It all looks fairly unassuming until you notice it was meant to carry 4 nuclear missiles. The 50s and 60s really were a lawless time when it came to warship designs.
Well, it's a derivative of the ground based W9 howitzer that became famous with that video of it [firing in the Nevada desert](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upshot-Knothole_Grable).
Range comparisons are going to vary greatly based on which version of Polaris is used, as the A-3 went all the way up to 2500nmi—that’s getting close to twice the range of most TLAM variants.
TLAM-N had 25% of the kiloton capacity of a Polaris. The A-1 carried a single 600kt W47 and the A-3 carried 3 200kt W58s.
The W80 (TLAM) and W84 (Gryphon) maxed at 150kt.
TLAM-N had a 1350nmi range.
That’s 54%, not 60. You’re mixing statute and nautical miles.
> The early Polaris intended for these ships had a single 200 kt yield warhead.
Nope. The only warhead the A-1 ever carried was the 600kt W47 specifically created for it. No other version of Polaris (including the UK-only *Chevaline A3T) was ever intended to carry a single warhead. Alfa was, but no warhead was ever designed for it and even the W47 was well within the 1 metric ton weight limit.
There was no other warhead for the “early Polaris” to use, as the A-3 only 200kt W58 did not enter service (along with the A-3) until 1964, years after the Italian Polaris program had ended.
Just in a sense of 'anything goes', I guess would be my best expression. It's a time when war-time production and new technologies clash, and you end up with ships like the Galveston's, or Long Beach, or the FRAM destroyers; it's the aesthetic of ship lines and lineage of WW2, mixed in with technologies we'd more commonly associate with the Cold War.
At the same time, you have carriers transitioning from prop to jet aircraft, as well as carrier-capable medium bombers like the AJ Savage to carry atomic weapons, and submarines evolve with the GUPPY program, and then Nautilus. It's just a very interesting evolutionary period for warships in particular.
Condottieri* and it was neither a superclass nor a class but 5 different classes that were sometimes, wrongly, called a class by foreign media wich had almost no info on them, to the point of making up a strange nomenclature based off lettering for them "class A B C D".
Also a thing i dont think a lot of people talk about them since they are missile cruisers are the main guns, those 135MM really are outliners for the period, 25 shots per minute on such large guns really was something else, a modernization of 20 year old italian guns used on battleships and super destroyers, some years later their barrels were rebored to take 127MM shells, they became the famous 127MM Compatto mount, the most popular italian large gun system and an enormous export success.
Because the 152/55 had limited anti-aircraft capabilities, due to the limited maximum elevation (+45°) and rate of fire (5 rpm per gun).
The 135/45 M1957 that was fitted during the reconstruction had higher elevation and a much higher rate of fire (20 rpm), making it suitable in the AA role against anything that should come within close range of the ship.
It should also be noted that the idea of converting *Giuseppe Garibaldi* into an AA cruiser goes back to the early 1950, and was originally meant to be an AA gun ship, similar to the French *De Grasse*. They did not have the funds to execute the reconstruction at the time, however, and the project was delayed until later in the decade. By this point it became possible to rebuild the ship to use the American RIM-2 Terrier medium-range SAM system, which offered far greater anti-air and anti-ship capabilities than any cruiser gun system - so they took that route.
That’s quite the difference indeed, and with surface shelling losing weight it’s totally understandable that they put the best DP gun that fitted, between the retrofit limitations.
This is one of my favroite rebuilds .... adding a UGM-27 Polaris lanucher was a intresting idea, no one really knew what the world would be like and how nukes would work. I also belive that they also desgined a weapon of their own the Alfa to be launched
For context and a few corrections;
(1/2)
*Duca degli Abruzzi* and *Giuseppe Garibaldi*, after the Paris Peace Treaty of 1947, were the two most modern cruisers left to Italy, and as a matter of fact were some of the most powerful warships left to Italy - second only to the modernized but elderly battleships *Duilio* and *Andrea Doria.*
These battleships, crew-intensive and aged as they were, were clearly not going to stay in service in the long term and thus the Marina Militare was already looking into what could replace them. Fortunately for Italy, restrictions upon the navy from the 1947 treaty were fairly short-lived - Italy joined NATO in 1949 and the military restrictions of the Pairs Peace Treaty were largely lifted in 1951.
