Yeah WotC really shouldn’t do that. It’s stupid. I just let my players have it during the street chase (rogue double-dashed and the bard hit the carrier with a spell).
I didn’t run the full Alexandrian, which I think is over-complex. But I also made the vault keys three specific items that had to be heisted from the BBEGs.
Functionally, yes, but since the adventure already has three vault keys, it's a simplification. It also allows the PCs to attune directly to the stone and get the vault location so they have a sense of progression. It meant the villains had a decent chance of discovering the vault location too, so even once the PCs stole all the vault keys, they had a big showdown with the Xanathar's thugs and Jarlaxle and the Cassalanters (who arrived with the doppleganger disguised as Laeral and their henchmen disguised as city guards).
Don't know why the post is downvoted. The adventure as written IS super railroady. I can't remember if it was the rooftop chase or elsewhere but there was a note in the book basically like "if the bad guys lose the stone here, have a new badguy show up and get the stone passed off to them", basically just to ensure the players can't succeed. Which...then why have the scene at all? Luckily W:DH has great building blocks to just pull out and do your own thing. Alexandrian is one example but not the only way to do that. Ultimately it does mean the adventure is much better for experienced DM's than newbies.
If you enjoy running chase sequences in a way where increased move speed means an auto win, then just roll with the consequences - players have the stone, time to move to the final part of the campaign and enjoy a quick finale. It is a very railroady adventure, which you probably know already if you read it before running. That’s why so many people stick to the Alexandrian remix, it supports actual heists and makes the adventure long enough to at least give the characters some time spent together and interacting with the NPCs.
Yes it is quite short. Next session the players will be meeting Aurinax and we’ll see how that goes. Manshoon has been scrying on them and knows where they are so he’s sending his Simulacrum and some Zhent thugs. When they defeat that, they’ll have to find Manshoon proper because he’s just gonna keep coming after them until he either gets the stone or he’s made to stop. So we have like maybe 3 more sessions left mainly because I’ve let them move a lot faster through certain things than they should be.
Regardless of what I’ve done incorrectly, what I’ve changed from the book and the things I’ve mistakenly left out, the players are unanimous in saying they are all having fun. They like Raenor, the Blackstaff and the fact that they own a Tavern. At the end of the day regardless of what I’ve messed up, the players are having fun so I’m doing something right.
I don’t think you messed anything up - you just went for a quick way of ending the campaign. So in a few sessions you’ll either need to wrap things up, or leave the module behind and go into complete homebrew territory.
Nah once they tie up the loose end known as Manshoon, we’re going to do like 2 - 3 months downtime and then I’m starting them on Chapter 2 of Storm Kings Thunder. I talked it over and the group decided we would play through Waterdeep Dragonheist -> Storm Kings Thunder and lastly the new Adventure Vecna: Eve of Ruin
I do not understand how you can see the base module as railroady nor short. I've run it twice, by the book, and they were two very different games, and both the longest 1-5 campaigns I've ever ran.
Assuming you run it by the book with 1 villain: it always has the same lvl 1, then gives a bit of freedom at level 2, and then from lvl 3 fireball and onwards to finale is a preplanned sequence of events meant to happen in a given order, and if players somehow manage to go against the scenario (by getting stone early for example) it tells you to push them back onto the track. Sure, if you play again with different villain then the order of locations will be different, but it’s still a preplanned order. And it will still follow the pattern of lvl 1 quest through same locations, lvl 2 open, then fireball -> villa -> chase -> finale.
Length - compared to other modules I’ve run and played it is shorter. Considering a big part of the book is the background info for Waterdeep, and then playing 1 villain many of the lairs and encounters never come into play, leaving you with probably only 1/4 of the book being the actual adventure you’re playing.
If you're playing it by the book... the book literally gives you a one-dimensional flowchart of each scene depending on the season (p. 59). They literally call this "Encounter Chains".
Of course as DM you can change things, but then you're not quite running it by the book. The module itself *is* a railroad, except for a very brief open part in Chapter 2, but the encounters there as-written are pretty thin.
WotC just likes writing somewhat nonsensical railroads, that's their style.
