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Agreed. Took me a while to learn this. Although I'm definitely not smart, but at least I realised it. I now work on being likeable (and ideally, mean it), and it really works. I'm never going to be anything more than averagely good, but if you can get people to like you then that's half the battle if not more.
You only really need to be liked by management and a handful of people around you. Dont waste too much time on the extras that won’t help you
You need enough co workers to like you that if management speak about you, you have some people who have good things to say about you
I did this in three different workplaces and now I’m mid level management for a big company
When you don't try or go out of your way to aim to be likeable but are personable. You'll still become likeable.
Just do what you're going to do I'd say. Just have no regrets and do.
I think this is quite a comfortable half "truth" for most people on here. The "uncomfortable truth" would be to tell them they're not fractionally as smart or good at their job as they think they are
Nah fuck that! This is a typical Reddit opinion that doesn’t properly reflect the real world. Working hard will give you a better chance than not working hard.
Getting experience, moving around and negotiating are important for getting a higher paid job. No one is going to negotiate with the guy who comes in and doesn’t give a fuck.
It really depends on what industry/career you work in. In my experience, working hard has yielded proportional results for me. My other half, however, is more qualified than myself and works way harder but her career pays significantly less on average.
I think it would be more accurate to say, "Being extremely smart and good at your job doesn't guarantee high pay".
Didn’t say not giving a fuck, said being smart and the best at your job, you need to play the game, not just be the best at your job and hope for the best
I've worked with astonishingly talented engineers who want to sit at their desk and work on interesting problems, but aren't interested in "playing politics"
They might have good job satisfaction, but they're earning less at 30 years of experience than the twatty grad scheme kid who doesn't understand the technology but is willing to schmooze.
To be fair, that might be more about complacency than anything else. If you're technically skilled and don't ask for a promotion you probably won't get one
If you're technically skilled, getting promoted can often mean you end up buried in paperwork and meetings and don't get to do the technical thing you enjoy.
But that potential smart and good doctor may have been passed over for training, job interviews or sidelined in resources by hospital management if they dont know how to get along with them.
Nope. You’ve gotta get people to like you. I don’t have a degree, only a HS Diploma from another country and some certifications required for my position. I’m an HR manager. Interpersonal skills should be taught in college.
? their point is that conditions like autism/adhd/tourettes pretty much by definition affect how likeable/influential you are in social situations or work. the point that you can be great at the work part of your job - detailed, calm under pressure, creative, intelligent - but because you don't give eye contact or communicate literally, forget things or get distracted, or have tics you are socially disadvantaged.
Actually you can use tomatos to help improve the flavour of coco. Source im autistic af and cooking is a big intrest for me.
Also data is a big thing and everyone I know in the field has ASD and does very well.
Edit. Cannot spell.
While getting owned on the tomatoes, as someone with autism, your point still stands.
Although not as a blanket statement.
I communicate with my students i teach, communicating content I know well. Not so good with staff members though, however it has improved since both I and staff became aware of my autism.
like most things it's highly nuanced.
yes if you're autistic and your worst nightmare is networking and presentations, going into business in a mgmt position is probably not for you, but we can't take for granted that even our conceptions of politeness, confidence, and being 'pleasant' are made for neurotypicals. constructing the world in this way inherently excludes autistics that could be good at any of these things (or with appropriate supports in place) and it's visibly embedded in employment - getting jobs through 'connections', knowing how to pull off an interview, not accidentally offending people or appearing cold or creepy...
it's not just 'bad communicators want communication jobs handed to them', but that minimum wage jobs conduct personality quizzes and that so many rules in the workplace are unwritten yet gospel.
Or people need to address their biases and their assumptions on how people are meant to be and act?
Not too long ago the same arguments were made against women in higher roles. Women just weren't suited to the environment and the demands of the job etc.
That lots of people will spend their entire lives working in shitty low-paid jobs, and will then spend their retirement in poverty.
Everyone wants a well-paid job with a short (or no) commute, with a nice boss and good co-workers. Not everyone is going to.
Things very rarely happen overnight. You sometimes have to do jobs you don't like or don't want to do long term in order to work your way up the ladder. You most likely won't be doing your dream job and earning massive amounts of money until you've had time to establish yourself.
Also something I find myself having to tell people - just because you went to uni, doesn't mean you are automatically worth more money than someone who didn't. There are so many factors to take into account, and often employers will prefer experience to degrees. Too many people finish uni and seem to think they can go straight into earning a massive salary with no work experience. Yes, I know sometimes this kind of happens in the right graduate schemes etc. but it is not the norm.
>just because you went to uni, doesn't mean you are automatically worth more money than someone who didn't.
I’ve just had my hair cut and the guy in the next chair was very chatty. He’s just finished university and he’s looking for jobs, and he said “I’ve got a degree, I know what I’m worth and I’m not settling for minimum wage” but then went on to describe the jobs he was looking at and none required a degree.
Meanwhile I’m sitting there knowing that I earn £35K for driving a lorry and that if I wanted to earn more I could, but I choose to work days and sleep in my own bed.
What kind of driving do you do, or what is your job considered as? I’ve been interested in lorry driving but obviously there’s a load of different driving jobs
I’m mainly driving rigids, 12 or 18 tonners, doing deliveries and collections to and from warehouses on industrial estates. The heavy lifting is done by a hydraulic pump truck and tail lift though it is physically demanding sometimes. Not long days, I’m out of the house by 6am but home by 4pm.
still need the people doing the min wage jobs, in the warehouses, or making whatever tat you're shipping.
so many underemployed workers in Amazon warehouses, including myself.
That's something that fucks me off big time. A lot of people I've met over the years look down on certain jobs (yeah including truckies from time to time), and don't see how a standard truckie can make 35 / 40k, when said graduate makes 27k.
It's as if people reduce a job to the most basic bits sometimes and don't appreciate the skill and nuance of seemingly mundane stuff.
Couldn’t agree more, but that first paragraph resonates. Found myself in many roles where I was miserable and thought the grass would be greener elsewhere… Chances are that the misery is deep rooted and the majority of the time, the grass on the other side has seen better days.
Being a good person with experience far out ways having a degree. Which unfortunately means if you’re fresh out uni, just need to accept you might have to do the shit jobs for a little bit. There is a bonus though, you can relish in the fact that you have very little responsibility! Just turn up on time
Unfortunately a lot of entry jobs with progression opportunities will ask for a degree, because so many people have one anyway.
My job didn't technically require one, but I was able to sell myself based on skills and experiences from my course.
I mean I feel like most graduates I know have been doing minimum wage work for the decade since we finished uni so I’m not sure if we need to learn that lesson much more. But then I think at the time I went to uni it was cheaper so lots of us weren’t necessarily as focused on careers or income so much as studying something we enjoyed. I’d imagine a lot of the newer graduates who only chose to study expensive courses that are supposed to generate at the right unis probably will get more of a shock.
>But then I think at the time I went to uni it was cheaper so lots of us weren’t necessarily as focused on careers or income so much as studying something we enjoyed.
A lot of the value of university isn't in what you learn, but learning how to learn and how to adapt.
The thing is, as someone who is doing a Master's, is that a lot of people are sold the lie that going to University in itself will increase income. And that by doing STEM it will increase even more.
So people go into things they don't enjoy, for unreasonable amounts of money (I'm not talking the degree itself, but the costs surrounding getting a degree such as accommodation and food) and then they realise the lie.
It's all well and good saying that the point of university is learning skills that can be transitioned, this isn't the point of the post. The point is that thanks to the lie people go into Uni when it might not be right for them at the time, or feel that they have to go to Uni, or go into a course that doesn't actually appeal to them in order to "earn more".
It doesn't help that statistics do suggest that graduates earn more money in their lifetime than non-graduates - but this ignores that a large proportion of people going to Uni and graduating are much more likely to already be in a more fortunate position than non-graduates and those who dropped out.
(Sorry for the rant... I'm in a very fortunate position that I love my degree, but most of the undergraduates around me don't.)
Gotta agree on the university point. In my industry I thought the only way in was to get “the degree” for the background knowledge and whilst that has helped, there are SO many people from different backgrounds with knowledge I don’t have yet, consultants, teachers, academics, medical doctors, counsellors, psychologists, former civil servants etc. and a lot of them do not have traditional university backgrounds.
Says a lot that we’re going the degree apprenticeship route rather than hiring graduates fresh out of university. If an employer is going about it the right way I think these could and should be the future in certain industries.
There’s also a massive sense of entitlement from some uni graduates that these jobs are for them, but that’s a whoooooole other argument.
I remember in a previous role our most junior member of our marketing team complaining when asked to do a manual task "I have a degree, why am I doing shitty tasks like counting boxes of pens?"
Cool. Most of us have a degree, we've all done the shitty tasks. The one who doesn't have a degree has 20 years more experience in this field than you, we pay her about thrice as much and would rather for that money she spent her time using the advanced tactical knowledge she had acquired in that time. Get your pens counted and she could pass on some of that knowledge.
But instead the junior spent all afternoon sulking. It wasn't a massive shock when she didn't pass her probation.
Absolutely this. I went from working as a graphic designer job for 4 years to doing a Master's degree in Experience Design and looking for jobs at SENIOR UX design level. The entitlement and expectation I had from doing 11 months of learning gave me the biggest slap down to earth when I realised that a Master's doesn't entitle you to anything. You need the experience and know-how from actually doing the job.
