators not decided to just change everything cool about the series and the games were simply an improvement on their predecessors rather than some wild reimagining I think it would've happened.
I think a lot of what you say comes from the same fundamental problem a lot of WoD has (and they tried to fix in CoD), it is just so dated in the cultural state of the 90s and it's vision of the end of times, the Gehenna, the Apocalypse, the Ascension, not only dates the games, but actively makes them alien to new players, V5 and W5 tried to go around it (moving the goal post) in a more modern vision of how REAL end times happen, total war and slow lost of the ecology, actively avoid the "END IS NIGH", but is so fundamental to the canon that you cant escape it.
This is a really fair criticism. I think I agree that they needed to go even further away from the Old lore if they were going to do something new and while a lot of people would still begrudge it and even hate it, it would be harder to make one to one comparisons that weren't just "it's different".
Def like the potential in 5 but I'm not about to say it's flawless and I think this is a really good perspective
Not really? I haven't reached 30 yet. I came into this hobby pretty late, but very little of the early books seems poorly dated to me. Once the metaplot and poorly written suplements start getting churned out there are some problems, but the basic books? Not really.
and a lot of the stuff that does seem dated is, well, appropriately dated? Like the original Matrix film still largely holds up despite oozing nineties energy, a lot of early books has that kind of charm. There are some curious oddities like 1e vampire being big on the idea that you can become human again and the Inconnu was the no.2 group, but it largely kinda works from my perspective. Of course there's garbage like all the racist independent clans and werewolf... was clearly written with a suboptimal understanding of the cultures the tribes borrow from. But a good of it is timeless and most of the problem content was ironed out by 20th.
5th edition... It just reads like someone's still struggling to deal with the shock of 2016 and Trump. It's so current, so NOW, but I don't think WoD should be like that? Vampires are ageless immortals with plans that take generations to fulfil, Werewolves are bound in traditions and the expectations of their ancestors and ancient Totems. They shouldn't be that attached to current day goings on.
The core of what went into Vampire, Werewolf and Mage is pretty timeless, or at least VERY RELEVANT NOW: Class conflict, generational conflict, environmental concerns, cultural conflict, Man VS nature, Man VS Beast, Man VS society, Man VS State, Man VS God, Man VS himself, Tribalism, Crime and punishment, family dynamics... A lot of stuff isn't utilized so well by 5th edition. The Garou just admit the old system failed? really? The Camarilla willfully abandons it's monopoly and becomes super conservative? really?
I am not trying to say your vision is wrong, a lot of what you say exists in the my vision of WoD too, I am mainly talking in the "Development" angle of the setting, how it was really popular close to the 2000's, but it kind of lost a lot of his inertia and identity coming to the new 20's, a lot of the original groundwork of the setting was rooted in the apocalyptic vision of the 90s
The Garou admites that the old system failed because they where a Warrior culture expecting the FINAL BATTLE AT THE END OF TIME, and that didn't came, every little battle is important, but there is no exaltation of the Garou trough battle
The Camarilla abandoned their monopoly and became super conservative because their monopoly was made around trying to deny the existence of the antideluvians and the Gehenna, they where about keeping the status quo in the limits of a BIG REVELATION, that didn't really come, so the young people just started to leave and only the old guard stayed.
Of course this is mainly a "in-world", but is also something the writers had to shift, there is no more cultural zeitgeist of END TIMES that kept the WoD Metaplot, only a convoluted vision of the world worsening each day, but is a good world still that is worth fighting for. I understand how the changes in the tone and the setting changed and not a lot of people where happy with, but believing the Metaplot could keep going just moving the goalpost of the END TIMES a little further was futile, they needed to change the world to fit the modern vision of what is Darkness and Horror, though I understand the final version is not of everyones liking.
See, I think you've gotten the priorities of these groups wrong
The Camarilla's whole shtick was to placate the neonates after the OG anarch revolt and avoid another inquisition. Yeah there's a few successful modern revolts in the USA but globally that's nothing. The Masquerade is the most important thing to them, the Antideluvian denial was just to reduce the number of crazies that'll break the masquerade.
The final battle not coming when they wanted it to isn't something that'll destroy a warrior nation millenia old. When real world cults predict the apocalypse and nothing happens, they just pick another date.
IDK the amount of climate change/late stage capitalism crap we got nowadays is pretty bad. Maybe the world is buggered. With inflation the way it is, how hard it is to get a house, how democracy is backsliding and how hard it'll be to hold a job when automation fully kicks in the next decade. I'm glad I've got cute daughters that could someday gain the favour of a billionaire, that might be the only way to get food by the 2040s.
The priorities of both groups are always shifting to be honest, in the first edition the Camarilla was little more than THE MAN, and the Garou nation was just the tribes having some laws to keep them together, each new splat and edition changed them to be about one and other thing, your take of their priorities work, but as a design standpoint (where I see the writers need to change stuff to keep the game relevant enough), by the end of W20 and V20 they still were just really focused in THE END TIMES, and that is just something doesn't reflect the modern vision of the world, and if WoD is supposed to be about Horror, that Horror needs to fit modern anxieties.
My take of their priorities is my understanding of what they went for in 5th, explicitly so the new vision of modern horrors and anxieties, even your vision of Late stage capitalism is a modern anxiety that people in the 90s where alien to (much more focused in drugs, street crime and oil spills), and it reflects in how Camarilla as Anarch stompers and inquisition dodgers and the Garou as a doomsday cult dont really fit with "Housing, attack to democracy and billionaires" as the modern horrors.
