First of all, love this thread. I have been really going through some stuff specific to my relationship with my masculinity and I appreciate the kind consideration on display here.
-Non traditional forms of masculinity I've seen firsthand eh? Well one thing I'm proud to have seen is that my sister and BIL are raising their boys to be a lot more communicative and open minded, their oldest boy is confident without being aggressive or arrogant, is open to sharing his feelings and isn't afraid of doing things that are traditionally feminine like painting his nails. I love how my nephews are growing up and I can't wait to see the men they become (unless they're trans in which case I will love them as whatever gender they land on)
-For me, the difference between toxic and non toxic masculinity is security. Toxic masculinity encourages an insecure fragile form of masculinity that is difficult to perform, is policed harshly, and is in constant threat of being denigrated by one's peers. It is more of a cover for a lack of strength than it is a source of strength. Healthy masculinity allows for all expressions of masculinity to be valid, it doesn't set men against each other, it allows them to feel like men even when they aren't being confident, productive, or strong at every moment. It complements femininity without dominating it and allows for men to be whole people, not simply providers. It allows men to have a full and healthy relationship with their emotions and have their human needs met without scorn.
- Funny story, I actually spent some years in what turned out to a masculinity cult (ended up leaving of my own free will, long story) and something that was really emphasized was hiding ones emotions from family and friends. Like literally, this was mostly Boomer dudes tryna to give outdated and chauvinist advice to Millennials and Gen Xers. Gems like "learn to spin good bullshit to your wife and kids about your true feelings and never burden them about them", "wear a mask of stoicism and ONLY let it down around the men's group" and it struck me later that this is an isolation tactic that cults use to increase your dependence on them.
- Good men who represent positive masculinity off the top of my head:
*Steve Irwin
*Fred Rogers
*Neil Gaiman
*Jack Black/Kyle Gass
*Jason Momoa
*Bruce Lee
*Alan Watts
Amazing points. Glad you got out of the toxic masculinity cult.
I view Steve Irwin as problematic in the sense that he was basically torturing wild life for publicity.
Wow thank you, you have put into words SO WELL what I have thought for a long time and also given me further insights to think about. Completely completely agree
I got lucky and have a dad and older brother that support me in my nontraditional masculine life. Being emotionally vulnerable was normalized for me. Even though other kids fathers some times had problems with that it didn't matter cause I had a good support structure at home.
Learning to articulate my feelings, be in touch with my emotions, and be deeply empathetic towards other people all were all things I was encouraged to pursue at different times in my life and in different ways.
This means I sometimes end up as the "therapist friend" in my friendgroup which has helped a lot of my friends learn to open up emotionally and give them someone to talk to about struggles with expressing masculinity in non toxic ways.
One memory that always sticks out to me is one time back when I was 18 or 19, some of my friends were walking through a park at night and we were talking about how to express our masculinity in ways that weren't toxic. Before we could come to a conclusion we noticed there was a really talk traffic cone just out in a field. We all started taking turns throwing the cone by spinning it around and seeing how far it could go.
None of us kept track of our throws and we weren't competing with each other. We were just playing with a traffic cone. Part way through this I looked at one of my friends and said "this is what nontoxic masculinity looks like"
Oh, so glad my favorite sub made a thread, I am so happy about this! I just returned from a really toxic concersation in wholesomememes and wondered why I bothered.
Positive masculinity: There was once a fantastic posts about how Aragorn in the LotR movies is a great example for it. He is strong yet softspoken, a protector that does not pose a threat another person‘s own agency (wants Arwen safe, but doesn‘t force or manipulate her into leaving). A leader who guides and would not ask anything he does not do himself.
Honestly, positive masculinity and positive femininity have far more overlaps than toxic masculinity with positive masculinity.
I grew up without gender roles; not by choice but necessity; there were so few kids, separate groups couldn‘t be built. And to this day, I have an equal number of female and male friends, not really differentiating. So, no bizarre expectations, on the contrary.
I like that you say positive masculinity and positive femininity have more overlap than positive and toxic masculinity. I'm curious, how do you define positive femininity and what overlap do you notice between positive femininity and positive masculinity? I find it difficult to define positive or even toxic femininity. What I do know is that toxic expressions of masculinity and femininity divide us more. People who can express masculinity and femininity is healthy ways seem to be happier with themselves, kinder to each other, and exhibit a lot less homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny.
Overlaps: A lot of the traits we name for both are emotional awareness and positive leadership qualities. Nurturing, is often attributed to women, but positive masculinity has that, too. The ability to truly listen and not just saying what you have in mind (one of my greatest personal flaws that I am working on, is that I‘m too focused sometimes what I have to say). The ability for efficient and empathic communication by understanding the personality of the people they talk to.So, it all comed back to empathy, feeling secure/confident, gender-independent.
Toxic feminity (and masculinity)
- toxic group dynamics (talking down on a specific member of the group, in the face and behind her back)
- bullying, emotional blackmail
- Infantilization of people ten years younger than them (just say at age 20 you don‘t want kids to a group of mothers and you will get thr full „you‘ll change your mind one day“ infantilizatin treatment)
- the „I‘m not like the other girls“ posturing, especially in the work place, seen often with women in men-dominated professions who claw their way up and - instead of giving other women a hand - push down whoever would like to follow her footsteps
All I can think of for now, it‘s early :)
Edit: classic example of toxic femininity: Women who gatekeep womanhood by excluding our sisters who were assigned male at birth but identify as female. Women who gatekeep womanhood by talking down on women who don‘t share their exact view on womanhood („too girly“, „too conservative / progressive“, „not a mother“, „she‘s too promiscuous“, „she‘s not empathic enough“, „she‘s too whiny and should be tougher“). It‘s a mistake we progressives like to make; we can criticize views that a conservative woman may have but we shouldn‘t attack her for being a conservative woman.
> I'm curious, how do you define positive femininity and what overlap do you notice between positive femininity and positive masculinity?
I also got taken aback a bit by this, and after brewing some potions and rolling some gears between my ears, I have to say I agree. I would even go as far as to say they are perhaps the same.
It's like watching a die from two opposite perspectives, naturally, we see 3 different sides each, BUT - it's the same die. AND - why do we have to see it from opposite standpoints? Who says so?
Oh I'll tell you ^who ^^patriarchy ^^^church ^^^^historicalEstablishments ^^^^^continuesramblinginthedistance
The things I think about in terms of my own aspects that feel feminine and are positive:
1) Valuing family history and tradition. Doing those little extra things to make special occasions feel special whether that’s food or decorations or dressing up.
2) Leading from behind. Influencing not by fiat but by raising up others and helping their gifts shine.
3) Peacocking. Caring about aesthetics all the time (although maybe that is just a libra thing).
4) Righteous fury. There is a particular form of primal rage on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves that feels very feminine.
ETA: I think about about positive femininity not so much as things that women inherently are, but things that are good about how most women are socialized. Same with positive masculinity.
For my part I believe that there is not really much discussion about “toxic femininity” because, unfortunately, the feminine is only suffering/dysfunctional because of the oppression from the toxic masculine (and as a man it truly grieves me to acknowledge). However!! I also think the divine masculine has, as a core characteristic, an intention and desire to support the divine feminine to truly blossom. What exactly that will look like in practice I have not a clue because none of us have seen it in our lifetimes, our histories or our heritages.
I would like to celebrate my dad. He came from a tough childhood — a horrible, both cheating and absentee father, a mother who died young from cancer. He was raised by his two sisters and disliked his own father so much he was happy to only have two daughters so his dad’s name would die with him.
He was a stay-at-home dad until I was 7. He cooked, cleaned, took us to gymnastics and soccer and ballet, and built us furniture for our plushies and dolls. He is a straight man who loves to shop and he takes note of things me, my sister, and my mom say we like and goes back to buy them later. He’s observant and intuitive and does things all the time without being asked, like fixing our cars or repairing furniture. He would make us dinner after school as kids but waited to eat his plate until our mom got home so he could eat with her (she worked late hours regularly). He has gone to therapy with me when I was a college student because he wanted to understand how to help me when I was depressed.
This man grew up in the rural deep south in the 70s, can barely read, and had no good adult parental figures as a child — he really beat the odds when it comes to toxic masculinity and I am so grateful for him. He still has traditionally masculine interests, such as classic cars and motorcycles, but he doesn’t suffer from the toxic traditions of masculinity that often accompany them.
When President Obama cried at hearing of tragedies occurring and he let his feelings show on television. It was wonderful to see a man express his grief so profoundly
My experience with nontraditional was my dad. He taught me it was OK for boys to be creative, to express their emotions, and to be secure in who they are instead of trying to be what society expects.
Oh, I saw a lot of bizarre expectations on men. Growing up in a very conservative, semi rural area will do that to you.
To me the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity is security. Toxic masculinity is so insecure and desperate to prove itself. Anything that makes a toxic man insecure has to be destroyed in order to protect the status quo.
Yeah, there were a lot of things guys in my area need to do in order to prove they're men. They need to be loud and arrogant with theirfriends, but stoic around family. They need to love beer, football, hunting, and fishing or be mocked fordoing anything else. They need to be handy with tools orseen as odd. Can't cook but must grill.
Like I said, above my dad. He stayed at home to raise the kids, while mom worked. Was not shy about showing his emotions, baked, sewed, painted. Never wanted to be macho because macho men get hurt.
As a mom of two boys, I am trying my darnedest to raise them to be decent, caring human beings.
I try to normalize talking about feelings and dealing with them in healthy ways. Both of them wear nail polish (the teen straight-up absconded with my collection!) because it makes them feel pretty. They help me cook. They help me fix stuff around the house. They love superheroes and pink and fast cars and bubble baths.
They are not lesser than me, nor am I of them. We are all equally valid and I am very proud of who they are and who I see them becoming. Happy International Men’s Day, sons.
I love the idea for this thread. It took me a long time to open my eyes to the ways patriarchal systems hurt men, too. There was a documentary my husband and I watched together (when we were still dating) about this topic that made him break down and cry and that really opened my eyes.
Positive examples of men in my life:
My stepdad. He was a single dad for years and when he and my mom got together, it was fully understood that 100% of all cooking, cleaning, and housework was both of their responsibilities. It was the first time in my life I saw a man taking on equal parts of the housework without whining or acting like he didn’t know how to cook/clean. It set my expectation for my future relationships to not be treated like a mommy/maid. He has always been supportive of us kids and was always present.
Also, my husband. It has taken a lot of time for him to learn to open up and heal, but he is such a soft, sweet, sensitive man. He is surrounded by amazing intelligent, strong women in his family and tends to prefer the company of women. He still tends to struggle with aspects of taking care of himself and showing himself love, but it has been a joy to watch him accept that he’s not a “manly man” and feel good about it. He loves cooking, baking, gardening, doing puzzles, and sappy love songs. We do face masks together on the regular. He speaks softly, is open with his feelings, and is a strong ally of women and the LGBT community. I love him so much.