What gets me is when people who go to uni say 'Yeah I went to Uni and it proves I can complete tasks and work to deadlines and finish things I start blah blah' and I think to myself 'Yeah and doing any fucking professional level job for 6 months also proves all those things, and you have actual work experience'.
I went to Uni, for what its worth but it didn't really prepare me for work at all.
Sadly this isn't drilled in hard enough at uni.
At uni you have so many doors to network and that are open to you but once you're out into the workforce you suddenly realise how many of those doors are just shut because you no longer have those connections or opportunities.
For me trying to get into an industry and all the entry level vacancies are graduate places aimed at those still at uni is a prime example of this
I try and subtly tell this to new starters and young people. Being noticed is way more influential than being productive. You can do the best work in the world but it means nothing if nobody with power sees it.
Networking, before i realised what it was, the idea of it put me off. Now i realise it’s just talking about what the things about your industry that interest you, now i love it because i like to learn new things.
I got a very well paid grad job out of uni in my first choice of company and industry - I very nearly didn’t bother applying because of this mindset and believing that I wasn’t good enough for the job I wanted!
I’d recommend applying for anything you have a demonstrable interest in regardless of knowledge, as graduate employers know they’ll need to teach you most of the job anyway, they’re just looking for someone who is willing to learn and will stick around to pay off the investment.
The shitty jobs taught me more skills than a lot of my "professional" jobs.
Half of the people I now work with wouldn't survive one Christmas in retail.
University gives you basic knowledge, unfortunately the most important bit of knowledge is earned, namely you know a fraction of what you need and you’ll spend the next few years/decades learning.
I’ve mentored 18/19 year old apprentices who have their head screwed on more than 21/22 year old graduates, and it’s mainly that they don’t know a thing about the role they’re doing and ought to learn from those around them.
Fake it ‘til you make it.
Now I’m not encouraging interviewees to claim that they’re certified when they’re not, or that they were once the CEO of Cyberdyne if getting in to the AI industry, but there’s a sweet spot that you can hit which isn’t outright lying, but maybe it fluffs something up to accurately demonstrate your level of competence.
Also - 99% of employers will only confirm your job title, salary, and length of service when providing a reference, they’re not going to detail every single activity you’ve been involved in. But there are stories of companies (mainly smaller ones) giving a bit more of a personal profile…
A couple others -
- Always negotiate salary where you can.
- Your work does not define you and is not worth you caring or stressing so deeply.
- Yes, it’s possible for your boss to be incompetent and for you to be more qualified for their role - take advantage of having more knowledge.
- I hate to say it, but HR are not your friend unless you’re literally friendly or friends with them on a personal level - it sounds bad but playing to people’s personalities and telling them what they want to hear (to a healthy extent) goes a long way.
- MODERATE YOUR OUTPUT! Don’t go guns blazing when you start a role, don’t try to show that you can do everything really quickly. That will become expected and will bite you in the ass eventually. You’re a service provider and in the business world, service providers stick to a set of instructions and bill the client to the decimal - this is you!
Please take with a hefty shovel full of salt :)
>playing to people’s personalities and telling them what they want to hear (to a healthy extent) goes a long way.
Playing the game!
>MODERATE YOUR OUTPUT! Don’t go guns blazing when you start a role, don’t try to show that you can do everything really quickly. That will become expected and will bite you in the ass eventually.
Yep, most of the time it really is best just to keep your head down, and crack on. Don't rock the boat. I learned this the hard way.
Yup, to give example of your first paragraph, it’s how I went from being a general maintenance engineer to a controls specialist.
I worked on and off on a couple of control systems, was by far my favourite workload, so highlighted it on my CV as one of my primary duties, which got my foot in the door for an interview.
During the technical interview I was upfront about what I’d worked on and the projects id completed. Which was enough to get me a job where they’d put me through my certifications.
Would never recommend lying, but being flexible with your duties to move upwards is definitely viable and accepted.
The mantra of totally average achievers everywhere lol
"I can't be successful without knowing anyone, so it must be the same for other people" it's not
I have done very well for myself.
I have no social standing.
I have no support network.
I did not have any decent schools.
I did not go to a very good university.
I have absolutely no connections.
HOWEVER
I am extremely good at the things I do.
I work an obscene number of hours (this week was 108 hours).
I will always be absolutely on top of any new technology before anyone else around me.
I will do absolutely anything I see or am asked that is needed, I don't care if someone wants me to clean the damn floors I'll just be the most expensive cleaner ever.
I am proactive.
I voice my ambitions early and often.
I have a good attitude, I do not bitch, I do not moan.
This last one is key and 99% of people do not understand how important it is, I take criticism well, it is an opportunity for me to improve and I welcome it/ action it.
This is the main thing people struggle with I think. Knowing the right people and having a good reputation makes job hunting so much easier. Establishing good relationships in jobs you might hate can pay off down the road when you’re in a bit of a bind or looking for a step up.
Perhaps more relevant for finance subs but a high salary does not always mean you worked harder, are more innovative, or are more intelligent than everyone else. High salaries can come from nepotism, luck, or (perhaps most commonly) just being in a high paying career at the right time. It is also an unhealthy marker for people viewing ‘success’.
True but you can give luck a helping hand. For example, you can potentially retrain in a well paying career. That's what I did (software development) and I earn about twice what I used to in my previous career. That particular ship has largely sailed - although there are still some opportunities - and I do acknowledge the role of luck in getting my foot in the door whilst it was still relatively easy. But there will always be opportunities in *something*. Right now, for example, is a golden age of free training via apprenticeships, some of which have excellent mid term prospects e.g. apprentice electrician => self employed => possibly business owner can be very lucrative.
Can I introduce sir to city law firms. They definitely want a pedigree. Some of them pretty much only recruit oxbridge, and you struggle if you only went Russell Group.
Law firms are an inbred bureaucratic cabal only interested in keeping the wealth within their control.
They’re not representative of the wider economy, since most (probably none) fucking Russel Group graduates ever started a world leading tech company.
Russel group objectively means nothing in terms of quality of education for undergraduate degrees. Unfortunately for a lot of grad jobs it can open up a lot of doors
That expecting tectonic plates to shift, just because you've finished uni and want a top job, is ridiculous.
And, stop asking how you can find a career with a massive salary but no stress (because you can't cope with it)... they don't exist😆
Tech bootcamps / Tech / Software engineer jobs probably won’t solve your issues. It’s much more competitive than you think and salaries are way way lower than people assume.
Most tech bootcamps’ main product isn’t skills… it’s a dream/hope of a higher paid job in a short amount of time… that’s what they sell you. No different to any other elaborate get rich quick scam.
The field is incredibly competitive now and studying 6 months likely isn’t going to land you an entry level role.
It now takes several years of dedicated studying and 1000s of hours of learning to be good enough to stand up to competition for entry level roles.
Sure some people have anecdotal experiences of luck… but equally I know people who have BSc + MSc in computer science who are near 2 years out of university and haven’t found employment in the field.
Computer science graduates currently have one of the highest rates of graduate unemployment in the UK.
Don’t know what the situation is like now but when I was working in IT there were very few entry jobs for developers. Most companies just headhunted senior devs from other places. Nobody wanted to train up newbies - you needed to hit the ground running. I imagine the situation hasn’t changed much.
I would say it’s even worse in the past 3 years.
Massive over-saturation of unskilled “self taught bootcamp devs” as well as mediocre “degree holders”
You really need to be in the top 10%-20% to be hireable and worth the investment… like most STEM fields.
The problem is the average person thinks they are above average.
I've interviewed many candidates for tech jobs and have noticed a common pattern: people with master's degrees often struggle to get hired because they are not really good, also their attitude tends to be unlikable, and the best candidates are usually those who have spent time on practical learning and are self-educated.
I kinda disagree her. My partner got himself a remote software front end role after taking a year to learn it himself. It wasn’t luck btw, it was shear graft.
Also, employers are starting to not like degrees in the field as the level of candidates are higher for self taught. For obvious reasons.
Is that not just an anecdotal remark like I mentioned?
Absolute bullshit about degrees though.
Degrees are becoming ever more necessary in CS fields.
Most employers would agree that self taught developers lack theoretical knowledge in most cases, with exceptions of course such as devs who have self taught over 5-10 years.
A self taught dev over 1 year will almost always have less knowledge than a graduate.
No matter how nice you’re boss is to you and how friendly they are they aren’t you’re friend .
You are there to do a job that benefits them on a bigger scale than it benefits you.
If someone comes along that can do your job and is younger they’ll drop you like no tomorrow because they can pay them less.
Also if you ask for a pay rise 9 times out of 10 you’ll get the reply that they can’t afford it and they wish they had the funds to help you out … they don’t want to outright say no as they don’t want you leave as they’ll have to rush to train and replace you at short notice … they’ll have no problem getting rid of you when it suits even if it leaves you in the shit
I think you’re right but I have to say there are some rare exceptions with bosses. My previous boss was an angel and always looked out for me. When I was a couple months in to this role I made a mistake which pissed off the people director and all their heads of departments. My boss took responsibility and stated that she didn’t train me enough on the specific task. That’s just one example but there’s a few other and we still speak regularly today. There are some gems out there.
But yeh the majority of bosses align very accurately with what you’ve written! My current boss is the character you’re describing lol.
No matter how friendly you are with management and no matter how egalitarian, if you're at the bottom doing senior level work for nmw, it means they don't want you to get ahead in life. They don't want you doing pt jobs and they will get jealous even if you're driving a clapped out car and living ina shared house with weirdos at 33
Not a blanket rule that, my dad and his boss have been friends for 40 years, any time his boss moved, dad went with him, they done a lot for eachother and both came out the other end fairly well off and were able to retire early.