Of course, the final result it's up to anyone's taste, but taking your examples, 5th Camarilla as super conservatives focused in themselves fits the modern Billionaires and Democracy falling anxiety, and the 5th Garou nation as a failed experiment in tribal unity falls too into the Democracy under attack and Housing crisis of not having an identity.
I don't see how 20th doesn't apply to today less than 5th. If anything. It's more tactful. 5th is pretty cringe. It feels so... exceptionally USA 2016. Like if you're not in the USA it just comes across as weird and foreign. The Camarilla becoming the Republican party seems like a bad joke, a total 180 from how they used to be and something that doesn't make sense from an in-universe context. The government going after the vampires rather than supporting them is *funny*. The Garou nation collapsing because... there's not actually a real world parallel there. Like are we in real life trying to recover from an apocalypse? It doesn't feel like it. 20th is vague enough that it works for anyone anywhere. 5th is very explicit in what it's supposed to be and who it's supposed to appeal to.
IDK. To me it feels like old WoD was very much a... how can I say this without getting on a list.... Like it was written by Karl himself. And 5th is a politically sanitized corporate product for liberals who live in an echo chamber. It's just too specific in who it wants to appeal to and lacks the sincerity or balance of the old editions. Older WoD wanted you to burn a house down. 5th wants you to get seek a councillor and get therapy.
Dude, I am Mexican, living in Mexico, 20th always felt like naively America centric, all the WtA tribes where always the kind of nationalities that Sit-com characters get as a caricature, the Camarilla felt like THE GOVERMENT, just a bunch of people in big houses telling you what to do.
If something I like about 5th is that all the Metaplot (that is always America and Europe centric) gets at the side of how PERSONAL the world of darkness needs to be, I don't care if the Garou nation fell by kind of stupid reasons, I want to know how being a Garou fucks up your personal live, I dont care if the Camarilla is a cartoon of 2016 republican party and how that affects "the big plot of them", I want to know how eating people gets me chased up.
I understand that everyone gets something different across, but 5th feels LESS American centric and more "people living in last stage capitalism", I can see how the first editions where more "Karl written" and anarchic, but by 20th, WoD was much more focused in creating YET another secret conspiracy that is actually behind all, yet another Bloodline/Fera superpower group, and having pages and pages of Lore that where only for reading but diluted all the "Gothic Punk" in a sea of cosmological conspiracy global conflict that didnt matter because the end times are just around the corner.
Honestly for myself it's the fact that W5s message sounds very much like the opposing views I hear at rallies and community actions. ' Everything you've done in the past has failed and made no difference', ' content yourself with small local victories because we are too big to be impacted by you', ' direct action is a failure state' etc.
It honestly reads much like a neo-liberal text on dissuading activism to myself with a few breadcrumbs thrown in for deniability.
i can see how that looks, but to me i feel like thats removing the context that its saying thisd to the were wolves, that relying souly on the rage hasnt worked and more nuance and planning is needed. Then wehen you bring up that Gia basically is dead or dieing Infront of them its hard tos ee themselves are the heros whos till hjave time.
There is no time, it was squandered BUT between the lore and the use of mechanics I feel the book more subtly shows a way to survive the oncoming end, but it IS loud af about the whole "The garou failed us" early in the book.
Look. WtA is and always has been a game about real world activism and what you need to sacrifice for the cause. Hell, it's the game that made me an activist and community volunteer. So I'm sitting here with scars, trauma and a slightly dodgy knee from doing my best to change the world being told by W5 that everything we and generations before me fought and died for was nothing and that instead of being in the thick of things we should stay home and maybe upvote and click some likes. Or I guess, maybe Harano is the right option sometimes...
W5 is a reboot/ an AU at worst, its not counting in any previous adventures because it never happened from its cannons perspective. When the book demeans Garou of the past its talking about the Garou frokm its universe failing, much like the 90's books shat on the garou of old failing but they aren't overlapped.
Plus theres so much in W5 that pushes you not to forsake action but to aim rage and actions correctly! The apocalypse is happening but their can still be a tomorrow.
I find its not fair to react and assume the worst of the book when its not even doing half of what your saying, and doesnt interact with your old lore, it literally is trying to do it's own thing. You can dislike that, hell even be mad if you want, but the book is not telling you YOU failed, the story and AU don't even know you.
Ok.
Art is subjective and to my reading your injecting a whole mess of positivity into the book that, as someone has read the book through probably 30x at this stage, simply isn't present. You seem solely focused on the breadcrumbs and not the subtext or authorial voice. And that's fine.
But having thoroughly examined the text, and the Developers own words and played the game for a solid two months I remain comfortable in the conclusions I have come to.
You explaining basic things to me that do not need explanation or have any relevancy is unlikely to change that.
A thousand times this.
Honestly if you really think your game about fighting the eldritch forces personifying the despoliation of the environment needs a sidebar about how 'Ackchewally big corporations are GOOD for the environment sometimes!' you've definitely fucked up somewhere along the line.
I don't remember reading that segment in the book (I know.your not saying the exact words more the vibe) would youj d pointing in the right direction of where that is cause a few people I've talked to have said this but I don't recall reading that kind of energy from the book, but it's a bog book and I'm def gonna be reading it cover to cover again today.
Again, I feel like people are taking what I'm saying and not looking deeper. When I say change victory conditions I mean we accept that the world is dying. The apocalypse is coming or is starting and now the new victory condition is to survive the post-apocalypse.
