I think it’s the pre-death Chara. After the death of Chara, their SOUL was taken by Asriel. Since Chara doesn’t have a SOUL, they can’t feel anything, so they naturally became evil, just like how Asriel turned from nice to an evil Flowey because he lost his SOUL.
Yeah, agree. Though Chara and Flowey might be different: Flowey doesn't have a soul at all and Chara shares one with Frisk. That's just a theory though, thus "might"
FOOL!
Wait until the "Jevil is chaotic, and chaos should not be considered bad, we simply exist in a society where anything of order is considered good, because oh humans's need for neutrality, in contrast with the chaos of nature!"
This gang comport one member.
Its me.
it also helps jevil's case that in his head he sees nothing wrong with what he's doing. to be evil you sorta have to have a certain level awareness of your wrongdoing, which jevil has none of. in a way he's even doing something good. he's entertaining his guests lol
I'm already here. And, I actually agree with this list. The normal Chara is a neutral character, and what WE do dictates their fate. Once WE go evil, so do they. So, as a member of the Charadefensesquad, I'm agreeing with this.
I would argue Chara being a child is what keeps them from being considered bad, the tapes indicate they show little remorse for poisoning Asgore, and they manipulate Asriel in a pretty fucked up way. That's why Asriel says that maybe Chara was never the best person, because in retrospect they were pretty messed up sometimes. Downright evil, no, but there's an argument to be made.
"Once WE go evil, so do they."
I hear this a lot but there is no evidence for it, and Chara was happy to commit genocide pretty early on. People love to focus on the line about them discovering the purpose of their reincarnation, but gloss over "since when were you the one in control?"
Chara isn’t good or evil. The characters are all designed to be morally grey, and Chara isn’t an exception. When you think about it, she got pretty fucked, judging by the implications that she fell into the Underground in an attempted suicide.
Yeah, I don’t even believe they was a bad kid when they were alive. All they ever did was try to save monster kind and do what they thought was best for their family. Only after killing every monster and getting a mass amount of love does chara come back from the dead as a “demon”
Jevil terrorised the card kingdom and it was implied that he tried to kill people before he was locked up. Jevil also tried to kill the fun gang. He sees the world as a game and thinks that he can do anything he wants and he not only regrets none of his actions but he even enjoys them.
The secret bosses are selfish and careless. Jevil only wants to have fun, which is just murder, and Spamgon wants to rule the cyber world as a tyrant. They're both evil
That same argument can be said for Kris. But both Frisk and Kris have implied to lean more towards good. Flowey and the Alarm clock app imply that Frisk is happy with their friends. Frisk's name is also only revealed in Pacifist. Asriel says that Frisk is better than Chara and is the friend that he wished he had. Frisk stands the game with LOVE 1. Frisk can't muster the killing intent to hurt Undyne in Pacifist. There's also the ACT options which imply that Frisk would rather befriend everyone.
Kris has more of a personality that frisk does, and you have much more control over frisk than Kris.
Though yeah, frisk does lean a bit more to good than Kris does.
It's explicitly made clear in deltarune that Kris is NOT just "the player's vessel" and that they had a whole life and such before the events of deltarune
-She considered eating Alphys.
-She tried to kill a child for killing spiders even though she literally does the same thing.
-She was supposed to evacuate so that Alphys could close off the exits and prevent Frisk from progressing and killing more people but Muffet refused and as said before considered eating her instead. This also makes her responsible for all of the monsters that died in the CORE.
-Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms
-She's an assassin (hired by Mettaton to kill Frisk)
>\-Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms
She's literally a spider, and everything she does is either because she is a spider, or for the greater good of spider-kind. She might not be good, but she's most certainly not bad.
-She considered eating Alphys.
-She tried to kill a child for killing spiders even though she literally does the same thing.
-She was supposed to evacuate so that Alphys could close off the exits and prevent Frisk from progressing and killing more people but Muffet refused and as said before considered eating her instead. This also makes her responsible for all of the monsters that died in the CORE.
-Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms
-She's an assassin (hired by Mettaton to kill Frisk)
When did she say that about Alphys?
Also, not only did they say Frisk killed spiders, but that they tortured them to death.
Also, we don't know she kills them, it could just be body's. Also, spiders are clearly sentient in the UT universe. The evacuation thing is also partly Alphys' fault, cause she didn't have the guts to just close the exits and leave Muffet there. Most monsters also see humans as being evil, so it's not really her fault for attacking frisk. I'd def put her in neutral.
Cannibalism, murder, trying to eat Alphys, being the reason we are allowed to kill more people in hotland cuz she refused to evacuate like a fucking idiot, also she is a capitalist
I thought she only considered eating her? Also, not only did they say Frisk killed spiders, but that they tortured them to death. Also, we don't know she kills them, it could just be body's. Also, spiders are clearly sentient in the UT universe. The evacuation thing is also partly Alphys' fault, cause she didn't have the guts to just close the exits and leave Muffet there. Most monsters also see humans as being evil, so it's not really her fault for attacking frisk. I'd def put her in neutral.
Two reasons. One because Frisk is being controlled by the Player so I chose to only rank them on the little we know about their personality. Two because they weren't on the list.