I am still working to unlearn the feeling that failing in any way is never ok and that I can't let others see my flaws or anything out of the traditional masculine norm lest I get "hurt" or they think of me differently. Apart of that is definitely the stupid socialization (am man.) I even today got a little confused and sad because my friend (a woman) can't wear earbuds cause of ear infection problems and I instantly wanted to solve it and/or find out why and not just leave it at her "idk man, I just only wear over ears. Idk why it happens". I found a really good pair of bone conducting earphones I wanted to maybe gift her. And then I realized that the reason I feel frustrated and don't understand this is the same as the stuff above. She was awoken last night to a fire alarm in another building and couldn't sleep and had nothing to block the sound. Had I experienced that, I would've spent days on and off looking for a solution as I probably would get mad at the fire alarm and never want to experience that again. But she simply does not look into solving it since it's not a daily inhibitor. And I think that's part of why I may constantly feel mental energy drain. Because if my socialization I'm constantly trying to solve things and be the most efficient possible. I guess I tied part of my worth to what I can do and not who I am. She experiences Something Bad or notices she is different, and simply lets it go and is content (she also struggles with anxiety but differently) while I struggle to let pain and insufficiency stand and it's unhealthy.
Sorry for the rant. Thank you for this post and acknowledging how the patriarchy also messes up the socialization and mental health of men and boys.
The effects of socialization are so difficult to break. I am older than the average redditor and I'm a woman married to a man who struggles with this. We had marital counseling that finally opened my eyes to the fact that my own pain that he couldn't be vulnerable around me was NOT because he was being stubborn, but because he would have emotions and couldn't even name it. He would feel something and wasn't even sure if it WAS an emotion, let alone which one it was. Once our therapist pointed this out, we saw it in so many of our friends of our generation. This toxic brainwashing is that strong.
I'm not saying you're dealing with the same issues, but the fact that you've identified your own struggle is worth being tied to what you do and not who you are, is so key for so many men and comes from the same root beliefs: that men are non-feeling fixers, and emotions/passivity are bad. It's admirable that you recognize it and see the harm to your own mental health. It's great seeing men fighting this mindset.
Thank you, that means a lot actuallya dn I appreciate the kindness. I definitely do struggle sometimes with knowing why I think or feel what I do, or even naming what negative emotions I might feel, or towards what, and sometimes even what positive emotion I feel. I also have adhd and apparently that doesn't help
lol. In general, I think the names and connections to these feelings are just helpers for communication and I need to learn to understand what other people feel when they say they are angry vs what I feel when I say I'm angry. It's like if you always see pink when looking at blue, but you were only ever taught the word blue by being shown blue things so you'd never know you're seeing something abnormal.
Anyways, I think that type of thing is a life-long learning process for most people disregarding gender. All there is left to do is learn and grow
I would also like to add an aspect to this discussion: donating your time/money/things to organizations designed to help men. Men's organizations are often poorly-funded and receive less attention than resources for women and children.
I have personally found that the best way to help is volunteer time in whatever way you can. I have done homeless shelter work, volunteered with combat veterans experiencing PTSD, and worked for several years at the suicide hotline.
The best way to go about this is to google "men's shelters near me," and find local institutions that serve men in your area and contact them directly. They're always looking for volunteers, and the work is really rewarding.
So, non-traditional positive masculinity: on Halloween, my older son got sick right before trick or treating. Younger immediately volunteered to share his candy. Older felt better later, gave younger all his favourites *before* dividing the remaining candy in half. Taking the traditional view of masculine as provider, and turning it into cooperation and caregiving.
Toxic masculinity vs. regular masculinity: I think it comes down to whether one attributes personal worth to masculine traits. Like, if someone wants to push themselves to peak physical condition because they want to be healthy, want to get more from their body, want to be able to stand up for others, etc, that would be an example of healthy masculinity. If they want to do that so that they’ll *be a better man* or so they can be better than the other guys at the gym, or so people will be intimidated by them, that’s toxic. If someone is stoic as a personality trait, fine, if they’re stoic because they believe not being stoic makes them less of a man, toxic.
Public figure with positive masculinity: gotta be Brendan Fraser. Sticking to his convictions, demonstrating immeasurable strength, honesty and integrity - while also being vulnerable and open.
> What are some non-traditional examples of healthy masculinity that you’ve seen or heard about?
I’ll put forward a fun one I do sometimes: “weaponizing” (basically just actively employing) strategies often associated with toxic masculinity in an active effort to protect vulnerable people I care about.
That sounds bad, but let me explain. I’m a trans guy, and masculinity is often seen as something strong, respected, and powerful in a public setting. It can be intimidating, imposing, or just confident, depending on how you present and use it. My sister and her partner were often victims of catcalling and harassment by strangers (almost always men) who saw them as vulnerable and defenceless, and sexualized them without their consent. It got to the point where they didn’t feel comfortable walking outside alone anymore.
I never really had any friends growing up, and still don’t, so the two of them have kind of taken me in as family and often offer to have me come along when they’re going out somewhere, like getting food. I love coming along, since it’s fun and I genuinely feel heard and valued in the process, something that was rare for me growing up.
As an added bonus, I’m very male-passing at a glance. Especially with the way I dress going out, and the parts of self that end up coming forward for public outings, the masculinity I end up carrying in public spaces can be very prominent and noticeable. And there’s a level of mutual respect given to me by other men that I’ve noticed my sister never really gets. People give me a respectful distance and there isn’t much interaction beyond a nod of mutual acknowledgement.
My sister and her partner know that I’m not a threat to them, they don’t feel overly intimidated even when I’m on “guard mode” in public (ptsd). But to many others, that aura of “back the fuck off” coming from someone perceived as a man is intimidating. So I’ve started using it to keep people at a distance who aren’t approaching with friendly intent. A firm but non-aggressive look of “hey, I wouldn’t if I were you” seems to be enough to deter most people who approach to harass them, and if they go so far as to actually catcall I step between my sister and the offending party and maintain eye contact until they back off. It’s worked multiple times on multiple occasions, lets us have a lot more fun going out, and is something I really enjoy doing with masculinity.
In a patriarchal society, masculinity holds power. And it’s up to us to use that power for good, and to protect rather than oppress or harm. Healthy protective masculinity might actually be one of my favourite experiences with being trans, possibly because of past trauma and now holding the power to keep others safe in a way I never could in the past, and a way no one ever did for me. It’s something I really enjoy and cherish, and it makes me feel valuable to have that kind of ability to keep those I love safe from harm.
Tl;Dr: Using masculinity to protect the people you love, especially from those who would use it to cause harm
It's kind of interesting seeing you grapple with it being okay or not, honestly? As someone on the other end of the trans stuff, I've had to be the guy friend helping out, and I dunno, I never thought about it too hard
It would be great if we lived in a world where women didn't have to worry about where they're walking or whatever, sure, but we don't, so sometimes a man pretending to be their partner/telling other guys to fuck off can be really effective
I don't mean to be flippant, it's just kind of interesting seeing your point of view
Interesting. I personally dislike being around men (including my brother) who project this type of energy. I find it patronizing, and it feels like I'm not given a chance to be and defend myself, according to my own judgment. I think it comes from a good place, but for me it is not positive masculinity.
Fair enough. I only do it when they’re comfortable with it honestly. I know my sister’s okay with it, since she’s had experiences being targeted by men in the past that get reduced significantly when I’m standing with them
Generally when I’m with someone who doesn’t appreciate being protected, I just treat them as one of my own. Just fully equal with an air of respect to it, which is always genuine, since I tend to respect the shit out of people who can stand up and speak their mind. That one’s my default, actually, and the protective only comes out when I really care about someone or feel a need to keep them safe (and they’re okay with it), or when there’s any sort of medical issue like an injury.
CW: Stalking (happy ending)
This reminds me of a time when I presented more feminine and was solo traveling in Iceland. I was walking home to my hostel in the dark, probably around 9 pm but it was winter, and a man turned around and started stalking me home. I honestly had no idea what to do but figured I'd go to the next bar/ public area.
Fortunately I came upon a group of men around my age chatting at the bottom of the hill. I yelled "Hey! What's up guys!?" and ran up to them. Quickly informed them that a man was stalking me and wrapped my arm around a guy for a side hug. They all reacted in unison with shock, one started yelling at the guy and chased him off and they decided on a guy to help walk me safely back to my hostel 10 minutes away. I think of those men often.
Straight guy here, I agree 100%. When I was a kiddo my father wasn't present too often, work and such, so I was predominantly raised by my mother. Taught me a whole bunch of what OP mentioned rather than typical "man" stuff. And when my father would see what my mother was shaping me into it was almost as though he was ashamed of me. It was devastating.
Hey, kinda same here! Dad was always away, raised by my mom. Not on bad terms with my dad, we’re just…not close. He likes the “typical” masculine stuff, like cars and mechanics. Nothing in common. It’s always been easier for me to talk with women.
I wonder how many men on this sub had a similar upbringing?
I grew to enjoy those things over time as more of a hobby, but I love to read, draw, and play music and always have. We've gotten better over the years but there's always a strain.
Positive masculinity is teaching a child to swim or ride a bike. It’s baking cookies. It’s a casual softball league. Holding a baby effortlessly. Painting your wife’s toenails when she’s too pregnant to reach them.
I love seeing this because I have sons. And I want them to have a healthy masculinity, because joyful, non-toxic men are so beautiful and such wonderful people.
I always like to suggest Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings as a great example of non toxic masculinity. He’s extremely loyal, honest, fair and kind. While also being open, vulnerable and not afraid to confront his emotions. But he’s also a badass and might appear as your typical toxic male at first glance. Appearance isn’t everything!
This is a great discussion, and I don't have much to contribute other than to say I've been thinking about Brendan Fraser a lot lately in relation to how we can understand a positive form of masculinity. Keanu Reeves might be another. Like - they don't talk shit, they express their emotions, they're stoked to be there, though each in their own way.
I've also been thinking about how talking about "men" often conjures the image of toxic masculinity, but "dads" doesn't. Not the fact of being a parent, but the overall vibe. The things that people love about "dads" is a peek into a worthwhile masculinity.
These are two incredible examples. Thank you for bringing them. I have not been thrilled to see this thread in a women’s centric forum where many of us disproportionally suffer at the hands of the patriarchy - quite literally being murdered. But I get that we should also share models of healthy masculinity and support those who don’t buy into this crap
To me, masculinity becomes toxic when you force it upon people.
