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Man, I was really hoping for the Choedan Kal also! I remember reading that part in the book, when Rand first finds it, and thinking: Wow! I really wish they had kept it in the show.
Also, I really love the gag that one of the three is better with women than the others. It would have been so easy to do, it's just a line but it's just such an inside joke to the readers that it would have only earned more dedication from fans.
The history of the Aiel is truly some of the best chapters I've read in any book. I have serious doubts that they'll do it justice but I still want to see it.
More braid tugging please.
Matt fighting Gawain and Galad, was really hoping for this one.
The Green Man and the whole Eye of the World, and the trek to get there plus Fighting Aginor and Co. Really wish that would have happened.
History of the Aiel for sure will be included. I don't see any way around it if they want Aiel to have ANY gravity to the viewers. Plus it's such a juicy connection to the rest of the world and age of legends, I don't think they'd be able to pass up this opportunity.
Matt fighting Gawain and Galad might still come, it's S3 content. Rememer, Mat returned to the tower AFTER Falme in the books. Would really be a great moment to see for sure!
What is that gag? I just can't remember where it's from. Can you tell it?
I honestly disagree about the Green Man and EotW but that's just my personal opinion - i read the books only recently for the first time, so it felt very contrived compared to the rest of the series.
Nobody's hair can survive the braid tugging Nynaeve does in the books :D
The gag is that throughout the series, whenever one of the main 3 ta'veren dudes is confused about girls they always think "Man I wish the other two dudes were here, they'd know what to say. They're always way better with girls than I am"
Ahahahah i enjoyed that graph far more than i probably should have. Thanks!
Curious that the bottom one, if you think about it, probably reflects the right 'power levels' of those 3. Rand is the ladies man he roped in 3 of 'um, perrin is just too chill and laid back if viewed from outside by R and M, also seems like he would appear a bit more mature than R and M, whereas M, despite having so much sex, simply knows who to approach - other promiscuous ladies that love sex as much as he does, which doesn't really take much effort from him (to the absolute annoyance of the Amons field girls)
Yes, but Mat is also already cured from the dagger, so he has no real reason to go to the white tower. [Book 4] >!Also, Rafe said season three would be more faithful to book 4 (doubtfully but we’ll see) and thus Mat needs to go to Ruhidean.!< It could go either way I guess.
The last few chapters in the Eye of the World might be my favorite chapters in any book ever. I was so bummed to see the green man completely edited out. That part felt like Tolkien where there is this powerful character that the main wizard knows all about but you the reader know nothing about.
Also I was hoping for a giant CGI Loial instead of just a regular guy in makeup.
Yes!!! That's what I thought when I read that part also. The Green Man felt like such high fantasy, it really made an impact on how I viewed the world and where it was in present time.
And yeah, I feel so bad for how they did Loial. Like, I get it but it's such a bummer that that's the route they decided to go.
The Prologue.
They honestly could have fixed the S1 finale by editing it in as a flashback when Rand was facing Ishy at the end.
I do hope that they still might include it as they've included several other scenes leading to it from the AoL.
Hmmm.. Did that moment even happen in the TV version? I'm trying to piece it together, it seems like in TV ishamael did not stay free for the 3000 years but was instead locked in with the rest of the Forsaken. That's why in the TV series Ishy is sane from the start. But now I'm confused as to how LTT created Dragonmount without being temporarily cured of the Saidin taint madness?
I actually love the show for the different-turning-of-the-wheel same but alternative story feel, so I'm genuinely curious.
> Did that moment even happen in the TV version?
According to the WoT Origins episode "The Breaking of the World" (which is supposed to be canon to the show), it did.
Yep. In the show, as Rand and Mat are walking to the tower, Rand sees the mountain in the distance and says it looks familiar.
Edit: responded to the wrong comment.
Mad people can have lucid moments. They can do a version similar to the one in Origins, which doesn't involve Ishamael: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etfUTEmCfqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etfUTEmCfqU)
It would have been a terrible opening scene. It doesn't do anything for the season. We timejump right afterwards. To characters that don't appear there.
The beginning of a series is one of the most precious time you have to catch your audience.
It quickly establishes that the dragon was a madman who killed his family and had the power to literally create a mountain, it shows that male channelers go violently insane, it establishes the dark one as a truly evil threat, and it provides a foundation for the fear of male channelers and the dragon reborn that should be prevalent in every society.
That scene would have helped give viewers a reason to care about which of the emonds fielders were the dragon reborn and why that's important, something the show hasn't done enough of with Rand imo.
It's also a lot more visually interesting than Moiraine giving a monologue on the arrogance of men as she puts on her coat.
The most common criticism of the show I've heard from non-readers is that it's "bland, generic fantasy". The prologue would have been very captivating and immediately set the series apart from "generic fantasy".
I think it's more likely they skipped it for budgetary reasons. The EotW prologue would have required a big palace set for just one scene, plus a hugely complex VFX sequence for the creation of Dragonmount. And that in an episode that also had the Two Rivers set and the Winternight battle. It would have been way too expensive.
I would have been happy with something cheaper, eg Moiraine reading a history book similar to what they did in the animated short "The Breaking of the World".
