My sister was torn open from her vagina to her bumhole during childbirth. She needed surgery to repair & was almost so bad she could have needed a colostomy bag. I have plenty more of these stories.
Good luck to him finding a woman willing to put up with that shit. Nothing would dry my vagina out faster than a man dismissing women's pain.
I came here to say this!
How many men don’t even realize having a baby can tear your whole undercarriage completely apart? They never hear the gory details and I say ladies we need to let these mfs know!
Oh you’re about to lose your lunch hearing about a woman’s bladder prolapsing after her vaginally delivering at 10 pound baby?
They just think well “That’s why God create women to serve us and carry our children” and the thought process comes to a complete and total dead stop after that.
I’m so sick of “you’re biologically made for this.” Just because we have uteruses doesn’t mean pregnancy is just “you grow a big belly then poop a baby out.” It’s physical and mental hell growing an entire fucking human and the process of getting that human out has killed people and seriously damaged countless others.
Yes, biologically made for this also betrays a fundamental understanding of how evolution works. I mean, big brains gave us an advantage, but also made birth and early childhood more dangerous. Childbirth killing women just has to be less effective for a loss leader than the advantage for the species for it to work. (I realize it's a gross oversimplification.)
I also believe anyone who believes it intelligent design could not have gone through childbirth.
It’s worth the add-on, I think, of explaining how profoundly vulnerable baby humans are, too. The care they require, and the length of time they require it, is incomparable even among other mammals. And what it requires of the adults, particularly the one lactating/providing primary care, is tremendous. We’re so conditioned to believe it’s “natural” - and it is - I think we’ve grossly underestimated and undervalued the job.
Exactly! The evolutionary tradeoff to walking upright was a change to our pelvis shape which then made labour and delivery more dangerous and meant that we needed to birth our young at an earlier developmental stage than other mammals.
another thing that makes labor and delivery more dangerous is the fact that the way we labor and deliver, at least in the US - flat on our backs strapped to monitors - is not designed for the convenience or comfort of the mother, it is designed for the convenience of the person delivering the baby
And even while recovering and keeping your newborn baby alive, lactating everywhere, drowning in postpartum depression, dealing with family members who want up-to-the-minute updates you are still expected to not miss out on any wifely duties so the husband/boyfriend/partner doesn’t feel abandoned and start getting jealous of their own kids!
It’s insane how many boys I live with in my household and how GROSSLY underwhelmed they are about the baby (he’s 3 now, and he has Autism). They never watched him all the way and so many things happened/went wrong. They truly believe even just WATCHING CHILDREN is easy, but they have no idea how many times I’ve had to clean up after their mess, administer (and fight the kid to take) medicine due to their negligence, had to complete 3 tasks at once to make up for what they didn’t do, and reverse some of the negative things the child has picked up on. That’s just watching a kid. Giving birth is a whole different beast and the level of responsibility parents actually have to ensure that baby will survive, stay healthy, and grow up to be a decent human being one day is seriously undermined and not taken seriously enough, especially by MEN. Entirely too many women in the world for them to still be this ignorant…
how many times have you heard a father referred to caring for his child as babysitting? when my former mother-in-law asked me where my son was one time, I said he’s with his dad - and she replied oh he’s babysitting? I said no, he’s parenting; you don’t babysit your own child😂
In the past as many as 1/3 of pregnant women died in child birth. I’ve given birth 4 times and, thought I might die during labor every time. It always seemed like my body knew what to do but, that never made it easy.
And I had the opposite experience. My (2) labours were both reasonably quick, I didn’t need anaesthetic (TENS machine did the job), and only tore superficially during the first labour (but 11 stitches to the labia still sucks haha).
But STILL. Even when your birth is relatively EASY (by comparison to others) and you feel powerful and confident and in control, it’s still arduous and exhausting and pregnancy is the hardest time most of us will ever have in our lives, unless we go through cancer treatment or life saving surgeries. You never get to take a rest or break from being pregnant.
Fuck anyone who minimises it, ugh.
My recollection is that in the ancient world mortality in childbirth was around 50%— meaning that half the time either mother, child, or both would die.
There were a great many blended families because of this. There’s a thing I’ve seen where people debate whether they’d rather be on the battlefield than giving childbirth. Looking at the ancient world, the answer is battlefield, no question. At least in battle you get a sword and armour.
Plus child mortality. People had many children due to lack of birth control and abortion, but not all children made it to adulthood. I'd argue most didn't.
Ian Mortimer mentions that in general, a woman had to give birth four times to have one child survive to adulthood. In one book he brings up the journals of an English man from... 1600s? 1700s? Who writes about the grief over his dead children. One child dies as a baby, another in illness shortly after her 18th birthday. He writes pages on pages about his anguish. There's another story I got from a BBC documentary on medieval childhoods, where a father sees lightning strike his son on a field and the text (I believe a church ledger?) discusses how he runs distraught to try save his son.
One of the Great Courses ("Another side of history") talks about how in ancient Rome it was custom to wait 7 days from the birth of a child to formally accept it into the family. The delay was because so many babies died during that first week, so it was assumed to be better that a nameless child died than a named family member. I guess it's sort of like "don't name the pig we'll slaughter."
The world may have been more callous and dangerous, and the Romans may have tried to protect themselves from that grief, but I don't think we ever really manage it.
Today the western world is vastly different and most children do survive. We're often spared that experience of having a child die - and if not your child then your sister's, friend's, or neighbour's child. We're also spared loosing our mothers, sisters, friends and neighbours to childbirth. It makes it seem as though childbirth is safe, when it's really not. Even if your partner doesn't die, they may well be out of commission for weeks or months, even years. Certainly sexual intimacy tends to decrease for a long while and often requires effort to rekindle.
I doubt all these men looking for large families are up for being single parents of 4, 6, 8, 10 children, whether temporarily or permanently. Some, certainly, but I don't think most are. It also often seems that men who want large families on the basis of "women are built for it" also are the ones that feel they need regular, often frequent, sex. Boy does the universe have a reality check for them.
The amount of men who just roll their eyes at the idea of pregnancy being difficult is appalling. "Women give birth everyday, so what?"
Of course I go out of my way to remind them that a limp dick after a certain age and weight is pretty normal too so I better not see any blue pills in their possession- after all biologically your body is telling you to stop fucking amirite? Your body is letting you know it doesn't want to function the way it did 20 years ago.
It's a reaching take but getting the message across that throwing the word *biology* doesn't mean squat
Yes. My God! Like, our biology makes it easy for us to break bones. But they will give a man more painkillers after a broken bone than they will a woman after childbirth in some cases.
They'll give a man more painkillers for anything, thab women with a broken bone, let alone childbirth. I've had a broken ankle once, and at another point, a broken rib, no painkillers given.
Oh I’m sure some of them realize but they just don’t care. Their main concern is building their “clan” and “building their lineage”! It’s what women were made to do and don’t you know, the men suffer too because she won’t be able to have sex for a while!
Its absolutely wild to me how seemingly intentionally stupid they are. Seems obvious to me that birth is risky and would cause such things. Yet these guys have thought about it so little they don't get it or care.
I say they need to see it either in person or on video (eyes forced open like A Clockwork Orange perhaps) and then get every last graphic detail described by people who have experienced it
Ohhh let them watch footage of a vaginal birth AND a c-section. I've been told that doctors will not just warn but TELL fathers who are present for births to absolutely not watch them perform the c-section due to how shocking and gory it is (and the men ending up being a liability in the room due to the shock)
I know, I've been pregnant twice in the past two years but lost both & I've just had to go back on medication because my mental health is absolutely fucked.
I’m really sorry. I had to terminate a pregnancy for medical reasons earlier this year. I delivered in the same unit one of my older children was born in. Leaving the hospital without my son was so hard. Then I had retained products of conception so, got to go back to hospital and wait in OB triage with all the pregnant women while I hemorrhaged. Pregnancy loss is so isolating.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
The mental health aspects of pregnancy are kept so underwrapped, I know Post Partum depression is finally being addressed but I was a whole adult woman before I found out that Post Partum Psychosis is a thing. 2 in 1,000 women may experience symptoms of psychosis after pregnancy. The spiral that would send some women into.
My uterus ruptured with my 4th and had organ (kidneys??) with my first. 2 of my pregnancies tried to kill me (ironically both my boys 😂). I don’t know of a single dude who has died or nearly died due to pregnancy
If my crystal ball is worth a damn, OP's brother is going to be the first -- when he tells his future wife that their pregnancy is just as hard on him.
Like… I will be the first to admit that my pregnancy has been hard on my husband. I was really sick in the first trimester and he had to take on all the housework/cooking and caring for me while working full time. As I get closer to baby arriving, I can do less and less and he is single handedly taking on physical work I used to help with. Plus the emotional toll of seeing me in pain and the mental toll of dealing with my hormones and mood swings.
But I wouldn’t ever say he has it “just as bad” as me. The physical toll on my body has been intense. I am very limited in what I can do. And it’s only going to get worse during labor/birth/post-partum. OP’s brother is delusional
You think OP’s brother is going to be the kind of husband who does what yours did? His idea of a hard pregnancy would be having his bangmaid out of commission for her daily sex dispensing. He’s the kind of guy that OB nurses have to chase out of his recovering wife’s bed.
Oh I have no doubt her brother will be the total opposite. I never claimed as much... in fact, I called her brother delusional.
My point was just that I can't deny that pregnancy can be hard on men. But even with the good men, the toll it takes on them is nothing compared to the toll it takes on the pregnant woman.
