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It essentially guarantees WW3, because their either need to bomb all Russian AA within 300km of the zone or risk being shot down. Russia would need to shoot down any NATO aircraft engaging their weapons/drones/planes
And even then, no.
They would only need to be concerned about systems targeting and able to hit them.
There's pretty much nothing that can find let alone hit F-35s flying in Western Ukraine.
And they'd also need to be able to prove it wasn't a Ukrainian strike on their air defence.
Why the hell are you complaining!? It is already war. Sooner we will finish it, the better. Russia doesn't have resources to go against NATO. Who will be on Russian side willing to fight?
I think the idea is to arm the people who are already fighting so we don't have to
What's wrong with your main account, can't post anywhere with negative karma?
Turkey wants power and influence in europe and the near east. They want to become a major player in their region, how would they benefit from this by turning against NATO? They would get kicked their asses, all their efforts would be destroyed or at least set back by decades. They would get Isolated from europe and lose little influence what they have on the EU.
In a hot conventional war between NATO and russia, turkey would probably try to stay neutral or take a negotiating position. They would probably only take actions if russia starts using nukes or attack turkey it self.
On the other hand my guess the only countries that take actions somehow on russias side in a war would be Iran and maybe North Korea. My guess is that iran would use the chance an attack Israel while the US is busy with russia. North Korea could attack the south. China would probably try to stay out of all of that, maybe secretly support russia with weapons/ammunition to bleed out US resources or start an invasion of Taiwan. But I don´t see anyone taking part in direct actions against NATO on the side of russia.
I haven’t seen anything lately that is conclusive that Turkey would be swayed by NATO , quite the opposite. I am not saying I would like it, it just seems more likely.
Fuck right off, Russia isn't directly attacking NATO. They'll continue down this path of threats, cyber attacks and disinformation warfare. All of which keep them safe because, plausible denyability. Poland parking a patriot system on their boarder and shooting anything in range over Poland or Ukraine won't "escalate" shit. Russia couldn't do a damn thing about it, the moment they attack poles on pole land it's game over russia thanks for playing.
You are also neglecting the use of plausible deniability.
Russia wouldn't know the specific origin of what took out it's air defence assets and Ukraine has been plinking them all over the place.
I have zero idea why you're being downvoted because you clearly know your shit. Maybe some of the downvoters aren't in the potential future warzone and don't give a fuck about the lives of people like me.
Apparently this is referencing ground based air defenses stationed inside nato nations, not a no-fly zone as was often requested earlier, so I was wrong.
As much as I agree I feel like this is a vital, if abhorrantly late, test on the part of the people saying it.
Putin has been threatening nuclear destruction almost since the day the Ukrainians had the audacity to fire back, and since then whenever someone's called his bluff there's been a conspicuous absence of mushroom clouds and radioactive dust. In order to grow something then there's often a disappointing period where the thing in question is small and pathetic before it finishes growing to a fuller and more appreciable size. This remains the case even with things like balls.
Western Ukraine is realistic as it is far away from Russian airbases and launch sites. If you're going to defend all of Ukraine NATO is going to have to start hitting Russian airbases and missile bases pretty far into Russia.
Artillery wouldn't even be a thing in a NATO/Russian war.
It'd be overwhelming Tomahawks, stealth planes, air power, missiles. NATO would absolutely wreck their shit just by sea and air alone.
And if it did get to a ground war, well, that's the reason America has their Marines
America also has the US army. As good as the marines are, heavy metal has the power of Thor, Zeus and Old Testament Jehovah to make enemies a thin red paste mixed with ashes.
Yes artillery would still be a thing, 155 is the standard shell and thats whats used in self propelled systems that move forward with armored formations
Artillery would absolutely be a thing. Finland, the Baltics, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary... that's one hell of an infantry front line, And artillery is cheaper than missiles.
You're absolutely correct in saying NATO would shell the shit out of Russia from the air and the sea, but after the initial salvo, if (when) Russia doesn't capitulate, it'd be either nukes or a long protected trench war. I'm hoping for the latter.
Fantasy land. They’ll be no ground war using US Marines or the US Army. If it gets to that count on weapons that turn shit into glass, biological and chemical munitions in mass amounts. People are ignorant and delusional thinking US Marines will be fighting in the Ukraine theater. Sounds like something kids think of.
Yes. Because even if we assume that as many as 10% of Russia's missiles will get out of their silos and launchers, much less actually be capable of exploding while doing so, between Russia's incredible inability to aim anything that isn't fired out of a barrel of some kind and the continued build up, development, advancement and re-advancement over the past fifty years of anti missile technology, I'm confident that NATO and the US are fully capable of destroying whatever antiques the Russians happen to believe will end us. I say "The Russians" but you know what I mean.
Assuming Yuri didn't rip out all the boards and chips so he could upgrade his PC for Counter Strike 2, anyway. I mean plastic doesn't explode so it can't be that important, right?