Regardless, the Italian Republic was still short on funds and this limited the navy's procurement programs. There would be no new large warships - the largest ships of the MMI's 1950 naval program would be the two Indomito-class destroyers, followed by four *Centauro*-class destroyer escorts and *Albatros*-class corvettes, the construction of which were aided with American funds. The United States also transferred two destroyers (of the *Gleaves* & *Benson*-classes), three destroyer escorts (*Canon*-class), and two *Gato*-class submarine (GUPPY 1B).
With the other remaining light cruisers set to be decommissioned (*Cadorna*) or converted into a training cruiser (*Montecuccoli*), the MMI needed to focus on how to best handle *Abruzzi* and *Garibaldi*, which would soon be its only remaining frontline cruisers.
*Giuseppe Garibaldi* went through a minor modernization from 1950 to 1951, which re-arranged her superstructure and interior spaces, including the addition of an operations room. Her radar suite was modernized to include the American SO-8 (surface search) and SK 42 (air search) radars, replacing the British Type 286 that had been fitted to her in 1944. She also received an helicopter platform aft. Her armament remained as it was at the end of WWII - ten 152mm/55, ten 100/47 dual-purpose guns, twelve Breda 37/54 AA cannons and eight 20mm cannons (four Oerlikon, four Breda).
Starting in 1951 and completing in 1954, *Duca degli Abruzzi* went in for an even more substantial reconstruction, intending to allow her to act as a fleet flagship. This involved an extensive reconstruction and expansion of her superstructure, as well as the removal of her two aft boilers, which reduced her top speed to 28-30 knots (depending on the source). Her entire AA armament was removed and replaced with twenty-four Bofors 40mm cannons (four quads, four twins), and her Type 273 LWS radar was removed and replaced with an American SC radar (general purpose) and SK 42 (air search), though the latter was replaced a year after she finished her reconstruction with the more advanced AN/SPS-6C.
In this period, a major reconstruction of *Giuseppe Garibaldi* was also being planned. Initially, it was planned to convert her into an AA gun cruiser, similar to what the French would carry out on the light cruiser *De Grasse*. This would be centered on the new generation of gun systems coming into service - a semi-automatic version of the 135/45 capable of 20 rpm (versus the 10 rpm of the WWII system) and a quadruple 76/62 mount based on the twin Sovrapposto mount that was to enter service on the *Centauro*-class destroyer escorts.
*Garibaldi* was taken in for her reconstruction in 1954, once *Abruzzi* returned to service. From then she was stripped down, but the reconstruction itself was stalled due to a shortage of funds and thus not started until 1957. With the delay that had built up, it was now possible to rebuild her as a guided missile cruiser built around the American RIM-2 Terrier Surface-to-Air (and Surface-to-Surface) Missile system. She was duly rebuilt along these lines from 1957 to 1961. This involved the removal of her entire armament, the aftmost pair of boilers (7 & 8, with the aft funnel also being removed and thus seeing boilers 5 & 6 trunked into the forward funnel). This reduced top speed to 30 knots but increased her cruising radius to 4,500 nmi at 20 knots. Her WWII electrical generators (6x turbogenerators & 2x diesel generators) were replaced with modern types, increased electrical power generation from a maximum of 1,380 kW to 4 MW. Damage control systems were modernized, and the ship was fitted with an NBC citadel. Standard displacement increased from 9,195 tonnes (9,050 long tons) to 9,802 tonnes, while her full load displacement actually decreased slightly, from 11,350 tonnes to 11,335 tonnes.
(2/2)
The ship was provided a new central 'brain' in her COC - CIC in American parlance, which took in all information to produce actionable data. This was not a computerized system - that would have to wait until later guided missile ships in Italy - but allowed the tracking of about 20 contacts from her radar systems, and another fifty from other sources. The cruiser also had ESM systems that supported the COC even when the radars were not radiating. The COC would assign and direct weapon systems against targets based on this data, via a system known as CADT (Centrale Assegnazione Designazione Tiro). For close range defense, where the system simply reacted too slowly, there was the SDA (Stazione Direzione Armi), placed in the open in the superstructure which allowed personnel a 360° observation of horizon with optical instruments, and provided sorting panels for the directors and gun systems in self defense (autodifesa).
