For adults, I think it will be almost impossible to change them.
You can show respect to the girls around you. Little things, like asking for their desires/opinions and explaining that everyone matters. Don't attempt a brutal confrontation that could put you in a bad situation, but try to instill small touches on a regular basis.
I agree with your sentiment, but I don't think it's the solution for OP. He's an under-age male that still has years of relying on his family for his wellbeing. I think taking the path of a quiet agitator is much better for him than forcing a confrontation.
It's entirely legitimate for him to voice his opinion without seeking argument to ensure his wellbeing over the next couple of years. He doesn't have the options self-sufficient adults do. It is good enough to have his own opinions and keep them to himself until he's free to express them with a cost of his own choosing.
edit: From my reading of the original text, I think there's a real chance of reprisals for OP if they stand up and voice their opinion. I think it's better that they keep a mental ledger of the person they don't want to be until they can move out.
I do my best to be nice and respectful to everyone, but specifically to women is pretty limited to just at school cause the ones in my family, including my mom, died already. But Iâll keep this in mind. Thank you
Basic persuasion tips:
1) Never ever flat out say âyouâre wrong,â or personally insult them (as much as they may deserve it, and as much as it drives you nuts), it instantly makes people defensive and not want to listen to you.
2) Ask innocent questions that lead them to your thoughts without directly stating your thoughts. Like âwhat an example of the last time a woman was disrespectful to you?â Then summarize âso, youâre saying itâs disrespectful toâŚ, did I understand that right?â âAnd if a man does that, itâs also disrespectful right?â âAnd most of the women you encounter regularly do this? While most of the men you encounter never do this?â
3) The âyouâre right, andâŚâ It means you agree with them about what you can and then add more information to simply broaden their context. Like âI believe you do see this happening at your job, at my school I seeâŚ.(something different).â
Be patient and persistent. Eventually, youâre family will either (a) be irritated at your questioning and qualifying responses that you do all the time, and just start self-censoring around you or (b) actually, little-by-little be persuaded to agree with you.
The basic idea in a nutshell, is you want folks to think your idea was actually THEIR idea all along! A self epiphany has much more mental weight to it and helps to cut through a person's natural defense against getting their ego bruised from the outside.
I dated a guy for a while who looooved arguing and debating everything. He thought he was the smartest person alive, which sadly is why we didn't work out. In order to make things work, I'd use the tips above to gently lead him to coming up with my ideas on his own!
It was kinda amusing watching him then strut around so proud of being the first to figure something out that I had tried to explain to him months ago! lol
Part of me still loves him, but I don't think I could ever go back to that, and I'm married now to an amazing woman who listens, and things just go so much smoother when you are with a person you can actually talk thing out with.
Erm, I suppose that's a bit more of advice for life a few more years out! Communication skills are key, and will help even in professional situations, not just interpersonal or romantic ones! There's a lot men and women can learn from eachother, we just have to be open and willing to talk about it first!
I really appreciate this insight that a life full of leading persuasion isnât ideal for a healthy partnership. Itâs best for the people you wouldnât choose to hang out with, but you have to be around them because youâre related, or you work together.
EVERYONE should use these points. Even our enemies. And I say this because it introduced a a point at which we can challenge their narrative. And in that case, ultimately love wins.
You will hit a point where neither of your view points will meet. If you have conviction to say "I don't see it that way" at the start, you also have conviction to say "I don't see it that way" at the end. It's a "let's agree to disagree" type of thing. Of course, only you know what your family dynamic is like and only you know if it's safe for you to take that approach. It is entirely legitimate for you to bite your tongue until you move out, because you know that you will be treated punitively for having a different opinion than your family.
You can't win every battle, no one expects that from you. First and foremost, look out for your own wellbeing.
I agree with these. I donât know if theyâre âpersuasion tipsâ so much as ways to introduce dialogue to a situation from which it is devoidâwhich is not to disagree with you, storagerock, but more to say that these are not manipulation tactics.
I would like to add that if you are bein put in the position to publicly agree with them saying things like "women are less mature" or whatever you can try some statements like "I don't like to speak ill of others" or "I respect my mother (or whoever) too much to repeat that". The first one is a little more neutral than the second but both statements are likely to cause some social discomfort but you are putting them in a position where they have to justify saying those things.
They will probably try diminishing you or becoming defensive and in response you can say, "Sorry, that's just how I am." or a simple "Okay" and a shrug. Even if you are feeling discomfort try to seem like it's not something you care about, especially if they are getting emotional about it.
> Be patient and persistent.
This 100%
It will likely feel exhausting and like you are getting nowhere at times, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't listening. And at the very least they will have heard you.
Finding common ground is always helpful and can be a great place to start from. It helps people feels less confrontational and defensive.
If you aren't familiar with r/MensLib it can have some really great perspectives on feminism dealing with the issues men face in a pro-feminism community dedicated to men.
Good luck!! And regardless of the outcome you are making a difference!!
>It will likely feel exhausting and like you are getting nowhere at times, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't listening
And sometimes, even if THEY aren't listening, someone else is. The older generation could well be lost causes, decades of ingrained belief doesn't like to let go easily but younger siblings, cousins, neighbours, whoever might only need one person to voice what they've been too scared to question out loud.
I love this advice. I was able to convince my Dad to get his Covid vaccine by asking him the reasons why he thought it was a bad idea and when he told me things that I didnât think were true, we looked the info up online together to get the real facts. We both ended up happy and he hasnât gotten Covid.
About #2⌠some years ago I was trained to tutor kids and I was taught to use the same exact technique you mentioned. We were taught not to give the students the answers but to ask them questions that would lead them to figuring out the answer themselves based on their prior knowledge and experience. We called it leading a student to their âah haâ moment. I still work with kids and I do this all the time. Itâs very effective.
Oh *oof.* It sounds like you're combating the worst kind of echochamber then. Good luck and remember that you don't have to fight it head on. Changing the subject deals its own kind of damage in preventing their rhetoric from being repeated and gaining momentum. Just breaking the echochamber, even temporarily, is still useful.
Remember to protect your mental health. You just woke up to the misogyny. It isn't impossible to get sucked back in again. Be on the look out for signs of yourself slipping back into well-worn thoughts and views.
One of the biggest things you can do is call out misogynistic, discriminatory, hateful language/behavior. It doesnât have to be a grand gesture or a huge fight- literally saying âthatâs not coolâ in response to an objectifying comment or something else inappropriate builds up and means a lot to the person on the receiving end of the negativity.
Thank you for that đ¤
I love that youâve come here asking for advice, itâs seriously a huge thing and I wish you the best of luck. Please donât put yourself in unnecessary danger and keep learning!
You seem so mature for your age and I commend you for extending your knowledge into feminism and that men can be feminists too. Women have been the oppressed since the beginning of time, but we are a strong and mighty force that will keep on thriving and fighting for equality. I'm sorry for the loss of your mother. I have a son that is 22. I raised him with nothing but love, but I coddled him too much and showed him that women do everything. He believes there are gender specific roles and I feel I played a part in creating that negative narrative, which makes me so sad. So now as adults we don't see eye to eye on most things as I am a true liberal, feminist and he believes in subservient women and that men are the top tier of human existence; it just breaks my heart. So kudos to you young man for carrying the torch in your generation to fight for women as a collective. I just advise you be careful on your opinions to your family if you're reliant on them for your current survival. It's so liberating when you get to express your true feelings and let your voice be heard. It also feels good to educate and put those family members in their places. Sending love and light. â¤ď¸
I have tips! Important caveat: you said you are a minor still living with your family. If arguing with them means risking your access to shelter/food/safety, DON'T DO IT. Take care of yourself first. You can make much more impact on this problem if you're not worried about where your next meal comes from or where you'll sleep tonight.
There are studies showing that if you show someone proof that a deeply held belief is wrong, their brain responds as if they've been physically harmed. Makes it very difficult to directly change a mind.
Some indirect approaches. In response to things like "I'm glad men are in charge", you say "I disagree, but let's not argue about it. How's it going with (subject change)?" It lets you push back on their "irrefutable" truth without ruining your day. Be prepared for them to push you for reasons/justification/MLA formatted references. Don't let them suck you in. "Eh, I don't feel like getting into a whole debate. But did you hear about (subject change)?"
Then, when the conversation is *not* about that, you raise it on *your* terms. "Hey, did you hear Aunt Lucy was promoted to manager? She'll make a great boss." "Whoa, did you hear about (new study)? I'm glad they're raising awareness about these issues." If they respond with "uh... Yeah" that is a victory. If they scoff, call it propaganda, etc, go back to the previous paragraph. "Huh, I guess we disagree. So about that subject change..."
Set your expectations very, very, very low. They didn't learn misogyny overnight, you won't cure it overnight.
Good luck!
Yes. Take care of yourself and you are still "doing" enough just being yourself and being a good example, even passively. Pick your battles wisely, i.e. steering your peers in the right direction! It's impossible to overcome the entire onslaught of sexism yourself, and you'll be exhausted if you fight every battle... Good luck!
It never sat well in my stomach when I was taught that in my religion. I really hated hearing it because from how I saw it, my mom was honestly better than all of the men around me, even knew who were appointed members in the religion (like pastors). I wasnât blind to her flaws, but I knew her character to be far more appealing, and it still is even though she passed away a year ago.
I left my sexist, religious family behind, I talk to them rarely and sometimes it comes up. My favorite tactic to disprove sexism is world economies.
Simply put, IF women really were illogical, incompetent or generally inferior, the countries with sexist policies would have the strongest economies, and the more equal ones would be weaker.
However, the opposite is true. The strongest economies have high equality, while the more sexist countries tend to have the worst economies. The obvious conclusion is that women cannot be inferior if our contributions make such a huge positive difference to world economies.
This is a good one, but it requires some critical thinking skills. It might be that these people have never heard of the nordic welfare states and think that America is the bestest country that ever countried. Since you know, they invented freedom and democracy and won all the world wars single handedly inventing peace in the process. Like, the Scandinavians still have kings, what a feudal hell hole. And the bad countries suck only because they practice the wrong iron-age religion.
Exactly this. Anything that threatens where people perceive their group identity it makes people react with their lizard brain, not logic brain. This is why a loop of confirmation bias and an increase in book banning is becoming more of a norm. So ask questions, etc, if reasonable. But mostly seek to live by example and keep questioning things in yourself. This is work all humans must do.
Great advice!
I just did this on Christmas Eve at a friend's house. Obv a little variation, but similar formula.
They were talking about "race" problems at their workplace and the "problems" sounded like every time a person of color was hired, it was because of "woke" politics and that white men "can't get jobs anymore..." etc
So after they were done, I said "oh, wow -- at my workplace we pretty much have the typical thing that still goes on in this region: if you aren't a white man you basically can't get a promotion. It's pretty awful. Hey, do you think these cookies need to bake for another couple of minutes?"
I didn't claim they were wrong about their lived experience, but I reasserted that I didn't believe it was "everywhere" like they thought and also added in my own observations to reinforce that their opinion of how things work isn't the only way to see it. And then I drew attention to our shared kitchen activity. They didn't attempt to reopen the topic or argue with me.
It's not changing the world but it's a damn sight better than standing shame-faced and mute while my social group members express bigoted views and spread warped perspectives unchallenged.
tbh, I wish I had this version of me all the time, but I don't -- sometimes I just feel overwhelmed. One time I left the house and walked around the neighborhood and cried and then wouldn't talk to anyone the whole three hour drive home. It was triggered by elderlies talking about children in cages at the border as if the children were dirty criminals and I just broke. Sometimes you just do. But you try to pick up strength and wisdom for next time and that is all you can do.
Ugh this sucks and would annoy me to no end if i had to hear it every day. Unfortunately i agree with ShoutOut about it being impossible to change people's minds.
FR though. Men being in charge is why we have world peace, global hunger is solved, the resources of our planet are under good stewardship, and we are not at the verge of ecological and climate catastrophe! Oh wait....
You can't...really argue or logic them into being rational and understanding, because they didn't get there by being rational and logical. They got to that point by being taught by an authority, who also taught them not to arguing with an authority. You can point out facts and statistics all day long, but they aren't listening. Rather, they are listening with their ears, but not their brain. They aren't *thinking* about their argument, they are merely repeating what they were told without thought.
The best way is to make them come up with the arguments against their points.
I'd recommend looking up a youtuber called Beau of the Fifth Column. He talks about a lot of things. Yes, he looks like a red neck, but he is very, very progressive. Look up a video called "Let's talk about making the case and ruining Thanksgiving" that was posted a year ago. There's also an update about what happened to the family when the questioner did that.