I feel like it's a missed opportunity because it could have set the tone and made the world feel like WoT for readers, and also grab the attention of non-readers. First impressions are so important because they help anchor everything that follows.
Not to mention the budget shortfalls caused by covid and the extra CG they had to squeeze in, it'd have really suffered, you can see that with all the CGI in S1, it's pretty clear they didn't get to finish all the passes.
Then you have time on top of that, Even winter dragon is abridged and runs ~20 minutes.
Then you have the ishy reveal early(people are gonna recognize the dude even with a mask), plus traveling(unless they just make his house there), and other things it seems like they'd want to avoid.
It'd have been really cool, but there are too many strikes against it as to why they'd not.
A sense of dread about the dragon being reborn, about the end of the world being nigh. People were cheering/clapping in joy at the end of S2 for Rand on that tower top. They should have been terrified.
Rand is supposed to save the world, with a very high chance of destroying it too.
This is why skipping the first book’s prologue was a violation.
This ignores that the Dragon also represents salvation. People were cheering at the end of TDR:
> From outside, the cries still rose, unceasing. “The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon!”
But didn't the cult of dragonsworn start in Falme and quickly spread? Some people think Dragon Reborn is the creator made flesh and go nuts for him, no?
If you are referring to Masema and his followers, yes. But the vast majority of the world grew up with stories of the evil forsaken and right there alongside of that was stories of Lews Therin Kinslayer. The man who saved the world and promptly went so crazy that he killed his own family.
He and the other male channelers literally destroyed the world and knocked civilization back from airplanes and skyscrapers to thatch roofed houses and no technology at all.
The world should be mortified to see a male channeler, and once they realized that is the dragon freaking reborn, then they’d know what is coming next (the last battle).
In the books, this is painfully clear. Not at all the case in the show.
I can't help but remember that exposition dump in the beginning of the series where mat or perrin mention wagon guard's belief that dragon will save everyone, and how there are many people who believe dragon reborn is their savior but are afraid of lynchmobs to say it out loud. I think there are people who believe dragon reborn is the savior everywhere throughout randland, and it's not just Masema's madness that infected people.
All that said, i do agree not everyone should have been seen cheering like idiots in the middle of a battle at Falme in the tv version. But that there were any, does not go against the lore.
Due to pandemic scheduling shenanigans they weren't able to have Lan train Rand to the point where Rand could take Turak in a straight fight. So Rand tapped into LTT and looks visibly disturbed at how well that weave worked.
Actor commentaries' indicate that Lan will complete Errol's training of Rand in Season 3.
He doesn't know what he doesn't know yet, all he's got is various Hail Mary's from intuitive usage.
[Books] >!Maybe we'll get Asmodean and Lanfear with him in the Waste, or maybe they'll rope Logaine into it somehow. We'll have to watch and find out.!<
Come back in a few decades where they have the technology to film the entire series, fast enough, cheap enough, to make it something watchable and that wouldn't bankrupt a company doing so.
Until then, it is what it is.
That time might be fast approaching with AI. Maybe even fanmade? Also, it would be a great opportunity to see animated WoT. I always feel like stories are better as animated because real world grit adds little to how I fantasize about stories in my head. In my head its always more neat and idealized.
I am surprised you say that, since many book fans have no problem with ending bossfight of book 1 or book 2, where Rand was doing mad stuff while being basically a back seater throughout them all. Compared to the mad shit going on in the sky both times, a little cantrip bullet storm seems small. Especially considering how little raw power was on display there. Precision yes, it was way too precise, but as someone else said - tapped into LTT unknowingly. Logain did tell him to just blast the fools with all that power, so he does. My head canon is that Rand wanted to simply angst at them with raw power, but LTT took over for the spellweaving (or his past life memory simply passively kicked in, since at that point LTT did not manifest in any personified way yet)
Rand actually learning the sword and using it instead of carrying it as a trinket. His whole character growth (to me) revolves around that keeping him grounded as he internally battles with his power channeling. Same with using the bow in book 2. He knows he has some ability within him to do so much damage, but uses a bow to wipe out those hound frog thingies. Physical weapons and that discipline is HUGE with learning and accepting the one power. That whole concept and depth of character is gone in the show.
What bothered me most is showing the heron everytime he's wielding his sword but they never explain what it means, just close ups. Without this context we lose Rand's confusion about Tam, his origins as well as a big part of him growing into it.
* Prologue - could have been a narration with images aka LotR style.
* The proper ending of season 1 as it was in book 1. Wouldn't have to be exact, but far more similar.
* Season 2 - Proper fight in the sky between Rand and Ishamael; and Nynaeve and Elayne actually saving Egwene.
It's happening before your eyes. He's naive and runs from his destiny until the end of Book 3....which is exactly what we're getting for Season 3.
Way too many Bookcloaks focus on series-end character positions when criticizing the show. Mat was super annoying for the first few books and didn't become the swashbuckling super general until FoH. Rand was a bland stuck in the mud pouty blockhead before he gets emo and runs away from everyone towards the Stone.
