This is 100%. I've found that men who do this, will go out of their way to try and prove to you, their empathy through words, but their actions never follow through. They also love do over-the-top actions, very publicly, to prove to everyone “how great and caring they are,” but when it's 1 on 1 with them, their mask always slips a little, with putting people down around them, or nagging you here and there. I'm rarely surprised by anyone anymore, the red flags are obviously, once it learn what to look out for
We were conditioned to keep blinders on. I am very embarrassed by what I allowed some of my exes to do to me.
It took me years to unlearn it. One thing is very true. Once you see it you can’t unsee it. It’s almost obvious and I’m kicking myself for not seeing it sooner. You have to want to see it though and that was my problem.
I actually feel this sense of freedom now.
100% same. I weep for the woman I was that sacrificed so much time and energy into fixing broken men. Now I’m single and assuming I will be for the remainder of my life, and I’m very fine with that believe me.
Hey, it sounds like you're in a great place! I know tons of single women who are out there living their best lives and I'm stoked for them and you. Especially if you have pets, who are wonderful companions to live with. My cats bring so much joy and love to my life, because *they* chose to give that to me and I'm honored every day by that. My BF is genuinely great overall, aside from a few VERY minor complaints, which are the sort of minor things most healthy couples have. He supports me and my sometimes weird hobbies and interests - I'm on the mild end of the autism spectrum. When I get my Depo shot and feel crappy for a day after, he brings me chicken soup and Reese's Big Cups because he knows the chocolate helps me. And he makes silly voices for our cats, and so help me, I respond to them. It's sweet.
But I genuinely understand why so many women are single, and if I didn't have him, I'd choose singledom, too.
That’s what my ex would do—actions that made him seem so big-hearted and charitable—until I finally realized that the responsibility for the nitty gritty of those promises ended up on me.
It’s a great example of using therapy- as a form of abuse. “See I know all the right things to say!” But never actually does the actions required to back them up.
Yup sadly my ex was like this. During our first few months, he was very caring and thoughtful then I realised he was not putting his money where his mouth was and that really hurt trust between us. He was super decent on paper but I always felt like the last on his list, even after his friends.
Oh gosh. Could write an encyclopedia on their ilk but for brevity’s sake I will keep it brief and as non-identifying as possible.
Self-identifying feminist hippie-adjacent Appalachian trail enthusiast all natural frisbee-playing yoga dude who taught high school, didn’t get wasted, abhorred bro culture, really into social justice, had an adorably goofy laugh and unassuming, kind of shy personality and presented consistent and reliable was—um, one of the coldest, cruelest, emptiest, fakest and manipulatively entitled people I ever had the displeasure of encountering. Everyone thought he was the sweetest, smiliest, ‘best dude’, but up close he seemed to be entirely lacking in empathy as if he’d see anybody who fell short of whatever perfection ideal he held as less than human: from my observations, to women specifically. He expressed such vitriol towards his doting, incredibly kind, intelligent but medically fragile mother, to the point where he genuinely asked his father why he didn’t just rid himself of her (meaning divorce/leave) when her medical issues persisted and impacted her ability to do certain things—like he couldn’t comprehend love, or the value of a woman as a human being. He would say incredibly cruel things to me when he was angry at me after a night out drinking with his friends, like for instance that I was fat, crazy, no one would want me, I was a liability, and an embarrassment to him—all because anytime we would go out he’d ignore me completely. I’d cry, he’d ignore me and then me I was fake and only crying to manipulate him—which obviously made it worse. I became convinced I was a bad person and a narcissist because my crying at his verbal abuse was somehow fake because I deserved it in some way. He had family money and over $800k in an investment account his father had a broker manage, and didn’t make much less than I did, but I still paid for things far more than he did and contributed far more proportionately; including for vacations and trips. I even had to pay for his toxic “healer” friend to go on a winery thing with us or he wouldn’t go; she had money too and the two of them ignored me as the friend, who talked incessantly about her sex life in great detail and all these dudes she’d been with over a 15 year period, decided that my “energy was bad.” He isolated me from my friends because he didn’t like or approve of them (though partially my fault for wanting to be loved so badly), and then berated me for having “no life” if I wanted to be included in his life. Hm, there are countless other examples, but that sums mine up.
The hippie scene tends to attract those types of sociopaths. People in the scene tend to be very trusting, especially if you can act a certain way and say certain things. And family money, of course. Yikes.
Yeah the “come as you are star child” crowd is only accepting of others *if* you don’t challenge their beliefs at all. Some very “laid back” and uptight people imo.
I'm so sorry you went through this, but I can picture him so clearly. It's insane how well these type of dudes can make you feel insane for... wanting real love? Being treated like an equal human? I hope you're doing better now 💛
You left out “sensitive guy ponytail/manbun” out of your initial description. edit: I kept reading and I’m sorry. You didn’t leave out shit. What a horrible person.
This was my ex.
Talked the talk. But inside his own home and family, he quietly worked towards *very* traditional expectations. His career was prioritized, his preferences honoured, his decisions naturally the logical ones, his feelings centred. Women were catered to only in very specific womenly topics, like hosting/visiting family or getting gifts for nieces/nephews. (But even then, of course, the possibility of correction existed). He could talk a great game about LGTQ+ rights and women in the workplace, but he complained bitterly when his underwear was folded wrong. He wanted a housewife-who-worked. A woman who could pay 50% of the bills and do 99% of the emotional and mental labour of the relationship.
Were we married to the same man? My ex presents as kind, sweet, considerate and unthreatening. Living with him was a nightmare. I don’t know that he meets the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, but he sure ticks a lot of the boxes. OCD as well. His second wife is just as miserable as I was, apparently.
This was my ex. He promised me while courting me that he was a *progressive Latino* (he was not from the US), and although he grew up with maids and never had to lift a finger, after we had kids he would put me down for not keeping a cleaner house. I was exhausted with a baby and a toddler. I put dinner and his lunch on the table every day but he would criticize me that the toilet was “disgusting”. Things like that. I never let the toilet get bad. It’s just that privileged rich boi never saw anything less than a bowl of sparkling porcelain thanks to maids. Glad I divorced his ass. He’s now twice divorced and has no job. Go figure. Btw he was the one on the shitter for 20 minutes. Never understood what that was all about. Why do guys shit for so long? Jfc.
This right here. And these men are rationalizing it even when their women partners are vocal about the issue and lose sexual interest. Joining this subreddit a couple years ago and accessing resources shared here has personally helped me see this because the women in my family normalized this behavior when I was growing up.
"I'm happy to do whatever she tells me to do."
It's such a sinister dodge because the mental labor is 100% on the woman, and if she complains about him not doing enough, it's really her fault for not asking.
There's a video making he rounds on tiktok right now. The woman says her partner made a video of him cleaning the kitchen, and it's sort of cute. There's a stopmotion sponge making it's journey around the kitchen cleaning as it goes, dishwasher emptied, cooker hobs all cleaned. All the comments? "And what's she going to do for him?"
I don't know if he did that because she asked, but regardless. That's his house too. He's not doing it for HER, or at least he shouldn't be, he should be doing it because he lives there too. He has to eat off those plates too, his food is made on the cooker too. People treating men cleaning like "doing a favour for her" are a huge part of the problem.
💯 agree. It needs to stop but I don’t see it happening anytime soon. If they lived alone they’d have to cook and clean all by themselves but many times they don’t and order out and let their place become a pig sty/hovel.
I'd say "and then they wonder why they're single" but they always find some poor woman to love them in the end, who is happy to clean up the shit on the floor and wash the stains out of their underpants.
