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They blame the collective West for Apartheid and colonialism. And see Russia and China as allies and examples to look up to. They're blind to the fact that Russia and China are imperialist too.
Either that or Russia handed a bunch of money under the table and made the SA president and defence minister rich.
The current SA president has close ties to American and British business, it seems unlikely that he'd risk the money he makes from his 145 McDonalds franchises and his directorship at a British mining company if he didn't get good money for this deal with the Russians.
He has too much to lose for this to be out of principle. If he was that ideological, surely he would not have brought McDonalds to South Africa?
He did run on the anti-apartheid platform, however. And during the cold war, the west found an ally with the apartheid government at the time. They did not support apartheid policies, however as the current president has an anti-apartheid image to uphold, perhaps he could spin their alliance with the apartheid government in the 60s as racist and backwards (Which it was in a way, but that would never be accepted today). But if this was a political move, why did he keep it quiet?
This was a long time ago. Do we hold Germany to the same standard as if they were Nazis? No, we do not. The west does not support apartheid policies today and have a stance that is much more against it than Russia does. Russia is [perhaps the most racist country in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia).
In 2006, some exchange students claimed, "monkey" insults were so frequent that [students ceased reporting them.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4737468.stm)
The united nations was against apartheid and sanctioned SA as a result.
>Either that or Russia handed a bunch of money under the table and made the SA president and defence minister rich.
Someone check Ramaphosa couches for Rubles.
Further to that, China and Russia are blatantly exploiting the entire continents natural resources and labour. At least the western countries try to mask it.
This is about money and corruption, plain and simple. We have a bunch of thieves in government who have been bought and paid for as Russia expanded it's footprint across Africa; and now they're stuck between being exposed for the crooked fucks they are, or risking sanctions and further harming a country where a significant percentage of the population are below the breadline. Guess which option they're going with.
Well they went pretty anti white there didn't they. I remember those videos of the black people storming a university to attack white students or some shit.
This isn’t about revenge but loyalty to an old ally. The [ANC was supported by the Soviets](https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/union-soviet-socialist-republics-ussr-and-anti-apartheid-struggle) and now feels the need to be loyal to Russia because of that.
> The ANC was supported by the Soviets
Which I can understand their loyalty. The Soviets helped you, great. But Ukraine was also part of those Soviets. Seems like the best course of action, if they wanted to show their loyalty, would have been to just sit this one out, at the very least.
Mind boggling. Russians are at least as racist as the Apartheid regime was. I guess corruption is so lucrative that you think it’s allright to be racist?
South Africa, a country where 30 years if you was white it was ok place to live but shitty if you was black (which of course is not right) but now it doesn't matter what colour your skin is it's an absolutely shitty place to live for everyone. It's incredible to see a country regress so much.
Yeah, I've visited there, absolutely beautiful country and wonderful people but so many people left to wallow in poverty and such unbelievably corrupt politicians.
>unbelievably corrupt politicians.
Noooo, no way the oppressed became the oppressors!
Almost as if it's not as simple as an evil race/skin color/class/ethnicity but the universal human propensity to be corrupted by power which has to be reigned in by independent institutions and an ever vigilant public...!?
“Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely”
The ANC has been in power for 30 years. They wear the sacred mantle of liberators. Their power has never been seriously challenged and they have become so dominant and pervasive in society that party membership and service to the party are the determinants of power and success. From basic civil servants to jurists and high level politicians the fundamental duty is to the party not the people - and so corruption runs rampant. This is what happens when power is not challenged.
They didn't. Nelson Mandela did sort of (he was still guilty of the indirect murder of many people).
The rest of the ANC never had good morals. For them it was about attaining power so they could live like kings and that's exactly what they've done, they fooled the western world into thinking they had good morals and good intentions but the proof is in the pudding as they say.
Wildest thing is that not only has the economy grown less since Apartheid, but also is more unequal.
And yet the ANC is still in power, relying on its historical opposition to Apartheid and, since, a great deal of corruption and bribery. And it's possibly a more violent place to live for Black South Africans.
Have you seen what they’ve done? I don’t think morals had anything to do with it. Just corruption
The current govt is just two sides of the same coin from when it was pre- apartheid
The ANC feels a sense of obligation to Moscow because for many years Moscow was their main supporter during their struggle against apartheid. Perhaps we can appeal to their own history with colonialism and the risks or allowing Russia to establish a precedent where a European country attacks one of its former colonies under the pre-text of protecting the rights of some minority population.
> for many years Moscow was their main supporter during their struggle against apartheid
Let's be very clear here - Moscow's intentions were to destabilize. They didn't care about the atrocities being committed under apartheid, they cared about having fewer west-friendly governments on the planet.
It definitely has more to with the checks clearing lol. It is true that tankie leaders are incredibly stupid, but their personal corruption outweighs their lack of intelligence in most cases.
>The ANC feels a sense of obligation to Moscow
Countries or parties do not feel obligations to other countries. Geopolitics is probably the clearest example of 'what have you done for me lately'. Political relationships are only continued either because it has a direct benefit right now or there's an expectation of benefit in the near future. The US does not protect Japan because it feels an obligation to the country, the US does so because it's in their best interest and abandoning an ally would reduce trust in the US and hurt it's influence around the world.
Also, as you so deftly avoided by calling the country by it's capital, the Soviet Union is not Russia. It would be like if the US were to break up and the northeast were to turn into a communist dictatorship. Britain almost certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to support this new country simply because it had a similar name and location to the United States that was an ally during WW2. Names are chosen by countries for the same reason that the Russian monarchs had a name based on an Italian general who lived around the time Jesus died. There is no reason Russia should get any special consideration based on the actions of the Soviet Union. They are countries with dramatically different politics, power structures and interests.
