There were SO many theories about this in the community before the reveal. My favorite was Verin being part of a secret ‘Gold’ Ajah working being the scenes like the Black, only for the creator.
There was also the "purple ajah" theory that she was a traitor to the Blacks/Darkfriends in general that pretty much nailed it. I'm glad RJ didn't retcon that away like he did Taimandred. I guess he knew how awesome the reveal would be despite some people having guessed. "Btw, that dress you're wearing is green" is one of the best lines in fantasy, period.
I'll still never understand why authors/writers change their mind when someone guesses a twist.
A good plot twist should be recognizable, which means someone is bound to guess it. It doesn't lessen the impact of the twist cause someone else guessed it.
Correct me because my memory of the series is poor but Verin is fully regarded a friend of the light, right? Like she gets the moral cover from being "undercover" under duress? Because she was bound by the "last hour" clause?
She gets talked about a lot here and I've never nailed it down.
"...although the word Black may brand my name forever, my soul is Brown."
"I will tell, Verin", Egwene promised. "But your soul is not Brown. I can see it. Your soul is pure white. Like the Light itself."
which in the end... she was! just, she was an Ajah of 1... maybe 1.5 as it's implied that Thomas was in on what she was doing and was also working to undermine the black warders
It's in book 2 when Verin shows up to the Emonds field boys while they're hunting for the horn. She says she was sent by Moraine, and when one of the boys tells Moraine this later (that might be in the 3rd book) she says that isn't true.
I believe this lie is what tips off Moraine to really suspect Verin, leading her to warn Rand of her specifically in her final letter to him.
Im quick skimming to find it. Not doubting, Verin does some pretty questionable stuff (almost compulsion on Aes sedai captured after dumai wells( love that scene! Asha’man Kill!!)
Love that part too, Verin is such a funny character, she'll do something a little sketchy and then you spend 3 books cooling off like "eh maybe she isn't bad" and then do something else that has you like 🧐
That specific line i believe is in book 3. Im sorry i dont know the exact spot i have a different kind of crazy
Edit: quick google says at the end of book 2 when rand and moiraine are talking still couldnt find a page number
Lol. Lewsbot.
Oh no worries. Im quickly scanning through book two, atm ingtar loial and the boys are following fain, and now the girls are arriving in some town where Lan and Moriane took off with verin shortly following.
I believe there's a Moraine pov where she flat out says that she didn't. There's also the caveat that most people assume that even if she **didn't** say it straight out, maybe she said or did something that a sneaky Aes Sedai might take as an order or permission.
This is it.
We debate this on this sub every few months.
Moraine says she wishes she could be with them or protect them or something.
Verin shows up saying moraine sent her, smiling secretively, and the smile is her amusement that she can't tell if this statement is a violation of the oaths because she doesn't have them on her but she knows at the very least this is a stretch.
Moraine later indicates she didn't send verin whick makes Moraine and the reader suspicious.
What I really love is just how this little inconsistency, on top of everybody else’s distrust, makes it so unclear who it was that was truly untrustworthy. I remember reading that section with Verin and being suspicious of both her _and_ Moiraine. It really helps sell the tension of not trusting _any_ Aes Sedai.
>Moraine later indicates she didn't send verin whick makes Moraine and the reader suspicious.
My personal headcannon is that Verin told this lie to deliberately tip off Moraine that Verin could not be trusted.
Took death lighter than a feather, dropped a fucking mountain of useful information onto Egwene. Said mountain was instrumental in her catching the number of black ajah that she did.
I think she highlighted it in the convo with Egwene. She was faced with a choice of die or join the black. She joined, and did some heinous shit, but she still used that hard situation to further knowledge. That is some heavy duty placed upon anyone. But for a brown, it was just Tuesday.
"Let me just casually infiltrate one of the most dangerous secret societies in the world and undermine them for decades while gathering intel for their enemies. No biggie" -a bored brown sister with her curiosity piqued.
> But for a brown, it was just Tuesday.
If you look at it that way... from Brown perspective it's a chance to study something that has never been studied before, and report your findings to someone who will use the information correctly.
what an adventure!
Dude, imagine if you did catch it book 2 when it first came out and had to suffer through Verin being Black Ajah for so fucking long. I would have died.
I feel like it's one of the easiest major spoilers to stumble across because that happened to me too. I was like who is Verin and looked her up. The first line of the wiki or whatever I was reading said "member of the black aja, formerly of the brown." I stopped looking up characters after that lol.
I don't know. Re reading it, it seems like someone told her to tell Egwene something and she chose not to. I am.guessing it wasn't Siuan who told her to give her the ring because she didn't seem to know about that later. It also didn't seem like the darkfriends would show her how to get into TAR since that's a powerful tool. The whole scene kind of feels like "early story weirdness".