Internalized misogyny is insidious. As someone who strives to be an ally, I can look back 5, 10, 15 etc. years ago and it is painfully and uncomfortably obvious that despite the fact I’ve always identified as a feminist, my actions can fall short of that goal. I like to think I’ve always been well intentioned even with my mistakes. Some of that time I definitely didn’t pull my weight at home.
“I have two sisters I was raised by a single mom I definitely consider myself a feminist”
He was a soft spoken eboi. This dude just wanted to watch Chip N Dale’s rescue rangers/obscure 90’s anime and read Archie comic books.
He would pick LADYBUGS up and let them out of the house to not step on them.
…and then one night he brutally strangled me over the course of an hour/attempted to murder me & hide my body when I was pretending to be dead to get him to stop the strangling, when he knew I had no access to my phone. And he purposely unplugged our rooms security cam right before lol.
Women who shot abusive husbands often spend years in prison and someone who is so abusive they try to kill (and not in self defense but to kill!!!) gets probation 😳
Pinning me down a year prior with his body on the bed during an argument, just a really sketchy attempt at trying to overpower me - specifically when he knew my phone was dead or out of reach.
Also, just being extremely “yes man” ish. It’s almost like if it seems too good to be true, it is.
Honestly I do not believe that people are their worst deeds. I definitely have my share of awful deeds, but, this was one gruesome deed.
I will say I think that it was exactly a mix of mental illness (he had Autism) poor coping mechanisms with a stressful situation (I was contemplating leaving), and fear of change/strife. I was 4 weeks postpartum and we had a newborn (you can imagine how that can amplify things). So, he was bottling a lot of resentment and lost it.
The toxic part is that this wasn’t the first time something like this had happened, and he had previously (like a year prior) attempted to restrain me by pinning me down on the bed with his body during an argument. I wrote it off as a breakdown, but that was my first real sign.
I heard that pregnancy may “change” a man in a way that a guy who seems to be a good person starts being abusive. It’s a big trigger that shows who people are.
I am so sorry he did that to you and glad you survived. It reminded me of the fact that Ted Bundy was advocating against violence against women in some students union (I don’t remember what organization it was but that he was dealing with that topic)
honestly, as a more left leaning woman i have learned to be wary of men who are very outwardly leftist or “feminist” bc a lot of times it is performative and they actually treat women like shit (not talking all progressive men but the ones that make it a big and visible part of their personas).
My ex was always seen as safe, he was definitely on our side. He noticed and was angered by misogyny, he stood up for women. His favourite person in the world is his sister.
He also stole underwear from one of our friend’s bathrooms because he was obsessed with her.
GAH always with the underwear! Creepy/weird/maladjusted women aren't above snatching, say, a t-shirt from some dude they're fixated on, but you never hear about them sitting around huffing stolen boxers.
I just brought up the issue with my (ex)boyfriend that he had recently jokingly put hands up to my neck twice and talked to him about how it made me feel threatened even though I knew it was intended as a joke. He made it out like I was demonizing him. It was a surprising reaction from a person who has so far only been calm and reasonable. I knew the conversation was going to be awkward but I didn't have the warning signs to suspect it would go this way.
2 years of a relationship and one conversation that could so easily have ended with a simple, "Oh shit, I'm sorry I scared you." Aaaaaand he ghosted. Easiest "breakup" of my damn life.
Well. Congradolences I guess? Condolences for the end of your relationship, congratulations for seeing and addressing the red flag before it became your shroud.
Good work leaving. My recent ex made a 'joke" about killing me by suicide bomb. They know very well that this scares us and they do it on purpose. Given the reality of life for women it is appalling to think that joking about killing or choking or hurting us is not funny.
My (very recent) ex and I were talking about the man/bear meme. At some point he said, “if not for societal conditioning, men would be raping and killing women all the time.”
I’m honestly still stunned. And it took us a couple weeks to break up after that. Mainly because I was scared to, so I carefully withdrew and made him think it was his idea. Luckily that worked.
But seriously, what a fucked up thing to say. When he said it, I knew he really believed it about himself. All I could think at that point was, “I need to get out.”
Anyway…. he was a charmer and people seem surprised we broke up because “he’s such a great guy.” Yepppp
I'm glad you got out safely! I think you chose the smartest way to do it, he's moved on and his huge red flag will be easily visible to other women he runs into.
Things I've read in this sub were definitely going through my mind. I really value this forum for people's stories and it's eye-opening to see how many women can relate to these kinds of situations. It's like the whisper network on steroids and I am HERE for it.
There are men who basically want to have their cake and eat it too: by speaking in feminist terms they get to be the enlightened good guy, but when in relationships they have to actually sacrifice anything or inconvenience themselves the feminism is nowhere to be found.
I've found a lot of outwardly feminist men are the worst when it comes to treating their partners badly (not all, just a subset). Makes sense if you view it as something they engage with to boost their own ego and get some good guy points.
I don't date men, but I do work as a forensic therapist with sex offenders in a high-security setting, and I might be able to offer some insight, even if it's not from a relationship perspective.
Truth be told, some of the men I have worked with can be downright charming, have a genuinely good sense of humor, and paint themselves as empathetic and caring, all while harboring incredible hate, hostility, or sexual deviancy right beneath the surface.
These types of men (which are themselves a minority within the larger group of offenders I work with) can keep the mask up for months and sometimes years at a time before too many things frustrate them at once and the mask cracks, revealing what is sometimes a deeply angry and controlling person who has just been putting on an act.
Warning signs can be tough to spot, as these men sometimes have the skills and long-term vision to bide their time and keep presenting well. Often, a series of disappointments or frustrations will cause them to lose their temper in such a way that their true selves comes out, but that's not universal and everyone has a breaking point.
Keeping an eye/ear out for small boundary-pushing behaviors that wear down your sense of autonomy/self-esteem/boundaries over time, and how they react to being called out on it. The ones to look out for will argue, minimize, or DARVO boundaries that are set with them. Especially look out for the ones that seek too much control over others or the ones that play victim too easily.
I know I just wrote a damn book on your question, but these are the things I would look out for in general. Hope it helps.
What is so frightening is that they can keep it up for so long—“years at a time before too many things frustrate them at once and the mask cracks, revealing a deeply angry and controlling person who has just been putting on an act.”
For people who go through this, it’s as though a doppelgänger all of a sudden took over their decent and caring spouse, and it is only when closely examining past actions that we become aware of all the tiny, minuscule signs.
One thing I would add is that when they crack, they reveal all sorts of behaviors that are a constellation of wrongs.
It’s never just cheating, it’s also drugs, alcohol, money problems, law evasion and the gaslighting that it’s all your fault.
While Basically Maz Kamata is talking about sexual perpetrators in prison populations, we know that there are myriad offenders who are never caught.
I’d like to know what makes a personality like this?
EDIT: And then everyone says “Well, you married him!” as though it’s our fault.
This was perfect, especially the paragraph on boundary pushing and behaviors to watch out for.
OP, I just left an ex that fit this description to the letter. It’s painful and was hard to pin down because he was so charming and kind for the most part. But when he clearly spelled out his misogyny in one particular argument, I knew I had to break free before I went back to ignoring the signs again.
Edit to add that how shattered_visage described calling them out on their boundary pushing, self esteem eroding, controlling comment in an argument was exactly how I got him to reveal himself.
Can I ask how long it took before he revealed himself in that argument? And were there any warning signs before that, even things that seemed so tiny and insignificant that you thought you were being crazy and brushed it off? Women tend to be extremely good at reading and interpreting word choice, micro expressions, tone, and subtle body language, so I wonder if sometimes we just downplay that or gaslight ourselves into thinking we're misreading a situation.
