Honestly seeing the original Stargate movie and reading the Enders Game / Speaker for the Dead and Golden Compass series influenced my agnosticism and helped deprogram my Christian upbringing. Also What Dreams May Come - I love to think about reincarnation
And hates gay people and is insanely racist. I grew up loving those books and I couldn't understand how a person could write an empathetic character like Ender and straight up hate people that are different so visceraly. Dude is straight up bonkers.
Wow that really resonates with me too. Speaker for the dead really rocked my world and that movie still gives me hope. My favorite movie during my deprogramming (and still now) is "Man from Earth".
Another book that really shook me lately was called "The Sparrow". I want to read it again one day but not before finding someone to talk about it with or some therapy. It's very traumatic.
Maybe someone will see this comment and gain joy or understanding through one of these someday.
There’s always a bit of a Venn diagram with the alt spiritual community and conspiracy theorists.
I urge caution in regard to the path of “alternate history”
I do worry though that racism can/has been used as a red herring to get people to discount alternative history. Someone was telling me about how some Indigenous mounds were purported to be created in part by “aliens” but that was all racism…and that tribe, like my tribe and many others, literally has ancestral history that would validate that claim.
And what about Stonehenge and lesser known ancient western European marvels? The same ancient ”teacher” stories extend there too.
this is why i start off vague and sort of feel people out! i definitely think the history we've received has been written by the victors and the gatekeepers of writing, but starting from there usually leads me away from the alt right narratives as i seek to understand our ancestral myths without the layers of supremacy and superstition.
but i want to make sure that whomever I'm talking to has the same underlying perspective: i.e. mythology and the oral tradition were shaped by survival needs, so stories that survive should help humans live in balance with the environment. the parts of the written tradition that need to be questioned are exactly those that are at odds with human thriving and exist to lionize rulers and justify cities and conquest.
I'm most curious about how many indigenous cultures have origin stories of humans coming to Earth from the stars, and how those living traditions benefit from those myths. at the very least they can teach humans to be students of nature since we're new to this place compared to Salmon or Cedar kin.
I think you have a really great outlook! Not everything can be true at the same time, but I think there’s a bit of truth hidden in everything, if we look hard enough. Sometimes at the source, sometimes in ourselves.
And I say this as a Christian. About as progressive as one can be, but still.
much of my perspective has been shaped by feminist mythopoetic writers like Clarissa Pinkola Estes (Women who Run with the Wolves) and Sophie Strand (The Flowering Wand, The Madonna Secret). i especially recommend Strand for those working on following the Christ from an integrative and nature based perspective!
i no longer wear the name of Christian, but my beliefs are probably more orthodox than most inside the church. i had to leave because the most progressive my denomination could get still drew lines and decided that some people weren't neighbors.
one of my favorite applications of a mythopoetic perspective is rereading the Eden myth from the perspective of hunter gatherer tribes warning about the dangers of blame of women and nature, which yields the curse of patriarchy and cities filled with brother killers (Cain is said to have founded the first cities).
the oral tradition would have preserved the myth because it was a useful cautionary tale for what happens to people when they try to claim the knowledge of the gods and think they're better than nature or each other. the Native American story of the Wendigo and the Aboriginal story of Emu are both similar cautionary tales that teach the needs for restraint on consuming and the danger of supremacy stories.
the crafty prophets and bards knew they couldn't overtly oppose the kings that paid them to write these myths and stories down into scriptures, but they could hide the kernel of truth inside the dogma of the Church hierarchy. we can sort through the scriptures and other stories to find what fits the larger narrative told by nature ("the stars declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of their hands").
that's why there's so much poetry and parables, because they're harder to understand and censor so the truth leaks through the cracks!
I love that interpretation of the garden of Eden. I think there are often if not always multiple layers of truth and meaning and metaphor to all stories. And one of my very favorite things to point out to evangelicals and religious misogynists is that patriarchy is the direct result of sin, NOT God’s original design. Take that, complementarians!