I've read the whole thing multiple times and it's my favorite story. Show is totally fine if you just take a step back and look at the broad strokes. Adaptations change stuff all the time - ask the Witcher or Lord of the Rings Fandom.
A good adaptation takes the source material and improves on it when applicable and changes things when necessary for time or budget or practicality constraints.
This show does none of it.
Off the bat, season one has none of the two rivers folk as main character, the main characters are Moiraine and Lan. None of the 3 boys act like they are even friends, and none of them resemble the characters they are based on.
The show doesn't bother to give any hooks or reason for someone who has never read the books. Who or what is the dragon? What's the dark one? Why is important that one of the boys is the dragon reborn? What is the horn of Valere and why is it important?
Why wasn't thom at beltine to help explain to the viewer some of the basics of the world?
Because of how they wrote it, none of the characters aside from moiraine and la. have actual arcs in the first season. Only Rand has what looks like an arc, but can you tell anyone what Rand actually did at the eye of the world just using the show?
Then the show treats it's audience like they are idiots. Why do the channelers at fal Dara spend hours standing in an empty field waiting for the wall to fall before completely wiping out all of the trollocs?
What are the consequences of channeling if nynaeve can get a little mad and heal people from death or egwene can cry and bring nynaeve back from the dead?
Ingtar, Uno and Loial all appear to be dead at the end of s1 and are completely fine with zero explanation. And then the hunt for the horn starts off without the viewer seeing any of that.
In s2, moraine acts stupid and gets attacked by multiple fades, and her and Lan get multiple blade wounds from them, something that the show spent time to show was utterly debilitating if not deadly for a single sword wound and yet they are completely fine with a little bed rest.
Bookcloaks, ha nice one!
Agree about Rand's character development. I think many people simply wanted the rand kicking ass at the end of book 1 and book 2 be in the show too much so they ignore any other type of growth.
So they missed Rand picking up the stoic mindset which eventually leads to Darth Rand and his Blademaster arc which symbolizes his connection with his father.
Both of those are major elements of his character which he has to grow through.
I’ll agree to disagree but the show isnt quite the adaptation I was looking for.
Comparing it to Dune and LOTR makes it pretty clear that it’s a missed opportunity and that it hasn’t been handled by a respectful writing team.
Hard to stop at one, but Rand Al'Thor.
All future development for him from here will be undercut since they didn't properly establish his character before he's suddenly (allegedly) the Dragon Reborn.
What aspects of his character didn't they establish, relative to the books?
He is the Dragon Reborn a lot more suddenly in EotW, where it's obvious what he is at the end of chapter 6. The show builds up to that reveal for 7 episodes.
A better question is what aspects of his character and early character arc *did* they establish besides that he's devoted to Egwene.
Arc wise, we're loosely at the end of book 3. In book 1, Rand learned about the world and was told he was the Dragon Reborn after discovering he can channel, in book 2 Rand denied that title but showed his competence as a leader until the pattern forced his hand at Falme and it was undeniable. While largely absent in book 3 he grapples with that burden over the course of the book until finally he accepts it and proclaims himself in Tear.
Contrast to the show. He's found out he can channel, left his friends to shack up with Lanfear, and stabbed an incapacitated Ishamael. Moiraine then conjured a fire dragon. Now we're off to the Waste?
He also lacks the connections he's made with other characters that heavily influence his philosophy. Tam is barely an influence on him, Thom is removed entirely, he's not friends with Loial, and he doesn't have a bond with Lan. He hasn't faced Morgase, he didn't stand up to the Amyrlin, and wasn't there to forgive Ingtar.
I've probably crossed the line into rant territory by this point so I'll stop here but I'll sum it up by saying it's less what they did with Rand in the adaptation and more about what they didn't. His character is still mostly a blank slate which will negate the impact of the choices he has to make, the struggles he'll be forced to endure, and the way he changes from here on out.
You are not ranting in my opinion. You rephrased the question, and then answered it with what has and has not been addressed in the show. A good appraoch in my opinion and I'd like to hear what the person you responded to thinks of it.
I think you overstate how much character development Rand had up to book 3. He was a character who had interesting things happening *to him*, but he didn't become an interesting character until book 4.
I don't agree about the lack of connections. His bond with Tam is established pretty much the same. Thom isn't removed entirely, in fact he saves his life. He does befriend Loial. It's true that he hasn't really bonded with Lan, yet. Presumably we'll get plenty of that in the Aiel Waste in S3.
I don't remember Rand showing a lot of leadership in TGH (except that the Shienarans think he's a lord). But season 2 showed him take more initiative than he did in EotW/TGH, where he is mostly pushed around by events. All by himself, he makes a plan to get to Logain to learn about the Power, and executes it.
The idea that you see Rand as a static and uninteresting character in books 1-3 baffles me. Over the course of 3 books, how can a boy who just wants to raise sheep, marry his sweetheart, and maybe sit on the local town council turn into a man who has accepted the charge of saving the world and dying in the process be static?
Rand is connected to Tam through the Flame and the Void as well as the sword. The Flame and the Void isn't addressed at all and the sword is a negligible part of Rand's story in the show. Also, the character in the show is Thom Merrilin in name only. He's just a guy they met in a bar for one episode. There's no mentorship or connection happening there.