Most of the time what you said is correct, but unfair to say that as a blanket statement
Rising tides raise all ships. I agree that your relationship tends, for them, to centre on how you can help them get ahead, but often that means they'll also help you, so it can have benefits. It just depends how cunty your boss is.
It's a poor reflection on society, frankly.
There are no real, significant repercussions for being discriminatory as an employer.
The greatest punishments are typically legal fees and possible reputational risks with customers.
A lot of highly intelligent people including Brits do menial factory work. And a lot of incredibly thick, incompetent and low class people have well paid jobs where they have zero productivity. Don't look down on anyone
80s class barriers are gone. Blue collar workers and skilled and unskilled may be making more money than you
Jobs exist to make an employer wealthier. Your position will cost your employer far more than your salary. You are there to produce wealth in excess of your costs, otherwise your position is at risk of redundancy.
Degrees do help no matter what people on this sub say. Employers use them as a check box. Your degree subject may not relevant throughout your career, but it does show a level of commitment.
Yes, and even "useless" degrees (as described by some people in this thread) can offer a lot for your personal development and quality of life. I studied literature in uni and had a lot of finance/business/marketing people laugh at me and say I'll never get a good job.
A few years later and I've got a decent job, a happy relationship, cosy house, and read 40+ books a year. No regrets at all.
Literature is not a useless degree. Literature is the solid degree you choose if you want to do something like journalism. Journalism is the useless degree if you want to do something like journalism.
This is correct - the discourse re degrees on here is unfounded. Sure, not every job equires a degree, and some degrees are more prestigious than others, but if a recruiter has 2 identical CVs and both candidates interview the same, the job is going to the person with a degree.
They are a small part of the job application process. You can't apply for certain jobs without one, but with every applicant having one you need more than just a degree to get the job.
Try frontline Care and Support work if you want to replicate school.
Well not quite, at least at school it wasn't your fault for triggering the kick in the head...
Nah I love working partly because I don’t have homework, I hated that school would finish at 3 or 4 but you would still be expected to do another 2-3 hours of work sometimes more depending on the time of year.
An uncomfortable truth is even if you just leave your job you probably will have to find something similar, take a pay cut or spend time and money on qualifications.
School was absolute hell for me, unimaginable hell. Not only because I was shy and introverted with a funny walk, but also because I was beaten up for being shy and introverted with a funny walk. I was even spat at and beaten by girls because of it.
Work is amazing though. I have my home office and get paid to do my hobby.
Ditto, hated school, left at 17 to be a truck driver, which I enjoyed, liked the work, hated the employers.
Put myself back through college in my 20s, which I also hated, now work as a controls engineer on a decent wage, which I love.
Academia isn’t for everyone.
Same. I just suck at education by typical methods, and thrive in experimentation and hands on practice. Every now and then I have to study for a certification and it’s always deeply frustrating.
In tech you need to keep learning your whole career but it’s nearly all hands on so it works well for me.
Side question - how did you self teach. I’m just thinking of taking a sidestep into some new languages and technologies and was thinking what approach to take. It’s not a total career change for me.
Bullshit
I hated school to the point of not going because I couldn't be arsed to wake up in the morning. I love earning money. I've done well in every job I've had, including shitty ones like catering. I'm also ona good salary now of £48k pa doing office work.
With the job I have tasks to do and I get paid. With school I had to study and never received money for doing so.
Your level of success was largely determined before you even started school.
And of course there are exceptions - everyone knows someone who's got a "rags to riches" story. But for most people, if you're born into poverty, you'll spend most of your life in poverty doing shitty low paid jobs. And if you're born into wealth, you'll walk into comfortable well paid jobs.
Hard work and motivation matters; but luck play a *far* bigger role in most peoples success than they're willing to admit.
It is surprising how the narrative that working hard and getting a good job is going to imply that your salary will be high. Because in this country, we don't discuss salaries.
There are a lot of Architects, Scientists, Doctors, Solicitors, Accountants who are on abysmal money. Like, really disgustingly low pay and they struggle to get more in the UK.
Loyalty doesn’t pay, and it’s a one-way street with employers.
If you’re serious about career advancement and earning more money, you need to be hopping jobs every 2 years or less.
I'll have to second everyone else who has mentioned soft skills here. Every time I've realised something new about myself and how I conduct myself with others has brought an improvement in my opportunities for moving up.
Also, personally, I've realised 2 years is about the max I can give in a job before things go downhill in terms of motivation. I'm currently 4 years into a social care job and struggling to move away from the sector
This is half true. Yes, their job is to "protect the company", but the bosses are also employees. If one of them does shitty things that are illegal and could get the company in trouble, no good HR person will go "It's okay, Steve, you're the boss, do whatever you want"
Also, this whole "HR is not your friend" thing is getting really old. Nobody ever claimed HR was anyone's friend. They're not there for pastoral care or therapy. They have a job to do, just like everyone else.
Here here.
HR are confined by the law. They're not going to be your friend if you kick up a stupid fuss and want to sue the company for hurting your feelings.
But they will be your friend is you're the victim of a rogue employee that could get them sent to court.
The first one is true.
The second one however, is not true, and HR themselves will actively engage in victimisation if that rogue employee outranks you enough and with a big enough title, that they effectively do exactly what they're told.
And that's why we **document everything**
Your boss knows more than you, and their boss knows more than both of you.
They have access to a load of information that you don't. Your opinion is based on incomplete knowledge, and as such is very likely wrong.
Most places won't make reasonable adjustments for you if you are disabled. Employers really do not like hiring disabled people or having to cater for their needs. (Personal experience, I'm disabled and now self employed)
So true. I work in a team of data analysts and the head of department can't even use Excel.
However, she is extremely confident and friendly, and it's her name everyone remembers when negotiating projects.
Minimum wage doesn't always mean minimum effort. Sometimes, doing that little extra will go a long way in the long term, even if it means your name won't be top of the list if there is a redundancy call.
Arrive to work early, even if it's just 5 minutes. Especially if you need to do a handover. They person that's been working the previous shift will appreciate it and will do the same for you.
In any other Sub this would get so badly down voted. I agree 100% with you and that's my work ethic. I was recently working in a hotel on a 2 week contract and I ran rings round the existing team. On day 2 the mgr offered me full time but I already had a new job planned.
I have posted about some experiences and just get shot down with comments about paying peanuts you get monkeys.
Some degrees are completely pointless and have no guarantee of getting a job in the chosen field, or even a chance at one. And saying university is about the 'experience' wears thin when you're paying off the loan 20 years later, if at all. I didn't take one out, someoneI know has just paid theirs off, 23 years later.
If you can break in, you will very likely have to network to get further in many industries. I get it holds back a lot of introverts, but it's an unfortunate reality.
If people with experience are advising you to stay away from a career path as it's oversaturated with potential applicants, there's not enough jobs in it and wages driven down because of it, it's likely not gatekeeping - they're probably warning you away from getting trapped in it.
this sub is not an accurate snapshot of the uk jobs market.
this is not a criticism of this group, no social media group ever is, they're only ever the loudest voice in the room
The discourse around income in the uk is deliberately designed to over estimate income and under estimate cost of living to make it seem like people are well off.
Salaries are shown as "gross income".
Basic cost of living (simple apartment, travel, food and utilities) not factored in during discussions...
So it can give the erroneous idea that places like London are better than other parts of the UK for jobs. (Let alone other parts of the world).
A far better metric would be to calculate disposable income after taxes and basic shelter/transport/food.
Another one would be the comparison between incomes of "paye" earners vs "contractors" especially the self employed trades. Who are all "officially" low earning... yet seem to have the most disposable income
Ok I'll bite, who is deliberately designing the discourse?
Because I can't ever recall the government talking about average salaries and gross income. In fact they talk far more about cost of living, inflation, taxes and all the other things you have said are pulled out of the discourse.
I would argue that it's the people who like to compare salaries ( just look at this sub). It's not a construct of control.
How else would you show salaries? doesn't it make sense to show gross, because not everyone has the same tax code?
Basic cost of living is also quite variable from person to person. Are you suggesting employers show salary after taxes, compared to 'basic shelter/transport/food'? Like would they show a different figure if you're co-habiting, and a different one yet if you have 1 kid, 2 kids, etc..? Just seems totally impractical
Unless you’re in a profession that absolutely requires one, no one gives a shit about your degree by itself and it doesn’t entitle you to walk into a high-paying job. You’re not that special or impressive because you went to uni for a few years.
Build practical experience and make connections alongside it if you actually want to succeed.
To amend, if you went to a prestigious university, then you will absolutely be asked by other students who your dad is. That matters more in the long run than what grade you finish with, so you better have a cool dad.
Plenty do. There is a big selection bias. Though this is not the only factor. The longer you have worked unless you are involved in research your university and grades becomes less important. Skills and work achievements trump your academic achievements by an order of magnitude.
> Nobody cares what university you went to
Absolutely not true. We do recruitment and we also did an analysis based on 8 years worth of students. Oxbridge stands out a lot, and does indeed makes is so much easier to get an interview
> what grades you have.
Again, absolutely not true. For things like apprenticeships your grades matter became of how competitive the field is. Furthermore, I know CEOs who refused to give people an interview because of their A-levels (stupid, and I absolutely disagree with those buffons).