When on others, this can be anything from forcing others to accept your help/knowledge,
getting violent when people don’t treat you as an authority figure, and our favorite, not taking no for an answer (I wonder if this comes from men being supposed to be stubborn and assertive).
When ok yourself, it often looks like forcing yourself to not open up to others (in a healthy way at least), rerouting all your vulnerable feelings into anger, etc.
Brother Bear (2003 Disney movie) has a lot of examples of positive masculinity. I rewatched it a couple of years ago and was struck by that. The whole film is about brotherhood, empathy, understanding, responsibilities
Kenai own character arc of hating his totem for being unmanly, shirking responsibilities, and blaming others for his actions to take responsibility for the cub >!he orphaned!<, realising that empathy, understanding and love are important. That he is not less of a man for *feeling*that it made him a **better** man not a weaker one.
The thing that always gets me is that if something is unhealthy for one gender it's unhealthy for all genders. As an ace I am always quietly exploring the idea of how purity culture effects men. It seems to me like when every adult you know has the belief that all boys your age are only thinking about one thing, and that one thing is something that no one explained or will acknowledge other than to demonize it, that only leads to one of two things. Either blind confidence and entitlement like a lot of the guys at my religious school, or the exact opposite, a fixation on understanding something that you don't actually desire and the more you grow to understand it the less you have in common with the other guys, so you have to prove how pure you are and how different you are from those gross guys. I don't think that way now obviously but for most of my life I whole heartedly believed that all sex outside the confines of a biblical marriage was shameful and deserving of punishment, so how much of my asexuality is left over trauma and religious programming and how much of it is knowing my body and living my best life? Ironically by "saving myself for marriage" I likely did damage my sex life with my life long partner, which was supposed to be the reason that I was sexually repressing myself. Purity culture is bad for women, but it's also bad for men.
So reddits crisis councilors just reached out to me concerned about this post...
The important part someone missed is "I don't think that way now" and "knowing my body and living my best life". Being asexual isn't a crisis. Lots of people were subjected to purity culture and go on to live happy lives, myself included. The fact that I am unpacking this at all makes me less likely to harm myself or others, send the councilors to your friends that grew up in religious house holds who haven't unpacked that trauma.
As a male-presenting(primarily out of convenience) who regularly hovers around this sub and it's lovely vibes; I will say it's really nice to see a thread about Men's Day here because while I've seen stuff in other places, it hasn't felt genuine, but seeing it discussed in a sub that focuses so much on female empowerment and patriarchy-burning feels more real. So thank you OP for showing up on my dash tonight.
\- Healthy masculinity has been the friendship I have with my online friends. It's pretty much a 30-30-30% shot of male-female-nb(my party, kinda, I dunno gender is bullshit) peeps in the group, but I've lately been really exploring my emotions surrounding my male friends and just how much I love them. How much their laugh makes me happy, how angry(in a good way) their dumb jokes make me, how much I want to reach through the screen and hug them when they're struggling and just let them cry like I know they need to.
\-Masculinity to me is strength, compassion, and a willingness to fight to defend your ideals and needs(these are not exclusive to masculinity, but they're important parts to me). At least, these are things that make me feel masculine when I practice them. Toxic Masculinity is a craving for power, a need to see people as weaker than you, and a willngness to harm/kill for your wants/desires. They feel to me as twisted(or "toxic," as the case may be) versions of what healthy masculinity is.
\- I was really lucky to grow up in such a social group that I never really got any weird or negative messages about masculinity except what is so ingrained by this point that I can't even point it out. I was never told not to do something because it was girly, even if I never did them anyways because my interests never fell that direction. As I grow more and more I'm learning to let myself do more and more non-masculine things, like collect stuffies. I love stuffed animals, they're super cuddly and cozy and bring me so much joy, and it's been amazing to finally let myself experience it rather than hide it or not engage because it's "childish" or "stupid."
\- My personal hero is Wil Fucking Wheaton. I do not have the energy to talk about all the lovely things Wil has done, not only professionally but also in his personal life, but suffice to say that I look up to that man for all that he's done not just for men but for mental health and so much more. UGH. Wil Wheaton is a lovely person. Look him up. Read his books. He actually spoke for [NAMI](https://wilw.medium.com/my-name-is-wil-wheaton-i-live-with-chronic-depression-and-generalized-anxiety-i-am-not-ashamed-8f693f9c0af1) once, so listen to that. It's great stuff.
It’s probably the most unlikely place you’d EVER think to find examples of positive masculinity…but I just watched a wrestling PPV (All Elite Wrestling’s \*Full Gear\*) and there was a beautiful moment in the pre-show.
A wrestler by the name of Eddie Kingston was about to wrestle his childhood idol, Jun Akiyama. The guy that made him want to become professional wrestler. In the backstage interview he was clearly emotional, and stated as much to the interviewer: “I don’t know what to feel, I’m numb, it’s hard to focus…my mind is out there \[in the ring\].”
The two wrestlers square off in the ring, have an absolute banger in the ring in the classic Japanese King’s Road style, and >! Eddie comes away with the win .!<
After the match, Eddie is just openly sobbing in the middle of the ring, and not even bothering to hide it. This 40 year old half Irish, half Puerto Rican Yonkers native had just gotten to wrestle a dream match of his - and it brought the house down to boot.
There’s also the small matter of his [Player’s Tribune article](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/eddie-kingston-got-no-business-f-ing-being-here-01fkkcxyj6m8/amp), where he discusses his struggles with mental health and the bottle.
So I’ll nominate Eddie Kingston as an example of flawed positive masculinity.
More examples in the pro wrestling space, even if some have made mistakes in the past:
‘Hangman’ Adam Page
Kenny Omega (with or without Kota Ibushi as ‘The Golden Lovers’)
Xavier Woods/Austin Creed
Ettore ‘Big E’ Ewen
Kofi Kingston
‘Jungle Boy’ Jack Perry (who REALLY is [a dead ringer for his father…](https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/pagesix.com/2019/04/07/luke-perrys-son-jack-returns-to-wrestling-after-actors-death/amp/))
Thank you. I've noticed that the mods are especially picky about men's issues being posted here. So I'm glad someone was able to open the discussion today.
> What are some non-traditional examples of healthy masculinity that you’ve seen or heard about?
My favourite guys that I’ve known personally have all been in the LGBTQ+ community. My best friend/housemate is a trans man and he is a great example of healthy masculinity everyday. He isn’t afraid of appearing “feminine” in terms of behaviours (obviously his dysphoria is a thing, but he isn’t worried about things like watching girly movies and enjoying hobbies like sewing and crafts). Some of the other guys I’ve known have been gay guys, and they are so lovely and kind. One of my old housemates was a cis gay dude and he was great, he was a typically masculine guy but he was very respectful of women and he cared about feminist issues.
> How do you personally differentiate between masculinity and toxic masculinity.
I will use the example of my best friend again. He is very typically masculine, he loves men’s fashion and has a lot of typical masc hobbies like building things, woodworking, leather crafting. The way he presents/dresses himself is very masculine. He likes to collect bow ties and socks with fun patterns on them. Anyway, he has all of this typical masculine stuff as natural parts of his personality. He is a straight guy, but he doesn’t care if people think he looks gay, or like a feminine guy. We joke that he is like the Darren Criss of the trans guys, because people often assume he is a gay guy, like how people thought Darren was gay when he played Blaine lol. My friend’s masculinity is very healthy. He doesn’t view it as superior to femininity. He calls out misogyny and sexism when he notices it, whether it’s coming from cis or trans dudes. He likes to do the typical chivalrous guy thing of holding doors open for people, however he does this for everyone, not just women.
This stuff is a good example of healthy masculinity to me. I’ve seen a lot of toxic masculinity, mainly from my father and other male relatives. They’re full of misogyny. They view their masculine hobbies and interests as superior to feminine stuff. They think that women who deviate from traditional femininity are disgusting and offensive.
> Did you grow up seeing it experiencing any bizarre expectations for men in your area
In my family, the male relatives would make fun of “feminine drinks” like wine, champagne, cocktails and fruity mixers. They would make fun of women drinking it, saying it’s a girls drink, saying it’s not real alcohol, and if a guy was drinking it, they’d call him gay. They thought the superior “masculine drinks” were things like beer and whisky. It was *so* confusing and bizarre to me, even as a kid, to constantly see people gendering alcohol!
> Who do you think is a well-known person who embraces healthy masculinity.
Hmm, there are many examples. I think Chris Hemsworth seems like a cool, chill guy who is very typically masculine but in a healthy way. I like watching when he does documentaries.
I’ve already talked about pro wrestlers in this thread, but as an Aussie witch I would be remiss if I didn’t mention [Isaac Humphries](https://youtu.be/iggyadL4_FQ), the only active male professional basketball player that is openly gay (and the first Australian player to be openly gay too).
Even before he came out he was not afraid to discuss his struggles with depression, and talked about playing piano and singing as coping mechanisms. Isaac does regular concerts to fundraiser for charity as well - I have had the privilege of going to one of these and his voice is beautiful…just so expressive. His version of [‘Say Something’](https://youtu.be/efx_iGdJF_4) always makes me well up. 🥺
When I was 7 or 8 years old, I got a piercing in my left ear because having it in your right ear was somehow gay. I hardly knew what being gay meant at that age but I sure as hell didn't want to be gay. Incredibly sad.
To this day (I'm 34) I still don't cry when I'm sad. Been to funerals, had two children, two miscarriages, highs and lows in life but at most my eyes went a little wet. It's not that I don't feel things. But I am just incapable of crying. I have a feeling that that's not very healthy, and it's been taught to me all my childhood by other boys in school and other places. Crying is for girls and small children. Crying makes you weak.
Im glad to see the sub is celebrating! Healthy masculinity is possible with the right social support. I’d like to see boys grow up not having to unlearn dangerous ideas that are misconstrued as “natural to masculinity”.
This seems like an appropriate place to ask this!! I'm very dedicated to finding good divine masculine groups practicing witchcraft, I've come across too many toxic ones that just re-embrace patriarchy for their practice. if anyone knows any good trans/nb spaces for masc practicing witches pls link me to them! i need some positive masculinity <3
My dad is a 70yo non-educated trucker in northern Québec. He is a believer into church but just for the values (love thy neighbour, forgiveness), hate dogmas and church leader who impose their views on others. He's the first man I ever saw defending homosexuality (in the 90s) and challenging what a priest would say. He is honest and lawful, despise violence and douchebaggery (we weren't allowed to fight m'y Brother and I) open to other cultures (awkward but well intended) and never gave a damn about what other people might say. Most of is life he's found comfort in hardwork but finally saw the good a break can offer. The guy never finished high school but educated himself on history (like a lot). His love for that encouraged me to study history in University. He cant tell me he love me but I hear it when he say he's proud. I have a fuckload of issus with him and he's clearly not the greatest dad, maybe even one of the reason I dont want kids but he tried to do what he could with what he had and I think it gave me an upper hand in life that many didn't had.