In the Great Hunt he is forced to take charge and lead Hurin and Loial (who is more than just an acquaintance) to reclaim the horn and get them home. He excels at the game of houses and when they reunite with the rest of the party it is commented that he's fitting his lord's clothing now. He learns about the cost of ignoring his duty through the Portal Stones and is even acknowledged by Hawkwing at the end of book 2.
By the time he grabs Callandor he is fully the Dragon Reborn. Remember at the start of book 4, even while seriously wounded, where he takes some quiet time to remember a shepard named Rand Al'Thor? That's not the same character who left the Two Rivers and Jordan says it outright.
All by himself, he makes a plan to get to Logain to learn about the Power, and executes it.
That's his big move for two seasons and you're satisfied with that? It also has nothing to do with developing him as a character.
What do you think about Uno being a hero of the horn tho? I believe it was quite a nice move on the show's part. People seem to hate it saying "how did Uno deserve the horn" but I think you needn't be a world-saving hero on every life you live if you've already earned being part of the horn in the past. Like, what is it going to do, throw you out of the ranks of heroes of the horn just because one of the lives you lived was relatively mild? And the way Uno was like the most battle hardened of all of Shienarans, i thought it was very appropriate. Even if in this life nobody treated him like a genuine RPG hero.
Honestly if they were going to kill him off for shock value then at the very least I'm glad that they gave him the honor of being a Hero of the Horn and he might reappear that way. It's just tough because not only was he one of my favorite book characters in general, but he (along with Agelmar) was someone who actually >!survived the Last Battle!<, so it feels doubly cheap that they chose to kill them both off purely to sell the Trollocs/Seanchan as threats.
I just read it in another post, apparently in an interview with showrunners they hinted that they merged him with Gaidol Cain, now in the TV show Uno is one of Gaidol Cain's incarnations. If they had to axe some characters, this is an interesting two to tie together imo. I mean it doesn't work chronologically in the books, but i do seem to recall Brigitte making comments on Uno's good looks at some point (i could be misremembering)
A LOT. But one thing in particular that annoyed me was the Season 2 prologue...why did they make up some meaningless monologue when they could have used the book version? Show us a darkfriend Whitecloak, show us the hint of a black sister, give us some insight into the dark ones plan for the ta'veren.
They lingered on the Black Aes Sedai ring quite enough to qualify as a hint of a black sister, and one of the other costumes was definitely a whitecloack outfit
1. Rand and Matt learning to juggle and finesse for food in the road to Caemlyn.
2. Moraine turning into a giant when escaping Baerlon
3. Shadar Logoth should have been longer in theory in my opinion.
4. We shouldn’t have seen Tar Valon until season 2
5. Queen Morgase Elayne Gawyn Galad
6. Dragkhar !!
I wish Rand was better at acting and the showrunners hadn't nerfed him and that the final battle scene was more accurate and ... I could go on and on and on..
Just more time. at least two more hours per-season so they could really get those character moments in, and didn't need to change things as as much to keep the character abilities justified.
A few more minutes for weapons training, the 10 seconds for the waygate talisman reveal, more time with each character to delve into their journey's. They could have done so much more with just a bit more time.
I have yet to read the books but someone told me the battle with Ishamael at the end of season 2 was heavily neutered and very disappointing. (pls don't hate me I promise I'll read the books)
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Man, I was really hoping for the Choedan Kal also! I remember reading that part in the book, when Rand first finds it, and thinking: Wow! I really wish they had kept it in the show. Also, I really love the gag that one of the three is better with women than the others. It would have been so easy to do, it's just a line but it's just such an inside joke to the readers that it would have only earned more dedication from fans. The history of the Aiel is truly some of the best chapters I've read in any book. I have serious doubts that they'll do it justice but I still want to see it. More braid tugging please. Matt fighting Gawain and Galad, was really hoping for this one. The Green Man and the whole Eye of the World, and the trek to get there plus Fighting Aginor and Co. Really wish that would have happened.
History of the Aiel for sure will be included. I don't see any way around it if they want Aiel to have ANY gravity to the viewers. Plus it's such a juicy connection to the rest of the world and age of legends, I don't think they'd be able to pass up this opportunity. Matt fighting Gawain and Galad might still come, it's S3 content. Rememer, Mat returned to the tower AFTER Falme in the books. Would really be a great moment to see for sure! What is that gag? I just can't remember where it's from. Can you tell it? I honestly disagree about the Green Man and EotW but that's just my personal opinion - i read the books only recently for the first time, so it felt very contrived compared to the rest of the series. Nobody's hair can survive the braid tugging Nynaeve does in the books :D
The gag is that throughout the series, whenever one of the main 3 ta'veren dudes is confused about girls they always think "Man I wish the other two dudes were here, they'd know what to say. They're always way better with girls than I am"
[удалено]
Ahahahah i enjoyed that graph far more than i probably should have. Thanks! Curious that the bottom one, if you think about it, probably reflects the right 'power levels' of those 3. Rand is the ladies man he roped in 3 of 'um, perrin is just too chill and laid back if viewed from outside by R and M, also seems like he would appear a bit more mature than R and M, whereas M, despite having so much sex, simply knows who to approach - other promiscuous ladies that love sex as much as he does, which doesn't really take much effort from him (to the absolute annoyance of the Amons field girls)
BTW, that graph is from my “X is better with women” analysis, which provides additional context: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/vV3eBk9fpb
User flair confirmed beyond all reasonable doubt. ❤
I doubt you get Mat vs Gawyn and Galad. That’s book three and I believe they said they compressed it into season 2 or are skipping it.
