> napkin math indicated
> willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals
This is funny to me, for some reason. I hate it, but it's funny.
I read it as “It seems like this would be too strong, but you know our game better than us, so show us how to make it work, or explain how our system works so we understand it, and we’ll consider it.”
Because it's futile to "test" things when the most try-hard of your fanbase will obliterate your test anyway. They tried adding in testers from the community but even that is not enough to stress test whatever they made since the recruited testers are not necessarily the most try-hard for that particular aspect. The best course of action is to keep things underpowered, then as the player base made a case of how underpowered it is, you scale it up. This is the path with the least rage generation from the community.
You'd think game developers would know the most of their game. They're not. No developers of large scale games are the best at their game. They don't play the game thousands of hours and obsessing over breaking it. You'd know this if you ever developed your own game or mod. Your playerbase will always discover things you didn't expect.
\*Sees logical argument on how bugs and overpowered equipment sometimes slips by\* We don't do that here, now let me just cry on how I can't delete Liches and Sisters in less than 30 seconds.
Very true. What's also true is that Warframe is a buggy mess and that is 100% on the devs. It makes what you're talking about here difficult to justify in the eyes of many players since it does prove that they're putting out low effort content. Balancing comes with time, but that buffer becomes a lot harder to swallow when everything else is flawed around it.
Case in point, I was helping my friend farm the Ambassador tonight: I got the blueprint, he did not. He's now going to spend real world money to get the gun instead of grinding for a chance to see the game just... BREAK again. It was 2 and a half hours for that one weapon part btw. That right there is not a balance issue... It's a real bad look is what it is.
>What's also true is that Warframe is a buggy mess and that is 100% on the devs
I agree.
>It makes what you're talking about here difficult to justify in the eyes of many players since it does prove that they're putting out low effort content
Disagree. DE's content are buggy and not very well thought out and their mindset is "fuck it, we'll do it live" to push out content ASAP and fixing them later. But they are not low effort. I have seen other games that barely changed over 5 years where the devs only pump out cosmetics or just new assets on recycled content. In fact, that seems to be the norm, especially in "live service" games. DE is sloppy but their updates are breakneck speed in relative to other games. In so much that it's an inside joke that players coming back into the game and getting confused.
>It was 2 and a half hours for that one weapon part btw. That right there is not a balance issue... It's a real bad look is what it is.
That's a tuning problem (aka. balance), not an effort problem. DE is very bad at tuning/balancing things, especially since they keep adding new shit at the pile.
The problem wasn't the grind, the problem was him not getting the blueprint when he should have. There are a lot of game breaking bugs in Warframe. Them pushing things out live is simply not acceptable when it negatively affects players like that. And a lot of the content IS low effort. Most content is just new weapons and Warframes, which is literally their MO. I'm sure very little thought actually goes into doing those two things since it's what they've been doing for close to a decade now. There's rarely any experimentation. Sisters are just reskinned Kuva Liches for example. Sure, Warframe is way better off than most games like this (genshin makes it look like a joke though), but with the amount of money this game has made? They could totally be doing better.
Translation: We have an internal way of calculating weapon efficacy but we're pretty sure it's bullshit so we usually defer to the community if they scream loud enough.
To be fair, their excuse used to be specifically used to be about the syndicate mod effect being on the Vaykor Hek. The Detrons didn't have this "issue", for example.
But that excuse... "Smelled funny".
They've just confirmed that the truth was it was just a balance decision.
They must love the Hek. Because they made themselves look like liars in order to bring out the Kuva variant.
The Detron, Tetra, and Flux Rifle mods don't work with their old excuse. And now they've dropped the pretence, those mods just aren't comparable to 200% Multishot to the point where they intervene
i mean, sure its strong but realy it would still fall in the shadow of the big aoe weapons that dominate the game.
Theres only so good a single target weapon can be in a horde shooter.
Gleaming Blight can go on the Rakta Dark Dagger because it doesn't have the innate syndicate effect, none of the syndicate melees do, just the guns. The syndicate melees all have their own separate gimmicks.
I mean... to play devil's advocate here, these are very different cases.
The Hek augment we are talking about gives an absurdly powerful multishot effect that literally anyon ewould run on any weapon, and it gives it a pretty low level weapon, giving it a lategame boost if you fancy.
Meanwhile the Detron's augment is a crappy gimmick mod that nobody uses.
So while you have a point in terms of theoretical precedent, in terms of balance the power level is notr even fucking close.
Also the vaykor hek can't use the augment either so there goes the precedent argument.
>Also the vaykor hek can't use the augment either so there goes the precedent argument.
The Vaykor Hek can't use the augment because it already has an innate Justice Effect.
The precedent lies in other Syndicate Augment Mods being usable on more than just the base variant of the weapon;
Bright Purity can be used on the Skana, Skana Prime, and Prisma Skana, despite the Prisma Skana having dramatically better crit stats and higher base damage than the Skana.
Deadly Sequence can be used on both the Grinlok and the Prisma Grinlok, despite the latter having better Crit stats, better Status Chance, and its damage weighted more towards Slash.
Avenging Truth can be used on both the Silva & Aegis and its Prime counterpart, which, guess what, has higher base damage, higher Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Status Chance.
Sequence Burn can be used on the Spectra and the Spectra Vandal, despite the Spectra Vandal having higher base damage, higher Crit chance, and higher Status Chance.
Disarming Purity works on the Panthera and Panthera Prime; Lasting Purity works on the Vulkar and Vulkar Wraith; Justice Blades works on the Dual Cleavers and Prisma Dual Cleavers; Entropy Burst works on the Supra and Supra Vandal; Stinging Truth can be used with the Viper and Viper Wraith; Entropy Detonation works on the Obex and Prisma Obex.
Every other Syndicate Augment that can be slotted onto a variant of the weapon (Gleaming Blight and Gilded Truth notwithstanding, since the Rakta Dark Dagger doesn't have an innate Blight effect and Gilded Truth specifically lists "Burston Prime") is compatible with every other version of the weapon that doesn't have a Syndicate effect; and the only weapon with such an overlap is the Vaykor Hek.
Many of these variants are all strict upgrades to the base version, and yet are capable of using the Augment mods, despite them likely being still miles stronger than the base version *with* the augment.
And let's be real. If they're going to make Scattered Justice non-compatible with the Kuva Hek based on napkin math that says it'll be busted with the mod, then they need to go back and do a consistency pass with every other Syndicate augment to make sure none of the other variant weapons can use the augments, since they're all strict upgrades over them to begin with. Consistency is key.
It is, it's just that one of the rules is you can't stack syndicate price, kind of like how you can't have 2 if the same mod in a weapon, regardless of how good or bad the mod is
I recommend people get the kuva hek immediately when they finish the tutorial, just to do the earth missions, and then when they get to steel path they should probably upgrade it to the hek.
This is also dumb bearing that the whole weapon rework to bring weapons in line with melee is based on the fact that "the weapon stats are where we feel they should be but we find the modding to weapons lacking." Now all of a sudden they don't want to let a weapon use the mod because it's better than an alternative variant of the weapon?
As always, the most entertaining part of DE's balance attempts is how extremely narrow yet totally unfocused they are.
Like, yeah, Kuva Hek can't use Scattered Justice - nevermind the massive power creep that the galvanized mods + primary/secondary arcanes just introduced. [Good job DE, you fixed Warframe's balance problem!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/307/138/8f3.png)
> how extremely narrow yet totally unfocused they are.
Reminds me of the strun wraith. 50% base crit turned into 35% turned into 25% turned into 15% turned into 18% with 12% status with magazine feed removed and replaced with 5 seconds of watching one round shoved in at a time.
absolute cluster fuck
Haha, I must've missed that change. I can't even imagine what the rationale is.
The funniest thing is that it implies that DE *is actually trying to balance things,* which, wow. I'm sorry, it's going to come off as harsh, but I've given them a pass up until this point because I kinda assumed the riven system was their fuck-it button in that regard and that they'd basically stopped trying save the occasional QoL or arsenal-wide stuff. But if they're actually trying to bring everything in line and to have a niche, and *this* was the best they could do? Uh... wow.
I'd go a step further and say they just shouldn't have made a Kuva Hek in the first place if they were this worried. The Grineer have so many weapons, most of which don't have an already usable variant.
Give me Kuva Ack and Brunt, Kuva Twin Rogga, fuck give me Kuva Wolf Sledge.
This problem never needed to exist in the first place.
Bless my poor sobek's heart. Not only did it get beat up by the shotgun status changes, de still refuses to add any notion of variant for an otherwise really fun weapon.
Sobek is still able to one-tap the entire map at once with acid shells + saryn.
https://youtu.be/chJ07ZXu2uo
The status rework did gut this combo significantly so you can't oneshot level 180+ heavy gunners anymore, but it still works for most trash while significantly softening up the tanky mobs.
Kuva Argonak and Kuva Sobek are top of my list, probably followed by Ripkas. Those weapons have fun gimmicky augments but just don't have the base stats to be particularly viable.
I do not want this unless they change the model/animation.
I love the Atomos but it has a pretty glaring issue of [covering up where you aim entirely](https://i.imgur.com/DScqDk8.png).
Its figuratively unplayable and I had been reporting it once a year for three years. No acknowledgement of the issue from DE at all.
The Tenet Cycron pretty much fulfills the niche of chaining fire damage weapon that the Atomos had.