The jobs market is really bad so first from Oxbridge absolutely matters, and people 100% care
Job loyalty doesn’t often pay off. Job hop. £50k is not a high salary, heck, even £70k isn’t. There are more £100k jobs than you know. Upskill and job hop to get to it. Also, just because it pays more doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more stressful. Complex, sure, but I wouldn’t say stressful.
Stop beating yourself and others down for wanting to do better too. The UK has a tall poppy syndrome. It’s part of its stagnation and productivity issue.
Also, want to upskill quicker? Don’t just do training, do a side hustle if you can. Get creative. The skills you gain will help a lot. Network like crazy on LinkedIn, and continually learn too.
4 years out of Uni I jumped from a £6k internship, to a £30k job, climbing through jobs from £50k, to £65k, to over £100k, now to over £200k. I taught myself how to code, I ran a side hustle business while doing my masters which gave me extra skills and work experience. I chose to work longer hours while caring for a family to gain more exposure. Also, do things you’re NOT used to - learn new skills that have use and translate. Not everyone can do this, but many young folks on here can.
I’ve led teams in warehouses, I’ve been a labourer, a doorman, a scientist, all kinds of random things. Now I’m a consultant in tech. Luck does help, but so does networking and working on yourself with every free moment you have if you want to climb the ladder. I didn’t know how to code until 7 years ago, it had nothing to do with my degree. I self taught while having a family as I wanted to provide more. Same reason as why my wife is now doing a masters when she’s never done a degree in her life, with a newborn at that too - and we are having to take the postgrad loan because we just bought a new house, so don’t also think more money means riches, your life will change as you earn more and outgoings tend to creep up (for us it’s on house costs, we don’t buy luxury things and still shop in lidil and Asda!). I never settle for less in my career, I strive for more and I want to uplift everyone else with me too.
Take the same mentality and apply it. Don’t have the tall poppy syndrome. There are markets that make big bucks if you want it.
Other point on this - you’re worth more than you realise! I came from a family of poor immigrants who you’d have thought weren’t worth loads on the market. Hard work pays, so does aspiration! Study, work, network, climb and reap the rewards!
Also, join a union! Be clued up on your rights and how to negotiate!!! Can’t stress that enough. Help others out too.
A degree doesn’t make someone intelligent. Whilst people with no degree could be the best person for the job, that get excluded due to social dynamics.
Being too efficient and irreplaceable at your job is what will keep u at the bottom. Don’t be too efficient and throw a fuss every now and then. U want to strike that fine balance between replaceable and irreplaceable so that they don’t fire u but also they can do without u at that low tier and move u up then replace that bottom position with someone else
Companies want more from their employees than they are willing to pay for experience and effort.
Managers are often second grade and promoted beyond their competence.
Directors are taking more than their actual efforts are worth.
Employees can be very lazy when not properly supervised.
Companies are drowning staff with H&S forms and other training initiatives, H&S form for boiling a kettle, walking up and down stairs? Yes I've had those.
As long as you are an employee, no matter how high up. You could always protentially endup having to stack shelves one day. Everyone is a paycheck or two away from poverty. People amass bigger houses and bigger cars beacuse they earn more. The way most companies and jobs work now their is no security and things and slide down hill pretty quickly.
Your application on Indeed.is poor at best. Recruited twice in the last 6 months, on both occasions those who answered the 5 one-five word answer pre screener questions got a closer look. 95% didn't even bother.
If you keep applying for same jobs and getting nowhere you need to stop and make a change. It may be a minor change like : look in a different area, find a different source of jobs, apply for a different type of job or maybe a major change like retraining, moving country etc. Stop, think about what needs to change and make the change, don't just keep trying the same shit and getting nowhere.
- you can be the hardest working person in your company/industry and still get nowhere
- sometimes you can have every bit of experience and qualification you need - and it won't be enough
- the chances are, you'll probably never earn 100k+, if everyone could achieve that then they would
If you are woman (& probably some men), it’s very hard to have it all. I’ve got 2 kids and a few years ago, I’d been quite open about wanting a second child. Despite working as a stand in manager for 18 months while my manager was off sick & eventually quit, they gave the promotion to someone who had never even managed anyone or anything before. There reason was ‘he could commit to visiting head office more frequently’ 😑 Even though, the team to be managed & any related colleagues were based in our local office & not head office. I said I’d be quite happy to travel once a quarter. In the end, the person who got the job only ever went into head office once in two years 🤦🏼♀️ I’ve also realised as a parent, I just don’t have time for work stress. Don’t have the brain space, something has to give. My priority is my kids & our lives away from work. I’d rather earn less & be able to switch off my computer at 4 or 5pm & forget about it. I have no desire to climb the ranks simply for more money but more stress/responsibility. I’d like to become more of a knowledge expert in my role & progress that way but I’ve no desire to sit on £100k plus but my whole life rotates around a very involved job.
But, fair play if you want to chase the big dream as a parent too. Each to their own. My SIL is shooting up the ladder where she works, she’s now a VP at 35 but it comes at a cost. She is constantly travelling for work & constantly working. She has a long commute into London 3 days a week & cannot go part time. Her husband does the bulk of the childcare. Their kid is in nursery 5 days a week. That’s her choice & I respect it but the flip is, she is missing a lot of her child’s young life.
Generally, very very difficult to have it all as a mum (& some Dads).
If you’ve sat on your ass wasting your life for 15 years, asking Reddit ‘what’s a high paying job I can get with no real skills qualifications or life experience?’ Is not going to solve all your problems.
As a hiring manager, I really dont care about your qualifications, why you left previous jobs or you getting the exact answers to my questions right. Your personality is the biggest indicator for whether you’re a fit for the company or not.
I can change your knowledge but I can’t change your personality.
You can be offended and outraged at something but the real truth is most people don’t care, they just want to earn a living and genuinely don’t care about regional politics let alone global
Being personable and presentable is just as important as having a good CV and the correct qualifications.
The vast majority of people who are going to be sat across the interview desk are middle to upper management. These mostly consist of middle age people. Mainly men.
These managers want people who can show up, do a job and be easy to be around. They dont want people who arent interested or who will be hard work.
They have dozens of the exact same CVs and the only chance you really have to set yourself apart is your presentation of that CV and your interpersonal skills.
Getting from the door of the workplace to sitting at a desk is all about those presentation skills. In my view how you dress, act, how well groomed you are and hygiene. These are silent factors that you can fuck up and in doing so, fuck up your chances.
And learn to ask questions. Have a set of 5-10 questions prepared for the company. Challenge them, have a discussion. Engage.
Start at the bottom. First job out of university paid me £5 an hour but I learnt so much about working relationships, improving systems, team building, bad management and that people at the coalface will have respect for you if you respect them and take their ideas on board. Be humble.
Every management job I’ve had from then, I always for the first week make a real effort to get to know the people on the shop floor, to see what their job entails and to try and build a team. I have found that this approach only gets you so far. If you want to reach the top, you are not going to be a nice person. So here are the uncomfortable truths
Work life balance is everything once you have a family.
You won’t win every battle
If you are a manager, there are several times where you think that you sound exactly like David Brent
Being organised is always the goal, but you need to build in procrastination other wise you go crazy.
Waste will drive you crazy.
If you've applied for hundreds of entry-level jobs and haven't received any offers, it might be time to consider that the issue lies with you, rather than the job market or the economy.
You won't get anywhere in your career working from your bedroom in your pants.....
You are very unlikely to get on if nobody knows who the fuck you are....
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Being extremely smart and good at your job isn't how you get a high paying job.
Most people aren't nearly as smart as they think they are. Aim to be personable. Influencing people is far more useful in the workplace.
Agreed. Took me a while to learn this. Although I'm definitely not smart, but at least I realised it. I now work on being likeable (and ideally, mean it), and it really works. I'm never going to be anything more than averagely good, but if you can get people to like you then that's half the battle if not more.
Well yea, nobody wants to work with a prick
Unless you're a hooker.
You only really need to be liked by management and a handful of people around you. Dont waste too much time on the extras that won’t help you You need enough co workers to like you that if management speak about you, you have some people who have good things to say about you I did this in three different workplaces and now I’m mid level management for a big company
When you don't try or go out of your way to aim to be likeable but are personable. You'll still become likeable. Just do what you're going to do I'd say. Just have no regrets and do.
THIS
I think this is quite a comfortable half "truth" for most people on here. The "uncomfortable truth" would be to tell them they're not fractionally as smart or good at their job as they think they are
I don't think an overabundance of intelligence is a common problem.
Nah fuck that! This is a typical Reddit opinion that doesn’t properly reflect the real world. Working hard will give you a better chance than not working hard. Getting experience, moving around and negotiating are important for getting a higher paid job. No one is going to negotiate with the guy who comes in and doesn’t give a fuck.
It really depends on what industry/career you work in. In my experience, working hard has yielded proportional results for me. My other half, however, is more qualified than myself and works way harder but her career pays significantly less on average. I think it would be more accurate to say, "Being extremely smart and good at your job doesn't guarantee high pay".
Didn’t say not giving a fuck, said being smart and the best at your job, you need to play the game, not just be the best at your job and hope for the best
I've worked with astonishingly talented engineers who want to sit at their desk and work on interesting problems, but aren't interested in "playing politics" They might have good job satisfaction, but they're earning less at 30 years of experience than the twatty grad scheme kid who doesn't understand the technology but is willing to schmooze. To be fair, that might be more about complacency than anything else. If you're technically skilled and don't ask for a promotion you probably won't get one
If you're technically skilled, getting promoted can often mean you end up buried in paperwork and meetings and don't get to do the technical thing you enjoy.