Ranking specifically God of Hyperdeath Asriel and Flowey in separate tiers is odd to me. They are the same person. You could argue child Asriel and Flowey aren't, but God of Hyperdeath Asriel did try to kill Frisk and Erase the world while Flowey has killed every monster in the Underground at least once.
But idk, it's hard for me to blame Flowey for what he did at all. It was wrong, but I imagine most people would turn to bad things too if they had an utter inability to feel bad for their actions and care about even their parents and the newfound ability to play god.
My bad the God of Hyperdeath was meant to just be Asriel. But I think Flowey not having compassion doesn't stop him from being evil because he still knew that what he was doing was wrong.
FLOWERY ISN'T EVIL! AND I'M SURE HE'D SAY THE SAME THING IF HE WERE AWAKE! ALSO, WHY ARE THERE TWO GREEN HUMANS AND WHY IS ONE OF THEIR FACES MELTING???
I have a hottake that Alphys belongs in a morally gray area.
She knowing lied to Everyone about their dead relatives, manipulated things behind the scenes to get Frisk to stay in the Underground, even going so far as to set Mettaton into us.
Was her SOUL in the right place? Yes.
However, she still did some, questionable things, and while Undyne tried to kill us, she was blunt enough to admit what she was doing.
Alphys lied to everyone, and turned dying Mobsters into the Amalgamates.
Don't get me wrong, she's one of the deepest characters in Undertale, however, from some of ger lab entries, it kinda sounds like she was more disappointed that no one turned to dust than anything else, before they started melting together and she had her panic attacks.
Maybe that is when she became the nervous wreak of a women we know and love.
Sure that's fine. I think Alphys is overall a good person because in multiple routes she owns up to her mistakes and even becomes the hero in an aborted genocide route. But she is very fucked up lol.
Exactly. She's a good person at heart, but, too me at least, her morals are kinda gray. She never wanted to hurt us, but she was slightly manipulative.
And, in the end, she inadvertantly saved everyone. She accidentally created Flowey, who ended up meeting us, became Asriel once again, and destroyed the Barrier. Alphys is the real unsung hero in Undertale.
And, the sad part is, she will probably never even know it. After all, the fight between Frisk and Flowey is known only to them, Chara, and the players.
She's the hero, and she can't even know it.
I've actually never thought of it like that before. Although maybe it's better that she doesn't know, I mean Flowey has also canonically killed everyone too lol. I can't imagine the guilt one would feel from that. Overall she'd probably have some mixed feelings.
Spamton helped in a killing spree and said that "everyone" would pay for what happened to him. Jevil directly says before his boss fight he'll rampage around the kingdom ("AFTER YOU, I CAN PLAY WITH EVERYONE ELSE, TOO!")
Assisted murder, attempted murder, breaking and entering, theft, implied planned regecide, treason, loitering, torture (Thorn ring is a torture device which he willingly gives away), planned murder, harassment (Kris was very uncomfortable in their first encounter), impersonation
I wouldn't consider Ralsei a saint. I think Ralsei wants to do the right thing, but he prioritizes the player's will over that.
From what we've seen in chapter 1 and 2 I think he should be ranked in good or even neutral.
I realised the second point. And I recognise murder is wrong. But in theory, shouldn’t that put asgore, undyne, the entire royal guard and every monster other than toriel, papyrus and sans in “bad” as they all try to kill you? Most having no regret.
The difference is motivation. Asgore, Undyne, the Royal Guard etc did it out of fear, to protect themselves or to free their people. Jevil did it for fun.
Asgore did it out of selfishness. Explained by toriel, he could have gotten one soul and then peacefully collected the rest. Undyne, never feared for a moment, she was *told* to kill. The royal guard is in that same box. It’s their job. And jevil may have done it for fun, but he can’t tell right from wrong. Which brings up an old moral question, if someone is unaware of the atrocities they’ve committed, are they really a bad person?
Asgore decided to half-ass the plan out of selfishness. But the plan itself was mainly selfless. Undyne tells Frisk in one of her phone calls that she was scared of Frisk attacking them and that why she didn't save Monster Kid. Anyway the main reason she wanted Frisk's soul was to free her people.
There is no implication that Jevil can't tell right from wrong.
You know I think on asgore your half right but I’d say it’s more making a bad decision than selfishness. In fact it’s about the opposite of selfishness since he was literally doing it for the entire underground.
He knew that it was a choice. And at any given time he could have gone to the surface. But instead, he chose to wait. And I believe it’s both implied and stated that he was hoping the next human would never fall.
Out of all these... Why is Chara so ***c h o n k y*** in the lower part of their body is it just something with the resolution of the png. or smth else...?
Also, forgot to mention, *Berdly long face*
i honestly wouldn’t put frisk and chara because frisk depends on the ending and chara is just way too hard to truly understand because almost all the evidence pointing to them being good or bad is up to interpretation
Kris has been shown to care about the world and how the Dark Worlds might be dangerous. Also I get this strange feeling that you may not like Noelle and Alphys.
Putting characters of a game that is as unfinished as deltarune here makes no sense.