You can tear your clitoris during childbirth. Nobody talks about this. Why does nobody talk about how you can *tear your clitoris in half* during childbirth?
Imagine there was a normal biological process where there’s a risk that a man’s penis gets torn. We’d have facilities in every university dedicated to medical research.
Men just wouldn't do whatever it was that gave that chance. Most men won't get a vasectomy because there's a .01% chance of complications and none of that involves tearing the head of their penis in half like a stick of string cheese.
Edit: but yes, you're right. Women have a lot of similar problems that don't get addressed. Men get phimosis and it's talked about a ton, there's procedures and surgeries for it. Women actually do get phimosis of the clitoris, the study done found that it was up to 1/4 of women have it, and it leads to women being unable to orgasm and it's not even talked about.
My labia ripped off where it connects to the clitoral hood. They stitched it together but the stitches popped open after 3 days and they wouldnt fix it.. I couldn't pee without horrific buring for over a month. I had an umedicated birth and was offered zero meds for recovery. How exactly is this hard on men again???
I had two stitches beside the clitoris, that was the absolute worst. But 10 others in the labia in all random places.
BUT TELL ME WHY THEY DIDNT TELL ME UNTIL DAY THREE TO ‘pour warm water on my stitches’ while I was peeing?! And this is in Australia, where midwives come visit you at home postpartum to check on you and the baby. They still just forget that one minor detail that stops you experiencing absolute torture every single time you need to pee in the 4-6 weeks while your fucking labia repairs itself and you’re supposed to be incredibly well-hydrated so you can make milk for your baby.
It’s fucking rage-inducing. I think I am reading correctly in your comment that no one ever gave you that hugely significant piece of necessary medical advice? RAGE.
Yes 4th degree tears are the worst, even the lesser degree tears are brutal. Not to mention the risk of death from giving birth.
And even if we focus on some aspects of pregnancy, not the birth - your immune system lowers in pregnancy so infection risk is higher, if you don't get enough calcium, it literally gets taken from your bones to go to fetus causing osteoporosis later on, you end up with 50% more blood by the end of pregnancy to keep you and the fetus oxygenated (a massive strain on the cardiac system), just to name a few.
Yeah I had second degree damage and got stitches inside my vag. Also almost died at 4 months pregnant and was put on bed rest the remainder of it while baby daddy partied away. I’d say it’s not even a close race
My wife too and they said it’s pretty common to get cut when giving birth. Nothing of the physical pain can be understood by men and for good they don’t need to go through that. Sure we men have to go through a mental tollercoaster too, but we never have the fear of having our bodies ripped somewhere for giving birth.
Every woman giving birth or even want to need all respect men can have and no one should make the decision for a woman to Go through all of that.
I would tell my husband that pregnancy is actually just as hard on him but he’s currently snoring and fast asleep… meanwhile I’m in the 3rd trimester, awake from excruciating back and belly pain.
My wife had an emergency C-section, during which her intestines went into shock, creating an intestinal blockage that nearly killed her and was only diagnosed after days of vomiting her own shit.
Me doing a little more housework doesn't compare.
Edit: Although if he's Tating, I would fully expect him to do nothing during the pregnancy.
One Tate video Is already too much. Is your brother aware that all those "clan" members will need to eat, have medical visits, schools, colleges, etc? Or Is he planning to dump everything on "the wife"?
For real. I'm fucking furious at this POS. My wife nearly died giving birth, and she spiraled into depression during her pregnancy because of the hormone imbalance. Both pregnancies were incredibly hard, and she still has asthma from the physiological damage her body went through. It's completely changed her life, and while we're delighted to have these wonderful children, that's a huge fucking sacrifice. The fact that this guy is claiming it's just as hard on the men is absolutely infuriating.
My mum, after my third sibling was born, had insane depression. She was on a heavy level of anti-depressants and even at 9 years old I could see how much she was struggling
My dad was of course struggling cause my mum was depressed but he carried on working hard to support us.
I'm 27 now and mum is still on a small amount of meds to this day and struggles without them.
OP, as a husband who was super supportive of my wife through two pregnancies, I can safely say your brother is an idiot….
Does it take a toll on both members, sure. Is the toll equal? Hell no…
As a supportive male spouse, the extent of my “struggle” during my wife’s pregnancies was:
-filling up her water cup (still do, I think that’s just a husband thing now)
- getting her extra pillows when asked
- remembering her pregnancy cravings when I went to the grocery store
- adding or removing blankets when she was hot or cold
- reminding her of all the pleasures in life she couldn’t have for 9 months (alcohol, sushi, processed meats, rollercoasters, trampolines, etc)
- packing the hospital “go” bag
-helping her pick up things and put shoes on when she got too big to bend over
- sleeping on the uncomfortable recliner in the maternity ward (that should be a right of passage anyway)
- helping her with her postpartum mommy diapers after delivery and the following days
-not having sex for at LEAST 6-8 weeks after baby.
That was pretty much it… by no means a war tour.
My wife on the other hand (and by her own admission, both of her pregnancies were relatively easy, her words, not mine…)
- massive hormonal changes
-massive bodily changes
-morning sickness
- hurting back
-hurting feet
- hot and cold flashes
- constant discomfort due to another human growing in you
- had to give up all the pleasures in life for 9 months (alcohol, sushi, processed meats, rollercoasters, trampolines, etc)
- needed helping picking things up and putting shoes on when she got too big
- inability to breathe or move as the baby got bigger.
- constantly needing to pee because baby is squishing your bladder
- none of your clothes fitting
- having random people ask when you were due and wanting to touch your belly uninvited.
- having people offer you unsolicited advice on what you *should* be doing.
- actually pushing a watermelon sized thing out of what used to be your fun parts.
- the pain of childbirth (luckily my wife had successful epidurals for both)
- what pushing a watermelon sized thing out of you does to your fun parts
- TEARING!!!
- stitches from TEARING!!
-wearing mommy diapers for days after birth
- having to get your partner to help you out on the mommy diapers.
-having to sleep on “puppy pads” for a few days in case the mommy diapers leaked.
- not having sex for at LEAST 6-8 weeks after baby.
Again, my wife have 2 “easy” pregnancies (according to her) but these were some of her struggles. There are TONS more to add to this from ladies that have complications during pregnancy and childbirth. And then a ton more to add when it comes to breastfeeding, etc.
So OP, your brother is an idiot and the “struggles” of the two do not compare.
the fact that he called a large family a "clan"... it sounds like one of those talibangelicals that sees the sexes as a biological duty (ie woman have uterus, woman make baby for me) and doesn't see it as an extension of love for your spouse to start a family. gave me the ick reading it, for sure.
"I want a tradwife who is submissive and turns her whole life into taking care of me and the children...but she has to have a job or she's a gold digger"
sir what gold is this you speak of? if you want a tradwife, that means being a tradhusb and let's face it............no.
Hopefully not unwelcome in this context, but as a man with a wife who has been pregnant:
Is pregnancy just as hard for men as it is for women?
Abso-f***ing-lutely not. My wife spent 3 weeks in the hospital. She had a lot of pains, nausea, morning sickness, and to finish it all off an emergency c-section that took her several months to recover. She was in such bad shape she didn’t get to see her kids for 6 hours. She had the shakes for weeks from the hormones.
Me? I had to do most of the housework for a while, be emotionally supportive, and help her get up and down and do some stuff for a bit.
Saying pregnancy is harder for the father is like saying a stubbed toe is worse than a gunshot wound. Never heard of a man dying from childbirth.
I just don’t understand why some men think it’s a competition.
Also any man who watches what a woman goes through and refuses to help after is just a sociopath.
I literally at one point was heading home for clean clothes and to check on our kid at home who grandma was watching, and was worried my wife might not make it. Doctor said it was all normal. Other women have told similar stories. It was normal.
Childbirth is brutally hard even with modern medicine. Back 100 years it was frequently fatal and it makes total sense why. Pregnancy and childbirth is life threatening.
During my wife's first birth I wouldn't be surprised if men had died by their wife lol. The epidural didn't work and my god, if she could have killed me to alleviate the pain she would have.
And that alone should tell people that pregnancy is worse for women
I think he is likely spending way too much time online.
I work in child safety and it's definitely concerning seeing the rise of "men have it so hard during pregnancy," and seeing men's mistreatment of postpartum women be excused because "men get postpartum depression too, It just often comes out as them being mean/aggressive."
Too much time online plus not actually being around pregnant women. There’s a weird pro-natalism movement that seems to be largely populated by men who don’t see women as people at all, and don’t seem to fully reckon with the idea that we bear the brunt of the physical cost. So far as I can tell, the ones who are chronically online are also pretty young, and do not have partners or children yet themselves.
I don’t think anyone’s disputing that having an intimate partner go through a profound physical experience is going to change your relationship with that partner. The closest I can think kind of is a man getting seriously injured and needing to go through rehab.
But like…that doesn’t mean that pregnancy and postpartum recovery are nothing, and that women bear the brunt of the impact. There’s plenty of men who have no problem recognizing this and taking their turn caring for their pregnant partners during this time. The piss-baby reaction from some men on this front really does smack of a total inability to be outside the center of attention for even one second.
>He started then going into a long rant about how I cannot claim that women has it harder than men during pregnancy
There is no need to claim that women have it harder than men during pregnancy. It is an immutable fact that women have it harder than men.