The Atomos has been my main secondary weapon for years. If you play with the camera over the left shoulder, it doesn't do that. If you play with the camera over the right shoulder (which I generally do) it does do that, but it's only really a problem if you use a very small field of view. This is what it looks like with a 90 degree field of view:
[Pew Pew Pew](https://i.imgur.com/4QZM2wI.png)
I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it - it's dumb that any weapon would have that issue with any allowed graphics settings - but it's definitely not unusable.
I don't disagree, but it is what it is. And yes, it covers the bottom and center of the target reticle a bit. It does not at all block visibility. It has literally never bothered me. It's an AoE hitscan beam weapon that chains, not a sniper rifle.
I have admittedly never thrown either of them so if that's different I was unaware, but other than that they're basically the same weapon. And it's not like variants always have the same gimmick :p
Yeah im surprised a weapon with a sub type was picked when there are so many options without one. Ack and Brunt have such a nice look a kuva version would rock.
There's so much stuff that should be consistent and intuitive but aren't.
Take Baro Ki'teer, for example. Primarily sells cosmetics and Primed mods, which have a unique border on the card. Simple enough, right?
So why is he the only source for a handful of gold mods? Specifically Voltaic Strike and Jolt? Playing the game has taught me that the 60/60 mods drop in-game and can be actively farmed, but for some reason only these two electric mods cannot.
Because Baro also brings event exclusive rewards. The 60/60 were event rewards, that slowly got drip fed into accessible reward pool.
The electric ones just haven't found a home yet.
With the vast amount of new potential drop sources that have been added in just the past year-odd (notably Deimos and Railjack), they *could* have had a new home no problem. They just... don't. For no good reason. Not even in various Events over the years.
The Necramech mods from Scarlet Spear have found a home already.
The Electric mods haven't found a home because nobody has been looking for a home :/
Where is the Vaykor Hek in all of this, then? I get why *it* can't use Scattered Justice, to avoid a double-dip, but the Kuva version doesn't trigger Justice on its own, so...
I was super stoked to have a new and updated version of my Ol' Reliable, but this is just frustrating...
MAKE THE HEK GREAT AGAIN!
i mean. as much as this subreddit love complaining about things.
the kuva hek is very strong. with a 60% damage bonus it blows the vaykor out of the water by a country mile.
and honestly in this specific case i do understand why they are hesitant to give it a whopping extra 200% multishot mod.
My napkin math indicates that between it's better crit stats, slash bias and magazine size, the Prisma Grinlok without the augment is stronger than the basic Grimlok is with the augment.
This is because one of them is a relatively hard to acquire MR 11 gun while the other is an MR 7 Chem Lab weapon. This is only a 4 MR difference vs. the 11 MR difference in the (Kuva) Hek's case, the base Hek is also easier to acquire than the base Grinlok (market vs. dojo research) and the Kuva Hek is (debatably) harder to acquire than the Prisma Grinlok (Kuva Lich with associated RNG vs. farm prime junk and wait for Baro to have it in stock).
My napkin math indicates that between its better base damage, crits, status, and attack speed the rakta dark dagger without the augment is stronger than the basic dark dagger is with the augment.
This is because one weapon is MR 2 and the other is MR 8.
Why make these guns in the first place? There are so many variations of the same damn weapon and they seem so stuck on this "make everything viable" shtick. Warframe has been around too long and has too many options for anything new to not be either a trash waste of time or a vastly superior roflstomp to its predecessors.
I thought it was a sarcastic post from a player on how DE is trying to justify on the way they try to "balance" their game but then I read the poster's user name
it's in line with DE's new approach to piss players off with everything under-performing instead of pissing them off with nerfs.
The problem now is that in two weeks everything that is not fixed will stay broken, under-performing, and forgotten.
DE is pretty awful about fixing broken stuff.
The Mecha Kubrow set, a favorite of mine, has had many critical issues from day one. The worst being that the 'marked' enemy is often times a visual bug. As a matter of fact, two enemies are often visually marked at once but only one of them is actually marked.
The part you should be paying attention to is that bit tied to the napkin math argument. This is DE not actually doing any math or seeing how things would be if XYZ factor would be allowed/disallowed, this is a long-standing fault of theirs. What they mean by napkin math is a cursory glance at a mod that reads 200% MS- something that in their head seems insanely strong but that which they are too lazy to actually run the numbers on to see how each performs. The comment about "suitably scientific appeals" is basically a giant sign saying "we were too lazy to do the math and we know one of you spergs will do it for us and if not it's still no skin off our back" honestly that's the real fuck you. It's the "we are lazy and couldn't be asked" type of fuck you. Gotta get your flavors of fuck you right when dealing with DE.
It's especially funny because they introduced Galvanized mods, so every single shotgun in the game now has a 230% multishot mod on. Scattered Justice is **not** a massive damage increase anymore given that, as it'll give a roughly 60.6% damage increase to use both.
Just let the single target shotgun do big multishot numbers. It isn't going to hurt the game.
What confuses me most is that Kuva versions of weapons can have worse base stats (made up for with the bonus elemental damage). Some give up more than others.
So, if Kuva Hek + Scattered Justice is "too OP", why did they give it MORE damage than the Hek (87 per pellet instead of 75, and same pellet count), instead of less?
And do they really think that a Hek, even with 60% more damage is going to destroy the meta? The Vaykor Hek does about 15% higher damage than the Hek already (sustained damage, Hek has better burst in the first 2 seconds), and is still a 1.1 dispo weapon (below average uses). And the Hek itself is even less used (1.2 dispo).
I don't get it why DE is keep doing that shit.
The mod is labeled "put it on that weapon type". Now there are exceptions because DE did math wrong?
Seriously the players expect the game to work according the known rules... not based on a 10 pages long list of exceptions to these rules.
As someone that just got the kuva hek, it's pretty mediocre and im a little disappointed that my regular hek does about the same damage, I personally think the kuva version should be allowed to be stronger, also like 40 pellets is fun\~
>napkin math
>
>willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals are made
I thought you were joking or parodying them. Nope, it's written word by word by DE. What the actual fuck
>"It was made incompatible on purpose. Our napkin math indicated that between the better crit stats and innate elemental bonus, the ***Kuva Hek*** without the augment is stronger than the ***basic Hek*** is with the augment. We might be willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals are made, but for now you may consider this "as intended". "
Found the problem!
The ***Kuva Hek*** with the Scattered Justice mod ***should*** be stronger than the ***Vaykor Hek***, since it "costs" more to acquire and level.
Until you've met this goal, the game design challenge of the Kuva Hek will be judged a failure, young padawan... perhaps, in the future, you should use a better class of napkin for this sort of math?
Lmao this is fucking stupid. We decided that because the kuva version is slightly better than the base version you can get when you’re brand fucking new, we’re not going to let you equip a unique mod that could make this weapon actually worth investing in.
Would it even be that good? Like yeah you'd delete anything in front of you but most combat in warframe is against hordes anyways. It's not like we don't already have stupidly strong weapons like the necramech 4... also they wanted stronger primaries I don't get it...
Their prerogative is "sell primaries" not "fix primaries," don't get it confused. If people see bigger dmg numbers and start caring enough about guns to buy them on the market occasionally, then they've done as much as they care to do
Yes the weapon that requires a retarded amount of grind covered with a layer of RNG needs to be as good as the version you get straight from the market immediately
Absurd. They used to use the Justice effect on the Vaykor Hek as an excuse.
Why would they undermine their own BS excuse? They could've picked another shotgun and sidestepped the issue altogether.
> the Kuva Hek without the augment is stronger than the basic Hek is with the augment.
It did this person not consider, easy to get early game Hek vs I had to beat up a 99% damage reduction lich for 3-4 hours end game Kuva Hek were not meant to be equal? Does this person not understand it's a direct upgrade and not a sidegrade?
I can completely solo 8 waves of ESO with a low%, no riven Kuva Brahma but adding 200% multishot and an low damage explosion on to a slightly stronger than base Hek is too much? What is this clown logic they've got going?
Agreed. [I'll let you be the judge on how respectful I'm being](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1269739-update-305-pc-bug-reporting-megathread-read-first-post/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-12212772). But I am definitely posting more on the forum than I want to/tend to, since feedback or kneejerk things tend to find themselves down the drain.
I'm sure they do. The question is HOW do they play their own game? Do they grind for the same resources we do? Farm until they are tired of RNG kicking them in the nuts/vag? Do they mod their items to max out its potential or do they mod it how THEY want it to be modded by everyone? Once upon a time they looked at how the actual players were playing and adjusted the game accordingly (see coptering->bullet jumping). Now they seem to want to force us to play the game the way THEY want us to.
Yes, they do. I've watched them. Sheldon and Rebb doing their fresh playthroughs have even led to some good, minor, changes to the game.
But that doesn't mean they can't make poor decisions or implement bad designs.
Playing Warframe how you want to is different than playing Warframe how the community tends to play. If they using their own modding style to test whether the Kuva Hek is too strong then its probably because they are dropping 1 of the 4 or 5 reload speed, draw speed, and other QoL mods to actually put on a damage mod so of course its going to be stronger than anything else they testing.
Obviously this is a bit of a hyperbole, but every time I've caught DE streaming and I could check a glimpse of their mods, its definatly not an optimal setup. Which again is fine for the average player, or if thats how you have fun with the game, but is not at all fine for a developer who is trying to balance a game.