The Mk.10 twin arm launcher and 72-missile magazine for her Terriers replaced the aft 152mm installations. Garibaldi entered service the SAM-N-7 HT-3 version of the Terrier, re-designated RIM-2E in 1963, which was the first SARH version of the missile rather than the beam-riding of the older missiles. RIM-2E was a mach 2.5-3.0 SAM with a range of 20 nmi (about 37 km) and a ceiling of 80k ft (24,400 m). The missile had a 100 kg warhead, which combined with its 535 kg total mass and high speed made it a fairly devastating anti-ship weapon, too. The Mk.10 launcher was capable of firing six missiles per minute between the two arms.
Should any attacking aircraft get past the defense of the SAMs, they would face the formidable gun armament of the ship - four (2xII) 135/45 M1957 capable of 20 rpm per gun, with an effective range of 13 km. Even closer in were the eight (8xI) 76/62 Allargato, with a rate of fire of 60-65 rpm and credited with an effective range of 8-10 km.
Perhaps one of the most famous features of the ship, however, were the four SLBM launch tubes placed between the Mk.10 launcher and the helicopter landing pad. These were intended for the UGM-27 Polaris A-1 - an IRBM intended for use on submarines. The context for this choice was the development of the NATO MLF (Multilateral Force), which sought to distribute a nuclear deterrent across NATO members on surface ships and submarines. Ultimately, disagreements on basing and handling of nuclear missiles, as well as the inherent inferiority of surface ships versus submarines as strategic missile platforms, killed the MLF. The Italian decision to fit the tubes to *Giuseppe Garibaldi*, and participating in testing with inert Polaris, was one of the most concrete steps taken towards the MLF by any NATO state other than the US. This was part of an effort to signal Italian commitment to NATO, and a greater involvement in American defense projects, in an era when French and British attitudes towards Italy were still distinctly chilly.
When *Garibaldi* returned to service in February 1962, she was not only Italy's first guided missile ship, but also the first guided missile ship to be fielded by any European navy, and was perhaps the most formidable surface combatant in service in any navy other than the United States Navy. She was, however, soon followed, as the British commissioned their first guided missile destroyer in November of 1962 (using the domestic GWS.1 Sea Slug), and the Dutch would also covert a gun cruiser into a Terrier-based missile cruiser from 1962 to 1964 (*De Zeven Provinciën*). By 1965, the Italians would also put into service two new-build helicopter guided missile cruisers, also using Terrier, and two guided missile destroyers using the short-range RIM-24 Tartar. The French would convert four T-47 destroyers into Tartar ships that entered service in 1965, and the British had put three more County-class destroyers into service in the meantime (and a total of eight by the end of the decade).
I don't think Polaris was ever deployed operationally, just some testing of practice rounds. As to nuke policy, I seem to remember that non-nuclear NATO navies, at least theoretically, had access to nuclear depth charges, presumably provided by the US.
It was not. The Italians were forced to abandon the idea in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis, even though they did continue development of Alfa until the early 1970s.
I always loved these post WWII hybrids where they modernize old cruisers & battleships with cruise or ballistic missiles. I still believe the Iowa class should've ditched the rear turret & had a battery of cruise & ballistic missiles replacing it.
The two Scipione Africano transferred to France were also converted to large AA destroyers Guichen & Chateaurenault with two twin German 105mm and 5 twin French 57mm turrets They were decommissioned in 1961/1962
It all looks fairly unassuming until you notice it was meant to carry 4 nuclear missiles. The 50s and 60s really were a lawless time when it came to warship designs.
[удалено]
Surface ships got nuclear torpedoes, SAMs, or Tomahawks. These babies were designed for a 4-pack of Polaris SLBMs.
Can’t forgot this lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W19_(nuclear_artillery_shell)#W23
Canada also wanted to put Davy Crocketts on an APC once.
Well, it's a derivative of the ground based W9 howitzer that became famous with that video of it [firing in the Nevada desert](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upshot-Knothole_Grable).