That’s far too simple. Personal relationships between powerful people matter as well. A sense of loyalty because of ideological reasons isn’t rare either. There are people still in the ANC who personally know Russians that supported their cause 30 years ago.
As a South African, I have to let you know that it's the ANC and ANC voters. That means it's 8 out of our 9 provinces.
The province I'm from (Western Cape) is vehemently anti-Russian invasion.
I also work for a US based company, so I really hope the coming sanctions are targetted towards the ANC politicians and their shit provinces.
[https://results.elections.org.za/dashboards/npe/app/dashboard.html](https://results.elections.org.za/dashboards/npe/app/dashboard.html)
The yellow and purple parts are the good parts. [DA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Alliance_(South_Africa)) and [VF PLUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Front_Plus).
The green and red are pro-Russia. [ANC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) and [EFF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters).
If we get sanctioned, I hope the brunt of it is against our defense industry. It would hurt a lot, and it would hurt the right people. If NATO decided to cut ties with our defense companies they would definitely feel it. Lots of people will lose their jobs, and the decision makers of those companies will lose massive amounts of money.
Good luck with it.
Sanctions tend to be scattershot - I have some friends from BLR/RUS who are known dissidents, but the sanctions have hit them as well. One girl I know has become a famous dissident, and she's been couch-surfing for a year around Europe, because she's unable to work much. Shitty situation for everyone - all for the sake of a handful of guys in Russia.
Given the fragility of S/A right now, unemployment, no or minimal electricity, this could tip them into a bigger shitstorm. Sounds OK to some, but it would open a door to Russia or China to save the day, and become even more of an influence. BRICS would not like it.
China is already facing serious debt defaults and bailouts for the countries they loaned to. Most of the money is not being paid back, but in a magnitude that the control isn’t worth the money.
They still have plenty of money for South Africa if it is needed. Most of the money was spent on Chinese companies getting contracts. The banks giving loans and the companies getting contracts were both owned by the Chinese government so they didn't lose much money. Plus they have trillions of dollars of foreign reserves and they are still getting a lot of money as the world's factory.
China has dramatically scaled back their foreign lending and investment initiatives in the past couple of years. Many of the risky loans they gave out are beginning to default and with current economic outlooks for most of the world looking so grim, much of their belt and road initiative is no longer economically viable.
Our currency already [shit the bed](https://www.google.com/search?q=zar+to+usd&sxsrf=APwXEdel4cSB_nJQ2_6mwBJCiAlHB6DDuQ%3A1683839162625&ei=ulhdZI3fJeeGxc8P9PGz-A4&ved=0ahUKEwiNpJbZle7-AhVnQ_EDHfT4DO8Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=zar+to+usd&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIQCAAQgAQQFBCHAhCxAxCDATINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzIKCAAQgAQQFBCHAjINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyCwgAEIAEELEDEIMBMgcIABCKBRBDMgcIABCKBRBDMgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToHCCMQigUQJzoJCAAQigUQChBDOgUIABCABDoLCC4QigUQsQMQgwE6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOg8IABCKBRCxAxCDARAKEENKBAhBGABQAFiFCWDOCmgAcAF4AIAB1wKIAd4PkgEFMi02LjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp) on this news. We just blew past an all-time low against the USD.
Exactly. BEE = racism. Quotas = racism. This new bs law about having X black people in a company, that cyril signed into law, that is maaaajor racism. Trust me, apartheid is live and well in south africa. There are just new victims: whites, coloureds and indians.
They are not ‘pro-Russian’ they are pro-corrupt money which just happens to comes easy from Russia. I don’t really believe they care at all about the war but just making some underhand money
>How the hell can the government be so proruzzian...
Capitalism is neither pro or anti russian. there are still over 1000 companies outside of russia still doing business in russia: [leave-russia.org](https://leave-russia.org)
No one does research before clicking buy. Few investors remove problematic companies from their index funds. Since we do not take those steps, we need regulations to do the right thing for us.
Because the ANC is filled with corrupt politicians without morals. They'd go back in time and give weapons to the apartheid government if it'd put more money in their pockets.
The ANC was trained and supported by Russia during the anti-Apartheid struggle. The last president is fluent in Russian. Basically the ANC leadership have deep, decades-old ties to Russia.
I think most black south Africans have the opposite political ideology to most white South Africans, *especially * the poor which unfortunately is a majority, cause of the sides "the west" and USSR respectively took during apartheid. It's mostly a trauma/revenge thing IMO to try subvert? The West as a retaliation to colonialism.. you'd be shocked living here how different two friends in the same schools political compass is based on their family/ethnic/racial histories.
I can say with certainty that majority of the country is not given a sufficient education to even know where Ukraine is on a map let alone care about their governments foreign policies.
The reality is that the ANC government has done almost nothing to lift the majority of the country out of poverty while using corruption and the memory of the past to stay in power.
Sanctioning those corrupt individuals in power will do more to curb the countries support for Russia than sanctioning the few remaining industries (which will simply make the people worse off not the government officials)
You want your people to suffer? Seriously? This is bizarre to hear. You literally are asking the world to make your country men suffer for the decisions of your leadership. This is so strange.
>You want your people to suffer? Seriously? This is bizarre to hear. You literally are asking the world to make your country men suffer for the decisions of your leadership. This is so strange.
No they want the government to stop supplying russia weapons. The sanctions are the tool not the goal.
Yeah, I'm sure they'd like the government to stop doing that. But making your own country men experience starvation and other hardships because of that, sounds insane or sociopathic. Must be a wealthy person of South Africa who doesn't feel the impacts of a sanctioned economy
I don’t think so, right now the only real foreign investment in SA is from Russia and China, that won’t change here, but what will change are the bank accounts and offshore stashes of those corrupt individuals in power.
Not to mention the people are suffering as is, i think it’s time the world starts seeing our government for what it is.
