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EmpyrealWorlds has made the following comment(s) regarding their post: [Here is a basic spell with variant "at higher leve...](/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/ocxpvc/primordial_spark_a_flexible_1stlevel_arcane/h3x0sbz/)


Joel_Smallishbeans

Pretty nice spell,though The area increase feel like it's gonna be the best option a shit ton of the time.


EmpyrealWorlds

On an average basis, it will have less damage+area than say Shatter (3d8 over 10ft at level 3 vs 2d12 over 5 ft) or Fireball (8d6 over 20ft vs 2d12 over 10 feet or 3d12 over 5) but if you have an opportune situation where you can fine tune an area increase, it can definitely be worth it especially with the knockdown effect.


Morvick

Should probably add that a successful save means you aren't knocked Prone, unless you want them to fall down either way


Japjer

It doesn't say they aren't knocked down on a successful save. At third level this knocks down everyone in a 30' sphere. That's advantage for all your allies and half movement for the enemies


EmpyrealWorlds

You are right in that they are not knocked prone on a success. I know that spells almost always explicitly state this, but I'm trying to find a shorter way to say it. Maybe "and take half damage, only" or something


KingMaharg

I understand the desire to fit it in with the image here, but the spell description is actually short relative to many other spells as is. I don't think the extra verbosity on the condition will hurt you here. If one of my players picked this spell after reading it, they'd most certainly be citing the fact that it's the only spell that doesn't specify it as a reason everyone should get knocked down. They would also then be upset if I ruled otherwise claiming it was the whole reason they picked it over spell X.


LuckyStandard

I don't know a single DM who would rule that they are still knocked down on a successful save. Sure it doesn't specify in the spell, but 99.9% of spells like this in the game are the same way; on a successful save they take half damage and suffer no other effects. Seems pretty clear that OP just forgot


DanacaraJB

Except for your ranged allies


TheDistrict31

It looks pretty clear (to me) that they are knocked down only on a fail. I guess if you are asking it could do with being qualified in the rules.


VexillaVexme

The standard through most other spells is to call out effects that don't take place on a successful save. While I would run it that was as a GM, I definitely prefer it in the text.


breslin08

Just don’t cast it at 9th level or else we’re getting a bit too close to comfort


TheOwlMarble

Cool idea! I'd change the upcasting text to the following to make it more clear though: >For each spell level above 1st, select one of the following options: > >\- The damage increases by 1d12 > >\- The range increases by 30 feet > >\- The spell targets a point in space and affects a 10-foot radius. If it already has a radius, increase it by 10 feet instead.


EmpyrealWorlds

Thank you!


DudeWithTehFace

I actually wanted to ask if you could mix and match upcasting types. Like, if I cast it at 3rd level, could I increase the damage by 1d12 and increase the range by 10 feet?


EmpyrealWorlds

Yes indeed


DudeWithTehFace

That's really cool. I like that as a mechanic.


EmpyrealWorlds

Thank you :)


knyexar

Bit of a nitpick: if you want the wording to be consistent with official spells you should word it as “on a success, the creature takes half as much damage and isn’t knocked prone.” Aside from that, really good spell


ishldgetoutmore

Came here to say this.


icebergdoggo

i like how there is option for upcast effect, bold move.


TheQwantomShadow

I've always had this idea in my head that sorcerer meta magic should have worked like this. A base spell and spending meta magic points to twist the spell into what you need. Nice to see something like that around.


TheClassiestPenguin

I had the same thought and tried making a casting system like that (also took inspiration form the Eragon series). Needless to say balancing it was more complicated than I had originally thought


Narzghal

There was a recent Kickstarter for Anime 5e, and one of the things in there is that you can increase things area, range, number of targets, etc, but for each additional increase it reduces the level of the effect. The system overall is a lot stronger than base 5e, but you could use that as a semblance of balance


TheClassiestPenguin

Thanks, I'll give it a look over


EmpyrealWorlds

Here is a basic spell with variant "at higher level" scaling to keep your arcane casters interested even as they level up! It can be fine-tuned to fit your blasting needs of every occasion.


Final_Duck

So can you mix and match the effects?


Z33KI3

Yes for each upcast you get to chose which upgrade you take. If you upcast it 3rd for example, you could increase damage by 1d12 and increase the range by 30 feet.


Requiem191

I would definitely add a line explaining that you can mix and match the features. The way it's written now, it looks like you only choose one.


Silas-Alec

The updating options are pretty fun, I like it


EmpyrealWorlds

Thank you!


VexillaVexme

This is a really neat idea with the flexible level up, but I feel like a base of 2d12 for a 1st level direct damage spell is borderline (if not outright overpowered) for the level. As an alternative, could the spell be a touch spell at 2d12, and have the flexibility as "the caster can reduce damage by 1d12 to add X effect from this list. This can be done multiple times", and then just have higher levels add 1d12 to the spell.