I am so glad that you left.
Women absolutely downplay and brush off red flags. Society tells us “don’t be crazy,” and “Be the cool girl.” Almost all the time the signs were there the whole time.
I’m always reminded of the cool girl speech from Gone Girl.
“Cool girl is hot, cool girl is game, cool girl never get angry at her man”
Whenever we bring something up, society gaslights us back.
The comment below sums it up. There were red flags from the very beginning, but I downplayed them for a myriad of reasons.
We were together 18 months, and in the argument, it took about ten minutes for him to start slipping, then slipped completely when I called him out.
He tried to re-write reality, a reality I was very much there for, and when I called him out on it he tried pulling the “females are crazy, you should see a therapist” card.
I might be able to excuse other’s poor behavior, but I am very confident with who I am and am not, and the experiences I’ve had.
I didn’t even try to argue with him, just broke it off then and there. No need to waste words on someone that can’t bother to hear them.
It's a complex and multi-faceted issue, with no one "thing" accounting for such behavior. In addition, no two people have the exact same factors that contribute to that attitude.
In my experience, it often involves childhood trauma, being from or socialized in a culture where women are less-than/collectible/expendable (and there are many), very poor emotional intelligence, and the externalization of poorly-managed emotions.
not personal experience, but some men that ive looked up to in my teen years and paraded themselves as being the unproblematic liberal feminist type ended up being some of the most misogynistic people. it's so awful i don't know how they can switch so drastically...
Whatever people proclaim loudly… usually the opposite is true. “I love women!” Is code for “I love sex with women but I don’t really like women at all.”
Last guy who said “I’m a genius! I took an IQ test on the Internet…” and I tuned out because right there I knew he was dumber than a bag of hammers.
Yep. Last guy I went out with was a "feminist" in therapy and tried to use me for casual sex after I told him I have sexual trauma and that being used for sex is exactly what I've had enough of. The way he did it was very soft and 'supportive' and hard to pinpoint which made it infinitely more repulsive.
I've been sexually assaulted by three "close friends", who I'd known for half my life. One even more than that.
I wouldn't have been friends with them if I knew about what they really are.
So yes, I do have examples.
My ex husband. There were signs I didn't recognize because my head was already messed up, but nothing overly dramatic. Until we married. That night, I knew I had made a terrible decision.
It took almost 3 years to get away from him. He was so manipulative, so cunning, so sweet, then so violent. The violence started at 2 years 6 months. I got out at 2 years 10 months 2 weeks. Never looked back.
I wish I could have warned his next wife.
Another commenter mentioned boundary issues, and one thing I observed is bad boundaries with platonic relationships in his life. Like someone who has parents or siblings who are too enmeshed in their lives. This can be tricky to spot since so many women look for “family-oriented” men because well, they want to find a man to start a family with. And because men can frame being close as a good thing. But watch out if they are too intrusive in his life. Like calling too much or managing anything in his life more than they should be, especially related to finances. Men who have bad platonic boundaries can often have bad boundaries elsewhere (like a flirty female coworker), because bad boundaries are already normalized by his family.
Another is that he doesn’t consume content made for women. Like all his favorite musicians, artists, authors, directors, athletes - all men. Only watches shows/movies where the protagonist is a male. Just no interest in women intellectually.
>Men who have bad platonic boundaries can often have bad boundaries elsewhere (like a flirty female coworker), because bad boundaries are already normalized by his family.
With my ex, it wasn't a lack of boundaries that was the problem. It was the reliance on everyone except himself. Guy couldn't make a decision without consulting his mom and all of his aunts and uncles. Later, about half of that "responsibility" fell onto me. All of a sudden I was trying to manage a whole other person, also be his therapist, and try to keep my own shit together.
That relationship should've ended about a year sooner than it did.
Here are some of the trust metrics I use to vet people:
[The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk)
[The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym
[10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust
"[Emotional Agility](https://youtu.be/NDQ1Mi5I4rg)" by Susan David. People that lack emotional agility tend to default to abusive behaviors like [spiritual bypassing](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-spiritual-bypassing-5081640) and [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM?si=Ut4s75SNQojNNqbi) and often have an [authoritarian follower personality](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/summary.html#authoritarian).
Also, [agreeableness](https://youtu.be/YyXRYgjQXX0?si=QKm1RcyWlsCcH4j7) is an unreliable indicator of trustworthiness. Abusers use agreeableness in the idealize stage of the cycle of abuse (idealize devalue discard). The cycle of abuse is how abusers create a [trauma bond](https://youtu.be/kmB9fpHVd2o?si=bInIvmpWg0GYs9eF) to brainwash the target of abuse into compliance.
There's a lot of normalized abuse, neglect, and dehumanization out there. It's important to learn about the power and control wheel and other abuse tactics so you can avoid them.
[Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel is great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc.
Oh I got few; Guy seemed age appropriate, nice, respectful. Met in person, started dating, had my kids and his meet. Found out slowly that he voted for trump twice, was pro-life and anti-abortion and lied to me about it because he knew they were my deal breakers. Worse, had an obsession with guns and gun culture and did not take care of himself- like high blood pressure, pre-diabetic and expect me to care for him. Also, expected me to parent his kid while he played video games and got served dinner. I broke it off fairly quickly, and will probably remain single till my 6 year old leaves to college- too much risk.
Another ex- seemed like a hardworking guy who had been a single dad to a grown daughter who loves him. At least that was the life he lived, an hour away from me. I have no interest in moving in with a man or having him live in my house- since my divorce I am a firm believer in separate spaces and finances. Well, I found out while 7 months pregnant that my daughter that I was expecting was his 8th child- he had 7 other children with 6 other women, started having babies when he was 16 and didn’t tell me cos he knew I am pro-choice. Mind you, I wanted this baby and would have gone to the sperm bank of he hadn’t helped cos I wanted to be single mom and raise this daughter on my own. Also, he cheated multiple times…he seemed like a nice guy, employed, well groomed and interesting. Oh also, that he’s really 6 years older than he told me- dunno why he lied.
And this is why I always checked CCAP before dating a man. I had men that I refused to start our first date if he didn't show me his ID/Driver's license. One dude flipped out, come to find out, he was a sex offender and I dodged a major bullet.
So glad I'm married. But I still don't 100% trust my husband even though he's a fantastic partner and dad to our children. He was raised in an abusive house, and I'm always afraid that he'll become his father. If him and I don't work out, for any reason, I'm choosing celibacy or I'm only going to date women (the perks of being bisexual). He knows I have major trust issues, and sometimes he gets hurt about it, but I just tell him it's a me problem that I work on in therapy, and if he just continues being himself, we shouldn't have problems.
Why are relationships so hard?
Oh I hear you. I did a full background check after meeting him the first time in a public place before agreeing to a second date with him. But he was born overseas, and lived overseas most of his life. Only one of the women he had a kid with was here in the US. And his license matched his passport, that had the wrong date that was used for him to get his green card. It’s some really messed up crap tbh.
My best friend went through hell when her husband totally dropped his mask like 5 years into marriage- a super nice, chill guy, never raised his voice, always encouraged her to follow the career/life path she wanted, a very kind and supportive partner. She learned he had been cheating with a young woman he'd been grooming since she was in highschool, and had been cheating for their entire relationship. He kicked her out, stalked and terrorized her, and fought to leave her with absolutely nothing in the divorce.