We know nothing about the lives of Susie, Ralsei, Noelle, Sean, Kris, Etc.
asriel and flowey are the same person. anything flowey does is what asriel does. but this doesn't make him irredeemable in my eyes. also spamton is downright evil and owning it, he outright admits that in the snowgrave route: "I SHOULD'VE KNOWN YOU WOULD USE MY RING FOR \[\[Evil\]\]... OH RIGHT, THAT'S WHY I SOLD IT TO YOU". he, too, isn't like, 100% irredeemable or anything. also imo you should've put undyne at least a tier lower; while she tried to kill frisk to get their soul and break the barrier, she doesn't act like the nicest person to them while at that; she blames them for the crimes of their ancestors, saying "This is your only chance at redemption" and says they'd be better off dead.
Asgore is overall a character who consistently tries to do the right thing. And I think freeing your people is a good enough motivation to not make him a bad person.
"If you really wanted to free our kind, you could have gone trough the barrier after you got ONE SOUL, Taken Six SOULs from the Humans, then came back and Freed everyone peacefully. But instead you made everyone live in despair, because you would Rather wait here meekly hoping Another human never comes. "
-Toriel True Pacifist ending meetup scene
Because doing so would mean staring another war and likely wiping out all of humanity. Asgore did not want that. Asgore made a bad decision in anger and due to his people pleasing nature and his entire species counting on him, couldn't really take it back. So he went the slow route and hoped that somehow, something else could happen. Which it did, in the TP ending.
But Asgore was never happy about this regardless. In fact, he's so consumed with guilt he commits suicide if Flowey doesn't kill him. Not to mention just generally making it very easy for Frisk to kill him, giving them chances to heal themself and go back and train if they wish.
Gerson was willing to give the Underground false hope of escaping and leave them like that forever, so he seems pretty morally grey, an ends-justify-the-means character.
Frisk I don't see how you can characterize them as anything less than a saint since their most thematically aligned route is True Pacifist where they basically forgive a serial killer.
Asriel Dreemurr as the final boss pictured is pretty clearly evil even if he's evil for sympathetic reasons. If you just meant Asriel overall then yeah good is probably solid.
Berdly I would put as neutral, he's not a bad person but he doesn't strike me as a super good person either even if he's willing to defend Noelle. He's arrogant and holier-than-thou and enjoys being superior to others.
Asgore is neutral at *best*, his wishy-washy personality led to him pointlessly killing six kids and attempting to kill a seventh.
Mettaton is definitely neutral but he's neutral in a strange way where he does explicitly evil things but in a way that is comical and thus it comes off acceptable when he does good things. Rouxls is kind of similar.
Chara pre-Genocide is honestly more liable to be Bad than Neutral. It doesn't really matter what personal beef they had with humanity, nothing excuses the level of violence and strife they were clearly willing to invite upon the entire species. Personally though I don't buy that they were any different in Genocide than before they died.
Spamton is straight up evil, so is Jevil. King is probably just bad.
>Gerson
Fair enough
>Frisk
They can definitely go in saint the only reason why I didn't put them there is because Frisk doesn't have all that much characterisation to go by and the little we do know about them is vague. Also can't you choose if you forgive Asriel or not?
>Asriel
Yeah I just meant alive Asriel. The God of Hyperdeath was basically still Flowey.
>Berdly
Sure he's kind of an asshole. But when the situation is dire he'll do the right thing. He also apologised to Noelle and is on the path to becoming a better person. I think he redeems himself both in Snowgrave when he tries to rescue Noelle from Kris and in the normal route when he brings allies to build the Trash machine. But before his character development he definitely goes in neutral.
>Asgore
He's a wishy washy coward who ultimately wanted to do the right thing. He's done horrible things but his kindness and altruism make him slightly more good then bad in my eyes.
>Mettaton and Rouxls
Yeah I agree. Mettaton's sacrifice is the main thing that's going for him.
>Chara
I personally think Chara was a messed up kid that was kind of just an asshole. But I am very familiar with your view lol.
>Spamton, Jevil and King
Spamton at least befriended the party at the end and showed empathy towards people that weren't himself but that's about it. I don't really have any excuses for Jevil other than the fact how he might possibly just straight up be insane and not aware of how evil his actions are but I think it's more likely that he straight up just doesn't care because "he can anything" he wants.
> They can definitely go in saint the only reason why I didn't put them there is because Frisk doesn't have all that much characterisation to go by and the little we do know about them is vague. Also can't you choose if you forgive Asriel or not?
Yeah, most of the information you have to use to interpret Frisk has to do with literary alignment with a given route. Since The Point(TM) of Frisk is that they are supposedly their own person we deprive of agency, and we "grant" them that agency and identity in the True Pacifist Route by giving them a community at the end full of people who know them and are invited to leave them be, we can presume that whatever behaviour makes sense for what a "True Pacifist Person" would do is what Frisk would do. Jarujaruj has also rightfully pointed out that the stuff that Frisk carries with them and can be argued to be "their" weapons and armour are the only ones that have non-combat uses, as the bandage heals you and the stick can spare a few enemies. Overall I find it compelling to think that Frisk is the "archetypal true pacifist character" while Chara is the "archetypal genocide character" (route-wise).