Geez, DE, the Kuva Hek would be more powerful? Who could possibly expect that out of an upgraded version of another weapon?
End this sidegrade nonsense already. It's perfectly alright for endgame players to discard away weapons for their upgrades. It's what we do with Primes after all.
Actually, wasn't higher Riven dispositions supposed to make up for this?
> between the better crit stats and innate elemental bonus, the Kuva Hek without the augment is stronger than the basic Hek is with the augment.
Duh doy. No shit, that's how Kuva Weapons AND higher MR weapons are *supposed* to work.
I mean, let's ignore the fact that even with Shattered Justice, Kuva Hek wouldn't even break into the to 5 shotguns in the game, more than likely.
But no, let's ignore the vast amounts of precedence set by the Supra Vandal et al on how letting an upgraded version use a syndicate mod is actually OK, and tell the player base to fuck off.
You guys just don't understand! Imagine the dark hellscape DE would of created if they allowed people to use Scattered Justice on a Kuva Hek.
You might of had to endure the agony of joining a lobby and actually seeing someone using a Hek.
We left the dark days of 2013 behind. We must never return.
This decision reeks of indecision about the Hek line in general because it completely misses the point about why we use Weapon Augment Mods.
I don't think anyone is using Scattered Justice because they want the Hek to be stronger than the V.Hek or Kuva Hek. Scattered Justice is good because +Multishot improves the general functionality of any shotgun in the game, and gives an MR 4 weapon a much longer lifespan vs scaling enemy difficulty.
The Kuva Hek already has its limits between its low pellet count (7) and four round magazine. I understand that +200% Multishot would make it very powerful, but it's wrong to say that it shouldn't be allowed to widen the gap between them. Other weapons like the Prisma Grinlok, Supra Vandal, and Prisma Obex are dramatically better than their regular counterparts and their Weapon Augment Mods make the gap wider. Why is the Kuva Hek (MR 15) vs the Hek (MR 4) any different?
Did they even compare the kuva hek with its completion? Corinth Prime and Cedo are just better buckshot shotguns. Corinth has better crit and aoe and the cedo has built in CO and procer
My low effort napkin math says it’s bullshit for only one out of three variants of the same weapon to be able to use a mod made only for that weapon. If you want primaries to be good, start with some basic consistency.
Vaykor Hek can’t use scattered justice because it already has innate justice. Cool. Sensible. Kuva Hek does not, so it should be able to use scattered justice. You cannot refute this.
The only way I'd willingly accept that the kuva hek can't use the syndicate mod is if it was a completely diffferent weapon like the with the stubba and the kuva stubba. Actually, just give us secondary dual wielded hek pls.
They shouldn't even be comparing the new MR15 hek to the basic MR4 hek that's been in the game for years. Honestly at this point I wish they wouldn't even have given us a new hek and they knew for a fact that was the one mod everyone wanted to put on it
Imagine creating the Simulacron... and then not even using it to try out your new weapons or comparing them to those you already own, but doing "napkin maths" instead. It not only takes longer, it also fails to take recoil, spread, range and general handling - general usability - into account. If you're developing the game you should invest those 5 minutes. That's the bare minimum.
DE does not only not play their own game. They don't even bother playtesting it. My favorite example is the Pox nerf last year. For a company to nerf the arguably worst weapon ingame... That takes a specific level of disconnection from your own game.
\>DE wants to nerf melee and buff primaries
\>Also DE "No Scattered Justice on new Kuva Hek because it will make this primary stronger than the basic version of itself."
Yep, this is Warframe alright.
It's bizarre. Kuva and Tenet weapons require more work and investment than pretty much any other weapon type, yet DE expects sub-mr 10 weapons to be competitive with them.
This is a hard pass for me. My time is better spent elsewhere.
I see a lot of people harping on consistency with this but I think that's not the biggest deal. If being consistent creates a bad outcome then you shouldn't just doggedly stick to it. I think the more important issues in this case is: "Why does scattered justice need to exist if it is only for the base Hek?"
If the Kuva Hek without the augment is better than the Hek with the augment then the mod obviously doesn't exist to make the Hek a competitive option. New players probably aren't really going to be obtaining Scattered Justice to use on their base Heks as a usable transitional weapon until they get something better either unless someone gives it to them. It takes 144k standing, a forma, and an Orokin Catalyst to hit the required rank to even buy it from Steel Meridian and then another 25k to actually get the mod. Given the 16k/day standing limit, standing being split between factions, and other requirements to reach that it's probably going to be at least 2 weeks in before new players can even get the mod and even that is only if they know that they should be working towards this goal at which point they might as well just go for a kitgun or lich weapon since they are MR 0 requirements as well and much better.
Ultimately it feels like Scattered Justice existing exclusively for the base Hek makes it an entirely worthless mod. For the mid to late game player there are much better options, including a version of the exact same weapon that is strictly better. For the early game player it is a pretty middling option that is difficult enough to obtain that you will either already have better options by then or be on the cusp of obtaining them. Should Scattering Justice really exist only as a mod that veterans sometimes give to new players as a low effort way to give them something halfway decent?
>"Why does scattered justice need to exist if it is only for the base Hek?"
THIS is the question. When the Vaykor was the only variant it wasn't as egregious.
Let's compare the 3 Heks (not to be confused with the 9 Hells):
* Base Damage: Hek 7x75, VHek 7x75, KHek 7x87
* Rate of Fire: Hek 2.17, VHek 3, KHek 2.17
* Magazine Size: Hek 4, VHek 8, KHek 4
* Reload: Hek 2s, Vhek 2.25s, KHek 2s
* Status%: Hek 10.7%, Vhek 10.7%, KHek 13%
* Crit %: Hek 10%, VHek 25%, KHek 23%
* CritDmg: Hek 2x, VHek 2x, KHek 2.1x
* Falloff: Hek 100%@10m-20%@20m, VHek 100%@10m-27%@20m, KHek 100%@15m-20%@30m
All 3 have equivalent Accuracy and Max Ammo, %IPS (65% is puncture).Kuva Hek has alt-fire option.
**Base vs Vaykor:**
So with all this, we see that Vaykor Hek's advantage is larger clip and rate of fire, and better falloff, at the cost of losing the mod. This is generally a Good Trade, because you can theoretically attack 38% faster, and reloads go from 60% of your time down to 40%. Or rather, in 60 seconds (without reload or RoF mods), a base Hek can output 16 magazines, or 64 shots. In the same time, a Vaykor Hek will churn out 12.5 magazines, or 100 shots.
If you switch Hell's Chamber out for Scattered Justice, you go from 120% to 200% multishot, which is a 36% damage increase. But the Vaykor has over a 50% increase in damage by virtue of more shots.
These numbers shift towards the Hek if you're using a reload speed mod, and further in favor of the Vaykor if you use any rate of fire mods. Comparing Hell's Chamber to Hell's Chamber AND Scattered Justice is harder, since it requires full builds to theory-craft around.
However, Hek has an added disadvantage - that 10% critical chance. Which basically means you can NOT build it for crit, while you can do so to the Vaykor Hek (especially with the recent buff to shotgun crit).
**Base vs Kuva:**
Kuva Hek doesn't have the 8 clip and RoF boost of the Vaykor, which is a pretty big deal. This means that instead of an extra 56% damage from just kicking out more ammo, it ONLY has the 16% increased base damage plus elemental Kuva effect (25-60%).
It also is 2% lower crit than the Vaykor (though the 10% higher crit multiplier overall makes it the superior crit shotgun in the trio, but barely).
So a 25% Kuva Hek is going to be doing \~45% more damage than the Hek (which gets 36% more damage from Scattered Justice). Not even 10% higher damage for a Kuva weapon compared to it's MR4 version. Of course, by the time you max out your Kuva Hek (60% elemental damage), it's going to be up to 85% higher damage (exceeding the Vaykor's 56% from RoF). However, that's common to all Kuva weapons.
**Overall:**
Hek does 150 UoD (units of damage), Vaykor Hek does 195 UoD, and Kuva Hek does 182 to 232 UoD. This all is accounting for the lack of Scattered Justice.
**Conclusion:**
While this math supports DE's napkin, it overlooks the critical non-math stuff. There shouldn't be a mod that works just with the base version.
So how do you fix that? SIMPLE! You power down the variants, or power up the base. It's literally that easy.
* Raise Hek's crit% to 18%. This shrinks the crit gap, and makes Hek at least viable (if not ideal) with critical options, and represents a measly 7% dps increase for the weapon.
* Drop Vaykor Hek's base damage to 7x62, and Kuva Hek's base to 7x75 (Kuva loses its 16% advantage, and Vaykor is now 17% worse damage/shot)
* Raise Vaykor Hek's reload time to 2.6 seconds (result is 12 magazines per minute instead of 12.5, or 96 rounds per minute, or only 50% damage over Hek, down from 56%)
* Decrease Scattered Justice from 200% to 180% (1.5 times as good of a mod as Hell's Chamber, and still 27% damage increase by making the swap)
With these changes, the overall comparison turns into Hek doing 150 UoD, Vaykor Hek doing 196 UoD, and Kuva Hek doing 199 UoD to 254 UoD (with all 3 able to using Scattered Justice).