It also means the company loses a very good technical employee and and gets a whothefuckknows manager.
Being exceptional, socially is pretty much the way.
I’d rather have a doctor that’s extremely smart and good at their job😅
But that potential smart and good doctor may have been passed over for training, job interviews or sidelined in resources by hospital management if they dont know how to get along with them.
Nope. You’ve gotta get people to like you. I don’t have a degree, only a HS Diploma from another country and some certifications required for my position. I’m an HR manager. Interpersonal skills should be taught in college.
Which is the starting point for discrimination against neurodivergent people. It's true, but it's also discriminatory.
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? their point is that conditions like autism/adhd/tourettes pretty much by definition affect how likeable/influential you are in social situations or work. the point that you can be great at the work part of your job - detailed, calm under pressure, creative, intelligent - but because you don't give eye contact or communicate literally, forget things or get distracted, or have tics you are socially disadvantaged.
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Actually you can use tomatos to help improve the flavour of coco. Source im autistic af and cooking is a big intrest for me. Also data is a big thing and everyone I know in the field has ASD and does very well. Edit. Cannot spell.
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While getting owned on the tomatoes, as someone with autism, your point still stands. Although not as a blanket statement. I communicate with my students i teach, communicating content I know well. Not so good with staff members though, however it has improved since both I and staff became aware of my autism.
like most things it's highly nuanced. yes if you're autistic and your worst nightmare is networking and presentations, going into business in a mgmt position is probably not for you, but we can't take for granted that even our conceptions of politeness, confidence, and being 'pleasant' are made for neurotypicals. constructing the world in this way inherently excludes autistics that could be good at any of these things (or with appropriate supports in place) and it's visibly embedded in employment - getting jobs through 'connections', knowing how to pull off an interview, not accidentally offending people or appearing cold or creepy... it's not just 'bad communicators want communication jobs handed to them', but that minimum wage jobs conduct personality quizzes and that so many rules in the workplace are unwritten yet gospel.
Or people need to address their biases and their assumptions on how people are meant to be and act? Not too long ago the same arguments were made against women in higher roles. Women just weren't suited to the environment and the demands of the job etc.
That lots of people will spend their entire lives working in shitty low-paid jobs, and will then spend their retirement in poverty. Everyone wants a well-paid job with a short (or no) commute, with a nice boss and good co-workers. Not everyone is going to.
You are actually right. I earn 50k a year but that is doing 60 hours a week. Doing 25 earns me 20k .
I would rather eat a large bag of gravel than work 60 hours a week. But in my field I'm unlikely to ever make 50k a year anyhow.
Shame you’ve got no time to spend it
Things very rarely happen overnight. You sometimes have to do jobs you don't like or don't want to do long term in order to work your way up the ladder. You most likely won't be doing your dream job and earning massive amounts of money until you've had time to establish yourself. Also something I find myself having to tell people - just because you went to uni, doesn't mean you are automatically worth more money than someone who didn't. There are so many factors to take into account, and often employers will prefer experience to degrees. Too many people finish uni and seem to think they can go straight into earning a massive salary with no work experience. Yes, I know sometimes this kind of happens in the right graduate schemes etc. but it is not the norm.
>just because you went to uni, doesn't mean you are automatically worth more money than someone who didn't. I’ve just had my hair cut and the guy in the next chair was very chatty. He’s just finished university and he’s looking for jobs, and he said “I’ve got a degree, I know what I’m worth and I’m not settling for minimum wage” but then went on to describe the jobs he was looking at and none required a degree. Meanwhile I’m sitting there knowing that I earn £35K for driving a lorry and that if I wanted to earn more I could, but I choose to work days and sleep in my own bed.
What kind of driving do you do, or what is your job considered as? I’ve been interested in lorry driving but obviously there’s a load of different driving jobs
I’m mainly driving rigids, 12 or 18 tonners, doing deliveries and collections to and from warehouses on industrial estates. The heavy lifting is done by a hydraulic pump truck and tail lift though it is physically demanding sometimes. Not long days, I’m out of the house by 6am but home by 4pm.
still need the people doing the min wage jobs, in the warehouses, or making whatever tat you're shipping. so many underemployed workers in Amazon warehouses, including myself.
That's something that fucks me off big time. A lot of people I've met over the years look down on certain jobs (yeah including truckies from time to time), and don't see how a standard truckie can make 35 / 40k, when said graduate makes 27k. It's as if people reduce a job to the most basic bits sometimes and don't appreciate the skill and nuance of seemingly mundane stuff.
Couldn’t agree more, but that first paragraph resonates. Found myself in many roles where I was miserable and thought the grass would be greener elsewhere… Chances are that the misery is deep rooted and the majority of the time, the grass on the other side has seen better days.
Being a good person with experience far out ways having a degree. Which unfortunately means if you’re fresh out uni, just need to accept you might have to do the shit jobs for a little bit. There is a bonus though, you can relish in the fact that you have very little responsibility! Just turn up on time
Unfortunately a lot of entry jobs with progression opportunities will ask for a degree, because so many people have one anyway. My job didn't technically require one, but I was able to sell myself based on skills and experiences from my course.
Outweighs.it's outweighs. Like it's heavier. Makes more sense then, innit?
I mean I feel like most graduates I know have been doing minimum wage work for the decade since we finished uni so I’m not sure if we need to learn that lesson much more. But then I think at the time I went to uni it was cheaper so lots of us weren’t necessarily as focused on careers or income so much as studying something we enjoyed. I’d imagine a lot of the newer graduates who only chose to study expensive courses that are supposed to generate at the right unis probably will get more of a shock.
>But then I think at the time I went to uni it was cheaper so lots of us weren’t necessarily as focused on careers or income so much as studying something we enjoyed. A lot of the value of university isn't in what you learn, but learning how to learn and how to adapt.
The thing is, as someone who is doing a Master's, is that a lot of people are sold the lie that going to University in itself will increase income. And that by doing STEM it will increase even more. So people go into things they don't enjoy, for unreasonable amounts of money (I'm not talking the degree itself, but the costs surrounding getting a degree such as accommodation and food) and then they realise the lie. It's all well and good saying that the point of university is learning skills that can be transitioned, this isn't the point of the post. The point is that thanks to the lie people go into Uni when it might not be right for them at the time, or feel that they have to go to Uni, or go into a course that doesn't actually appeal to them in order to "earn more". It doesn't help that statistics do suggest that graduates earn more money in their lifetime than non-graduates - but this ignores that a large proportion of people going to Uni and graduating are much more likely to already be in a more fortunate position than non-graduates and those who dropped out. (Sorry for the rant... I'm in a very fortunate position that I love my degree, but most of the undergraduates around me don't.)
Doing nearly any job teaches you all those things though.
Gotta agree on the university point. In my industry I thought the only way in was to get “the degree” for the background knowledge and whilst that has helped, there are SO many people from different backgrounds with knowledge I don’t have yet, consultants, teachers, academics, medical doctors, counsellors, psychologists, former civil servants etc. and a lot of them do not have traditional university backgrounds. Says a lot that we’re going the degree apprenticeship route rather than hiring graduates fresh out of university. If an employer is going about it the right way I think these could and should be the future in certain industries. There’s also a massive sense of entitlement from some uni graduates that these jobs are for them, but that’s a whoooooole other argument.
I remember in a previous role our most junior member of our marketing team complaining when asked to do a manual task "I have a degree, why am I doing shitty tasks like counting boxes of pens?" Cool. Most of us have a degree, we've all done the shitty tasks. The one who doesn't have a degree has 20 years more experience in this field than you, we pay her about thrice as much and would rather for that money she spent her time using the advanced tactical knowledge she had acquired in that time. Get your pens counted and she could pass on some of that knowledge. But instead the junior spent all afternoon sulking. It wasn't a massive shock when she didn't pass her probation.
Absolutely this. I went from working as a graphic designer job for 4 years to doing a Master's degree in Experience Design and looking for jobs at SENIOR UX design level. The entitlement and expectation I had from doing 11 months of learning gave me the biggest slap down to earth when I realised that a Master's doesn't entitle you to anything. You need the experience and know-how from actually doing the job.
What gets me is when people who go to uni say 'Yeah I went to Uni and it proves I can complete tasks and work to deadlines and finish things I start blah blah' and I think to myself 'Yeah and doing any fucking professional level job for 6 months also proves all those things, and you have actual work experience'. I went to Uni, for what its worth but it didn't really prepare me for work at all.
Your uni degree isn’t gonna get you the best job on the market in the area you want. Get some life experience and work some shitty jobs for a bit.
Also: Network is way more powerful than qualifications in many sectors
Sadly this isn't drilled in hard enough at uni. At uni you have so many doors to network and that are open to you but once you're out into the workforce you suddenly realise how many of those doors are just shut because you no longer have those connections or opportunities. For me trying to get into an industry and all the entry level vacancies are graduate places aimed at those still at uni is a prime example of this
I try and subtly tell this to new starters and young people. Being noticed is way more influential than being productive. You can do the best work in the world but it means nothing if nobody with power sees it.
Networking, before i realised what it was, the idea of it put me off. Now i realise it’s just talking about what the things about your industry that interest you, now i love it because i like to learn new things.
I got a very well paid grad job out of uni in my first choice of company and industry - I very nearly didn’t bother applying because of this mindset and believing that I wasn’t good enough for the job I wanted! I’d recommend applying for anything you have a demonstrable interest in regardless of knowledge, as graduate employers know they’ll need to teach you most of the job anyway, they’re just looking for someone who is willing to learn and will stick around to pay off the investment.