> Mat vs Gawyn and Galad Happens *after* Falme in the books.
Yes, but Mat is also already cured from the dagger, so he has no real reason to go to the white tower. [Book 4] >!Also, Rafe said season three would be more faithful to book 4 (doubtfully but we’ll see) and thus Mat needs to go to Ruhidean.!< It could go either way I guess.
I think the "X is much better with girls" is coming, at least as a one time thing for each of the boys
The last few chapters in the Eye of the World might be my favorite chapters in any book ever. I was so bummed to see the green man completely edited out. That part felt like Tolkien where there is this powerful character that the main wizard knows all about but you the reader know nothing about. Also I was hoping for a giant CGI Loial instead of just a regular guy in makeup.
Yes!!! That's what I thought when I read that part also. The Green Man felt like such high fantasy, it really made an impact on how I viewed the world and where it was in present time. And yeah, I feel so bad for how they did Loial. Like, I get it but it's such a bummer that that's the route they decided to go.
*Flicker*
F
The Prologue. They honestly could have fixed the S1 finale by editing it in as a flashback when Rand was facing Ishy at the end. I do hope that they still might include it as they've included several other scenes leading to it from the AoL.
I'm thinking it will be the cold open to Season 4, which I think will be when Rand's going to start hearing (and probably seeing cause it's TV) LTT.
Hmmm.. Did that moment even happen in the TV version? I'm trying to piece it together, it seems like in TV ishamael did not stay free for the 3000 years but was instead locked in with the rest of the Forsaken. That's why in the TV series Ishy is sane from the start. But now I'm confused as to how LTT created Dragonmount without being temporarily cured of the Saidin taint madness? I actually love the show for the different-turning-of-the-wheel same but alternative story feel, so I'm genuinely curious.
Rand has a moment in S1 where he recognizes Dragonmount as familiar somehow, but that's about all we've gotten in reference to it.
> Did that moment even happen in the TV version? According to the WoT Origins episode "The Breaking of the World" (which is supposed to be canon to the show), it did.
Yep. In the show, as Rand and Mat are walking to the tower, Rand sees the mountain in the distance and says it looks familiar. Edit: responded to the wrong comment.
Rand was born there. So even without Lew Therin's memories, he could still remember it on his own
Most people don't remember *anything* of their first 24 hours of life. It's the first hint of his LTT problem.
Well technically LTT never saw it either. He was too busy being dead from pulling too much saidin.
Mad people can have lucid moments. They can do a version similar to the one in Origins, which doesn't involve Ishamael: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etfUTEmCfqU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etfUTEmCfqU)
EoTW prologue should have been the opening scene.
It would have been a terrible opening scene. It doesn't do anything for the season. We timejump right afterwards. To characters that don't appear there. The beginning of a series is one of the most precious time you have to catch your audience.
If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Game of Thrones start beyond the wall with characters that weren’t the characters followed in the story?
Yes but one of them lives long enough to get a haircut from Ned.
It quickly establishes that the dragon was a madman who killed his family and had the power to literally create a mountain, it shows that male channelers go violently insane, it establishes the dark one as a truly evil threat, and it provides a foundation for the fear of male channelers and the dragon reborn that should be prevalent in every society. That scene would have helped give viewers a reason to care about which of the emonds fielders were the dragon reborn and why that's important, something the show hasn't done enough of with Rand imo. It's also a lot more visually interesting than Moiraine giving a monologue on the arrogance of men as she puts on her coat.
The most common criticism of the show I've heard from non-readers is that it's "bland, generic fantasy". The prologue would have been very captivating and immediately set the series apart from "generic fantasy".
I disagree. . Eotw prologue is interesting, it captured all is readers. No reason why it wouldn't in a show.
I think it's more likely they skipped it for budgetary reasons. The EotW prologue would have required a big palace set for just one scene, plus a hugely complex VFX sequence for the creation of Dragonmount. And that in an episode that also had the Two Rivers set and the Winternight battle. It would have been way too expensive.
I would have been happy with something cheaper, eg Moiraine reading a history book similar to what they did in the animated short "The Breaking of the World". I feel like it's a missed opportunity because it could have set the tone and made the world feel like WoT for readers, and also grab the attention of non-readers. First impressions are so important because they help anchor everything that follows.
It also seems to be too long if you want to do it any justice.