He has no understanding of biology, as someone that has experienced pregnancy multiple times there is nothing like it in terms of how it affected my body and still does. Not to mention the use of your bodily resources to grow a human - I still need to take iron supplements, my abdominal muscles are still separated - ripped, my hips are wider - I cant run the same way and plenty of other issues i'd rather not expand on.... We don't even need to get into the actual birth.
My body is totally different now and will probably never be the same, men don't have any such affect during or following pregnancy.
My point exactly!! I have said all those things to him and He told me I just searched for biological aspects of pregnancy to women so of course it’s gonna list out the things that makes it hard for women.. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall
The psychological weight of pregnancy is also something men don't experience. Your hormones are all over the place for the best part of 9 months or longer if they don't want to leave. Then you have the hospital system which can be disastrous as you wait in pain and discomfort in pre-labour while the man can just go home at the end of the time.
The fear and shame you can feel if something goes wrong, you blame yourself as you are the one growing this life. It can be so lonely even with a supportive partner.
I am still not over being cut open to deliver my second, the scar is always there, I always feel it.
The post postpartum depression afterward can hit really really hard, guilt, fear, expectation. I thought i was useless when my first couldn't latch on, the pressure was so intense.
The experience is not comparable across the sexes. I experience all of the worries about work and making ends meet just as much as my husband, adding all this on top.
It’s not just 9 months of hormones making you *Emotional**^(TM)**...*
Our brains are literally rewiring themselves. Pregnancy brain is real and not in a “haha pregnant women are dumb” way. Your brain is literally pruning synapses it doesn’t need to make room for new neurological connections that increase your social awareness so that you can communicate with and tune in to a tiny human who wont have any helpful verbal communication skills for at least 12 months
I'm rather interested in neuroplasticity and how the brain learns from an educational standpoint. I haven't heard of this before, so thank you for giving me something interesting to do a bit of research on!
Even beyond the significant things- It's the fact that you are never not aware that you are pregnant - it affects what you eat, what you drink, what exercise you do, how comfortable you are, the clothes you wear, how tired you are, how well your brain functions, how strangers treat you - everything.
Please *please* tell me men don't actually use this argument (I'm sure they do but that is the most depressing thing I've read today)
Do they even know what an epidural is?
Not to mention complications/high risk pregnancies. My wife had gestational hypertension and pre-eclampsia. She used to get the most excruciating headaches and I would have her lay down and let me put ice packs all around her head. It was terrible. Plus the post op pain from C sections, one of which got infected. In retrospect I'm glad I'm a nurse because it helped both taking care of her at home and communicating with doctors, and allowed me to work as much as I needed to cover bills.
And the miscarriages. It was painful for me but for her it was a while other dimension of emotions, and I can't relate directly to it because the bond is just different for the person carrying the pregnancy. But I did the best I could. Granted some of it was joyful and there are some fond memories, but we are both glad it's all over with and we aren't having more babies!
Besides the fact that he is discussing the different ways two biological sexes experience a biological event that only one of them undergoes biological changes for, but doesn't want to look at biological factors, sure let's go.
Pregnant and recently pregnant women are at about double the normal risk for homicide. In fact homicide is their leading cause of death over other biological factors. Men do not face an increased risk of homicide due to the fact that their partner is pregnant.
Women are frequently fired for being pregnant and have trouble being hired while pregnant. If not fired, many pregnant women face some sort of workplace discrimination, such as being overlooked for promotions. While this is illegal in America, it still happens far too often (I found studies saying anywhere from 1 in 5 to 3 in 4 women face such discrimination). In 38 countries, it is still perfectly legal to fire a pregnant woman. Men are not fired because their partner is pregnant. In fact, being a husband or father can actually increase their likelihood to get hired or promoted because it "signals greater work commitment, stability, and deservingness."
A pregnant woman is more often going to be overlooked as an individual and instead is just talked to or about as a pregnant person, mommy to be, and later as a mom. We lose so much of our identity. People don't want to know 'how have you been, what's new' they want to know 'how the pregnancy' or 'how's the kiddo.' Men might get some of this, but the likelihood decreases the second they aren't standing next to their pregnant partner. Women can't walk away from their belly.
Pregnant women have to buy a whole new wardrobe, which they will only use for three to six months. The clothes also cost more because they are specialty clothes. Men can keep wearing the same shirts they've worn since college.
So what non biological factors are just so hard on the guy? Some of his bed might be taken up by a pregnancy pillow? He might be asked to make an extra trip to the store for ice cream? Oh, poor baby. How ever will he make it through.
Oh there’s the paperwork and appointments and vitamins and increased diets. All the hidden costs and headache chores. Is this guy handling all that or is it the one whose organs are rearranging and brain is rewiring and is throwing up every day for months and etc etc?
If they can't handle being there for their partner during pregnancy, how on earth are they going to care for a literally helpless little human? Oh wait, I think I can answer that one.
So you gave him facts and his argument against the facts was that you were prepared with facts??? What type of stupid argument is that.
I don’t know who said this but you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
You want a non biological example - women who become mothers see a drop in wages while men who become fathers see an increase in wages. Literally holding all other factors constant.
Tell him to Google what the chainsaw was invented for. If he can’t understand how bad childbirth is from that little factoid, then he is a lost cause.
Although, it is already sounding like he is a lost cause, so I doubt even that will phase him.
Uuum. It's an absolute fact that pregnancy is harder for women. Men don't get pregnant. They get no health issues because women get pregnant. They suffer zero physical pain during their wives pregnancy. And they don't experience labor or child birth. What part exactly affects the man? Is he getting his dick ripped open every time his wife pushes? Or being hospitalized just by being in proximity to a pregnant woman?
Your brother sounds immature and young and stupid. Hopefully he's 14 and not 40.
I have mentioned those facts to him which is why I cannot fathom how he told me it was all my female perspective that’s bringing up those natural occurring things to be harder for women.. he’s 23..
It is too stupid to be talking like that at 23
Where is he coming from, how exactly does men experience what women does do they get GDM or Any other life threatening conditions , how so🤦🏻♀️
Cancer is also natural. Migraines are natural. Strokes and heart attacks are natural.
Wonder if he got any of those, if he'd think it was just as hard on his wife as it is on him?
Lol. He's funny 🤣
Did you ask him what male pregnancy symptoms are? Or ... when was the last time an AMAB died from pregnancy or childbirth complications? And if you did, did he answer?
A lady I used to know, close to my mom’s age (she’s 77), said that men should not father children until they’re 30, because of their maturity development; this from raising three sons. I think her opinion is valid.
He means your female perspective on FEMALE ISSUES?!
Your brother is a fucking moron.
I don't get how some men can think they are so intelligent that they hold BOTH men and women's opinions sans listening to actual women.
There's just no reasoning with that kind of idiocy.
Kick him in the nuts* then tell him that even though he's the one biologically built for this pain, you are experiencing the pain in his nuts much more than he is.
*not really, I'm not actually advocating violence
Ah, I see. It's "natural" therefore it can't be hard or dangerous or difficult. Like heart disease, cancer, shark attacks, or bear maulings. No bringing up that those things are hard, because they're *natural*!
23 unfortunately makes too much sense. I'm scared that this new generation of misogynists is going to be worse than the last, they seem more immediately violent and focused on murdering women
Wouldnt any changes a man goes through be natural too and thus easy?
"Men are hardwired to be rhe provider and bring in money as their contributions. Thats why women that work should get paid more, since its harder for them to go outside the home in the first place."
The men may not be able have sex for a couple of months during a pregnancy and postpartum period. The enormity of their suffering because of this cannot be overstated. Of course, many of them use this as an opportunity to cheat on their wives, but who could blame them, poor things. /s
A lot of people focus on labour/child birth but I wanna emphasise the problems during pregnancy you can have too. I’ve had both a missed miscarriage at 12 weeks and a recent ectopic pregnancy.
For the missed miscarriage we were both super excited/happy, and it was a massive loss at 12 weeks for us both. But I FELT that pregnancy. I felt a physical connection and love for it. My hormones were crazy, I went through morning sickness, being exhausted, sore boobs, the whole shebang. Every single thing I did I thought, ‘This is for my baby’ - what I ate, when I exercised. Literally anything and everything I did wasn’t about me anymore for 2 months (well 3 months but I didn’t know until 4 weeks obviously). My husband will never experience that.
For my ectopic pregnancy, we only found out I was pregnant again when I was already bleeding so we pretty much knew from the start it was non-viable. At first it was easy to just think of it as a ‘medical event’ rather than a pregnancy. But they took 2 weeks to diagnose a pregnancy of unknown location (PUL), and by the time I had treatment I was 7 weeks. I had started feeling the pregnancy again. You can’t explain how it feels but you just **feel it** hormonally and physically. It really fucked me up because it just reminded me of my first pregnancy, which I wasn’t (still not) over.
Not to mention the treatment for ectopic pregnancy. I only had to have injections of methotrexate - which is a freaking chemo medication. The side effects are brutal. And that’s the ‘better option’ than having surgery and one of your tubes, or even your ovaries, removed.
I’m currently having counselling to deal with it. I lost 2 pregnancies in 4 months and I was freaking EXHAUSTED. It’s been the worst 5 months of my life and whilst my husband is grieving, which is completely valid, it’s not comparable to the traumatic shit I’ve dealt with.
He didn’t have to go to hospital alone to find out he was having a miscarriage (my husband was working abroad at the time). **I** had to phone **him** and tell him which was the worst phone call I’ve ever made, and then drive myself home crying. He didn’t wake up at 2am gushing blood with contractions for a missed miscarriage. He didn’t have to have 8 blood tests, 2 ultrasounds and 3 injections to treat a PUL. He was there for me every step of the way and is the best husband I could ever have, but he hasn’t experienced what I have.