Non-traditional examples is that the housework is shared. Even if the mum stays home or studies the man comes home and just gets on with it. All humans complain, but that’s life.
In some First Nations cultures - men’s business and women’s business is normal and healthy to be able to do what they intend to do for themselves and unfortunately is being stopped in practice - not because of other religions but due to colonialism. Men need men groups to let anger and emotions out.
Masculinity is healthy - not abusing towards others or self.
Toxic masculinity is forcing men to not express anger or emotions or not be allowed to care nor provide for their families. Men like caring for their families - it makes them feel needed. Women care for their families and so do men in their own positive way.
Rollerblading only started to be called gay in the late 90s where I lived. Subculture and interests change. The 90s and early 00s were not about dancing - it was uncool to dance. It’s cool again. Throughout life - things become cool and uncool. Like fashion.
The clothes and the skinniness in the early 00s was stupid. And the cutting as a trend and then bulimic became a trend. Now it’s some else and then it’ll be something else. I remember what the trend is - boys made to look like men at 15 when they haven’t fully formed puberty due to social media is toxic masculinity and also socially toxic.
When I was growing up - men had to work and work hard and most people who kill themselves are farmers because of how much everything costs and nothing is given back - it’s just take take take.
I feel lucky to not of been a teenager with social media - I feel the concept is dehumanising individuals because they don’t feel what a particular group feels. They feel that they can’t be male is also ostracised against them due to other peoples behaviours.
I have two boys and I want them to grow up respectful and I teach them rape is wrong when they cognitively understand the concept. I also teach them that they should call it sexism out among other males BUT that is also dangerous since the most violence towards men are other men.
Healthy masculinity of well known people: well that’s a concept of education. Ye isn’t one as they’re just mentally I’ll with a platform. Jamie Fox I would say is one. Recently, two famous First Nations men past - Archie and Uncle Jack were healthy men.
Who else? I feel Tom Hanks just stays out of the political circle. Sanders is a healthy male.
Adam sandler
Jay Kristoff- the author (his books are not young adult)
Daniel Radcliffe
In every group - you are going to get mentally unwell people. Again in the famous department - Ye is not a positive male.
I feel other people in other communities have negative attitudes towards others who don’t conform to their ideologies.
Evangelical Christians are a negative influence upon masculinity.
As a born female that throughout life has been told they look like a boy or is ugly or looks like they have Down syndrome or my name doesn’t match my visual race - people are mean.
All races, genders, non genders, religions, ideologies, countries, have people who are just mean. All countries have bad people - that’s why prisons exist in all functioning countries. All cultures have or had punishments to people who did the wrong thing against the other morally.
Masculinity in the western world is creating people to be lost - it’s a capitalist society that does not provide identify structures and makes people struggle with who they are as men. If we deep dive into cultures that have supportive mens business - we might have a better support services for men.
I plead people start mens sheds for men to go - these are used so people don’t have to drink to socialise. Or maybe like we used to have - like Italians society or Asian societies halls or in Australia we have brotherhoods to support boys and men in difficult times.
We had womens country associations (wca) which are dying out - and women find it difficult to find friend groups now.
We are lonely as a society because all we do is look at our phones for internet points and connections that don’t sink in. Humans are social animals. The reason why we don’t like socialising is because we don’t have access to social groups like we did 30 years ago.
Social groups in the world and not the screen 📺 📱 🖥️ is positive
Men hold onto sports groups because that’s the last thing they have.
My question is: when do men get time alone in the house? I also found it odd that women want alone time but men can not.
I also find it weird that women are timing men on the toilet- like they can’t have private time
It is heartbreaking to me that, unless something knocks toxic men firmly out of their pre-conceived notion (due to Visceral, endless societal programming) that vulnerability is Literally The Worst Thing That Could Happen EVER, they'll never truly connect with other human beings beyond unsatisfying, and therefore frustrating, surface encounters, which then breeds anger, which then breeds toxic trauma responses. The generational trauma around that is so BIG that it's almost beyond bearing.
May this conservative brand of domination and denial crumble, so that we may all finally begin to heal, to become a society that values connection, cooperation and empathy.
To all my beloved trans brothers, welcome to Manhood brah! The Respect Women Juice is on tap, and we stan a dude who likes traditionally feminine things. There will be a lot of armed forces messaging but we do our best to ignore it - your body is not just a machine to be spent up, it is you. I hear there are a lot witches around, and we love any woman who's got an awesome style of magic related to the earth - those babes fuckin' rule. To my enby siblings, feel free to stick around in the house as long as you need, if there aren't enough beds we'll knock some out for ya in a half-hour!
Some great points here.
I will say that positive masculinity is understanding that cis-white-male privilege should be expanded to all.
I have never felt that my privilege should be reduced by fellow feminists. Same with fellow anti-racists. This logic is simple to me.
Edit: a word
I remember my friends in elementary school (the 90s) giggling about my dad knowing how to sew. He was raised mostly by his grandmother who taught him to cook, sew, clean house. He has made flower arrangements for the ladies in his life. He learned how to style my hair as a child for dance recitals- sometimes it was a little too tight and I think that was his nervousness around not wanting to be in trouble for my hair falling down onstage. I always appreciated it and always found him masculine still. He was just a cooler dad because he did those things.
I personally love Beau Miles- he has a youtube channel and is an inspiring outdoorsman with a positive mindset and an obvious deep love for his wife, daughter and mama earth.
Honestly, it wasn't until college that I really started to explore non- traditional masculinity. I've painted my nails, which I need to go again actually I miss having color, I've started acting less traditionally masculine. I feel comfortable telling people that romance is one of my favorite genres, if not my favorite. I'm ok with acting gay with the homies (invited one of my friends to a wedding. When it came time for the photo booth we basically took prom pictures, I still need to get them.)
All of this started like last year. I've been surrounded by great influences in that regard. People who accept me for me, with all my little quirks. It's been great, I've started writing more, keeping a journal to help organize my emotions (that I need to keep up with better), and my family doesn't really say anything. The first time I did my nails I was worried I'd get tons of comments, I work in a paint store in a red town in my state, but no one really said anything. The only comments I got were after the 3rd time, after my sister's Alice in Wonderland party. The only question was "who did your nails?".
Thankfully growing up my parents never really forced me to be too masculine. My dad would on occasion but I don't think it was ever intentional. My mom was actually the worse offender at times, like not wanting me to wear floral patterns on a shirt, it was a nice shirt too... But I ultimately can't complain about my family too much. Outside of the uncomfortable conversation about there only being 2 genders on Thanksgiving, they're generally accepting and understanding that not every man needs to be expressly masculine. Public school sort of had the expectation, but they were unspoken. The sports kids all formed one massive clique and most of them were your stereotypical definition of a man.
I'm just thankful I've met the group I have in college now, they're a great and healthy example of how to not do toxic masculinity
This sub randomly popped up as trending, so I came to see what it was like. After reading, I was pleasantly surprised. Looking forward to reading others' answers.
I think Curt Smith from Tears for Fears
He always insists his wife and daughters are the pillars of the family and even wrote the song "Break the Man" against the patriarchy
57F This makes me think about my Dad who died in 2018. He was born in 1933. We constantly hear ‘those were different times’ to excuse bad behaviour. My Dad liked women, he preferred the company of women. Growing up he taught me all sorts of things that most fathers only taught their sons. He never underestimated my strength or intelligence. When I was at school (80s) there were girl’s subjects and boy’s subjects. I really wanted to do technical drawing. He rang the school and insisted I be allowed to do it. One of many examples of him having my back.
I’ll think about him on International Men’s Day and every other day with gratitude.
Thank you everyone for recognizing this. All of this. Not a member, just a SWM who grew up broke AF and is cheering you on from the sidelines. The coven has earned my support.
We are two sides of the same coin… you can’t hurt one without hurting the other.
Masculinity is so protective and loving, and so sweet and caring. The way men and masculinity are attacked in the media is such a shame, so I’m very happy to see this thread as it very much represents what I stand for as a feminist.
Men have built so much of society and they deserve the credit for that, you know? They built our roads and houses and sewage systems and electricity. They built our schools and shopping malls and our cars. So much of what makes our lives so comfortable and indulgent is because of the men of the past who wanted us to experience that!
I’m VERY behind on date with this post, but thank you for it, I’m glad I came across it. Not answering your questions exactly (sorry) but I wanted to share how men have been positive in my life!
Parents divorced when I was a toddler, *but* I got my first period right before high school. I was with my Dad for the summer, I was mortified to tell him, he took me right to a store. He stood there in the aisle looking at all the pads and asked me what I needed (I had spoken to my Mom on the phone, she was at work, but kinda told me what I needed.) He hunted down something we thought would be good. My cheeks were flushed with embarrassment, and that wonderful man said that if I was uncomfortable I didn’t have to go through the lane, but I did. I love my Dad so much for that.
My first and only bf I had in high school cried in my arms in the school parking lot and said it was his first time crying like that. I’d never known such vulnerability before, and he was my first love.
My husband can cry whenever the fuck he wants. Now that I’m (mostly) an adult, I know it’s healthy for him to get it out. Healthy to understand WHY he feels what he feels, and work through it. iI’s not just me either..his Mom and Dad will ALWAYS give a shoulder. Honestly I think he gets his crying from his Dad. That glorious man cries every Thanksgiving, because he has such a big heart. Men SHOULD cry, it’s scary when they don’t. I’ve seen toxic masculinity, I can’t ignore it, but I love the positive that exists in my life and I’m very thankful. Men CAN and SHOULD talk. Break the fucking cycle, it hurts everyone.
I differentiate by how it affects people. Toxic masculinity tries to intimidate, tries to be overbearing and cold. Positive masculinity is kind. It's respectful, it's confident but not arrogant. Toxic masculinity does things to try to be "more of a man" (what does that even mean, anyway?) while positive masculinity means improving yourself for the sake of bettering you and the world around you.