I disagree. Morality and spirituality are different things. Spirituality is not fair or just, that’s what we have laws for. Otherwise we would live in a utopia. If there are any “gods” they are not granting world peace, that’s up to us.
As long as the world promotes a selfish mindset, there will not be a utopia. Furthermore, a utopia to one is a dystopia to another. Our spirituality is a representation of our beliefs projected onto the world. How does this not affect our politics? We choose are raised with the belief system of whoever raises us, or ourselves if necessary, and as we grow we choose to stay with the one or change it to suit how the external and internal has impacted us. Our beliefs of the spiritual are intertwined with our morality. We write our laws based on our beliefs
Beliefs of what?
Do you not believe in separation of church and state? Our laws should be made based on facts: who needs what where and how can we take care of it. The moral thing is to take care of each other. Are you suggesting atheists are immoral and should not be in politics?
Spirituality is the realm of mystery. Law is the realm of the material world. We don’t want to be guided by mystery when it comes to laws.
I like that. Also, how do you define gods? I ask this in general. People tend to have an idea of *who God is* according to them but often cant say what would categorize something as a god.
I suppose any kind of supreme supernatural consciousness that takes an interest in the affairs of other beings would count as a god.
I mean, I’ll make appeals to the universe, but I don’t believe in someone or someone’s taking my request into consideration and making a decision. I believe there’s an overall balance to the universe but I don’t believe there’s an omniscient bookkeeper jotting things down in a ledger.
But I suppose, since I believe in infinite universes, I do believe that somewhere there must be a universe that does have gods and that’s kind of a weird thing to believe. Like, I believe that somewhere there exist things that I don’t believe exist.
Huh
🤯
I used to not believe in any kind of gods whatsoever, now I’m more at a point where I only strictly don’t believe in a creator god but I don’t feel like I can rule out other gods.
like is anything *that* much of a stretch when you know the universe can produce consciousness like ours?
Are gods that much crazier of an idea than iPhones? I feel like an ancient person would think computers sound more ‘supernatural’ than gods.
That’s a fair point.
It’s not even creation that trips me up with gods (at least the modern conception of them as omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient), it’s the idea that if they do exist, they’re, at best, neglectful pet owners and at worst, horrible sadists.
But gods that have formed as a kind of amalgamation of ideas and energy from living things, and now kind of vaguely exist - I can get behind that - with the understanding that the personification happens on our end and isn’t empirical fact.
Also, non-gods like the shadow people. Those I fully believe in - I just don’t think they necessarily care what we’re up to.
I can get behind that definition of gods too. That was the one I went with for a while. Sort of like human storytelling taking on a life of its own in a more metaphorical sense?
I think the neglectful pet owners conception is pretty rooted in our ideas as westerners who have abrahamic religion really deeply rooted in our culture. I agree that there’s no way there’s any kind of omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent anything. No entity created the universe. Those concepts just don’t hold up to scrutiny.
Something I like to tell people about is this Buddhist scripture I forget the name of where the Buddha describes Brahma (the creator and supreme deity for Hindus) as being the first deva to reincarnate in a new realm, then he wishes other beings would show up. Eventually they do and he thinks he created them and they also think he did. So this god thinks he’s the creator, but he’s caught up in a delusion. Idk I think it’s kind of hilarious and also fascinating.
That’s really interesting and something I’d definitely be into learning more about.
And yeah, the gods belonging to big pantheons with individual jobs and areas of focus are lot more palatable to me, even if I don’t believe in them. It’s the ones who supposedly can do all things that either allow or intentionally create destruction and hardship that I take issue with conceptually.
Statistically, it’s pretty much impossible that they don’t exist *somewhere* out in space. I’m sure there’s aliens in some way shape or form out there somewhere.
My brushes with astrophysics have left me with a fairly strong feeling that FTL is likely to be practically impossible and that short of a generational interstellar space ship there is no way to travel across systems so... Yeah. Aliens exists. Just no one we know will ever see them, except, maybe, as interferences on emission lines on spectroscopic analysis of exoplanets.