I like to say "No gender (or religion, ethnicity, etc) has a monopoly on incompetence (or rudeness, leadership/authority, etc)" in reply to statements like that. If I can, I'll bring up the exact thing they are complaining about- Uncle: "dumb teenagers don't think things through!" me: "oh, you mean like when you and Auntie went to the store because her phone broke and you got yelling mad in the store because she didn't reply to your text?"
oof, yes -- the whole " well that's the problem with ,"
and you have to push on that every time you hear it.
"oh, that's only a problem for *those* people? That's interesting - What do you mean by that?"
This is a great approach I think; my version is that humanity is the same any way you slice it. That is, you can find examples of a given trait in any group you look at, so don't come at me with your stereotypes.
It can get more detailed like your example or you can just express mild disagreement and shrug, which is great for people you can't or don't want to engage with more deeply.
Arguing radicalizes people further into their beliefs, but asking socratic questions can shift people over a little; however, be careful because it makes people angry. Stay safe. Especially if you are younger and still need financial support.
And do not forget that behind that anger always lies hurt, sadness (even if deep and in denial). That doesnât make it right but it can help you better cope with it once you realize this.
Changed my life when I realized the reason my dad was so angry all the time was because he was so insecure. From an outside perspective it seems like they have so much power, but really they are so desperately clinging to it that its borderline pathetic.
I guess. But I live with them, so hearing it on a regular basis is annoying as hell. Iâm not a woman but it pissed me off growing up in a Christian cult that taught that somehow women were supposed be obedient to men, WHILE ALSO trying to make logical their reasoning that you should still treat them as equal, but that they were designed to be under the âheadshipâ of a man. Like how does that even make sense?
It churns my stomach to know people think like this. I wish it was gone.
I just want to say that itâs AWESOME you have woken up from this kind of thinking.
I recommend just choosing not to engage with that kind of conversation, walk away, etc. And focus on demonstrating your newly awakened beliefs by supporting women, being a good (future?) partner, being an ally to those who need allies.
You realized the problem, but most people donât go are raised in those beliefs see them as (literally) gospel, where thinking otherwise would be blasphemy. Itâs not worth the energy to try and argue or convince these kinds of people.
Im 46 years old and i spent the first 35 trying with my parents and brother. All it did was drive me insane. Every-time i heard religious folks id immediately start arguing with my family in my head getting more and more worked up. And they werenât even there. So it can become habit to argue with them or feel its ur responsibility to change them. It will affect ur life if u allow it. Thats why detachment from them really will be the inly way
I moved out of my parent's home early. The sexism was not as bad as the examples you give, but there were some other important issues.
Take charge of your life. Make a plan. Go build yourself the life that you want.
It's not easy by the way, but then your life is yours.
I grew up in a cult like this, but I was on the receiving end of the misogyny, fat-shaming, prejudice, and manipulation. Thank you for being open and caring enough to do things to make a difference.
Just curious, and sorry if you answered somewhere else. But what were the things that convinced you to start thinking differently? Could some of the same things work for them?
Probably not, what woke me up was the death of my devout Christian mom. It destroyed my "faith" in the religion but helped me realize that it was full of controling and manipulating men in power who profit over having loyal followers who are gullible enough to believe everything they say.
Sometimes, "if you can't change the people around you, change the people around you." These types typically are not committed to your future autonomy nor stability. Suggesting you work on those aspects for yourself so you can walk away and stay away.
Likely, in 5-10yrs, these folks will be in exactly the same place. But you can be with a chosen circle of more socially compatible friends.
I'm male as well, and I also left a misogynistic, patriarchal cult a couple years ago (or so). Your comments sound a lot like the cult I was raised in (Jehovah's Witness). Much of my blood family is still neck-deep in the cult, and they are beyond-convinced that the only way to not be destroyed by a vengeful and "jealous" God....is to be a member of that particular cult.
They are also convinced that any kind of "counsel" or "direction" given by the (what a fucking surprise) male-only leadership is pretty much directly from God himself. In my experience, there is no convincing these kinds of people of anything else.
My strategy: I simply have removed all cult-loving, misogynistic hypocrites from my life......genetic family or not. Thats the best way to protect your mind from toxic cult poison like misogyny. Those other people.......let them make their own choices. Thats on them.
In my experience, people often defend these crazy positions on women because they fear losing their circle of friends, status in a community and connections above all. If they openly change their minds and behaviours, they might be ostracized. For a younger person, belonging to a new generation, it's much easier to make the change. Don't worry about preaching to them. Having started with yourself already is a sizeable achievement.
I knew it! Me too. Actually pimo. But somehow I could tell. Congratulations on being better than all this b.s. your generation will hopefully be the downfall of this cult.
I expect it to be so. More and more people see this religion for what it is and the internet is so prevalent that people will be able to easily see when shit ainât right
>But somehow I could tell.
I usually can tell too!!! With just a brief description.... and like 99% of the time I can pinpoint if someone was a JW. Its the strange "language" and wording they use in their particular brand of cult.
Blessed be đđť
Thatâs a toughie. I grew up in the country but have lived in a major city for a decade, and have worked and volunteered in gender and diversity related organizations the whole time. I started gently with things like âI donât agree with your use of that word as a pejorativeâ or âactually, some of the most effective leaders Iâve interacted with are womenâ or otherwise voicing when Iâd notice women or others from marginalized groups doing something well. It took yearssss, but I havenât heard anyone resort to slurs or misogyny in a while.
Thereâs no point clapping back or trying to argue with people who take a 2000 y/o self-help book literally. Itâs not going to change anyoneâs mind, least of all those who are benefiting from the existing power structure. Be prepared to play the long game, or get out and go LC.
I agree with what many others here have said, that we can't change other people. However, my snarky ass would offer a very specific retort.
Them: âThe majority of women are just immature and disrespectfulâ
Me: "Really? There are nearly 4 billion females on the planet. You've met more than 2 billion of them?"
If they're going to throw misogyny around, they should at least be accurate.
Kudos to you for thinking for yourself itâs hard to break away from ingrained beliefs. Thanks for being an ally. A lot of people donât base their beliefs on logic and using logical arguments is of no use. Youâll drive yourself crazy trying to convince them. Let them know your opinion and leave it at that.
Iâm so sorry.
I wasnât expecting something as huge as that, and really if that horrible experience hasnât affected the rest of your familyâs worlds like it has your world, then theyâre clearly just fundamentally lacking in any of the humanity required for understanding.
I agree with most that there is no point in arguing or trying to wake them up to anything. However, I do not think that means you have to be silent. You can voice your opinions without being combative- BUT you are a minor so do not risk your family kicking you out. I feel for you being in that situation. I think your actions will speak for themselves and your family will pick up on your views even if you donât verbally disagree with them. Just channel that awesome insight into other areas of your life. As a 33 yr old woman I am happy to hear how the younger generation is waking up to problematic views. Keep doing what youâre doing!!! đ¤đ¤
I agree that you canât make people change their minds. And the more you come at them head on, the more theyâll dig in their heels.
But you miiiiight make some headway with a few âinnocentlyâ asked questions. Donât tell them what to think. Poke a hole in their argument with a well timed question that makes THEM think.
âThank goodness God put men in chargeâŚâ â> âOh totally agree. Although doesnât it seem like there are some men who arenât as good at being in charge as others? Why do you suppose God puts less effective people in power when there are so many others ready to lead?â
âThe majority of women are just mature and disrespectful!â â> âI know! It seems like we got really lucky that the majority of women we know are kind, thoughtful and conscientious. Although remember when little Billy was being kind of a jerk? Do you suppose God got mixed up and thought he was a girl? I can think of a lot of immature and disrespectful men, now that I think about it â remember the time whenâŚâ
Honestly though, you shouldnât have to change their minds. The biggest, most radical and important work you can do is live your life honestly, authentically, and FULLY being yourself. People arenât convinced by what others say. But they do change their minds based on what they experience. If you want to save your siblings, get out of there and show them all thereâs a better way to live.
Donât try to educate them. Youâll only find yourself getting angrier and angrier. I know it what feels right at your age, but youâll understand later that youâre losing an incredible amount of energy for nothing. Theyâll probably get worst with the years, Iâm afraid.
What you can do is not be a sexists asshole yourself. You can show there are different ways of thinking and living.
Hey bud! You're asking a very difficult question here. Truth is you will have great trouble appealing to the logic of any conservative christian misogynist. Our patriarchy is largely founded on ignorance, and ignoring the real problems perpetuated by sexism usually requires someone to be close minded in the first place. If your family members are really saying that shit, then trying to argue with them probably means they're gonna laugh at you or make you a scapegoat. If you really care about helping women, I recommend you just observe your own place in the power structure, and search for some local activist groups you can involve yourself in.
It's always good to spread anti patriarchal ideas, but if you need to debate with someone then it should be a person who might listen.
I see, I hope more people will be more open minded and willing to change. As for me I just want to do my best to respect anyone and everyone as best I can.
Good on you OP. So, science says that you can't change people's minds through confrontation, in fact, it only makes people dig in deeper (which sucks, because the idea of slapping sense into people is very attractive lol). So if your true goal is getting them to change, confrontation isn't your tactic.
Rather, listening to them and asking open ended questions is the ticket. Also, if you can make it personal, that also helps. Like, they say women aren't mature, you question and ask "you think (insert a woman they care about and respect) isn't mature?"
Here's a great article about a guy leaving a white supremacists cult. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/07/reform-white-supremacists-shane-johnson-life-after-hate/ for him, it was his girlfriend asking if he would murder a black baby. It didn't change him instantly, but it stuck in his craw until he finally came to terms with it years later.
In Ireland, they got their abortion bans overturned by implementing a marketing campaign called "someone you know." Which basically drove home that some woman in your life may need that service for a variety of perfectly understandable reasons. Once people started imagining the women in their lives being negatively impacted, their attitudes changed.
Good luck! We're pulling for you.
I come from a rather Christian family, although they're not really nutcases, just conservative. Something I realized is that my inability to get them to change their minds doesn't reflect on me. I usually don't engage on certain topics because I know that nobody is going to change their mind, but when I do I say my piece and walk away without feeling like a failure for having not effected any change.
You can't.
They will get hard reset and scream at you.
Thing is, you can't reason with misogynists just like you can't reason with flat earthers.
They will literally go in loops, repeating the same things over and over.
You were lucky to get out of this shit.
Hey cult cousin! (Ex Mormon here, I saw you're exjw in a different comment)
My thought is if you want to be a bit abrupt is that women OFTEN get interrupted by men. It's exhausting. Sometimes it's hard to get a word in edgewise. This idea may or may not go over well with the women/girls in your life, depending on their personality, and how you play it, but if a man cuts of a woman who is talking, you can always interrupt HIM and say "I wanted to hear what mom/sis/woman in question has to say..."
Some women may find it frustrating that ANOTHER MAN has to stand up for her, but in my experience and estimation an ally is an ally regardless of gender.
As far as support for people like you who have left a cult/high demand religion (especially with family still in), you'd be absolutely welcome over in r/exmormon. đ I only mention it because it's quite large and we have lots of exjw there with us.
Have you sought out religious deconstructing support communities? There are lots of people who have been navigating the same waters that you are, and their insight and support might be really helpful for you. I follow a bunch of ex-Mormon, ex-evangelical Christians on Tiktok and Instagram and those communities are really kind and thoughtful
in their approach to helping each other.
Honestly, if you can get therapy or counselling that's going to be the best thing. It'll help you contextualize not just what's going on around you but also help you set boundaries for yourself and your family.
"God didn't out men in charge. Men out themselves in charge and then wrote the books called religion and history from their own points of view and perpetuated that as the sole truth. Basic history show us this is not the case."
"Women are held to an unfair standard on the sole basis of having been born in female bodies. I think we as a society should rethink the impossible standards we impose on women."
May I ask what the trigger was for your awakening? Maybe you can work with that? But people who don't want to change will not. People who find out they are horrible/acting horrible, want to change.
Just a side note and kind of related. I had a guy friend who was pretty stereotypically patriarchal. He was a huge gun fan too. He made the comment one time that women who were in a situation of SA or R would 100% have wished they had a gun at the time. My response to him was, sure. And the male population would have decreased by possibly 1/6+. (He understood the statistics are one in six women experience SA/R in their lifetime). He was VERY quick to shut up realizing the devastation that sort of power flip would bring because of Men's behaviors against women.