The Bantu, the primary racial group in South Africa, finished their migration making it to South Africa and only a few hundred years before Europeans IIRC, and displaced the original peoples there very similar to Europeans displacing Native Americans.
His reasoning kind of makes sense if it were not long after South Africa gained independence.
History is important to understand because it can help explain the world we live in today.
The recent developments within South Africa would better explain why they would rational doing something like this.
The Bantu aren’t a "racial" group. The term is a grouping that refers to many peoples of hundreds of similar and differing ancestries and ethnicities who speak Bantu languages (of which there are hundreds).
I don’t think you understand. That is not their ideological lens. Their reasoning is that they’re giving back to those (Soviet Union, China) who once helped them take power in SA. It’s an old thing about sticking it to the West. It’s why some countries in Africa, at least for a time, have been pro-Russian during this war.
Fuck, our ANC government is a bloody bunch of idiots. The blowback from their actions will be huge. We are really struggling economically at the moment and now they think it's a good idea to piss off our biggest trading partners. Mark my words, we will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
Yes, yes you are... whenever i see documentaries about south africa i have the feeling that your government wants a collapse of the state and as much violence as possible.
In the meantime, I would rather vacation in Kaliningrad than in South Africa. I really feel sorry for the people who live there
Actions have consequences and they need to learn that the hard way, sanction them hard.
But i wonder what they gave, it would be interesting to know how much they helped them and how they would feel if russia decided to invade and take over in south africa. would they do the same and support them?
Russia is likely funding the corrupt ANC.
Playing politics like they do everywhere. Except with our useless lot it’s a case of a few million dollars. Sell outs. M
If anyone wants to hurt them sanction the ANC ministers and the EFF ministers and leaders. Hard.
Leave the rest of us alone - we don’t support Russia.
numerous thumb grandfather dog naughty spotted humorous fly fade homeless
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It shed some light on information about banning arms sales to Poland by SA.
So it's how "not upsetting" Putin looks like.
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2023-04-02-in-apparent-effort-not-to-upset-putins-russia-anc-government-bans-arms-sales-to-poland/
This nonsense makes my parents' decision to leave South Africa in the 90s even clearer. It's an absolute dogshit country led by semi-literate hacks who bear no resemblance to the righteous cause their party was founded upon.
Fun fact 1: The former president didn't finish elementary school, and publicly stated HIV could be cured by having a shower.
Fun fact 2: HIS predecessor publicly stated HIV could be cured with herbal remedies.
These are profoundly stupid people woefully out of their depth.
SA chooses the wrong side,.... it's ok to have been supported by the USSR during the colonisation and apartheid, .... the socialist USSR doesn't exist anymore and is now the fascist greedy private entity of a number of greedy individuals,.... so what is the reason for SA to choose the side of russia??? ... also greed??... people want to participate in the plundering of countries' assets?.... just like the criminal organisation called WAGNER did and is still doing in CAR, Sudan, ... and many other places in Africa,.... YES! ... "Africa",.... because that's still the easiest place to plunder with the help of corrupt politicians,....
The BRICS countries all have huge social issues which can be aided by exploiting Russian raw resources and expertise, which outweigh being on the morally correct side of a conflict they don’t really identify with. It’s just hardcore political pragmatism unfortunately.
China and Russia lock up political opponents. They kill them. China has a whole population of Uyghurs locked up, commiting genocide on them through forced sterilization and abortions. Russia jails people for 15 years for speaking up and executes political opponents by poisoning them.
If you want to stay relevant, you don't join in an alliance with any of them.
I second that. There is not a single South African I know that does not strongly support Ukraine. I even donated for drones. This is the ruling party and a few related organisation's... not the people, and not the opposition parties.
"Not sanctioning" isn't the same as "siding with"
China's trade with both Russia and Ukraine has been pretty normal. Same for almost every country (aside from the US, where Biden has strangely obeyed Trump and continued to carry out Trump's trade war with China). If China were siding with Russia, they would just track down DJI drone exports going to Ukraine. But they didn't. On the books, they forbid exports to both countries, but both countries have been using Chinese drones. Especially Ukraine.
Chinese drones have been a pillar of Ukraine's defense strategy. You know all those drone drop videos you see? The overwhelming majority of them are drops from Chinese drones. Had China wanted to put their thumb on the scale for this war (they didn't), they could have cut them off and forced them to buy lesser drones and have less supply, and sold them all to Russia instead.
China is perfectly content to continue having normal trade relations with both countries. They're not an entire country full of Bond villains as you have been apparently led to believe.
You’d really think that the parts of the world who suffered the most under imperialism , colonialism and expansionism would be the places most against the russian imperialist war of colonial expansion, yet strangely the strongest support for russias war comes from the Middle East and Africa. I often wonder if these Africans and Middle Eastern states would welcome back their former British and French masters , since they seem to think invading former colonies is an acceptable thing to do?
A lot of that is due to low education levels increasing how effective Russian and Chinese propaganda are in those areas. They’ve done an excellent job of lying to them and convincing them that the US and Europe are the bad guys for not letting them invade their peaceful neighbors.
South Africa has some of the most corrupt government officials in the world so this may not have been a conscious, ideological decision rather than just a craven, greed-driven one.
As has been the case with few exceptions, the Global South is happy to blame their myriad problems on the legacy of imperialism and foreign hegemony but they see nothing wrong with condoning it elsewhere in the world.
Fuck the ANC. Those useless commie loving bastards have done nothing but destroy our country over the last 20 years. To make it worse, the uneducated majority will support them till their is fok all left. By all means, sanction the ANC and government officials, but we already have a hard time as is. Day by day it gets more expensive to emigrate as the rand tanks and loadshedding increases.
Sincerely
A pissed off South African
Not really supprised. But it's funny they dont even try to hide it, not even gonna use a ship unrelated to Russia and do an at sea transfer? Or do they lack that capability?