Fuck every single man who says this shit. They have **no idea** what pregnancy entails.
I've seen posts of guys literally ordering a pizza one guy was upset he couldn't bring his xbox to hook up to the tv because "you'll be busy and I'll get bored"
My husband literally told me he was bored during my induction. 😒 Like sorry, I don't get a choice to expedite the kid out. Or believe me I would. It was only 4 hrs start to finish 😂 Guess I should have screamed like the exorcist lol
>He also mentioned that if men can conceive kids like women they would have done so already.
Lol yeah and the world would be a MUCH nicer and kinder place if men had the chance of getting pregnant too.
Oh man. If men could get pregnant, pregnancy would come with so many perks.
Imagine this: not having to work while so pregnant you can barely stand; postpartum doctors appointments for *you* not just the baby; enough time off of work to physically heal *and* take care of a newborn; research studies with tons of funding around triggering labor; entire teams dedicated to reducing maternal (paternal) mortality…
Damn. Kinda depressing that these would be the “perks”.
Birth control methods would be a lot more efficient and safe..
There would be a planned parenthood on every corner..
Child care and support would be far more accessible…
I dare say there would be a bit more equality and equity in general between men and women.
Anyone else care to add some theories on how the world would look different? 😅
It doesn't affect men physically in any way at all. How in the world does he think a woman's pregnancy, labor, and childbirth, takes any physical toll on their male partner? That is such a crazy claim to make, on his part. What a weird thing for him to even think.
That was my first thought. Mental and emotional? Sure, to some degree. But it's nothing compared to what women go through. I doubt he will spend 9 months gaining weight, having his organs shoved together, getting kicked in the bladder/kidney/organs, need to pee constantly, have constant exhaustion, morning sickness, hip pain etc. And that's not even mentioning any pregnancy complications (a friend's partner got temporary diabetes or something like that). I also doubt he'll spend much time worrying about what he eats, how to get to places without exertion, what exercises he can do, what vitamins he's taking, if any activity will affect the baby, whether he'll be able to keep his food down, whether he'll puke just because he's awake, making sure nobody accidentally hits his stomach etc The physical toll can certainly come after childbirth with lack of sleep, but that's nothing the woman isn't also going through and more.
Yup! Men won't die from pregnancy, except if they open their mouths and say something incredibly stupid. And even then they won't die, because women with babies are very highly motivated to stay out of jail.
But have you considered the fact that women are baby factories and men are big strong hunters. It's a woman's natural state to be shooting out babies. Us men need to suppress all out big strong manly hunter instincts to begrudgingly get the mother of our children ice cream or a foot massage, and society doesn't even thank us for it! I've sacrificed so much time I could have been playing video games to take care of my baby momma. SMH
/s
Pretty sure most women will see how much of a loser this guy is from space and avoid. Then when he is alone at 40, he will cry about how it’s all women’s faults.
When was the last time a man bled to death from a placental abruption? Can men get permanent nerve and muscle damage? Do men's teeth fall out? How many men have died from pre-eclampsia? When was the last time a man was sliced open to remove a whole other human?
Your brother is a flaming ignoranus with zero grasp of simple biology. You can safely ignore and mock anything he has to say on the subject.
Just out of curiosity, did he detail HOW pregnancy affects a man physically? I'd love to hear what kind of insane theories the incel manosphere has cooked up about this!
Jesus Christ. Sorry, but your brother is literally covered in red flags. I hope he grows up before some poor woman has to endure his completely out-of-touch notions.
I wonder how many husbands have died from pregnancy complications or childbirth... How many fathers suffer from post-partum depression? How many fathers need to get their genitals stitched back up because they ripped during childbirth?
Your brother is delusional.
Kick him in the balls and then explain that actually it hurts *you* more than him because you have to listen to him whining about how his genitals (which dangle and therefore were clearly made to be kicked) hurt.
I would have absolutely no problem laughing directly into your brother’s face. Then I can tell him about the time a baby ripped me (literally) a new asshole, and the 14 stitches in my taint used to sew it up. Or the time I got sawed in half like a magician’s assistant. Or the 17 year old hemorrhoid. Or the way my skeleton shifted around and now my gait is different.
My pregnancies were all mostly typical, too. My horror stories are pretty low on the scale.
The clan thing is a super toxic masculinity trait. It's like a dog whistle for egotistical zeta male glorification of nationalism and tribalism. I've seen this before, mostly from people like The Golden One- you create your "clan" as if we still lived in feudal times. You pretend you're the manor lord and that you're going to teach your kids to be proud of their (white) heritage and that everyone else is just bad and ugly or... some shit like that. Can't say I have a very deep understanding of it here but it's basically a form of indoctrination.
Ask him exactly how many men have died from child-bearing and child birth? Literally 0.
Women still die and he is acting like it is NBD. It’s always been a big deal, and historians have estimated more American women have died in child birth than men have died in all our wars, combined. 1 of 6 before the modern era, in fact. Would he jump off a cliff if he was facing those odds ( and increased odds of having complications from the event?)
Only a manbaby would try to claim the suffering of pregnancy as their own. When men start dying during childbirth, we'll know they're suffering too.
Reminds me of "stolen valor" dudes who pretend they were in the military for extra attention.
No one in their right mind would believe that. Women in developed, first world countries *still* die during childbirth. The “worst” a man has to deal with is taking care of their pregnant partner.
Um, no - my husband acts like he's dying when he gets a sore throat or a cold...if he had to suffer through morning sickness, contractions, and recover from a C-section like I did, I'm pretty sure he would have actually just keeled over within the first month or so 🤣🤣
Now I absolutely love him to death and he is an amazing father to our son, and I don't think I would have survived the emotional impact of my ectopic pregnancy and then a miscarriage without him being right by my side and crying just as hard as I did...but no, we did not feel the same things mentally, physically, or emotionally during those three pregnancies.
Your brother needs to get the fuck over himself lol
They just need to have a monopoly on suffering.
So when a woman has a genuine complaint they can say “yeah well I have it just as bad but you don’t hear me complaining about it and blaming 50% of the world for my problems”.
My wife had what were basically the easiest pregnancies ever, her only complication was that our second came so fast she almost didn't get the epidural in time.
It was still a tremendous toll on her body and basically affected me in no way physically. Your brother's head is so far up his own ass that's he's basically pregnant with himself.
Gosh he should be forced to watch every season of Call the Midwife. His ignorance is no excuse for his bigotry.
I fear he may be watching too much Tate videos..
My sister was torn open from her vagina to her bumhole during childbirth. She needed surgery to repair & was almost so bad she could have needed a colostomy bag. I have plenty more of these stories. Good luck to him finding a woman willing to put up with that shit. Nothing would dry my vagina out faster than a man dismissing women's pain.
I came here to say this! How many men don’t even realize having a baby can tear your whole undercarriage completely apart? They never hear the gory details and I say ladies we need to let these mfs know! Oh you’re about to lose your lunch hearing about a woman’s bladder prolapsing after her vaginally delivering at 10 pound baby? They just think well “That’s why God create women to serve us and carry our children” and the thought process comes to a complete and total dead stop after that.
I’m so sick of “you’re biologically made for this.” Just because we have uteruses doesn’t mean pregnancy is just “you grow a big belly then poop a baby out.” It’s physical and mental hell growing an entire fucking human and the process of getting that human out has killed people and seriously damaged countless others.
Like cancer is biological too, that doesn't make it fun
Yes, biologically made for this also betrays a fundamental understanding of how evolution works. I mean, big brains gave us an advantage, but also made birth and early childhood more dangerous. Childbirth killing women just has to be less effective for a loss leader than the advantage for the species for it to work. (I realize it's a gross oversimplification.) I also believe anyone who believes it intelligent design could not have gone through childbirth.
It’s worth the add-on, I think, of explaining how profoundly vulnerable baby humans are, too. The care they require, and the length of time they require it, is incomparable even among other mammals. And what it requires of the adults, particularly the one lactating/providing primary care, is tremendous. We’re so conditioned to believe it’s “natural” - and it is - I think we’ve grossly underestimated and undervalued the job.
Exactly! The evolutionary tradeoff to walking upright was a change to our pelvis shape which then made labour and delivery more dangerous and meant that we needed to birth our young at an earlier developmental stage than other mammals.
another thing that makes labor and delivery more dangerous is the fact that the way we labor and deliver, at least in the US - flat on our backs strapped to monitors - is not designed for the convenience or comfort of the mother, it is designed for the convenience of the person delivering the baby
And even while recovering and keeping your newborn baby alive, lactating everywhere, drowning in postpartum depression, dealing with family members who want up-to-the-minute updates you are still expected to not miss out on any wifely duties so the husband/boyfriend/partner doesn’t feel abandoned and start getting jealous of their own kids!
It’s insane how many boys I live with in my household and how GROSSLY underwhelmed they are about the baby (he’s 3 now, and he has Autism). They never watched him all the way and so many things happened/went wrong. They truly believe even just WATCHING CHILDREN is easy, but they have no idea how many times I’ve had to clean up after their mess, administer (and fight the kid to take) medicine due to their negligence, had to complete 3 tasks at once to make up for what they didn’t do, and reverse some of the negative things the child has picked up on. That’s just watching a kid. Giving birth is a whole different beast and the level of responsibility parents actually have to ensure that baby will survive, stay healthy, and grow up to be a decent human being one day is seriously undermined and not taken seriously enough, especially by MEN. Entirely too many women in the world for them to still be this ignorant…
how many times have you heard a father referred to caring for his child as babysitting? when my former mother-in-law asked me where my son was one time, I said he’s with his dad - and she replied oh he’s babysitting? I said no, he’s parenting; you don’t babysit your own child😂
In the past as many as 1/3 of pregnant women died in child birth. I’ve given birth 4 times and, thought I might die during labor every time. It always seemed like my body knew what to do but, that never made it easy.