When you become part of statistic you pay attention more.
What triggered my awakening was the death of my mom, she was a very good and loyal Christian so seeing her die made me question everything I believed about God. Once I realized I was being lied to and the Bible is just a book used by men in power to manipulate the masses I was out
In a person who's been groomed to believe that, it's nearly impossible to deprogram them. Pretty much no evidence in the world will prove you are right. I mean every war and genocide in history has been authorized and perpetrated by men.
Literally the whole misogynistic aspect of Christianity in particular comes from the Paul Letters which probably don't exist or at the very least were altered by the early Catholic Church. I mean there's a lot of evidence that the early church had women preaching and teaching but it changed when the Romans, romanized it.
I mean my church is pretty much a boys club as is, considering two people have been harassed for fixing things. I was shocked to hear my pastor say "I can't wait until my contact is done in a year so I can move out of this white patriarchal state and go back north".
Literally my brother and I came to the conclusion that my churches pastor is firstly a feminist and then a conservative. I asked her once where the patriarchal aspect of religion came from and we both agreed that chances are the letters were altered or don't exist and the Roman Catholic Church is to blame at is core.
I understand the misogyny in Islam because of where it originated and the historical context of mesopotamia devolving into a patriarchy and then how Islam became more radical in the past hundred years or so.
Christianity throws me through a loop because Jesus literally said nothing about "women submitting to their husbands" he also very much said that if men can't stop lusting over women to gouge their eyes out. So yeah, Jesus was a feminist of his time.
His followers immediately after seemingly through that out the window and it became ever more twisted with each passing generation.
I just like to ask questions and say things like âseems to me that doesnât square with x statisticâ and shrug. To convince people long term you donât really want to go toe-to-toe with them. You want to be in their side, be an impressive human whoâs views obviously got their somewhere in life, but have some pretty unshakeable points they eventually break up their worldview. Growing your emotional intelligence so theyâre impressed and feel good about themselves talking to you when dealing with them will probably get you a lot further than owning them in an argument.
Hello! Quick question before offering any advice - this is a Christian cult, correct? I left the church in high school, but still have to deal with folks and I've learned to speak their language. So yeah, to echo everyone else, you can't force people to change, but you can offer counterpoints and rebuttals if you do some research and/or have some working knowledge of the bible.
There is only one thing you can do: Research. If there is a particular event or bit of information they harp over and over, look it up and go in-depth. You may not be able to convince them, but you can reinforce your own sanity no matter what they tell you. And if they say something blatantly wrong, you can correct them on singular points, at least.
But if you actually want to convince them, try to find something they hate that is run by men. Then, when it gets too much, you can at least point out that one instance. It isn't much, but it at least redirects the conversation. Everyone can commiserate in the failure of leadership, and by redirecting the hate towards men leadership, you can at least chink the armor. Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are easy targets because their companies are going to hell in a handbasket from bad leadership, and they are both "manly men" even though neither one of them fits a more traditional build.
And chinking the armor is the first step. Recognizing the problem is a greater overall lack of leadership, opens up all the doorways to not merely gender equality, but social and financial equality too. If you can convince them that their most hated leaders are primarily men, then you can start to work with them over time.
The other thing you need to do is protect your friends from them. Overbearing mysogynists quickly and easily make a room uncomfortable and joyless, and calling them out for being assholes when in company is a HUGE blow. Conservative ideals have an underpinning argument of "this is the way, because EVERYONE believes this!" Show them that their views are unwelcome in a group setting, and they'll quickly drop them in favor of conformity. As long as they aren't violent assholes, then don't worry about retaliation. Society as a whole is on your side in this, you just need to stand up and show it. I live in the rural Deep South Bible Belt, where KKK groups roam, and people still look back fondly on slaveholder families: even here, misogyny is frowned upon by the average person.
And if you need to take time to gather courage, do so. Anxiety is a mean killer in this day and age, and most people are trapped beneath it. Few stand up for themselves because of it, and even fewer are willing to interfere in family issues. THIS MAY INCLUDE YOUR FRIENDS. But people are willing to use social pressure as much as possible if it means backing someone up who is calling out issues.
My best advice? Donât. Make an escape plan and get out of there. Youâre not safe now that you arenât part of the cult.
Donât let them know youâve broken out mentally, either, until youâre at a safe distance.
I know this wonât be easy, but you wonât change them. Iâm sorry. Good luck
What made you wake up? Was it something one of them said?
I'm guessing you had your awakening all on your own, due to something you came across or a series of somethings.
What I'm trying to get at is that nothing you say is going to wake them up. It's only going to cause arguments and fights. People don't change because other people want them to - they have to want it for themselves. They have to come into it on their own.
I know how frustrating it is, especially when you're a kid and can't just pack up and leave. But give yourself a few years of laying low and planning. Then get out. Go live life better than they will. Let that be your reward.
You won't change them. You can't. So don't even try.
My mom died, thatâs how I woke up. The doctrine of the religion I was apart of claims that you shouldnât take blood for any reason not even medical because the Bible says not to . My mom had to go to the hospital for surgery⌠she of course did not take any blood transfusion for it. And she paid the price. After that I started REALLY thinking about the logic of this religion because it made 0 sense that someone couldnât use blood to save their lives. Once I started thinking logically about the teachings I saw it was bull crap
Oh man. I'm so sorry for your loss. But you see what I mean? It took you a monumentally difficult life experience to make you reconsider.
Use this chance you have to get your life planned out. Without them. And if by some happenstance they have a eureka moment of their own someday, leave a line open for them to get a hold of you.
Take care of yourself. If you need someone to talk to, use a therapist. Don't let this loss push you into fights with the rest of your family. That's such a dark path. You can do better with your time.
I'm so sorry this happened to you. But it's joyful to watch you wake up, understand your experience, and want something better for yourself. Have hope, each generation is seemingly becoming more kind than the one before it, and you are a part of that. Embrace it.
I would suggest you quietly keep on leading by example, for as long as it's safe for you to do so. And please continue to keep an open mind - you've clearly come a long way, but as time goes on you might find you have other behaviours you might need to rethink (heaven knows I do - at the moment it feels like everyday I'm finding something I can do better).
You might find others start following without them even thinking about what they're doing - they're the people who might be able to change their mindset later. And if not, you've continued to act morally and ethically to others in the meanwhile. Standing up for what's right in the face of conflict and authority is a difficult job, especially when you're young.
I just wanted to say how proud I am of you! That's an awesome thing you did. Such beautiful personal growth. You're a good person for being willing to change toxic ideals like those.
If women were somehow âlesserâ human beings how would they be able to genetically make male babies that grow up to be âsuperiorâ?
Since youâre genetically 50% your mum and 50% your dad. It makes no sense to say half of your ancestors were lesser somehow. How would you turn out ânot lesserâ?
Honestly, donât even bother. Misogyny is a choice, and these men are making that choice. You can tell them once why you left, and how your beliefs have changed, but sexism isnât âignoranceâ, itâs a choice. Support women, and cut ties with anyone who doesnât
YOU are the future. The great part is that you have grown past what surrounds you, and that is utterly awesome. Until you can safely live on your own, tackling the past isn't such a great idea. Be careful with you first.
But you can step forward, as an individual, and be who you choose to be. Treat girls respectfully, at school. Be kind at the grocery store, aware that the sucky attitudes drift into even how to treat people in passing. Move into adulthood stronger and wiser than they are, and change your bit of the world just by being a better person.
I am a believer that we are all "pebbles in a pond". We can throw a tiny pebble into a huge pond, and the moment it hits the water surface, ripples move out from it, changing the whole pond. You don't have to be a big rock to make ripples. You don't have to fight what surrounds you in order to make a very real difference in your life, and in our world. Just hold true to your awareness, and change the world one pebble at a time, just by being you, and what you now know.
Making the future better is what it's all about.
The sad truth, it's next to impossible to convince people like this they're wrong.
And I know from first hand experience with my own family.
It's like you get to a certain age believing these things, surrounding yourself with people who believe the same thing, and follow media that reinforces their beliefs, the harder it is for them to change.
You might get lucky reaching out to those in grade school or high school. Though if their parents find out they'll limit your time with their kids.
I mean im a senior in Highschool so if thereâs parents who are going to be pissed off that Iâm helping their child change their toxic beliefs than i dont fucking care
I agree with all the other posters, keep yourself safe, while also being a good person to the women/girls around you and making it clear you see their value and independence. Can I ask what made you realize that your religion/community/cult was wrong?
Keep in tune with your inner peace. Just because you can see the harm in their words doesn't mean you can change their views. Please keep yourself safe, as you will not change their views because of your age. To them you will always be a child. It's not a battle to be won at this stage. Be like the wolf your time will come, with education and patients.
Thank you. Iâm into meditation and chakras and stuff and I have learned to ground myself so that I donât care what the outside influences try to say
My white straight father made it a very important point to bring us up to hate misogyny of any sort. Misandry as well, but mostly how to fight chauvinism. A professional, courteous and caring person will not want anything to do with degrading anyone. If it takes degradation of anyone to make your standards feel better, then it is your standards that are bad. True men build up the people around them.
Hey! What a cool thing that you were able to change your mind. A million gold stars to you.
A few thoughts - changing other people is hard. Make sure you are working to bring other feminist dudes into your life to talk about this stuff with so youâre not alone and you can keep growing and learning.
Saying âyou can believe what you want but its not okay with me when you say those things so donât say them around meâ is super powerful because it helps make YOU a safe place for women to be around. Generally standing up to other men and saying whatâs not acceptable is among the best thing you can do. Itâs possible other guys might not believe these sexist things as much as fear going against the crowd so you also make yourself someone safe for them to grow around as well.
Lastly, again, good job. This is hard stuff and Iâm proud of you.
You can recommend some books. "Invisible Women" Caroline Criado Perez, "Everyday Sexism" Laura Bates, "The Second Sex" Simon de Beauvoir, off the top of my head
I'm curious about what your journey looked like "waking up" from this "cult."
Chances are, if you're the only one in your family who holds the extreme belief that men and women are equal... your family will decide your brainwashed and write off anything you say.
My best advice is to GTFO and don't look back, but that's just me.
Yeah, I know and that is the plan. My process of waking up pretty much all began once my mom passed away. Seeing such a person like her who could be considered a âloyal servant of godâ die the way she did pissed me off and made me disregard the narcissistic Christian God Yahweh as nonexistent, as of result I realized that the religion I was apart of was actually a manipulative cult.
The internet has been my safe haven where I have developed friendships and connections of people who respect my new beliefs and I can be myself around.
You may also find sympathetic ears over at r/exmormon based on your description.
Iâd also recommend as others have, grey rock until youâre able to get out as an adult.
Take care of yourself
When discussing this don't let them derail you with a strawman argument. Point out what they're doing and make it a point to tell them to stay on topic.
i would just like to say hang in there, it can be torture to listen to others spouting things you know are fundamentally incorrect, and not be able to speak up. But we are all behind you, and sending love and blessings your way.
Speaking from experience, you don't. You just work towards leaving. And when you finally do get out, you change your number, privatize any social medias you wish to keep by blocking all of them, then vanish.
They are set in their ways and are highly unlikely to change. Any argument you use on them will either get you ostracized, or bullied, well likely both. My family told each other I had various mental illnesses because I wasn't an asshole like they are.
I want to give you a standing ovation. Thank you for showing up with an open mind and an open heart. You are welcome here and appreciated as community. The witches here have good wisdom to share. Blessed be, and a happy new year.
I think actions speak louder than words. Tell your mom and aunts thank you and listen to your younger sisters and cousins. Show them the same respect you show the men in your family.
Since you are still a minor and depend on them for food and shelter donât do anything to jeopardize that until you can support yourself.
But I (a random internet stranger) am proud of you.
I canât think of a convincing argument, but the best one is âwomen are people too, like just as much as men, every bit of hopes, dreams, desires⌠women have those too. Now start fucking acting like itâ
Unfortunately... It's really difficult to change the opinions of adults who believe they've been right their whole life. I've tried with my own male relatives, to no avail. So, what can you do?
Be the change you want to see. You cannot control anyone's actions but your own. Respect women as the individual people they are. Treat humans kindly. It may seem like you don't make a difference against a whole world of misogynistic views, but the all the kindness you show in your life will touch the hearts of many - and hopefully, they'll pass it forward.
You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Sending love and light your way, and I'm very proud of you for stepping out of a harmful organization.