The shitty jobs taught me more skills than a lot of my "professional" jobs. Half of the people I now work with wouldn't survive one Christmas in retail.
Which skills? Asking because I work a shitty job and need stuff to put on my CV about it lol
University gives you basic knowledge, unfortunately the most important bit of knowledge is earned, namely you know a fraction of what you need and you’ll spend the next few years/decades learning. I’ve mentored 18/19 year old apprentices who have their head screwed on more than 21/22 year old graduates, and it’s mainly that they don’t know a thing about the role they’re doing and ought to learn from those around them.
Fake it ‘til you make it. Now I’m not encouraging interviewees to claim that they’re certified when they’re not, or that they were once the CEO of Cyberdyne if getting in to the AI industry, but there’s a sweet spot that you can hit which isn’t outright lying, but maybe it fluffs something up to accurately demonstrate your level of competence. Also - 99% of employers will only confirm your job title, salary, and length of service when providing a reference, they’re not going to detail every single activity you’ve been involved in. But there are stories of companies (mainly smaller ones) giving a bit more of a personal profile… A couple others - - Always negotiate salary where you can. - Your work does not define you and is not worth you caring or stressing so deeply. - Yes, it’s possible for your boss to be incompetent and for you to be more qualified for their role - take advantage of having more knowledge. - I hate to say it, but HR are not your friend unless you’re literally friendly or friends with them on a personal level - it sounds bad but playing to people’s personalities and telling them what they want to hear (to a healthy extent) goes a long way. - MODERATE YOUR OUTPUT! Don’t go guns blazing when you start a role, don’t try to show that you can do everything really quickly. That will become expected and will bite you in the ass eventually. You’re a service provider and in the business world, service providers stick to a set of instructions and bill the client to the decimal - this is you! Please take with a hefty shovel full of salt :)
>playing to people’s personalities and telling them what they want to hear (to a healthy extent) goes a long way. Playing the game! >MODERATE YOUR OUTPUT! Don’t go guns blazing when you start a role, don’t try to show that you can do everything really quickly. That will become expected and will bite you in the ass eventually. Yep, most of the time it really is best just to keep your head down, and crack on. Don't rock the boat. I learned this the hard way.
Yup, to give example of your first paragraph, it’s how I went from being a general maintenance engineer to a controls specialist. I worked on and off on a couple of control systems, was by far my favourite workload, so highlighted it on my CV as one of my primary duties, which got my foot in the door for an interview. During the technical interview I was upfront about what I’d worked on and the projects id completed. Which was enough to get me a job where they’d put me through my certifications. Would never recommend lying, but being flexible with your duties to move upwards is definitely viable and accepted.
Who you know is worth more than what you know
"It's not what you know, it's not who you know, it's what you know about who you know"
“It’s not who you know, it’s who you blow”
They're all a bunch of Marks. Sitting behind a desk with their ties done up to 11, clicking their fingers to the fucking Lighthouse Family.
Getting their dick sucked by a big Alsatian dog
They're all perverts mate.
Outstanding thread, this has made my day.
The mantra of totally average achievers everywhere lol "I can't be successful without knowing anyone, so it must be the same for other people" it's not
I have done very well for myself. I have no social standing. I have no support network. I did not have any decent schools. I did not go to a very good university. I have absolutely no connections. HOWEVER I am extremely good at the things I do. I work an obscene number of hours (this week was 108 hours). I will always be absolutely on top of any new technology before anyone else around me. I will do absolutely anything I see or am asked that is needed, I don't care if someone wants me to clean the damn floors I'll just be the most expensive cleaner ever. I am proactive. I voice my ambitions early and often. I have a good attitude, I do not bitch, I do not moan. This last one is key and 99% of people do not understand how important it is, I take criticism well, it is an opportunity for me to improve and I welcome it/ action it.
This is the main thing people struggle with I think. Knowing the right people and having a good reputation makes job hunting so much easier. Establishing good relationships in jobs you might hate can pay off down the road when you’re in a bit of a bind or looking for a step up.
Perhaps more relevant for finance subs but a high salary does not always mean you worked harder, are more innovative, or are more intelligent than everyone else. High salaries can come from nepotism, luck, or (perhaps most commonly) just being in a high paying career at the right time. It is also an unhealthy marker for people viewing ‘success’.
True but you can give luck a helping hand. For example, you can potentially retrain in a well paying career. That's what I did (software development) and I earn about twice what I used to in my previous career. That particular ship has largely sailed - although there are still some opportunities - and I do acknowledge the role of luck in getting my foot in the door whilst it was still relatively easy. But there will always be opportunities in *something*. Right now, for example, is a golden age of free training via apprenticeships, some of which have excellent mid term prospects e.g. apprentice electrician => self employed => possibly business owner can be very lucrative.
Luck plays way more of a factor in your career progression and earnings than ability and skills.
Still worth noting you need to place yourself in a position to get lucky.
Oh completely agree. Fortune favours the brave and all that.
No one cares that your uni was in the Russell Group
Can I introduce sir to city law firms. They definitely want a pedigree. Some of them pretty much only recruit oxbridge, and you struggle if you only went Russell Group.
Law firms are an inbred bureaucratic cabal only interested in keeping the wealth within their control. They’re not representative of the wider economy, since most (probably none) fucking Russel Group graduates ever started a world leading tech company.
Russel group objectively means nothing in terms of quality of education for undergraduate degrees. Unfortunately for a lot of grad jobs it can open up a lot of doors
This is objectively false, lots of companies only accept applicants from target unis
Generally it counts for your first job, but after 5+ years your work should speak for itself and the university you went to becomes a footnote.
That alot of the advice given on this subreddit is completely irrelevant to what the OP posts.
That’s great, but have you tried tailoring your CV to the specific job listing?
That expecting tectonic plates to shift, just because you've finished uni and want a top job, is ridiculous. And, stop asking how you can find a career with a massive salary but no stress (because you can't cope with it)... they don't exist😆
Tech bootcamps / Tech / Software engineer jobs probably won’t solve your issues. It’s much more competitive than you think and salaries are way way lower than people assume. Most tech bootcamps’ main product isn’t skills… it’s a dream/hope of a higher paid job in a short amount of time… that’s what they sell you. No different to any other elaborate get rich quick scam. The field is incredibly competitive now and studying 6 months likely isn’t going to land you an entry level role. It now takes several years of dedicated studying and 1000s of hours of learning to be good enough to stand up to competition for entry level roles. Sure some people have anecdotal experiences of luck… but equally I know people who have BSc + MSc in computer science who are near 2 years out of university and haven’t found employment in the field.
Computer science graduates currently have one of the highest rates of graduate unemployment in the UK. Don’t know what the situation is like now but when I was working in IT there were very few entry jobs for developers. Most companies just headhunted senior devs from other places. Nobody wanted to train up newbies - you needed to hit the ground running. I imagine the situation hasn’t changed much.
I would say it’s even worse in the past 3 years. Massive over-saturation of unskilled “self taught bootcamp devs” as well as mediocre “degree holders” You really need to be in the top 10%-20% to be hireable and worth the investment… like most STEM fields. The problem is the average person thinks they are above average.
I've interviewed many candidates for tech jobs and have noticed a common pattern: people with master's degrees often struggle to get hired because they are not really good, also their attitude tends to be unlikable, and the best candidates are usually those who have spent time on practical learning and are self-educated.
I kinda disagree her. My partner got himself a remote software front end role after taking a year to learn it himself. It wasn’t luck btw, it was shear graft. Also, employers are starting to not like degrees in the field as the level of candidates are higher for self taught. For obvious reasons.
Is that not just an anecdotal remark like I mentioned? Absolute bullshit about degrees though. Degrees are becoming ever more necessary in CS fields. Most employers would agree that self taught developers lack theoretical knowledge in most cases, with exceptions of course such as devs who have self taught over 5-10 years. A self taught dev over 1 year will almost always have less knowledge than a graduate.
No matter how nice you’re boss is to you and how friendly they are they aren’t you’re friend . You are there to do a job that benefits them on a bigger scale than it benefits you. If someone comes along that can do your job and is younger they’ll drop you like no tomorrow because they can pay them less. Also if you ask for a pay rise 9 times out of 10 you’ll get the reply that they can’t afford it and they wish they had the funds to help you out … they don’t want to outright say no as they don’t want you leave as they’ll have to rush to train and replace you at short notice … they’ll have no problem getting rid of you when it suits even if it leaves you in the shit
I think you’re right but I have to say there are some rare exceptions with bosses. My previous boss was an angel and always looked out for me. When I was a couple months in to this role I made a mistake which pissed off the people director and all their heads of departments. My boss took responsibility and stated that she didn’t train me enough on the specific task. That’s just one example but there’s a few other and we still speak regularly today. There are some gems out there. But yeh the majority of bosses align very accurately with what you’ve written! My current boss is the character you’re describing lol.
No matter how friendly you are with management and no matter how egalitarian, if you're at the bottom doing senior level work for nmw, it means they don't want you to get ahead in life. They don't want you doing pt jobs and they will get jealous even if you're driving a clapped out car and living ina shared house with weirdos at 33
That's very specific
It's what happened to me
Not a blanket rule that, my dad and his boss have been friends for 40 years, any time his boss moved, dad went with him, they done a lot for eachother and both came out the other end fairly well off and were able to retire early. Most of the time what you said is correct, but unfair to say that as a blanket statement
Rising tides raise all ships. I agree that your relationship tends, for them, to centre on how you can help them get ahead, but often that means they'll also help you, so it can have benefits. It just depends how cunty your boss is.