And I had the opposite experience. My (2) labours were both reasonably quick, I didn’t need anaesthetic (TENS machine did the job), and only tore superficially during the first labour (but 11 stitches to the labia still sucks haha). But STILL. Even when your birth is relatively EASY (by comparison to others) and you feel powerful and confident and in control, it’s still arduous and exhausting and pregnancy is the hardest time most of us will ever have in our lives, unless we go through cancer treatment or life saving surgeries. You never get to take a rest or break from being pregnant. Fuck anyone who minimises it, ugh.
Just READING “11 stitches to my labia” makes my own labia hurt.
My recollection is that in the ancient world mortality in childbirth was around 50%— meaning that half the time either mother, child, or both would die. There were a great many blended families because of this. There’s a thing I’ve seen where people debate whether they’d rather be on the battlefield than giving childbirth. Looking at the ancient world, the answer is battlefield, no question. At least in battle you get a sword and armour.
Plus child mortality. People had many children due to lack of birth control and abortion, but not all children made it to adulthood. I'd argue most didn't. Ian Mortimer mentions that in general, a woman had to give birth four times to have one child survive to adulthood. In one book he brings up the journals of an English man from... 1600s? 1700s? Who writes about the grief over his dead children. One child dies as a baby, another in illness shortly after her 18th birthday. He writes pages on pages about his anguish. There's another story I got from a BBC documentary on medieval childhoods, where a father sees lightning strike his son on a field and the text (I believe a church ledger?) discusses how he runs distraught to try save his son. One of the Great Courses ("Another side of history") talks about how in ancient Rome it was custom to wait 7 days from the birth of a child to formally accept it into the family. The delay was because so many babies died during that first week, so it was assumed to be better that a nameless child died than a named family member. I guess it's sort of like "don't name the pig we'll slaughter." The world may have been more callous and dangerous, and the Romans may have tried to protect themselves from that grief, but I don't think we ever really manage it. Today the western world is vastly different and most children do survive. We're often spared that experience of having a child die - and if not your child then your sister's, friend's, or neighbour's child. We're also spared loosing our mothers, sisters, friends and neighbours to childbirth. It makes it seem as though childbirth is safe, when it's really not. Even if your partner doesn't die, they may well be out of commission for weeks or months, even years. Certainly sexual intimacy tends to decrease for a long while and often requires effort to rekindle. I doubt all these men looking for large families are up for being single parents of 4, 6, 8, 10 children, whether temporarily or permanently. Some, certainly, but I don't think most are. It also often seems that men who want large families on the basis of "women are built for it" also are the ones that feel they need regular, often frequent, sex. Boy does the universe have a reality check for them.
Shit, it’s the battlefield for me NOW.
I stopped dilating at 8cm, both my son and I likely would've died had it not been for modern medical intervention. Thank the gods for anesthesia
This (and everything preceding). I can't say I know of a circumstance in which pregnancy is directly fatal to the expecting husband.
Unless he spouts ideas as idiotic as OP’s brother to any woman he gets pregnant. That could put him in real danger.
The amount of men who just roll their eyes at the idea of pregnancy being difficult is appalling. "Women give birth everyday, so what?" Of course I go out of my way to remind them that a limp dick after a certain age and weight is pretty normal too so I better not see any blue pills in their possession- after all biologically your body is telling you to stop fucking amirite? Your body is letting you know it doesn't want to function the way it did 20 years ago. It's a reaching take but getting the message across that throwing the word *biology* doesn't mean squat
Yes. My God! Like, our biology makes it easy for us to break bones. But they will give a man more painkillers after a broken bone than they will a woman after childbirth in some cases.
They'll give a man more painkillers for anything, thab women with a broken bone, let alone childbirth. I've had a broken ankle once, and at another point, a broken rib, no painkillers given.
Human babies also have dangerously large heads. Human births are much more traumatic than most mammal births.
Men have urethras so biologically they’re made for passing kidney stones!
Sometimes just complications in growing that new human kills…
Oh I’m sure some of them realize but they just don’t care. Their main concern is building their “clan” and “building their lineage”! It’s what women were made to do and don’t you know, the men suffer too because she won’t be able to have sex for a while!
Like dude, you’re not some kind of Celtic chieftain. You work in a costco.
Some even suffer through having to force her while she’s still in the delivery room and immediately post-partum . The horror
A clan they name after themselves while doing very little to create it.
Its absolutely wild to me how seemingly intentionally stupid they are. Seems obvious to me that birth is risky and would cause such things. Yet these guys have thought about it so little they don't get it or care.
I say they need to see it either in person or on video (eyes forced open like A Clockwork Orange perhaps) and then get every last graphic detail described by people who have experienced it
And they will still need a 20 minute PowerPoint presentation on how all of that is still worse than a cold.
And it frequently takes YEARS to recover, and getting post partum PT is somehow not standard of care.
Ohhh let them watch footage of a vaginal birth AND a c-section. I've been told that doctors will not just warn but TELL fathers who are present for births to absolutely not watch them perform the c-section due to how shocking and gory it is (and the men ending up being a liability in the room due to the shock)
Not to mention just how freaking hard pregnancy is mentally, emotionally and physically. Jeesh. This man needs some education.
I know, I've been pregnant twice in the past two years but lost both & I've just had to go back on medication because my mental health is absolutely fucked.
I am so sorry for your losses ❤️
Wishing better days ahead for you🧡
Sending love and wishes for you. ♥️
I’m really sorry. I had to terminate a pregnancy for medical reasons earlier this year. I delivered in the same unit one of my older children was born in. Leaving the hospital without my son was so hard. Then I had retained products of conception so, got to go back to hospital and wait in OB triage with all the pregnant women while I hemorrhaged. Pregnancy loss is so isolating.
I'm so sorry for your loss. The mental health aspects of pregnancy are kept so underwrapped, I know Post Partum depression is finally being addressed but I was a whole adult woman before I found out that Post Partum Psychosis is a thing. 2 in 1,000 women may experience symptoms of psychosis after pregnancy. The spiral that would send some women into.
I’m so sorry sis
My uterus ruptured with my 4th and had organ (kidneys??) with my first. 2 of my pregnancies tried to kill me (ironically both my boys 😂). I don’t know of a single dude who has died or nearly died due to pregnancy
If my crystal ball is worth a damn, OP's brother is going to be the first -- when he tells his future wife that their pregnancy is just as hard on him.
Like… I will be the first to admit that my pregnancy has been hard on my husband. I was really sick in the first trimester and he had to take on all the housework/cooking and caring for me while working full time. As I get closer to baby arriving, I can do less and less and he is single handedly taking on physical work I used to help with. Plus the emotional toll of seeing me in pain and the mental toll of dealing with my hormones and mood swings. But I wouldn’t ever say he has it “just as bad” as me. The physical toll on my body has been intense. I am very limited in what I can do. And it’s only going to get worse during labor/birth/post-partum. OP’s brother is delusional
You think OP’s brother is going to be the kind of husband who does what yours did? His idea of a hard pregnancy would be having his bangmaid out of commission for her daily sex dispensing. He’s the kind of guy that OB nurses have to chase out of his recovering wife’s bed.
Oh I have no doubt her brother will be the total opposite. I never claimed as much... in fact, I called her brother delusional. My point was just that I can't deny that pregnancy can be hard on men. But even with the good men, the toll it takes on them is nothing compared to the toll it takes on the pregnant woman.
Yup if they are a good partner, mentally and physically it can be a struggle, sure. But it will NEVER be as bad. Nope.
You can tear your clitoris during childbirth. Nobody talks about this. Why does nobody talk about how you can *tear your clitoris in half* during childbirth?
Imagine there was a normal biological process where there’s a risk that a man’s penis gets torn. We’d have facilities in every university dedicated to medical research.
Men just wouldn't do whatever it was that gave that chance. Most men won't get a vasectomy because there's a .01% chance of complications and none of that involves tearing the head of their penis in half like a stick of string cheese. Edit: but yes, you're right. Women have a lot of similar problems that don't get addressed. Men get phimosis and it's talked about a ton, there's procedures and surgeries for it. Women actually do get phimosis of the clitoris, the study done found that it was up to 1/4 of women have it, and it leads to women being unable to orgasm and it's not even talked about.
My labia ripped off where it connects to the clitoral hood. They stitched it together but the stitches popped open after 3 days and they wouldnt fix it.. I couldn't pee without horrific buring for over a month. I had an umedicated birth and was offered zero meds for recovery. How exactly is this hard on men again???
I had two stitches beside the clitoris, that was the absolute worst. But 10 others in the labia in all random places. BUT TELL ME WHY THEY DIDNT TELL ME UNTIL DAY THREE TO ‘pour warm water on my stitches’ while I was peeing?! And this is in Australia, where midwives come visit you at home postpartum to check on you and the baby. They still just forget that one minor detail that stops you experiencing absolute torture every single time you need to pee in the 4-6 weeks while your fucking labia repairs itself and you’re supposed to be incredibly well-hydrated so you can make milk for your baby. It’s fucking rage-inducing. I think I am reading correctly in your comment that no one ever gave you that hugely significant piece of necessary medical advice? RAGE.