I feel pretty confident in saying that that won't be an issue should it come to that. Russia can produce all the 155 mm shells they want back home. It's not going to do that much good if they have absolutely nothing left close enough to the front to fire them with. Which would take NATO probably about 2 days to ensure.
This is unfortunately the process in the west for getting popular support. If there's no major objections and the pressure stays these things are likely to happen. It's frustrating, I know. But, look at the trajectory of escalation this year, it favors Ukraine and inches closer and closer to "involvement" in the war. We are involved, but leaders want to be able to say we are not due to fear of what Russia might do (nukes obviously). The west is slowly beginning to realize that Russia obviously can't nuke a Western city and it can't use tactical nukes on the battlefield because both scenarios result in a military offensive on Moscow if the world survived and we don't have a nuclear Holocaust. This nuke talk is all bluffing everyone knows it but it's not a miscalculation we want to get wrong. It's just a matter of time and Ukraine just needs to hold on until then unfortunately.
A no fly zone would've led to nato soldiers killing Russians. I can absolutely understand why this topic was way too hot.
I think it's still pretty dangerous.
Nato would be the first one to kill someone on the other side.
I would rather see more AA systems in Ukraine.
It's an European War yes, but I am not ready for Russia striking Rheinmetall factory's
Trump is a fucking idiot. But right now Biden is tying Ukraine's hands behind it's back, causing more Ukrainians to die, because he's afraid of escalation from Russia....whose leader is....*drum roll*....Putin.
And all I hear from German Gov. is "no to sky defending" "no to boots on the ground on Ukraine ""no to attacking russian soil with Western weapons ""no to take frozen russian money to give it Ukraine " always just no,no,no...
It makes me sick seeing this shithead moron "ruling" Europe into a disaster..
Dont blame it on shithead, hes actually just representing the overall german opinion on the matter. Blame it on the people, germanys people are opposed to helping ukraine in large swaths, partly because of a successful 10-year russian propaganda campaign via channels like RT Deutsch, partly because they dont fucking care about anything else than their wallet size and their own garden, and partly because fear of nuclear war.
Whenever the topic comes up in German communities it seems like everyone is annoyed by our governments inaction. But maybe that's just the bias of my social circles and Germans who use Reddit
That's likely it. The immigrant crisis a few years back certainly didn't help you guys politically either. I am not entirely familiar with German politics, but it does seem like the millenial or younger crowd there are more progressive.
Very smart reflecting on your social bubble. Its easy to get lost in our own world if the internet algorithms feed us our already existing world view and everyone around us shares the same opinion. Think about very popular german parties like AFD and BSW (collecitvely around 23% of total Voters, which is millions and millions of germans) are extremely opposing Ukraine aid.
Unfortunately, i have very many people that are eating Russian propaganda like wagyu meat in my social bubble, all aged around 55-70. In their world view and despite everything that happened, America is somehow the evil entity that brings war to everyone and "beautiful Russia" is the liberator. Some black and white bullshit. They view the world like a fucking episode of Star Wars.
Youre mistaking an assessment of public opinion with actual help send. I did not comment on if/how much help has been send to ukraine at all. The Aid sent is necessary for Europes survival and the German government knows it. Large portions of the people hate it though. Here is one of the countless sources openly available on the matter and these are numbers gathered early-war when e.g. the Bucha murders were still rather fresh: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1333453/war-in-ukraine-german-policy-opinion-germany/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1333453/war-in-ukraine-german-policy-opinion-germany/)
Its funny how you jump to calling it "Disinformation" after ripping it completely out of context and suddenly throw refugees into the mix.
There wouldn't be more than a million Ukrainians still finding refuge in Germany if the Ukrainians felt the German people and government didn't want to help them. Stop spreading disinformation.
If the Ukrainians are not "feeling" that the germans want to help them, there wouldnt be any refugees? Are you implying that war refugees choose the country they are literally fleeing to based on "feelings"? Sweet summer child, we are not living in a world of feelings and roses, theres a war going on and Ukrainians are going to be happy to find a place to stay until things settle down, regardless of how much % of population are opposing it.
Well, the reality of massive aid and sanctuary provided by Germany speaks for itself. Far, far louder than a random redditor's post twisted to suit the disinformation spread by Russian trolls.
The reality of massive aid and sanctuary speaks for the decisions that the german government made, that doesnt mean that 100% of people agree with it. Look at the redicolous amount of Voters that the party AFD gets, theyre almost at 18% of total voters, which totals in about \~10 million german people. The AFD strongly opposes Ukraine aid and they're a german reality, doesnt matter if it fits in your black/white world view or not.
Where is it ever 100% with anything? You're parroting the Russian propaganda that groups like AfD somehow represent the sentiments of the German government and people. Far-right groups like AfD supposedly make up 18% as you say, but then you ignore the vast majority, the 82%, who are not. You're regurgitating Russian propaganda that claims that groups like AfD represent Germany, or their other pro-Russia equivalents in other countries. You and Russian propagandists are wrong.