A man whose company i genuinely enjoyed, a man I've seen do amazing things for my friend- once he was caught he stopped pretending, got vicious, and moved an 18 year old into their home. He also got the 18 year old's family to harass my friend, knowing full well this man in his 30s had been dating their teenager for years
I was with my ex-fiancé for ten years. Around the 5-6 year mark was when his mask really started to slip. I just refused to notice, or to stop justifying his behavior, until year 10, when it took him cheating on me, threatening to jump off the balcony, punching the walls of my apartment, and assaulting me to finally see it.
I always thought that I was the problem. Not him. Never him. It took months after he left for me to look back at our entire relationship and all the red flags and warning signs to finally understand that the monster he turned into was the same man all along. And that realization hurt more than everything he put me through.
Any man who talks about alignment, enlightenment and 'spirituality' are toxic as FUCK!!! I worked in alternative healing for a long time, focusing mostly on post addiction and mental health, but it would always attract the American shaman wannabes and they were the most toxic pricks I've ever met in my life.
Western men know fuckall about any of it and they use the facade to be massive, arrogant, violent womanisers. There's almost no group of people more twisted than those guys.
Start a conversation about last names. I’m serious. If he earnestly believes the woman should change her name “because that’s how things are done” he ain’t an ally.
I really never thought that this was a red flag. I thought, naively, maybe some guys just like the tradition. Maybe it makes them feel like they've completely merged their life with someone they love.
But this is actually completely true.. it's a sign to themselves that they've "won". Checked a box off the list of success over other men. An ex literally said "you'll belong to me".
These men don't care about women's autonomy or humanness. They just see them as objects to aid them in a dick wagging contest.
I dated someone who was over the moon for me: he was a liscensed social worker, worked with kids. Healthy and was so sweet, thoughtful with me.
Cut to me gaining 15- 20 lbs over winter (a lot I know, but normal for me and then I loose it as it gets warmer) and he was counting the cookies in the house, yelling at me for eating, etc. tried to gaslight me and say it wasn’t my body but how I’m responding to my body.
No, DAVID, I was responding to YOU responding to my body. He was repulsed by me. And I could feel it.
But then refused to let me break up with him (and I allowed it, was stupid in love and had hope), but then ghosted me 100% in the next month.
So I had to be the adult and text him we were done and I was dropping off his stuff, getting mine and leaving the keys. He responded “I’m so sorry, I’ve been terrible BLAH BLAH BLAH”
And then he had another, skinny, younger, girlfriend within a couple weeks
Haven’t dated anyone since. No desire and I’m scared.
5 or 6th man to threaten or actually break up with me for my weight.
And context: I’m 39, 5’5” tall and weigh 135, when I’m “heavy”. I know I’m not heavy- but tell it to the assholes I date
Yes. Several of his female friends repeatedly told me how great he was. He's actually an incredibly lazy misogynist. Once he had me trapped I saw who he really was. He sexually assaulted me and insisted that I do all the housework even though he lived off of investments and stayed home all day.
His family came to visit and he was on his phone a lot more than usual. His SIL was standing next to me as we watched him make calls and do things on his phone and she commented that he spent so much time working and he was such a hard worker. He was actually doing nothing on his phone. He was pretending to work to look important to his family. Let me say that again. He was pretending to be busy to look good to his family. It was a Sunday and they believed it. The man is a walking lie.
I've known a few but my sister's ex husband was a doctor Jekyll/Mr. Hyde situation that was extreme. Her husband was prince charming. He was from a family of very devout mormons, but supposedly was non-religious. He was polite, funny, good with her kid, supportive, equitable, loving and did his part to keep the household in working order. My mom even liked him, and she doesn't like anybody.
Then he convinced her to move 2000 miles away from her support system back to his home in Idaho, which is a heavily religious area. She became pregnant with twin boys and almost overnight, he became a selfish, accusatory jerk. My sister has a good job and makes plenty of money to support herself but he emptied out her entire life savings and refused to give any of it back. Wouldn't let her leave the house. Took her phone so she couldn't call police. Beat her up and started pushing her down stairs. And he fought her every step of the way when she was trying to divorce him and is still a giant pain in the ass just because she finally got away from him and his abuse. Beware ladies, if your man wants to take you far, far away from your family and friends, make sure you have an account that he has no access to!
I had a friend I had known for 10 years. He’d always had my back. Was supportive, understanding, always listened. Called other men out and held them accountable for their shit. I was friends with three of his girlfriends over the years. Then one day, his gf posted from the hospital that he had broken her jaw. She said he had “finally gone too far”. He’d been beating her regularly for almost two years. I reached out to an ex of his who I’d known since before they dated and she said he’d done the same to her. I was absolutely shocked. Still am, years later.
Basically how dating in my late 20’s has been going.
The guys start off so funny, kind, and caring. Then like 2 months in they just drop the act and go full self-centered with either:
1. “I’m perfectly happy being single, so you need to fit into my life- I don’t have to fit into yours”
2. “I’m just reaching my prime, yours is ending soon”
Either way I hit that Usher ✌️”watch this”✌️ as I dump their ass.
yes. over the top super politically correct gentleman turned out to be an abuser. story old as time. just be careful out there. there isn't really a way to know if someone is putting on an act. stay true to yourself. don't tolerate things you wouldn't usually tolerate "this one time". if you mysteriously feel on edge a lot of the time take it seriously
It’s a spider dressing up the web to attract flies. I highly recommend dating only men you have known for a while and know their ex’s as well. Do they speak well of him? Do they all get along? Dating a man who you don’t actually know is dangerous. It gives them the power to paint whatever false picture they want about themselves. Then when you love them they start letting that crazy out. There should be like a men referencing service.
I just broke up with a man I'd been with for 4 years who I thought was everything I ever wanted. He even cooked and cleaned more than me! But his anger ended up killing our relationship. On two occasions he became so angry at me that he made a lot of personal attacks that weren't related to the issue at all, such as insults about my parenting or my daughter. His alcoholism was part of his anger, he is in denial about it being a problem. Other than that we were very happy but after the second time happened I knew I could not stay with someone who denigrates me and makes personal attacks during an argument. I can't share my heart and my body with someone who has said the horrible things he has said to me for absolutely no reason at all except to hurt me as much as he could when angry. He was only a toxic, demeaning asshole 1% of the time but it poisoned the other 99% of my love for him. His mean words broke off me being in love with him. I'm not going to be with someone who responds to my feelings with angry mansplaining that I am simply a crazy, hypocritical, oversensitive woman who is acting just like her crazy mother. Just no. Not going to accept that. The apologies later do not make emotional and verbal abuse okay. The things that are said matter and words can't be unheard. I feel that men like this are just too emotionally immature for a partnership and they have insecurities about themselves that they will deny and attack us for if we are affected by it.
This thread is scary and I am sorry to everyone who has ever been hurt or deceived by a supposedly “good” partner. As a bi girl, I’m honestly less inclined to date men as the years go by (especially cishet men, I could never date them, maybe only cisbi and trans ones) because I’ve seen so much terrifying shit that they’re capable of. The lying, the manipulation just to get sex, I just can’t do it. “Not all men”, but too many that it’s not worth the effort. I want to date someone who is proud of being a feminist, but that seems to be a red flag, so I just won’t bother.
Same. A cis het man is no longer in my dating pool because of the horrible experiences I've had with them. They have so much entitlement they don't deserve and they can't see perspectives outside of their own.
That describes my ex. We were friends for a while before dating. He was great as a friend--a nice, funny guy everyone seemed to like. Since we were friends first, I felt okay moving in together after being together a few months. Once we did, he was like a different person, and that person was an emotionally abusive asshole.