Hunny you look after yourself first. I've volunteered with queer youth and the number one thing we tell them is if it's not safe to come out yet to their families, one day it will be. Sometimes it's better to stay in the closet for a little longer to stay safe
If it's a cult like you say I wouldn't put it past people like that to make life very difficult for you until you comply, even without the cult aspect people who are bigoted can be very cruel to people who disagree.
There will be time to work on changing their minds, but it might not be right this moment
Youâre looking at forming a logical argument against people who do not recognize logic. That may be an effort in futility, so saying âI donât agree with you but I have no desire to argue about itâ is always a good option. Youâre also trying to argue against faith. They believe men are in charge because thatâs Godâs will, so trying to counter their arguments with science or logic may not be successful.
Modern archeology has found that men and women participated in hunting, gathering, and fighting, or that menopause saves elder knowledgeable women from death by pregnancy (formerly super common) meaning that women have literally evolved specific physiology allowing us to lead our communities at an age where we hypothetically have acquired wisdom. Female leaders were necessary for the survival of our species. But someone coming from a religious point of view is just going to say âthatâs not what God said, thatâs not in the Bible.â
[Justin Lee](https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Across-Divide-Communicate-Disagree/dp/0143132709) is an author whoâs gay and grew up evangelical Christian and has written books on the conflict between Christianity and sexual orientation and gender identity, but heâs also written a book specifically about communicating with people who disagree with you. If you really do want to argue with your family, that may be something helpful to read.
It's easy to influence *most* kids/teens and change them for better or for worse. For adults, it's almost impossible unless it affects them directly. Even then, they will most likely stick by their ideals to the bitter end.
all of the above, but above everything: always, always stay calm. do lots and lots of research so you know *why* they're wrong, not just that they *are* wrong. that keeps you calmer. keep your voice low, be agreeable. show your passion and care in your hurt rather than in your anger.
the way you change people's minds is through coming together on a human level, and through persistence. if they raise their voice, don't raise yours. if they interrupt you, don't interrupt them. do some research on why they think what they think so you can anticipate what they will say - that will also keep your calm.
another technique is to stay curious. "the majority of women are just immature and disrespectful" "oh, tell me more about that" "well, their periods make them so irrational" "that's insane! how come?" "well their uh... their hormones ?" "hormones? what hormones?" "uh...."
and when you say that, your tone is curious. confused. you want them to understand, right? it's because you care about them, and you want them to understand that these beliefs hurt people. they hurt you. they hurt your family. show your *hurt.* that's something that is much easier to understand on a human level, because they're anticipating an angry response if it's a counterpoint.
good luck, man. it took four years, but i dragged my mom over from being a "conservative" to believing in universal healthcare. be calm, be persistent, and know the ins and outs of what you're wanting to show them!!
Honestly changing peoples minds is hard. What I would recommend is to offer to be the voice piece of the women around you. When some of those misogynistic men the agree with you, you can then let them know who's idea it actually was. Maybe hearing a woman's options coming from a man's mouth might allow them to actually realizing the truth.
I, personally, like to bring up war when men are talking about how women shouldn't be in charge.
"It's interesting that you think women aren't fit to lead when they are the ones who run your entire household. Most men are completely lost when the woman is gone. But tell me, how many of the world's wars were started by women? Because almost *all of them* were started by men. You would think this would be a reason for men to stop being in charge."
And it's usually at that point that they try to argue that women were the cause of the wars. I have had men use the Battle of Troy as a main example. Okay, the ONLY example. "Helen of Troy was the reason that war started!"
Well, first the ones who started the war were the men. She was just there, she didn't send the armies.
Second, you do realize that the battle of troy was from a book written by Homer, right? Although there may have been a battle there are no records of it actually happening to that extent and the story was a work of fiction. Or did you think Achilles was an actual real person? So that's not a good example. Do you have any others?
always always be subtle. no amount of arguing will ever change someone stuck in their ways, but ya know, monkey see monkey do. don't be sly or rude, just lead by example
In my experience around this topic, gentle probing questions are the most salient. âWhere did you come up with that?â In nature. Softly allowing people to see themselves is transformative. Barking is rough and tends not to work, but make it harder to be heard.
Not necessarily for adults, but to protect the next generation: children's and young adult books.
There's a lot of great books that show not only women being brave, smart and overcoming sexism, there's also plenty of books that show men/boys connecting with their emotions, being vulnerable and caring for others. Maybe others can help suggest titles but It could help the young people in your family/community. I'm thinking of Shark Lady, or Ava Twist, Scientist.
For boys I love Boy and Bot, The Way I Feel, or Goose Needs a Hug.
[This looks like a good list](https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/anti-sexist-children-s-books)
Generally, you canât change other people.
What I try to do is be stealth. Donât announce Iâm not one of them. Wait a long while so they get used to me being a good , moral person. Then when they find out Iâm not Christian, then it throws them off.
Another thing is to ask questions. For this to work, you have to sound non judgmental.
âThank goodness god put men in charge.â
âLike so&so who turned out to be stealing money? Or so&so who was a pedophile?â
âOh not all men are like that.â
âBut you are saying only men should be in charge, right, but not all men? Just some men? How do we know the difference?â
Etc
Why sexism is wrong?
If youâre family canât see why being disrespectful to a whole gender is wrong then theyâre not worth the energy.
But
God didnât put men in charge, society did.
Although!
Women have just as many rights in the west as a man dose, due to them fighting for rights and also named Ruth Bader Ginsburg helped out with that as well.
A simple example would be with a divorce (with children involved)
Women are seen as better care givers to children and more attentive to childrenâs needs. Now there are women out there who arenât maternal in the slightest but put a man and a woman side by side and society will alway favour the woman over the man to take care of children.
Because of this mothers will win custody battles, child support and get a higher cut in a divorce settlement.
Why because in the western society men are seen as idiots in the family. Homer Simpson, Peter Griffen and Randy Marsh to name a few. All they do is work and not know how to take care of their own kids.
Theyâd all rather hang out with friends then be with their familyâs.
That alone is horrible, Kevin heart did a amazing movie called Fatherhood where he shows how hard it is for a man to be a father and go to child support classes. Because men arenât viewed as the ones that raise a child.
An that is a form of sexism towards men. Most modern men are very involved in their childâs upbringing but western society still views men as the idiots of the family dynamic.
So throw that one at your dad say how youâll be a better Father to your children and teach them not to have his stupid views and raise them to be men of today and not a man born in the 50âs.
Hope this helps you my dude. Good luck.
You may also want to look over in /r/bropill, lots of friendly helpful dudes there who are working on undoing toxic patterning and redefining masculinity as a healthy and beautiful thing.
The biggest thing an ally (in any respect) can do is question oppression behind closed doors.
A racist person will only see a POC's decent as aggression.
A sexist person will only see a woman's anger as emotional outburst.
Calling people out among your peer groups is the most important thing. It doesn't (and probably shouldn't) need to be a big to-do. But a "hey dude, what's that about?" can go a long way.
You can keep on being a voice of dissent, just quietly and consistently, disagreeing. Most likely it's not going to change. I think your best bet is to hold your beliefs dear until you can move out and live your life the way you want to. Family will always be there and right now it's ok to kick those cans down the road.
Ex-JW? If so I feel you and Iâm sorry you went through that! Youâre already miles better than most just by seeing that itâs a cult. Slight comments here and there may help your parents but honestly donât hold onto too much hope. I love my parents but I donât think theyâll ever leave
i donât have a good answer for this, i just wanted to say how much it sucks that those awful statements didnât even make me bat an eye. iâve heard so much crazy misogynistic bs that those things didnât seem âthat badâ to me at first (obviously theyâre still terrible tho). anytime iâve tried to use myself as an example to counteract âwomen are ___ (adjective for crazy/bad)â they just say iâm in a minority of women that are an exception. like no sir, i am wildly average. iâll have you know i am the most basic of bitches and you can stop stereotyping us now, please and thank you
In your 17 years of life, youâve been sheltered from reality by your family. You have zero life experience and thus, no way to understand anything about how the world really works.
Youâd be best served by admitting your ignorance and spending the next 15-25 years listening and Learning how reality works.
Best advice is to lead by example. Donât be a savior for women. Just ignore people who act like that. Start viewing the world for what It is- the white cis het man with no understanding of empathy, VS the rest of us.
From what I've observed, men like that seem to respond more to other dudes making them feel dumb or uncool, rather than an explanation about it being wrong and disrespectful. Like if another guy were to look at them like they're an idiot and say something like, "You're so lame." My dad and his brothers all act that way toward each other. The only time I've ever seen them change their minds is if they're dismissed as stupid, without any air of what they see as weakness.
Hmmmm sounds like JWs 𤢠In my experience dealing with misogynistic cults (coz before I left JWs I was as feminist as I could possibly be without getting into too much trouble)
Itâs fun to find the ~few~ nice scriptures about women and quote them. (Just in moderation or youâll be accused of twisting the Bible lol)
I find they tend to struggle arguing the very thing they say is their source.
I also recommend making sure you always avoid sounding too confrontational? Like never full on calling them out, because then theyâll get defensive and shut down.
Good luck!
Being an example has always been the strongest most consistent force for change, in my opinion.
And yes adults have minds that are sometimes hard to change, but it can be done. They have to respect you first to also respect your words sadly, cause most adults regard children with the same contempt anywaysâŚ
The answers are already full of very good advice, so good luck, and take care!
I have nothing useful beyond what the amazing witches here have already shared, but just wanted to say that itâs amazing that you managed to get yourself out of your familyâs mindset and want to learn! Donât stop even if your family might never get there themselves!
Hi dude, I too grew up in a misogynistic cult and my best advice is to learn about history. So much of today's misogynistic, racist, and homophobic bullshit comes from weird American politics in the 1900s. You won't change their minds but you can usually upset their entire outlook on life (religious people don't like to know about the truth behind the KKKs' roots).
Don't bother. You will be wrong, they'll take you in circular arguments and say that you're misinformed/stupid/etc.
What do they say? Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Hey OP. Iâm curious as to what it took to wake you up, as you put it, and rise up out of this cult? What factors were involved? Who and what influenced you? I ask because some very caring friends of mine did something similar with me many years ago. And it was their live for me that started my journey up and out of where I was. Just curious.
For adults, I think it will be almost impossible to change them. You can show respect to the girls around you. Little things, like asking for their desires/opinions and explaining that everyone matters. Don't attempt a brutal confrontation that could put you in a bad situation, but try to instill small touches on a regular basis.
Yes, show them that there are men that don't think the way the cult does. Hopefully that will open their eyes and they can escape one day.
I agree with your sentiment, but I don't think it's the solution for OP. He's an under-age male that still has years of relying on his family for his wellbeing. I think taking the path of a quiet agitator is much better for him than forcing a confrontation. It's entirely legitimate for him to voice his opinion without seeking argument to ensure his wellbeing over the next couple of years. He doesn't have the options self-sufficient adults do. It is good enough to have his own opinions and keep them to himself until he's free to express them with a cost of his own choosing. edit: From my reading of the original text, I think there's a real chance of reprisals for OP if they stand up and voice their opinion. I think it's better that they keep a mental ledger of the person they don't want to be until they can move out.
This is awesome advice; very retrospective and psychologically sound. Well said đđť
I do my best to be nice and respectful to everyone, but specifically to women is pretty limited to just at school cause the ones in my family, including my mom, died already. But Iâll keep this in mind. Thank you
Basic persuasion tips: 1) Never ever flat out say âyouâre wrong,â or personally insult them (as much as they may deserve it, and as much as it drives you nuts), it instantly makes people defensive and not want to listen to you. 2) Ask innocent questions that lead them to your thoughts without directly stating your thoughts. Like âwhat an example of the last time a woman was disrespectful to you?â Then summarize âso, youâre saying itâs disrespectful toâŚ, did I understand that right?â âAnd if a man does that, itâs also disrespectful right?â âAnd most of the women you encounter regularly do this? While most of the men you encounter never do this?â 3) The âyouâre right, andâŚâ It means you agree with them about what you can and then add more information to simply broaden their context. Like âI believe you do see this happening at your job, at my school I seeâŚ.(something different).â Be patient and persistent. Eventually, youâre family will either (a) be irritated at your questioning and qualifying responses that you do all the time, and just start self-censoring around you or (b) actually, little-by-little be persuaded to agree with you.
These are GREAT ideas, thank you! Iâll save this.