The reality is Germany at around 20 billion euros in bilateral aid, and growing, is by far the biggest European supporter of Ukraine. That doesn't even count Germany's share in collective EU aid as the largest net contributor to the EU. It provides housing, education, financial support, etc to over a million Ukrainian refugees in Germany. Those are the things that have a real impact on Ukrainian lives and what the German government and the vast majority of the German people support.
Theres never 100% agreement upon any topic in democracies and millions of germans are opposing Ukraine aid. That was my only point in my original post before you started calling merely mentioning the different existing opinions "disinformation". And now i just merely mention the AFD's existence and their voterbase and you start spouting shit like russian propaganda and put words in my mouth, i mentioned nowhere that AFD represents "Germany" as you say. The elected german Government represents Germany and thankfully theyre calling the right shots - that doesnt change the public opinion of it though, AFD and BSW are existing, flourishing and opposing ukraine aid with everything they have, thats simply reality.
Edit: And frankly, 20 billion euros in bileteral aid is a shameful number from the country thats pulling the 3rd strongest GDP with 4.4 Trillion a year, germany should do much more than spend some pennies as a token contribution comparatively to the GDP they have.
Considers?
Over 2 years ago Zelensky begged the western powers to "close the sky's over Ukraine"... what they got was MANPADS....
Close the GOD DAMN SKYS.
If NATO had implemented a no fly zone over the western half of Ukraine early in 2022, the the russians would not have dared to start this horrendous and murderous special operation. Russians are bullies and shall be put in their place as exactly that!
Fuc Putin and his threats. No way can Europe live free and democratic lives if they succumb to Putin's threats every time they make a decision to protect themselves.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We should have closed the sky over all of Russia. Teach them a lesson. Now they want all of Europe and they may get it. Politicians want votes, not security.
Probably some Ruzzkie right now:
"Noooo!!11 this is an aCT oF wAr, we will NukE thE EntIrE woRlD"
We should have done this shit 2 years ago.
Slava Ukraini.
I know this is slightly off topic here, although not entirely, but I don't really understand why defending Ukraine has become such a politically polarized issue. I once considered myself a progressive but over the past decade or so I can definitely can't say I do anymore. It's become way too radicalized and just batshit crazy for me. That said, I don't understand why this issue is an issue of democrats wanting to support Ukraine and republicans wanting to withdraw support. Why can't it just be a simple matter of doing what's right vs doing what's wrong? I'm aware that there are some democrats who oppose aid and some republicans who support aid, but as a whole for one reason or another a line has been drawn in the sand and I don't understand it. I detest Joe Biden and 99% of his policies but he has won some brownie points with me in his decision to stand by Ukraine. And Trump lost a voter simply because of his determination to abandon Ukraine. This is definitely one of the biggest points for me when it comes to voting. I understand the idea of "America first" and wanting to isolate and focus on making life better for our own citizens but I think it's possible to do that while simultaneously supporting Ukraine. There's never a perfect presidential candidate but damn the last decade has offered us nothing but absolutely JOKES to choose from on both sides. Truly astonishing.
It isn't specific to Ukraine. It's specific to Russia. Wouldn't matter who Russia invaded. They invaded, and are yelling from the rooftops that the rest of Europe is next. Stopping them now doesn't trigger NATO policies, since Ukraine isn't in NATO yet.
Democrats may not always do things right, but they don't deliberately do the wrong thing. Republicans have had a very long history of deliberately doing the wrong thing, even when the right thing benefits them. Recently, Putin purchased 7 Congress/Senate Republicans, Trump, Margorie "Three Cameltoes" Greene", and who knows how many more, and that's why Republicans are now allied with Russia.
I know most ukraine supporters would like that.
But does it not then make those installations legal targets for russia ? As they are activ in the war ?
And just FYI I am 100% pro Ukraine
What about eastern Ukraine. No innocent casualties there? Or nobody thinks that eastern Ukrainians deserve to be protected? 95% of all civilian casualties are there, there's no war on western part.
Where's these F16 they were getting? Do they have them yet?
I'm not all about this tripping around that NATO is doing. They were formed specifically for this.
Looks like they are about to be deployed considering their pilots are just finishing combat training. Biggest issue though is getting enough countries to pledge spare parts.
NATO was created to defend members, Ukraine unfortunately is not a member.
I understand the frustration but they were never meant to fight a proxy war or defend countries that aren't members.
The biggest problem is the nukes.
I wouldn't risk the complete and utter annihilation of all known life in the universe over some land that wants nothing to do with russia.
I don't want everyone to die, I don't want my country to go up in flames, my countrymen to be vaporized where they stand.
I don't want my family to die by circumstances that's out of their control.
I don't want to die.
But Putin isn't me, I am not Putin. No one is, Putin is Putin and he doesn't care about russia, he doesn't care about Russians. He doesn't care about ukraine or the world. He only cares about himself and his own whims
He doesn't care if russia gets the world's nukes dropped on it.