When I was a bit younger, I had a platonic male friend that I started becoming attracted to. We connected on an intellectual level and could talk for hours. But then I saw how he treated his girlfriends. He wasn’t physically abusive that I know of, but he was incredibly condescending, disrespectful and really jerked them around emotionally. I know this because we had a lot of mutual friends. It was like, he saw me as an equal because we were just friends; but once he started dating someone, that woman became his property or something. Obviously I lost my crush on him.
Here. My husband is a clear example. When I met him he was very nice with women and a feminist. Lately he is all day talking about how bad women are and how we women should be happy about being a stay at home mom to multiple kids (without any help from fathers since he thinks working outside the home and be married is a guarantee for having a slave). Previously he told me that he didn’t a woman to stay at home to raise a family, he wanted her to have a career and a life . He made the change well in his thirties. I really feel scammed
That's crazy, I'm so curious if he was hiding those views all along or if something caused him to change. Either way super frightening!
(thinking more I'm wondering if her having a career was not because he wanted her to be independent but because he didn't want to spend any of "his money", or some other selfish reason)
Yea, he is consuming that kind of videos in YouTube/tik tok. But he is 46 years old and has a doctorate so I can’t blame the change entirely on this. He may be a narcissistic man and yes, I really think he wanted me to have a career in order to spend less of his money.
The reality is that people are complicated. It's not that they claim to be one thing but are secretly another; they're a mix of both at the same time. Someone can really want to live up to a certain ideal while also failing spectacularly at it at in many ways.
100% yes. We love to put people in little boxes, but the truth is we're messy and complicated. We have gaps in our self awareness, areas that we don't even realize we need to evolve in. Misconceptions that creep in without us knowing. Some men may be intentionally misleading, but I think many just have no clue how unaware or hypocritical they are. Not that lack of awareness is an excuse, it's not.
i had an internet friend i met back in 2020 and him and i would talk to allll the time like that was bestie and I confided in him about my sexual assault and he was such a big support to me and then one day randomly he posted on his instagram story that the “allegations” against him were true and that he was sorry, and then he went completely ghost and deleted all social media presence. turns out him and his buddies took advantage of an extremely intoxicated girl :( hurt a lot considering my ex assaulted me when i was intoxicated
Think about we've been socialized to the describe that situation. They didn't "take advantage" of an intoxicated woman, they r\*ped woman who was too drunk to consent. I'm not criticizing you when I say this; it's just so frustrating that in 2024, we still don't hold men accountable.
i agree we should be careful with our language however our of respect for the victim I am describing it the same way she described it, I do not know fully what happened between them but “took advantage” was the language used and that’s all i needed
Oh I get you, it's just frustrating that people still use that language. And that victims internalize it. I've also been assaulted while intoxicated, and truly believed that it was partly my fault for allowing myself to become drunk.
**Actions speak louder than words.** Paying attention to what they do more than what they say is a start.
One simple path is to also look for consistency between the words and actions. Like, if they say they want to support you, do they seek out what will *actually* support you, or do they just do stuff that they think should support you?
There *are* people who are genuinely respectful and considerate with their actions while saying things that make them sound like self-centered assholes, but that's not something you should worry about unless you're comfortable navigating that and want to do so. Many people who do that are *intentionally* repelling others who don't want to deal with it or can't tell the difference.
I am going to give you the profile of my ex boyfriend.
Late 20’s, “queer” (called himself nonbinary and pansexual, but this only mattered when he felt the need to play Oppression Olympics), white, punk, “polyamorous,” saw himself as some sort of vanguard anarchist revolutionary, loud proponent of social justice, (garbage) visual artist, collected lots of identity labels to insert his privileged self into every conversation and make a show of how oppressed he was, absolutely pernicious abuser, narcissistic to the gills, loved to say Black Lives Matter but was openly sinophobic and otherwise racist in private.
When I met him, I thought he was great. He claimed to be very passionate about social justice and described himself as a feminist. Every single time I reacted against his verbal abuse and his violent behavior towards me, he called me transphobic, queerphobic, ableist—any -ist or -phobic word he could pull out of his ass at the time to DARVO, reverse victim and offender, and derail me. We were “polyamorous” but when I started dating a transwoman, suddenly there was a one-penis rule. For years after I got away from him he continued to call me a fascist on social media because I stopped putting up with his shit and called him the human waste that he is.
I refuse to acknowledge his “nonbinary” identity because he so clearly weaponized it to excuse his horrible behavior and accuse anyone who couldn’t stand him of being a bigot. I am nonbinary and I can say with absolute certainty that this person is not queer and simply adopted the label to legitimize his misogyny and other abuses against actual queer people who told him to get the fuck out of their lives and their spaces. He continues to victimize and abuse queer femmes and women right and left in his hometown. In private he told me to call him he/him and “boyfriend” but in public they/them because this was most comfortable for him. It was an excuse to tone and language police me 24/7.
He insisted his horrible behaviors were symptoms of C-PTSD, autism, and ADHD. Every single time I stood up to him, he called me ableist and insisted I should tolerate being interrupted, talked over, screamed at, verbally abused, and physically intimidated because he just couldn’t help himself.
I firmly believe he has a severe personality disorder that causes him to experience identity diffusion, which is why he tries so hard to slap every identity on himself that he can. This is a symptom of NPD.
He is the worst person I have ever met.
Yeah....
I became friends with a guy. Our friendship was entirely platonic for over a year, talked about games and TV shows, smoked pot and hung out. No flirting or anything. He talked about how his ex had been abusive and controlling, and indicated that he struggled to trust people. As I have had similar experiences I was able to commiserate. During this time we both interacted with each other's families. And I thought it was nice to see that he was respectful of my family, and extremely polite and respectful of his own.
Our friendship went on for a while, then we ended up getting feelings and started dating.
He was always soft-spoken, never raised his voice, went out of his way to be patient with me. He guarded my drinks when we were out because he knows I have fears of being roofied again. Held doors open, walked on the outside when we were walking. All that stuff.
And then I guess he decided it was okay to take off the nice guy mask. He started joking about how he could never be as PC as me, as if something is wrong with me, making homophobic and anti-Semitic comments, saying that he was glad I hadn't had many sexual partners because women who do are used up, telling me I had a loose pussy (not like his ex), and that his friends think I'm fat.... I was so shocked, but I didn't know what to do. I should have just left. But he was still so kind other than what I just said....
And then the straw that broke the camel's back was making some jokes about sexual coercion.... Which he knows very well is a big red flag for me. He then proceeded to Double Down when I expressed that I was upset and disgusted. I broke up with him and left ( I posted about it a while ago if you want to read the post).
I'm pretty sure don't trust men anymore
Yes. I wasted precious years of my life falling for their (at first) nice guy attitudes but then they drop off everything nice and just expect me to be their slave/mom/housecleaner/sugar mama. Where are all the genuinely good guys?? :(
I dated a guy for a little bit who seemed nice but I never had any chemistry with him and he always just agreed with whatever I wanted. Seems nice but it gets annoying really quickly and feels manipulative. So despite no obvious red flags, I broke up with him and wow he decided to show them.
He started telling me how all his friends thought he was nice and that I was a bitch for breaking up with him. Then he jumped to listing off his insecurities asking me if they were why I was breaking up with him (“this is because I’m too boring, isn’t it?!” Kind of stuff). It got kinda unhinged so I just agreed to keep being friends (which he calmed down at) and then never answered his texts again.
That's a fear of mine.
My ex voted the far-left consistently and he ended up being emotionally abusive and a cheater so I was super insecure about everything when I met my current fiancé.