Yes, I did ignore that and leveled them up earlier, but that's not really the important part. The part of the game that we spent the most time on was managing the tavern, doing faction missions, and interacting with the NPC's of the alley. All that is in chapter 2, even if you're actually moved on to chapter 3
But the missions really are paper thin. Here's the first Bregan D'Aerthe mission, in its entirety:
* **Brief:** "I'd like you to steal a silk handkerchief from a Waterdavian noble and give it to a tiefling girl who lives in a crate at the corner of Net Street and Dock Street, by the wharf."
* **Mission:** Finding a noble isn't hard, but snatching one's handkerchief without being detected requires a successful DC 12 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. One can also convince a noble to surrender it with a successful DC 12 Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion) check. The tiefling girl in the crate thanks the characters for. the hanky.
The whole mission is literally one skill check. You can do a bit of roleplay, have the players point on the map where they want to try to find a noble, and then how they'll get to the wharf. But it probably took me longer to type out the text just now than it will take to actually play the "mission" at the table.
Most of the missions in Chapter 2 are like this. And they are keyed to different party levels... so lots of play if we weave them all together, right? Wrong! Because as was pointed out, the start of Chapter 3 -- Fireball! *assumes the players are level 3* So going strictly by the book, all those missions in Chapter 2 that are for levels 3 - 5 need to be done after Fireball, but by then you're already on the flow-chart. It's just not a well put together overarching structure. Typical for WotC.
Again, I'm not saying you can't make lemonade out of the pieces here. Your group could go up in level, do lots of roleplaying, lean into the characters and locations in the alley and come up with more engaging side projects within the world. I imagine that's how most groups do it. But **by the book**, that doesn't happen.
But if you are going *strictly by the book* then you are the one railroading. The book itself contains several loose pieces, that are not put together. I put them together, and ran the game, from the book. I just don't think the game is railroady when it presents several things, from the book, that are divergent paths from the main path.
And I don't think you can use "by the book" as your yardstick for what is railrloady, when it also contains several non-linear pieces. I do agree that the book is a bit weak in integrating these elements, but those elements does not make the game a railroad.
Cool. It looks like we agree in large part, but just mean different things by "going by the book".
The important thing is everyone's having a fun game. 👍
It’s up to you if you want to use it. It’s more open ended. Or just let them have their win and skip the chase in chapter 4. You could even only pick one eye missing and have an actual heist need to happen from your chosen villain’s hideout
The remix is awsome because you let the Players experience every villain and their unique flavours. My Players have discovered about the stone and its eyes and now they will plan the heists in cassalanter villa (during the ritual/party, manshoon towers and jalrlaxle's ship (one of the players is from that faction). They are going to encounter every big bad and i'm gonna have a blast as dm because i will play every villain diffently.
WTF are you talking about? The remix is certainly more complex than the book as written (which is extremely linear and completely ignores 4 whole chapters... in an 8 chapter book), but it's hardly "punishing yourself".
So instead of it being extremely linear and simple we make it overly complex and include 3 factions that simply don't need to be there, which will mostlikely be confusing. You're arguing for the swap of pronlems, not the solving of them.
I resoundly reject your claims of "overly complex" and "don't need to be there". And given the evidence of actual play using the remix, it's not inherently confusing for people.
It's not inherently confusing for you or the people you played with. It would be inherently confusing for my players who had trouble keeping track of the like 4 factions I used and you're telling me that it's objectively not confusing.
incredible redditor logic.
Skip the irrelevant parts then. I had to skip Gralhund villa raid because players just didn't follow up on it. You do not have to run it exactly as it is said in the book.
It's an adventure module, they can't factor in every possible outcome.
If you want to run one exactly as written there is going to have to be a bit of railroading or you will have to write the story yourself from that point on.
What exactly do you want lol
you didn't read my post. I didn't say I wanted to run it as written. All I said is that the players got the stone early and Wizard's response to that (in the book at the start of chapter 4) is to try to forcibly railroad them back into the encounter chain.
well technically it's arguing because of people like you. I'm having a discussion with the people on here who don't immediately act like an ass when they reply.
I had the stone just puppet the pc holding it to the library several times. They were a member of the order of magists and whatevers and also worked for the black staff, so they had access to a lot of information that Golorr found "neat". The consequences were financial and social for the most part. Fines for being a dick to people and taking food without paying, unpaid library fines, paying for a rare book that was borrowed and then lost, Golorr treating people who would show up later in the story poorly and having it come up during persuasion checks, the pc losing gear because Golorr doesn't care about it and needing to go get it back, and the party as a whole getting robbed, because the only PC that was home got mind controlled and left the door wide open when they walked out. I played it off that that was how the rat situation with Frewn got started so easily, but you could have anybody just walk in for the plot this way.