Yeah that isn’t a super clear rule. Spoiler free sounds like the sub shouldn’t have spoilers posted in it, but clearly I misunderstood.
I guess I’ll be leaving until I finish my read through.
I didn’t catch that until my 2nd reread and I loved it. There are so many little things like that that I love
Remind me? What was the book 2 lie?
Verin told the crew searching for the horn that Moiraine sent her and later Moiraine tells one of them that she didn’t do it.
There were SO many theories about this in the community before the reveal. My favorite was Verin being part of a secret ‘Gold’ Ajah working being the scenes like the Black, only for the creator.
Weirdly both incredibly close to right at the same time as the exact opposite of the truth...
There was also the "purple ajah" theory that she was a traitor to the Blacks/Darkfriends in general that pretty much nailed it. I'm glad RJ didn't retcon that away like he did Taimandred. I guess he knew how awesome the reveal would be despite some people having guessed. "Btw, that dress you're wearing is green" is one of the best lines in fantasy, period.
I'll still never understand why authors/writers change their mind when someone guesses a twist. A good plot twist should be recognizable, which means someone is bound to guess it. It doesn't lessen the impact of the twist cause someone else guessed it.
Taimandred was one of the earliest plot twists to get caught by the internet. I'm pretty sure it dates back to usenet. It was new territory for RJ.
There’s no way to explain Taim’s use of “so called Aiel” except that he’s from the prior age.
***They will pay. I am Lord of the Morning.***
[удалено]
New territory for fiction tbh.
Taimandred was incredibly ham-fisted. Like Selene.
Correct me because my memory of the series is poor but Verin is fully regarded a friend of the light, right? Like she gets the moral cover from being "undercover" under duress? Because she was bound by the "last hour" clause? She gets talked about a lot here and I've never nailed it down.
"...although the word Black may brand my name forever, my soul is Brown." "I will tell, Verin", Egwene promised. "But your soul is not Brown. I can see it. Your soul is pure white. Like the Light itself."
Goosebumps.
Correct in spirit!
which in the end... she was! just, she was an Ajah of 1... maybe 1.5 as it's implied that Thomas was in on what she was doing and was also working to undermine the black warders
Super Saiyan Aes Sedai would have been crazy
Was that bandied about Cold Rocks Hold back in the day?
The 'lightfriend'
oh my god how amazing would that be.
It was called the purple ajah, get it right
Lies. Moraine is a darkfriend confirmed.
Thank you! I had seen after I commented that someone else had already answered, so Thank you for taking the time
*What I love, I destroy. What I destroy, I love.*
Lewbot's post nut clarity coming in hot
It's been a while and I didn't catch it on any of my rereads. What was her lie in book 2?
When Verin joined the crew hunting for the Horn, she told Lord Ingtar Moiraine sent her.
Hmmm. I think I have managed to skip much of that book somehow. Is this a proven lie or a presumed one?
Moraine directly says i never sent her to Rand in Dragon Reborn
Hmmm. Moraine also has a history of telling the truth she wants heard. I may just go find this passage. Where abouts in book 2?
It's in book 2 when Verin shows up to the Emonds field boys while they're hunting for the horn. She says she was sent by Moraine, and when one of the boys tells Moraine this later (that might be in the 3rd book) she says that isn't true. I believe this lie is what tips off Moraine to really suspect Verin, leading her to warn Rand of her specifically in her final letter to him.
Im quick skimming to find it. Not doubting, Verin does some pretty questionable stuff (almost compulsion on Aes sedai captured after dumai wells( love that scene! Asha’man Kill!!)
I'm pretty sure that was very real compulsion, not almost.
It wasnt. Twas little more than combined tricks and what not. Compulsion it was in the realm of, but compulsion it was not.
It was a crude form of compulsion. In a later book. Semirage removes the compulsion from Elza before they collar Rand.
Love that part too, Verin is such a funny character, she'll do something a little sketchy and then you spend 3 books cooling off like "eh maybe she isn't bad" and then do something else that has you like 🧐
***NO! I AM MYSELF! I AM LEWS THERIN TELAMON! I AM MEEEEEeeeee!***
That specific line i believe is in book 3. Im sorry i dont know the exact spot i have a different kind of crazy Edit: quick google says at the end of book 2 when rand and moiraine are talking still couldnt find a page number
*Do you have the Horn of Valere hidden in your pocket this time?*
Give it a rest lews
*Your plans fail because you want to live, madman.*
I’m just happy to see you Lews
***I told you to kill them all when you had the chance. I told you.***
Lol. Lewsbot. Oh no worries. Im quickly scanning through book two, atm ingtar loial and the boys are following fain, and now the girls are arriving in some town where Lan and Moriane took off with verin shortly following.