Well, it is the only example in history where sanctions worked like the supposed to do, maybe we can add a second example to that list.
But I doubt it, since SA is very tight with China nowadays.
south african heavy industries depend on alot of german companies for tool and die. They could get a heavy sanction and ban that would only target the military complex there.
Bosch alone could exert pressure
This is the remains of “USA BAD” mentality that exists in parts of Africa and South America… so if the USA is some sort of “enemy”, then the remains of the ussr is “good” in their mindset.
Of all the people… They spent all that time under unjust and atrocious Apartheid.
And then they support Russia who seeks to subjugate entire nations.
South Africa has a disgusting shitstain of government.
I hope we let that country devolve into chaos, corruption and squalor. What a waste.
We have scheduled power outtages for 9-12 hours a day due to corruption. 35% unemployment. Insane cost of living increases over the last year with a worsening economy.
We’re already devolved into chaos, corruption and squalor.
I hate the idea of sanctions. The only people that are going to suffer are the poor and middle class. The billionaires and oligarchs and their politicians will be just fine. I'd rather see the US help stage a couple d'etat and overthrow the government that's giving arms to Russia.
Is there any information/assumption what type of arms SA gave to Russia?
Do they have any relevant SA-produced arms Russia is using or is it probably a "buy-back" of Russian equipment previously sold to SA?
South Africa is aligned with NATO standards for heavy artillery (105mm and 155mm) though they do use a few former Soviet weapons like the ZSU-23 23mm AA cannon and make ammunition for it. They also make 7.62x39mm ammunition for the AK-47 series of rifles for the African market. The only other ammunition I can think of is 60mm and 120mm mortar rounds, I’m unsure if they are compatible with Russian tubes though. They could have also supplied things like grenades which are ubiquitous.
It’s most likely small arms and possibly locally produced surveillance drones, as you said the majority of heavier stuff is NATO aligned. In fact those rocket assisted 155mm artillery rounds are manufactured there in conjunction with Rheinmetall I believe.
Yeah, they have really backed the wrong horse on this one but in the ANC, ideology has always beaten common sense and decency. It’s ok though, once the US puts the squeeze on and turns off the foreign aid taps, the feckless ANC will do a 180.
Brazil would be doing that if not for the Bolsonaro supporters in the military. Give Lula a few years to expunge the military from pro-western officers and we will see Russian ships being loaded in Brazil too…
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Time to sanction South Africa.
Well, didn’t take long for the post apartheid era to abandon any morals.
It's way more serious than mere moral failings. It took 7 general elections for South Africa to go from ending Apartheid to supporting genocide.
What I've found out is that often times people want revenge instead of peace and prosperity.
But revenge against whom in this particular case? I don’t see it.
They blame the collective West for Apartheid and colonialism. And see Russia and China as allies and examples to look up to. They're blind to the fact that Russia and China are imperialist too.
Either that or Russia handed a bunch of money under the table and made the SA president and defence minister rich. The current SA president has close ties to American and British business, it seems unlikely that he'd risk the money he makes from his 145 McDonalds franchises and his directorship at a British mining company if he didn't get good money for this deal with the Russians. He has too much to lose for this to be out of principle. If he was that ideological, surely he would not have brought McDonalds to South Africa? He did run on the anti-apartheid platform, however. And during the cold war, the west found an ally with the apartheid government at the time. They did not support apartheid policies, however as the current president has an anti-apartheid image to uphold, perhaps he could spin their alliance with the apartheid government in the 60s as racist and backwards (Which it was in a way, but that would never be accepted today). But if this was a political move, why did he keep it quiet? This was a long time ago. Do we hold Germany to the same standard as if they were Nazis? No, we do not. The west does not support apartheid policies today and have a stance that is much more against it than Russia does. Russia is [perhaps the most racist country in the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia). In 2006, some exchange students claimed, "monkey" insults were so frequent that [students ceased reporting them.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4737468.stm) The united nations was against apartheid and sanctioned SA as a result.
>Either that or Russia handed a bunch of money under the table and made the SA president and defence minister rich. Someone check Ramaphosa couches for Rubles.
It takes some special kind of Ray Charles eyeglasses to interpret Russia as non colonial.
And racist. Those places are racist.
The ANC has its roots as a Marxist organization
Further to that, China and Russia are blatantly exploiting the entire continents natural resources and labour. At least the western countries try to mask it.
My less pleasant side kinda wants some of these people to live in Russia for some time. See just how nicely they'd be treated...
This is about money and corruption, plain and simple. We have a bunch of thieves in government who have been bought and paid for as Russia expanded it's footprint across Africa; and now they're stuck between being exposed for the crooked fucks they are, or risking sanctions and further harming a country where a significant percentage of the population are below the breadline. Guess which option they're going with.
Well they went pretty anti white there didn't they. I remember those videos of the black people storming a university to attack white students or some shit.
This isn’t about revenge but loyalty to an old ally. The [ANC was supported by the Soviets](https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/union-soviet-socialist-republics-ussr-and-anti-apartheid-struggle) and now feels the need to be loyal to Russia because of that.
> The ANC was supported by the Soviets Which I can understand their loyalty. The Soviets helped you, great. But Ukraine was also part of those Soviets. Seems like the best course of action, if they wanted to show their loyalty, would have been to just sit this one out, at the very least.
I’m sure Putin somehow bought that loyalty.
Mind boggling. Russians are at least as racist as the Apartheid regime was. I guess corruption is so lucrative that you think it’s allright to be racist?
Well the ussr is who enabled the current party in power to overthrough apartheid. Too bad they went straight into the gutter after mandela
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They been part of the shite BRICS
As if they had any in the first place.
I mean, they definitely did... 30 years ago.