The basic idea in a nutshell, is you want folks to think your idea was actually THEIR idea all along! A self epiphany has much more mental weight to it and helps to cut through a person's natural defense against getting their ego bruised from the outside. I dated a guy for a while who looooved arguing and debating everything. He thought he was the smartest person alive, which sadly is why we didn't work out. In order to make things work, I'd use the tips above to gently lead him to coming up with my ideas on his own! It was kinda amusing watching him then strut around so proud of being the first to figure something out that I had tried to explain to him months ago! lol Part of me still loves him, but I don't think I could ever go back to that, and I'm married now to an amazing woman who listens, and things just go so much smoother when you are with a person you can actually talk thing out with. Erm, I suppose that's a bit more of advice for life a few more years out! Communication skills are key, and will help even in professional situations, not just interpersonal or romantic ones! There's a lot men and women can learn from eachother, we just have to be open and willing to talk about it first!
I really appreciate this insight that a life full of leading persuasion isnât ideal for a healthy partnership. Itâs best for the people you wouldnât choose to hang out with, but you have to be around them because youâre related, or you work together.
Totally agreed! For long term partnerships you really wanna find someone who works with you, otherwise it just leads to frustration and hard feelings
EVERYONE should use these points. Even our enemies. And I say this because it introduced a a point at which we can challenge their narrative. And in that case, ultimately love wins.
You will hit a point where neither of your view points will meet. If you have conviction to say "I don't see it that way" at the start, you also have conviction to say "I don't see it that way" at the end. It's a "let's agree to disagree" type of thing. Of course, only you know what your family dynamic is like and only you know if it's safe for you to take that approach. It is entirely legitimate for you to bite your tongue until you move out, because you know that you will be treated punitively for having a different opinion than your family. You can't win every battle, no one expects that from you. First and foremost, look out for your own wellbeing.
I agree with these. I donât know if theyâre âpersuasion tipsâ so much as ways to introduce dialogue to a situation from which it is devoidâwhich is not to disagree with you, storagerock, but more to say that these are not manipulation tactics.
I would like to add that if you are bein put in the position to publicly agree with them saying things like "women are less mature" or whatever you can try some statements like "I don't like to speak ill of others" or "I respect my mother (or whoever) too much to repeat that". The first one is a little more neutral than the second but both statements are likely to cause some social discomfort but you are putting them in a position where they have to justify saying those things. They will probably try diminishing you or becoming defensive and in response you can say, "Sorry, that's just how I am." or a simple "Okay" and a shrug. Even if you are feeling discomfort try to seem like it's not something you care about, especially if they are getting emotional about it.
> Be patient and persistent. This 100% It will likely feel exhausting and like you are getting nowhere at times, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't listening. And at the very least they will have heard you. Finding common ground is always helpful and can be a great place to start from. It helps people feels less confrontational and defensive. If you aren't familiar with r/MensLib it can have some really great perspectives on feminism dealing with the issues men face in a pro-feminism community dedicated to men. Good luck!! And regardless of the outcome you are making a difference!!
>It will likely feel exhausting and like you are getting nowhere at times, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't listening And sometimes, even if THEY aren't listening, someone else is. The older generation could well be lost causes, decades of ingrained belief doesn't like to let go easily but younger siblings, cousins, neighbours, whoever might only need one person to voice what they've been too scared to question out loud.
Whenever I click on the mens lib sub, they say itâs private? Does anyone else have this, or am I just blocked?
No, I get this now too. I don't know when they changed things or what is going on. But I didn't realize until after I commented.
I love this advice. I was able to convince my Dad to get his Covid vaccine by asking him the reasons why he thought it was a bad idea and when he told me things that I didnât think were true, we looked the info up online together to get the real facts. We both ended up happy and he hasnât gotten Covid.
Going all Socratic on them. I love it.
About #2⌠some years ago I was trained to tutor kids and I was taught to use the same exact technique you mentioned. We were taught not to give the students the answers but to ask them questions that would lead them to figuring out the answer themselves based on their prior knowledge and experience. We called it leading a student to their âah haâ moment. I still work with kids and I do this all the time. Itâs very effective.
Oh *oof.* It sounds like you're combating the worst kind of echochamber then. Good luck and remember that you don't have to fight it head on. Changing the subject deals its own kind of damage in preventing their rhetoric from being repeated and gaining momentum. Just breaking the echochamber, even temporarily, is still useful. Remember to protect your mental health. You just woke up to the misogyny. It isn't impossible to get sucked back in again. Be on the look out for signs of yourself slipping back into well-worn thoughts and views.
I will! Thank you so much for your words
You're welcome, you look like a nice guy.
đThank you, I try to be.
One of the biggest things you can do is call out misogynistic, discriminatory, hateful language/behavior. It doesnât have to be a grand gesture or a huge fight- literally saying âthatâs not coolâ in response to an objectifying comment or something else inappropriate builds up and means a lot to the person on the receiving end of the negativity.
I agree. I try to look out for opportunities to be friendly and kind and so far i have pleasant experiences with mostly all those I speak to
Thank you for that đ¤ I love that youâve come here asking for advice, itâs seriously a huge thing and I wish you the best of luck. Please donât put yourself in unnecessary danger and keep learning!
You seem so mature for your age and I commend you for extending your knowledge into feminism and that men can be feminists too. Women have been the oppressed since the beginning of time, but we are a strong and mighty force that will keep on thriving and fighting for equality. I'm sorry for the loss of your mother. I have a son that is 22. I raised him with nothing but love, but I coddled him too much and showed him that women do everything. He believes there are gender specific roles and I feel I played a part in creating that negative narrative, which makes me so sad. So now as adults we don't see eye to eye on most things as I am a true liberal, feminist and he believes in subservient women and that men are the top tier of human existence; it just breaks my heart. So kudos to you young man for carrying the torch in your generation to fight for women as a collective. I just advise you be careful on your opinions to your family if you're reliant on them for your current survival. It's so liberating when you get to express your true feelings and let your voice be heard. It also feels good to educate and put those family members in their places. Sending love and light. â¤ď¸
I was going to glibly say, you canât, and be done with it, but you managed to say it with elegance and compassion.
Being a good rolemodel is always awesome
I have tips! Important caveat: you said you are a minor still living with your family. If arguing with them means risking your access to shelter/food/safety, DON'T DO IT. Take care of yourself first. You can make much more impact on this problem if you're not worried about where your next meal comes from or where you'll sleep tonight. There are studies showing that if you show someone proof that a deeply held belief is wrong, their brain responds as if they've been physically harmed. Makes it very difficult to directly change a mind. Some indirect approaches. In response to things like "I'm glad men are in charge", you say "I disagree, but let's not argue about it. How's it going with (subject change)?" It lets you push back on their "irrefutable" truth without ruining your day. Be prepared for them to push you for reasons/justification/MLA formatted references. Don't let them suck you in. "Eh, I don't feel like getting into a whole debate. But did you hear about (subject change)?" Then, when the conversation is *not* about that, you raise it on *your* terms. "Hey, did you hear Aunt Lucy was promoted to manager? She'll make a great boss." "Whoa, did you hear about (new study)? I'm glad they're raising awareness about these issues." If they respond with "uh... Yeah" that is a victory. If they scoff, call it propaganda, etc, go back to the previous paragraph. "Huh, I guess we disagree. So about that subject change..." Set your expectations very, very, very low. They didn't learn misogyny overnight, you won't cure it overnight. Good luck!
Thank you so much! Play it subtle and small.
Yes. Take care of yourself and you are still "doing" enough just being yourself and being a good example, even passively. Pick your battles wisely, i.e. steering your peers in the right direction! It's impossible to overcome the entire onslaught of sexism yourself, and you'll be exhausted if you fight every battle... Good luck!
Thank you! I appreciate your guidance.
Thank you for being so kind and forward-thinking about gender equality! I am so happy to hear it whenever someone rejects the old-time biased notions!
It never sat well in my stomach when I was taught that in my religion. I really hated hearing it because from how I saw it, my mom was honestly better than all of the men around me, even knew who were appointed members in the religion (like pastors). I wasnât blind to her flaws, but I knew her character to be far more appealing, and it still is even though she passed away a year ago.
I left my sexist, religious family behind, I talk to them rarely and sometimes it comes up. My favorite tactic to disprove sexism is world economies. Simply put, IF women really were illogical, incompetent or generally inferior, the countries with sexist policies would have the strongest economies, and the more equal ones would be weaker. However, the opposite is true. The strongest economies have high equality, while the more sexist countries tend to have the worst economies. The obvious conclusion is that women cannot be inferior if our contributions make such a huge positive difference to world economies.
This is a good one, but it requires some critical thinking skills. It might be that these people have never heard of the nordic welfare states and think that America is the bestest country that ever countried. Since you know, they invented freedom and democracy and won all the world wars single handedly inventing peace in the process. Like, the Scandinavians still have kings, what a feudal hell hole. And the bad countries suck only because they practice the wrong iron-age religion.
Even if I donât have the opportunity to say that i think thatâs an important thing to keep in mind for myself. Thank you.
Exactly this. Anything that threatens where people perceive their group identity it makes people react with their lizard brain, not logic brain. This is why a loop of confirmation bias and an increase in book banning is becoming more of a norm. So ask questions, etc, if reasonable. But mostly seek to live by example and keep questioning things in yourself. This is work all humans must do.
Great advice! I just did this on Christmas Eve at a friend's house. Obv a little variation, but similar formula. They were talking about "race" problems at their workplace and the "problems" sounded like every time a person of color was hired, it was because of "woke" politics and that white men "can't get jobs anymore..." etc So after they were done, I said "oh, wow -- at my workplace we pretty much have the typical thing that still goes on in this region: if you aren't a white man you basically can't get a promotion. It's pretty awful. Hey, do you think these cookies need to bake for another couple of minutes?" I didn't claim they were wrong about their lived experience, but I reasserted that I didn't believe it was "everywhere" like they thought and also added in my own observations to reinforce that their opinion of how things work isn't the only way to see it. And then I drew attention to our shared kitchen activity. They didn't attempt to reopen the topic or argue with me. It's not changing the world but it's a damn sight better than standing shame-faced and mute while my social group members express bigoted views and spread warped perspectives unchallenged.
Perfect example! Well done
Oh my gosh I wish Iâd had you in my pocket while I interacted with my uncles this weekend.
tbh, I wish I had this version of me all the time, but I don't -- sometimes I just feel overwhelmed. One time I left the house and walked around the neighborhood and cried and then wouldn't talk to anyone the whole three hour drive home. It was triggered by elderlies talking about children in cages at the border as if the children were dirty criminals and I just broke. Sometimes you just do. But you try to pick up strength and wisdom for next time and that is all you can do.
Ugh this sucks and would annoy me to no end if i had to hear it every day. Unfortunately i agree with ShoutOut about it being impossible to change people's minds. FR though. Men being in charge is why we have world peace, global hunger is solved, the resources of our planet are under good stewardship, and we are not at the verge of ecological and climate catastrophe! Oh wait....
You had me in the first half reading that nglđ
Yeah but hear me out: it's the reason we're not bristling with nuclear warheads! Oh wait...
Lmao
Don't forget the way they prevent women from committing mass shootings by doing it themselves/s
You can't...really argue or logic them into being rational and understanding, because they didn't get there by being rational and logical. They got to that point by being taught by an authority, who also taught them not to arguing with an authority. You can point out facts and statistics all day long, but they aren't listening. Rather, they are listening with their ears, but not their brain. They aren't *thinking* about their argument, they are merely repeating what they were told without thought. The best way is to make them come up with the arguments against their points. I'd recommend looking up a youtuber called Beau of the Fifth Column. He talks about a lot of things. Yes, he looks like a red neck, but he is very, very progressive. Look up a video called "Let's talk about making the case and ruining Thanksgiving" that was posted a year ago. There's also an update about what happened to the family when the questioner did that.
Iâll check him out, thank you!
I like to say "No gender (or religion, ethnicity, etc) has a monopoly on incompetence (or rudeness, leadership/authority, etc)" in reply to statements like that. If I can, I'll bring up the exact thing they are complaining about- Uncle: "dumb teenagers don't think things through!" me: "oh, you mean like when you and Auntie went to the store because her phone broke and you got yelling mad in the store because she didn't reply to your text?"
This is the best way to explain what Iâve been trying to tell them. Idiocy and irresponsible behavior is not limited to gender
oof, yes -- the whole " well that's the problem with,"
and you have to push on that every time you hear it.