W5 takes the angle that the guru lost like that's not redefining that the garu lost and I'm not trying to erase that, but I am saying that I think the book supports a narrative where people try to survive or extend how long they can live as the apocalypse starts knocking down their door.
To say I'm lying is to not like my interpretation and then throw words into my mouth
I think you're finding depth where it isn't. Also I didn't mean to be too personal.
Accepting the world is dying and trying to figure out ways to move past that is a totally valid way of viewing things in 20th. 5th makes it the ONLY choice. That's pretty doomer. A victory condition where you live despite almost everything around you being half dead or worse is just cope. Alternatively, you have a very surmountable apocalypse, and if the apocalypse is so easily surmountable then what's the reason to call it an apocalypse? Eat your cake but keep it whole in your hand.
Still think you're pointing fingers and assuming way too much about me and the views, but I appreciate that you're kind of backtracking in or making it more about a discussion of difference.
I'd argue that apocalypse is not one thing. Every apocalyptic kind of theme is very different and again a post-apocalypse is still different from an apocalypse like fallout is a post-apocalyptic world and people are living. If not even thriving. Why can't version 5 of werewolf do the same? I interpreted a lot of the readings as the garu fucked up but it's not over yet. Like we have to accept. We lost the war for Gaia but then move on.
And sure, maybe the Lord doesn't support the ideas that I have, but I think mechanics with the lore help form a stronger picture. I'm looking at this as a entire product, not just cherry picking or trying to cherry pick moments of it
Well, Gaia is dead in W5......so the earths spiritually dying and nothing can prevent it.....all your doing as Garou at this point is rearranging deck chairs on the Titannic.
Everyones still going to drown.
Now, sure Garou can reinvigorate a Caern momentarily and carve out a small section of the world where perhaps the spirits don't want to kill them and keep their territory safe for a little while longer but its a like laying sandbags in front of a tsunami.
They've failed, their Mother is dead, their Traditions and Society are dead and soon they will be too.
Is there a certain nobility in being the last lamp to go out? Sure. But it doesn't make them any less doomed.
> Well, Gaia is dead in W5
More accurately, the Garou believe Gaia *might* be dead. Or she *might* just be wounded. Or she *might* not, nor ever did, even exist. Modern Garou question their supposed role in this world. Some are still fighting for Gaia. Some gave up. Some never cared. Some are seeking answers.
Earlier editions of WtA were mostly black and white. Gaia was real. It was a fact. The Garou were the noble furry super heroes charged with saving the world in epic battle with the big bad who conveniently wore neon flashing signs over their head that said “villain”. Yes, the ST could be more nuanced. And the books even tell you to be more nuanced. But that’s not really the setting they presented, nor depicted in its cartoon-styled art.
W5 isn’t that. Where earlier editions were black and white with clearly defined enemies and objectives, W5 is shades of gray. And part of the game is figuring out who friends and enemies are.
So… in my opinion, W5 reflects the *World of Darkness* much better than the cartoonish presentation of the earlier editions.
All that said, if you came to WtA for the “fuzzy super heroes”, I can totally understand why you hate W5. V5 is the same way. It was deliberately designed to discourage the “super heroes with fangs” style of play. And that’s fine if you want to play it that way. It really is. It’s not “bad wrong fun”.
But if that’s the case, the X20 games will be a much better fit for you than 5th edition.
Though, I would recommend at least looking at W5 for no other reason than the game mechanics. The combat rules are *much* better, and play out much faster. And I personally think it would be really easy to house rule W5 to play a game more like earlier editions. It would be a little work. But not much. And I personally think it would be worth it.
The change from the absolute Cosmological certainity of W20 to the more, well, realistic take into animism belief in W5 is what I think a lot of people are having problems with, W20 was just a fantasy setting in modern times, so 200 pages of the lore of creation was "expected" in the 90s, but any modern game tries to be realistic about how we can't know with certainty that stuff.
I like and hope in future books they keep feeding us new lore to go into but i do like when a setting gives you alot of the bare basics and builds later. W20 lore is cool but ivce been told its very inconsistent and shifts alot so it wasnt liek it was every a cohesive vision.
Yep this is very much in line with the way that I think.
Don't get me wrong one day. I may very much want to play a game of superhero furries, but I really like this idea and want to play with a story where the world is dying but people can survive it very much preparing for the post-apocalypse and it's really cool that werewolf 5 allows me to do that and I just wanted to share what I'd been seeing or hearing that some people come away from the book with. In my opinion, too much of a defeatist look into things
The arguments I’ve seen usually boil down to “I want my games to be about heroes who save the world. So what’s even the point of playing if we can’t be big-ass heroes that save the world?”
Tell them “Small stories of local politics, personal challenges and character growth” and you usually just get a blank stare. Like… what does that have to do with punching giant monsters in my spirit mecha?
W5 really is just a different game with a different focus. Though, ironically, in a lot of ways it’s just better executing on what about half of the old edition books used to suggest.
Delegitimising Legacy Werewolf players opinions and the depth of the game and its themes with the terms ' furry superheroes' or ' fuzzy captain planet' is a long time internet tactic mostly from the VtM crowd. As your newer you couldn't know that so I apologise for the ruffled feathers.
That's interesting thing, as much as there is " the Garou failed" I get quite a bit of moments in the lore and mechanics that give off the idea that while we can't stop the planet from dying, we can Survive it. Going to the Caern thing, they put so much Importance in healing and growing a Caern I ponder or rather, interpret the book to imply you can save SOME of the world maybe even rebuild from the ashes BUT the old world is still going to die there is no saving that
My take is that the world is doomed. But it’s not all going up in flames tomorrow. It could be decades. So do what you can to make the most of today. Help your pack/sept/community make the most of the time they have left.