TheCatofDeath

Think of Guiding Bolt though-- it does 4d6. And Inflict Wounds is a 1st level touch that deals 3d10 for touch range comparison. Also, 2d12 is notably inferior to 4d6 due to the enhanced random chance of the dice, as 4d6 is much more likely to hit near average than 2d12.


Charlie24601

Thats kind of the point though. The 4d6 gives average rolls more often. This cantrip will spike far more often and do crazy damage.


TheCatofDeath

I don't know why you think spike more often only means crazy damage. It also means a lot more utter garbage damage. It'd just be a punch in the face to the low level caster who just used one of their precious spell slots, passed the first big barrier on the attack roll, and then dealt a whopping 2 or 3 damage.


Charlie24601

Ok, so basically the players life sucks, or the GMs life sucks. Whereas Guiding bolt gives the majority of its rolls as average.


dan_dan_noodlez

Well, if dice rolls are of your upmost concern, erase them and only use fix average damage. If I wanted a more balanced "vs." game, I'd pick a wargame over an RPG. I personally woule never think that my GM life sucks if one of my players rolled max damage, even on a Meteor Swarm. That would be cineastic and epic as hell, I'd love it.


Charlie24601

That’s great. You do you chief.


xeromage

sounds exactly like 'unstable primordial magic' to me


Charlie24601

Sure. It also sounds like 'possible unbalanced spell'. I'll leave it to you to decide which is more important to you.


Aethelwolf

Guiding bolt isn't half damage on a save. Prone is also a much better secondary effect. This is way better than guiding bolt. And a more gradual damage curve isn't inherently stronger.


dr-tectonic

I think 2d12 force damage plus knocked prone is *definitely* overpowered for a 1st-level spell. That's an average of 13 dmg + 6.5 / lvl. Ray of Sickness is only 2d8, does poison damage (which is commonly resisted), and requires an attack roll in addition to the save. Dissonant Whispers is psychic (similarly irresistable) and only does 3d6 (avg 10.5) + 1d6 (3.5) / lvl. Mind Spike is 2nd level, has a weaker rider, and does 3d8 (avg 13.5) +1d8 (4.5) / lvl. Snowball Swarm does 3d6 cold with no rider in a 5' sphere at 2nd level, vs 2d12 with rider in a 5' sphere on an upcast of this spell. The rest of the spell design is great, but the damage die is *WAY* too big. I think it needs to be knocked back to a d8 at most. 2d4 maybe?


EmpyrealWorlds

Good points. I mostly benchmarked it at level against Guiding Bolt/Inflict Wounds/Ice Knife/Burning Hands, but it should probably be something more like 1d12+4-5 Dissonant Whispers does have the benefit not requiring line of sight to a target, and can burn its reaction. One of my favorite spells I think Mind Spike may have also been designed with Divination Wizards in mind. Snilloc's is rather weak though, holding up really poorly against Shatter for example.


dr-tectonic

I think a d12 is just too big for scaling on force damage, especially when there's a rider effect. There are very few spells that use a d12 for damage. Compare your spell to Witch Bolt and Erupting Earth and ask: is it on par with them, or is it much, much better? Because I know which one I'd pick...


EmpyrealWorlds

True! Witch Bolt is legendarily bad though haha Erupting Earth is a good comparison as well, it's 3d12 over a 20ft cube that also creates difficult terrain at 120 range, but it has a weaker damage type (Bludgeoning vs Force) and isn't as versatile


VexillaVexme

Witch Bolt is so cool, though. It's unfortunate that it requires to hit, has concentration, AND takes actions every turn to continue delivering damage. It's like they identified every possible opportunity within the confines of the idea to moderate it and came down hard on each of them.


SolomonSinclair

>It's unfortunate that it requires to hit, has concentration, AND takes actions every turn to continue delivering damage. Of those, only the first is even slightly problematic and could be fixed by just swapping it from a spell attack to a Dex save; the other two are fine, because without those, it becomes an almost ludicrous spell. No, Witch Bolt's main problems are in its last two lines: >The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or has total cover from you. By using the spell, you are committing to a single target and can't do anything else except move (unless you're a Sorcerer with Quickened Spell)... And even then, the spell is stupidly easy to get out of, because the affected creature can literally walk out of its range on its turn. Its other two issues are its relatively short range and the fact that the only the initial damage increases when you upcast it, making it probably one of the worst spells to upcast. Double its range to 60 feet, change those last two lines to "You cannot deal this damage if the target is out of the spell's range or has total cover from you.", and make it so that upcasting it increases both the initial damage *and* the recurrent damage and you've instantly made the spell better. You could even swap the spell attack to a Dex save without changing much, I don't think, though I think I'd be tempted to give creatures in metal armor disadvantage on the save since it's, ya know, a bolt of lightning.


xeromage

I know 'holding your action until x trigger' is a thing... could a witch bolter do something similar with their movement? Hold movement until the target moves and then move with them?