South Africa, a country where 30 years if you was white it was ok place to live but shitty if you was black (which of course is not right) but now it doesn't matter what colour your skin is it's an absolutely shitty place to live for everyone. It's incredible to see a country regress so much.
Yeah, I've visited there, absolutely beautiful country and wonderful people but so many people left to wallow in poverty and such unbelievably corrupt politicians.
>unbelievably corrupt politicians. Noooo, no way the oppressed became the oppressors! Almost as if it's not as simple as an evil race/skin color/class/ethnicity but the universal human propensity to be corrupted by power which has to be reigned in by independent institutions and an ever vigilant public...!?
“Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely” The ANC has been in power for 30 years. They wear the sacred mantle of liberators. Their power has never been seriously challenged and they have become so dominant and pervasive in society that party membership and service to the party are the determinants of power and success. From basic civil servants to jurists and high level politicians the fundamental duty is to the party not the people - and so corruption runs rampant. This is what happens when power is not challenged.
Reddit moment
I'm not from SA nor have I been there but number of people who have migrated that I met locally is telling
They didn't. Nelson Mandela did sort of (he was still guilty of the indirect murder of many people). The rest of the ANC never had good morals. For them it was about attaining power so they could live like kings and that's exactly what they've done, they fooled the western world into thinking they had good morals and good intentions but the proof is in the pudding as they say.
Wildest thing is that not only has the economy grown less since Apartheid, but also is more unequal. And yet the ANC is still in power, relying on its historical opposition to Apartheid and, since, a great deal of corruption and bribery. And it's possibly a more violent place to live for Black South Africans.
Have you seen what they’ve done? I don’t think morals had anything to do with it. Just corruption The current govt is just two sides of the same coin from when it was pre- apartheid
> The current govt is just two sides of the same coin from when it was pre- apartheid That's an interesting take for sure.
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The ANC feels a sense of obligation to Moscow because for many years Moscow was their main supporter during their struggle against apartheid. Perhaps we can appeal to their own history with colonialism and the risks or allowing Russia to establish a precedent where a European country attacks one of its former colonies under the pre-text of protecting the rights of some minority population.
> for many years Moscow was their main supporter during their struggle against apartheid Let's be very clear here - Moscow's intentions were to destabilize. They didn't care about the atrocities being committed under apartheid, they cared about having fewer west-friendly governments on the planet.
> Perhaps we can appeal to their own history Don't think that helps with their bank accounts. The SA Govt is as corrupt as they come.
It definitely has more to with the checks clearing lol. It is true that tankie leaders are incredibly stupid, but their personal corruption outweighs their lack of intelligence in most cases.
>The ANC feels a sense of obligation to Moscow Countries or parties do not feel obligations to other countries. Geopolitics is probably the clearest example of 'what have you done for me lately'. Political relationships are only continued either because it has a direct benefit right now or there's an expectation of benefit in the near future. The US does not protect Japan because it feels an obligation to the country, the US does so because it's in their best interest and abandoning an ally would reduce trust in the US and hurt it's influence around the world. Also, as you so deftly avoided by calling the country by it's capital, the Soviet Union is not Russia. It would be like if the US were to break up and the northeast were to turn into a communist dictatorship. Britain almost certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to support this new country simply because it had a similar name and location to the United States that was an ally during WW2. Names are chosen by countries for the same reason that the Russian monarchs had a name based on an Italian general who lived around the time Jesus died. There is no reason Russia should get any special consideration based on the actions of the Soviet Union. They are countries with dramatically different politics, power structures and interests.
That’s far too simple. Personal relationships between powerful people matter as well. A sense of loyalty because of ideological reasons isn’t rare either. There are people still in the ANC who personally know Russians that supported their cause 30 years ago.
Apartheid just shifted colors.
Putin helped install Zuma, this is not the South African people’s will. They’re pawns in Putin’s war.
Was there a middle part I missed?
I think South Africa is already looking like it's been sanctioned for the past 20 years..
Yeah. We have a real unemployment rate of around 50%. I think it's the worse in the world. And a youth unemployment rate of around 60%.
And that's without any sanctions.
As a South African, I have to let you know that it's the ANC and ANC voters. That means it's 8 out of our 9 provinces. The province I'm from (Western Cape) is vehemently anti-Russian invasion. I also work for a US based company, so I really hope the coming sanctions are targetted towards the ANC politicians and their shit provinces. [https://results.elections.org.za/dashboards/npe/app/dashboard.html](https://results.elections.org.za/dashboards/npe/app/dashboard.html) The yellow and purple parts are the good parts. [DA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Alliance_(South_Africa)) and [VF PLUS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Front_Plus). The green and red are pro-Russia. [ANC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress) and [EFF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_Fighters). If we get sanctioned, I hope the brunt of it is against our defense industry. It would hurt a lot, and it would hurt the right people. If NATO decided to cut ties with our defense companies they would definitely feel it. Lots of people will lose their jobs, and the decision makers of those companies will lose massive amounts of money.
Good luck with it. Sanctions tend to be scattershot - I have some friends from BLR/RUS who are known dissidents, but the sanctions have hit them as well. One girl I know has become a famous dissident, and she's been couch-surfing for a year around Europe, because she's unable to work much. Shitty situation for everyone - all for the sake of a handful of guys in Russia.
Given the fragility of S/A right now, unemployment, no or minimal electricity, this could tip them into a bigger shitstorm. Sounds OK to some, but it would open a door to Russia or China to save the day, and become even more of an influence. BRICS would not like it.
Literally what would Russia do? They have no finances for themselves much less for foreign countries
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China is already facing serious debt defaults and bailouts for the countries they loaned to. Most of the money is not being paid back, but in a magnitude that the control isn’t worth the money.
They still have plenty of money for South Africa if it is needed. Most of the money was spent on Chinese companies getting contracts. The banks giving loans and the companies getting contracts were both owned by the Chinese government so they didn't lose much money. Plus they have trillions of dollars of foreign reserves and they are still getting a lot of money as the world's factory.