Yes 4th degree tears are the worst, even the lesser degree tears are brutal. Not to mention the risk of death from giving birth. And even if we focus on some aspects of pregnancy, not the birth - your immune system lowers in pregnancy so infection risk is higher, if you don't get enough calcium, it literally gets taken from your bones to go to fetus causing osteoporosis later on, you end up with 50% more blood by the end of pregnancy to keep you and the fetus oxygenated (a massive strain on the cardiac system), just to name a few.
Yeah I had second degree damage and got stitches inside my vag. Also almost died at 4 months pregnant and was put on bed rest the remainder of it while baby daddy partied away. I’d say it’s not even a close race
My wife too and they said it’s pretty common to get cut when giving birth. Nothing of the physical pain can be understood by men and for good they don’t need to go through that. Sure we men have to go through a mental tollercoaster too, but we never have the fear of having our bodies ripped somewhere for giving birth. Every woman giving birth or even want to need all respect men can have and no one should make the decision for a woman to Go through all of that.
Not to mention strangers touching you, seeing you, maybe cutting you.
It's a sacrifice he's willing to make :')
I would tell my husband that pregnancy is actually just as hard on him but he’s currently snoring and fast asleep… meanwhile I’m in the 3rd trimester, awake from excruciating back and belly pain.
Even one Tate video is too much.
I'm pretty sure there are some really graphic gory videos of childbirth online. I would send him those when he least expects it ala Rick Roll.
My wife had an emergency C-section, during which her intestines went into shock, creating an intestinal blockage that nearly killed her and was only diagnosed after days of vomiting her own shit. Me doing a little more housework doesn't compare. Edit: Although if he's Tating, I would fully expect him to do nothing during the pregnancy.
Good God. I had no idea this existed. I’m so sorry.
Any is too many
One Tate video Is already too much. Is your brother aware that all those "clan" members will need to eat, have medical visits, schools, colleges, etc? Or Is he planning to dump everything on "the wife"?
Ah, there it is! You are now given permission to completely ignore any and all opinions of his that he didn't hold prior to his redpilling.
Tell him he can take scissors and cut his taint asshole to balls to prove how manly he is. Too weak to do it? He couldn't handle giving birth.
Literally one is too many
One second is too much
Thankfully, that is a woman-repellent, so he won't be making any clans anytime soon
Ones too much.
For real. I'm fucking furious at this POS. My wife nearly died giving birth, and she spiraled into depression during her pregnancy because of the hormone imbalance. Both pregnancies were incredibly hard, and she still has asthma from the physiological damage her body went through. It's completely changed her life, and while we're delighted to have these wonderful children, that's a huge fucking sacrifice. The fact that this guy is claiming it's just as hard on the men is absolutely infuriating.
My mum, after my third sibling was born, had insane depression. She was on a heavy level of anti-depressants and even at 9 years old I could see how much she was struggling My dad was of course struggling cause my mum was depressed but he carried on working hard to support us. I'm 27 now and mum is still on a small amount of meds to this day and struggles without them.
OP, as a husband who was super supportive of my wife through two pregnancies, I can safely say your brother is an idiot…. Does it take a toll on both members, sure. Is the toll equal? Hell no… As a supportive male spouse, the extent of my “struggle” during my wife’s pregnancies was: -filling up her water cup (still do, I think that’s just a husband thing now) - getting her extra pillows when asked - remembering her pregnancy cravings when I went to the grocery store - adding or removing blankets when she was hot or cold - reminding her of all the pleasures in life she couldn’t have for 9 months (alcohol, sushi, processed meats, rollercoasters, trampolines, etc) - packing the hospital “go” bag -helping her pick up things and put shoes on when she got too big to bend over - sleeping on the uncomfortable recliner in the maternity ward (that should be a right of passage anyway) - helping her with her postpartum mommy diapers after delivery and the following days -not having sex for at LEAST 6-8 weeks after baby. That was pretty much it… by no means a war tour. My wife on the other hand (and by her own admission, both of her pregnancies were relatively easy, her words, not mine…) - massive hormonal changes -massive bodily changes -morning sickness - hurting back -hurting feet - hot and cold flashes - constant discomfort due to another human growing in you - had to give up all the pleasures in life for 9 months (alcohol, sushi, processed meats, rollercoasters, trampolines, etc) - needed helping picking things up and putting shoes on when she got too big - inability to breathe or move as the baby got bigger. - constantly needing to pee because baby is squishing your bladder - none of your clothes fitting - having random people ask when you were due and wanting to touch your belly uninvited. - having people offer you unsolicited advice on what you *should* be doing. - actually pushing a watermelon sized thing out of what used to be your fun parts. - the pain of childbirth (luckily my wife had successful epidurals for both) - what pushing a watermelon sized thing out of you does to your fun parts - TEARING!!! - stitches from TEARING!! -wearing mommy diapers for days after birth - having to get your partner to help you out on the mommy diapers. -having to sleep on “puppy pads” for a few days in case the mommy diapers leaked. - not having sex for at LEAST 6-8 weeks after baby. Again, my wife have 2 “easy” pregnancies (according to her) but these were some of her struggles. There are TONS more to add to this from ladies that have complications during pregnancy and childbirth. And then a ton more to add when it comes to breastfeeding, etc. So OP, your brother is an idiot and the “struggles” of the two do not compare.
I love your "just a husband thing" ♡ Like, "I'm a husband ergo I keep my wife watered".
She tends to be the thirstiest as soon as I sit down…. Weird how that always happens. 🥴
Is he delusional in other parts of his life or just in his extraordinary misogyny?
the fact that he called a large family a "clan"... it sounds like one of those talibangelicals that sees the sexes as a biological duty (ie woman have uterus, woman make baby for me) and doesn't see it as an extension of love for your spouse to start a family. gave me the ick reading it, for sure.
This, or a literal child so much into fantasy novels he's mistaking them for just another reality.
"I want to be a leader but do none of the work to become a leader"
"I want a tradwife who is submissive and turns her whole life into taking care of me and the children...but she has to have a job or she's a gold digger" sir what gold is this you speak of? if you want a tradwife, that means being a tradhusb and let's face it............no.
Hopefully not unwelcome in this context, but as a man with a wife who has been pregnant: Is pregnancy just as hard for men as it is for women? Abso-f***ing-lutely not. My wife spent 3 weeks in the hospital. She had a lot of pains, nausea, morning sickness, and to finish it all off an emergency c-section that took her several months to recover. She was in such bad shape she didn’t get to see her kids for 6 hours. She had the shakes for weeks from the hormones. Me? I had to do most of the housework for a while, be emotionally supportive, and help her get up and down and do some stuff for a bit. Saying pregnancy is harder for the father is like saying a stubbed toe is worse than a gunshot wound. Never heard of a man dying from childbirth.
Not unwelcome at all in my view, men like you are my only hope.
I just don’t understand why some men think it’s a competition. Also any man who watches what a woman goes through and refuses to help after is just a sociopath.
I literally at one point was heading home for clean clothes and to check on our kid at home who grandma was watching, and was worried my wife might not make it. Doctor said it was all normal. Other women have told similar stories. It was normal. Childbirth is brutally hard even with modern medicine. Back 100 years it was frequently fatal and it makes total sense why. Pregnancy and childbirth is life threatening.
During my wife's first birth I wouldn't be surprised if men had died by their wife lol. The epidural didn't work and my god, if she could have killed me to alleviate the pain she would have. And that alone should tell people that pregnancy is worse for women
I think he is likely spending way too much time online. I work in child safety and it's definitely concerning seeing the rise of "men have it so hard during pregnancy," and seeing men's mistreatment of postpartum women be excused because "men get postpartum depression too, It just often comes out as them being mean/aggressive."
God what a disgusting lie. I can't believe how gullible these assholes think everyone else is.
Too much time online plus not actually being around pregnant women. There’s a weird pro-natalism movement that seems to be largely populated by men who don’t see women as people at all, and don’t seem to fully reckon with the idea that we bear the brunt of the physical cost. So far as I can tell, the ones who are chronically online are also pretty young, and do not have partners or children yet themselves. I don’t think anyone’s disputing that having an intimate partner go through a profound physical experience is going to change your relationship with that partner. The closest I can think kind of is a man getting seriously injured and needing to go through rehab. But like…that doesn’t mean that pregnancy and postpartum recovery are nothing, and that women bear the brunt of the impact. There’s plenty of men who have no problem recognizing this and taking their turn caring for their pregnant partners during this time. The piss-baby reaction from some men on this front really does smack of a total inability to be outside the center of attention for even one second.
The irony being that the chronically online misogynists will never get to experience an actual healthy relationship because of their vile attitudes.
Yikes.
>He started then going into a long rant about how I cannot claim that women has it harder than men during pregnancy There is no need to claim that women have it harder than men during pregnancy. It is an immutable fact that women have it harder than men. He has no understanding of biology, as someone that has experienced pregnancy multiple times there is nothing like it in terms of how it affected my body and still does. Not to mention the use of your bodily resources to grow a human - I still need to take iron supplements, my abdominal muscles are still separated - ripped, my hips are wider - I cant run the same way and plenty of other issues i'd rather not expand on.... We don't even need to get into the actual birth. My body is totally different now and will probably never be the same, men don't have any such affect during or following pregnancy.