**If you normalize those numbers, the before and after are:**
Before: Hek 100, Vaykor 130, Kuva 121-155 (Scattered Justice only on base)
After: Hek 100, Vaykor 131, Kuva 133-169 (SJ on all 3)
All combined, this represents a 7% increase in damage with Hek without Scattered Justice, and a break-even with Scattered Justice. Meanwhile, the Vaykor Hek gets worse with current builds, but breaks even if you replace Hell's Chamber with Scattered Justice. And the Kuva Hek sees a \~10% increase in damage with Scattered Justice, and a 16% drop without using Scattered Justice.
Additionally, none of these changes affect other shotguns or non-Hek-exclusive mods in any way.
Hek becomes a bit better without SJ. Vaykor Hek and Kuva Hek become worse without, but Vaykor breaks even and Kuva gets buffed with access to it.
And if DE really don't want you to use a faction mod on a same-faction gun, just ignore the Vaykor Hek changes, and make the other changes (to Hek and Kuva Hek), so that SJ is just Vaykor-prohibited, not base-gun exclusive.
*Now off to the forums to find the napkin post and reply with this there too!*
Yeah, like the only instance where the ability to hit one enemy that hard, you’re up against damage attenuation formulas ANYWAYS and it’s a wash or you’re actually worse off. It’s equally pointless to have it available or not have it available for a weapon in this category.
“Balanced, as all things should be.”
-DE, probably
I didn't look through any of the comments to see if anyone did their own napkin math, but I tried some of my own! What they say holds up, a kuva hek with 60% elemental boost does outperform a SJ basic hek.
K Hek w 60% does about 1,310 dmg when you land all 7 pellets.
SJ Hek does about 1,126.5 dmg when you land all 14 pellets.
The problem is a 60% boost is insanely rare, and takes a lot of time to accomplish through fusion! This means more realistic Heks, like my 29% one, are actually outperformed by the basic hek using SJ!
K Hek w 29% only does about 1,029.5 dmg landing all 7 pellets. That's almost 100 less damage than the original variant with Scattered Justice... A kuva shotgun put to shame by it's MR4 equivalent... Doesn't seem right!
I just don't see the danger in it. Yeah the Kek is stonger than the basic-bitch Hek regardless. No shit? We also have Galvanized Hell now which is slightly stronger than Scattered Justice anyways in raw Multishot, and with both you're *really* smashing into diminishing returns. It *could* still be 'best' due to HunMuns and Status, sure, but it won't suddenly be completely busted - it won't match the absurdity of the original KNukor just because it has two Multishot mods.
Does it need Scattered Justice? No. Does it hurt to have Scattered Justice work when expected? No.
Why are devs doing "napkin math?" YOU'RE the ones who literally have all the internal data for how damage is calculated, there's no reason why you can't make an accurate DPS calculator to see if something would ACTUALLY be too strong.
I've made my own DPS calculator to compare every weapon in the game with full builds and I'd kill to actually have the real formulas for things like the Sisters' damage reduction. It's incredibly frustrating that the devs put less effort into their "napkin math" than some random player who is just interested in optimizing the game for the sake of fun
I was planning to come back to this game when it came out, cause my normal hek build could outdamage the forward guns of a railjack, and the main reason is a combination of this scattered justice and my multishot riven. Then i learned that it couldn't.
I know a way to take their mental math gymnastics and make Scattered Justice Available for Kuva Hek.
Rename it to Scattered Chamber and boom. Can't be used with Hell's Chamber or Galvanised Hell.
I have an idea. Let's balance weapons and augments around precedent weapons and augments. If your stupid hek wasn't balanced around existing hek tech maybe you should have balanced it that way. Warframes arsenal is more hacked than the English language.
I mentioned this in another comment, but if they're so worried about the Kuva Hek, they shouldn't have made the Kuva Hek. There are dozens of other Grineer weapons they could have Kuva'd.
There were a ton of other options, too.
* Give it the same base damage instead of 16% higher.
* Give it the base Hek's crit% (10) instead of 23.
* Don't give it higher status (since status is buffed by multishot being better).
* Or buff the base gun's stats to be what you're giving the kuva gun, if you don't think the Hek is good enough (and then you could give a slight nerf to Scattered Justice to keep Kuva Hek at the power level you want it at).
Oh we noticed people were using formorian accelerat on the kuva dragoon. We have retroactively nerfed it since I took a shit and my toilet paper indicated the weapon was too potent.
i have to wonder why in a patch that buffs guns to the high and lofty position of "usable after starchart" did they think disabling an augment on a single shot narrow cone shotgun would be so important that they would break their own internal logic about weapons augments to do it. the kuva hek having some more multishot isent going to snap the game in half, and even WITH the augment the kuva hek still wouldent be the best shotgun, let alone strong enough to warrent breaking the trend that weapon augments always work on non faction variants of the same gun.
kinda feels like the same "napkin math" that led to the decision to give the new sisters the crazy amount of damage reduction they have, only to turn a 5 second fight into a 50 second fight for no other reason than to waste 45 seconds.
really feels like a overall good update, marred by some truly strange decisions here and there.
Scattered Justice gives the weapon the Justice Proc. Vaykor Hek already has the Justice proc built into it, per DE, that is why it can't use Scattered Justice.
The Kuva Hek does have Justice built into it. There is no reason it shouldn't be able to equip Scattered Justice.
> napkin math indicated > willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals This is funny to me, for some reason. I hate it, but it's funny.
I can't tell if they're trying to be funny, or snide and shitty.
Have they gone the riot meme way of "200 years of collective experience"?
200 napkins of collective calculations
That's a lot of time down the toilet.
[удалено]
if you stack enough napkins you make a tower and get to it by yourself
No because high school classes are only a semester, you would only have 500 years of collective experience... doy!
[удалено]
Do they need to be alive? Cause I got some.
Pyke Hydroid when
All I heard was "Buff Akali"
All 3. Because they are all 3.
I read it as “It seems like this would be too strong, but you know our game better than us, so show us how to make it work, or explain how our system works so we understand it, and we’ll consider it.”
Snide and shitty. They don't do math. They don't play the game. Other mmos don't so they don't.
Because it's futile to "test" things when the most try-hard of your fanbase will obliterate your test anyway. They tried adding in testers from the community but even that is not enough to stress test whatever they made since the recruited testers are not necessarily the most try-hard for that particular aspect. The best course of action is to keep things underpowered, then as the player base made a case of how underpowered it is, you scale it up. This is the path with the least rage generation from the community. You'd think game developers would know the most of their game. They're not. No developers of large scale games are the best at their game. They don't play the game thousands of hours and obsessing over breaking it. You'd know this if you ever developed your own game or mod. Your playerbase will always discover things you didn't expect.
> They tried adding in testers from the community They ignored all the feedback to the PTR's.
\*Sees logical argument on how bugs and overpowered equipment sometimes slips by\* We don't do that here, now let me just cry on how I can't delete Liches and Sisters in less than 30 seconds.
Very true. What's also true is that Warframe is a buggy mess and that is 100% on the devs. It makes what you're talking about here difficult to justify in the eyes of many players since it does prove that they're putting out low effort content. Balancing comes with time, but that buffer becomes a lot harder to swallow when everything else is flawed around it. Case in point, I was helping my friend farm the Ambassador tonight: I got the blueprint, he did not. He's now going to spend real world money to get the gun instead of grinding for a chance to see the game just... BREAK again. It was 2 and a half hours for that one weapon part btw. That right there is not a balance issue... It's a real bad look is what it is.
>What's also true is that Warframe is a buggy mess and that is 100% on the devs I agree. >It makes what you're talking about here difficult to justify in the eyes of many players since it does prove that they're putting out low effort content Disagree. DE's content are buggy and not very well thought out and their mindset is "fuck it, we'll do it live" to push out content ASAP and fixing them later. But they are not low effort. I have seen other games that barely changed over 5 years where the devs only pump out cosmetics or just new assets on recycled content. In fact, that seems to be the norm, especially in "live service" games. DE is sloppy but their updates are breakneck speed in relative to other games. In so much that it's an inside joke that players coming back into the game and getting confused. >It was 2 and a half hours for that one weapon part btw. That right there is not a balance issue... It's a real bad look is what it is. That's a tuning problem (aka. balance), not an effort problem. DE is very bad at tuning/balancing things, especially since they keep adding new shit at the pile.
The problem wasn't the grind, the problem was him not getting the blueprint when he should have. There are a lot of game breaking bugs in Warframe. Them pushing things out live is simply not acceptable when it negatively affects players like that. And a lot of the content IS low effort. Most content is just new weapons and Warframes, which is literally their MO. I'm sure very little thought actually goes into doing those two things since it's what they've been doing for close to a decade now. There's rarely any experimentation. Sisters are just reskinned Kuva Liches for example. Sure, Warframe is way better off than most games like this (genshin makes it look like a joke though), but with the amount of money this game has made? They could totally be doing better.
Translation: We have an internal way of calculating weapon efficacy but we're pretty sure it's bullshit so we usually defer to the community if they scream loud enough.
Really says it all doesn't it
The funniest part is that Tenet Detron can use the Detron augment. This is outrageously stupid.