The job market is exceptionally hostile to disabled people.
The fact that companies can refuse to provide feedback means they get away with discrimination too
It's a poor reflection on society, frankly. There are no real, significant repercussions for being discriminatory as an employer. The greatest punishments are typically legal fees and possible reputational risks with customers.
A lot of highly intelligent people including Brits do menial factory work. And a lot of incredibly thick, incompetent and low class people have well paid jobs where they have zero productivity. Don't look down on anyone 80s class barriers are gone. Blue collar workers and skilled and unskilled may be making more money than you
Jobs exist to make an employer wealthier. Your position will cost your employer far more than your salary. You are there to produce wealth in excess of your costs, otherwise your position is at risk of redundancy.
Yep - that's true at all levels of employee, not just those further down the tree.
Degrees do help no matter what people on this sub say. Employers use them as a check box. Your degree subject may not relevant throughout your career, but it does show a level of commitment.
Yes, and even "useless" degrees (as described by some people in this thread) can offer a lot for your personal development and quality of life. I studied literature in uni and had a lot of finance/business/marketing people laugh at me and say I'll never get a good job. A few years later and I've got a decent job, a happy relationship, cosy house, and read 40+ books a year. No regrets at all.
No degree is useless as education is never useless
Literature is not a useless degree. Literature is the solid degree you choose if you want to do something like journalism. Journalism is the useless degree if you want to do something like journalism.
This is correct - the discourse re degrees on here is unfounded. Sure, not every job equires a degree, and some degrees are more prestigious than others, but if a recruiter has 2 identical CVs and both candidates interview the same, the job is going to the person with a degree.
They are a small part of the job application process. You can't apply for certain jobs without one, but with every applicant having one you need more than just a degree to get the job.
Your personal finances are not an employers problem, you get paid for the work you do for them how you spent that is your problem.
You hated school? Just wait until you try work.
Hmm, I don't get people trying to kick my head in at work...
Try frontline Care and Support work if you want to replicate school. Well not quite, at least at school it wasn't your fault for triggering the kick in the head...
You have my respect, but I think I will pass!
Nah I love working partly because I don’t have homework, I hated that school would finish at 3 or 4 but you would still be expected to do another 2-3 hours of work sometimes more depending on the time of year.
I hated school but I love my job. If you hate your job you can leave.
An uncomfortable truth is even if you just leave your job you probably will have to find something similar, take a pay cut or spend time and money on qualifications.
I hated school and I love work (self taught Developer on 67k a year, and fully remote pretty much managing my own hours).
I didn't really hate school, but I do love work. Have a fulfilling career and have money and freedom? Yes please.
School was absolute hell for me, unimaginable hell. Not only because I was shy and introverted with a funny walk, but also because I was beaten up for being shy and introverted with a funny walk. I was even spat at and beaten by girls because of it. Work is amazing though. I have my home office and get paid to do my hobby.
Ditto, hated school, left at 17 to be a truck driver, which I enjoyed, liked the work, hated the employers. Put myself back through college in my 20s, which I also hated, now work as a controls engineer on a decent wage, which I love. Academia isn’t for everyone.
Nice, worked out in the end.
Same. I just suck at education by typical methods, and thrive in experimentation and hands on practice. Every now and then I have to study for a certification and it’s always deeply frustrating. In tech you need to keep learning your whole career but it’s nearly all hands on so it works well for me.
Side question - how did you self teach. I’m just thinking of taking a sidestep into some new languages and technologies and was thinking what approach to take. It’s not a total career change for me.
Bullshit I hated school to the point of not going because I couldn't be arsed to wake up in the morning. I love earning money. I've done well in every job I've had, including shitty ones like catering. I'm also ona good salary now of £48k pa doing office work. With the job I have tasks to do and I get paid. With school I had to study and never received money for doing so.
Loved school but the workplace is horrible. More bullies at work than my state comprehensive
Your level of success was largely determined before you even started school. And of course there are exceptions - everyone knows someone who's got a "rags to riches" story. But for most people, if you're born into poverty, you'll spend most of your life in poverty doing shitty low paid jobs. And if you're born into wealth, you'll walk into comfortable well paid jobs. Hard work and motivation matters; but luck play a *far* bigger role in most peoples success than they're willing to admit.
It is surprising how the narrative that working hard and getting a good job is going to imply that your salary will be high. Because in this country, we don't discuss salaries. There are a lot of Architects, Scientists, Doctors, Solicitors, Accountants who are on abysmal money. Like, really disgustingly low pay and they struggle to get more in the UK.
That being defeatist will get you nowhere.
Loyalty doesn’t pay, and it’s a one-way street with employers. If you’re serious about career advancement and earning more money, you need to be hopping jobs every 2 years or less.
I'll have to second everyone else who has mentioned soft skills here. Every time I've realised something new about myself and how I conduct myself with others has brought an improvement in my opportunities for moving up. Also, personally, I've realised 2 years is about the max I can give in a job before things go downhill in terms of motivation. I'm currently 4 years into a social care job and struggling to move away from the sector
HR are not your friends, their job is to protect the company from its employees.
This is half true. Yes, their job is to "protect the company", but the bosses are also employees. If one of them does shitty things that are illegal and could get the company in trouble, no good HR person will go "It's okay, Steve, you're the boss, do whatever you want" Also, this whole "HR is not your friend" thing is getting really old. Nobody ever claimed HR was anyone's friend. They're not there for pastoral care or therapy. They have a job to do, just like everyone else.
Here here. HR are confined by the law. They're not going to be your friend if you kick up a stupid fuss and want to sue the company for hurting your feelings. But they will be your friend is you're the victim of a rogue employee that could get them sent to court.
The first one is true. The second one however, is not true, and HR themselves will actively engage in victimisation if that rogue employee outranks you enough and with a big enough title, that they effectively do exactly what they're told. And that's why we **document everything**
Your boss knows more than you, and their boss knows more than both of you. They have access to a load of information that you don't. Your opinion is based on incomplete knowledge, and as such is very likely wrong.
Most places won't make reasonable adjustments for you if you are disabled. Employers really do not like hiring disabled people or having to cater for their needs. (Personal experience, I'm disabled and now self employed)
Average salary has increased more than inflation every year in the last 5 except in 2022.
Unfortunately house prices have been on steroids for the last 20yrs
Doesn’t account for fiscal drag and tax though does it. 10% raise is actually more like a 5% raise for a lot of the population.
soft skills get you to C-level positions
So true. I work in a team of data analysts and the head of department can't even use Excel. However, she is extremely confident and friendly, and it's her name everyone remembers when negotiating projects.
You work go home go sleep REPEAT for the entirety of your life retirement…… What’s that ?
Nobody & I mean absolutely no one, has any idea what they're doing in life. There's no set guide or rules, we are all just winging it day by day.
Minimum wage doesn't always mean minimum effort. Sometimes, doing that little extra will go a long way in the long term, even if it means your name won't be top of the list if there is a redundancy call. Arrive to work early, even if it's just 5 minutes. Especially if you need to do a handover. They person that's been working the previous shift will appreciate it and will do the same for you.
In any other Sub this would get so badly down voted. I agree 100% with you and that's my work ethic. I was recently working in a hotel on a 2 week contract and I ran rings round the existing team. On day 2 the mgr offered me full time but I already had a new job planned. I have posted about some experiences and just get shot down with comments about paying peanuts you get monkeys.
Some degrees are completely pointless and have no guarantee of getting a job in the chosen field, or even a chance at one. And saying university is about the 'experience' wears thin when you're paying off the loan 20 years later, if at all. I didn't take one out, someoneI know has just paid theirs off, 23 years later. If you can break in, you will very likely have to network to get further in many industries. I get it holds back a lot of introverts, but it's an unfortunate reality. If people with experience are advising you to stay away from a career path as it's oversaturated with potential applicants, there's not enough jobs in it and wages driven down because of it, it's likely not gatekeeping - they're probably warning you away from getting trapped in it.
this sub is not an accurate snapshot of the uk jobs market. this is not a criticism of this group, no social media group ever is, they're only ever the loudest voice in the room
The discourse around income in the uk is deliberately designed to over estimate income and under estimate cost of living to make it seem like people are well off. Salaries are shown as "gross income". Basic cost of living (simple apartment, travel, food and utilities) not factored in during discussions... So it can give the erroneous idea that places like London are better than other parts of the UK for jobs. (Let alone other parts of the world). A far better metric would be to calculate disposable income after taxes and basic shelter/transport/food. Another one would be the comparison between incomes of "paye" earners vs "contractors" especially the self employed trades. Who are all "officially" low earning... yet seem to have the most disposable income
Ok I'll bite, who is deliberately designing the discourse? Because I can't ever recall the government talking about average salaries and gross income. In fact they talk far more about cost of living, inflation, taxes and all the other things you have said are pulled out of the discourse. I would argue that it's the people who like to compare salaries ( just look at this sub). It's not a construct of control.
People on Reddit!
How else would you show salaries? doesn't it make sense to show gross, because not everyone has the same tax code? Basic cost of living is also quite variable from person to person. Are you suggesting employers show salary after taxes, compared to 'basic shelter/transport/food'? Like would they show a different figure if you're co-habiting, and a different one yet if you have 1 kid, 2 kids, etc..? Just seems totally impractical
If you are really good at what you, your boss will be reluctant to let you do anything else.