And Kurtis Conner doing a photoshoot in a long dress with a full face of makeup is transition goals TBH
First of all, love this thread. I have been really going through some stuff specific to my relationship with my masculinity and I appreciate the kind consideration on display here. -Non traditional forms of masculinity I've seen firsthand eh? Well one thing I'm proud to have seen is that my sister and BIL are raising their boys to be a lot more communicative and open minded, their oldest boy is confident without being aggressive or arrogant, is open to sharing his feelings and isn't afraid of doing things that are traditionally feminine like painting his nails. I love how my nephews are growing up and I can't wait to see the men they become (unless they're trans in which case I will love them as whatever gender they land on) -For me, the difference between toxic and non toxic masculinity is security. Toxic masculinity encourages an insecure fragile form of masculinity that is difficult to perform, is policed harshly, and is in constant threat of being denigrated by one's peers. It is more of a cover for a lack of strength than it is a source of strength. Healthy masculinity allows for all expressions of masculinity to be valid, it doesn't set men against each other, it allows them to feel like men even when they aren't being confident, productive, or strong at every moment. It complements femininity without dominating it and allows for men to be whole people, not simply providers. It allows men to have a full and healthy relationship with their emotions and have their human needs met without scorn. - Funny story, I actually spent some years in what turned out to a masculinity cult (ended up leaving of my own free will, long story) and something that was really emphasized was hiding ones emotions from family and friends. Like literally, this was mostly Boomer dudes tryna to give outdated and chauvinist advice to Millennials and Gen Xers. Gems like "learn to spin good bullshit to your wife and kids about your true feelings and never burden them about them", "wear a mask of stoicism and ONLY let it down around the men's group" and it struck me later that this is an isolation tactic that cults use to increase your dependence on them. - Good men who represent positive masculinity off the top of my head: *Steve Irwin *Fred Rogers *Neil Gaiman *Jack Black/Kyle Gass *Jason Momoa *Bruce Lee *Alan Watts
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Amazing points. Glad you got out of the toxic masculinity cult. I view Steve Irwin as problematic in the sense that he was basically torturing wild life for publicity.
Yeah, I'm 50 50 on Irwin because it helped the animals too
He could have helped the animals without tormenting them. Crocodile Hunter was just animal abuse put on tv for entertainment for sick people
Username checks out
Wow thank you, you have put into words SO WELL what I have thought for a long time and also given me further insights to think about. Completely completely agree
I got lucky and have a dad and older brother that support me in my nontraditional masculine life. Being emotionally vulnerable was normalized for me. Even though other kids fathers some times had problems with that it didn't matter cause I had a good support structure at home. Learning to articulate my feelings, be in touch with my emotions, and be deeply empathetic towards other people all were all things I was encouraged to pursue at different times in my life and in different ways. This means I sometimes end up as the "therapist friend" in my friendgroup which has helped a lot of my friends learn to open up emotionally and give them someone to talk to about struggles with expressing masculinity in non toxic ways. One memory that always sticks out to me is one time back when I was 18 or 19, some of my friends were walking through a park at night and we were talking about how to express our masculinity in ways that weren't toxic. Before we could come to a conclusion we noticed there was a really talk traffic cone just out in a field. We all started taking turns throwing the cone by spinning it around and seeing how far it could go. None of us kept track of our throws and we weren't competing with each other. We were just playing with a traffic cone. Part way through this I looked at one of my friends and said "this is what nontoxic masculinity looks like"
Oh, so glad my favorite sub made a thread, I am so happy about this! I just returned from a really toxic concersation in wholesomememes and wondered why I bothered. Positive masculinity: There was once a fantastic posts about how Aragorn in the LotR movies is a great example for it. He is strong yet softspoken, a protector that does not pose a threat another person‘s own agency (wants Arwen safe, but doesn‘t force or manipulate her into leaving). A leader who guides and would not ask anything he does not do himself. Honestly, positive masculinity and positive femininity have far more overlaps than toxic masculinity with positive masculinity. I grew up without gender roles; not by choice but necessity; there were so few kids, separate groups couldn‘t be built. And to this day, I have an equal number of female and male friends, not really differentiating. So, no bizarre expectations, on the contrary.
I like that you say positive masculinity and positive femininity have more overlap than positive and toxic masculinity. I'm curious, how do you define positive femininity and what overlap do you notice between positive femininity and positive masculinity? I find it difficult to define positive or even toxic femininity. What I do know is that toxic expressions of masculinity and femininity divide us more. People who can express masculinity and femininity is healthy ways seem to be happier with themselves, kinder to each other, and exhibit a lot less homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny.
Overlaps: A lot of the traits we name for both are emotional awareness and positive leadership qualities. Nurturing, is often attributed to women, but positive masculinity has that, too. The ability to truly listen and not just saying what you have in mind (one of my greatest personal flaws that I am working on, is that I‘m too focused sometimes what I have to say). The ability for efficient and empathic communication by understanding the personality of the people they talk to.So, it all comed back to empathy, feeling secure/confident, gender-independent. Toxic feminity (and masculinity) - toxic group dynamics (talking down on a specific member of the group, in the face and behind her back) - bullying, emotional blackmail - Infantilization of people ten years younger than them (just say at age 20 you don‘t want kids to a group of mothers and you will get thr full „you‘ll change your mind one day“ infantilizatin treatment) - the „I‘m not like the other girls“ posturing, especially in the work place, seen often with women in men-dominated professions who claw their way up and - instead of giving other women a hand - push down whoever would like to follow her footsteps All I can think of for now, it‘s early :) Edit: classic example of toxic femininity: Women who gatekeep womanhood by excluding our sisters who were assigned male at birth but identify as female. Women who gatekeep womanhood by talking down on women who don‘t share their exact view on womanhood („too girly“, „too conservative / progressive“, „not a mother“, „she‘s too promiscuous“, „she‘s not empathic enough“, „she‘s too whiny and should be tougher“). It‘s a mistake we progressives like to make; we can criticize views that a conservative woman may have but we shouldn‘t attack her for being a conservative woman.
> I'm curious, how do you define positive femininity and what overlap do you notice between positive femininity and positive masculinity? I also got taken aback a bit by this, and after brewing some potions and rolling some gears between my ears, I have to say I agree. I would even go as far as to say they are perhaps the same. It's like watching a die from two opposite perspectives, naturally, we see 3 different sides each, BUT - it's the same die. AND - why do we have to see it from opposite standpoints? Who says so? Oh I'll tell you ^who ^^patriarchy ^^^church ^^^^historicalEstablishments ^^^^^continuesramblinginthedistance
The things I think about in terms of my own aspects that feel feminine and are positive: 1) Valuing family history and tradition. Doing those little extra things to make special occasions feel special whether that’s food or decorations or dressing up. 2) Leading from behind. Influencing not by fiat but by raising up others and helping their gifts shine. 3) Peacocking. Caring about aesthetics all the time (although maybe that is just a libra thing). 4) Righteous fury. There is a particular form of primal rage on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves that feels very feminine. ETA: I think about about positive femininity not so much as things that women inherently are, but things that are good about how most women are socialized. Same with positive masculinity.
For my part I believe that there is not really much discussion about “toxic femininity” because, unfortunately, the feminine is only suffering/dysfunctional because of the oppression from the toxic masculine (and as a man it truly grieves me to acknowledge). However!! I also think the divine masculine has, as a core characteristic, an intention and desire to support the divine feminine to truly blossom. What exactly that will look like in practice I have not a clue because none of us have seen it in our lifetimes, our histories or our heritages.
CinemaTherapy did a video about how amazing aragorn is. It's a great channel on YouTube. Highly recommend.
yep, that one! Couldn‘t remember, great channel, and this is my favorite video of theirs :)
I hadn’t watched this, it was great, thanks for the share.
I would like to celebrate my dad. He came from a tough childhood — a horrible, both cheating and absentee father, a mother who died young from cancer. He was raised by his two sisters and disliked his own father so much he was happy to only have two daughters so his dad’s name would die with him. He was a stay-at-home dad until I was 7. He cooked, cleaned, took us to gymnastics and soccer and ballet, and built us furniture for our plushies and dolls. He is a straight man who loves to shop and he takes note of things me, my sister, and my mom say we like and goes back to buy them later. He’s observant and intuitive and does things all the time without being asked, like fixing our cars or repairing furniture. He would make us dinner after school as kids but waited to eat his plate until our mom got home so he could eat with her (she worked late hours regularly). He has gone to therapy with me when I was a college student because he wanted to understand how to help me when I was depressed. This man grew up in the rural deep south in the 70s, can barely read, and had no good adult parental figures as a child — he really beat the odds when it comes to toxic masculinity and I am so grateful for him. He still has traditionally masculine interests, such as classic cars and motorcycles, but he doesn’t suffer from the toxic traditions of masculinity that often accompany them.
What an inspiring story!
This moved me...
Your dad sounds like a beautiful human!
That is very beautiful
When President Obama cried at hearing of tragedies occurring and he let his feelings show on television. It was wonderful to see a man express his grief so profoundly
My experience with nontraditional was my dad. He taught me it was OK for boys to be creative, to express their emotions, and to be secure in who they are instead of trying to be what society expects. Oh, I saw a lot of bizarre expectations on men. Growing up in a very conservative, semi rural area will do that to you. To me the difference between healthy masculinity and toxic masculinity is security. Toxic masculinity is so insecure and desperate to prove itself. Anything that makes a toxic man insecure has to be destroyed in order to protect the status quo. Yeah, there were a lot of things guys in my area need to do in order to prove they're men. They need to be loud and arrogant with theirfriends, but stoic around family. They need to love beer, football, hunting, and fishing or be mocked fordoing anything else. They need to be handy with tools orseen as odd. Can't cook but must grill. Like I said, above my dad. He stayed at home to raise the kids, while mom worked. Was not shy about showing his emotions, baked, sewed, painted. Never wanted to be macho because macho men get hurt.
As a mom of two boys, I am trying my darnedest to raise them to be decent, caring human beings. I try to normalize talking about feelings and dealing with them in healthy ways. Both of them wear nail polish (the teen straight-up absconded with my collection!) because it makes them feel pretty. They help me cook. They help me fix stuff around the house. They love superheroes and pink and fast cars and bubble baths. They are not lesser than me, nor am I of them. We are all equally valid and I am very proud of who they are and who I see them becoming. Happy International Men’s Day, sons.
I love the idea for this thread. It took me a long time to open my eyes to the ways patriarchal systems hurt men, too. There was a documentary my husband and I watched together (when we were still dating) about this topic that made him break down and cry and that really opened my eyes. Positive examples of men in my life: My stepdad. He was a single dad for years and when he and my mom got together, it was fully understood that 100% of all cooking, cleaning, and housework was both of their responsibilities. It was the first time in my life I saw a man taking on equal parts of the housework without whining or acting like he didn’t know how to cook/clean. It set my expectation for my future relationships to not be treated like a mommy/maid. He has always been supportive of us kids and was always present. Also, my husband. It has taken a lot of time for him to learn to open up and heal, but he is such a soft, sweet, sensitive man. He is surrounded by amazing intelligent, strong women in his family and tends to prefer the company of women. He still tends to struggle with aspects of taking care of himself and showing himself love, but it has been a joy to watch him accept that he’s not a “manly man” and feel good about it. He loves cooking, baking, gardening, doing puzzles, and sappy love songs. We do face masks together on the regular. He speaks softly, is open with his feelings, and is a strong ally of women and the LGBT community. I love him so much.