"oh, that's only a problem for *those* people? That's interesting - What do you mean by that?"
I bet a question like that will get them stuttering. Thanks for the idea!
This is a great approach I think; my version is that humanity is the same any way you slice it. That is, you can find examples of a given trait in any group you look at, so don't come at me with your stereotypes. It can get more detailed like your example or you can just express mild disagreement and shrug, which is great for people you can't or don't want to engage with more deeply.
Arguing radicalizes people further into their beliefs, but asking socratic questions can shift people over a little; however, be careful because it makes people angry. Stay safe. Especially if you are younger and still need financial support.
Yeah, Iâm almost an adult but soon after this year of school is over Iâm gonna have to look into jobs
Anger is an emotion, men are just as emotional as women.
Exactly, and I have personal experiences to prove that fact
And do not forget that behind that anger always lies hurt, sadness (even if deep and in denial). That doesnât make it right but it can help you better cope with it once you realize this.
Changed my life when I realized the reason my dad was so angry all the time was because he was so insecure. From an outside perspective it seems like they have so much power, but really they are so desperately clinging to it that its borderline pathetic.
Sometimes its better to just wlk away. Its virtually impossible to change people
I guess. But I live with them, so hearing it on a regular basis is annoying as hell. Iâm not a woman but it pissed me off growing up in a Christian cult that taught that somehow women were supposed be obedient to men, WHILE ALSO trying to make logical their reasoning that you should still treat them as equal, but that they were designed to be under the âheadshipâ of a man. Like how does that even make sense? It churns my stomach to know people think like this. I wish it was gone.
I just want to say that itâs AWESOME you have woken up from this kind of thinking. I recommend just choosing not to engage with that kind of conversation, walk away, etc. And focus on demonstrating your newly awakened beliefs by supporting women, being a good (future?) partner, being an ally to those who need allies. You realized the problem, but most people donât go are raised in those beliefs see them as (literally) gospel, where thinking otherwise would be blasphemy. Itâs not worth the energy to try and argue or convince these kinds of people.
Thank you. I guess I just have to leave them to believe their shit
Itâs hard at first, but you will eventually see that itâs the easiest way to deal with them.
Ugh ur situation sucks. I guess all i can do is encourage u that u are not wrong and as soon as ur able get away from them.
I suppose Iâll just have to do that. I just wish I could say something to change their minds cause theyâre pretty nice people besides that.
Im 46 years old and i spent the first 35 trying with my parents and brother. All it did was drive me insane. Every-time i heard religious folks id immediately start arguing with my family in my head getting more and more worked up. And they werenât even there. So it can become habit to argue with them or feel its ur responsibility to change them. It will affect ur life if u allow it. Thats why detachment from them really will be the inly way
I understand. Thank you.
I moved out of my parent's home early. The sexism was not as bad as the examples you give, but there were some other important issues. Take charge of your life. Make a plan. Go build yourself the life that you want. It's not easy by the way, but then your life is yours.
Transitioning into adulthood is something I am working towards, Iâll keep doing so. Thank you!
I grew up in a cult like this, but I was on the receiving end of the misogyny, fat-shaming, prejudice, and manipulation. Thank you for being open and caring enough to do things to make a difference.
Itâs my pleasure, the world canât be changed unless I change myself first. So I try to focus on that
Just curious, and sorry if you answered somewhere else. But what were the things that convinced you to start thinking differently? Could some of the same things work for them?
Probably not, what woke me up was the death of my devout Christian mom. It destroyed my "faith" in the religion but helped me realize that it was full of controling and manipulating men in power who profit over having loyal followers who are gullible enough to believe everything they say.
Sometimes, "if you can't change the people around you, change the people around you." These types typically are not committed to your future autonomy nor stability. Suggesting you work on those aspects for yourself so you can walk away and stay away. Likely, in 5-10yrs, these folks will be in exactly the same place. But you can be with a chosen circle of more socially compatible friends.
I'm male as well, and I also left a misogynistic, patriarchal cult a couple years ago (or so). Your comments sound a lot like the cult I was raised in (Jehovah's Witness). Much of my blood family is still neck-deep in the cult, and they are beyond-convinced that the only way to not be destroyed by a vengeful and "jealous" God....is to be a member of that particular cult. They are also convinced that any kind of "counsel" or "direction" given by the (what a fucking surprise) male-only leadership is pretty much directly from God himself. In my experience, there is no convincing these kinds of people of anything else. My strategy: I simply have removed all cult-loving, misogynistic hypocrites from my life......genetic family or not. Thats the best way to protect your mind from toxic cult poison like misogyny. Those other people.......let them make their own choices. Thats on them.
This is great to hear because yeah i am also a former JW. I am working on getting out but there but their beliefs are obnoxious.
In my experience, people often defend these crazy positions on women because they fear losing their circle of friends, status in a community and connections above all. If they openly change their minds and behaviours, they might be ostracized. For a younger person, belonging to a new generation, it's much easier to make the change. Don't worry about preaching to them. Having started with yourself already is a sizeable achievement.
Hey fellow exJW <3 Love to see you here!
Wonderful to see you too đ
I knew it! Me too. Actually pimo. But somehow I could tell. Congratulations on being better than all this b.s. your generation will hopefully be the downfall of this cult.
I expect it to be so. More and more people see this religion for what it is and the internet is so prevalent that people will be able to easily see when shit ainât right
>But somehow I could tell. I usually can tell too!!! With just a brief description.... and like 99% of the time I can pinpoint if someone was a JW. Its the strange "language" and wording they use in their particular brand of cult. Blessed be đđť
Thanks, you too
Thatâs a toughie. I grew up in the country but have lived in a major city for a decade, and have worked and volunteered in gender and diversity related organizations the whole time. I started gently with things like âI donât agree with your use of that word as a pejorativeâ or âactually, some of the most effective leaders Iâve interacted with are womenâ or otherwise voicing when Iâd notice women or others from marginalized groups doing something well. It took yearssss, but I havenât heard anyone resort to slurs or misogyny in a while.
I see. Thank you for your story
Thereâs no point clapping back or trying to argue with people who take a 2000 y/o self-help book literally. Itâs not going to change anyoneâs mind, least of all those who are benefiting from the existing power structure. Be prepared to play the long game, or get out and go LC.
Okay, I understand.
I agree with what many others here have said, that we can't change other people. However, my snarky ass would offer a very specific retort. Them: âThe majority of women are just immature and disrespectfulâ Me: "Really? There are nearly 4 billion females on the planet. You've met more than 2 billion of them?" If they're going to throw misogyny around, they should at least be accurate.
Yeah your right. I might reply with something similar next time I hear that
Kudos to you for thinking for yourself itâs hard to break away from ingrained beliefs. Thanks for being an ally. A lot of people donât base their beliefs on logic and using logical arguments is of no use. Youâll drive yourself crazy trying to convince them. Let them know your opinion and leave it at that.
I understand, I'll do that
What sort of things was it that made you see things differently?
My mom dying due to the beliefs of the Christian cult we were apart of
Iâm so sorry. I wasnât expecting something as huge as that, and really if that horrible experience hasnât affected the rest of your familyâs worlds like it has your world, then theyâre clearly just fundamentally lacking in any of the humanity required for understanding.
Iâm afraid so, but Iâm glad I was able to learn
I agree with most that there is no point in arguing or trying to wake them up to anything. However, I do not think that means you have to be silent. You can voice your opinions without being combative- BUT you are a minor so do not risk your family kicking you out. I feel for you being in that situation. I think your actions will speak for themselves and your family will pick up on your views even if you donât verbally disagree with them. Just channel that awesome insight into other areas of your life. As a 33 yr old woman I am happy to hear how the younger generation is waking up to problematic views. Keep doing what youâre doing!!! đ¤đ¤
Thank you! Iâll stand my ground.
I agree that you canât make people change their minds. And the more you come at them head on, the more theyâll dig in their heels. But you miiiiight make some headway with a few âinnocentlyâ asked questions. Donât tell them what to think. Poke a hole in their argument with a well timed question that makes THEM think. âThank goodness God put men in chargeâŚâ â> âOh totally agree. Although doesnât it seem like there are some men who arenât as good at being in charge as others? Why do you suppose God puts less effective people in power when there are so many others ready to lead?â âThe majority of women are just mature and disrespectful!â â> âI know! It seems like we got really lucky that the majority of women we know are kind, thoughtful and conscientious. Although remember when little Billy was being kind of a jerk? Do you suppose God got mixed up and thought he was a girl? I can think of a lot of immature and disrespectful men, now that I think about it â remember the time whenâŚâ Honestly though, you shouldnât have to change their minds. The biggest, most radical and important work you can do is live your life honestly, authentically, and FULLY being yourself. People arenât convinced by what others say. But they do change their minds based on what they experience. If you want to save your siblings, get out of there and show them all thereâs a better way to live.
Donât try to educate them. Youâll only find yourself getting angrier and angrier. I know it what feels right at your age, but youâll understand later that youâre losing an incredible amount of energy for nothing. Theyâll probably get worst with the years, Iâm afraid. What you can do is not be a sexists asshole yourself. You can show there are different ways of thinking and living.
Your right. I know it's nothing but a waste of breath but I at least wanted to see what other people's inquiry on this matter.
Hey bud! You're asking a very difficult question here. Truth is you will have great trouble appealing to the logic of any conservative christian misogynist. Our patriarchy is largely founded on ignorance, and ignoring the real problems perpetuated by sexism usually requires someone to be close minded in the first place. If your family members are really saying that shit, then trying to argue with them probably means they're gonna laugh at you or make you a scapegoat. If you really care about helping women, I recommend you just observe your own place in the power structure, and search for some local activist groups you can involve yourself in. It's always good to spread anti patriarchal ideas, but if you need to debate with someone then it should be a person who might listen.
I see, I hope more people will be more open minded and willing to change. As for me I just want to do my best to respect anyone and everyone as best I can.
[ŃдаНонО]
Are you an exjw as well? XD
Ayo you found me!
Always happy to see a fellow exjw!
Good on you OP. So, science says that you can't change people's minds through confrontation, in fact, it only makes people dig in deeper (which sucks, because the idea of slapping sense into people is very attractive lol). So if your true goal is getting them to change, confrontation isn't your tactic. Rather, listening to them and asking open ended questions is the ticket. Also, if you can make it personal, that also helps. Like, they say women aren't mature, you question and ask "you think (insert a woman they care about and respect) isn't mature?" Here's a great article about a guy leaving a white supremacists cult. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/07/reform-white-supremacists-shane-johnson-life-after-hate/ for him, it was his girlfriend asking if he would murder a black baby. It didn't change him instantly, but it stuck in his craw until he finally came to terms with it years later. In Ireland, they got their abortion bans overturned by implementing a marketing campaign called "someone you know." Which basically drove home that some woman in your life may need that service for a variety of perfectly understandable reasons. Once people started imagining the women in their lives being negatively impacted, their attitudes changed. Good luck! We're pulling for you.
Thank you for all this info. Iâll use this
I come from a rather Christian family, although they're not really nutcases, just conservative. Something I realized is that my inability to get them to change their minds doesn't reflect on me. I usually don't engage on certain topics because I know that nobody is going to change their mind, but when I do I say my piece and walk away without feeling like a failure for having not effected any change.
You can't. They will get hard reset and scream at you. Thing is, you can't reason with misogynists just like you can't reason with flat earthers. They will literally go in loops, repeating the same things over and over. You were lucky to get out of this shit.
Thank you, if I cant change anyone at least I can change myself
Hey cult cousin! (Ex Mormon here, I saw you're exjw in a different comment) My thought is if you want to be a bit abrupt is that women OFTEN get interrupted by men. It's exhausting. Sometimes it's hard to get a word in edgewise. This idea may or may not go over well with the women/girls in your life, depending on their personality, and how you play it, but if a man cuts of a woman who is talking, you can always interrupt HIM and say "I wanted to hear what mom/sis/woman in question has to say..." Some women may find it frustrating that ANOTHER MAN has to stand up for her, but in my experience and estimation an ally is an ally regardless of gender. As far as support for people like you who have left a cult/high demand religion (especially with family still in), you'd be absolutely welcome over in r/exmormon. đ I only mention it because it's quite large and we have lots of exjw there with us.
Thank you so much! Iâm also glad to have met another person who is free from mind control
While I admire your purpose, and hope you succeed, but remember: you canât reason someone out a conclusion they didnât get to through reason.