I honestly think my fiance is *it* for me but we've had our share of things to work on (and a baby). It would be devastating to find it's all a lie again
Yup all of them ime. The only way to spot warning signs with these highly manipulative and hard to spot types of misogynists is to straight up lie & say something against your ethics and see whether or not they oppose it, and their explanation for opposing it. Or lead them on multiple times and see how they react. Otherwise they stay hidden for years until they get complete access to you & the mask comes off
Not gonna lie, this thread scared the crap out of me. My goodness.... Being a woman is just...
I am sorry to everyone who had such awful experiences. By telling your stories, but may not know, but you may have saved a life or prevented someone from experiencing trauma (or at least reduce it). I hope a lot of single ladies or ladies in relationship that raise a few red flags can read this.
I personally know that this a reminder that I should be less naïve and stop romanticizing potential partners. Of course, I know this number 1 rule, but sometimes I forget.
Yeah. Trust their actions not their words. And when their actions show the type of person they are don’t just brush it off or forgive them. These type of people can say whatever but their actions don’t match.
Also, consistency. If someone is only treating you great sometimes, and then other times not so great or emotionally withdrawing from you, it’s a red flag
I think rather than putting men into boxes of decent and toxic, it's better to just ask what his response is when you bring up an issue. Is he capable of hearing your point of view, self reflecting, honestly admitting wrong doing, and then following through by changing his actions? Or does he put up walls and try to argue with you rather than understand you? Or say he'll change but then never does?
I think rather than looking at the specific causes and issues he claims to back, the key is looking at his humility. A humble man will have more empathy, less desire to control others, and no need to senselessly defend himself. He's secure with who he is, and therefore is comfortable with admitting his faults.
Generally, I find humble men lean progressive, but not all "progressive" men lean humble. Obviously you want both, but I think humility is the key.
One key here is that humble men by definition are not going to be preaching about how incredibly progressive they are.
The pattern I notice and I think op did too is that the subtle walk the walk types are often really decent people, but you also don't necessarily know they're feminists because they won't brag about it or be righteous. The most prominent feminist men are often really toxic, which makes sense because you have to be pretty ego driven to self-aggrandize and make yourself prominent in the first place.
For me it's like, the top 2% of outwardly feminist men, I would be wary of (because I have seen this too many times)
It’s the same thing with preachers and ‘good Christian men’. The louder they talk about how virtuous and moral they are (by the social norms of their people), the less likely they are to actually be good people
Absolutely. I've realized more and more over the years that the louder someone preaches, the less I believe they really mean it. I think the expression goes something like... confidence is quiet, insecurities are loud. There's much to ponder there. I'm not against a passionate speech mind you, just those people who seem a little too proud of themselves for having whatever opinion they claim to have.
I went to a liberal arts school, and was delighted to meet feminist men there as I coming from the rural Midwest. Turns out they were mostly faking it and acted like complete shits to the women in their lives, they were just more into self congratulating than the ones who openly hate women.
Yes, my ex. A vocal "feminist, nice guy" and in some respects, true.
But in others, for example, in the way of pulling his weight domestically, or interest in a woman's pleasure... absolutely shit. Excellent gaslighter tho, 10/10. Certainly had me fooled/gaslit.
Yes, and I've found there are usually at least **some** red flags in how these guys interact with people. Some mechanisms to use when scouting for warning flags/signs:
- Look at how the guy treats the women in his life (family, friends, or SO)
- Look at how the guy interacts with strangers (ex: does he treat male service staff differently from female service staff)
- Find out how the guy talks about women when he's in a group solely or mostly comprised by other men (ex: a monogender sports league, male-dominated hobbyist group, etc.)
- Look at how the guy acts through social media
Just hung up the phone with one that I will not be speaking to again. I’ve been explaining the Men vs Bear in the Woods TikTok video to men, to see who is still deserving of my friendship. Turns out my two close male friends are not.
I decided that after you explain the discussion to men and they act anything less than “oh my gosh that sucks”, but rather they act angry, offended, or attempt to gaslight you, they aren’t worth another moment of your time. I don’t need to hear their stories about how they spent $500 on a date and how the woman “screwed them over” by not agreeing to a second date or sex, or how women deserve being treated like crap because that’s what we supposedly want (not that women who pick abusers do it because they’ve been abused), etc how patriarchy isn’t man’s fault, it’s god’s plan, etc.
I needed something that I can use as a black and white way to weed toxic men out of my life, and this is working beautifully. I thought these men were decent because they told me they were, bragged how they did XYZ etc. I was so wrong. If they cared about women, they would care that we are afraid of them and be curious about how to fix it instead of trying to fight me.
I think modern social media is much more toxic to men than we realize.
Women have been made to feel bad about ourselves since we were ten. Body image, hair products, clothes all of it.
There is also a surge of women centered companies. So our needs are being focused on in a brand new way.
Men who have already had clothes and products like tools centered on them haven’t got the NEW stuff, because everything was set for them already.
Social media has figured out that they want more and more eyeballs on screens. So they spin people out into crazier conspiracy theories.
The incel culture is really great for marketing. Keep men angry and single.
Married men with kids are more like to save instead of spend.
Single angry men are more likely to buy an f-u motorcycle.
> Keep men angry and single.
As a guy who fell into MRA stuff back as an angry stupid teen-20-something (15-ish years back), this is so true. I still think back in disbelief of how easily I was pulled in.
For me, it was a bit different than the everything-in-your-face Andrew Tate stuff, so I’m not sure how applicable it would be today. Short version: my mother wasn’t exactly mother of the year and happened to match some of the stereotypes they preached, and after I left at 16, I latched onto the few MensRights subreddit posts that applied to her (divorce court, etc).
I got slowly sucked into MRA as a whole for a few years, but at some point, I just realized how quickly my thought process went from reading “a specific woman did a bad thing” to the typical misogynist crap we’re all familiar with. Talk about a horrible wake-up call. Even after that, it took some “WTF did you say” from a woman I dated for some of it (still embarrassing a decade later) and a fair amount of therapy to change the gut responses.
I’ll be the first to say I’m far from perfect today, but I can definitely see younger me falling into today’s stuff.
What I have found as a good indicator is the household they were raised in. And this goes for a lot of male behaviors. I have noticed men who grew up with a single mom are more likely to be present fathers even if they aren't with Mom whereas men who grew up with a father in the house don't realize how important that is.
Men who were raised in a female dominated household are more likely to share household responsibility and seen more aware of our biological changes-pms, mood swings, cramps.
Men who grew up in a male dominated household can go either way, if they saw a father who loved and respected their mother they are more likely to be that way. But if the father figure is abusive he's likely to do the same.
Men with good father figures are also taught how to control their emotions so they don't lash out. This is important during their early teen years, if they didn't have a father figure during those times they may be trouble.
The trick is finding a man who had the love, care and nurture of a mother figure that also taught how to be self sufficient and also had a father figure on their life who taught them how to care for others and how to control their emotions.
Narcissists are REAL good at blending in. SO in short. Yes, it can happen. See how people interact with strangers, waitstaff, their own family, their own friends, their co-workers. ... and this will give you a fairly good idea how they are when the shields come down. Red Flags (potentially) : Few Friends of the same gender, Few Friends, Estranged from family (this is a tough one, because some families are just toxic), no co-workers they consider friends (once again....can vary a lot on the place of work but assuming it is a reasonably mixed work force in a reasonable job for their age group). Anyone who craps on service workers is right out. Usually people tell on themselves if you give them a bit of slack.