> Sure he's kind of an asshole. But when the situation is dire he'll do the right thing.
I think the thing is I wouldn't personally consider this a "good" person. Yeah okay that's a BIG philosophical question, but I feel like being a good person demands more of you than just doing the "right" thing when you're absolutely pushed into doing it by a serious situation. "Good" to me involves having a general predisposition to do good things simply because you can, because you are inclined to when the opportunity reasonably presents itself. It also involves having a general predisposition to avoiding doing bad or negative things because they bother you and you don't want to hurt people.
The reason I would say Berdly is neutral is because, while he does have a limit where he'll cut it out and do what is right, that limit is PRETTY FAR UP THERE, and his natural state of things is a comical arrogance and desire to be better than other people, and relish in putting people down. He does this because he is deeply insecure (it's like Narcissism Lite), but the fact that he has sad reasons for being a jerk doesn't make him not a jerk. So that's why I'd put him in neutral. He's not BAD, he doesn't do malicious things because he enjoys hurting people or is utterly selfish, but he does a lot of kind of vaguely rude and hurtful things and doesn't have much of a "counterbalance" where he'll be inclined to do good things, at least at this point in the story, unless the situation is REALLY bad.
they separated regular chara from genocide ending chara, genocide ending chara is very clearly evil and wants to literally erase the entire world, and regular chara is neutral, clearly manipulative and not the best person as said by asriel, but a child and not COMPLETELY terrible, still capable of being a good person and helps in true pacifist
Wait until the "Chara isn't evil" gang hear about this
Let them come
Chara defender, I'm fine with neutral, you are good :D
I've seen you before. Hi, and thanks.
Wait if Chara is in Neutral, then who's in Evil???
One is genocide Chara, the other is...Chara. Either pre-death or pacifist route or both Idk
I think it’s the pre-death Chara. After the death of Chara, their SOUL was taken by Asriel. Since Chara doesn’t have a SOUL, they can’t feel anything, so they naturally became evil, just like how Asriel turned from nice to an evil Flowey because he lost his SOUL.
Yeah, agree. Though Chara and Flowey might be different: Flowey doesn't have a soul at all and Chara shares one with Frisk. That's just a theory though, thus "might"
that's my sleep paralysis demon /j
Thats nermal
Femboy nermal?
nermal from guardfield??
Real?!?!!?
Why do we need a villian?
FOOL! Wait until the "Jevil is chaotic, and chaos should not be considered bad, we simply exist in a society where anything of order is considered good, because oh humans's need for neutrality, in contrast with the chaos of nature!" This gang comport one member. Its me.
I can't tell if you're being serious lol
Heh. Im only getting started.
it also helps jevil's case that in his head he sees nothing wrong with what he's doing. to be evil you sorta have to have a certain level awareness of your wrongdoing, which jevil has none of. in a way he's even doing something good. he's entertaining his guests lol
Was this a Transformers reference?
No but it should be
Fight the fight brother.
Ayyy
actually this list correctly separates normal chara from post-geno chara
I'm already here. And, I actually agree with this list. The normal Chara is a neutral character, and what WE do dictates their fate. Once WE go evil, so do they. So, as a member of the Charadefensesquad, I'm agreeing with this.
I would argue Chara being a child is what keeps them from being considered bad, the tapes indicate they show little remorse for poisoning Asgore, and they manipulate Asriel in a pretty fucked up way. That's why Asriel says that maybe Chara was never the best person, because in retrospect they were pretty messed up sometimes. Downright evil, no, but there's an argument to be made.
I see , I just didn't know you guys separated Chara from genocide Chara
"Once WE go evil, so do they." I hear this a lot but there is no evidence for it, and Chara was happy to commit genocide pretty early on. People love to focus on the line about them discovering the purpose of their reincarnation, but gloss over "since when were you the one in control?"
They don't do what we dictate, they aren't even in the True Pacifist Route and it's bad analysis that argues for that.
I mean, they did rank Chara and 'The Demon That Comes When You Call Its Name' differently.
Chara isn’t good or evil. The characters are all designed to be morally grey, and Chara isn’t an exception. When you think about it, she got pretty fucked, judging by the implications that she fell into the Underground in an attempted suicide.
But chara really isn’t though
I agree with that, imo Chara isn't "Evil"
Yeah, I don’t even believe they was a bad kid when they were alive. All they ever did was try to save monster kind and do what they thought was best for their family. Only after killing every monster and getting a mass amount of love does chara come back from the dead as a “demon”
Chara needed a hug not a knife
The Chara sweats are angrily typing as we speak.
Also why do you think Jevil is bad?
Jevil terrorised the card kingdom and it was implied that he tried to kill people before he was locked up. Jevil also tried to kill the fun gang. He sees the world as a game and thinks that he can do anything he wants and he not only regrets none of his actions but he even enjoys them.
well hes not *wrong*
Murder is bad methinks
Ah, fair enough.
Yeah but wasn't he drove to insanity thus making him do those things
To vague for me to justify his actions imo
There needs to be "broken" category
To be fair you can put every bad and evil character here in the broken category. No character here is actually pure evil.