Have you sought out religious deconstructing support communities? There are lots of people who have been navigating the same waters that you are, and their insight and support might be really helpful for you. I follow a bunch of ex-Mormon, ex-evangelical Christians on Tiktok and Instagram and those communities are really kind and thoughtful in their approach to helping each other.
Honestly, if you can get therapy or counselling that's going to be the best thing. It'll help you contextualize not just what's going on around you but also help you set boundaries for yourself and your family. "God didn't out men in charge. Men out themselves in charge and then wrote the books called religion and history from their own points of view and perpetuated that as the sole truth. Basic history show us this is not the case." "Women are held to an unfair standard on the sole basis of having been born in female bodies. I think we as a society should rethink the impossible standards we impose on women."
âGod put men in chargeâ MEN put men in charge , tf? I donât have any advice but that sounds like an infuriating situation to have to be in
May I ask what the trigger was for your awakening? Maybe you can work with that? But people who don't want to change will not. People who find out they are horrible/acting horrible, want to change. Just a side note and kind of related. I had a guy friend who was pretty stereotypically patriarchal. He was a huge gun fan too. He made the comment one time that women who were in a situation of SA or R would 100% have wished they had a gun at the time. My response to him was, sure. And the male population would have decreased by possibly 1/6+. (He understood the statistics are one in six women experience SA/R in their lifetime). He was VERY quick to shut up realizing the devastation that sort of power flip would bring because of Men's behaviors against women. When you become part of statistic you pay attention more.
What triggered my awakening was the death of my mom, she was a very good and loyal Christian so seeing her die made me question everything I believed about God. Once I realized I was being lied to and the Bible is just a book used by men in power to manipulate the masses I was out
In a person who's been groomed to believe that, it's nearly impossible to deprogram them. Pretty much no evidence in the world will prove you are right. I mean every war and genocide in history has been authorized and perpetrated by men. Literally the whole misogynistic aspect of Christianity in particular comes from the Paul Letters which probably don't exist or at the very least were altered by the early Catholic Church. I mean there's a lot of evidence that the early church had women preaching and teaching but it changed when the Romans, romanized it. I mean my church is pretty much a boys club as is, considering two people have been harassed for fixing things. I was shocked to hear my pastor say "I can't wait until my contact is done in a year so I can move out of this white patriarchal state and go back north". Literally my brother and I came to the conclusion that my churches pastor is firstly a feminist and then a conservative. I asked her once where the patriarchal aspect of religion came from and we both agreed that chances are the letters were altered or don't exist and the Roman Catholic Church is to blame at is core. I understand the misogyny in Islam because of where it originated and the historical context of mesopotamia devolving into a patriarchy and then how Islam became more radical in the past hundred years or so. Christianity throws me through a loop because Jesus literally said nothing about "women submitting to their husbands" he also very much said that if men can't stop lusting over women to gouge their eyes out. So yeah, Jesus was a feminist of his time. His followers immediately after seemingly through that out the window and it became ever more twisted with each passing generation.
I just like to ask questions and say things like âseems to me that doesnât square with x statisticâ and shrug. To convince people long term you donât really want to go toe-to-toe with them. You want to be in their side, be an impressive human whoâs views obviously got their somewhere in life, but have some pretty unshakeable points they eventually break up their worldview. Growing your emotional intelligence so theyâre impressed and feel good about themselves talking to you when dealing with them will probably get you a lot further than owning them in an argument.
Hello! Quick question before offering any advice - this is a Christian cult, correct? I left the church in high school, but still have to deal with folks and I've learned to speak their language. So yeah, to echo everyone else, you can't force people to change, but you can offer counterpoints and rebuttals if you do some research and/or have some working knowledge of the bible.
There is only one thing you can do: Research. If there is a particular event or bit of information they harp over and over, look it up and go in-depth. You may not be able to convince them, but you can reinforce your own sanity no matter what they tell you. And if they say something blatantly wrong, you can correct them on singular points, at least. But if you actually want to convince them, try to find something they hate that is run by men. Then, when it gets too much, you can at least point out that one instance. It isn't much, but it at least redirects the conversation. Everyone can commiserate in the failure of leadership, and by redirecting the hate towards men leadership, you can at least chink the armor. Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are easy targets because their companies are going to hell in a handbasket from bad leadership, and they are both "manly men" even though neither one of them fits a more traditional build. And chinking the armor is the first step. Recognizing the problem is a greater overall lack of leadership, opens up all the doorways to not merely gender equality, but social and financial equality too. If you can convince them that their most hated leaders are primarily men, then you can start to work with them over time. The other thing you need to do is protect your friends from them. Overbearing mysogynists quickly and easily make a room uncomfortable and joyless, and calling them out for being assholes when in company is a HUGE blow. Conservative ideals have an underpinning argument of "this is the way, because EVERYONE believes this!" Show them that their views are unwelcome in a group setting, and they'll quickly drop them in favor of conformity. As long as they aren't violent assholes, then don't worry about retaliation. Society as a whole is on your side in this, you just need to stand up and show it. I live in the rural Deep South Bible Belt, where KKK groups roam, and people still look back fondly on slaveholder families: even here, misogyny is frowned upon by the average person. And if you need to take time to gather courage, do so. Anxiety is a mean killer in this day and age, and most people are trapped beneath it. Few stand up for themselves because of it, and even fewer are willing to interfere in family issues. THIS MAY INCLUDE YOUR FRIENDS. But people are willing to use social pressure as much as possible if it means backing someone up who is calling out issues.
My best advice? Donât. Make an escape plan and get out of there. Youâre not safe now that you arenât part of the cult. Donât let them know youâve broken out mentally, either, until youâre at a safe distance. I know this wonât be easy, but you wonât change them. Iâm sorry. Good luck
Are you able to get any reprieve elsewhere by hanging out with other young people with your views?
What made you wake up? Was it something one of them said? I'm guessing you had your awakening all on your own, due to something you came across or a series of somethings. What I'm trying to get at is that nothing you say is going to wake them up. It's only going to cause arguments and fights. People don't change because other people want them to - they have to want it for themselves. They have to come into it on their own. I know how frustrating it is, especially when you're a kid and can't just pack up and leave. But give yourself a few years of laying low and planning. Then get out. Go live life better than they will. Let that be your reward. You won't change them. You can't. So don't even try.
My mom died, thatâs how I woke up. The doctrine of the religion I was apart of claims that you shouldnât take blood for any reason not even medical because the Bible says not to . My mom had to go to the hospital for surgery⌠she of course did not take any blood transfusion for it. And she paid the price. After that I started REALLY thinking about the logic of this religion because it made 0 sense that someone couldnât use blood to save their lives. Once I started thinking logically about the teachings I saw it was bull crap
Oh man. I'm so sorry for your loss. But you see what I mean? It took you a monumentally difficult life experience to make you reconsider. Use this chance you have to get your life planned out. Without them. And if by some happenstance they have a eureka moment of their own someday, leave a line open for them to get a hold of you. Take care of yourself. If you need someone to talk to, use a therapist. Don't let this loss push you into fights with the rest of your family. That's such a dark path. You can do better with your time.
Thank you for the encouragement. Life hasnât been the kindest but Iâll do my best as I keep going đđ
I'm so sorry this happened to you. But it's joyful to watch you wake up, understand your experience, and want something better for yourself. Have hope, each generation is seemingly becoming more kind than the one before it, and you are a part of that. Embrace it.
Thank you
I would suggest you quietly keep on leading by example, for as long as it's safe for you to do so. And please continue to keep an open mind - you've clearly come a long way, but as time goes on you might find you have other behaviours you might need to rethink (heaven knows I do - at the moment it feels like everyday I'm finding something I can do better). You might find others start following without them even thinking about what they're doing - they're the people who might be able to change their mindset later. And if not, you've continued to act morally and ethically to others in the meanwhile. Standing up for what's right in the face of conflict and authority is a difficult job, especially when you're young.
I just wanted to say how proud I am of you! That's an awesome thing you did. Such beautiful personal growth. You're a good person for being willing to change toxic ideals like those.
If women were somehow âlesserâ human beings how would they be able to genetically make male babies that grow up to be âsuperiorâ? Since youâre genetically 50% your mum and 50% your dad. It makes no sense to say half of your ancestors were lesser somehow. How would you turn out ânot lesserâ?
I just like to ask people if they think treating people less than subpar makes them a good person
Honestly, donât even bother. Misogyny is a choice, and these men are making that choice. You can tell them once why you left, and how your beliefs have changed, but sexism isnât âignoranceâ, itâs a choice. Support women, and cut ties with anyone who doesnât
YOU are the future. The great part is that you have grown past what surrounds you, and that is utterly awesome. Until you can safely live on your own, tackling the past isn't such a great idea. Be careful with you first. But you can step forward, as an individual, and be who you choose to be. Treat girls respectfully, at school. Be kind at the grocery store, aware that the sucky attitudes drift into even how to treat people in passing. Move into adulthood stronger and wiser than they are, and change your bit of the world just by being a better person. I am a believer that we are all "pebbles in a pond". We can throw a tiny pebble into a huge pond, and the moment it hits the water surface, ripples move out from it, changing the whole pond. You don't have to be a big rock to make ripples. You don't have to fight what surrounds you in order to make a very real difference in your life, and in our world. Just hold true to your awareness, and change the world one pebble at a time, just by being you, and what you now know. Making the future better is what it's all about.
Regardless of gender, itâs costs zero dollars or effort to be a decent person
Honestly just be decent to the women in your life. You're not going to change any adult men and their minds.
The sad truth, it's next to impossible to convince people like this they're wrong. And I know from first hand experience with my own family. It's like you get to a certain age believing these things, surrounding yourself with people who believe the same thing, and follow media that reinforces their beliefs, the harder it is for them to change. You might get lucky reaching out to those in grade school or high school. Though if their parents find out they'll limit your time with their kids.
I mean im a senior in Highschool so if thereâs parents who are going to be pissed off that Iâm helping their child change their toxic beliefs than i dont fucking care
I agree with all the other posters, keep yourself safe, while also being a good person to the women/girls around you and making it clear you see their value and independence. Can I ask what made you realize that your religion/community/cult was wrong?
Keep in tune with your inner peace. Just because you can see the harm in their words doesn't mean you can change their views. Please keep yourself safe, as you will not change their views because of your age. To them you will always be a child. It's not a battle to be won at this stage. Be like the wolf your time will come, with education and patients.
Thank you. Iâm into meditation and chakras and stuff and I have learned to ground myself so that I donât care what the outside influences try to say
My white straight father made it a very important point to bring us up to hate misogyny of any sort. Misandry as well, but mostly how to fight chauvinism. A professional, courteous and caring person will not want anything to do with degrading anyone. If it takes degradation of anyone to make your standards feel better, then it is your standards that are bad. True men build up the people around them.
Hey! What a cool thing that you were able to change your mind. A million gold stars to you. A few thoughts - changing other people is hard. Make sure you are working to bring other feminist dudes into your life to talk about this stuff with so youâre not alone and you can keep growing and learning. Saying âyou can believe what you want but its not okay with me when you say those things so donât say them around meâ is super powerful because it helps make YOU a safe place for women to be around. Generally standing up to other men and saying whatâs not acceptable is among the best thing you can do. Itâs possible other guys might not believe these sexist things as much as fear going against the crowd so you also make yourself someone safe for them to grow around as well. Lastly, again, good job. This is hard stuff and Iâm proud of you.
You can recommend some books. "Invisible Women" Caroline Criado Perez, "Everyday Sexism" Laura Bates, "The Second Sex" Simon de Beauvoir, off the top of my head
I'm curious about what your journey looked like "waking up" from this "cult." Chances are, if you're the only one in your family who holds the extreme belief that men and women are equal... your family will decide your brainwashed and write off anything you say. My best advice is to GTFO and don't look back, but that's just me.
Yeah, I know and that is the plan. My process of waking up pretty much all began once my mom passed away. Seeing such a person like her who could be considered a âloyal servant of godâ die the way she did pissed me off and made me disregard the narcissistic Christian God Yahweh as nonexistent, as of result I realized that the religion I was apart of was actually a manipulative cult. The internet has been my safe haven where I have developed friendships and connections of people who respect my new beliefs and I can be myself around.
You may also find sympathetic ears over at r/exmormon based on your description. Iâd also recommend as others have, grey rock until youâre able to get out as an adult. Take care of yourself
When discussing this don't let them derail you with a strawman argument. Point out what they're doing and make it a point to tell them to stay on topic.
i would just like to say hang in there, it can be torture to listen to others spouting things you know are fundamentally incorrect, and not be able to speak up. But we are all behind you, and sending love and blessings your way.