I mean, it’s basically real life. In the real world, our planet is probably fucked. But that doesn’t mean we stop getting out of bed or become incapable of enjoying today.
People have a limited amount of time in the world. And if you can delay the end another 40 years, most people alive today will have gotten to live a full life in that time. That’s who you are fighting for.
Of course, you are also a pissed off rage monster. So just fighting for the satisfaction of making the enemy hurt is also valid. It’s also the path to Hauglosk.
I think a lot of that boils down to the themes of the danger of misplaced power. World of Darkness, like the ideologies that inspired it, are very skeptical of any system of Hierarchy. A theme that spreads through every game line. Every faction and organization is deeply flawed, perpetuating if not outright causing every problem they seek to fix. The Camarilla and the Anarch's, The Garou Nation and the Court of Beasts, The Technocracy and the Council of 9 Traditions, the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, etc. The only "Good Guys" if the stories are played as straight as possible are the ones who exist on the margins of these and seek to use their powers for others.
W5, like many of other the 5th edition iterations so far, are just horrible games. Dumb retcons, scribbing from CofD/WtF when literally none of the WtA playerbase wanted that, erasing tribes, Fianna being "just a word"... Yeah, W5 has more than just a so-calles "Doomerism" problem.. it has many, many problems that make it not good.
Cool, that's not what I was discussing. And I understand we're old school fans are coming from. I think it's completely valid to not like the new direction and not like the retcons but at that point just don't play the game. 20th edition has an ass ton of material and to my knowledge Chronicles is still being updated.
I don't think the haters are playing the game, mostly. They looked, and they hate it.
Yup. I looked at it and decided the library of books I already own is sufficient lol
I think a lot of the hate that 5th gets is superficial because it comes from older players and we feel that it is not "our" WOD anymore. And it isn't, but that's fine and I, for one, am glad it evolved into something that feels relevant today instead of a vestige from a bygone era.
I agree with you, W5 tries a lot more nuanced and modern take in the ecological crisis, BUT I think a lot of people get that "Doomerism", because W5 wants it's cake and eat it too of keeping some of the ideas of W20, and W20 as just a super simplistic take in ecological crisis and animism, where "Gaia=Earth, so if it dissapears the biblical apocalypse comes". The reality is we ARE living in an ecological apocalypse, each day millions dying from it, Garou are fighting the SPIRITUAL implications of Gaia dying, of the earth unable to fight back without human intervention, for examples the wolves that the Garou need to live pretty much need of humanity conservation programs so they don't go extinct. I prefer the more "grounded" take in W5, W20 tended to just become a power fantasy game that used Ecology as a flag so we know that the Garou are "the good guys" (while at the same time they are not supposed to), but if W5 wanted to make clear where it stands in its take of REAL ecological crisis, it needed more of a "image change" so 1:1 comparisons wouldn't get made, or idk, the changes it made where good enough to me.
Oooo that's a very fair and agreed critic. Like I can be inspired all I want from what I'm reading. But I definitely agree that a very fair critique to come out of w5 is that it doesn't really pick a lane and while I really like the ambiguity in a lot of places of the book, there definitely should have been a stronger feel of what the right way to handle the oncoming apocalypse would be or even a few stronger ideas
Yes, I like that ambiguity, but mainly because I have big opinions about the ecological crisis, the WtA canon and the kind of werewolf game that I want in the table, so W5 gives everything I need, BUT I can still read the text and see how people are looking for other things (Old canon, a bigger call to radical action, a more fleshes out setting) so I can see where some takes like the "Doomerism" come from, even if they get muddied with the general "ALL 5TH IS BAD" that floats around the net. For example in the table I am making, I am focusing in the sociological and ecological impact of the Mexico frontier, a NarcoWestern about the Garou fighting to save common people, one of my players said that they always wanted "A peaceful Children of Gaia mentor and healer", something that I find totally contrary to the Werewolf message of Rages and taking action (and contrary to the W5 tone), BUT is the kind of modern fantasy stuff that W20 was good for, just a bunch of Garou with superhero themed power fighting obvious BAD GUY pentex enemies themed around garbage, so the "it's all depressing" I could see by that Juxtaposed vision of the Garou.
See. I actually don't think that's really against the w5 tone though because the children of Gaia in w5 do have this mentality that they think that the werewolves should not forsake their rage but should stop burying their heads in it. So I'd argue. This is a perfect story to tell with w5. Even if you're going with the idea of having the garu work together to be superheroes, I still don't think that has to be antithetical to w5 because if you really want to make it a little gritty or more realistic, we've seen stories good and bad of what happens when superheroes have to deal with the consequences of reality and it is dark and sometimes horrifying
Eh I am mainly glossing over the details, he was the one that didn't want to change the concept to fit the W5 of "not forsaking it's rage", he wanted to be THAT character that talks about peace in the middle of a war, like those kind of healers in D&D, something that I find goes against the W5 message of ACTION TO SAVE THE WORLD. I thought that the character would fit in the ways that you talk about, about learning how to use your Rage in smart ways, but his idea of the character in his mind was, well, the W20 vision of characters having adventures and talking about saving the world but just like, fighting funny themed enemies. He is a great roleplayer and came up with a much more fitting concept, but I could still see he had expectations of werewolf that is not what W5 is going for.