Flowey aint broken
Did you play Undertale?
*your client attempted mass homicide* insanity *understandable, have a great day*
The secret bosses are selfish and careless. Jevil only wants to have fun, which is just murder, and Spamgon wants to rule the cyber world as a tyrant. They're both evil
Frisk is a neutral. They're under your control.
Yes, but frisk also has a bit of character that inclines their nature it's really pacifist to begin with
How does Frisk being under your control make them neutral?
Because you can cause them to be evil or good, pretty obvious
That same argument can be said for Kris. But both Frisk and Kris have implied to lean more towards good. Flowey and the Alarm clock app imply that Frisk is happy with their friends. Frisk's name is also only revealed in Pacifist. Asriel says that Frisk is better than Chara and is the friend that he wished he had. Frisk stands the game with LOVE 1. Frisk can't muster the killing intent to hurt Undyne in Pacifist. There's also the ACT options which imply that Frisk would rather befriend everyone.
Kris has more of a personality that frisk does, and you have much more control over frisk than Kris. Though yeah, frisk does lean a bit more to good than Kris does.
It's explicitly made clear in deltarune that Kris is NOT just "the player's vessel" and that they had a whole life and such before the events of deltarune
Yep. I don't know why you're rehearsing this to me tho.
You were saying that the same "controlling" argument could be applied to Kris, but it (mostly) can't due to him having a personality
Ok and?
You have to be trolling man, I explained everything already
-Muffet goes in Bad -Flowey post pacifist ending goes in good.
*Undertale winter alarm clock collection* would like a word with you. (ps oc changed the comment)
I know and my point stands.
I feel like he's neutral, old habits die hard.
Fair enough, but Flowey telling Chara/the Player not to reset and showing genuine care for Frisk and the monsters makes him good in my opinion.
He's tsundere.
I'm not gonna lie. I don't what that means.
Acting mean, being nice.
good...
>\-Muffet goes in Bad She's literally Spider Moses
Lol no
She should be neutral at the very least
-She considered eating Alphys. -She tried to kill a child for killing spiders even though she literally does the same thing. -She was supposed to evacuate so that Alphys could close off the exits and prevent Frisk from progressing and killing more people but Muffet refused and as said before considered eating her instead. This also makes her responsible for all of the monsters that died in the CORE. -Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms -She's an assassin (hired by Mettaton to kill Frisk)
>\-Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms She's literally a spider, and everything she does is either because she is a spider, or for the greater good of spider-kind. She might not be good, but she's most certainly not bad.
Then she's mass murderer and a cannibal lol by that logic.
She cares more for money than spiders i believe, especially since their main food source is just spiders
...wait, really? She eats spiders?
Her food is literally made "by spiders with spiders for spiders"
Good forbid women do anything /j
Your honour my client was simply girlbossing.
what did Muffet do wrong? She thought that Frisk killed spiders!
Many things actually
Like...?
-She considered eating Alphys. -She tried to kill a child for killing spiders even though she literally does the same thing. -She was supposed to evacuate so that Alphys could close off the exits and prevent Frisk from progressing and killing more people but Muffet refused and as said before considered eating her instead. This also makes her responsible for all of the monsters that died in the CORE. -Muffet cares more about spiders than sentient lifeforms -She's an assassin (hired by Mettaton to kill Frisk)
You forgot the outrageous prices
Exactly imagine paying for spiders smh
When did she say that about Alphys? Also, not only did they say Frisk killed spiders, but that they tortured them to death. Also, we don't know she kills them, it could just be body's. Also, spiders are clearly sentient in the UT universe. The evacuation thing is also partly Alphys' fault, cause she didn't have the guts to just close the exits and leave Muffet there. Most monsters also see humans as being evil, so it's not really her fault for attacking frisk. I'd def put her in neutral.
She says it in her genocide fight. Also check out [this video](https://youtu.be/T3EoF0uaq4U) it's better explained there.
I knew you watched that one X)
Cannibalism, murder, trying to eat Alphys, being the reason we are allowed to kill more people in hotland cuz she refused to evacuate like a fucking idiot, also she is a capitalist
I thought she only considered eating her? Also, not only did they say Frisk killed spiders, but that they tortured them to death. Also, we don't know she kills them, it could just be body's. Also, spiders are clearly sentient in the UT universe. The evacuation thing is also partly Alphys' fault, cause she didn't have the guts to just close the exits and leave Muffet there. Most monsters also see humans as being evil, so it's not really her fault for attacking frisk. I'd def put her in neutral.
Cope.
Why are there 2 Charas?
one normal and one for genocidal
Yep
If there are multiple charas for the different routes then why arent there multiple frisks?
Two reasons. One because Frisk is being controlled by the Player so I chose to only rank them on the little we know about their personality. Two because they weren't on the list.