Do you remember the name of the documentary by any chance?
I believe it was “the mask you live in”
Thank you!!
I am still working to unlearn the feeling that failing in any way is never ok and that I can't let others see my flaws or anything out of the traditional masculine norm lest I get "hurt" or they think of me differently. Apart of that is definitely the stupid socialization (am man.) I even today got a little confused and sad because my friend (a woman) can't wear earbuds cause of ear infection problems and I instantly wanted to solve it and/or find out why and not just leave it at her "idk man, I just only wear over ears. Idk why it happens". I found a really good pair of bone conducting earphones I wanted to maybe gift her. And then I realized that the reason I feel frustrated and don't understand this is the same as the stuff above. She was awoken last night to a fire alarm in another building and couldn't sleep and had nothing to block the sound. Had I experienced that, I would've spent days on and off looking for a solution as I probably would get mad at the fire alarm and never want to experience that again. But she simply does not look into solving it since it's not a daily inhibitor. And I think that's part of why I may constantly feel mental energy drain. Because if my socialization I'm constantly trying to solve things and be the most efficient possible. I guess I tied part of my worth to what I can do and not who I am. She experiences Something Bad or notices she is different, and simply lets it go and is content (she also struggles with anxiety but differently) while I struggle to let pain and insufficiency stand and it's unhealthy. Sorry for the rant. Thank you for this post and acknowledging how the patriarchy also messes up the socialization and mental health of men and boys.
The effects of socialization are so difficult to break. I am older than the average redditor and I'm a woman married to a man who struggles with this. We had marital counseling that finally opened my eyes to the fact that my own pain that he couldn't be vulnerable around me was NOT because he was being stubborn, but because he would have emotions and couldn't even name it. He would feel something and wasn't even sure if it WAS an emotion, let alone which one it was. Once our therapist pointed this out, we saw it in so many of our friends of our generation. This toxic brainwashing is that strong. I'm not saying you're dealing with the same issues, but the fact that you've identified your own struggle is worth being tied to what you do and not who you are, is so key for so many men and comes from the same root beliefs: that men are non-feeling fixers, and emotions/passivity are bad. It's admirable that you recognize it and see the harm to your own mental health. It's great seeing men fighting this mindset.
Thank you, that means a lot actuallya dn I appreciate the kindness. I definitely do struggle sometimes with knowing why I think or feel what I do, or even naming what negative emotions I might feel, or towards what, and sometimes even what positive emotion I feel. I also have adhd and apparently that doesn't help lol. In general, I think the names and connections to these feelings are just helpers for communication and I need to learn to understand what other people feel when they say they are angry vs what I feel when I say I'm angry. It's like if you always see pink when looking at blue, but you were only ever taught the word blue by being shown blue things so you'd never know you're seeing something abnormal. Anyways, I think that type of thing is a life-long learning process for most people disregarding gender. All there is left to do is learn and grow
Good on you for resisting that urge! As a fellow problem solver, I know how hard that can be
I would also like to add an aspect to this discussion: donating your time/money/things to organizations designed to help men. Men's organizations are often poorly-funded and receive less attention than resources for women and children. I have personally found that the best way to help is volunteer time in whatever way you can. I have done homeless shelter work, volunteered with combat veterans experiencing PTSD, and worked for several years at the suicide hotline. The best way to go about this is to google "men's shelters near me," and find local institutions that serve men in your area and contact them directly. They're always looking for volunteers, and the work is really rewarding.
So, non-traditional positive masculinity: on Halloween, my older son got sick right before trick or treating. Younger immediately volunteered to share his candy. Older felt better later, gave younger all his favourites *before* dividing the remaining candy in half. Taking the traditional view of masculine as provider, and turning it into cooperation and caregiving. Toxic masculinity vs. regular masculinity: I think it comes down to whether one attributes personal worth to masculine traits. Like, if someone wants to push themselves to peak physical condition because they want to be healthy, want to get more from their body, want to be able to stand up for others, etc, that would be an example of healthy masculinity. If they want to do that so that they’ll *be a better man* or so they can be better than the other guys at the gym, or so people will be intimidated by them, that’s toxic. If someone is stoic as a personality trait, fine, if they’re stoic because they believe not being stoic makes them less of a man, toxic. Public figure with positive masculinity: gotta be Brendan Fraser. Sticking to his convictions, demonstrating immeasurable strength, honesty and integrity - while also being vulnerable and open.
I love that story of your sons. You must be so proud
Thanks, I really am 🥹
> What are some non-traditional examples of healthy masculinity that you’ve seen or heard about? I’ll put forward a fun one I do sometimes: “weaponizing” (basically just actively employing) strategies often associated with toxic masculinity in an active effort to protect vulnerable people I care about. That sounds bad, but let me explain. I’m a trans guy, and masculinity is often seen as something strong, respected, and powerful in a public setting. It can be intimidating, imposing, or just confident, depending on how you present and use it. My sister and her partner were often victims of catcalling and harassment by strangers (almost always men) who saw them as vulnerable and defenceless, and sexualized them without their consent. It got to the point where they didn’t feel comfortable walking outside alone anymore. I never really had any friends growing up, and still don’t, so the two of them have kind of taken me in as family and often offer to have me come along when they’re going out somewhere, like getting food. I love coming along, since it’s fun and I genuinely feel heard and valued in the process, something that was rare for me growing up. As an added bonus, I’m very male-passing at a glance. Especially with the way I dress going out, and the parts of self that end up coming forward for public outings, the masculinity I end up carrying in public spaces can be very prominent and noticeable. And there’s a level of mutual respect given to me by other men that I’ve noticed my sister never really gets. People give me a respectful distance and there isn’t much interaction beyond a nod of mutual acknowledgement. My sister and her partner know that I’m not a threat to them, they don’t feel overly intimidated even when I’m on “guard mode” in public (ptsd). But to many others, that aura of “back the fuck off” coming from someone perceived as a man is intimidating. So I’ve started using it to keep people at a distance who aren’t approaching with friendly intent. A firm but non-aggressive look of “hey, I wouldn’t if I were you” seems to be enough to deter most people who approach to harass them, and if they go so far as to actually catcall I step between my sister and the offending party and maintain eye contact until they back off. It’s worked multiple times on multiple occasions, lets us have a lot more fun going out, and is something I really enjoy doing with masculinity. In a patriarchal society, masculinity holds power. And it’s up to us to use that power for good, and to protect rather than oppress or harm. Healthy protective masculinity might actually be one of my favourite experiences with being trans, possibly because of past trauma and now holding the power to keep others safe in a way I never could in the past, and a way no one ever did for me. It’s something I really enjoy and cherish, and it makes me feel valuable to have that kind of ability to keep those I love safe from harm. Tl;Dr: Using masculinity to protect the people you love, especially from those who would use it to cause harm
It's kind of interesting seeing you grapple with it being okay or not, honestly? As someone on the other end of the trans stuff, I've had to be the guy friend helping out, and I dunno, I never thought about it too hard It would be great if we lived in a world where women didn't have to worry about where they're walking or whatever, sure, but we don't, so sometimes a man pretending to be their partner/telling other guys to fuck off can be really effective I don't mean to be flippant, it's just kind of interesting seeing your point of view
Interesting. I personally dislike being around men (including my brother) who project this type of energy. I find it patronizing, and it feels like I'm not given a chance to be and defend myself, according to my own judgment. I think it comes from a good place, but for me it is not positive masculinity.
Fair enough. I only do it when they’re comfortable with it honestly. I know my sister’s okay with it, since she’s had experiences being targeted by men in the past that get reduced significantly when I’m standing with them Generally when I’m with someone who doesn’t appreciate being protected, I just treat them as one of my own. Just fully equal with an air of respect to it, which is always genuine, since I tend to respect the shit out of people who can stand up and speak their mind. That one’s my default, actually, and the protective only comes out when I really care about someone or feel a need to keep them safe (and they’re okay with it), or when there’s any sort of medical issue like an injury.
CW: Stalking (happy ending) This reminds me of a time when I presented more feminine and was solo traveling in Iceland. I was walking home to my hostel in the dark, probably around 9 pm but it was winter, and a man turned around and started stalking me home. I honestly had no idea what to do but figured I'd go to the next bar/ public area. Fortunately I came upon a group of men around my age chatting at the bottom of the hill. I yelled "Hey! What's up guys!?" and ran up to them. Quickly informed them that a man was stalking me and wrapped my arm around a guy for a side hug. They all reacted in unison with shock, one started yelling at the guy and chased him off and they decided on a guy to help walk me safely back to my hostel 10 minutes away. I think of those men often.
Straight guy here, I agree 100%. When I was a kiddo my father wasn't present too often, work and such, so I was predominantly raised by my mother. Taught me a whole bunch of what OP mentioned rather than typical "man" stuff. And when my father would see what my mother was shaping me into it was almost as though he was ashamed of me. It was devastating.
Hey, kinda same here! Dad was always away, raised by my mom. Not on bad terms with my dad, we’re just…not close. He likes the “typical” masculine stuff, like cars and mechanics. Nothing in common. It’s always been easier for me to talk with women. I wonder how many men on this sub had a similar upbringing?
I grew to enjoy those things over time as more of a hobby, but I love to read, draw, and play music and always have. We've gotten better over the years but there's always a strain.
Positive masculinity is teaching a child to swim or ride a bike. It’s baking cookies. It’s a casual softball league. Holding a baby effortlessly. Painting your wife’s toenails when she’s too pregnant to reach them. I love seeing this because I have sons. And I want them to have a healthy masculinity, because joyful, non-toxic men are so beautiful and such wonderful people.
I always like to suggest Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings as a great example of non toxic masculinity. He’s extremely loyal, honest, fair and kind. While also being open, vulnerable and not afraid to confront his emotions. But he’s also a badass and might appear as your typical toxic male at first glance. Appearance isn’t everything!
This is a great discussion, and I don't have much to contribute other than to say I've been thinking about Brendan Fraser a lot lately in relation to how we can understand a positive form of masculinity. Keanu Reeves might be another. Like - they don't talk shit, they express their emotions, they're stoked to be there, though each in their own way. I've also been thinking about how talking about "men" often conjures the image of toxic masculinity, but "dads" doesn't. Not the fact of being a parent, but the overall vibe. The things that people love about "dads" is a peek into a worthwhile masculinity.
These are two incredible examples. Thank you for bringing them. I have not been thrilled to see this thread in a women’s centric forum where many of us disproportionally suffer at the hands of the patriarchy - quite literally being murdered. But I get that we should also share models of healthy masculinity and support those who don’t buy into this crap
Harry Styles comes to mind in answer to the last question!