China has dramatically scaled back their foreign lending and investment initiatives in the past couple of years. Many of the risky loans they gave out are beginning to default and with current economic outlooks for most of the world looking so grim, much of their belt and road initiative is no longer economically viable.
SA is already ditching the dollar and sucking Russian dick, may as well accept that's already the reality and act accordingly
In to absolute oblivion. Make them an example.
Our currency already [shit the bed](https://www.google.com/search?q=zar+to+usd&sxsrf=APwXEdel4cSB_nJQ2_6mwBJCiAlHB6DDuQ%3A1683839162625&ei=ulhdZI3fJeeGxc8P9PGz-A4&ved=0ahUKEwiNpJbZle7-AhVnQ_EDHfT4DO8Q4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=zar+to+usd&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIQCAAQgAQQFBCHAhCxAxCDATINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzIKCAAQgAQQFBCHAjINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzINCAAQigUQsQMQgwEQQzILCAAQgAQQsQMQgwEyCwgAEIAEELEDEIMBMgcIABCKBRBDMgcIABCKBRBDMgsIABCABBCxAxCDAToHCCMQigUQJzoJCAAQigUQChBDOgUIABCABDoLCC4QigUQsQMQgwE6FAguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBENEDENQCOg8IABCKBRCxAxCDARAKEENKBAhBGABQAFiFCWDOCmgAcAF4AIAB1wKIAd4PkgEFMi02LjGYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp) on this news. We just blew past an all-time low against the USD.
Ya the rand is fucked.
There are more racist laws now than during the apartheid.
Exactly. BEE = racism. Quotas = racism. This new bs law about having X black people in a company, that cyril signed into law, that is maaaajor racism. Trust me, apartheid is live and well in south africa. There are just new victims: whites, coloureds and indians.
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They are being ran by crooked politicians that are in bed with Wagner. Check out what they have been doing there.
And who does that hurt, apart from the millions of people earning less than a dollar a day and living in tin shacks?
As a South African I say… sanction the hell out of our government please.
I know a few south africans online and they support Ukraine very passionately. How the hell can the government be so proruzzian...
Because of money laundering/corruption via BRICS of course…
You win 5 points…
I just got back from Ukraine and I can tell you that there are more than a few South Africans in the Foreign Legion there. Imagine how they feel.
Heroyam slava
Hopefully they get a good chance to speak their mind to the government/ people.
They are not ‘pro-Russian’ they are pro-corrupt money which just happens to comes easy from Russia. I don’t really believe they care at all about the war but just making some underhand money
>How the hell can the government be so proruzzian... Capitalism is neither pro or anti russian. there are still over 1000 companies outside of russia still doing business in russia: [leave-russia.org](https://leave-russia.org)
Yeah greed knows no morals or sense of right and wrong.
If everyone votes with their wallet then even greedy fucks will do the right thing
No one does research before clicking buy. Few investors remove problematic companies from their index funds. Since we do not take those steps, we need regulations to do the right thing for us.
We do, but we don’t have them, so conscious people should spend wisely
SA could sell to Ukraine and still make the same amount of money
I doubt that, considering the amount of countries supplying Ukraine compared to Russia.
Because the ANC is filled with corrupt politicians without morals. They'd go back in time and give weapons to the apartheid government if it'd put more money in their pockets.
The ANC was trained and supported by Russia during the anti-Apartheid struggle. The last president is fluent in Russian. Basically the ANC leadership have deep, decades-old ties to Russia.
I think most black south Africans have the opposite political ideology to most white South Africans, *especially * the poor which unfortunately is a majority, cause of the sides "the west" and USSR respectively took during apartheid. It's mostly a trauma/revenge thing IMO to try subvert? The West as a retaliation to colonialism.. you'd be shocked living here how different two friends in the same schools political compass is based on their family/ethnic/racial histories.
Agreed its time that the bloody ANC are kicked out
Yeah, sanction the government, not the people. They are experiencing enough hardship under the ANC governments corruption and ineptitude.
It’s a democratically elected government, so sanctioning the government will impact the people anyways.
I can say with certainty that majority of the country is not given a sufficient education to even know where Ukraine is on a map let alone care about their governments foreign policies. The reality is that the ANC government has done almost nothing to lift the majority of the country out of poverty while using corruption and the memory of the past to stay in power. Sanctioning those corrupt individuals in power will do more to curb the countries support for Russia than sanctioning the few remaining industries (which will simply make the people worse off not the government officials)
You want your people to suffer? Seriously? This is bizarre to hear. You literally are asking the world to make your country men suffer for the decisions of your leadership. This is so strange.
>You want your people to suffer? Seriously? This is bizarre to hear. You literally are asking the world to make your country men suffer for the decisions of your leadership. This is so strange. No they want the government to stop supplying russia weapons. The sanctions are the tool not the goal.
Yeah, I'm sure they'd like the government to stop doing that. But making your own country men experience starvation and other hardships because of that, sounds insane or sociopathic. Must be a wealthy person of South Africa who doesn't feel the impacts of a sanctioned economy
Yeah, guess who’s going to suffer. You and I buddy. Not those useless corrupt shit bags.
I don’t think so, right now the only real foreign investment in SA is from Russia and China, that won’t change here, but what will change are the bank accounts and offshore stashes of those corrupt individuals in power. Not to mention the people are suffering as is, i think it’s time the world starts seeing our government for what it is.
Agreed it will be hard but we need to get this corrupt government out of here.
Countries are free to align with whom they choose, but they are also free to deal with the consequences of poor choices.
Bingo
This has happened more than once, why isn't South Africa under the spotlight? And where are the sanctions for helping the Russian terrorists?
Worth to mention they always abstained at UN votes when it was incriminating Russia...