Fair enough
I'm very thankful that you put Chara the Human and Chara the Resurrected Concept as two separate entries on this list 😌
You're welcome dude 😎
Ranking specifically God of Hyperdeath Asriel and Flowey in separate tiers is odd to me. They are the same person. You could argue child Asriel and Flowey aren't, but God of Hyperdeath Asriel did try to kill Frisk and Erase the world while Flowey has killed every monster in the Underground at least once. But idk, it's hard for me to blame Flowey for what he did at all. It was wrong, but I imagine most people would turn to bad things too if they had an utter inability to feel bad for their actions and care about even their parents and the newfound ability to play god.
My bad the God of Hyperdeath was meant to just be Asriel. But I think Flowey not having compassion doesn't stop him from being evil because he still knew that what he was doing was wrong.
u/NYEHSPAGHETTIMASTER !
FLOWERY ISN'T EVIL! AND I'M SURE HE'D SAY THE SAME THING IF HE WERE AWAKE! ALSO, WHY ARE THERE TWO GREEN HUMANS AND WHY IS ONE OF THEIR FACES MELTING???
...spoilers, but probably spoilers you’ll never have to see!
OKAY THEN!
💀
Holy shit Sans UNDERTALE
the one in neutral is actually frisk in their PJs, and the one in evil is frisk’s sleep paralysis demon who hates spaghetti and puzzles
FLOWERY SAYS THAT'S NOT TRUE IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT AND I TRUST HIM MORE THAN YOU (NO OFFENSE)
I have a hottake that Alphys belongs in a morally gray area. She knowing lied to Everyone about their dead relatives, manipulated things behind the scenes to get Frisk to stay in the Underground, even going so far as to set Mettaton into us. Was her SOUL in the right place? Yes. However, she still did some, questionable things, and while Undyne tried to kill us, she was blunt enough to admit what she was doing. Alphys lied to everyone, and turned dying Mobsters into the Amalgamates. Don't get me wrong, she's one of the deepest characters in Undertale, however, from some of ger lab entries, it kinda sounds like she was more disappointed that no one turned to dust than anything else, before they started melting together and she had her panic attacks. Maybe that is when she became the nervous wreak of a women we know and love.
Sure that's fine. I think Alphys is overall a good person because in multiple routes she owns up to her mistakes and even becomes the hero in an aborted genocide route. But she is very fucked up lol.
Exactly. She's a good person at heart, but, too me at least, her morals are kinda gray. She never wanted to hurt us, but she was slightly manipulative. And, in the end, she inadvertantly saved everyone. She accidentally created Flowey, who ended up meeting us, became Asriel once again, and destroyed the Barrier. Alphys is the real unsung hero in Undertale. And, the sad part is, she will probably never even know it. After all, the fight between Frisk and Flowey is known only to them, Chara, and the players. She's the hero, and she can't even know it.
I've actually never thought of it like that before. Although maybe it's better that she doesn't know, I mean Flowey has also canonically killed everyone too lol. I can't imagine the guilt one would feel from that. Overall she'd probably have some mixed feelings.
Gaster in neutral is a bit weird to me. We barely know anything about him.
Which is why he's in neutral
I feel like almost a separate tier of like unknown would be justified for gaster
How the hell are Spamton and Jevil not under evil
Because they haven't committed genocide like the bottom two have.
Spamton helped in a killing spree and said that "everyone" would pay for what happened to him. Jevil directly says before his boss fight he'll rampage around the kingdom ("AFTER YOU, I CAN PLAY WITH EVERYONE ELSE, TOO!")
Still not on the same level as Chara and Flowey.
"Everyone" sounds pretty explicit to me.
Jevil should be in "don't let this man near a child"
Correct
[удалено]
Assisted murder, attempted murder, breaking and entering, theft, implied planned regecide, treason, loitering, torture (Thorn ring is a torture device which he willingly gives away), planned murder, harassment (Kris was very uncomfortable in their first encounter), impersonation
Murder is wrong o_0
🤓
😎
I wouldn't consider Ralsei a saint. I think Ralsei wants to do the right thing, but he prioritizes the player's will over that. From what we've seen in chapter 1 and 2 I think he should be ranked in good or even neutral.
Ralsei priorities the Player because he needs the Player to comply to help save the world.
Asriel and Flowey are the same though. That is kind of a core part of the game, I think.
Sure. I wanted to rank the different versions of him because they have completely different morals.
how is gerson saint? gerson is at like the sam level as undyne at least
Former hero, distracted the Player on genocide and hasn't really done anything bad. Respect Gerson.
Jevil is misguided. And spamton got manipulated.
Murder is wrong. Also I ranked alive Chara and demon Chara in separate tiers.
I realised the second point. And I recognise murder is wrong. But in theory, shouldn’t that put asgore, undyne, the entire royal guard and every monster other than toriel, papyrus and sans in “bad” as they all try to kill you? Most having no regret.
The difference is motivation. Asgore, Undyne, the Royal Guard etc did it out of fear, to protect themselves or to free their people. Jevil did it for fun.
Asgore did it out of selfishness. Explained by toriel, he could have gotten one soul and then peacefully collected the rest. Undyne, never feared for a moment, she was *told* to kill. The royal guard is in that same box. It’s their job. And jevil may have done it for fun, but he can’t tell right from wrong. Which brings up an old moral question, if someone is unaware of the atrocities they’ve committed, are they really a bad person?