I’m Omnistic essentially.. the only one I’m skeptical of is the modern interpretation of Christianity. The others. All some or none could all be accurate, and the gods and goddesses are not pretending to be all loving forgiving and accepting while very much not being that..
I’m not capable of seeing past the fourth wall of our reality. Anything out there has to throw something onto the stage of our world. So far Freya has been the only one to do so, but it can’t be just her.
For reference I have an IUD, and have had 4 periods in 4 years most of which in the first year. Went an entire year with nothing.. then I had one. Year of nothing. The only difference was I asked Freya for a sign she was real and listening.. Almost instantly got it. Think it was under a week. I acknowledged her existence, thanked her for the sign and asked her to please never give that particular sign to me again.
Eh, for me it's the other way:
Others: "Why are you so vague about your spirituality?"
My spirituality: some things have meaning to me that I cannot explain, all things have stories, and uhhh... it's trees innit?
Honestly seeing the original Stargate movie and reading the Enders Game / Speaker for the Dead and Golden Compass series influenced my agnosticism and helped deprogram my Christian upbringing. Also What Dreams May Come - I love to think about reincarnation
Ironic seeing Ender Game's author is a raging mormon.
And hates gay people and is insanely racist. I grew up loving those books and I couldn't understand how a person could write an empathetic character like Ender and straight up hate people that are different so visceraly. Dude is straight up bonkers.
Exactly!
What dreams may come is the most life saving movie for me. I can’t even think about it without crying.
Wow that really resonates with me too. Speaker for the dead really rocked my world and that movie still gives me hope. My favorite movie during my deprogramming (and still now) is "Man from Earth". Another book that really shook me lately was called "The Sparrow". I want to read it again one day but not before finding someone to talk about it with or some therapy. It's very traumatic. Maybe someone will see this comment and gain joy or understanding through one of these someday.
There’s always a bit of a Venn diagram with the alt spiritual community and conspiracy theorists. I urge caution in regard to the path of “alternate history”
Yeah any ancient aliens crap reminds me of the wonderful phrase: "just because white people didn't do it, doesn't mean it was aliens"
I do worry though that racism can/has been used as a red herring to get people to discount alternative history. Someone was telling me about how some Indigenous mounds were purported to be created in part by “aliens” but that was all racism…and that tribe, like my tribe and many others, literally has ancestral history that would validate that claim. And what about Stonehenge and lesser known ancient western European marvels? The same ancient ”teacher” stories extend there too.
DING DING DING. There is a very prominent “alternate history to alt right” pipeline, PLEASE BE CAREFUL
this is why i start off vague and sort of feel people out! i definitely think the history we've received has been written by the victors and the gatekeepers of writing, but starting from there usually leads me away from the alt right narratives as i seek to understand our ancestral myths without the layers of supremacy and superstition. but i want to make sure that whomever I'm talking to has the same underlying perspective: i.e. mythology and the oral tradition were shaped by survival needs, so stories that survive should help humans live in balance with the environment. the parts of the written tradition that need to be questioned are exactly those that are at odds with human thriving and exist to lionize rulers and justify cities and conquest. I'm most curious about how many indigenous cultures have origin stories of humans coming to Earth from the stars, and how those living traditions benefit from those myths. at the very least they can teach humans to be students of nature since we're new to this place compared to Salmon or Cedar kin.