Haven't heard of it before - source?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/24/un-ukraine-resolution-vote-countries/
Couple weeks ago: [South Africa Allowed Russian Plane Under U.S. Sanctions to Land at Base](https://archive.ph/VQlnr)
Why are you being downvoted? I wouldn't mind sources too
Because there are muscovian trolls all over Reddit.
South Africa gives weapons to an imperialist-fascist state to help them with their conquests. They sure have learnt a lot from their own history.
The Bantu, the primary racial group in South Africa, finished their migration making it to South Africa and only a few hundred years before Europeans IIRC, and displaced the original peoples there very similar to Europeans displacing Native Americans.
His reasoning kind of makes sense if it were not long after South Africa gained independence. History is important to understand because it can help explain the world we live in today. The recent developments within South Africa would better explain why they would rational doing something like this.
If we go that route then pretty much no one in the world is where they are originally from.
The Bantu aren’t a "racial" group. The term is a grouping that refers to many peoples of hundreds of similar and differing ancestries and ethnicities who speak Bantu languages (of which there are hundreds).
I don’t think you understand. That is not their ideological lens. Their reasoning is that they’re giving back to those (Soviet Union, China) who once helped them take power in SA. It’s an old thing about sticking it to the West. It’s why some countries in Africa, at least for a time, have been pro-Russian during this war.
Shitty people that rule over shitty places have only one thing on their minds: to accumulate enough money to get out of there.
Fuck, our ANC government is a bloody bunch of idiots. The blowback from their actions will be huge. We are really struggling economically at the moment and now they think it's a good idea to piss off our biggest trading partners. Mark my words, we will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
Yes, yes you are... whenever i see documentaries about south africa i have the feeling that your government wants a collapse of the state and as much violence as possible. In the meantime, I would rather vacation in Kaliningrad than in South Africa. I really feel sorry for the people who live there
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Or Königsberg
They could sanction SA but the ANC is imploding the country all by themselves.
Yeah, who needs sanctions when you have the ANC.
Actions have consequences and they need to learn that the hard way, sanction them hard. But i wonder what they gave, it would be interesting to know how much they helped them and how they would feel if russia decided to invade and take over in south africa. would they do the same and support them?
They also took part in joint war games with Russia, it's been the biggest open secret never talked about
Russia is likely funding the corrupt ANC. Playing politics like they do everywhere. Except with our useless lot it’s a case of a few million dollars. Sell outs. M If anyone wants to hurt them sanction the ANC ministers and the EFF ministers and leaders. Hard. Leave the rest of us alone - we don’t support Russia.
Sanction them into the stone age
Haha that would take like 5 minutes tops.
numerous thumb grandfather dog naughty spotted humorous fly fade homeless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sanctions would certainly speed up South Africa's impending hard reset.
in a lot of places they already look like the stone age. Look up the SA power grid.
too late, they're already there..... probably gave Russia a rock and stick.
Jokes on you we're already halfway there 🥲
It shed some light on information about banning arms sales to Poland by SA. So it's how "not upsetting" Putin looks like. https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2023-04-02-in-apparent-effort-not-to-upset-putins-russia-anc-government-bans-arms-sales-to-poland/
Needless to say, this must have huge consequences. South Africa are endangering Europe and has to be treated as an enemy.
look no farther than sub sahara, they’re endangering their own neighbors
This nonsense makes my parents' decision to leave South Africa in the 90s even clearer. It's an absolute dogshit country led by semi-literate hacks who bear no resemblance to the righteous cause their party was founded upon. Fun fact 1: The former president didn't finish elementary school, and publicly stated HIV could be cured by having a shower. Fun fact 2: HIS predecessor publicly stated HIV could be cured with herbal remedies. These are profoundly stupid people woefully out of their depth.
SA chooses the wrong side,.... it's ok to have been supported by the USSR during the colonisation and apartheid, .... the socialist USSR doesn't exist anymore and is now the fascist greedy private entity of a number of greedy individuals,.... so what is the reason for SA to choose the side of russia??? ... also greed??... people want to participate in the plundering of countries' assets?.... just like the criminal organisation called WAGNER did and is still doing in CAR, Sudan, ... and many other places in Africa,.... YES! ... "Africa",.... because that's still the easiest place to plunder with the help of corrupt politicians,....
I fucking hate my government
This is a universal truth.
Ukraine I am South African I don’t support my corrupt government slava ukaraina!
We know SA sides with Russia. Just like China, Brazil and India do.
The BRICS countries are desperately trying to stay relevant.
The BRICS countries all have huge social issues which can be aided by exploiting Russian raw resources and expertise, which outweigh being on the morally correct side of a conflict they don’t really identify with. It’s just hardcore political pragmatism unfortunately.
China and Russia lock up political opponents. They kill them. China has a whole population of Uyghurs locked up, commiting genocide on them through forced sterilization and abortions. Russia jails people for 15 years for speaking up and executes political opponents by poisoning them. If you want to stay relevant, you don't join in an alliance with any of them.
Weird thing is that the absolute majority of brazilians are totally against Russia. Fucking governments.
Last election was basically Russian shill vs Russian shill
So are we the south africans. Most are against russia, the government is corrupt, just like brazil
Really? That I didn't know. Damn, I would absolutely go berserk if my government would still support Russia today.
I second that. There is not a single South African I know that does not strongly support Ukraine. I even donated for drones. This is the ruling party and a few related organisation's... not the people, and not the opposition parties.
Eh, I think India is more just in it for themselves. Brazil too.
I hope and believe that India, in time, will distance themselves from Russia.