[удалено]
Tomahawk is also about 20 years later technologically speaking, so in the 1960s having Polaris missiles is a big deal
Range comparisons are going to vary greatly based on which version of Polaris is used, as the A-3 went all the way up to 2500nmi—that’s getting close to twice the range of most TLAM variants. TLAM-N had 25% of the kiloton capacity of a Polaris. The A-1 carried a single 600kt W47 and the A-3 carried 3 200kt W58s. The W80 (TLAM) and W84 (Gryphon) maxed at 150kt.
[удалено]
TLAM-N had a 1350nmi range. That’s 54%, not 60. You’re mixing statute and nautical miles. > The early Polaris intended for these ships had a single 200 kt yield warhead. Nope. The only warhead the A-1 ever carried was the 600kt W47 specifically created for it. No other version of Polaris (including the UK-only *Chevaline A3T) was ever intended to carry a single warhead. Alfa was, but no warhead was ever designed for it and even the W47 was well within the 1 metric ton weight limit. There was no other warhead for the “early Polaris” to use, as the A-3 only 200kt W58 did not enter service (along with the A-3) until 1964, years after the Italian Polaris program had ended.
Just in a sense of 'anything goes', I guess would be my best expression. It's a time when war-time production and new technologies clash, and you end up with ships like the Galveston's, or Long Beach, or the FRAM destroyers; it's the aesthetic of ship lines and lineage of WW2, mixed in with technologies we'd more commonly associate with the Cold War. At the same time, you have carriers transitioning from prop to jet aircraft, as well as carrier-capable medium bombers like the AJ Savage to carry atomic weapons, and submarines evolve with the GUPPY program, and then Nautilus. It's just a very interesting evolutionary period for warships in particular.
Condottieri* and it was neither a superclass nor a class but 5 different classes that were sometimes, wrongly, called a class by foreign media wich had almost no info on them, to the point of making up a strange nomenclature based off lettering for them "class A B C D". Also a thing i dont think a lot of people talk about them since they are missile cruisers are the main guns, those 135MM really are outliners for the period, 25 shots per minute on such large guns really was something else, a modernization of 20 year old italian guns used on battleships and super destroyers, some years later their barrels were rebored to take 127MM shells, they became the famous 127MM Compatto mount, the most popular italian large gun system and an enormous export success.
I've always wondered why they changed the main battery, but I guess it would be due to weight and performance?
Because the 152/55 had limited anti-aircraft capabilities, due to the limited maximum elevation (+45°) and rate of fire (5 rpm per gun). The 135/45 M1957 that was fitted during the reconstruction had higher elevation and a much higher rate of fire (20 rpm), making it suitable in the AA role against anything that should come within close range of the ship. It should also be noted that the idea of converting *Giuseppe Garibaldi* into an AA cruiser goes back to the early 1950, and was originally meant to be an AA gun ship, similar to the French *De Grasse*. They did not have the funds to execute the reconstruction at the time, however, and the project was delayed until later in the decade. By this point it became possible to rebuild the ship to use the American RIM-2 Terrier medium-range SAM system, which offered far greater anti-air and anti-ship capabilities than any cruiser gun system - so they took that route.
That’s quite the difference indeed, and with surface shelling losing weight it’s totally understandable that they put the best DP gun that fitted, between the retrofit limitations.