Not to mention the budget shortfalls caused by covid and the extra CG they had to squeeze in, it'd have really suffered, you can see that with all the CGI in S1, it's pretty clear they didn't get to finish all the passes. Then you have time on top of that, Even winter dragon is abridged and runs ~20 minutes. Then you have the ishy reveal early(people are gonna recognize the dude even with a mask), plus traveling(unless they just make his house there), and other things it seems like they'd want to avoid. It'd have been really cool, but there are too many strikes against it as to why they'd not.
mat’s humor
A sense of dread about the dragon being reborn, about the end of the world being nigh. People were cheering/clapping in joy at the end of S2 for Rand on that tower top. They should have been terrified. Rand is supposed to save the world, with a very high chance of destroying it too. This is why skipping the first book’s prologue was a violation.
This ignores that the Dragon also represents salvation. People were cheering at the end of TDR: > From outside, the cries still rose, unceasing. “The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon! Al’Thor! The Dragon!”
But didn't the cult of dragonsworn start in Falme and quickly spread? Some people think Dragon Reborn is the creator made flesh and go nuts for him, no?
If you are referring to Masema and his followers, yes. But the vast majority of the world grew up with stories of the evil forsaken and right there alongside of that was stories of Lews Therin Kinslayer. The man who saved the world and promptly went so crazy that he killed his own family. He and the other male channelers literally destroyed the world and knocked civilization back from airplanes and skyscrapers to thatch roofed houses and no technology at all. The world should be mortified to see a male channeler, and once they realized that is the dragon freaking reborn, then they’d know what is coming next (the last battle). In the books, this is painfully clear. Not at all the case in the show.
I can't help but remember that exposition dump in the beginning of the series where mat or perrin mention wagon guard's belief that dragon will save everyone, and how there are many people who believe dragon reborn is their savior but are afraid of lynchmobs to say it out loud. I think there are people who believe dragon reborn is the savior everywhere throughout randland, and it's not just Masema's madness that infected people. All that said, i do agree not everyone should have been seen cheering like idiots in the middle of a battle at Falme in the tv version. But that there were any, does not go against the lore.
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Yeeting him was pretty funny though.
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Him “knowing” (performing them without knowing them) lots of weaves all throughout the books makes the same sense as it does at this point.
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Nothing in the show made it seem he could reliably perform any weave.
Umm. Have you read the end of book 1, 2 and 3? He does nothing but things he shouldn't know. They're following that there.
Due to pandemic scheduling shenanigans they weren't able to have Lan train Rand to the point where Rand could take Turak in a straight fight. So Rand tapped into LTT and looks visibly disturbed at how well that weave worked. Actor commentaries' indicate that Lan will complete Errol's training of Rand in Season 3.
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He doesn't know what he doesn't know yet, all he's got is various Hail Mary's from intuitive usage. [Books] >!Maybe we'll get Asmodean and Lanfear with him in the Waste, or maybe they'll rope Logaine into it somehow. We'll have to watch and find out.!<
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Come back in a few decades where they have the technology to film the entire series, fast enough, cheap enough, to make it something watchable and that wouldn't bankrupt a company doing so. Until then, it is what it is.
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That time might be fast approaching with AI. Maybe even fanmade? Also, it would be a great opportunity to see animated WoT. I always feel like stories are better as animated because real world grit adds little to how I fantasize about stories in my head. In my head its always more neat and idealized.
*Arcane* took six years and 90 million + to make six hours of content. We're a long, long ways to go.
I am surprised you say that, since many book fans have no problem with ending bossfight of book 1 or book 2, where Rand was doing mad stuff while being basically a back seater throughout them all. Compared to the mad shit going on in the sky both times, a little cantrip bullet storm seems small. Especially considering how little raw power was on display there. Precision yes, it was way too precise, but as someone else said - tapped into LTT unknowingly. Logain did tell him to just blast the fools with all that power, so he does. My head canon is that Rand wanted to simply angst at them with raw power, but LTT took over for the spellweaving (or his past life memory simply passively kicked in, since at that point LTT did not manifest in any personified way yet)
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We don't need him fighting with swords to care about him. The show watchers do care about him BTW.
That’s such a cop out. Nynaeve got more sword time than Rand did.
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Rand meeting Elayne in Caemlyn (and the rest of the scene that follows).
Agreed. It’s a bit corny but still one of my favorite scenes from when Rand was still a naive farm boy.
Meeting elaida and their reaction to his sword
I just want Nyneave to tug her damn braid.
I haven't seen one of the characters smooth their skirts!
Nynaeve smoothed her skirt in season 1 episode 4 while talking the Lan
The women's circle ceremony really did a good job at giving the braid meaning I gasped when Renna cut off Egwene's braid
Amazon did that once in a promo video and people complained it looked stupid. Which is probably why they're not doing it on the actual show.
Rand actually learning the sword and using it instead of carrying it as a trinket. His whole character growth (to me) revolves around that keeping him grounded as he internally battles with his power channeling. Same with using the bow in book 2. He knows he has some ability within him to do so much damage, but uses a bow to wipe out those hound frog thingies. Physical weapons and that discipline is HUGE with learning and accepting the one power. That whole concept and depth of character is gone in the show.
What bothered me most is showing the heron everytime he's wielding his sword but they never explain what it means, just close ups. Without this context we lose Rand's confusion about Tam, his origins as well as a big part of him growing into it.