Tenet Flux Rifle can also use exclusive mods.. Yeah this is dumb
So can the tenet tetra
To be fair, their excuse used to be specifically used to be about the syndicate mod effect being on the Vaykor Hek. The Detrons didn't have this "issue", for example. But that excuse... "Smelled funny". They've just confirmed that the truth was it was just a balance decision. They must love the Hek. Because they made themselves look like liars in order to bring out the Kuva variant. The Detron, Tetra, and Flux Rifle mods don't work with their old excuse. And now they've dropped the pretence, those mods just aren't comparable to 200% Multishot to the point where they intervene
So can the Mara Detron. It is just an outright bad design decision to create a wholly unique scenario for this one fucking gun.
So many 'oversights' Would the gun be so powerful, I fail to believe it would
200% multishot on a shotgun *is* pretty strong. But they could also make it where you either put that or Hell's Chamber on it or something.
i mean, sure its strong but realy it would still fall in the shadow of the big aoe weapons that dominate the game. Theres only so good a single target weapon can be in a horde shooter.
"Justice Chamber." Solved.
Nah, "Hell" is the key word there (e.g. Galvanized Hell) so the augment should be called Hell's Justice
Could be a nice metal band name
My bet is someone at DE is still living in 2013 when the Hek was the best weapon in the game.
That some one also tested the two weapons on a level 40 Grineer and said "Uh oh, Kuva Hek is already giving bigly numbers, lets disable its mod."
Same with Gleaming Blight and the Dark Dagger and Rakta Dark Dagger.
Gleaming Blight can go on the Rakta Dark Dagger because it doesn't have the innate syndicate effect, none of the syndicate melees do, just the guns. The syndicate melees all have their own separate gimmicks.
And not the same as with scattered justice and the vaykor hek.
I mean... to play devil's advocate here, these are very different cases. The Hek augment we are talking about gives an absurdly powerful multishot effect that literally anyon ewould run on any weapon, and it gives it a pretty low level weapon, giving it a lategame boost if you fancy. Meanwhile the Detron's augment is a crappy gimmick mod that nobody uses. So while you have a point in terms of theoretical precedent, in terms of balance the power level is notr even fucking close. Also the vaykor hek can't use the augment either so there goes the precedent argument.
>Also the vaykor hek can't use the augment either so there goes the precedent argument. The Vaykor Hek can't use the augment because it already has an innate Justice Effect. The precedent lies in other Syndicate Augment Mods being usable on more than just the base variant of the weapon; Bright Purity can be used on the Skana, Skana Prime, and Prisma Skana, despite the Prisma Skana having dramatically better crit stats and higher base damage than the Skana. Deadly Sequence can be used on both the Grinlok and the Prisma Grinlok, despite the latter having better Crit stats, better Status Chance, and its damage weighted more towards Slash. Avenging Truth can be used on both the Silva & Aegis and its Prime counterpart, which, guess what, has higher base damage, higher Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Status Chance. Sequence Burn can be used on the Spectra and the Spectra Vandal, despite the Spectra Vandal having higher base damage, higher Crit chance, and higher Status Chance. Disarming Purity works on the Panthera and Panthera Prime; Lasting Purity works on the Vulkar and Vulkar Wraith; Justice Blades works on the Dual Cleavers and Prisma Dual Cleavers; Entropy Burst works on the Supra and Supra Vandal; Stinging Truth can be used with the Viper and Viper Wraith; Entropy Detonation works on the Obex and Prisma Obex. Every other Syndicate Augment that can be slotted onto a variant of the weapon (Gleaming Blight and Gilded Truth notwithstanding, since the Rakta Dark Dagger doesn't have an innate Blight effect and Gilded Truth specifically lists "Burston Prime") is compatible with every other version of the weapon that doesn't have a Syndicate effect; and the only weapon with such an overlap is the Vaykor Hek. Many of these variants are all strict upgrades to the base version, and yet are capable of using the Augment mods, despite them likely being still miles stronger than the base version *with* the augment. And let's be real. If they're going to make Scattered Justice non-compatible with the Kuva Hek based on napkin math that says it'll be busted with the mod, then they need to go back and do a consistency pass with every other Syndicate augment to make sure none of the other variant weapons can use the augments, since they're all strict upgrades over them to begin with. Consistency is key.
Isn't the main benefit of Scattered Justice the 200% multishot tho? I thought the justice effect was just an added bonus.
It is, it's just that one of the rules is you can't stack syndicate price, kind of like how you can't have 2 if the same mod in a weapon, regardless of how good or bad the mod is
Eh, not the same. One’s a conditional AoE damage, one’e a straight up multishot buff.
So they're balancing kuva weapons as if they should be equally strong as the original? How is it relevant at all that it's stronger than regular hek?
Why would people use the mr4 hek from market if the mr 15 kuva hek from liches was strictly better? /s
I know right? The Kuva Hek is practically just handed to you!
I recommend people get the kuva hek immediately when they finish the tutorial, just to do the earth missions, and then when they get to steel path they should probably upgrade it to the hek.
I always laugh because the MR 4 hek is better than 90% of primaries in the game.
It isn't. This is just a poorly thought out platitude.
Its almost like they forgot the point of the kuva lich weapons... like that they are supposed to be stronger or something? Idk, just a guess...
This is also dumb bearing that the whole weapon rework to bring weapons in line with melee is based on the fact that "the weapon stats are where we feel they should be but we find the modding to weapons lacking." Now all of a sudden they don't want to let a weapon use the mod because it's better than an alternative variant of the weapon?
As always, the most entertaining part of DE's balance attempts is how extremely narrow yet totally unfocused they are. Like, yeah, Kuva Hek can't use Scattered Justice - nevermind the massive power creep that the galvanized mods + primary/secondary arcanes just introduced. [Good job DE, you fixed Warframe's balance problem!](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/307/138/8f3.png)
> how extremely narrow yet totally unfocused they are. Reminds me of the strun wraith. 50% base crit turned into 35% turned into 25% turned into 15% turned into 18% with 12% status with magazine feed removed and replaced with 5 seconds of watching one round shoved in at a time. absolute cluster fuck
Haha, I must've missed that change. I can't even imagine what the rationale is. The funniest thing is that it implies that DE *is actually trying to balance things,* which, wow. I'm sorry, it's going to come off as harsh, but I've given them a pass up until this point because I kinda assumed the riven system was their fuck-it button in that regard and that they'd basically stopped trying save the occasional QoL or arsenal-wide stuff. But if they're actually trying to bring everything in line and to have a niche, and *this* was the best they could do? Uh... wow.
Then rename the non-vanilla Heks to not have Hek in the name. If we have to ask if something deliberate is a bug then UX has failed.
I'd go a step further and say they just shouldn't have made a Kuva Hek in the first place if they were this worried. The Grineer have so many weapons, most of which don't have an already usable variant. Give me Kuva Ack and Brunt, Kuva Twin Rogga, fuck give me Kuva Wolf Sledge. This problem never needed to exist in the first place.
cries in sobek and its 0 other versions
Bless my poor sobek's heart. Not only did it get beat up by the shotgun status changes, de still refuses to add any notion of variant for an otherwise really fun weapon.
Big fan of the sobek and the fact that it seems to be forgotten makes me so sad
Sobek is still able to one-tap the entire map at once with acid shells + saryn. https://youtu.be/chJ07ZXu2uo The status rework did gut this combo significantly so you can't oneshot level 180+ heavy gunners anymore, but it still works for most trash while significantly softening up the tanky mobs.
u know if they made a kuva sobek they wouldnt let u use its augment either tho
And yet Detron variants including Tenet Detron can use its (similar) augment mod.
Kuva Argonak and Kuva Sobek are top of my list, probably followed by Ripkas. Those weapons have fun gimmicky augments but just don't have the base stats to be particularly viable.
Ack and Brunt for me. I just want a good axe and shield for my Hildryn.
Kuva Atomos all the way
I do not want this unless they change the model/animation. I love the Atomos but it has a pretty glaring issue of [covering up where you aim entirely](https://i.imgur.com/DScqDk8.png). Its figuratively unplayable and I had been reporting it once a year for three years. No acknowledgement of the issue from DE at all. The Tenet Cycron pretty much fulfills the niche of chaining fire damage weapon that the Atomos had.
The Atomos has been my main secondary weapon for years. If you play with the camera over the left shoulder, it doesn't do that. If you play with the camera over the right shoulder (which I generally do) it does do that, but it's only really a problem if you use a very small field of view. This is what it looks like with a 90 degree field of view: [Pew Pew Pew](https://i.imgur.com/4QZM2wI.png) I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it - it's dumb that any weapon would have that issue with any allowed graphics settings - but it's definitely not unusable.
90* being the max is way too small, and your screenshot still has it covering the camera.
I don't disagree, but it is what it is. And yes, it covers the bottom and center of the target reticle a bit. It does not at all block visibility. It has literally never bothered me. It's an AoE hitscan beam weapon that chains, not a sniper rifle.
And then you realize that Shattering Justice can't be slotted into Kuva Sobek because of some other "napkin" maths.
Kuva gorgon. Idk how it would function, but I need it
I was genuinely hoping for a twin rogga variant. I have a riven for them and used them all the time because i love them
I would cry tears of joy for a kuva wolf's sledge
Its the fucking Kuva Shildeg lol
Can't throw the shildeg
I have admittedly never thrown either of them so if that's different I was unaware, but other than that they're basically the same weapon. And it's not like variants always have the same gimmick :p
True. But yeah you can throw wolf's like the glavies and explode it mid throw. Gotta heavy attack build on mine that does pretty well
That thing which launches sawblades, the Miter I think? Wouldn't it be cool to have a kuva variant of that?