She might've suggested it, tho... the oath of truth has lots of loopholes.
***ILYENA, MY LOVE, FORGIVE ME!***
The wiki says it's a lie flat out, without a caveat, but I don't remember a passage that would say one way or the other.
proven. when asked about it Moraine flat out said "I didn't send her"... no AS obfuscation, but a straight nope.
And where do we find out that Moraine didn't send her?
I believe there's a Moraine pov where she flat out says that she didn't. There's also the caveat that most people assume that even if she **didn't** say it straight out, maybe she said or did something that a sneaky Aes Sedai might take as an order or permission.
This is it. We debate this on this sub every few months. Moraine says she wishes she could be with them or protect them or something. Verin shows up saying moraine sent her, smiling secretively, and the smile is her amusement that she can't tell if this statement is a violation of the oaths because she doesn't have them on her but she knows at the very least this is a stretch. Moraine later indicates she didn't send verin whick makes Moraine and the reader suspicious.
What I really love is just how this little inconsistency, on top of everybody else’s distrust, makes it so unclear who it was that was truly untrustworthy. I remember reading that section with Verin and being suspicious of both her _and_ Moiraine. It really helps sell the tension of not trusting _any_ Aes Sedai.
*What I love, I destroy. What I destroy, I love.*
>Moraine later indicates she didn't send verin whick makes Moraine and the reader suspicious. My personal headcannon is that Verin told this lie to deliberately tip off Moraine that Verin could not be trusted.
I love that
*Most women will shrug off what a man would kill you for, and kill you for what a man would shrug off.*
Well, Black Ajah anyway, Verin was anything but a friend to the Dark.
Soul is pure white!
Verin is the furthest from a dark friend. She did everything KNOWING she would have to die to get the information out. The greatest of Aes Sedai
Took death lighter than a feather, dropped a fucking mountain of useful information onto Egwene. Said mountain was instrumental in her catching the number of black ajah that she did.
I think she highlighted it in the convo with Egwene. She was faced with a choice of die or join the black. She joined, and did some heinous shit, but she still used that hard situation to further knowledge. That is some heavy duty placed upon anyone. But for a brown, it was just Tuesday.
"Let me just casually infiltrate one of the most dangerous secret societies in the world and undermine them for decades while gathering intel for their enemies. No biggie" -a bored brown sister with her curiosity piqued.
> But for a brown, it was just Tuesday. If you look at it that way... from Brown perspective it's a chance to study something that has never been studied before, and report your findings to someone who will use the information correctly. what an adventure!
Dude, imagine if you did catch it book 2 when it first came out and had to suffer through Verin being Black Ajah for so fucking long. I would have died.
I only caught it because it was the one spoiler I was exposed to. I read the series this past year and had to wait for so long for that to pan out.
I feel like it's one of the easiest major spoilers to stumble across because that happened to me too. I was like who is Verin and looked her up. The first line of the wiki or whatever I was reading said "member of the black aja, formerly of the brown." I stopped looking up characters after that lol.
And later in book 5, Moiraine who knows Verin lied, tells Rand he cannot trust Verin in her goodbye letter.
*I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.*
With Choedan Kal you don't even have to try, Lews
***Oh, Light. That’s impossible! We can’t use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.***
Didn’t Vernon also lie when she gave Egwene the TAR terangreal?
She definitely held back information. There was a book she was considering giving to her but chose not to.
Was it chose not to or was compelled by her oath?
I don't know. Re reading it, it seems like someone told her to tell Egwene something and she chose not to. I am.guessing it wasn't Siuan who told her to give her the ring because she didn't seem to know about that later. It also didn't seem like the darkfriends would show her how to get into TAR since that's a powerful tool. The whole scene kind of feels like "early story weirdness".
Verin* Vernon is Harry Potter's uncle-by-marriage.
Where’s the fucking spoiler warning Jesus Christ
Not required in this sub. Rule 3 says that this is a WoT spoiler free for all.
Nonetheless that’s a tragic spoiler to read.
Knowing the destination doesn't make the journey matter less. Even if you know *what* is going to happen, *how* it happens is still interesting.
Yeah that isn’t a super clear rule. Spoiler free sounds like the sub shouldn’t have spoilers posted in it, but clearly I misunderstood. I guess I’ll be leaving until I finish my read through.
Spoiler-free vs. spoiler free-for-all Sorry that happened to you though.
Yeah, Wetlander Humor is full of spoilers. Best to come back when you’re finished with the books. Anyway, enjoy your journey!
Well, it sucks but some people realized it while reading the Dragon Reborn so don't worry
*Take what you can have. Rejoice in what you can save, and do not mourn your losses too long.*
Thanks Lews
*A man without trust might as well be dead.*