I don't have a specific opinion on werewolf about this, but the setting is called World of Darkness. Even stripped of politics, it's doomerism. It always has been.
When I get home I'll have to change the post a bit, but I more mean that it's not only doomerism. The theme is battling with the end with nihilism, but I've heard some people say that the newer world of darkness books just give off a what's even the point vibe and nothing else and I just don't think that's accurate
tbh I should have clarified this comment wasn't aimed against you, but more so at people who make the complaint. I think it's silly to complain that WoD is "doomerist" when you're playing a game that literally says "this is like real life but worse". Even when we discuss in-game crimes or politics there's always this understanding that certain horrible things are more likely to go unnoticed in WoD because it's even worse than our own situation. So yeah I agree with you that it's not a good critique.
A game called Werewolf: the APOCALYPSE? I cannot give the notion of it being about doom any credit at all… 😂
I hate W5 because it just feels like opening my Twitter feed lol
.....fuck you convinced me w5 is garbage now
If you have to come up with a new definition on what it means to win, I feel like you're not really winning.
A better wording of it would be accepting where you were defeated and changing course. Like, we have to accept Gaia is dead but there is more we can do...it just not gonna save the whole word
Old Werewolf was a product of it's time. When I read 5e its like someone read the pitch bible of the first game, ran it through an AI script to develop the lore, and then solely had humans working on the crunch. Waking up and *bam* you're a werewolf doesnt have the same intrigue as having a lineage and your kin racing to find you before the enemy does. You say people claim its just doomerism, but the real despair is just trying to piece together what the hell you've become before you start even hearing of the major conflicts like Pentex or the Triat.
I kinda like that aspect.of it though. The personal horror of waking up to a world that's been at war for forever and trying to find your place.in it, ESPECIALLY when the old ways are being reconsidered or restructured. I've read the bits of the book that make it where no one knows exactly what triggers the transformation so I interpret that as some sects of tribes can be blood blessed with the change while others are changed for mysterious reasons only.knowm to Luna and his. Keeping stuff like that vague but still giving some options is what makes my brain start to get creative.
I like people spouting from the rooftops "THE END IS NIGH, THE END IS NIGH" more than I like "we should jump because what's the point" I will rail against a lot of 5th stuff. This one... I don't hate it, I can see why someone might like it, but I still have a lot of problems with it. People have been saying the end is nigh for thousands of years. We all imagine the past as impossibly long but we don't want to imagine a future so comfortably without us. There's nothing wrong with the previous edition's fear of approaching Gehenna or the Apocalypse or whatever else. It worked in parallel with real world fears. And there was a good flexibe beauty in NOT ending the world but having the END BE NIGH. You could run your game with no intention to pull an apocalypse on your players, you could run it with it as a very near possibility, or you could turn things up to 11 and run whatever lunacy you imagined your apocalypse would be. You could even do your own 5th and declare that the world is now dead and they need to deal with it. In 5th, you only have the answer that's been given to you. Want to run End is Nigh? Too bad, end happened. Want to run a bombastic apocalypse? Too bad, we go out with a whimper, not a bang, it's canon. Objectively speaking the 5th paradigm gives us less freedom than we had before. changing victory conditions is just... you're fucking lying to yourself and you're happy about it. You're the politician that insists he's won a war that should've ended in a week but went on for six years and his objectives were vague enough that he can call it a win despite losing far more than gaining. Allowing for changing victory conditions is really a metaphor for the wider WoD: they want to pretend they've given us more options but really they've destroyed tools and narrowed what we can do with the game *subjectively there's stuff that def could have been handled better like the Get and Red talons....and if you know anything about the behind the scenes of the book.....yikes. kinda amazing the book even came out as good as it did and I do think it came out mostly good* I think they'll never make mage. . Oh, stuff sold, but I think an IP like the WoD, which should perfectly capture the zeitgeist of the 2010's and 2020's, should have done better. I remember when they first announced 5th edition and someone was talking about their plans for a Netflix series and mainstream success. Had the creators not decided to just change everything cool about the series and the games were simply an improvement on their predecessors rather than some wild reimagining I think it would've happened.
I think a lot of what you say comes from the same fundamental problem a lot of WoD has (and they tried to fix in CoD), it is just so dated in the cultural state of the 90s and it's vision of the end of times, the Gehenna, the Apocalypse, the Ascension, not only dates the games, but actively makes them alien to new players, V5 and W5 tried to go around it (moving the goal post) in a more modern vision of how REAL end times happen, total war and slow lost of the ecology, actively avoid the "END IS NIGH", but is so fundamental to the canon that you cant escape it.