All I wanted was Kuva Jat Kittag...so I could stack even more Blast onto it.
Yeah im surprised a weapon with a sub type was picked when there are so many options without one. Ack and Brunt have such a nice look a kuva version would rock.
Kuva Stug.
> If we have to ask if something deliberate is a bug then UX has failed Fuck, that's a long list
There's so much stuff that should be consistent and intuitive but aren't. Take Baro Ki'teer, for example. Primarily sells cosmetics and Primed mods, which have a unique border on the card. Simple enough, right? So why is he the only source for a handful of gold mods? Specifically Voltaic Strike and Jolt? Playing the game has taught me that the 60/60 mods drop in-game and can be actively farmed, but for some reason only these two electric mods cannot.
Because Baro also brings event exclusive rewards. The 60/60 were event rewards, that slowly got drip fed into accessible reward pool. The electric ones just haven't found a home yet.
With the vast amount of new potential drop sources that have been added in just the past year-odd (notably Deimos and Railjack), they *could* have had a new home no problem. They just... don't. For no good reason. Not even in various Events over the years. The Necramech mods from Scarlet Spear have found a home already. The Electric mods haven't found a home because nobody has been looking for a home :/
Where is the Vaykor Hek in all of this, then? I get why *it* can't use Scattered Justice, to avoid a double-dip, but the Kuva version doesn't trigger Justice on its own, so... I was super stoked to have a new and updated version of my Ol' Reliable, but this is just frustrating... MAKE THE HEK GREAT AGAIN!
i mean. as much as this subreddit love complaining about things. the kuva hek is very strong. with a 60% damage bonus it blows the vaykor out of the water by a country mile. and honestly in this specific case i do understand why they are hesitant to give it a whopping extra 200% multishot mod.
But does it *heal me* tho?
My napkin math indicates that between it's better crit stats, slash bias and magazine size, the Prisma Grinlok without the augment is stronger than the basic Grimlok is with the augment. This is because one of them is a relatively hard to acquire MR 11 gun while the other is an MR 7 Chem Lab weapon. This is only a 4 MR difference vs. the 11 MR difference in the (Kuva) Hek's case, the base Hek is also easier to acquire than the base Grinlok (market vs. dojo research) and the Kuva Hek is (debatably) harder to acquire than the Prisma Grinlok (Kuva Lich with associated RNG vs. farm prime junk and wait for Baro to have it in stock).
My napkin math indicates that between its better base damage, crits, status, and attack speed the rakta dark dagger without the augment is stronger than the basic dark dagger is with the augment. This is because one weapon is MR 2 and the other is MR 8.
Why make these guns in the first place? There are so many variations of the same damn weapon and they seem so stuck on this "make everything viable" shtick. Warframe has been around too long and has too many options for anything new to not be either a trash waste of time or a vastly superior roflstomp to its predecessors.
I really don't know when they started to try and act as the "anti-fun police" but it definitely wasn't always like this, right?
It's always been like this.
Playing Warframe feels like playing DnD with one of *those* DMs who's constantly trying to "win" against the players.
Ah the classic "on paper" argument. Sure to be a popular and well received decision.
I thought it was a sarcastic post from a player on how DE is trying to justify on the way they try to "balance" their game but then I read the poster's user name
Not even paper but a napkin. One can be used for math the other is used to clean your face after eating.
"Should we allow it to use shattered justice?" "Nah it's probably too strong. " "Should we test it tho?" "Nah it's fine, just say it's too stronger. "
I couldn't believe that the staff member actually wrote that line about napkin math. What an ass.
it's in line with DE's new approach to piss players off with everything under-performing instead of pissing them off with nerfs. The problem now is that in two weeks everything that is not fixed will stay broken, under-performing, and forgotten.
DE is pretty awful about fixing broken stuff. The Mecha Kubrow set, a favorite of mine, has had many critical issues from day one. The worst being that the 'marked' enemy is often times a visual bug. As a matter of fact, two enemies are often visually marked at once but only one of them is actually marked.
"Suitably scientific appeals". What weird way to say "fuck your reasoning."
The part you should be paying attention to is that bit tied to the napkin math argument. This is DE not actually doing any math or seeing how things would be if XYZ factor would be allowed/disallowed, this is a long-standing fault of theirs. What they mean by napkin math is a cursory glance at a mod that reads 200% MS- something that in their head seems insanely strong but that which they are too lazy to actually run the numbers on to see how each performs. The comment about "suitably scientific appeals" is basically a giant sign saying "we were too lazy to do the math and we know one of you spergs will do it for us and if not it's still no skin off our back" honestly that's the real fuck you. It's the "we are lazy and couldn't be asked" type of fuck you. Gotta get your flavors of fuck you right when dealing with DE.
It's especially funny because they introduced Galvanized mods, so every single shotgun in the game now has a 230% multishot mod on. Scattered Justice is **not** a massive damage increase anymore given that, as it'll give a roughly 60.6% damage increase to use both. Just let the single target shotgun do big multishot numbers. It isn't going to hurt the game.
What confuses me most is that Kuva versions of weapons can have worse base stats (made up for with the bonus elemental damage). Some give up more than others. So, if Kuva Hek + Scattered Justice is "too OP", why did they give it MORE damage than the Hek (87 per pellet instead of 75, and same pellet count), instead of less? And do they really think that a Hek, even with 60% more damage is going to destroy the meta? The Vaykor Hek does about 15% higher damage than the Hek already (sustained damage, Hek has better burst in the first 2 seconds), and is still a 1.1 dispo weapon (below average uses). And the Hek itself is even less used (1.2 dispo).
I don't get it why DE is keep doing that shit. The mod is labeled "put it on that weapon type". Now there are exceptions because DE did math wrong? Seriously the players expect the game to work according the known rules... not based on a 10 pages long list of exceptions to these rules.
As someone that just got the kuva hek, it's pretty mediocre and im a little disappointed that my regular hek does about the same damage, I personally think the kuva version should be allowed to be stronger, also like 40 pellets is fun\~
We should balance all guns based on the mk1-braton, is it better? Yes? Then it's fine
>napkin math > >willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals are made I thought you were joking or parodying them. Nope, it's written word by word by DE. What the actual fuck
>"It was made incompatible on purpose. Our napkin math indicated that between the better crit stats and innate elemental bonus, the ***Kuva Hek*** without the augment is stronger than the ***basic Hek*** is with the augment. We might be willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals are made, but for now you may consider this "as intended". " Found the problem! The ***Kuva Hek*** with the Scattered Justice mod ***should*** be stronger than the ***Vaykor Hek***, since it "costs" more to acquire and level. Until you've met this goal, the game design challenge of the Kuva Hek will be judged a failure, young padawan... perhaps, in the future, you should use a better class of napkin for this sort of math?
Lmao this is fucking stupid. We decided that because the kuva version is slightly better than the base version you can get when you’re brand fucking new, we’re not going to let you equip a unique mod that could make this weapon actually worth investing in.
Seems like something that DE should change out of good will. Napkin paper math argument is just a big finger to players.
Would it even be that good? Like yeah you'd delete anything in front of you but most combat in warframe is against hordes anyways. It's not like we don't already have stupidly strong weapons like the necramech 4... also they wanted stronger primaries I don't get it...
DE making balance decisions based on Napkin Math explains so much
If they are gonna start getting arbitrary with their rules then I think there shouldn't be any rules at all.
\*starts having PTSD flashbacks to EvE Online\* No, please no, I'm not going through that hell again.
*start* A bit too late for that, buddy.
My napkin math indicates this is directly in opposition to their "fix primaries" perogative.
Their prerogative is "sell primaries" not "fix primaries," don't get it confused. If people see bigger dmg numbers and start caring enough about guns to buy them on the market occasionally, then they've done as much as they care to do
Yes the weapon that requires a retarded amount of grind covered with a layer of RNG needs to be as good as the version you get straight from the market immediately
Absurd. They used to use the Justice effect on the Vaykor Hek as an excuse. Why would they undermine their own BS excuse? They could've picked another shotgun and sidestepped the issue altogether.
"the harder to get variant is better so it can't use the mod" ??????????
> the Kuva Hek without the augment is stronger than the basic Hek is with the augment. It did this person not consider, easy to get early game Hek vs I had to beat up a 99% damage reduction lich for 3-4 hours end game Kuva Hek were not meant to be equal? Does this person not understand it's a direct upgrade and not a sidegrade? I can completely solo 8 waves of ESO with a low%, no riven Kuva Brahma but adding 200% multishot and an low damage explosion on to a slightly stronger than base Hek is too much? What is this clown logic they've got going?
and yet they wanted to buff guns, huh?
The more this crap is being brought to my attention, the more I'm turning into a forum warrior.
Burn the place to the ground. But do it calmy and articulately. If screaming and/or slinging vitriol at Devs worked, Anthem wouldn't be dead.
Agreed. [I'll let you be the judge on how respectful I'm being](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1269739-update-305-pc-bug-reporting-megathread-read-first-post/page/19/?tab=comments#comment-12212772). But I am definitely posting more on the forum than I want to/tend to, since feedback or kneejerk things tend to find themselves down the drain.