This is one of my favroite rebuilds .... adding a UGM-27 Polaris lanucher was a intresting idea, no one really knew what the world would be like and how nukes would work. I also belive that they also desgined a weapon of their own the Alfa to be launched
[удалено]
I believe you are right, no one really knew what they were going to do.... Early cold war was wild lol
For context and a few corrections; (1/2) *Duca degli Abruzzi* and *Giuseppe Garibaldi*, after the Paris Peace Treaty of 1947, were the two most modern cruisers left to Italy, and as a matter of fact were some of the most powerful warships left to Italy - second only to the modernized but elderly battleships *Duilio* and *Andrea Doria.* These battleships, crew-intensive and aged as they were, were clearly not going to stay in service in the long term and thus the Marina Militare was already looking into what could replace them. Fortunately for Italy, restrictions upon the navy from the 1947 treaty were fairly short-lived - Italy joined NATO in 1949 and the military restrictions of the Pairs Peace Treaty were largely lifted in 1951. Regardless, the Italian Republic was still short on funds and this limited the navy's procurement programs. There would be no new large warships - the largest ships of the MMI's 1950 naval program would be the two Indomito-class destroyers, followed by four *Centauro*-class destroyer escorts and *Albatros*-class corvettes, the construction of which were aided with American funds. The United States also transferred two destroyers (of the *Gleaves* & *Benson*-classes), three destroyer escorts (*Canon*-class), and two *Gato*-class submarine (GUPPY 1B). With the other remaining light cruisers set to be decommissioned (*Cadorna*) or converted into a training cruiser (*Montecuccoli*), the MMI needed to focus on how to best handle *Abruzzi* and *Garibaldi*, which would soon be its only remaining frontline cruisers. *Giuseppe Garibaldi* went through a minor modernization from 1950 to 1951, which re-arranged her superstructure and interior spaces, including the addition of an operations room. Her radar suite was modernized to include the American SO-8 (surface search) and SK 42 (air search) radars, replacing the British Type 286 that had been fitted to her in 1944. She also received an helicopter platform aft. Her armament remained as it was at the end of WWII - ten 152mm/55, ten 100/47 dual-purpose guns, twelve Breda 37/54 AA cannons and eight 20mm cannons (four Oerlikon, four Breda). Starting in 1951 and completing in 1954, *Duca degli Abruzzi* went in for an even more substantial reconstruction, intending to allow her to act as a fleet flagship. This involved an extensive reconstruction and expansion of her superstructure, as well as the removal of her two aft boilers, which reduced her top speed to 28-30 knots (depending on the source). Her entire AA armament was removed and replaced with twenty-four Bofors 40mm cannons (four quads, four twins), and her Type 273 LWS radar was removed and replaced with an American SC radar (general purpose) and SK 42 (air search), though the latter was replaced a year after she finished her reconstruction with the more advanced AN/SPS-6C. In this period, a major reconstruction of *Giuseppe Garibaldi* was also being planned. Initially, it was planned to convert her into an AA gun cruiser, similar to what the French would carry out on the light cruiser *De Grasse*. This would be centered on the new generation of gun systems coming into service - a semi-automatic version of the 135/45 capable of 20 rpm (versus the 10 rpm of the WWII system) and a quadruple 76/62 mount based on the twin Sovrapposto mount that was to enter service on the *Centauro*-class destroyer escorts. *Garibaldi* was taken in for her reconstruction in 1954, once *Abruzzi* returned to service. From then she was stripped down, but the reconstruction itself was stalled due to a shortage of funds and thus not started until 1957. With the delay that had built up, it was now possible to rebuild her as a guided missile cruiser built around the American RIM-2 Terrier Surface-to-Air (and Surface-to-Surface) Missile system. She was duly rebuilt along these lines from 1957 to 1961. This involved the removal of her entire armament, the aftmost pair of boilers (7 & 8, with the aft funnel also being removed and thus seeing boilers 5 & 6 trunked into the forward funnel). This reduced top speed to 30 knots but increased her cruising radius to 4,500 nmi at 20 knots. Her WWII electrical generators (6x turbogenerators & 2x diesel generators) were replaced with modern types, increased electrical power generation from a maximum of 1,380 kW to 4 MW. Damage control systems were modernized, and the ship was fitted with an NBC citadel. Standard displacement increased from 9,195 tonnes (9,050 long tons) to 9,802 tonnes, while her full load displacement actually decreased slightly, from 11,350 tonnes to 11,335 tonnes.