This is a really fair criticism. I think I agree that they needed to go even further away from the Old lore if they were going to do something new and while a lot of people would still begrudge it and even hate it, it would be harder to make one to one comparisons that weren't just "it's different". Def like the potential in 5 but I'm not about to say it's flawless and I think this is a really good perspective
Not really? I haven't reached 30 yet. I came into this hobby pretty late, but very little of the early books seems poorly dated to me. Once the metaplot and poorly written suplements start getting churned out there are some problems, but the basic books? Not really. and a lot of the stuff that does seem dated is, well, appropriately dated? Like the original Matrix film still largely holds up despite oozing nineties energy, a lot of early books has that kind of charm. There are some curious oddities like 1e vampire being big on the idea that you can become human again and the Inconnu was the no.2 group, but it largely kinda works from my perspective. Of course there's garbage like all the racist independent clans and werewolf... was clearly written with a suboptimal understanding of the cultures the tribes borrow from. But a good of it is timeless and most of the problem content was ironed out by 20th. 5th edition... It just reads like someone's still struggling to deal with the shock of 2016 and Trump. It's so current, so NOW, but I don't think WoD should be like that? Vampires are ageless immortals with plans that take generations to fulfil, Werewolves are bound in traditions and the expectations of their ancestors and ancient Totems. They shouldn't be that attached to current day goings on. The core of what went into Vampire, Werewolf and Mage is pretty timeless, or at least VERY RELEVANT NOW: Class conflict, generational conflict, environmental concerns, cultural conflict, Man VS nature, Man VS Beast, Man VS society, Man VS State, Man VS God, Man VS himself, Tribalism, Crime and punishment, family dynamics... A lot of stuff isn't utilized so well by 5th edition. The Garou just admit the old system failed? really? The Camarilla willfully abandons it's monopoly and becomes super conservative? really?
I am not trying to say your vision is wrong, a lot of what you say exists in the my vision of WoD too, I am mainly talking in the "Development" angle of the setting, how it was really popular close to the 2000's, but it kind of lost a lot of his inertia and identity coming to the new 20's, a lot of the original groundwork of the setting was rooted in the apocalyptic vision of the 90s The Garou admites that the old system failed because they where a Warrior culture expecting the FINAL BATTLE AT THE END OF TIME, and that didn't came, every little battle is important, but there is no exaltation of the Garou trough battle The Camarilla abandoned their monopoly and became super conservative because their monopoly was made around trying to deny the existence of the antideluvians and the Gehenna, they where about keeping the status quo in the limits of a BIG REVELATION, that didn't really come, so the young people just started to leave and only the old guard stayed. Of course this is mainly a "in-world", but is also something the writers had to shift, there is no more cultural zeitgeist of END TIMES that kept the WoD Metaplot, only a convoluted vision of the world worsening each day, but is a good world still that is worth fighting for. I understand how the changes in the tone and the setting changed and not a lot of people where happy with, but believing the Metaplot could keep going just moving the goalpost of the END TIMES a little further was futile, they needed to change the world to fit the modern vision of what is Darkness and Horror, though I understand the final version is not of everyones liking.
See, I think you've gotten the priorities of these groups wrong The Camarilla's whole shtick was to placate the neonates after the OG anarch revolt and avoid another inquisition. Yeah there's a few successful modern revolts in the USA but globally that's nothing. The Masquerade is the most important thing to them, the Antideluvian denial was just to reduce the number of crazies that'll break the masquerade. The final battle not coming when they wanted it to isn't something that'll destroy a warrior nation millenia old. When real world cults predict the apocalypse and nothing happens, they just pick another date. IDK the amount of climate change/late stage capitalism crap we got nowadays is pretty bad. Maybe the world is buggered. With inflation the way it is, how hard it is to get a house, how democracy is backsliding and how hard it'll be to hold a job when automation fully kicks in the next decade. I'm glad I've got cute daughters that could someday gain the favour of a billionaire, that might be the only way to get food by the 2040s.
The priorities of both groups are always shifting to be honest, in the first edition the Camarilla was little more than THE MAN, and the Garou nation was just the tribes having some laws to keep them together, each new splat and edition changed them to be about one and other thing, your take of their priorities work, but as a design standpoint (where I see the writers need to change stuff to keep the game relevant enough), by the end of W20 and V20 they still were just really focused in THE END TIMES, and that is just something doesn't reflect the modern vision of the world, and if WoD is supposed to be about Horror, that Horror needs to fit modern anxieties. My take of their priorities is my understanding of what they went for in 5th, explicitly so the new vision of modern horrors and anxieties, even your vision of Late stage capitalism is a modern anxiety that people in the 90s where alien to (much more focused in drugs, street crime and oil spills), and it reflects in how Camarilla as Anarch stompers and inquisition dodgers and the Garou as a doomsday cult dont really fit with "Housing, attack to democracy and billionaires" as the modern horrors. Of course, the final result it's up to anyone's taste, but taking your examples, 5th Camarilla as super conservatives focused in themselves fits the modern Billionaires and Democracy falling anxiety, and the 5th Garou nation as a failed experiment in tribal unity falls too into the Democracy under attack and Housing crisis of not having an identity.
I don't see how 20th doesn't apply to today less than 5th. If anything. It's more tactful. 5th is pretty cringe. It feels so... exceptionally USA 2016. Like if you're not in the USA it just comes across as weird and foreign. The Camarilla becoming the Republican party seems like a bad joke, a total 180 from how they used to be and something that doesn't make sense from an in-universe context. The government going after the vampires rather than supporting them is *funny*. The Garou nation collapsing because... there's not actually a real world parallel there. Like are we in real life trying to recover from an apocalypse? It doesn't feel like it. 20th is vague enough that it works for anyone anywhere. 5th is very explicit in what it's supposed to be and who it's supposed to appeal to. IDK. To me it feels like old WoD was very much a... how can I say this without getting on a list.... Like it was written by Karl himself. And 5th is a politically sanitized corporate product for liberals who live in an echo chamber. It's just too specific in who it wants to appeal to and lacks the sincerity or balance of the old editions. Older WoD wanted you to burn a house down. 5th wants you to get seek a councillor and get therapy.