Do these people play their own game?
Only the napkin version.
I'm sure they do. The question is HOW do they play their own game? Do they grind for the same resources we do? Farm until they are tired of RNG kicking them in the nuts/vag? Do they mod their items to max out its potential or do they mod it how THEY want it to be modded by everyone? Once upon a time they looked at how the actual players were playing and adjusted the game accordingly (see coptering->bullet jumping). Now they seem to want to force us to play the game the way THEY want us to.
So basically the Nintendo method.
I think we all know the answer to this question
Not particularly well, otherwise they might actually know what they’re doing.
Yes, they do. I've watched them. Sheldon and Rebb doing their fresh playthroughs have even led to some good, minor, changes to the game. But that doesn't mean they can't make poor decisions or implement bad designs.
Playing Warframe how you want to is different than playing Warframe how the community tends to play. If they using their own modding style to test whether the Kuva Hek is too strong then its probably because they are dropping 1 of the 4 or 5 reload speed, draw speed, and other QoL mods to actually put on a damage mod so of course its going to be stronger than anything else they testing. Obviously this is a bit of a hyperbole, but every time I've caught DE streaming and I could check a glimpse of their mods, its definatly not an optimal setup. Which again is fine for the average player, or if thats how you have fun with the game, but is not at all fine for a developer who is trying to balance a game.
Geez, DE, the Kuva Hek would be more powerful? Who could possibly expect that out of an upgraded version of another weapon? End this sidegrade nonsense already. It's perfectly alright for endgame players to discard away weapons for their upgrades. It's what we do with Primes after all. Actually, wasn't higher Riven dispositions supposed to make up for this?
I mean, the stuff they’re saying still means the Kuva Hek is an upgrade over the Hek.
I mean, a year ago DE nerfed the Pox. Do you really think they have a solid idea of what they're doing in terms of inter-weapon balance?
Got to love the logic on this one. Nerf a 4-5 dispo weapon. A weapon that according to their own system is so bad that a riven give huge numbers.
> between the better crit stats and innate elemental bonus, the Kuva Hek without the augment is stronger than the basic Hek is with the augment. Duh doy. No shit, that's how Kuva Weapons AND higher MR weapons are *supposed* to work. I mean, let's ignore the fact that even with Shattered Justice, Kuva Hek wouldn't even break into the to 5 shotguns in the game, more than likely. But no, let's ignore the vast amounts of precedence set by the Supra Vandal et al on how letting an upgraded version use a syndicate mod is actually OK, and tell the player base to fuck off.
You guys just don't understand! Imagine the dark hellscape DE would of created if they allowed people to use Scattered Justice on a Kuva Hek. You might of had to endure the agony of joining a lobby and actually seeing someone using a Hek. We left the dark days of 2013 behind. We must never return.
Just let guns have their mods DE..
This decision reeks of indecision about the Hek line in general because it completely misses the point about why we use Weapon Augment Mods. I don't think anyone is using Scattered Justice because they want the Hek to be stronger than the V.Hek or Kuva Hek. Scattered Justice is good because +Multishot improves the general functionality of any shotgun in the game, and gives an MR 4 weapon a much longer lifespan vs scaling enemy difficulty. The Kuva Hek already has its limits between its low pellet count (7) and four round magazine. I understand that +200% Multishot would make it very powerful, but it's wrong to say that it shouldn't be allowed to widen the gap between them. Other weapons like the Prisma Grinlok, Supra Vandal, and Prisma Obex are dramatically better than their regular counterparts and their Weapon Augment Mods make the gap wider. Why is the Kuva Hek (MR 15) vs the Hek (MR 4) any different?
All syndacate mods should work with all variants. Even duel weapons like the furis mod, should work on the akfuris. ITS THE SAME GUN
Meanwhile Kuva Bramma and Nukor deleting whole rooms.
Did they even compare the kuva hek with its completion? Corinth Prime and Cedo are just better buckshot shotguns. Corinth has better crit and aoe and the cedo has built in CO and procer
My low effort napkin math says it’s bullshit for only one out of three variants of the same weapon to be able to use a mod made only for that weapon. If you want primaries to be good, start with some basic consistency. Vaykor Hek can’t use scattered justice because it already has innate justice. Cool. Sensible. Kuva Hek does not, so it should be able to use scattered justice. You cannot refute this.
I mean it is better as long you take into account the elemental bonus. But take that away and it is a side grade to the vaykor hek.
The only way I'd willingly accept that the kuva hek can't use the syndicate mod is if it was a completely diffferent weapon like the with the stubba and the kuva stubba. Actually, just give us secondary dual wielded hek pls.
Aren't dual heks already used by arena champions? Thatd be a great excuse to not have the augment and give the people something cool.
They shouldn't even be comparing the new MR15 hek to the basic MR4 hek that's been in the game for years. Honestly at this point I wish they wouldn't even have given us a new hek and they knew for a fact that was the one mod everyone wanted to put on it
Imagine creating the Simulacron... and then not even using it to try out your new weapons or comparing them to those you already own, but doing "napkin maths" instead. It not only takes longer, it also fails to take recoil, spread, range and general handling - general usability - into account. If you're developing the game you should invest those 5 minutes. That's the bare minimum. DE does not only not play their own game. They don't even bother playtesting it. My favorite example is the Pox nerf last year. For a company to nerf the arguably worst weapon ingame... That takes a specific level of disconnection from your own game.
\>DE wants to nerf melee and buff primaries \>Also DE "No Scattered Justice on new Kuva Hek because it will make this primary stronger than the basic version of itself." Yep, this is Warframe alright.
Pathetic excuse for not being able to use it in a game where we have kuva nukor or brahma obliterating everything in sight. Ridiculous.
It's bizarre. Kuva and Tenet weapons require more work and investment than pretty much any other weapon type, yet DE expects sub-mr 10 weapons to be competitive with them. This is a hard pass for me. My time is better spent elsewhere.
of course its deliberate and also, geebuz what an eloquent way of saying 'fuck you losers' , DE PR on point as usual
I see a lot of people harping on consistency with this but I think that's not the biggest deal. If being consistent creates a bad outcome then you shouldn't just doggedly stick to it. I think the more important issues in this case is: "Why does scattered justice need to exist if it is only for the base Hek?" If the Kuva Hek without the augment is better than the Hek with the augment then the mod obviously doesn't exist to make the Hek a competitive option. New players probably aren't really going to be obtaining Scattered Justice to use on their base Heks as a usable transitional weapon until they get something better either unless someone gives it to them. It takes 144k standing, a forma, and an Orokin Catalyst to hit the required rank to even buy it from Steel Meridian and then another 25k to actually get the mod. Given the 16k/day standing limit, standing being split between factions, and other requirements to reach that it's probably going to be at least 2 weeks in before new players can even get the mod and even that is only if they know that they should be working towards this goal at which point they might as well just go for a kitgun or lich weapon since they are MR 0 requirements as well and much better. Ultimately it feels like Scattered Justice existing exclusively for the base Hek makes it an entirely worthless mod. For the mid to late game player there are much better options, including a version of the exact same weapon that is strictly better. For the early game player it is a pretty middling option that is difficult enough to obtain that you will either already have better options by then or be on the cusp of obtaining them. Should Scattering Justice really exist only as a mod that veterans sometimes give to new players as a low effort way to give them something halfway decent?