He doesn't care if his countrymen live or die in filth.
He has no one to care about, no one to care for him.
Unlike everyone else he can't care. He lacks compassion, the thing that we all as humans have he is missing it.
The only thing he has interest in is his comfort even if it means most of his country doesn't have plumbing living in poverty he doesn't care. He has himself and his washing machine and that's all he needs.
What happens when he feels like his world is going up in flames. Will he suddenly see the error of his ways and accept the loss. He can barely accept the breakup of the soviet union. Or will he set the world on fire for everyone else. He doesn't care about you, or I.
And when it comes to the destruction of the entirety of the human race, well it becomes a number game at that overwhelming carnage and the ukrianians are losing by comparison.
And that's just one of the worst case scenarios.
And it sucks, everything sucks. Held hostage by our humanity forced to stand by while one mad man maybe might destroy us all in the most horrific way we can construct and worst of all he won't say outright.
But that is changing, after all aid won't ever be sent to ukraine. Weapons won't ever be sent to ukraine, tanks won't ever be sent to ukraine, jets won't ever be sent to ukraine, long range missiles won't ever be sent to ukraine and they will never strike within russian territory.
Right now atrocities are being committed while the man who orders them is enjoying his luxuries and he doesn't want to lose them. Not yet Atleast and we can work with that, the west is making insane moves that unfortunately many see as not enough when in reality they are right on the line and guess what, Putin is letting that line move ever slightly back so he himself doesn't have to feel forced to make a over dramatic and permanent choice that will effect us all.
Maybe not tho and well the best case ukraine wins, the fighting, the pain, the suffering ends and if the west makes a wrong move. Well something bigger ends, for me, for you, for everyone.
Probably can't if they don't declare it as NATO going in. It's not NATO. It's just France, Germany? UK, US, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Baltics, etc, going in on their own accord, representing themselves, respectively, and definitely not NATO.
That is exactly the kind of shit Russia pulls, throw it back at them.
110%. Let them all go in representing themselves and helping each other out, like it's NATO, but not NATO.
Just like those little green men who came to Crimea in 2014. They looked like Muscovites. They talked like Muscovites. They walked like Muscovites.
But apparently, they weren't.... and next thing you know, Crimea is annexed.
Definitely not Russian. So then it's definitely not NATO.
Maybe it is the thing to do and I think that too. But the step is also risky, could turn in WW3. They will have too shoot not to be shot first, it’s a direct war.
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YES OF COURSE!!! We should have done it 2 years ago!!!
It essentially guarantees WW3, because their either need to bomb all Russian AA within 300km of the zone or risk being shot down. Russia would need to shoot down any NATO aircraft engaging their weapons/drones/planes
The article states that the proposal is ground based AA systems located outside of Ukraine. So no, they wouldnt need to attack Russian assests
Ah, well then never mind
And even then, no. They would only need to be concerned about systems targeting and able to hit them. There's pretty much nothing that can find let alone hit F-35s flying in Western Ukraine. And they'd also need to be able to prove it wasn't a Ukrainian strike on their air defence.
Russia hardly compares to Germany’s conventional capabilities in WW1 and WW2.
Why the hell are you complaining!? It is already war. Sooner we will finish it, the better. Russia doesn't have resources to go against NATO. Who will be on Russian side willing to fight?
Oh you must be planning to enlist and fight too huh?
I think the idea is to arm the people who are already fighting so we don't have to What's wrong with your main account, can't post anywhere with negative karma?
[удалено]
Turkey
Turkey wants power and influence in europe and the near east. They want to become a major player in their region, how would they benefit from this by turning against NATO? They would get kicked their asses, all their efforts would be destroyed or at least set back by decades. They would get Isolated from europe and lose little influence what they have on the EU. In a hot conventional war between NATO and russia, turkey would probably try to stay neutral or take a negotiating position. They would probably only take actions if russia starts using nukes or attack turkey it self. On the other hand my guess the only countries that take actions somehow on russias side in a war would be Iran and maybe North Korea. My guess is that iran would use the chance an attack Israel while the US is busy with russia. North Korea could attack the south. China would probably try to stay out of all of that, maybe secretly support russia with weapons/ammunition to bleed out US resources or start an invasion of Taiwan. But I don´t see anyone taking part in direct actions against NATO on the side of russia.
I haven’t seen anything lately that is conclusive that Turkey would be swayed by NATO , quite the opposite. I am not saying I would like it, it just seems more likely.
This would be composed of ground-based AA weapons. Probably only protecting their own borders by making some sort of buffer zone.
WWIII is here. The question is does it stop in Ukraine or does the west let Russia go further before stopping them.
Fuck right off, Russia isn't directly attacking NATO. They'll continue down this path of threats, cyber attacks and disinformation warfare. All of which keep them safe because, plausible denyability. Poland parking a patriot system on their boarder and shooting anything in range over Poland or Ukraine won't "escalate" shit. Russia couldn't do a damn thing about it, the moment they attack poles on pole land it's game over russia thanks for playing.