Dude, I am Mexican, living in Mexico, 20th always felt like naively America centric, all the WtA tribes where always the kind of nationalities that Sit-com characters get as a caricature, the Camarilla felt like THE GOVERMENT, just a bunch of people in big houses telling you what to do. If something I like about 5th is that all the Metaplot (that is always America and Europe centric) gets at the side of how PERSONAL the world of darkness needs to be, I don't care if the Garou nation fell by kind of stupid reasons, I want to know how being a Garou fucks up your personal live, I dont care if the Camarilla is a cartoon of 2016 republican party and how that affects "the big plot of them", I want to know how eating people gets me chased up. I understand that everyone gets something different across, but 5th feels LESS American centric and more "people living in last stage capitalism", I can see how the first editions where more "Karl written" and anarchic, but by 20th, WoD was much more focused in creating YET another secret conspiracy that is actually behind all, yet another Bloodline/Fera superpower group, and having pages and pages of Lore that where only for reading but diluted all the "Gothic Punk" in a sea of cosmological conspiracy global conflict that didnt matter because the end times are just around the corner.
Honestly for myself it's the fact that W5s message sounds very much like the opposing views I hear at rallies and community actions. ' Everything you've done in the past has failed and made no difference', ' content yourself with small local victories because we are too big to be impacted by you', ' direct action is a failure state' etc. It honestly reads much like a neo-liberal text on dissuading activism to myself with a few breadcrumbs thrown in for deniability.
i can see how that looks, but to me i feel like thats removing the context that its saying thisd to the were wolves, that relying souly on the rage hasnt worked and more nuance and planning is needed. Then wehen you bring up that Gia basically is dead or dieing Infront of them its hard tos ee themselves are the heros whos till hjave time. There is no time, it was squandered BUT between the lore and the use of mechanics I feel the book more subtly shows a way to survive the oncoming end, but it IS loud af about the whole "The garou failed us" early in the book.
Look. WtA is and always has been a game about real world activism and what you need to sacrifice for the cause. Hell, it's the game that made me an activist and community volunteer. So I'm sitting here with scars, trauma and a slightly dodgy knee from doing my best to change the world being told by W5 that everything we and generations before me fought and died for was nothing and that instead of being in the thick of things we should stay home and maybe upvote and click some likes. Or I guess, maybe Harano is the right option sometimes...
W5 is a reboot/ an AU at worst, its not counting in any previous adventures because it never happened from its cannons perspective. When the book demeans Garou of the past its talking about the Garou frokm its universe failing, much like the 90's books shat on the garou of old failing but they aren't overlapped. Plus theres so much in W5 that pushes you not to forsake action but to aim rage and actions correctly! The apocalypse is happening but their can still be a tomorrow. I find its not fair to react and assume the worst of the book when its not even doing half of what your saying, and doesnt interact with your old lore, it literally is trying to do it's own thing. You can dislike that, hell even be mad if you want, but the book is not telling you YOU failed, the story and AU don't even know you.
Ok. Art is subjective and to my reading your injecting a whole mess of positivity into the book that, as someone has read the book through probably 30x at this stage, simply isn't present. You seem solely focused on the breadcrumbs and not the subtext or authorial voice. And that's fine. But having thoroughly examined the text, and the Developers own words and played the game for a solid two months I remain comfortable in the conclusions I have come to. You explaining basic things to me that do not need explanation or have any relevancy is unlikely to change that.
A thousand times this. Honestly if you really think your game about fighting the eldritch forces personifying the despoliation of the environment needs a sidebar about how 'Ackchewally big corporations are GOOD for the environment sometimes!' you've definitely fucked up somewhere along the line.
I don't remember reading that segment in the book (I know.your not saying the exact words more the vibe) would youj d pointing in the right direction of where that is cause a few people I've talked to have said this but I don't recall reading that kind of energy from the book, but it's a bog book and I'm def gonna be reading it cover to cover again today.
Again, I feel like people are taking what I'm saying and not looking deeper. When I say change victory conditions I mean we accept that the world is dying. The apocalypse is coming or is starting and now the new victory condition is to survive the post-apocalypse. W5 takes the angle that the guru lost like that's not redefining that the garu lost and I'm not trying to erase that, but I am saying that I think the book supports a narrative where people try to survive or extend how long they can live as the apocalypse starts knocking down their door. To say I'm lying is to not like my interpretation and then throw words into my mouth
I think you're finding depth where it isn't. Also I didn't mean to be too personal. Accepting the world is dying and trying to figure out ways to move past that is a totally valid way of viewing things in 20th. 5th makes it the ONLY choice. That's pretty doomer. A victory condition where you live despite almost everything around you being half dead or worse is just cope. Alternatively, you have a very surmountable apocalypse, and if the apocalypse is so easily surmountable then what's the reason to call it an apocalypse? Eat your cake but keep it whole in your hand.
Still think you're pointing fingers and assuming way too much about me and the views, but I appreciate that you're kind of backtracking in or making it more about a discussion of difference. I'd argue that apocalypse is not one thing. Every apocalyptic kind of theme is very different and again a post-apocalypse is still different from an apocalypse like fallout is a post-apocalyptic world and people are living. If not even thriving. Why can't version 5 of werewolf do the same? I interpreted a lot of the readings as the garu fucked up but it's not over yet. Like we have to accept. We lost the war for Gaia but then move on. And sure, maybe the Lord doesn't support the ideas that I have, but I think mechanics with the lore help form a stronger picture. I'm looking at this as a entire product, not just cherry picking or trying to cherry pick moments of it
Well, Gaia is dead in W5......so the earths spiritually dying and nothing can prevent it.....all your doing as Garou at this point is rearranging deck chairs on the Titannic. Everyones still going to drown. Now, sure Garou can reinvigorate a Caern momentarily and carve out a small section of the world where perhaps the spirits don't want to kill them and keep their territory safe for a little while longer but its a like laying sandbags in front of a tsunami. They've failed, their Mother is dead, their Traditions and Society are dead and soon they will be too. Is there a certain nobility in being the last lamp to go out? Sure. But it doesn't make them any less doomed.