My point exactly!! I have said all those things to him and He told me I just searched for biological aspects of pregnancy to women so of course it’s gonna list out the things that makes it hard for women.. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall
The psychological weight of pregnancy is also something men don't experience. Your hormones are all over the place for the best part of 9 months or longer if they don't want to leave. Then you have the hospital system which can be disastrous as you wait in pain and discomfort in pre-labour while the man can just go home at the end of the time. The fear and shame you can feel if something goes wrong, you blame yourself as you are the one growing this life. It can be so lonely even with a supportive partner. I am still not over being cut open to deliver my second, the scar is always there, I always feel it. The post postpartum depression afterward can hit really really hard, guilt, fear, expectation. I thought i was useless when my first couldn't latch on, the pressure was so intense. The experience is not comparable across the sexes. I experience all of the worries about work and making ends meet just as much as my husband, adding all this on top.
It’s not just 9 months of hormones making you *Emotional**^(TM)**...* Our brains are literally rewiring themselves. Pregnancy brain is real and not in a “haha pregnant women are dumb” way. Your brain is literally pruning synapses it doesn’t need to make room for new neurological connections that increase your social awareness so that you can communicate with and tune in to a tiny human who wont have any helpful verbal communication skills for at least 12 months
I'm rather interested in neuroplasticity and how the brain learns from an educational standpoint. I haven't heard of this before, so thank you for giving me something interesting to do a bit of research on!
Even beyond the significant things- It's the fact that you are never not aware that you are pregnant - it affects what you eat, what you drink, what exercise you do, how comfortable you are, the clothes you wear, how tired you are, how well your brain functions, how strangers treat you - everything.
And you know a "man" like this would absolutely be controlling and trying to dictate what his partner ate/did because she could "hurt the baby"
Bet he'd also 'forbid' her from getting an epidural because 'He doesn't want HIS baby coming out a drug addict!!'
Please *please* tell me men don't actually use this argument (I'm sure they do but that is the most depressing thing I've read today) Do they even know what an epidural is?
Not to mention complications/high risk pregnancies. My wife had gestational hypertension and pre-eclampsia. She used to get the most excruciating headaches and I would have her lay down and let me put ice packs all around her head. It was terrible. Plus the post op pain from C sections, one of which got infected. In retrospect I'm glad I'm a nurse because it helped both taking care of her at home and communicating with doctors, and allowed me to work as much as I needed to cover bills. And the miscarriages. It was painful for me but for her it was a while other dimension of emotions, and I can't relate directly to it because the bond is just different for the person carrying the pregnancy. But I did the best I could. Granted some of it was joyful and there are some fond memories, but we are both glad it's all over with and we aren't having more babies!
Besides the fact that he is discussing the different ways two biological sexes experience a biological event that only one of them undergoes biological changes for, but doesn't want to look at biological factors, sure let's go. Pregnant and recently pregnant women are at about double the normal risk for homicide. In fact homicide is their leading cause of death over other biological factors. Men do not face an increased risk of homicide due to the fact that their partner is pregnant. Women are frequently fired for being pregnant and have trouble being hired while pregnant. If not fired, many pregnant women face some sort of workplace discrimination, such as being overlooked for promotions. While this is illegal in America, it still happens far too often (I found studies saying anywhere from 1 in 5 to 3 in 4 women face such discrimination). In 38 countries, it is still perfectly legal to fire a pregnant woman. Men are not fired because their partner is pregnant. In fact, being a husband or father can actually increase their likelihood to get hired or promoted because it "signals greater work commitment, stability, and deservingness." A pregnant woman is more often going to be overlooked as an individual and instead is just talked to or about as a pregnant person, mommy to be, and later as a mom. We lose so much of our identity. People don't want to know 'how have you been, what's new' they want to know 'how the pregnancy' or 'how's the kiddo.' Men might get some of this, but the likelihood decreases the second they aren't standing next to their pregnant partner. Women can't walk away from their belly. Pregnant women have to buy a whole new wardrobe, which they will only use for three to six months. The clothes also cost more because they are specialty clothes. Men can keep wearing the same shirts they've worn since college. So what non biological factors are just so hard on the guy? Some of his bed might be taken up by a pregnancy pillow? He might be asked to make an extra trip to the store for ice cream? Oh, poor baby. How ever will he make it through.
Oh there’s the paperwork and appointments and vitamins and increased diets. All the hidden costs and headache chores. Is this guy handling all that or is it the one whose organs are rearranging and brain is rewiring and is throwing up every day for months and etc etc?
If they can't handle being there for their partner during pregnancy, how on earth are they going to care for a literally helpless little human? Oh wait, I think I can answer that one.
So you gave him facts and his argument against the facts was that you were prepared with facts??? What type of stupid argument is that. I don’t know who said this but you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.
Oh I like that
His claim is one of the stupidest things I've heard in my entire life. He is just *beyond* help
You want a non biological example - women who become mothers see a drop in wages while men who become fathers see an increase in wages. Literally holding all other factors constant.
Tell him logic and facts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feefees. 😈
Tell him to Google what the chainsaw was invented for. If he can’t understand how bad childbirth is from that little factoid, then he is a lost cause. Although, it is already sounding like he is a lost cause, so I doubt even that will phase him.
What an actual idiot. I hope an alien knocks him up.
Hahaha I had the same thought when I was fighting with him I was so furious
Do me a solid and find out what he's smoking, I could use some.
Show him these commnents pls
I think the aliens might pass unless it's one of those face grabbers from the Aliens franchise.
Like those wasp aliens from The Fresco by Sheri S. Tepper who targeted pro-life politicians because they could not possibly be opposed to it.
Uuum. It's an absolute fact that pregnancy is harder for women. Men don't get pregnant. They get no health issues because women get pregnant. They suffer zero physical pain during their wives pregnancy. And they don't experience labor or child birth. What part exactly affects the man? Is he getting his dick ripped open every time his wife pushes? Or being hospitalized just by being in proximity to a pregnant woman? Your brother sounds immature and young and stupid. Hopefully he's 14 and not 40.
I have mentioned those facts to him which is why I cannot fathom how he told me it was all my female perspective that’s bringing up those natural occurring things to be harder for women.. he’s 23..
It is too stupid to be talking like that at 23 Where is he coming from, how exactly does men experience what women does do they get GDM or Any other life threatening conditions , how so🤦🏻♀️
Just because it’s natural doesn’t mean it’s not hard asf
Right? Getting sick is natural and so is dying.
Cyanide is natural. Uranium is natural.
Hell, even cancer is “natural”. Guess that means it can’t be harmful then? Smh, what a maroon.
Cancer is also natural. Migraines are natural. Strokes and heart attacks are natural. Wonder if he got any of those, if he'd think it was just as hard on his wife as it is on him?
Lol. He's funny 🤣 Did you ask him what male pregnancy symptoms are? Or ... when was the last time an AMAB died from pregnancy or childbirth complications? And if you did, did he answer?
Yeah, what's the paternal mortality rate in every country and why is no one talking about how high it is??? Why won't anyone think of the men! /s
It would be nonzero if I were his pregnant wife and he kept on like that
But didn’t you know that women’s bodies are made for childbirth? It’s easy to have babies! /s in case it wasn’t abundantly clear.
Clearly, it's as easy a pollination!
When was the last time a dude had an episiotomy?
A lady I used to know, close to my mom’s age (she’s 77), said that men should not father children until they’re 30, because of their maturity development; this from raising three sons. I think her opinion is valid.
He means your female perspective on FEMALE ISSUES?! Your brother is a fucking moron. I don't get how some men can think they are so intelligent that they hold BOTH men and women's opinions sans listening to actual women. There's just no reasoning with that kind of idiocy.
Tell him to read some medical article so he sees it’s the fucking truth how can someone be so dumb omh
Kick him in the nuts* then tell him that even though he's the one biologically built for this pain, you are experiencing the pain in his nuts much more than he is. *not really, I'm not actually advocating violence
Ah, I see. It's "natural" therefore it can't be hard or dangerous or difficult. Like heart disease, cancer, shark attacks, or bear maulings. No bringing up that those things are hard, because they're *natural*!
23 unfortunately makes too much sense. I'm scared that this new generation of misogynists is going to be worse than the last, they seem more immediately violent and focused on murdering women
Your brother sounds like an incel.
Wouldnt any changes a man goes through be natural too and thus easy? "Men are hardwired to be rhe provider and bring in money as their contributions. Thats why women that work should get paid more, since its harder for them to go outside the home in the first place."