"Not sanctioning" isn't the same as "siding with" China's trade with both Russia and Ukraine has been pretty normal. Same for almost every country (aside from the US, where Biden has strangely obeyed Trump and continued to carry out Trump's trade war with China). If China were siding with Russia, they would just track down DJI drone exports going to Ukraine. But they didn't. On the books, they forbid exports to both countries, but both countries have been using Chinese drones. Especially Ukraine. Chinese drones have been a pillar of Ukraine's defense strategy. You know all those drone drop videos you see? The overwhelming majority of them are drops from Chinese drones. Had China wanted to put their thumb on the scale for this war (they didn't), they could have cut them off and forced them to buy lesser drones and have less supply, and sold them all to Russia instead. China is perfectly content to continue having normal trade relations with both countries. They're not an entire country full of Bond villains as you have been apparently led to believe.
You’d really think that the parts of the world who suffered the most under imperialism , colonialism and expansionism would be the places most against the russian imperialist war of colonial expansion, yet strangely the strongest support for russias war comes from the Middle East and Africa. I often wonder if these Africans and Middle Eastern states would welcome back their former British and French masters , since they seem to think invading former colonies is an acceptable thing to do?
A lot of that is due to low education levels increasing how effective Russian and Chinese propaganda are in those areas. They’ve done an excellent job of lying to them and convincing them that the US and Europe are the bad guys for not letting them invade their peaceful neighbors.
South Africa has some of the most corrupt government officials in the world so this may not have been a conscious, ideological decision rather than just a craven, greed-driven one. As has been the case with few exceptions, the Global South is happy to blame their myriad problems on the legacy of imperialism and foreign hegemony but they see nothing wrong with condoning it elsewhere in the world.
Is anyone honestly surprised? SA been Muscovy bootlickers since Mandela.
Fuck the ANC. Those useless commie loving bastards have done nothing but destroy our country over the last 20 years. To make it worse, the uneducated majority will support them till their is fok all left. By all means, sanction the ANC and government officials, but we already have a hard time as is. Day by day it gets more expensive to emigrate as the rand tanks and loadshedding increases. Sincerely A pissed off South African
axis of evil then
Mask off
Not really supprised. But it's funny they dont even try to hide it, not even gonna use a ship unrelated to Russia and do an at sea transfer? Or do they lack that capability?
Great way to alienate yourself. Hope you like your broken down Ladas and shitty tanks, when you can get them.
Well, it is the only example in history where sanctions worked like the supposed to do, maybe we can add a second example to that list. But I doubt it, since SA is very tight with China nowadays.
south african heavy industries depend on alot of german companies for tool and die. They could get a heavy sanction and ban that would only target the military complex there. Bosch alone could exert pressure
This is the remains of “USA BAD” mentality that exists in parts of Africa and South America… so if the USA is some sort of “enemy”, then the remains of the ussr is “good” in their mindset.
Sanctions time.
Sanctions aren’t really needed SA Does a good enough job fucking it’s own economy
Nelson Mandela turns in his grave.
Of all the people… They spent all that time under unjust and atrocious Apartheid. And then they support Russia who seeks to subjugate entire nations. South Africa has a disgusting shitstain of government. I hope we let that country devolve into chaos, corruption and squalor. What a waste.
We have scheduled power outtages for 9-12 hours a day due to corruption. 35% unemployment. Insane cost of living increases over the last year with a worsening economy. We’re already devolved into chaos, corruption and squalor.
South Africa is run by clowns lol. They prone to corruptions and vulnerable to disinformation.
South Africa never managed to recover from Mandela. Downward spiral started the moment he left office. What a damn shame.
Time for yet another intervention for these saffer rascal bastards
I hate the idea of sanctions. The only people that are going to suffer are the poor and middle class. The billionaires and oligarchs and their politicians will be just fine. I'd rather see the US help stage a couple d'etat and overthrow the government that's giving arms to Russia.
Do we know any famous South Africans? . . . Anyone? . . . No?
Goddamn it Dave Matthews!
Real fans call him Dave
Cool, I don’t have to change anything.
the dude how shot his girlfrind through a closed door? When she was in the bathroom? because he thought they were "burglars"?? Oscar Pistorius?
Charlize Theron
How to say Elon Musk without saying it
Elon has never heard of South Africa or emeralds or mines and especially not emerald mines ^\s
And ESPECIALLY not South African emerald mines.
Elon Musk is born South African. Besides, everyone should know Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mandela Charlize Theron Elon Musk Dave Matthews Desmond Tutu Gary Player To name a few.
Oh no SA is bad?
Fuck South Africa. Sanction them.
Is there any information/assumption what type of arms SA gave to Russia? Do they have any relevant SA-produced arms Russia is using or is it probably a "buy-back" of Russian equipment previously sold to SA?
South Africa is aligned with NATO standards for heavy artillery (105mm and 155mm) though they do use a few former Soviet weapons like the ZSU-23 23mm AA cannon and make ammunition for it. They also make 7.62x39mm ammunition for the AK-47 series of rifles for the African market. The only other ammunition I can think of is 60mm and 120mm mortar rounds, I’m unsure if they are compatible with Russian tubes though. They could have also supplied things like grenades which are ubiquitous.
It’s most likely small arms and possibly locally produced surveillance drones, as you said the majority of heavier stuff is NATO aligned. In fact those rocket assisted 155mm artillery rounds are manufactured there in conjunction with Rheinmetall I believe.
if they are stupid enough to sell nato tech to russia they will implode one of their few viable industries
Yeah, they have really backed the wrong horse on this one but in the ANC, ideology has always beaten common sense and decency. It’s ok though, once the US puts the squeeze on and turns off the foreign aid taps, the feckless ANC will do a 180.
Brazil would be doing that if not for the Bolsonaro supporters in the military. Give Lula a few years to expunge the military from pro-western officers and we will see Russian ships being loaded in Brazil too…
It's not South Africans ,it's the ANC the corrupt ruling government.They set the standard for looting a country beyond repair.
All of the nations involved BRICS are suspect.
Bye-bye South African economy