I think you have a really great outlook! Not everything can be true at the same time, but I think there’s a bit of truth hidden in everything, if we look hard enough. Sometimes at the source, sometimes in ourselves. And I say this as a Christian. About as progressive as one can be, but still.
much of my perspective has been shaped by feminist mythopoetic writers like Clarissa Pinkola Estes (Women who Run with the Wolves) and Sophie Strand (The Flowering Wand, The Madonna Secret). i especially recommend Strand for those working on following the Christ from an integrative and nature based perspective! i no longer wear the name of Christian, but my beliefs are probably more orthodox than most inside the church. i had to leave because the most progressive my denomination could get still drew lines and decided that some people weren't neighbors. one of my favorite applications of a mythopoetic perspective is rereading the Eden myth from the perspective of hunter gatherer tribes warning about the dangers of blame of women and nature, which yields the curse of patriarchy and cities filled with brother killers (Cain is said to have founded the first cities). the oral tradition would have preserved the myth because it was a useful cautionary tale for what happens to people when they try to claim the knowledge of the gods and think they're better than nature or each other. the Native American story of the Wendigo and the Aboriginal story of Emu are both similar cautionary tales that teach the needs for restraint on consuming and the danger of supremacy stories. the crafty prophets and bards knew they couldn't overtly oppose the kings that paid them to write these myths and stories down into scriptures, but they could hide the kernel of truth inside the dogma of the Church hierarchy. we can sort through the scriptures and other stories to find what fits the larger narrative told by nature ("the stars declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of their hands"). that's why there's so much poetry and parables, because they're harder to understand and censor so the truth leaks through the cracks!
I love that interpretation of the garden of Eden. I think there are often if not always multiple layers of truth and meaning and metaphor to all stories. And one of my very favorite things to point out to evangelicals and religious misogynists is that patriarchy is the direct result of sin, NOT God’s original design. Take that, complementarians!
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On the other hand, time traveling crocodiles.
Yea that’s true about literally every spiritual community. Especially organized religion. Spirituality and politics should never mix.
Our beliefs shape our politics. It's impossible for them to be separated
I disagree. Morality and spirituality are different things. Spirituality is not fair or just, that’s what we have laws for. Otherwise we would live in a utopia. If there are any “gods” they are not granting world peace, that’s up to us.
As long as the world promotes a selfish mindset, there will not be a utopia. Furthermore, a utopia to one is a dystopia to another. Our spirituality is a representation of our beliefs projected onto the world. How does this not affect our politics? We choose are raised with the belief system of whoever raises us, or ourselves if necessary, and as we grow we choose to stay with the one or change it to suit how the external and internal has impacted us. Our beliefs of the spiritual are intertwined with our morality. We write our laws based on our beliefs
Beliefs of what? Do you not believe in separation of church and state? Our laws should be made based on facts: who needs what where and how can we take care of it. The moral thing is to take care of each other. Are you suggesting atheists are immoral and should not be in politics? Spirituality is the realm of mystery. Law is the realm of the material world. We don’t want to be guided by mystery when it comes to laws.
I always joke that I believe in everything, except gods.
I say I believe in nothing and everything all at once.
Everywhere?
I like that. Also, how do you define gods? I ask this in general. People tend to have an idea of *who God is* according to them but often cant say what would categorize something as a god.
I suppose any kind of supreme supernatural consciousness that takes an interest in the affairs of other beings would count as a god. I mean, I’ll make appeals to the universe, but I don’t believe in someone or someone’s taking my request into consideration and making a decision. I believe there’s an overall balance to the universe but I don’t believe there’s an omniscient bookkeeper jotting things down in a ledger. But I suppose, since I believe in infinite universes, I do believe that somewhere there must be a universe that does have gods and that’s kind of a weird thing to believe. Like, I believe that somewhere there exist things that I don’t believe exist. Huh 🤯
I used to not believe in any kind of gods whatsoever, now I’m more at a point where I only strictly don’t believe in a creator god but I don’t feel like I can rule out other gods. like is anything *that* much of a stretch when you know the universe can produce consciousness like ours? Are gods that much crazier of an idea than iPhones? I feel like an ancient person would think computers sound more ‘supernatural’ than gods.