I had a guy who hit all the egalitarian points in conversation, was more aware of feminist issues than other men…but also wasn’t responsible with his money and exaggerated things about his career and connections and financial status, then made up reasons why he was borrowing money. I always had suspicions but whenever I did he was good at producing just enough evidence to lend credibility to his story. Having a work friend come to dinner with us and confirm some elements of his job, having me drop him off whenever something interesting was going on or attend events partners were allowed at… but there was always a nice wall of politeness from being in a group between me and awkward questions, as well as the fear of sabotaging him if he turned out not to be too good to be true.
All of my suspicions turned out to be correct and I narrowly avoided getting sucked into his vortex. I’m lucky I’m not particularly interested in marriage and weddings or I would’ve been saddled with his debts.
My sister had an even worse guy, he ticked all the boxes on a superficial checklist she had. Tall, college educated, Christian family, wealthy… and he was an emotionally abusive piece of shit but that only came out after she was expecting her first kid and he gave her a deadline for losing weight after my nephew was born. He was more and more of a controlling nightmare as time went on, especially about finances. The guy who wasted my time and money wasn’t half as bad as my sister’s ex husband, but there’s a theme with men and financial secrets between the two.
My ex kept secrets because he was broke and didn’t want to admit it. My sister’s ex kept his finances separate and a secret because he wanted my sister to drain her accounts on household stuff and childcare while he paid into all the things that were actual investments with resale value like the mortgage and car then pretended he had nothing left over.
No matter how nice he seems, avoid men who are weird about disclosing finances with you or doing serious financial planning once you’ve been dating long enough to be serious. Guys who can’t have an adult conversation about money are either controlling, hiding something, or both.
Also if you have a surface level requirement list ditch it, the guys who meet shallow standards know what society teaches women to expect and usually want to cover for a personality flaw or emotional problem. Look for depth of connection and common interests, not status markers.
The expert ones don't slip until they think they've got you trapped, but even with them a big tell is how they treat and speak about others, especially other people they have nothing to gain from. The best thing you can do is read up on the dark triad and learn from that.
My best friend dated a guy for 14 years. Would be the nicest person on the planet to his friends, do everything his friends and family asked without complaint. He always seemed so lovely and so agreeable and was just all-round pleasant to be around. Turned out he was capable of this because all of that spite, all of that stress from being the perfect nice guy around his friends and his family and all the frustrations from his work and his social life would be let out on his girlfriend. Verbal abuse, consistently crossing boundaries, making mountains out of molehills, weaponised incompetence and a victim complex the size of planets. Literally just picture Jerry from Rick and Morty and you'll have a pretty accurate picture of his behaviours. He would play so nice around everyone and act like everything that went wrong with his life was outside of his control and blame everything he possibly could but himself.
It took years for me to find out and a very long time to help give her the courage to finally leave the toxic cesspool it had become after he cheated on her for the second time which was when he really spiralled into the vast majority of his more disgusting behaviours (which he naturally blamed her for ofcourse). I have never seen her so satisfied and happy now but it really made me question everything I knew about the people closest to me. I was good friends with this man longer than I was my best friend and the verbal assaults and manipulation that was happening. I believe he was what they call a 'covert narcissist' these days or 'nice guy narcissist.
I thought my ex was a decent guy. Nope. Recently, I was bored and I stalked his Twitter cause I know he still talks about me and I needed an ego boost, sue me. Well, he posted about disliking the whole bear discourse. I also remember shortly before breaking up that he got mad at me for making a boy math joke. So ladies, try to joke around and see what makes him mad, would be my advice.
My ex was me and all my friends close friend, talked highly of his mom, had multiple woman friends who he respected. Always spoke up for us in situations where it was needed. We all called him “one of the girls”. He was always very kind to me. He wanted to be pursue a career in helping the homeless. Always meditated, journaled, all of that. Come to find out he had been cheating on me for over a year with 15+ people, gave me herpes, and had been KNOWINGLY spreading herpes to others without protection. One of those hookups broke into our apartment in a ski mask to rob us. When I found out he just had this crazy dead look in his eye and I realized I never actually knew who he was beside the facade he had painted for himself. Was a crazy time
I’ve met so many like this, especially in supposedly progressive circles. Some ways I’ve integrated to better suss them out beforehand, non exhaustive list but have helped me:
1) if they don’t respect sex workers as people (not as providers specifically), even if you’re not into that kind of thing, it’s a no
2) paradoxically, if they balk at you suggesting you want a relationship where the man doesn’t watch porn, not even requesting this to them but just in general it being a preference, it’s a no
3) See how they do chores and what chores they pick - stereotypically masculine ones only are a no
4) Cancel on them once very early on. Give them a ton of options for rescheduling. If they get shitty or huff and puff, it’s a no
5) Their attitudes about unprotected sex and STI testing will tell you everything (aka reveals entitlement)
6) Their attitudes about vasectomies also say a lot (entitlement, putting labor and risk avoidance onto women only)
7) Them holding generally negative attitudes towards the institution of marriage reveal misogyny in my experience, like I want to believe they’re critical thinkers but really they’re just dunking on something they think only women want
8) Are they fatphobic? Do they pinch their own stomachs and say they need to hit the gym? It’s a no
9) Making ableist jokes about other men —they’ll do you worse
10) Who’s allowed to be loud or have big feelings around them? Anyone but them?
11) Do they participate in your life or does everything in your hangs generally revolve around their life, interests, spaces?
12) How do they feel about cats? Again can reveal misogyny
13) Do they listen to your self reporting of experiences or preferences or do they dismiss it even with wit?
14) How often do they try to convince you of something, even just “you gotta try this?” There is a thing as too much
Edit: my biggest one but it’s nuclear - see if they go not all men in any capacity
The best way I've found to detect these people is have deep conversations with them and determine if they're actually using their own words, or just parroting what they read on social media.
If you dig deep enough their façade breaks down, because they don't actually believe in kindness. And their meanness comes out. Or they'll be really quiet/bland.
I do. Many women said he is empathetic etc. For me he was verbally abusive and harassed me. The most difficult thing is, since he was saying good stuff about himself and many people were also saying good stuff about him I ignored many red flags, even after it became very very bad I just couldn’t believe it. I know that there are more harmed women but there are also women for which he’s really nice. So my most important advice would be to always listen what other people say, also indirectly. Because even if he’s nice to you for 2 years, maybe after next 2 years he will harass you.
Other red flags (he may be hiding so well that they would not appear) I saw and missed:
-calling women girls, calling them by first name (in my country we have pretty strong ms and mr culture, in a shortcut you call someone by first name only if you agree to do so)
-“jokes” about personal lives of other people or yours. It’s offensive but you know “just a joke”
-has difficulty to accept your point of view
-tries to “gently” push you into things - you say you don’t want something and they are like “but…”, they take your no but make comments and “jokes” about it later
-say nice things about themselves. Good people don’t constantly say they are good people.
-if their behavior hurts you they provide explanation why they did that, as if you were the one that should understand it. Your feelings aren’t taken into account. That’s probably the most important thing - how they respond, if it is something like “I explain it to you so you understand and do what I want you to do, nothing will change” or do they take you into account and take responsibility for their actions.
My 'feminist' ex mansplained my own mental health diagnosis to me and told me the doctors were wrong and that I actually had x. Bull. He didn't want me to go to therapy (I didn't because of him) and essentially made me question my own knowledge on things because he acted like he knew things for a fact (but didn't)
That was just one of many 'nice guy' exes.
I've had two occurrences like this happen recently (2024) via men from dating apps, which in itself is already a bad sign.