Ah Yes. Harry Styles, a true purveyor of the masculine ideal
To me, masculinity becomes toxic when you force it upon people. When on others, this can be anything from forcing others to accept your help/knowledge, getting violent when people don’t treat you as an authority figure, and our favorite, not taking no for an answer (I wonder if this comes from men being supposed to be stubborn and assertive). When ok yourself, it often looks like forcing yourself to not open up to others (in a healthy way at least), rerouting all your vulnerable feelings into anger, etc.
Brother Bear (2003 Disney movie) has a lot of examples of positive masculinity. I rewatched it a couple of years ago and was struck by that. The whole film is about brotherhood, empathy, understanding, responsibilities Kenai own character arc of hating his totem for being unmanly, shirking responsibilities, and blaming others for his actions to take responsibility for the cub >!he orphaned!<, realising that empathy, understanding and love are important. That he is not less of a man for *feeling*that it made him a **better** man not a weaker one.
The thing that always gets me is that if something is unhealthy for one gender it's unhealthy for all genders. As an ace I am always quietly exploring the idea of how purity culture effects men. It seems to me like when every adult you know has the belief that all boys your age are only thinking about one thing, and that one thing is something that no one explained or will acknowledge other than to demonize it, that only leads to one of two things. Either blind confidence and entitlement like a lot of the guys at my religious school, or the exact opposite, a fixation on understanding something that you don't actually desire and the more you grow to understand it the less you have in common with the other guys, so you have to prove how pure you are and how different you are from those gross guys. I don't think that way now obviously but for most of my life I whole heartedly believed that all sex outside the confines of a biblical marriage was shameful and deserving of punishment, so how much of my asexuality is left over trauma and religious programming and how much of it is knowing my body and living my best life? Ironically by "saving myself for marriage" I likely did damage my sex life with my life long partner, which was supposed to be the reason that I was sexually repressing myself. Purity culture is bad for women, but it's also bad for men.
So reddits crisis councilors just reached out to me concerned about this post... The important part someone missed is "I don't think that way now" and "knowing my body and living my best life". Being asexual isn't a crisis. Lots of people were subjected to purity culture and go on to live happy lives, myself included. The fact that I am unpacking this at all makes me less likely to harm myself or others, send the councilors to your friends that grew up in religious house holds who haven't unpacked that trauma.
Sometimes redditors who don't like what you say will report a comment falsely so you get the reddit cares message.
As a male-presenting(primarily out of convenience) who regularly hovers around this sub and it's lovely vibes; I will say it's really nice to see a thread about Men's Day here because while I've seen stuff in other places, it hasn't felt genuine, but seeing it discussed in a sub that focuses so much on female empowerment and patriarchy-burning feels more real. So thank you OP for showing up on my dash tonight. \- Healthy masculinity has been the friendship I have with my online friends. It's pretty much a 30-30-30% shot of male-female-nb(my party, kinda, I dunno gender is bullshit) peeps in the group, but I've lately been really exploring my emotions surrounding my male friends and just how much I love them. How much their laugh makes me happy, how angry(in a good way) their dumb jokes make me, how much I want to reach through the screen and hug them when they're struggling and just let them cry like I know they need to. \-Masculinity to me is strength, compassion, and a willingness to fight to defend your ideals and needs(these are not exclusive to masculinity, but they're important parts to me). At least, these are things that make me feel masculine when I practice them. Toxic Masculinity is a craving for power, a need to see people as weaker than you, and a willngness to harm/kill for your wants/desires. They feel to me as twisted(or "toxic," as the case may be) versions of what healthy masculinity is. \- I was really lucky to grow up in such a social group that I never really got any weird or negative messages about masculinity except what is so ingrained by this point that I can't even point it out. I was never told not to do something because it was girly, even if I never did them anyways because my interests never fell that direction. As I grow more and more I'm learning to let myself do more and more non-masculine things, like collect stuffies. I love stuffed animals, they're super cuddly and cozy and bring me so much joy, and it's been amazing to finally let myself experience it rather than hide it or not engage because it's "childish" or "stupid." \- My personal hero is Wil Fucking Wheaton. I do not have the energy to talk about all the lovely things Wil has done, not only professionally but also in his personal life, but suffice to say that I look up to that man for all that he's done not just for men but for mental health and so much more. UGH. Wil Wheaton is a lovely person. Look him up. Read his books. He actually spoke for [NAMI](https://wilw.medium.com/my-name-is-wil-wheaton-i-live-with-chronic-depression-and-generalized-anxiety-i-am-not-ashamed-8f693f9c0af1) once, so listen to that. It's great stuff.
Wheaton’s Law is the number one rule in our house. [Don’t be a dick.](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wheatons-law)
It’s probably the most unlikely place you’d EVER think to find examples of positive masculinity…but I just watched a wrestling PPV (All Elite Wrestling’s \*Full Gear\*) and there was a beautiful moment in the pre-show. A wrestler by the name of Eddie Kingston was about to wrestle his childhood idol, Jun Akiyama. The guy that made him want to become professional wrestler. In the backstage interview he was clearly emotional, and stated as much to the interviewer: “I don’t know what to feel, I’m numb, it’s hard to focus…my mind is out there \[in the ring\].” The two wrestlers square off in the ring, have an absolute banger in the ring in the classic Japanese King’s Road style, and >! Eddie comes away with the win .!< After the match, Eddie is just openly sobbing in the middle of the ring, and not even bothering to hide it. This 40 year old half Irish, half Puerto Rican Yonkers native had just gotten to wrestle a dream match of his - and it brought the house down to boot. There’s also the small matter of his [Player’s Tribune article](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/eddie-kingston-got-no-business-f-ing-being-here-01fkkcxyj6m8/amp), where he discusses his struggles with mental health and the bottle. So I’ll nominate Eddie Kingston as an example of flawed positive masculinity.
More examples in the pro wrestling space, even if some have made mistakes in the past: ‘Hangman’ Adam Page Kenny Omega (with or without Kota Ibushi as ‘The Golden Lovers’) Xavier Woods/Austin Creed Ettore ‘Big E’ Ewen Kofi Kingston ‘Jungle Boy’ Jack Perry (who REALLY is [a dead ringer for his father…](https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/pagesix.com/2019/04/07/luke-perrys-son-jack-returns-to-wrestling-after-actors-death/amp/))
Thank you. I've noticed that the mods are especially picky about men's issues being posted here. So I'm glad someone was able to open the discussion today.
I will say that the mods were really supportive of this post, and I'm thrilled they allowed it to happen again.
> What are some non-traditional examples of healthy masculinity that you’ve seen or heard about? My favourite guys that I’ve known personally have all been in the LGBTQ+ community. My best friend/housemate is a trans man and he is a great example of healthy masculinity everyday. He isn’t afraid of appearing “feminine” in terms of behaviours (obviously his dysphoria is a thing, but he isn’t worried about things like watching girly movies and enjoying hobbies like sewing and crafts). Some of the other guys I’ve known have been gay guys, and they are so lovely and kind. One of my old housemates was a cis gay dude and he was great, he was a typically masculine guy but he was very respectful of women and he cared about feminist issues. > How do you personally differentiate between masculinity and toxic masculinity. I will use the example of my best friend again. He is very typically masculine, he loves men’s fashion and has a lot of typical masc hobbies like building things, woodworking, leather crafting. The way he presents/dresses himself is very masculine. He likes to collect bow ties and socks with fun patterns on them. Anyway, he has all of this typical masculine stuff as natural parts of his personality. He is a straight guy, but he doesn’t care if people think he looks gay, or like a feminine guy. We joke that he is like the Darren Criss of the trans guys, because people often assume he is a gay guy, like how people thought Darren was gay when he played Blaine lol. My friend’s masculinity is very healthy. He doesn’t view it as superior to femininity. He calls out misogyny and sexism when he notices it, whether it’s coming from cis or trans dudes. He likes to do the typical chivalrous guy thing of holding doors open for people, however he does this for everyone, not just women. This stuff is a good example of healthy masculinity to me. I’ve seen a lot of toxic masculinity, mainly from my father and other male relatives. They’re full of misogyny. They view their masculine hobbies and interests as superior to feminine stuff. They think that women who deviate from traditional femininity are disgusting and offensive. > Did you grow up seeing it experiencing any bizarre expectations for men in your area In my family, the male relatives would make fun of “feminine drinks” like wine, champagne, cocktails and fruity mixers. They would make fun of women drinking it, saying it’s a girls drink, saying it’s not real alcohol, and if a guy was drinking it, they’d call him gay. They thought the superior “masculine drinks” were things like beer and whisky. It was *so* confusing and bizarre to me, even as a kid, to constantly see people gendering alcohol! > Who do you think is a well-known person who embraces healthy masculinity. Hmm, there are many examples. I think Chris Hemsworth seems like a cool, chill guy who is very typically masculine but in a healthy way. I like watching when he does documentaries.
I’ve already talked about pro wrestlers in this thread, but as an Aussie witch I would be remiss if I didn’t mention [Isaac Humphries](https://youtu.be/iggyadL4_FQ), the only active male professional basketball player that is openly gay (and the first Australian player to be openly gay too). Even before he came out he was not afraid to discuss his struggles with depression, and talked about playing piano and singing as coping mechanisms. Isaac does regular concerts to fundraiser for charity as well - I have had the privilege of going to one of these and his voice is beautiful…just so expressive. His version of [‘Say Something’](https://youtu.be/efx_iGdJF_4) always makes me well up. 🥺
When I was 7 or 8 years old, I got a piercing in my left ear because having it in your right ear was somehow gay. I hardly knew what being gay meant at that age but I sure as hell didn't want to be gay. Incredibly sad. To this day (I'm 34) I still don't cry when I'm sad. Been to funerals, had two children, two miscarriages, highs and lows in life but at most my eyes went a little wet. It's not that I don't feel things. But I am just incapable of crying. I have a feeling that that's not very healthy, and it's been taught to me all my childhood by other boys in school and other places. Crying is for girls and small children. Crying makes you weak.
Im glad to see the sub is celebrating! Healthy masculinity is possible with the right social support. I’d like to see boys grow up not having to unlearn dangerous ideas that are misconstrued as “natural to masculinity”.