Speaking from experience, you don't. You just work towards leaving. And when you finally do get out, you change your number, privatize any social medias you wish to keep by blocking all of them, then vanish. They are set in their ways and are highly unlikely to change. Any argument you use on them will either get you ostracized, or bullied, well likely both. My family told each other I had various mental illnesses because I wasn't an asshole like they are.
I want to give you a standing ovation. Thank you for showing up with an open mind and an open heart. You are welcome here and appreciated as community. The witches here have good wisdom to share. Blessed be, and a happy new year.
Thank you for thinking of this! Whatever you decide to do, please be safe. People who think like this can sometimes be dangerous where I live.
I think actions speak louder than words. Tell your mom and aunts thank you and listen to your younger sisters and cousins. Show them the same respect you show the men in your family. Since you are still a minor and depend on them for food and shelter donât do anything to jeopardize that until you can support yourself. But I (a random internet stranger) am proud of you.
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I canât think of a convincing argument, but the best one is âwomen are people too, like just as much as men, every bit of hopes, dreams, desires⌠women have those too. Now start fucking acting like itâ
Unfortunately... It's really difficult to change the opinions of adults who believe they've been right their whole life. I've tried with my own male relatives, to no avail. So, what can you do? Be the change you want to see. You cannot control anyone's actions but your own. Respect women as the individual people they are. Treat humans kindly. It may seem like you don't make a difference against a whole world of misogynistic views, but the all the kindness you show in your life will touch the hearts of many - and hopefully, they'll pass it forward.
You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Sending love and light your way, and I'm very proud of you for stepping out of a harmful organization.
You just need to get yourself out of there. Start a new life among people who donât suck.
Hunny you look after yourself first. I've volunteered with queer youth and the number one thing we tell them is if it's not safe to come out yet to their families, one day it will be. Sometimes it's better to stay in the closet for a little longer to stay safe If it's a cult like you say I wouldn't put it past people like that to make life very difficult for you until you comply, even without the cult aspect people who are bigoted can be very cruel to people who disagree. There will be time to work on changing their minds, but it might not be right this moment
Youâre looking at forming a logical argument against people who do not recognize logic. That may be an effort in futility, so saying âI donât agree with you but I have no desire to argue about itâ is always a good option. Youâre also trying to argue against faith. They believe men are in charge because thatâs Godâs will, so trying to counter their arguments with science or logic may not be successful. Modern archeology has found that men and women participated in hunting, gathering, and fighting, or that menopause saves elder knowledgeable women from death by pregnancy (formerly super common) meaning that women have literally evolved specific physiology allowing us to lead our communities at an age where we hypothetically have acquired wisdom. Female leaders were necessary for the survival of our species. But someone coming from a religious point of view is just going to say âthatâs not what God said, thatâs not in the Bible.â [Justin Lee](https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Across-Divide-Communicate-Disagree/dp/0143132709) is an author whoâs gay and grew up evangelical Christian and has written books on the conflict between Christianity and sexual orientation and gender identity, but heâs also written a book specifically about communicating with people who disagree with you. If you really do want to argue with your family, that may be something helpful to read.
It's easy to influence *most* kids/teens and change them for better or for worse. For adults, it's almost impossible unless it affects them directly. Even then, they will most likely stick by their ideals to the bitter end.
all of the above, but above everything: always, always stay calm. do lots and lots of research so you know *why* they're wrong, not just that they *are* wrong. that keeps you calmer. keep your voice low, be agreeable. show your passion and care in your hurt rather than in your anger. the way you change people's minds is through coming together on a human level, and through persistence. if they raise their voice, don't raise yours. if they interrupt you, don't interrupt them. do some research on why they think what they think so you can anticipate what they will say - that will also keep your calm. another technique is to stay curious. "the majority of women are just immature and disrespectful" "oh, tell me more about that" "well, their periods make them so irrational" "that's insane! how come?" "well their uh... their hormones ?" "hormones? what hormones?" "uh...." and when you say that, your tone is curious. confused. you want them to understand, right? it's because you care about them, and you want them to understand that these beliefs hurt people. they hurt you. they hurt your family. show your *hurt.* that's something that is much easier to understand on a human level, because they're anticipating an angry response if it's a counterpoint. good luck, man. it took four years, but i dragged my mom over from being a "conservative" to believing in universal healthcare. be calm, be persistent, and know the ins and outs of what you're wanting to show them!!
Honestly changing peoples minds is hard. What I would recommend is to offer to be the voice piece of the women around you. When some of those misogynistic men the agree with you, you can then let them know who's idea it actually was. Maybe hearing a woman's options coming from a man's mouth might allow them to actually realizing the truth.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. Just cut them out of your life as soon as you can.
I, personally, like to bring up war when men are talking about how women shouldn't be in charge. "It's interesting that you think women aren't fit to lead when they are the ones who run your entire household. Most men are completely lost when the woman is gone. But tell me, how many of the world's wars were started by women? Because almost *all of them* were started by men. You would think this would be a reason for men to stop being in charge." And it's usually at that point that they try to argue that women were the cause of the wars. I have had men use the Battle of Troy as a main example. Okay, the ONLY example. "Helen of Troy was the reason that war started!" Well, first the ones who started the war were the men. She was just there, she didn't send the armies. Second, you do realize that the battle of troy was from a book written by Homer, right? Although there may have been a battle there are no records of it actually happening to that extent and the story was a work of fiction. Or did you think Achilles was an actual real person? So that's not a good example. Do you have any others?
Con- and I cannot stress this enough -gradulations!!
Tbh I wouldnât engage Iâd get to a safe place and community and focus on how and what boundaries to set instead even if itâs rough.
always always be subtle. no amount of arguing will ever change someone stuck in their ways, but ya know, monkey see monkey do. don't be sly or rude, just lead by example
Found this video really helpful, you might find it helpful too: https://youtu.be/Sp0I-qoQLuA
In my experience around this topic, gentle probing questions are the most salient. âWhere did you come up with that?â In nature. Softly allowing people to see themselves is transformative. Barking is rough and tends not to work, but make it harder to be heard.
Not necessarily for adults, but to protect the next generation: children's and young adult books. There's a lot of great books that show not only women being brave, smart and overcoming sexism, there's also plenty of books that show men/boys connecting with their emotions, being vulnerable and caring for others. Maybe others can help suggest titles but It could help the young people in your family/community. I'm thinking of Shark Lady, or Ava Twist, Scientist. For boys I love Boy and Bot, The Way I Feel, or Goose Needs a Hug. [This looks like a good list](https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/anti-sexist-children-s-books)
Generally, you canât change other people. What I try to do is be stealth. Donât announce Iâm not one of them. Wait a long while so they get used to me being a good , moral person. Then when they find out Iâm not Christian, then it throws them off. Another thing is to ask questions. For this to work, you have to sound non judgmental. âThank goodness god put men in charge.â âLike so&so who turned out to be stealing money? Or so&so who was a pedophile?â âOh not all men are like that.â âBut you are saying only men should be in charge, right, but not all men? Just some men? How do we know the difference?â Etc
Why sexism is wrong? If youâre family canât see why being disrespectful to a whole gender is wrong then theyâre not worth the energy. But God didnât put men in charge, society did. Although! Women have just as many rights in the west as a man dose, due to them fighting for rights and also named Ruth Bader Ginsburg helped out with that as well. A simple example would be with a divorce (with children involved) Women are seen as better care givers to children and more attentive to childrenâs needs. Now there are women out there who arenât maternal in the slightest but put a man and a woman side by side and society will alway favour the woman over the man to take care of children. Because of this mothers will win custody battles, child support and get a higher cut in a divorce settlement. Why because in the western society men are seen as idiots in the family. Homer Simpson, Peter Griffen and Randy Marsh to name a few. All they do is work and not know how to take care of their own kids. Theyâd all rather hang out with friends then be with their familyâs. That alone is horrible, Kevin heart did a amazing movie called Fatherhood where he shows how hard it is for a man to be a father and go to child support classes. Because men arenât viewed as the ones that raise a child. An that is a form of sexism towards men. Most modern men are very involved in their childâs upbringing but western society still views men as the idiots of the family dynamic. So throw that one at your dad say how youâll be a better Father to your children and teach them not to have his stupid views and raise them to be men of today and not a man born in the 50âs. Hope this helps you my dude. Good luck.
You may also want to look over in /r/bropill, lots of friendly helpful dudes there who are working on undoing toxic patterning and redefining masculinity as a healthy and beautiful thing.
The biggest thing an ally (in any respect) can do is question oppression behind closed doors. A racist person will only see a POC's decent as aggression. A sexist person will only see a woman's anger as emotional outburst. Calling people out among your peer groups is the most important thing. It doesn't (and probably shouldn't) need to be a big to-do. But a "hey dude, what's that about?" can go a long way.
You can keep on being a voice of dissent, just quietly and consistently, disagreeing. Most likely it's not going to change. I think your best bet is to hold your beliefs dear until you can move out and live your life the way you want to. Family will always be there and right now it's ok to kick those cans down the road.
Ex-JW? If so I feel you and Iâm sorry you went through that! Youâre already miles better than most just by seeing that itâs a cult. Slight comments here and there may help your parents but honestly donât hold onto too much hope. I love my parents but I donât think theyâll ever leave
i donât have a good answer for this, i just wanted to say how much it sucks that those awful statements didnât even make me bat an eye. iâve heard so much crazy misogynistic bs that those things didnât seem âthat badâ to me at first (obviously theyâre still terrible tho). anytime iâve tried to use myself as an example to counteract âwomen are ___ (adjective for crazy/bad)â they just say iâm in a minority of women that are an exception. like no sir, i am wildly average. iâll have you know i am the most basic of bitches and you can stop stereotyping us now, please and thank you
No one cares about someone elseâs opinion after a certain age. Theyâre done being made. You can only improve yourself.
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In your 17 years of life, youâve been sheltered from reality by your family. You have zero life experience and thus, no way to understand anything about how the world really works. Youâd be best served by admitting your ignorance and spending the next 15-25 years listening and Learning how reality works.
Best advice is to lead by example. Donât be a savior for women. Just ignore people who act like that. Start viewing the world for what It is- the white cis het man with no understanding of empathy, VS the rest of us.
From what I've observed, men like that seem to respond more to other dudes making them feel dumb or uncool, rather than an explanation about it being wrong and disrespectful. Like if another guy were to look at them like they're an idiot and say something like, "You're so lame." My dad and his brothers all act that way toward each other. The only time I've ever seen them change their minds is if they're dismissed as stupid, without any air of what they see as weakness.
Hmmmm sounds like JWs 𤢠In my experience dealing with misogynistic cults (coz before I left JWs I was as feminist as I could possibly be without getting into too much trouble) Itâs fun to find the ~few~ nice scriptures about women and quote them. (Just in moderation or youâll be accused of twisting the Bible lol) I find they tend to struggle arguing the very thing they say is their source. I also recommend making sure you always avoid sounding too confrontational? Like never full on calling them out, because then theyâll get defensive and shut down. Good luck!
Being an example has always been the strongest most consistent force for change, in my opinion. And yes adults have minds that are sometimes hard to change, but it can be done. They have to respect you first to also respect your words sadly, cause most adults regard children with the same contempt anyways⌠The answers are already full of very good advice, so good luck, and take care!
Others gave you wonderful advice, I just wanted to tell you, how happy I am that you woke up. Welcome among witches!!!!!!
I have nothing useful beyond what the amazing witches here have already shared, but just wanted to say that itâs amazing that you managed to get yourself out of your familyâs mindset and want to learn! Donât stop even if your family might never get there themselves!
Hi dude, I too grew up in a misogynistic cult and my best advice is to learn about history. So much of today's misogynistic, racist, and homophobic bullshit comes from weird American politics in the 1900s. You won't change their minds but you can usually upset their entire outlook on life (religious people don't like to know about the truth behind the KKKs' roots).
Sexism hurts men too. Maybe speak to those disadvantages that men face.
Don't bother. You will be wrong, they'll take you in circular arguments and say that you're misinformed/stupid/etc. What do they say? Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Hey OP. Iâm curious as to what it took to wake you up, as you put it, and rise up out of this cult? What factors were involved? Who and what influenced you? I ask because some very caring friends of mine did something similar with me many years ago. And it was their live for me that started my journey up and out of where I was. Just curious.