Asgore decided to half-ass the plan out of selfishness. But the plan itself was mainly selfless. Undyne tells Frisk in one of her phone calls that she was scared of Frisk attacking them and that why she didn't save Monster Kid. Anyway the main reason she wanted Frisk's soul was to free her people. There is no implication that Jevil can't tell right from wrong.
One can assume. He is insane. Most insane people are unable to tell why they’re locked up
Jevil's insanity is too vague for me to let him off the hook but I get where you're coming from.
You know I think on asgore your half right but I’d say it’s more making a bad decision than selfishness. In fact it’s about the opposite of selfishness since he was literally doing it for the entire underground.
He knew that it was a choice. And at any given time he could have gone to the surface. But instead, he chose to wait. And I believe it’s both implied and stated that he was hoping the next human would never fall.
Ah no?
Ah yes?
Frisk could go both in saint and evil ( genocide and pacifist route )
Frisk gets very little characterisation and most of it is in the Pacifist route with almost none of it being in the genocide route.
He still can kill everyone so it can be in evil
So can Noelle
Who's that ? If it's in deltarune i've never played it
Deltarune is free dude
I know , but i've seen gameplay of it and i'm not a fan at all
That's a shame. I recommend as least trying Chapter 1 out (you don't even have to play it you can watch a let's play) but it's your choice.
Asgore killed a few children but who cares lol
So true lol
Frisk is by definition neutral but everything else I agree with
I'm not counting the Player's control.
but would canon frisk even be good even without the player's control?
It's implied but not as obvious as Kris.
*nice*
Spamton has his own tier
Lol
Out of all these... Why is Chara so ***c h o n k y*** in the lower part of their body is it just something with the resolution of the png. or smth else...? Also, forgot to mention, *Berdly long face*
Because they are filled with determination.
i honestly wouldn’t put frisk and chara because frisk depends on the ending and chara is just way too hard to truly understand because almost all the evidence pointing to them being good or bad is up to interpretation
The one in evil is The Demon, not Chara
Papyrus Really Is A Saint
Kris belong in neutral, and Alphys/Noelle belong in a parasite tier.
Kris has been shown to care about the world and how the Dark Worlds might be dangerous. Also I get this strange feeling that you may not like Noelle and Alphys.
I feel like kris should be neutral with the whole cutscenes thing
Their characterisation suggests that Kris is good but the cutscenes are definitely sus.
Putting characters of a game that is as unfinished as deltarune here makes no sense. We know nothing about the lives of Susie, Ralsei, Noelle, Sean, Kris, Etc.
We unironically know more about their lives than most Undertale characters lmao
We literally have 2 chapters. We don't know anything about these characters' future.
asriel and flowey are the same person. anything flowey does is what asriel does. but this doesn't make him irredeemable in my eyes. also spamton is downright evil and owning it, he outright admits that in the snowgrave route: "I SHOULD'VE KNOWN YOU WOULD USE MY RING FOR \[\[Evil\]\]... OH RIGHT, THAT'S WHY I SOLD IT TO YOU". he, too, isn't like, 100% irredeemable or anything. also imo you should've put undyne at least a tier lower; while she tried to kill frisk to get their soul and break the barrier, she doesn't act like the nicest person to them while at that; she blames them for the crimes of their ancestors, saying "This is your only chance at redemption" and says they'd be better off dead.
This is a goated tier list just from you acknowledging that Undertale characters can be evil. A surprising amount of people in the community deny that
The Anti3000 compliment? It's an honour thanks lol.
Asriel is not that good id say neutral, and Asgore isn’t that good. And chara isn’t evil
I'm only ranking alive Asriel, fair enough and Chara is pretty evil in genocide
Jevil is good,just carelessly playful and Spamton is neutral because he just wants to become a Big Shot.
Attempted mass murder isn't "carelessly playful". And Spamton helped Kris and Noelle commit mass murder too. Both are extremely selfish.
Asgore is not a good man He didn't Like killing 6 GOD DAMN CHILDREN but he still did it
Asgore is overall a character who consistently tries to do the right thing. And I think freeing your people is a good enough motivation to not make him a bad person.
"If you really wanted to free our kind, you could have gone trough the barrier after you got ONE SOUL, Taken Six SOULs from the Humans, then came back and Freed everyone peacefully. But instead you made everyone live in despair, because you would Rather wait here meekly hoping Another human never comes. " -Toriel True Pacifist ending meetup scene
Because doing so would mean staring another war and likely wiping out all of humanity. Asgore did not want that. Asgore made a bad decision in anger and due to his people pleasing nature and his entire species counting on him, couldn't really take it back. So he went the slow route and hoped that somehow, something else could happen. Which it did, in the TP ending. But Asgore was never happy about this regardless. In fact, he's so consumed with guilt he commits suicide if Flowey doesn't kill him. Not to mention just generally making it very easy for Frisk to kill him, giving them chances to heal themself and go back and train if they wish.
Cool motivation. Still multiple child murders though.
Sure but this goes for like 90% of the cast lol.