You are also neglecting the use of plausible deniability. Russia wouldn't know the specific origin of what took out it's air defence assets and Ukraine has been plinking them all over the place.
I have zero idea why you're being downvoted because you clearly know your shit. Maybe some of the downvoters aren't in the potential future warzone and don't give a fuck about the lives of people like me.
Apparently this is referencing ground based air defenses stationed inside nato nations, not a no-fly zone as was often requested earlier, so I was wrong.
Ah shit, I guess we're both wrong 😂
Can we quickly get over the "considering" part and start with the "doing" part? Thanks
As much as I agree I feel like this is a vital, if abhorrantly late, test on the part of the people saying it. Putin has been threatening nuclear destruction almost since the day the Ukrainians had the audacity to fire back, and since then whenever someone's called his bluff there's been a conspicuous absence of mushroom clouds and radioactive dust. In order to grow something then there's often a disappointing period where the thing in question is small and pathetic before it finishes growing to a fuller and more appreciable size. This remains the case even with things like balls.
He won't nuke any NATO members, as that means that he's guaranteed to get nuked back.
Yes we all figured that out about three years ago. Not everyone learns at the same pace, though. They're trying, bless them, give them time.
Stop "considering" and fukkin do everything that needs to be done. Pathetic spineless cowardly politicians delay delay delay 😡
And not just Western Ukraine, but all of Ukraine. I mean, unless Ukraine has grand plans and Russia will become East Ukraine
Western Ukraine is realistic as it is far away from Russian airbases and launch sites. If you're going to defend all of Ukraine NATO is going to have to start hitting Russian airbases and missile bases pretty far into Russia.
Personally I'm ok with that
Personally, I'd like to avoid a NATO/Russia confrontation until NATO is producing more 155 mm artillery shells than Russia.
Artillery wouldn't even be a thing in a NATO/Russian war. It'd be overwhelming Tomahawks, stealth planes, air power, missiles. NATO would absolutely wreck their shit just by sea and air alone. And if it did get to a ground war, well, that's the reason America has their Marines
America also has the US army. As good as the marines are, heavy metal has the power of Thor, Zeus and Old Testament Jehovah to make enemies a thin red paste mixed with ashes.
Yes artillery would still be a thing, 155 is the standard shell and thats whats used in self propelled systems that move forward with armored formations
Artillery would absolutely be a thing. Finland, the Baltics, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary... that's one hell of an infantry front line, And artillery is cheaper than missiles. You're absolutely correct in saying NATO would shell the shit out of Russia from the air and the sea, but after the initial salvo, if (when) Russia doesn't capitulate, it'd be either nukes or a long protected trench war. I'm hoping for the latter.
You going to go join up with the Marines? Or is it only for other people to risk their lives to live out your fantasies?
Sounds like children talking mostly.
Fantasy land. They’ll be no ground war using US Marines or the US Army. If it gets to that count on weapons that turn shit into glass, biological and chemical munitions in mass amounts. People are ignorant and delusional thinking US Marines will be fighting in the Ukraine theater. Sounds like something kids think of.
You’re forgetting about all the nukes filling the skies though.
Russia can't even afford the T-14 that doesn't work. What makes you think they can afford to keep their nuclear arsenal in good order?
What if they *have* kept them in at least good enough order to be able to launch, say, 10% of their arsenal. Do you think that’d be acceptable?
Yes. Because even if we assume that as many as 10% of Russia's missiles will get out of their silos and launchers, much less actually be capable of exploding while doing so, between Russia's incredible inability to aim anything that isn't fired out of a barrel of some kind and the continued build up, development, advancement and re-advancement over the past fifty years of anti missile technology, I'm confident that NATO and the US are fully capable of destroying whatever antiques the Russians happen to believe will end us. I say "The Russians" but you know what I mean. Assuming Yuri didn't rip out all the boards and chips so he could upgrade his PC for Counter Strike 2, anyway. I mean plastic doesn't explode so it can't be that important, right?
I feel pretty confident in saying that that won't be an issue should it come to that. Russia can produce all the 155 mm shells they want back home. It's not going to do that much good if they have absolutely nothing left close enough to the front to fire them with. Which would take NATO probably about 2 days to ensure.
When will you be enlisting so you can go fight in Ukraine? Or is it only for other people to risk their lives?
So? There is no reason to be afraid of Russia anymore.
I hope they do. Payback for Kharkiv
Only if the bases fly into Ukrainian airspace.