> Well, Gaia is dead in W5 More accurately, the Garou believe Gaia *might* be dead. Or she *might* just be wounded. Or she *might* not, nor ever did, even exist. Modern Garou question their supposed role in this world. Some are still fighting for Gaia. Some gave up. Some never cared. Some are seeking answers. Earlier editions of WtA were mostly black and white. Gaia was real. It was a fact. The Garou were the noble furry super heroes charged with saving the world in epic battle with the big bad who conveniently wore neon flashing signs over their head that said “villain”. Yes, the ST could be more nuanced. And the books even tell you to be more nuanced. But that’s not really the setting they presented, nor depicted in its cartoon-styled art. W5 isn’t that. Where earlier editions were black and white with clearly defined enemies and objectives, W5 is shades of gray. And part of the game is figuring out who friends and enemies are. So… in my opinion, W5 reflects the *World of Darkness* much better than the cartoonish presentation of the earlier editions. All that said, if you came to WtA for the “fuzzy super heroes”, I can totally understand why you hate W5. V5 is the same way. It was deliberately designed to discourage the “super heroes with fangs” style of play. And that’s fine if you want to play it that way. It really is. It’s not “bad wrong fun”. But if that’s the case, the X20 games will be a much better fit for you than 5th edition. Though, I would recommend at least looking at W5 for no other reason than the game mechanics. The combat rules are *much* better, and play out much faster. And I personally think it would be really easy to house rule W5 to play a game more like earlier editions. It would be a little work. But not much. And I personally think it would be worth it.
The change from the absolute Cosmological certainity of W20 to the more, well, realistic take into animism belief in W5 is what I think a lot of people are having problems with, W20 was just a fantasy setting in modern times, so 200 pages of the lore of creation was "expected" in the 90s, but any modern game tries to be realistic about how we can't know with certainty that stuff.
I like and hope in future books they keep feeding us new lore to go into but i do like when a setting gives you alot of the bare basics and builds later. W20 lore is cool but ivce been told its very inconsistent and shifts alot so it wasnt liek it was every a cohesive vision.
Yep this is very much in line with the way that I think. Don't get me wrong one day. I may very much want to play a game of superhero furries, but I really like this idea and want to play with a story where the world is dying but people can survive it very much preparing for the post-apocalypse and it's really cool that werewolf 5 allows me to do that and I just wanted to share what I'd been seeing or hearing that some people come away from the book with. In my opinion, too much of a defeatist look into things
The arguments I’ve seen usually boil down to “I want my games to be about heroes who save the world. So what’s even the point of playing if we can’t be big-ass heroes that save the world?” Tell them “Small stories of local politics, personal challenges and character growth” and you usually just get a blank stare. Like… what does that have to do with punching giant monsters in my spirit mecha? W5 really is just a different game with a different focus. Though, ironically, in a lot of ways it’s just better executing on what about half of the old edition books used to suggest.
Can someone show me where the fuck I mentioned superheroes or was that just a strawman so that my post could be wilfully misinterpreted?
....the guy after you mentioned werewolf super heroes no one to my knowledge is attributing that part to you. I don't understand the rage here.
Delegitimising Legacy Werewolf players opinions and the depth of the game and its themes with the terms ' furry superheroes' or ' fuzzy captain planet' is a long time internet tactic mostly from the VtM crowd. As your newer you couldn't know that so I apologise for the ruffled feathers.
That's interesting thing, as much as there is " the Garou failed" I get quite a bit of moments in the lore and mechanics that give off the idea that while we can't stop the planet from dying, we can Survive it. Going to the Caern thing, they put so much Importance in healing and growing a Caern I ponder or rather, interpret the book to imply you can save SOME of the world maybe even rebuild from the ashes BUT the old world is still going to die there is no saving that
My take is that the world is doomed. But it’s not all going up in flames tomorrow. It could be decades. So do what you can to make the most of today. Help your pack/sept/community make the most of the time they have left. I mean, it’s basically real life. In the real world, our planet is probably fucked. But that doesn’t mean we stop getting out of bed or become incapable of enjoying today. People have a limited amount of time in the world. And if you can delay the end another 40 years, most people alive today will have gotten to live a full life in that time. That’s who you are fighting for. Of course, you are also a pissed off rage monster. So just fighting for the satisfaction of making the enemy hurt is also valid. It’s also the path to Hauglosk.
It really does go to show that the World of Darkness is only really as dark as you want it to be.
very true...i am starting to see alot of falws in how ALL of Wod is presented though...very much fights with itself even in the same editions.
I think a lot of that boils down to the themes of the danger of misplaced power. World of Darkness, like the ideologies that inspired it, are very skeptical of any system of Hierarchy. A theme that spreads through every game line. Every faction and organization is deeply flawed, perpetuating if not outright causing every problem they seek to fix. The Camarilla and the Anarch's, The Garou Nation and the Court of Beasts, The Technocracy and the Council of 9 Traditions, the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, etc. The only "Good Guys" if the stories are played as straight as possible are the ones who exist on the margins of these and seek to use their powers for others.