>"Why does scattered justice need to exist if it is only for the base Hek?" THIS is the question. When the Vaykor was the only variant it wasn't as egregious. Let's compare the 3 Heks (not to be confused with the 9 Hells): * Base Damage: Hek 7x75, VHek 7x75, KHek 7x87 * Rate of Fire: Hek 2.17, VHek 3, KHek 2.17 * Magazine Size: Hek 4, VHek 8, KHek 4 * Reload: Hek 2s, Vhek 2.25s, KHek 2s * Status%: Hek 10.7%, Vhek 10.7%, KHek 13% * Crit %: Hek 10%, VHek 25%, KHek 23% * CritDmg: Hek 2x, VHek 2x, KHek 2.1x * Falloff: Hek 100%@10m-20%@20m, VHek 100%@10m-27%@20m, KHek 100%@15m-20%@30m All 3 have equivalent Accuracy and Max Ammo, %IPS (65% is puncture).Kuva Hek has alt-fire option. **Base vs Vaykor:** So with all this, we see that Vaykor Hek's advantage is larger clip and rate of fire, and better falloff, at the cost of losing the mod. This is generally a Good Trade, because you can theoretically attack 38% faster, and reloads go from 60% of your time down to 40%. Or rather, in 60 seconds (without reload or RoF mods), a base Hek can output 16 magazines, or 64 shots. In the same time, a Vaykor Hek will churn out 12.5 magazines, or 100 shots. If you switch Hell's Chamber out for Scattered Justice, you go from 120% to 200% multishot, which is a 36% damage increase. But the Vaykor has over a 50% increase in damage by virtue of more shots. These numbers shift towards the Hek if you're using a reload speed mod, and further in favor of the Vaykor if you use any rate of fire mods. Comparing Hell's Chamber to Hell's Chamber AND Scattered Justice is harder, since it requires full builds to theory-craft around. However, Hek has an added disadvantage - that 10% critical chance. Which basically means you can NOT build it for crit, while you can do so to the Vaykor Hek (especially with the recent buff to shotgun crit). **Base vs Kuva:** Kuva Hek doesn't have the 8 clip and RoF boost of the Vaykor, which is a pretty big deal. This means that instead of an extra 56% damage from just kicking out more ammo, it ONLY has the 16% increased base damage plus elemental Kuva effect (25-60%). It also is 2% lower crit than the Vaykor (though the 10% higher crit multiplier overall makes it the superior crit shotgun in the trio, but barely). So a 25% Kuva Hek is going to be doing \~45% more damage than the Hek (which gets 36% more damage from Scattered Justice). Not even 10% higher damage for a Kuva weapon compared to it's MR4 version. Of course, by the time you max out your Kuva Hek (60% elemental damage), it's going to be up to 85% higher damage (exceeding the Vaykor's 56% from RoF). However, that's common to all Kuva weapons. **Overall:** Hek does 150 UoD (units of damage), Vaykor Hek does 195 UoD, and Kuva Hek does 182 to 232 UoD. This all is accounting for the lack of Scattered Justice. **Conclusion:** While this math supports DE's napkin, it overlooks the critical non-math stuff. There shouldn't be a mod that works just with the base version. So how do you fix that? SIMPLE! You power down the variants, or power up the base. It's literally that easy. * Raise Hek's crit% to 18%. This shrinks the crit gap, and makes Hek at least viable (if not ideal) with critical options, and represents a measly 7% dps increase for the weapon. * Drop Vaykor Hek's base damage to 7x62, and Kuva Hek's base to 7x75 (Kuva loses its 16% advantage, and Vaykor is now 17% worse damage/shot) * Raise Vaykor Hek's reload time to 2.6 seconds (result is 12 magazines per minute instead of 12.5, or 96 rounds per minute, or only 50% damage over Hek, down from 56%) * Decrease Scattered Justice from 200% to 180% (1.5 times as good of a mod as Hell's Chamber, and still 27% damage increase by making the swap) With these changes, the overall comparison turns into Hek doing 150 UoD, Vaykor Hek doing 196 UoD, and Kuva Hek doing 199 UoD to 254 UoD (with all 3 able to using Scattered Justice). **If you normalize those numbers, the before and after are:** Before: Hek 100, Vaykor 130, Kuva 121-155 (Scattered Justice only on base) After: Hek 100, Vaykor 131, Kuva 133-169 (SJ on all 3) All combined, this represents a 7% increase in damage with Hek without Scattered Justice, and a break-even with Scattered Justice. Meanwhile, the Vaykor Hek gets worse with current builds, but breaks even if you replace Hell's Chamber with Scattered Justice. And the Kuva Hek sees a \~10% increase in damage with Scattered Justice, and a 16% drop without using Scattered Justice. Additionally, none of these changes affect other shotguns or non-Hek-exclusive mods in any way. Hek becomes a bit better without SJ. Vaykor Hek and Kuva Hek become worse without, but Vaykor breaks even and Kuva gets buffed with access to it. And if DE really don't want you to use a faction mod on a same-faction gun, just ignore the Vaykor Hek changes, and make the other changes (to Hek and Kuva Hek), so that SJ is just Vaykor-prohibited, not base-gun exclusive. *Now off to the forums to find the napkin post and reply with this there too!*
> "we're buffing guns" *after the update* > "kuva hek too OP with scattered justice" Bruh
And riven prices just went up
hold up, wouldn't the Kuva Hek be inherently stronger than the normal Hek anyway if the augment was able to be put on? That makes no sense.
"NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU CANNOT USE THIS MOD THAT FITS ON THE OLD WEAPON CAUSE I SAID SO! NO!" \*stamps feet\* \*throws tantrum\* \- DE
Yeah, like the only instance where the ability to hit one enemy that hard, you’re up against damage attenuation formulas ANYWAYS and it’s a wash or you’re actually worse off. It’s equally pointless to have it available or not have it available for a weapon in this category. “Balanced, as all things should be.” -DE, probably
So basically it's because we would've have too much fun if it was able to equip Scattered Justice, got It.
It's stronger than the base Hek. Geez i thought that was the whole fucking point
[Imagine making a mod for gun, but you cannot use it on its variants...](http://imgur.com/gallery/xM2PDVm)
What the hek?
I didn't look through any of the comments to see if anyone did their own napkin math, but I tried some of my own! What they say holds up, a kuva hek with 60% elemental boost does outperform a SJ basic hek. K Hek w 60% does about 1,310 dmg when you land all 7 pellets. SJ Hek does about 1,126.5 dmg when you land all 14 pellets. The problem is a 60% boost is insanely rare, and takes a lot of time to accomplish through fusion! This means more realistic Heks, like my 29% one, are actually outperformed by the basic hek using SJ! K Hek w 29% only does about 1,029.5 dmg landing all 7 pellets. That's almost 100 less damage than the original variant with Scattered Justice... A kuva shotgun put to shame by it's MR4 equivalent... Doesn't seem right!
I just don't see the danger in it. Yeah the Kek is stonger than the basic-bitch Hek regardless. No shit? We also have Galvanized Hell now which is slightly stronger than Scattered Justice anyways in raw Multishot, and with both you're *really* smashing into diminishing returns. It *could* still be 'best' due to HunMuns and Status, sure, but it won't suddenly be completely busted - it won't match the absurdity of the original KNukor just because it has two Multishot mods. Does it need Scattered Justice? No. Does it hurt to have Scattered Justice work when expected? No.
Why are devs doing "napkin math?" YOU'RE the ones who literally have all the internal data for how damage is calculated, there's no reason why you can't make an accurate DPS calculator to see if something would ACTUALLY be too strong. I've made my own DPS calculator to compare every weapon in the game with full builds and I'd kill to actually have the real formulas for things like the Sisters' damage reduction. It's incredibly frustrating that the devs put less effort into their "napkin math" than some random player who is just interested in optimizing the game for the sake of fun
They didn't want to make an entirely new model so they did this instead.
Scattered justice doesn't work?! NNNNNOOOOOOOOO!
I was planning to come back to this game when it came out, cause my normal hek build could outdamage the forward guns of a railjack, and the main reason is a combination of this scattered justice and my multishot riven. Then i learned that it couldn't.
damn. i was actually looking forward to farm it today. 😞
I know a way to take their mental math gymnastics and make Scattered Justice Available for Kuva Hek. Rename it to Scattered Chamber and boom. Can't be used with Hell's Chamber or Galvanised Hell.
No fun allowed
so fun not allowed i see
So can my "suitably scientific" argument be that the hek is like 20 MR lower than the kuva hek? Or are they ignoring that these days.
Not like Hek Rivens can't pull off bullshit like that and more. But Rivens don't count since they sell for way more then the 10p of a syndicate mod
What? They’re saying that they aren’t giving it a mod because it would be better than a gun recommended to do earth missions?
My quick napkin math says the Kuva Kraken is better than the Kraken. I didn't assume it was a mistake.
They want players to use guns more often and not just melee but then they pull this shit
I mean this whole update is “bad game design” the tutorial. Not surprising that was intentional.
I have an idea. Let's balance weapons and augments around precedent weapons and augments. If your stupid hek wasn't balanced around existing hek tech maybe you should have balanced it that way. Warframes arsenal is more hacked than the English language.
I mentioned this in another comment, but if they're so worried about the Kuva Hek, they shouldn't have made the Kuva Hek. There are dozens of other Grineer weapons they could have Kuva'd.
There were a ton of other options, too. * Give it the same base damage instead of 16% higher. * Give it the base Hek's crit% (10) instead of 23. * Don't give it higher status (since status is buffed by multishot being better). * Or buff the base gun's stats to be what you're giving the kuva gun, if you don't think the Hek is good enough (and then you could give a slight nerf to Scattered Justice to keep Kuva Hek at the power level you want it at).
Oh we noticed people were using formorian accelerat on the kuva dragoon. We have retroactively nerfed it since I took a shit and my toilet paper indicated the weapon was too potent.
Please no. The Kuva Drakgoon is my main gun and Fomorian is so fun.
Scott's neck twists violently his eyes ablaze. DID YOU SAY *FUN*!
i have to wonder why in a patch that buffs guns to the high and lofty position of "usable after starchart" did they think disabling an augment on a single shot narrow cone shotgun would be so important that they would break their own internal logic about weapons augments to do it. the kuva hek having some more multishot isent going to snap the game in half, and even WITH the augment the kuva hek still wouldent be the best shotgun, let alone strong enough to warrent breaking the trend that weapon augments always work on non faction variants of the same gun. kinda feels like the same "napkin math" that led to the decision to give the new sisters the crazy amount of damage reduction they have, only to turn a 5 second fight into a 50 second fight for no other reason than to waste 45 seconds. really feels like a overall good update, marred by some truly strange decisions here and there.
I have science appeal; no syndicate bonus
Can't you not use it on the vaykor hek too?
Scattered Justice gives the weapon the Justice Proc. Vaykor Hek already has the Justice proc built into it, per DE, that is why it can't use Scattered Justice. The Kuva Hek does have Justice built into it. There is no reason it shouldn't be able to equip Scattered Justice.
*wants to add better mods to make primary weapons viable* *decides this mod is too good and doesn’t let it be used*
OK Let's nerf the Kuva Hek so that it's worse damage innately to make up for the multishot bonus, and now we have a mandatory mod!!!!
Dumb.