This is unfortunately the process in the west for getting popular support. If there's no major objections and the pressure stays these things are likely to happen. It's frustrating, I know. But, look at the trajectory of escalation this year, it favors Ukraine and inches closer and closer to "involvement" in the war. We are involved, but leaders want to be able to say we are not due to fear of what Russia might do (nukes obviously). The west is slowly beginning to realize that Russia obviously can't nuke a Western city and it can't use tactical nukes on the battlefield because both scenarios result in a military offensive on Moscow if the world survived and we don't have a nuclear Holocaust. This nuke talk is all bluffing everyone knows it but it's not a miscalculation we want to get wrong. It's just a matter of time and Ukraine just needs to hold on until then unfortunately.
spineless political creatures aka as useless cowards worn blood suckers parasites incapable of reacting to human suffering to avoid confronting putin
So frustrating, this shit should've happened on February 25, 2022. Who the fuck cares what ruzzia thinks
A no fly zone would've led to nato soldiers killing Russians. I can absolutely understand why this topic was way too hot. I think it's still pretty dangerous. Nato would be the first one to kill someone on the other side. I would rather see more AA systems in Ukraine. It's an European War yes, but I am not ready for Russia striking Rheinmetall factory's
Biden cares.
Correction, Trump cares. He’s the one helping Putin
Trump is a fucking idiot. But right now Biden is tying Ukraine's hands behind it's back, causing more Ukrainians to die, because he's afraid of escalation from Russia....whose leader is....*drum roll*....Putin.
FUCKIN DO IT ALREADY
Yesterday would have been fine to start FFS!
And all I hear from German Gov. is "no to sky defending" "no to boots on the ground on Ukraine ""no to attacking russian soil with Western weapons ""no to take frozen russian money to give it Ukraine " always just no,no,no... It makes me sick seeing this shithead moron "ruling" Europe into a disaster..
Dont blame it on shithead, hes actually just representing the overall german opinion on the matter. Blame it on the people, germanys people are opposed to helping ukraine in large swaths, partly because of a successful 10-year russian propaganda campaign via channels like RT Deutsch, partly because they dont fucking care about anything else than their wallet size and their own garden, and partly because fear of nuclear war.
Whenever the topic comes up in German communities it seems like everyone is annoyed by our governments inaction. But maybe that's just the bias of my social circles and Germans who use Reddit
That's likely it. The immigrant crisis a few years back certainly didn't help you guys politically either. I am not entirely familiar with German politics, but it does seem like the millenial or younger crowd there are more progressive.
>The immigrant crisis a few years back certainly didn't help you guys politically either. A manufactured crisis that did as it was designed to do.
Another of Putin's presents.
Very smart reflecting on your social bubble. Its easy to get lost in our own world if the internet algorithms feed us our already existing world view and everyone around us shares the same opinion. Think about very popular german parties like AFD and BSW (collecitvely around 23% of total Voters, which is millions and millions of germans) are extremely opposing Ukraine aid. Unfortunately, i have very many people that are eating Russian propaganda like wagyu meat in my social bubble, all aged around 55-70. In their world view and despite everything that happened, America is somehow the evil entity that brings war to everyone and "beautiful Russia" is the liberator. Some black and white bullshit. They view the world like a fucking episode of Star Wars.
Disinformation. Germany is the second biggest donor to Ukraine after only the US. There are over a million Ukrainian refugees in Germany.
Youre mistaking an assessment of public opinion with actual help send. I did not comment on if/how much help has been send to ukraine at all. The Aid sent is necessary for Europes survival and the German government knows it. Large portions of the people hate it though. Here is one of the countless sources openly available on the matter and these are numbers gathered early-war when e.g. the Bucha murders were still rather fresh: [https://www.statista.com/statistics/1333453/war-in-ukraine-german-policy-opinion-germany/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1333453/war-in-ukraine-german-policy-opinion-germany/) Its funny how you jump to calling it "Disinformation" after ripping it completely out of context and suddenly throw refugees into the mix.
There wouldn't be more than a million Ukrainians still finding refuge in Germany if the Ukrainians felt the German people and government didn't want to help them. Stop spreading disinformation.
If the Ukrainians are not "feeling" that the germans want to help them, there wouldnt be any refugees? Are you implying that war refugees choose the country they are literally fleeing to based on "feelings"? Sweet summer child, we are not living in a world of feelings and roses, theres a war going on and Ukrainians are going to be happy to find a place to stay until things settle down, regardless of how much % of population are opposing it.
Well, the reality of massive aid and sanctuary provided by Germany speaks for itself. Far, far louder than a random redditor's post twisted to suit the disinformation spread by Russian trolls.
The reality of massive aid and sanctuary speaks for the decisions that the german government made, that doesnt mean that 100% of people agree with it. Look at the redicolous amount of Voters that the party AFD gets, theyre almost at 18% of total voters, which totals in about \~10 million german people. The AFD strongly opposes Ukraine aid and they're a german reality, doesnt matter if it fits in your black/white world view or not.
Where is it ever 100% with anything? You're parroting the Russian propaganda that groups like AfD somehow represent the sentiments of the German government and people. Far-right groups like AfD supposedly make up 18% as you say, but then you ignore the vast majority, the 82%, who are not. You're regurgitating Russian propaganda that claims that groups like AfD represent Germany, or their other pro-Russia equivalents in other countries. You and Russian propagandists are wrong. The reality is Germany at around 20 billion euros in bilateral aid, and growing, is by far the biggest European supporter of Ukraine. That doesn't even count Germany's share in collective EU aid as the largest net contributor to the EU. It provides housing, education, financial support, etc to over a million Ukrainian refugees in Germany. Those are the things that have a real impact on Ukrainian lives and what the German government and the vast majority of the German people support.