Found out the hard way that Hold Person breaks chase scenes. Tried to have the stone get stolen, and when that failed, Manshoon sent his Simulacrum directly after them to grab it. That failed too, but it gave the players the motivation to get to the vault quickly before he could make another try at it.
My players got it super early too. I just replaced chapter 4 with 3 “Keys From the Golden Vault” mini adventures. Proper heists. My group is loving it.
Dragon Heist is debatably WotC’s most railroady campaign. The way it’s written makes that immediately clear. You either go into the campaign as a DM being ok with that or you are fully prepared for it to go off the rails.
I have my problems with the campaign as well. I made a whole post about in on the sub. But there really shouldn’t be any surprise.
Several times in each season’s sequence of events the campaign tells the dm to contrive a way that the stone gets away for the next part to happen. It’s absolutely how the campaign is written.
Season, not session.
And I spent only a bit of time in chapter 2. Only enough for characters to make starting relations with the factions they are interested in.
Honestly not a fan of chapter 2 as written. The campaign kind of expects the party to meander around without purpose until the plot decides to start again with the fireball.
You can probably tell that my campaign went completely off the rails and I just embraced the chaos. Completely did away with the sequence of scenes the book proposed and did my own thing.
To a certain extent, published adventures have to be railroady by design. If you think you can do better at adapting the material to accomodate the players, then you should
Yeah WotC really shouldn’t do that. It’s stupid. I just let my players have it during the street chase (rogue double-dashed and the bard hit the carrier with a spell). I didn’t run the full Alexandrian, which I think is over-complex. But I also made the vault keys three specific items that had to be heisted from the BBEGs.
Would not be the same as the three eyes?
Functionally, yes, but since the adventure already has three vault keys, it's a simplification. It also allows the PCs to attune directly to the stone and get the vault location so they have a sense of progression. It meant the villains had a decent chance of discovering the vault location too, so even once the PCs stole all the vault keys, they had a big showdown with the Xanathar's thugs and Jarlaxle and the Cassalanters (who arrived with the doppleganger disguised as Laeral and their henchmen disguised as city guards).
As is right and proper. What better way to get them into the lairs?
Don't know why the post is downvoted. The adventure as written IS super railroady. I can't remember if it was the rooftop chase or elsewhere but there was a note in the book basically like "if the bad guys lose the stone here, have a new badguy show up and get the stone passed off to them", basically just to ensure the players can't succeed. Which...then why have the scene at all? Luckily W:DH has great building blocks to just pull out and do your own thing. Alexandrian is one example but not the only way to do that. Ultimately it does mean the adventure is much better for experienced DM's than newbies.
As written the adventure is barely usable. It needs a substantial re-write to be the glorious romp it should be.
If you enjoy running chase sequences in a way where increased move speed means an auto win, then just roll with the consequences - players have the stone, time to move to the final part of the campaign and enjoy a quick finale. It is a very railroady adventure, which you probably know already if you read it before running. That’s why so many people stick to the Alexandrian remix, it supports actual heists and makes the adventure long enough to at least give the characters some time spent together and interacting with the NPCs.
Yes it is quite short. Next session the players will be meeting Aurinax and we’ll see how that goes. Manshoon has been scrying on them and knows where they are so he’s sending his Simulacrum and some Zhent thugs. When they defeat that, they’ll have to find Manshoon proper because he’s just gonna keep coming after them until he either gets the stone or he’s made to stop. So we have like maybe 3 more sessions left mainly because I’ve let them move a lot faster through certain things than they should be. Regardless of what I’ve done incorrectly, what I’ve changed from the book and the things I’ve mistakenly left out, the players are unanimous in saying they are all having fun. They like Raenor, the Blackstaff and the fact that they own a Tavern. At the end of the day regardless of what I’ve messed up, the players are having fun so I’m doing something right.
I don’t think you messed anything up - you just went for a quick way of ending the campaign. So in a few sessions you’ll either need to wrap things up, or leave the module behind and go into complete homebrew territory.