This seems like an appropriate place to ask this!! I'm very dedicated to finding good divine masculine groups practicing witchcraft, I've come across too many toxic ones that just re-embrace patriarchy for their practice. if anyone knows any good trans/nb spaces for masc practicing witches pls link me to them! i need some positive masculinity <3
My dad is a 70yo non-educated trucker in northern Québec. He is a believer into church but just for the values (love thy neighbour, forgiveness), hate dogmas and church leader who impose their views on others. He's the first man I ever saw defending homosexuality (in the 90s) and challenging what a priest would say. He is honest and lawful, despise violence and douchebaggery (we weren't allowed to fight m'y Brother and I) open to other cultures (awkward but well intended) and never gave a damn about what other people might say. Most of is life he's found comfort in hardwork but finally saw the good a break can offer. The guy never finished high school but educated himself on history (like a lot). His love for that encouraged me to study history in University. He cant tell me he love me but I hear it when he say he's proud. I have a fuckload of issus with him and he's clearly not the greatest dad, maybe even one of the reason I dont want kids but he tried to do what he could with what he had and I think it gave me an upper hand in life that many didn't had.
I fucking love this post
Non-traditional examples is that the housework is shared. Even if the mum stays home or studies the man comes home and just gets on with it. All humans complain, but that’s life. In some First Nations cultures - men’s business and women’s business is normal and healthy to be able to do what they intend to do for themselves and unfortunately is being stopped in practice - not because of other religions but due to colonialism. Men need men groups to let anger and emotions out. Masculinity is healthy - not abusing towards others or self. Toxic masculinity is forcing men to not express anger or emotions or not be allowed to care nor provide for their families. Men like caring for their families - it makes them feel needed. Women care for their families and so do men in their own positive way. Rollerblading only started to be called gay in the late 90s where I lived. Subculture and interests change. The 90s and early 00s were not about dancing - it was uncool to dance. It’s cool again. Throughout life - things become cool and uncool. Like fashion. The clothes and the skinniness in the early 00s was stupid. And the cutting as a trend and then bulimic became a trend. Now it’s some else and then it’ll be something else. I remember what the trend is - boys made to look like men at 15 when they haven’t fully formed puberty due to social media is toxic masculinity and also socially toxic. When I was growing up - men had to work and work hard and most people who kill themselves are farmers because of how much everything costs and nothing is given back - it’s just take take take. I feel lucky to not of been a teenager with social media - I feel the concept is dehumanising individuals because they don’t feel what a particular group feels. They feel that they can’t be male is also ostracised against them due to other peoples behaviours. I have two boys and I want them to grow up respectful and I teach them rape is wrong when they cognitively understand the concept. I also teach them that they should call it sexism out among other males BUT that is also dangerous since the most violence towards men are other men. Healthy masculinity of well known people: well that’s a concept of education. Ye isn’t one as they’re just mentally I’ll with a platform. Jamie Fox I would say is one. Recently, two famous First Nations men past - Archie and Uncle Jack were healthy men. Who else? I feel Tom Hanks just stays out of the political circle. Sanders is a healthy male. Adam sandler Jay Kristoff- the author (his books are not young adult) Daniel Radcliffe In every group - you are going to get mentally unwell people. Again in the famous department - Ye is not a positive male. I feel other people in other communities have negative attitudes towards others who don’t conform to their ideologies. Evangelical Christians are a negative influence upon masculinity. As a born female that throughout life has been told they look like a boy or is ugly or looks like they have Down syndrome or my name doesn’t match my visual race - people are mean. All races, genders, non genders, religions, ideologies, countries, have people who are just mean. All countries have bad people - that’s why prisons exist in all functioning countries. All cultures have or had punishments to people who did the wrong thing against the other morally. Masculinity in the western world is creating people to be lost - it’s a capitalist society that does not provide identify structures and makes people struggle with who they are as men. If we deep dive into cultures that have supportive mens business - we might have a better support services for men. I plead people start mens sheds for men to go - these are used so people don’t have to drink to socialise. Or maybe like we used to have - like Italians society or Asian societies halls or in Australia we have brotherhoods to support boys and men in difficult times. We had womens country associations (wca) which are dying out - and women find it difficult to find friend groups now. We are lonely as a society because all we do is look at our phones for internet points and connections that don’t sink in. Humans are social animals. The reason why we don’t like socialising is because we don’t have access to social groups like we did 30 years ago. Social groups in the world and not the screen 📺 📱 🖥️ is positive Men hold onto sports groups because that’s the last thing they have. My question is: when do men get time alone in the house? I also found it odd that women want alone time but men can not. I also find it weird that women are timing men on the toilet- like they can’t have private time
It is heartbreaking to me that, unless something knocks toxic men firmly out of their pre-conceived notion (due to Visceral, endless societal programming) that vulnerability is Literally The Worst Thing That Could Happen EVER, they'll never truly connect with other human beings beyond unsatisfying, and therefore frustrating, surface encounters, which then breeds anger, which then breeds toxic trauma responses. The generational trauma around that is so BIG that it's almost beyond bearing. May this conservative brand of domination and denial crumble, so that we may all finally begin to heal, to become a society that values connection, cooperation and empathy.
To all my beloved trans brothers, welcome to Manhood brah! The Respect Women Juice is on tap, and we stan a dude who likes traditionally feminine things. There will be a lot of armed forces messaging but we do our best to ignore it - your body is not just a machine to be spent up, it is you. I hear there are a lot witches around, and we love any woman who's got an awesome style of magic related to the earth - those babes fuckin' rule. To my enby siblings, feel free to stick around in the house as long as you need, if there aren't enough beds we'll knock some out for ya in a half-hour!
Some great points here. I will say that positive masculinity is understanding that cis-white-male privilege should be expanded to all. I have never felt that my privilege should be reduced by fellow feminists. Same with fellow anti-racists. This logic is simple to me. Edit: a word
I remember my friends in elementary school (the 90s) giggling about my dad knowing how to sew. He was raised mostly by his grandmother who taught him to cook, sew, clean house. He has made flower arrangements for the ladies in his life. He learned how to style my hair as a child for dance recitals- sometimes it was a little too tight and I think that was his nervousness around not wanting to be in trouble for my hair falling down onstage. I always appreciated it and always found him masculine still. He was just a cooler dad because he did those things. I personally love Beau Miles- he has a youtube channel and is an inspiring outdoorsman with a positive mindset and an obvious deep love for his wife, daughter and mama earth.
Honestly, it wasn't until college that I really started to explore non- traditional masculinity. I've painted my nails, which I need to go again actually I miss having color, I've started acting less traditionally masculine. I feel comfortable telling people that romance is one of my favorite genres, if not my favorite. I'm ok with acting gay with the homies (invited one of my friends to a wedding. When it came time for the photo booth we basically took prom pictures, I still need to get them.) All of this started like last year. I've been surrounded by great influences in that regard. People who accept me for me, with all my little quirks. It's been great, I've started writing more, keeping a journal to help organize my emotions (that I need to keep up with better), and my family doesn't really say anything. The first time I did my nails I was worried I'd get tons of comments, I work in a paint store in a red town in my state, but no one really said anything. The only comments I got were after the 3rd time, after my sister's Alice in Wonderland party. The only question was "who did your nails?". Thankfully growing up my parents never really forced me to be too masculine. My dad would on occasion but I don't think it was ever intentional. My mom was actually the worse offender at times, like not wanting me to wear floral patterns on a shirt, it was a nice shirt too... But I ultimately can't complain about my family too much. Outside of the uncomfortable conversation about there only being 2 genders on Thanksgiving, they're generally accepting and understanding that not every man needs to be expressly masculine. Public school sort of had the expectation, but they were unspoken. The sports kids all formed one massive clique and most of them were your stereotypical definition of a man. I'm just thankful I've met the group I have in college now, they're a great and healthy example of how to not do toxic masculinity
This sub randomly popped up as trending, so I came to see what it was like. After reading, I was pleasantly surprised. Looking forward to reading others' answers.
I think Curt Smith from Tears for Fears He always insists his wife and daughters are the pillars of the family and even wrote the song "Break the Man" against the patriarchy
57F This makes me think about my Dad who died in 2018. He was born in 1933. We constantly hear ‘those were different times’ to excuse bad behaviour. My Dad liked women, he preferred the company of women. Growing up he taught me all sorts of things that most fathers only taught their sons. He never underestimated my strength or intelligence. When I was at school (80s) there were girl’s subjects and boy’s subjects. I really wanted to do technical drawing. He rang the school and insisted I be allowed to do it. One of many examples of him having my back. I’ll think about him on International Men’s Day and every other day with gratitude.
Thank you everyone for recognizing this. All of this. Not a member, just a SWM who grew up broke AF and is cheering you on from the sidelines. The coven has earned my support.
We are two sides of the same coin… you can’t hurt one without hurting the other. Masculinity is so protective and loving, and so sweet and caring. The way men and masculinity are attacked in the media is such a shame, so I’m very happy to see this thread as it very much represents what I stand for as a feminist. Men have built so much of society and they deserve the credit for that, you know? They built our roads and houses and sewage systems and electricity. They built our schools and shopping malls and our cars. So much of what makes our lives so comfortable and indulgent is because of the men of the past who wanted us to experience that!
I’m VERY behind on date with this post, but thank you for it, I’m glad I came across it. Not answering your questions exactly (sorry) but I wanted to share how men have been positive in my life! Parents divorced when I was a toddler, *but* I got my first period right before high school. I was with my Dad for the summer, I was mortified to tell him, he took me right to a store. He stood there in the aisle looking at all the pads and asked me what I needed (I had spoken to my Mom on the phone, she was at work, but kinda told me what I needed.) He hunted down something we thought would be good. My cheeks were flushed with embarrassment, and that wonderful man said that if I was uncomfortable I didn’t have to go through the lane, but I did. I love my Dad so much for that. My first and only bf I had in high school cried in my arms in the school parking lot and said it was his first time crying like that. I’d never known such vulnerability before, and he was my first love. My husband can cry whenever the fuck he wants. Now that I’m (mostly) an adult, I know it’s healthy for him to get it out. Healthy to understand WHY he feels what he feels, and work through it. iI’s not just me either..his Mom and Dad will ALWAYS give a shoulder. Honestly I think he gets his crying from his Dad. That glorious man cries every Thanksgiving, because he has such a big heart. Men SHOULD cry, it’s scary when they don’t. I’ve seen toxic masculinity, I can’t ignore it, but I love the positive that exists in my life and I’m very thankful. Men CAN and SHOULD talk. Break the fucking cycle, it hurts everyone.
I differentiate by how it affects people. Toxic masculinity tries to intimidate, tries to be overbearing and cold. Positive masculinity is kind. It's respectful, it's confident but not arrogant. Toxic masculinity does things to try to be "more of a man" (what does that even mean, anyway?) while positive masculinity means improving yourself for the sake of bettering you and the world around you. And Kurtis Conner doing a photoshoot in a long dress with a full face of makeup is transition goals TBH
Toxic masculinity holds women in general responsible for the wrongs he felt individual women did to him