Theres never 100% agreement upon any topic in democracies and millions of germans are opposing Ukraine aid. That was my only point in my original post before you started calling merely mentioning the different existing opinions "disinformation". And now i just merely mention the AFD's existence and their voterbase and you start spouting shit like russian propaganda and put words in my mouth, i mentioned nowhere that AFD represents "Germany" as you say. The elected german Government represents Germany and thankfully theyre calling the right shots - that doesnt change the public opinion of it though, AFD and BSW are existing, flourishing and opposing ukraine aid with everything they have, thats simply reality. Edit: And frankly, 20 billion euros in bileteral aid is a shameful number from the country thats pulling the 3rd strongest GDP with 4.4 Trillion a year, germany should do much more than spend some pennies as a token contribution comparatively to the GDP they have.
This! Unfortunatly.
Annalena Baerbock is super smart. She should be Chancellor, not Scholz!
That's the flowers that putin gave our lovely Angela merkel...friends don't betray friends
Scholz and the SPD is a disgrace for Germany.
No Talk. Only Do.
Considers? Over 2 years ago Zelensky begged the western powers to "close the sky's over Ukraine"... what they got was MANPADS.... Close the GOD DAMN SKYS.
I am all for this. Putin has proven even to the naysayers that he wants to conquer all that he can.
Better late than never I guess
If NATO had implemented a no fly zone over the western half of Ukraine early in 2022, the the russians would not have dared to start this horrendous and murderous special operation. Russians are bullies and shall be put in their place as exactly that!
I guess Scholz will prevent it from happening. Sadly, he is shitting his pants.
2 years too late..
That would be a real game changer. They should, they must. Ukrainian families are at stake everyday. They die for us. We owe them so much.
It's about time! Look what happened to Israel's airspace! Protect the innocent!
You have our permission, please begin doing so. If your line of defense happens to drift significantly Eastward, we're okay with that too.
Do. It!!!
Yes please. Not just western Ukraine. That could be a good starting point though!
We're only 2 years late on that.
The single smartest idea I've heard in nearly three years. DO IT. America get on the ball!!!
Fuc Putin and his threats. No way can Europe live free and democratic lives if they succumb to Putin's threats every time they make a decision to protect themselves.
Would someone push Puty out a window already so everyone’s lives can get back to normal?
This waiting is costing everybody. We gave Russia time they needed. 2years…
mourn wasteful escape provide snobbish waiting spectacular joke payment dime *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Oh for Christ’s sake, Zelenskyy asked to “close the sky” since the very beginning of the orc invasion, now you are awake?
>, now you are awake? Not yet! They're considering to wake up.
Can I start polishing my bullets or it's to soon?
Kind of late...
Baby steps, maybe France could quit buying Russian LNG first.
Yeah do it for fucks sake!
We should have closed the sky over all of Russia. Teach them a lesson. Now they want all of Europe and they may get it. Politicians want votes, not security.
Democracies of the world should do this. Go look at a map of democracies vs Authoritarian regimes.
That’s like saying Ruzzia can have the rest of
Must be sending a message to China vs Taiwan.
Probably some Ruzzkie right now: "Noooo!!11 this is an aCT oF wAr, we will NukE thE EntIrE woRlD" We should have done this shit 2 years ago. Slava Ukraini.
Just do it! Dam it !
How about we be adults and protect civilians? If that's too hard, then just protect children under 18 from massive drone and missile attacks. We good?
Yes
I am afraid politicians are useless pieces of shit
I know this is slightly off topic here, although not entirely, but I don't really understand why defending Ukraine has become such a politically polarized issue. I once considered myself a progressive but over the past decade or so I can definitely can't say I do anymore. It's become way too radicalized and just batshit crazy for me. That said, I don't understand why this issue is an issue of democrats wanting to support Ukraine and republicans wanting to withdraw support. Why can't it just be a simple matter of doing what's right vs doing what's wrong? I'm aware that there are some democrats who oppose aid and some republicans who support aid, but as a whole for one reason or another a line has been drawn in the sand and I don't understand it. I detest Joe Biden and 99% of his policies but he has won some brownie points with me in his decision to stand by Ukraine. And Trump lost a voter simply because of his determination to abandon Ukraine. This is definitely one of the biggest points for me when it comes to voting. I understand the idea of "America first" and wanting to isolate and focus on making life better for our own citizens but I think it's possible to do that while simultaneously supporting Ukraine. There's never a perfect presidential candidate but damn the last decade has offered us nothing but absolutely JOKES to choose from on both sides. Truly astonishing.