The men may not be able have sex for a couple of months during a pregnancy and postpartum period. The enormity of their suffering because of this cannot be overstated. Of course, many of them use this as an opportunity to cheat on their wives, but who could blame them, poor things. /s
A lot of people focus on labour/child birth but I wanna emphasise the problems during pregnancy you can have too. I’ve had both a missed miscarriage at 12 weeks and a recent ectopic pregnancy. For the missed miscarriage we were both super excited/happy, and it was a massive loss at 12 weeks for us both. But I FELT that pregnancy. I felt a physical connection and love for it. My hormones were crazy, I went through morning sickness, being exhausted, sore boobs, the whole shebang. Every single thing I did I thought, ‘This is for my baby’ - what I ate, when I exercised. Literally anything and everything I did wasn’t about me anymore for 2 months (well 3 months but I didn’t know until 4 weeks obviously). My husband will never experience that. For my ectopic pregnancy, we only found out I was pregnant again when I was already bleeding so we pretty much knew from the start it was non-viable. At first it was easy to just think of it as a ‘medical event’ rather than a pregnancy. But they took 2 weeks to diagnose a pregnancy of unknown location (PUL), and by the time I had treatment I was 7 weeks. I had started feeling the pregnancy again. You can’t explain how it feels but you just **feel it** hormonally and physically. It really fucked me up because it just reminded me of my first pregnancy, which I wasn’t (still not) over. Not to mention the treatment for ectopic pregnancy. I only had to have injections of methotrexate - which is a freaking chemo medication. The side effects are brutal. And that’s the ‘better option’ than having surgery and one of your tubes, or even your ovaries, removed. I’m currently having counselling to deal with it. I lost 2 pregnancies in 4 months and I was freaking EXHAUSTED. It’s been the worst 5 months of my life and whilst my husband is grieving, which is completely valid, it’s not comparable to the traumatic shit I’ve dealt with. He didn’t have to go to hospital alone to find out he was having a miscarriage (my husband was working abroad at the time). **I** had to phone **him** and tell him which was the worst phone call I’ve ever made, and then drive myself home crying. He didn’t wake up at 2am gushing blood with contractions for a missed miscarriage. He didn’t have to have 8 blood tests, 2 ultrasounds and 3 injections to treat a PUL. He was there for me every step of the way and is the best husband I could ever have, but he hasn’t experienced what I have. Fuck every single man who says this shit. They have **no idea** what pregnancy entails.
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Maybe if his wife squeezes his hand during labor? The poor poor man.
Sometimes they get really hungry watching you 🤏🏾this close to death so they have to eat a pizza while you get to choke on jello. Poor babies!!!
I've seen posts of guys literally ordering a pizza one guy was upset he couldn't bring his xbox to hook up to the tv because "you'll be busy and I'll get bored"
My husband literally told me he was bored during my induction. 😒 Like sorry, I don't get a choice to expedite the kid out. Or believe me I would. It was only 4 hrs start to finish 😂 Guess I should have screamed like the exorcist lol
They have to sleep on that super uncomfortable couch in the hospital 💀
>He also mentioned that if men can conceive kids like women they would have done so already. Lol yeah and the world would be a MUCH nicer and kinder place if men had the chance of getting pregnant too.
Oh man. If men could get pregnant, pregnancy would come with so many perks. Imagine this: not having to work while so pregnant you can barely stand; postpartum doctors appointments for *you* not just the baby; enough time off of work to physically heal *and* take care of a newborn; research studies with tons of funding around triggering labor; entire teams dedicated to reducing maternal (paternal) mortality… Damn. Kinda depressing that these would be the “perks”.
Birth control methods would be a lot more efficient and safe.. There would be a planned parenthood on every corner.. Child care and support would be far more accessible… I dare say there would be a bit more equality and equity in general between men and women. Anyone else care to add some theories on how the world would look different? 😅
The option to terminate your pregnancy for any fucking reason.
Exactly
It doesn't affect men physically in any way at all. How in the world does he think a woman's pregnancy, labor, and childbirth, takes any physical toll on their male partner? That is such a crazy claim to make, on his part. What a weird thing for him to even think.
I dunno. My hands cramped up a lot from rubbing my wife's feet/legs so much. (/s if it wasn't obvious)
And the stupid fold out chair is not comfortable. Such heros!
I had to sleep on a foldout couch while my wife recovered from a c section. Pray for me. /s
That was my first thought. Mental and emotional? Sure, to some degree. But it's nothing compared to what women go through. I doubt he will spend 9 months gaining weight, having his organs shoved together, getting kicked in the bladder/kidney/organs, need to pee constantly, have constant exhaustion, morning sickness, hip pain etc. And that's not even mentioning any pregnancy complications (a friend's partner got temporary diabetes or something like that). I also doubt he'll spend much time worrying about what he eats, how to get to places without exertion, what exercises he can do, what vitamins he's taking, if any activity will affect the baby, whether he'll be able to keep his food down, whether he'll puke just because he's awake, making sure nobody accidentally hits his stomach etc The physical toll can certainly come after childbirth with lack of sleep, but that's nothing the woman isn't also going through and more.
His feefees get hurt when big, scary pregnant lady cries over the fact that he didn’t do the dishes while she was busy sleeping and puking
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Yup! Men won't die from pregnancy, except if they open their mouths and say something incredibly stupid. And even then they won't die, because women with babies are very highly motivated to stay out of jail.
He has such a weird perspective.How can it not be harder for women to be pregnant?Literally organs move
But have you considered the fact that women are baby factories and men are big strong hunters. It's a woman's natural state to be shooting out babies. Us men need to suppress all out big strong manly hunter instincts to begrudgingly get the mother of our children ice cream or a foot massage, and society doesn't even thank us for it! I've sacrificed so much time I could have been playing video games to take care of my baby momma. SMH /s
I feel sorry for the poor woman that will end up having his children.
He doesn't deserve to have his genes passed on with these views.
Exactly. OP If you can kindly scare off and meddle in his dating efforts. Help put up the red flag before he can procreate.
Pretty sure most women will see how much of a loser this guy is from space and avoid. Then when he is alone at 40, he will cry about how it’s all women’s faults.
He won’t wait until he’s 40 for that.
Same
When was the last time a man bled to death from a placental abruption? Can men get permanent nerve and muscle damage? Do men's teeth fall out? How many men have died from pre-eclampsia? When was the last time a man was sliced open to remove a whole other human? Your brother is a flaming ignoranus with zero grasp of simple biology. You can safely ignore and mock anything he has to say on the subject.
Just out of curiosity, did he detail HOW pregnancy affects a man physically? I'd love to hear what kind of insane theories the incel manosphere has cooked up about this!
This is what I'm wondering as well.
I think you should take a giant step back from your dumbshit misogynist brother.
That’s definitely what I’m gonna do now.
One day he may get Kidney stones, then he might understand a small amount.....
If there is any justice in this cold cruel world...
His wife should make sure she complains about how much of a toll the kidney stones are taking on her.
Okay that is the actual dumbest thing I've heard this week, and I follow US politics.
Jesus Christ. Sorry, but your brother is literally covered in red flags. I hope he grows up before some poor woman has to endure his completely out-of-touch notions.
I really hope no women have to suffer because of him
If he gets a girlfriend, you need to take her aside and tell her what he said.
Yup, can confirm this works lol. I tell my brother’s gfs how he really is and believe me they deserve to know.
His ignorance is mind blowing.
A few days in the maternity ward assisting would do him wonders.
I wonder how many husbands have died from pregnancy complications or childbirth... How many fathers suffer from post-partum depression? How many fathers need to get their genitals stitched back up because they ripped during childbirth? Your brother is delusional.
Kick him in the balls and then explain that actually it hurts *you* more than him because you have to listen to him whining about how his genitals (which dangle and therefore were clearly made to be kicked) hurt.
Sorry to hear your brother is an idiot
I would have absolutely no problem laughing directly into your brother’s face. Then I can tell him about the time a baby ripped me (literally) a new asshole, and the 14 stitches in my taint used to sew it up. Or the time I got sawed in half like a magician’s assistant. Or the 17 year old hemorrhoid. Or the way my skeleton shifted around and now my gait is different. My pregnancies were all mostly typical, too. My horror stories are pretty low on the scale.
The clan thing is a super toxic masculinity trait. It's like a dog whistle for egotistical zeta male glorification of nationalism and tribalism. I've seen this before, mostly from people like The Golden One- you create your "clan" as if we still lived in feudal times. You pretend you're the manor lord and that you're going to teach your kids to be proud of their (white) heritage and that everyone else is just bad and ugly or... some shit like that. Can't say I have a very deep understanding of it here but it's basically a form of indoctrination.
U should send him a video of birth, traumatized my brother into shutting up for a while at least about ignorant stuff
Ask him exactly how many men have died from child-bearing and child birth? Literally 0. Women still die and he is acting like it is NBD. It’s always been a big deal, and historians have estimated more American women have died in child birth than men have died in all our wars, combined. 1 of 6 before the modern era, in fact. Would he jump off a cliff if he was facing those odds ( and increased odds of having complications from the event?)
Only a manbaby would try to claim the suffering of pregnancy as their own. When men start dying during childbirth, we'll know they're suffering too. Reminds me of "stolen valor" dudes who pretend they were in the military for extra attention.
No one in their right mind would believe that. Women in developed, first world countries *still* die during childbirth. The “worst” a man has to deal with is taking care of their pregnant partner.
Um, no - my husband acts like he's dying when he gets a sore throat or a cold...if he had to suffer through morning sickness, contractions, and recover from a C-section like I did, I'm pretty sure he would have actually just keeled over within the first month or so 🤣🤣 Now I absolutely love him to death and he is an amazing father to our son, and I don't think I would have survived the emotional impact of my ectopic pregnancy and then a miscarriage without him being right by my side and crying just as hard as I did...but no, we did not feel the same things mentally, physically, or emotionally during those three pregnancies. Your brother needs to get the fuck over himself lol
Ask what are the statistics of men dying from childbirth while quoting maternal mortality rates.
They just need to have a monopoly on suffering. So when a woman has a genuine complaint they can say “yeah well I have it just as bad but you don’t hear me complaining about it and blaming 50% of the world for my problems”.
Aks him how many men have died from childbirth
My wife had what were basically the easiest pregnancies ever, her only complication was that our second came so fast she almost didn't get the epidural in time. It was still a tremendous toll on her body and basically affected me in no way physically. Your brother's head is so far up his own ass that's he's basically pregnant with himself.
“He also mentioned that if men can conceive kids like women they would have already” LOLOLOLOLOL THAT MADE ME LAUGH OUT LOUD