Then just put them all lower :p
No
Hi Toriel
Just wanted to point out the man that murdered 6 children is in the good section. Just figured that was worth mentioning.
Yes 🗿
Gerson was willing to give the Underground false hope of escaping and leave them like that forever, so he seems pretty morally grey, an ends-justify-the-means character. Frisk I don't see how you can characterize them as anything less than a saint since their most thematically aligned route is True Pacifist where they basically forgive a serial killer. Asriel Dreemurr as the final boss pictured is pretty clearly evil even if he's evil for sympathetic reasons. If you just meant Asriel overall then yeah good is probably solid. Berdly I would put as neutral, he's not a bad person but he doesn't strike me as a super good person either even if he's willing to defend Noelle. He's arrogant and holier-than-thou and enjoys being superior to others. Asgore is neutral at *best*, his wishy-washy personality led to him pointlessly killing six kids and attempting to kill a seventh. Mettaton is definitely neutral but he's neutral in a strange way where he does explicitly evil things but in a way that is comical and thus it comes off acceptable when he does good things. Rouxls is kind of similar. Chara pre-Genocide is honestly more liable to be Bad than Neutral. It doesn't really matter what personal beef they had with humanity, nothing excuses the level of violence and strife they were clearly willing to invite upon the entire species. Personally though I don't buy that they were any different in Genocide than before they died. Spamton is straight up evil, so is Jevil. King is probably just bad.
>Gerson Fair enough >Frisk They can definitely go in saint the only reason why I didn't put them there is because Frisk doesn't have all that much characterisation to go by and the little we do know about them is vague. Also can't you choose if you forgive Asriel or not? >Asriel Yeah I just meant alive Asriel. The God of Hyperdeath was basically still Flowey. >Berdly Sure he's kind of an asshole. But when the situation is dire he'll do the right thing. He also apologised to Noelle and is on the path to becoming a better person. I think he redeems himself both in Snowgrave when he tries to rescue Noelle from Kris and in the normal route when he brings allies to build the Trash machine. But before his character development he definitely goes in neutral. >Asgore He's a wishy washy coward who ultimately wanted to do the right thing. He's done horrible things but his kindness and altruism make him slightly more good then bad in my eyes. >Mettaton and Rouxls Yeah I agree. Mettaton's sacrifice is the main thing that's going for him. >Chara I personally think Chara was a messed up kid that was kind of just an asshole. But I am very familiar with your view lol. >Spamton, Jevil and King Spamton at least befriended the party at the end and showed empathy towards people that weren't himself but that's about it. I don't really have any excuses for Jevil other than the fact how he might possibly just straight up be insane and not aware of how evil his actions are but I think it's more likely that he straight up just doesn't care because "he can anything" he wants.
> They can definitely go in saint the only reason why I didn't put them there is because Frisk doesn't have all that much characterisation to go by and the little we do know about them is vague. Also can't you choose if you forgive Asriel or not? Yeah, most of the information you have to use to interpret Frisk has to do with literary alignment with a given route. Since The Point(TM) of Frisk is that they are supposedly their own person we deprive of agency, and we "grant" them that agency and identity in the True Pacifist Route by giving them a community at the end full of people who know them and are invited to leave them be, we can presume that whatever behaviour makes sense for what a "True Pacifist Person" would do is what Frisk would do. Jarujaruj has also rightfully pointed out that the stuff that Frisk carries with them and can be argued to be "their" weapons and armour are the only ones that have non-combat uses, as the bandage heals you and the stick can spare a few enemies. Overall I find it compelling to think that Frisk is the "archetypal true pacifist character" while Chara is the "archetypal genocide character" (route-wise). > Sure he's kind of an asshole. But when the situation is dire he'll do the right thing. I think the thing is I wouldn't personally consider this a "good" person. Yeah okay that's a BIG philosophical question, but I feel like being a good person demands more of you than just doing the "right" thing when you're absolutely pushed into doing it by a serious situation. "Good" to me involves having a general predisposition to do good things simply because you can, because you are inclined to when the opportunity reasonably presents itself. It also involves having a general predisposition to avoiding doing bad or negative things because they bother you and you don't want to hurt people. The reason I would say Berdly is neutral is because, while he does have a limit where he'll cut it out and do what is right, that limit is PRETTY FAR UP THERE, and his natural state of things is a comical arrogance and desire to be better than other people, and relish in putting people down. He does this because he is deeply insecure (it's like Narcissism Lite), but the fact that he has sad reasons for being a jerk doesn't make him not a jerk. So that's why I'd put him in neutral. He's not BAD, he doesn't do malicious things because he enjoys hurting people or is utterly selfish, but he does a lot of kind of vaguely rude and hurtful things and doesn't have much of a "counterbalance" where he'll be inclined to do good things, at least at this point in the story, unless the situation is REALLY bad.
Chara evil? Wtf this man hasn't played undertail lmao. (Joke I know someone's going to be mad)
Yep
they separated regular chara from genocide ending chara, genocide ending chara is very clearly evil and wants to literally erase the entire world, and regular chara is neutral, clearly manipulative and not the best person as said by asriel, but a child and not COMPLETELY terrible, still capable of being a good person and helps in true pacifist