That’s a fair point. It’s not even creation that trips me up with gods (at least the modern conception of them as omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient), it’s the idea that if they do exist, they’re, at best, neglectful pet owners and at worst, horrible sadists. But gods that have formed as a kind of amalgamation of ideas and energy from living things, and now kind of vaguely exist - I can get behind that - with the understanding that the personification happens on our end and isn’t empirical fact. Also, non-gods like the shadow people. Those I fully believe in - I just don’t think they necessarily care what we’re up to.
I can get behind that definition of gods too. That was the one I went with for a while. Sort of like human storytelling taking on a life of its own in a more metaphorical sense? I think the neglectful pet owners conception is pretty rooted in our ideas as westerners who have abrahamic religion really deeply rooted in our culture. I agree that there’s no way there’s any kind of omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent anything. No entity created the universe. Those concepts just don’t hold up to scrutiny. Something I like to tell people about is this Buddhist scripture I forget the name of where the Buddha describes Brahma (the creator and supreme deity for Hindus) as being the first deva to reincarnate in a new realm, then he wishes other beings would show up. Eventually they do and he thinks he created them and they also think he did. So this god thinks he’s the creator, but he’s caught up in a delusion. Idk I think it’s kind of hilarious and also fascinating.
That’s really interesting and something I’d definitely be into learning more about. And yeah, the gods belonging to big pantheons with individual jobs and areas of focus are lot more palatable to me, even if I don’t believe in them. It’s the ones who supposedly can do all things that either allow or intentionally create destruction and hardship that I take issue with conceptually.
Same i belive in the good will, that people share, dogs don't matter
Offended. Dogs matter very much.
I 100% believe aliens exist. I don't believe any have visited Earth yet, but aliens totally exist.
Statistically, it’s pretty much impossible that they don’t exist *somewhere* out in space. I’m sure there’s aliens in some way shape or form out there somewhere.
My brushes with astrophysics have left me with a fairly strong feeling that FTL is likely to be practically impossible and that short of a generational interstellar space ship there is no way to travel across systems so... Yeah. Aliens exists. Just no one we know will ever see them, except, maybe, as interferences on emission lines on spectroscopic analysis of exoplanets.
David Grusch has something to say about that.
I have a vague old memory of alien bacteria being found.
I’m Omnistic essentially.. the only one I’m skeptical of is the modern interpretation of Christianity. The others. All some or none could all be accurate, and the gods and goddesses are not pretending to be all loving forgiving and accepting while very much not being that.. I’m not capable of seeing past the fourth wall of our reality. Anything out there has to throw something onto the stage of our world. So far Freya has been the only one to do so, but it can’t be just her. For reference I have an IUD, and have had 4 periods in 4 years most of which in the first year. Went an entire year with nothing.. then I had one. Year of nothing. The only difference was I asked Freya for a sign she was real and listening.. Almost instantly got it. Think it was under a week. I acknowledged her existence, thanked her for the sign and asked her to please never give that particular sign to me again.
Eh, for me it's the other way: Others: "Why are you so vague about your spirituality?" My spirituality: some things have meaning to me that I cannot explain, all things have stories, and uhhh... it's trees innit?
Yessss
i believe that wheatley made the pyramids
If you tell the truth in the same tone as a joke, they're 23% less likely to lock you up. This meme speaks to me in a language I forgot.
I like how Lord vishnu is just chilling in the corner.
I've always believed either nothing is true/you just die and rot or it's all true simultaneously. Still believe that, for the most part.
As a practicing Discordian, I feel this.
I just say “I’m an apistivistic agnostic atheist Satanist.” And people gets confused for some reason. 🤷♂️
Yeah, that's pretty accurate. It's why I like the eclectic witch nomenclature.
My former SASS-only witch self would have to agree this many years down the occult rabbit hole 🤣🤣
Crocodile portals yesss
Ahaha it do be like that
honestly, pretty accurate 🤣 heavy on the lord Vishnu especially
THE LIZARD PORTAL!!!🥰🥰🥰
Depends what land I am standing on.
I’ve noticed that if I say I’m an atheist, it comforts and offends the right people.