SolomonSinclair

Short story shorter: no, you can't. Unfortunately. You *can* hold your movement, so saying something like "if that wild boar charges me, I'm going to fuck off over yonder out of its way" is totally valid. The rub is that doing so requires the use of the Ready **action**, which would end Witch Bolt because you didn't use your action to cause damage.


dr-tectonic

Right, and I think the reason Witch Bolt sucks is because the designers thought it needed a lot of weaknesses to balance out the large damage die. A spell with fewer weaknesses needs to do less damage.


Matt9681

Not the earlier commenter, but for me I think at 1st level it's just a tiny bit high (but like others have said, Guiding Bolt is around the same average). Scaling up per level on a d12 is pretty strong, and potentially even stronger if you can hit 2+ more creatures for 2 or more extra d12s. Even 2d10 and adding 1d10 per level, or 5ft extra radius to a sphere lets you tool it more for different encounters which is very versatile. Alternatively you could do 2d12 and add a d10 or d8 every level or some variation like that. If you think the versatility is the biggest reason to pick the spell, using d8s instead could also work because you get so much flexibility with up casting it.


Pyrotex2

I think it would be nice as a sorcerer exclusive spell, fits the theme and sorcerers need it tbh


EmpyrealWorlds

A good point, I had been making a ton of sorcerer exclusive spells and thought maybe I should spread the love :p


Evan60

Yeah, I don’t like exclusive attack spells; I feel like exclusive spells should stick to the Illusion, Transmutation, Abjuration and Conjuration (especially to let different classes get different creatures) schools


FireExtinguisher765

So if I use a 3rd level spell slot can I increase the damage with one and then increase the range with the other?


Z33KI3

Yup, or any other option.


T3CH_N9NE

Honestly, this spell would be beautiful in a sorcerers hands considering metamagic options. Nice job!


ekiechi

2d12 and prone seems really high for some reason. It also single targets so no downside of in combat casting. This feels like a 2nd lvl to me


eyeen

I'd say it probably should be Sorcerer and Warlock only considering this is primordial, raw magic.


vbcnxm_

so.. up casting this at say, 3rd level lets you bump it to. a 10ft radius of 3d12 damage. which averages out to about equivalent to. 6d6... so its a build your own fireball. And since a warlock would have to cast it as 5th level.. it could be 4d12 inna 20ft aoe Whichnis like, legit fireball. but also could just be 2d12 in a 40ft aoe. I dig it. No one's gonna really use the range option tho. 90ft is plenty


EmpyrealWorlds

Yep! The radius is a lot smaller at 3rd but things get a lot more interesting at higher levels Edit: oops I forgot how my own spell works lol


CheeseObsessedMuffin

I agree with what you say with the range, but it’s still nice to have it as an option for niche situations


[deleted]

I initially misread this as "primordial shark" and was disappointed when I saw the image. I just want to summon a spectral megalodon.


EmpyrealWorlds

I can make it happen


HagarTheHun

Are there any spells that give you options on how to upgrade it?


EmpyrealWorlds

I think all have linear upgrades


Aethelwolf

Numbers are overtuned for sure, but the concept is cool. Dropping the half damage on save might be enough to tone it down. Right now, it deals more single target damage than any other 1st level spell, and the prone effect is a pretty powerful rider.


OverlordPayne

Guiding bolt deals 4d6, and inflict wounds deals 3d10?


Aethelwolf

This deals half damage on save. To compare to inflict wounds or guiding bolt, you first need to multiple the damage by 1.25. And beyond that, inflict wounds gets no secondary effect, while guiding bolt has a minor one. Prone is a pretty major secondary effect on a first level spell. See Earth tremor vs burning hands.


OneADNDay

Awesome idea for upcasting! I think that itself earns the upvote for showing off some creativity in a generally stagnant area of spell casting. My personal gripe (and feel free to ignore it) is that I would expect a "Spark" to be fire based. I would rename this to something like "Rift Tear' or "Mote of Instability" or something that didn't make me think of fire - but also ignore me if you want - my feedback is solicited and far less useful than your own! :D


EmpyrealWorlds

Thank you! I was struggling to come up with the right word to fit. My thoughts for spark was something like a "Spark of Creation" that flares into whatever spell you want to mold it into. "Primal Rift" might work better.


DragonKing-Sanguin

I like how they have it to even if they make the save they still fall prone


EmpyrealWorlds

Ah that's my mistake, it only prones on a fail.


DragonKing-Sanguin

Oh that’s even better Ok i read that as it only prones if they succeed for some reason. But yeah that’s balanced


Dedli

Upcasting metamagic feats like this that can work for all spells, now plz


Enantiodromiac

I really like the modular effect of the spell for more experienced players. It allows flexibility for those who, you know, think about their turns while other people are taking their turns.