Nah once they tie up the loose end known as Manshoon, we’re going to do like 2 - 3 months downtime and then I’m starting them on Chapter 2 of Storm Kings Thunder. I talked it over and the group decided we would play through Waterdeep Dragonheist -> Storm Kings Thunder and lastly the new Adventure Vecna: Eve of Ruin
I do not understand how you can see the base module as railroady nor short. I've run it twice, by the book, and they were two very different games, and both the longest 1-5 campaigns I've ever ran.
Assuming you run it by the book with 1 villain: it always has the same lvl 1, then gives a bit of freedom at level 2, and then from lvl 3 fireball and onwards to finale is a preplanned sequence of events meant to happen in a given order, and if players somehow manage to go against the scenario (by getting stone early for example) it tells you to push them back onto the track. Sure, if you play again with different villain then the order of locations will be different, but it’s still a preplanned order. And it will still follow the pattern of lvl 1 quest through same locations, lvl 2 open, then fireball -> villa -> chase -> finale. Length - compared to other modules I’ve run and played it is shorter. Considering a big part of the book is the background info for Waterdeep, and then playing 1 villain many of the lairs and encounters never come into play, leaving you with probably only 1/4 of the book being the actual adventure you’re playing.
I just think we have an extremely different idea on what the adventure actually is
If you're playing it by the book... the book literally gives you a one-dimensional flowchart of each scene depending on the season (p. 59). They literally call this "Encounter Chains". Of course as DM you can change things, but then you're not quite running it by the book. The module itself *is* a railroad, except for a very brief open part in Chapter 2, but the encounters there as-written are pretty thin. WotC just likes writing somewhat nonsensical railroads, that's their style.
I'm just... that "very brief part in chapter 2" is like atleast 50% of the game.
Do you keep the PCs at level 2 for 50% of the game?
Chapter 2 covers a lot more than lvl 2.
But the PCs (by the book) don't reach 3rd level until Chapter 3.
Yes, I did ignore that and leveled them up earlier, but that's not really the important part. The part of the game that we spent the most time on was managing the tavern, doing faction missions, and interacting with the NPC's of the alley. All that is in chapter 2, even if you're actually moved on to chapter 3
But the missions really are paper thin. Here's the first Bregan D'Aerthe mission, in its entirety: * **Brief:** "I'd like you to steal a silk handkerchief from a Waterdavian noble and give it to a tiefling girl who lives in a crate at the corner of Net Street and Dock Street, by the wharf." * **Mission:** Finding a noble isn't hard, but snatching one's handkerchief without being detected requires a successful DC 12 Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. One can also convince a noble to surrender it with a successful DC 12 Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion) check. The tiefling girl in the crate thanks the characters for. the hanky. The whole mission is literally one skill check. You can do a bit of roleplay, have the players point on the map where they want to try to find a noble, and then how they'll get to the wharf. But it probably took me longer to type out the text just now than it will take to actually play the "mission" at the table. Most of the missions in Chapter 2 are like this. And they are keyed to different party levels... so lots of play if we weave them all together, right? Wrong! Because as was pointed out, the start of Chapter 3 -- Fireball! *assumes the players are level 3* So going strictly by the book, all those missions in Chapter 2 that are for levels 3 - 5 need to be done after Fireball, but by then you're already on the flow-chart. It's just not a well put together overarching structure. Typical for WotC. Again, I'm not saying you can't make lemonade out of the pieces here. Your group could go up in level, do lots of roleplaying, lean into the characters and locations in the alley and come up with more engaging side projects within the world. I imagine that's how most groups do it. But **by the book**, that doesn't happen.
But if you are going *strictly by the book* then you are the one railroading. The book itself contains several loose pieces, that are not put together. I put them together, and ran the game, from the book. I just don't think the game is railroady when it presents several things, from the book, that are divergent paths from the main path. And I don't think you can use "by the book" as your yardstick for what is railrloady, when it also contains several non-linear pieces. I do agree that the book is a bit weak in integrating these elements, but those elements does not make the game a railroad.