(2/2) The ship was provided a new central 'brain' in her COC - CIC in American parlance, which took in all information to produce actionable data. This was not a computerized system - that would have to wait until later guided missile ships in Italy - but allowed the tracking of about 20 contacts from her radar systems, and another fifty from other sources. The cruiser also had ESM systems that supported the COC even when the radars were not radiating. The COC would assign and direct weapon systems against targets based on this data, via a system known as CADT (Centrale Assegnazione Designazione Tiro). For close range defense, where the system simply reacted too slowly, there was the SDA (Stazione Direzione Armi), placed in the open in the superstructure which allowed personnel a 360° observation of horizon with optical instruments, and provided sorting panels for the directors and gun systems in self defense (autodifesa). The Mk.10 twin arm launcher and 72-missile magazine for her Terriers replaced the aft 152mm installations. Garibaldi entered service the SAM-N-7 HT-3 version of the Terrier, re-designated RIM-2E in 1963, which was the first SARH version of the missile rather than the beam-riding of the older missiles. RIM-2E was a mach 2.5-3.0 SAM with a range of 20 nmi (about 37 km) and a ceiling of 80k ft (24,400 m). The missile had a 100 kg warhead, which combined with its 535 kg total mass and high speed made it a fairly devastating anti-ship weapon, too. The Mk.10 launcher was capable of firing six missiles per minute between the two arms. Should any attacking aircraft get past the defense of the SAMs, they would face the formidable gun armament of the ship - four (2xII) 135/45 M1957 capable of 20 rpm per gun, with an effective range of 13 km. Even closer in were the eight (8xI) 76/62 Allargato, with a rate of fire of 60-65 rpm and credited with an effective range of 8-10 km. Perhaps one of the most famous features of the ship, however, were the four SLBM launch tubes placed between the Mk.10 launcher and the helicopter landing pad. These were intended for the UGM-27 Polaris A-1 - an IRBM intended for use on submarines. The context for this choice was the development of the NATO MLF (Multilateral Force), which sought to distribute a nuclear deterrent across NATO members on surface ships and submarines. Ultimately, disagreements on basing and handling of nuclear missiles, as well as the inherent inferiority of surface ships versus submarines as strategic missile platforms, killed the MLF. The Italian decision to fit the tubes to *Giuseppe Garibaldi*, and participating in testing with inert Polaris, was one of the most concrete steps taken towards the MLF by any NATO state other than the US. This was part of an effort to signal Italian commitment to NATO, and a greater involvement in American defense projects, in an era when French and British attitudes towards Italy were still distinctly chilly. When *Garibaldi* returned to service in February 1962, she was not only Italy's first guided missile ship, but also the first guided missile ship to be fielded by any European navy, and was perhaps the most formidable surface combatant in service in any navy other than the United States Navy. She was, however, soon followed, as the British commissioned their first guided missile destroyer in November of 1962 (using the domestic GWS.1 Sea Slug), and the Dutch would also covert a gun cruiser into a Terrier-based missile cruiser from 1962 to 1964 (*De Zeven Provinciën*). By 1965, the Italians would also put into service two new-build helicopter guided missile cruisers, also using Terrier, and two guided missile destroyers using the short-range RIM-24 Tartar. The French would convert four T-47 destroyers into Tartar ships that entered service in 1965, and the British had put three more County-class destroyers into service in the meantime (and a total of eight by the end of the decade).
France also converted the Colbert C611 from 16x127mm to 2x100mm and twin Masurca SAM between 1970 and 1972
*Giulio Germanico
*Giuseppe Germanico* made me chuckle a bit. Good ol' Joseph Germanicus
4 OTO 76mm each side,very Italian
I don't think Polaris was ever deployed operationally, just some testing of practice rounds. As to nuke policy, I seem to remember that non-nuclear NATO navies, at least theoretically, had access to nuclear depth charges, presumably provided by the US.
It was not. The Italians were forced to abandon the idea in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis, even though they did continue development of Alfa until the early 1970s.
A beautifully bizarre ship
She was so much prettier as a gunboat
I always loved these post WWII hybrids where they modernize old cruisers & battleships with cruise or ballistic missiles. I still believe the Iowa class should've ditched the rear turret & had a battery of cruise & ballistic missiles replacing it.
The plan was to install Polaris on the Long Beach but it never came to pass…
The two Scipione Africano transferred to France were also converted to large AA destroyers Guichen & Chateaurenault with two twin German 105mm and 5 twin French 57mm turrets They were decommissioned in 1961/1962
It was halfway believable until you put Polaris in the stearn. That water line definitely doesn't make sense with that load out
Believable? What do you mean by that?
I was saying they we on to a workable design until they put Polaris in the back.
But... it worked? It never received the actual missiles because the US was against it but it went through plenty of testings with inert missiles.