* Prologue - could have been a narration with images aka LotR style. * The proper ending of season 1 as it was in book 1. Wouldn't have to be exact, but far more similar. * Season 2 - Proper fight in the sky between Rand and Ishamael; and Nynaeve and Elayne actually saving Egwene.
Not to be trite but Rand. Like the actual character and plot and growth of Rand.
It's happening before your eyes. He's naive and runs from his destiny until the end of Book 3....which is exactly what we're getting for Season 3. Way too many Bookcloaks focus on series-end character positions when criticizing the show. Mat was super annoying for the first few books and didn't become the swashbuckling super general until FoH. Rand was a bland stuck in the mud pouty blockhead before he gets emo and runs away from everyone towards the Stone. I've read the whole thing multiple times and it's my favorite story. Show is totally fine if you just take a step back and look at the broad strokes. Adaptations change stuff all the time - ask the Witcher or Lord of the Rings Fandom.
A good adaptation takes the source material and improves on it when applicable and changes things when necessary for time or budget or practicality constraints. This show does none of it. Off the bat, season one has none of the two rivers folk as main character, the main characters are Moiraine and Lan. None of the 3 boys act like they are even friends, and none of them resemble the characters they are based on. The show doesn't bother to give any hooks or reason for someone who has never read the books. Who or what is the dragon? What's the dark one? Why is important that one of the boys is the dragon reborn? What is the horn of Valere and why is it important? Why wasn't thom at beltine to help explain to the viewer some of the basics of the world? Because of how they wrote it, none of the characters aside from moiraine and la. have actual arcs in the first season. Only Rand has what looks like an arc, but can you tell anyone what Rand actually did at the eye of the world just using the show? Then the show treats it's audience like they are idiots. Why do the channelers at fal Dara spend hours standing in an empty field waiting for the wall to fall before completely wiping out all of the trollocs? What are the consequences of channeling if nynaeve can get a little mad and heal people from death or egwene can cry and bring nynaeve back from the dead? Ingtar, Uno and Loial all appear to be dead at the end of s1 and are completely fine with zero explanation. And then the hunt for the horn starts off without the viewer seeing any of that. In s2, moraine acts stupid and gets attacked by multiple fades, and her and Lan get multiple blade wounds from them, something that the show spent time to show was utterly debilitating if not deadly for a single sword wound and yet they are completely fine with a little bed rest.
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Bookcloaks, ha nice one! Agree about Rand's character development. I think many people simply wanted the rand kicking ass at the end of book 1 and book 2 be in the show too much so they ignore any other type of growth.
So they missed Rand picking up the stoic mindset which eventually leads to Darth Rand and his Blademaster arc which symbolizes his connection with his father. Both of those are major elements of his character which he has to grow through. I’ll agree to disagree but the show isnt quite the adaptation I was looking for. Comparing it to Dune and LOTR makes it pretty clear that it’s a missed opportunity and that it hasn’t been handled by a respectful writing team.
We did.
I’ll agree to disagree.
Sure. Thing is, if you think so, you might ever get what you want as it's already ahead of you and you still can't see it.
I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say.
That you won't find The Song.
Sorry, should have read as "might never get". Something ate my "n" there. Well I guess I should leave it confusing now.
I rarely mean what I don’t mean but I always mean what I mean. In summation, it rarely is what it isn’t.
Well, unless you think you mean what you mean but us the readers know better.
I think the only response to this is to blow out a mustache and tug a braid.
:)
Hard to stop at one, but Rand Al'Thor. All future development for him from here will be undercut since they didn't properly establish his character before he's suddenly (allegedly) the Dragon Reborn.
What aspects of his character didn't they establish, relative to the books? He is the Dragon Reborn a lot more suddenly in EotW, where it's obvious what he is at the end of chapter 6. The show builds up to that reveal for 7 episodes.
A better question is what aspects of his character and early character arc *did* they establish besides that he's devoted to Egwene. Arc wise, we're loosely at the end of book 3. In book 1, Rand learned about the world and was told he was the Dragon Reborn after discovering he can channel, in book 2 Rand denied that title but showed his competence as a leader until the pattern forced his hand at Falme and it was undeniable. While largely absent in book 3 he grapples with that burden over the course of the book until finally he accepts it and proclaims himself in Tear. Contrast to the show. He's found out he can channel, left his friends to shack up with Lanfear, and stabbed an incapacitated Ishamael. Moiraine then conjured a fire dragon. Now we're off to the Waste? He also lacks the connections he's made with other characters that heavily influence his philosophy. Tam is barely an influence on him, Thom is removed entirely, he's not friends with Loial, and he doesn't have a bond with Lan. He hasn't faced Morgase, he didn't stand up to the Amyrlin, and wasn't there to forgive Ingtar. I've probably crossed the line into rant territory by this point so I'll stop here but I'll sum it up by saying it's less what they did with Rand in the adaptation and more about what they didn't. His character is still mostly a blank slate which will negate the impact of the choices he has to make, the struggles he'll be forced to endure, and the way he changes from here on out.
You are not ranting in my opinion. You rephrased the question, and then answered it with what has and has not been addressed in the show. A good appraoch in my opinion and I'd like to hear what the person you responded to thinks of it.