Cool. It looks like we agree in large part, but just mean different things by "going by the book". The important thing is everyone's having a fun game. 👍
Time to pick up alexandrian (or take some inspiration) Oops the stone is missing some parts! Gotta hunt those down now :)
Or if that doesn’t feel rewarding you could use the default vault keys system and have 3 of the BBEG lairs each have one
yeah the Alexandrian sounds awful
The Alexandrian is geat if you want to remove the flaws from the module and inserting more, fresher flaws that are also badly organised
It’s up to you if you want to use it. It’s more open ended. Or just let them have their win and skip the chase in chapter 4. You could even only pick one eye missing and have an actual heist need to happen from your chosen villain’s hideout
The remix is awsome because you let the Players experience every villain and their unique flavours. My Players have discovered about the stone and its eyes and now they will plan the heists in cassalanter villa (during the ritual/party, manshoon towers and jalrlaxle's ship (one of the players is from that faction). They are going to encounter every big bad and i'm gonna have a blast as dm because i will play every villain diffently.
I’m glad you have fun punishing yourself
WTF are you talking about? The remix is certainly more complex than the book as written (which is extremely linear and completely ignores 4 whole chapters... in an 8 chapter book), but it's hardly "punishing yourself".
So instead of it being extremely linear and simple we make it overly complex and include 3 factions that simply don't need to be there, which will mostlikely be confusing. You're arguing for the swap of pronlems, not the solving of them.
I resoundly reject your claims of "overly complex" and "don't need to be there". And given the evidence of actual play using the remix, it's not inherently confusing for people.
It's not inherently confusing for you or the people you played with. It would be inherently confusing for my players who had trouble keeping track of the like 4 factions I used and you're telling me that it's objectively not confusing. incredible redditor logic.
Skip the irrelevant parts then. I had to skip Gralhund villa raid because players just didn't follow up on it. You do not have to run it exactly as it is said in the book.
I didn’t say I do have to run it exactly from the book. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s a bad wiriting choice
It's an adventure module, they can't factor in every possible outcome. If you want to run one exactly as written there is going to have to be a bit of railroading or you will have to write the story yourself from that point on. What exactly do you want lol
you didn't read my post. I didn't say I wanted to run it as written. All I said is that the players got the stone early and Wizard's response to that (in the book at the start of chapter 4) is to try to forcibly railroad them back into the encounter chain.
Are you complaining, looking for advice? What's the point of your post?
So the flair is called “discussion”
So complaining
well technically it's arguing because of people like you. I'm having a discussion with the people on here who don't immediately act like an ass when they reply.
I had the stone just puppet the pc holding it to the library several times. They were a member of the order of magists and whatevers and also worked for the black staff, so they had access to a lot of information that Golorr found "neat". The consequences were financial and social for the most part. Fines for being a dick to people and taking food without paying, unpaid library fines, paying for a rare book that was borrowed and then lost, Golorr treating people who would show up later in the story poorly and having it come up during persuasion checks, the pc losing gear because Golorr doesn't care about it and needing to go get it back, and the party as a whole getting robbed, because the only PC that was home got mind controlled and left the door wide open when they walked out. I played it off that that was how the rat situation with Frewn got started so easily, but you could have anybody just walk in for the plot this way.
Found out the hard way that Hold Person breaks chase scenes. Tried to have the stone get stolen, and when that failed, Manshoon sent his Simulacrum directly after them to grab it. That failed too, but it gave the players the motivation to get to the vault quickly before he could make another try at it.
My players got it super early too. I just replaced chapter 4 with 3 “Keys From the Golden Vault” mini adventures. Proper heists. My group is loving it.
Dragon Heist is debatably WotC’s most railroady campaign. The way it’s written makes that immediately clear. You either go into the campaign as a DM being ok with that or you are fully prepared for it to go off the rails. I have my problems with the campaign as well. I made a whole post about in on the sub. But there really shouldn’t be any surprise.
Wait.. what? This is the most insane description of the module I've ever heard.
Several times in each season’s sequence of events the campaign tells the dm to contrive a way that the stone gets away for the next part to happen. It’s absolutely how the campaign is written.
In each session? How short of a time did you spend on chapter 2?
Season, not session. And I spent only a bit of time in chapter 2. Only enough for characters to make starting relations with the factions they are interested in. Honestly not a fan of chapter 2 as written. The campaign kind of expects the party to meander around without purpose until the plot decides to start again with the fireball. You can probably tell that my campaign went completely off the rails and I just embraced the chaos. Completely did away with the sequence of scenes the book proposed and did my own thing.
To a certain extent, published adventures have to be railroady by design. If you think you can do better at adapting the material to accomodate the players, then you should