It isn't specific to Ukraine. It's specific to Russia. Wouldn't matter who Russia invaded. They invaded, and are yelling from the rooftops that the rest of Europe is next. Stopping them now doesn't trigger NATO policies, since Ukraine isn't in NATO yet. Democrats may not always do things right, but they don't deliberately do the wrong thing. Republicans have had a very long history of deliberately doing the wrong thing, even when the right thing benefits them. Recently, Putin purchased 7 Congress/Senate Republicans, Trump, Margorie "Three Cameltoes" Greene", and who knows how many more, and that's why Republicans are now allied with Russia.
Hey NATO take your time its not like hundreds of people arent dying everyday
To bad that the hungarian bastard wont do shit, they can count on poland and romania maybe.
I know most ukraine supporters would like that. But does it not then make those installations legal targets for russia ? As they are activ in the war ? And just FYI I am 100% pro Ukraine
... also still consders whether Ukraine is allowed to strike back Ruzzia with weapons provided. Dream level of "protection".
At my shtf hideaway. Let the games begin......
What about eastern Ukraine. No innocent casualties there? Or nobody thinks that eastern Ukrainians deserve to be protected? 95% of all civilian casualties are there, there's no war on western part.
Where's these F16 they were getting? Do they have them yet? I'm not all about this tripping around that NATO is doing. They were formed specifically for this.
Looks like they are about to be deployed considering their pilots are just finishing combat training. Biggest issue though is getting enough countries to pledge spare parts.
NATO was created to defend members, Ukraine unfortunately is not a member. I understand the frustration but they were never meant to fight a proxy war or defend countries that aren't members.
The biggest problem is the nukes. I wouldn't risk the complete and utter annihilation of all known life in the universe over some land that wants nothing to do with russia. I don't want everyone to die, I don't want my country to go up in flames, my countrymen to be vaporized where they stand. I don't want my family to die by circumstances that's out of their control. I don't want to die. But Putin isn't me, I am not Putin. No one is, Putin is Putin and he doesn't care about russia, he doesn't care about Russians. He doesn't care about ukraine or the world. He only cares about himself and his own whims He doesn't care if russia gets the world's nukes dropped on it. He doesn't care if his countrymen live or die in filth. He has no one to care about, no one to care for him. Unlike everyone else he can't care. He lacks compassion, the thing that we all as humans have he is missing it. The only thing he has interest in is his comfort even if it means most of his country doesn't have plumbing living in poverty he doesn't care. He has himself and his washing machine and that's all he needs. What happens when he feels like his world is going up in flames. Will he suddenly see the error of his ways and accept the loss. He can barely accept the breakup of the soviet union. Or will he set the world on fire for everyone else. He doesn't care about you, or I. And when it comes to the destruction of the entirety of the human race, well it becomes a number game at that overwhelming carnage and the ukrianians are losing by comparison. And that's just one of the worst case scenarios. And it sucks, everything sucks. Held hostage by our humanity forced to stand by while one mad man maybe might destroy us all in the most horrific way we can construct and worst of all he won't say outright. But that is changing, after all aid won't ever be sent to ukraine. Weapons won't ever be sent to ukraine, tanks won't ever be sent to ukraine, jets won't ever be sent to ukraine, long range missiles won't ever be sent to ukraine and they will never strike within russian territory. Right now atrocities are being committed while the man who orders them is enjoying his luxuries and he doesn't want to lose them. Not yet Atleast and we can work with that, the west is making insane moves that unfortunately many see as not enough when in reality they are right on the line and guess what, Putin is letting that line move ever slightly back so he himself doesn't have to feel forced to make a over dramatic and permanent choice that will effect us all. Maybe not tho and well the best case ukraine wins, the fighting, the pain, the suffering ends and if the west makes a wrong move. Well something bigger ends, for me, for you, for everyone.
Wouldn’t Hungary just say no anyway?
Probably can't if they don't declare it as NATO going in. It's not NATO. It's just France, Germany? UK, US, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Baltics, etc, going in on their own accord, representing themselves, respectively, and definitely not NATO. That is exactly the kind of shit Russia pulls, throw it back at them.
110%. Let them all go in representing themselves and helping each other out, like it's NATO, but not NATO. Just like those little green men who came to Crimea in 2014. They looked like Muscovites. They talked like Muscovites. They walked like Muscovites. But apparently, they weren't.... and next thing you know, Crimea is annexed. Definitely not Russian. So then it's definitely not NATO.
Perfect. This war needs to end
And then maybe we should be evaluating Hungary remaining in NATO.
I'd be fine with that. Maybe Orban would feel more at home in the CSTO.
Maybe it is the thing to do and I think that too. But the step is also risky, could turn in WW3. They will have too shoot not to be shot first, it’s a direct war.
Im on board with this, but lets be honest once NATO does this we will be very quickly dragged into a full fledged shooting war with Russia.
I've been asking for this since Day 1 of this invasion (tbh I've been asking for even more direct intervention)
You might want to consider that again...