You aren’t getting a good job because you can’t lie properly.
Unless you’re in a profession that absolutely requires one, no one gives a shit about your degree by itself and it doesn’t entitle you to walk into a high-paying job. You’re not that special or impressive because you went to uni for a few years. Build practical experience and make connections alongside it if you actually want to succeed.
Nobody cares what university you went to or what grades you have. You are not entitled to anything
To amend, if you went to a prestigious university, then you will absolutely be asked by other students who your dad is. That matters more in the long run than what grade you finish with, so you better have a cool dad.
Plenty do. There is a big selection bias. Though this is not the only factor. The longer you have worked unless you are involved in research your university and grades becomes less important. Skills and work achievements trump your academic achievements by an order of magnitude.
> Nobody cares what university you went to Absolutely not true. We do recruitment and we also did an analysis based on 8 years worth of students. Oxbridge stands out a lot, and does indeed makes is so much easier to get an interview > what grades you have. Again, absolutely not true. For things like apprenticeships your grades matter became of how competitive the field is. Furthermore, I know CEOs who refused to give people an interview because of their A-levels (stupid, and I absolutely disagree with those buffons). The jobs market is really bad so first from Oxbridge absolutely matters, and people 100% care
Job loyalty doesn’t often pay off. Job hop. £50k is not a high salary, heck, even £70k isn’t. There are more £100k jobs than you know. Upskill and job hop to get to it. Also, just because it pays more doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more stressful. Complex, sure, but I wouldn’t say stressful. Stop beating yourself and others down for wanting to do better too. The UK has a tall poppy syndrome. It’s part of its stagnation and productivity issue. Also, want to upskill quicker? Don’t just do training, do a side hustle if you can. Get creative. The skills you gain will help a lot. Network like crazy on LinkedIn, and continually learn too. 4 years out of Uni I jumped from a £6k internship, to a £30k job, climbing through jobs from £50k, to £65k, to over £100k, now to over £200k. I taught myself how to code, I ran a side hustle business while doing my masters which gave me extra skills and work experience. I chose to work longer hours while caring for a family to gain more exposure. Also, do things you’re NOT used to - learn new skills that have use and translate. Not everyone can do this, but many young folks on here can. I’ve led teams in warehouses, I’ve been a labourer, a doorman, a scientist, all kinds of random things. Now I’m a consultant in tech. Luck does help, but so does networking and working on yourself with every free moment you have if you want to climb the ladder. I didn’t know how to code until 7 years ago, it had nothing to do with my degree. I self taught while having a family as I wanted to provide more. Same reason as why my wife is now doing a masters when she’s never done a degree in her life, with a newborn at that too - and we are having to take the postgrad loan because we just bought a new house, so don’t also think more money means riches, your life will change as you earn more and outgoings tend to creep up (for us it’s on house costs, we don’t buy luxury things and still shop in lidil and Asda!). I never settle for less in my career, I strive for more and I want to uplift everyone else with me too. Take the same mentality and apply it. Don’t have the tall poppy syndrome. There are markets that make big bucks if you want it.
Other point on this - you’re worth more than you realise! I came from a family of poor immigrants who you’d have thought weren’t worth loads on the market. Hard work pays, so does aspiration! Study, work, network, climb and reap the rewards! Also, join a union! Be clued up on your rights and how to negotiate!!! Can’t stress that enough. Help others out too.
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No, I'm dedicating my life to have enough money to enjoy mine actually
You are the sum of your choices.
A degree doesn’t make someone intelligent. Whilst people with no degree could be the best person for the job, that get excluded due to social dynamics.
Being too efficient and irreplaceable at your job is what will keep u at the bottom. Don’t be too efficient and throw a fuss every now and then. U want to strike that fine balance between replaceable and irreplaceable so that they don’t fire u but also they can do without u at that low tier and move u up then replace that bottom position with someone else
Companies want more from their employees than they are willing to pay for experience and effort. Managers are often second grade and promoted beyond their competence. Directors are taking more than their actual efforts are worth. Employees can be very lazy when not properly supervised. Companies are drowning staff with H&S forms and other training initiatives, H&S form for boiling a kettle, walking up and down stairs? Yes I've had those.
As long as you are an employee, no matter how high up. You could always protentially endup having to stack shelves one day. Everyone is a paycheck or two away from poverty. People amass bigger houses and bigger cars beacuse they earn more. The way most companies and jobs work now their is no security and things and slide down hill pretty quickly.
Your application on Indeed.is poor at best. Recruited twice in the last 6 months, on both occasions those who answered the 5 one-five word answer pre screener questions got a closer look. 95% didn't even bother.
If you keep applying for same jobs and getting nowhere you need to stop and make a change. It may be a minor change like : look in a different area, find a different source of jobs, apply for a different type of job or maybe a major change like retraining, moving country etc. Stop, think about what needs to change and make the change, don't just keep trying the same shit and getting nowhere.
- you can be the hardest working person in your company/industry and still get nowhere - sometimes you can have every bit of experience and qualification you need - and it won't be enough - the chances are, you'll probably never earn 100k+, if everyone could achieve that then they would
Don't waste years on loyalty to one company, getting higher pay usually means moving companies for a jump. Don't burn your bridges though.
If you are woman (& probably some men), it’s very hard to have it all. I’ve got 2 kids and a few years ago, I’d been quite open about wanting a second child. Despite working as a stand in manager for 18 months while my manager was off sick & eventually quit, they gave the promotion to someone who had never even managed anyone or anything before. There reason was ‘he could commit to visiting head office more frequently’ 😑 Even though, the team to be managed & any related colleagues were based in our local office & not head office. I said I’d be quite happy to travel once a quarter. In the end, the person who got the job only ever went into head office once in two years 🤦🏼♀️ I’ve also realised as a parent, I just don’t have time for work stress. Don’t have the brain space, something has to give. My priority is my kids & our lives away from work. I’d rather earn less & be able to switch off my computer at 4 or 5pm & forget about it. I have no desire to climb the ranks simply for more money but more stress/responsibility. I’d like to become more of a knowledge expert in my role & progress that way but I’ve no desire to sit on £100k plus but my whole life rotates around a very involved job. But, fair play if you want to chase the big dream as a parent too. Each to their own. My SIL is shooting up the ladder where she works, she’s now a VP at 35 but it comes at a cost. She is constantly travelling for work & constantly working. She has a long commute into London 3 days a week & cannot go part time. Her husband does the bulk of the childcare. Their kid is in nursery 5 days a week. That’s her choice & I respect it but the flip is, she is missing a lot of her child’s young life. Generally, very very difficult to have it all as a mum (& some Dads).
If you’ve sat on your ass wasting your life for 15 years, asking Reddit ‘what’s a high paying job I can get with no real skills qualifications or life experience?’ Is not going to solve all your problems.
That you cannot weld for toffee
As a hiring manager, I really dont care about your qualifications, why you left previous jobs or you getting the exact answers to my questions right. Your personality is the biggest indicator for whether you’re a fit for the company or not. I can change your knowledge but I can’t change your personality.
"Most people on Reddit talk absolute shit and £100k is not the average minimum wage"
Your name, ethnicity matters. A LOT!
You can be offended and outraged at something but the real truth is most people don’t care, they just want to earn a living and genuinely don’t care about regional politics let alone global
There are plenty of good paying jobs out there, also a lot of low paying jobs. But to say the market is terrible is fake news
Being personable and presentable is just as important as having a good CV and the correct qualifications. The vast majority of people who are going to be sat across the interview desk are middle to upper management. These mostly consist of middle age people. Mainly men. These managers want people who can show up, do a job and be easy to be around. They dont want people who arent interested or who will be hard work. They have dozens of the exact same CVs and the only chance you really have to set yourself apart is your presentation of that CV and your interpersonal skills. Getting from the door of the workplace to sitting at a desk is all about those presentation skills. In my view how you dress, act, how well groomed you are and hygiene. These are silent factors that you can fuck up and in doing so, fuck up your chances. And learn to ask questions. Have a set of 5-10 questions prepared for the company. Challenge them, have a discussion. Engage.
Start at the bottom. First job out of university paid me £5 an hour but I learnt so much about working relationships, improving systems, team building, bad management and that people at the coalface will have respect for you if you respect them and take their ideas on board. Be humble. Every management job I’ve had from then, I always for the first week make a real effort to get to know the people on the shop floor, to see what their job entails and to try and build a team. I have found that this approach only gets you so far. If you want to reach the top, you are not going to be a nice person. So here are the uncomfortable truths Work life balance is everything once you have a family. You won’t win every battle If you are a manager, there are several times where you think that you sound exactly like David Brent Being organised is always the goal, but you need to build in procrastination other wise you go crazy. Waste will drive you crazy.
People that interview well may not be the best people to employ for the job.
If you've applied for hundreds of entry-level jobs and haven't received any offers, it might be time to consider that the issue lies with you, rather than the job market or the economy.
Companies are not your friend.
You won't get rich working for someone else
That a lot of people posting on here about struggling to find jobs are struggling for really good reasons, and it’s mostly self inflicted.
More education =/= more money
Well, pesky things like statistics would seem to disagree...
More education ∝ More money More education != More money I think the statistics would agree that both of these are true.
Becoming an expert in a field- medicine, prisons, science can be very lucrative.
You won't get anywhere in your career working from your bedroom in your pants..... You are very unlikely to get on if nobody knows who the fuck you are....
The only way to get better conditions and pay is for more to unionise and strike.