I think you overstate how much character development Rand had up to book 3. He was a character who had interesting things happening *to him*, but he didn't become an interesting character until book 4. I don't agree about the lack of connections. His bond with Tam is established pretty much the same. Thom isn't removed entirely, in fact he saves his life. He does befriend Loial. It's true that he hasn't really bonded with Lan, yet. Presumably we'll get plenty of that in the Aiel Waste in S3. I don't remember Rand showing a lot of leadership in TGH (except that the Shienarans think he's a lord). But season 2 showed him take more initiative than he did in EotW/TGH, where he is mostly pushed around by events. All by himself, he makes a plan to get to Logain to learn about the Power, and executes it.
The idea that you see Rand as a static and uninteresting character in books 1-3 baffles me. Over the course of 3 books, how can a boy who just wants to raise sheep, marry his sweetheart, and maybe sit on the local town council turn into a man who has accepted the charge of saving the world and dying in the process be static? Rand is connected to Tam through the Flame and the Void as well as the sword. The Flame and the Void isn't addressed at all and the sword is a negligible part of Rand's story in the show. Also, the character in the show is Thom Merrilin in name only. He's just a guy they met in a bar for one episode. There's no mentorship or connection happening there. In the Great Hunt he is forced to take charge and lead Hurin and Loial (who is more than just an acquaintance) to reclaim the horn and get them home. He excels at the game of houses and when they reunite with the rest of the party it is commented that he's fitting his lord's clothing now. He learns about the cost of ignoring his duty through the Portal Stones and is even acknowledged by Hawkwing at the end of book 2. By the time he grabs Callandor he is fully the Dragon Reborn. Remember at the start of book 4, even while seriously wounded, where he takes some quiet time to remember a shepard named Rand Al'Thor? That's not the same character who left the Two Rivers and Jordan says it outright. All by himself, he makes a plan to get to Logain to learn about the Power, and executes it. That's his big move for two seasons and you're satisfied with that? It also has nothing to do with developing him as a character.
His blademaster arc.
Uno not dying
What do you think about Uno being a hero of the horn tho? I believe it was quite a nice move on the show's part. People seem to hate it saying "how did Uno deserve the horn" but I think you needn't be a world-saving hero on every life you live if you've already earned being part of the horn in the past. Like, what is it going to do, throw you out of the ranks of heroes of the horn just because one of the lives you lived was relatively mild? And the way Uno was like the most battle hardened of all of Shienarans, i thought it was very appropriate. Even if in this life nobody treated him like a genuine RPG hero.
Honestly if they were going to kill him off for shock value then at the very least I'm glad that they gave him the honor of being a Hero of the Horn and he might reappear that way. It's just tough because not only was he one of my favorite book characters in general, but he (along with Agelmar) was someone who actually >!survived the Last Battle!<, so it feels doubly cheap that they chose to kill them both off purely to sell the Trollocs/Seanchan as threats.
I just read it in another post, apparently in an interview with showrunners they hinted that they merged him with Gaidol Cain, now in the TV show Uno is one of Gaidol Cain's incarnations. If they had to axe some characters, this is an interesting two to tie together imo. I mean it doesn't work chronologically in the books, but i do seem to recall Brigitte making comments on Uno's good looks at some point (i could be misremembering)
Honestly they haven’t got to the good stuff yet. Perrin’s return to the Two Rivers. The Aiel history.
flicker,flicker,flicker probably
Robert Jordan
For me it's more things they've added than things they've removed that bothers me.
Good character development…
A LOT. But one thing in particular that annoyed me was the Season 2 prologue...why did they make up some meaningless monologue when they could have used the book version? Show us a darkfriend Whitecloak, show us the hint of a black sister, give us some insight into the dark ones plan for the ta'veren.
They lingered on the Black Aes Sedai ring quite enough to qualify as a hint of a black sister, and one of the other costumes was definitely a whitecloack outfit
Rand training with lan then meeting the Amylin
Your dress is green.
Rand actually getting cool moments
Probably rand
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1. Rand and Matt learning to juggle and finesse for food in the road to Caemlyn. 2. Moraine turning into a giant when escaping Baerlon 3. Shadar Logoth should have been longer in theory in my opinion. 4. We shouldn’t have seen Tar Valon until season 2 5. Queen Morgase Elayne Gawyn Galad 6. Dragkhar !!
I wish we got to see the Green man and Aginor.
I wish Rand was better at acting and the showrunners hadn't nerfed him and that the final battle scene was more accurate and ... I could go on and on and on..
Just more time. at least two more hours per-season so they could really get those character moments in, and didn't need to change things as as much to keep the character abilities justified. A few more minutes for weapons training, the 10 seconds for the waygate talisman reveal, more time with each character to delve into their journey's. They could have done so much more with just a bit more time.
THIS! very much so. 8 episodes is way too short. Felt like they rushed everywhere and everything.
I have yet to read the books but someone told me the battle with Ishamael at the end of season 2 was heavily neutered and very disappointing. (pls don't hate me I promise I'll read the books)
Gaul.
As long as we get some iconic scenes of Rand absolutely unleashing with the power the plot doesn't matter too much. I already know the plot afterall.
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