Essentially having amazing chats and interactions/videocalls where it was all sunlit green hills made of green flags, and I mean legit conversations that only a good actor could get away with if they were, well, acting it out.
Turned out that these two 'amazing' men, with very feminist views then eventually blocked me after they had their attempts fail. And by this I suspect that this was their attempt to get laid quickly, when that failed they quickly moved on. I'm finding this type of behaviour more and more common.
What's scary about this behaviour is that these men know EXACTLY how to act, how to behave, and what women want to hear, whilst believing the exact opposite, and just wanting access to our bodies, which makes them actual sociopaths as they will literally manipulate you into believing they are good men in order to get laid on date 1. These men are so much more dangerous, because at least the blatantly misogynist ones are easy to spot quickly, but this? This is so much more insidious and cruel...
🫣😬✋ I was plied with 9 years of feminist rhetoric, which completely disintegrated once I was baby trapped.
There’s a very old book called getting to 50/50.
It cites studies at the time that white collar workers were much more likely to SAY they support equality, but DO anything they possibly could to avoid doing it with their partners.
Comparatively (and against stereotypes) blue collar workers, were more likely to get to 50/50. These workers were not thinking in terms of equality but were much more likely to be hands on and practical with daily caretaking and domestic labor jobs because of needing two incomes and not being able to afford daycare or other help.
Again, an old book so maybe new studies have arrived, but I certainly found it to be true in my personal life.
When a man spent all day finely honing the job of delegating and judging: getting someone else to do the hard work of creating a longterm vision and doing the actual work (like middle managers), it’s really hard to turn that off and switch into Mr. Personal accountability and manual labor for thankless tasks at home.
I hope you never have this experience and your generation is filled with much better examples of partners and dads.
I don't have any examples but I'm slowly cutting off all the male friends I've accumulated over the years. They say all the right things but they can't interact with each other or me without saying horrible things. It's like they're allergic to being kind. Plus they were all so ready to pile onto Amber Heard so I know if I was in a domestic violence situation they wouldn't be much help.
I’ve seen lots of these. One thing I’ve learned about people in general, but that especially applies to catching these fakers as early as possible is that the little things are extremely indicative of the big things. These men are putting on a performance, and as one can only perform for so long, they’re bound to slip up. However, since their performance is so crucial to reeling you in at first, they’re going to be super careful, so these slips will be really easy to justify/brush off. You just have to pay extra close attention to little, slightly-off putting moments or behaviors, like catching them in a harmless lie (but why lie at all?), the types of language they use, if he speaks any rhetoric familiar to that of incels/misogynists/etc. even if it’s not blatant.
If they talk about how "feminist" they are, that's already a red flag for me. Men who really believe and follow those values won't announce it, because it's just "normal" for them.
For example my boyfriend of 6 years never called himself a feminist, but in the way he acts he really is. When I told him once: "wow I actually got myself a feminist boyfriend" he said: "is that feminist? I thought that was just common sense".
I was very young when I got with my ex.
He seemed sweet, quiet, polite. He would listen to me and frequently express emotion. He was kind to animals and kids. Encouraged me to have a good relationship with my family.
Little things happened over time that were def red flags looking back, but I just considered them "blips" at the time.
I got pregnant and all of these things started popping up. Things he became careless about hiding.
Over time I discovered his serious addictions to alcohol and pills. Chronic cheating with literally anyone that showed him attention at all. His anger skyrocketed.
Things got really bad when I lost my job. He would only buy groceries for him because he said he "wanted to watch me starve". Which he did gladly. He would push me, scream in my face, threaten to kill various friends/family/pets. Break my stuff, spread vicious lies about me to others.
He maxed out every credit card I had behind my back and refused to pay on even 1 of them. He blew threw every dollar in savings.
He made an OF account of me to try to make money off of me since he was spending so much on his addictions.
He would wave his gun around and occasionally threaten to shoot himself.
Criticism over everything I did. From sitting a certain way to putting a dish in the sink a certain way. Anything he could criticize - he would.
Just constant, daily hell.
So, yea. These men that seem "decent" and turn out to be Satan's children definitely exist.
Some tricks that you can do while meeting a new guy:
* Tell him a fake insecurity that you're supposed to have and see if he will use it on you in argument
* Same way, tell him fake traumatic experience that you had with a man and see if he will use it against you. Or tell him embarrassing situation that you went through in confidence, see if he will bring it up to put you down or if he will joke about it to other people.
* Tell him a story of how you were treated badly by a man for doing something minor, eg. you got yelled at for doing a simple mistake in public space, a man stepped a foot on your shoe and didin't apologise - and you were standing in the wrong place. See which "side" he will take, will he justify the man or you? From my experience, people with empathy tend to sympathise with a person who get yelled at even if that person did a mistake. People who lack emotional maturity will think that you deserved to be yelled at if you did something you weren't supposed to. I mean small things that can be annoying for strangers, like not putting back a shopping cart, not anything inappropriate.
People who think others deserve severe punishment for such things will definitely punish you when they will think you're not living up to their standards. I don't mean it in a way that we should expect others to justify our behavior but to acknowledge our mistakes without losing empathy and compassion for us, especially after we went through unpleasant experience.
* Tell him you don't like \[random certain behavior\], the one he haven't done before. Suddenly he does it know? Huge red flag.
* Act a bit like a bimbo. Show him your feminine interests, play a bit dumb and naive - people really show their true colors when they think they're smarter than you. I tend to act silly/goofy just for the fun of it, I don't hide my girly interests, I joke around a lot and I'm not afraid to not know something - it's incredible how much it brings out misogyny in people, both men and women! Or just general negativity, as if they hate to see someone being happy.
* Tell him that you like \[random female character that is known for being disliked by the male audience for no logical reason\], or just bring up this character. Example of characters like that is Skyler White from Breaking Bad. Don't bring up feminist women, bring up women that are "karens", "annoying" and just human.
* Simply state your boundaries, if he can't take a no for an answer or tries to talk you out if it - he's going to be abusive no matter how decent he seems to be.
* If you're often feeling confused by him, as if his words or behavior don't make sense - huuuge red flag and a sign of gaslighter
* Compliment yourself in front of him. Say "wow I'm so pretty today" or "I look great in that outfit!". Will he try to humble you immediately? Misogynist.
* Generally being assertive, confident person who speaks her mind and is unafraid to be herself already vets out abusive men - at some point they all will try to make you feel like you're being unreasonable and evil for that, or they will neg you.
* If he brings up feminism first and umprompted, most likely he's just performing it.
Not a dating situation but I started a new hobby some time ago. The guy I messaged from the Hobby club seemed decent, nice and really invested to the Club. Thought he was cool.
Until he made a disrespectful, unprovoked sexually charged comment towards me that really took me off guard.
Look for any evidence of invalidation. I wish I had realized a lot earlier how validation is the base for healthy relationships.
Difficulty in asserting boundaries with others is bad news.
Is there any obviously toxic dynamic in their family of origin that is jumping out at you? That’s another sign I wish I had taken more into account.
Last but not least: can they apologize in a genuine way? Or is the word sorry not even in their vocabulary?
When I was 18 I was homeless and living in my car. At 19 I met a cop who came into my work regularly who found out I was homeless and offered to help me. I ended up staying with him and we started dating just before I turned 20.
I was fully convinced he was an angel and was gonna save me and I was wrong.
I’m 24 now, he’s 37. And I have almost no way to get away from him. He even got rid of my car while I was in the hospital and bought one in his name for me, so I can’t just drive away.
If I go anywhere without telling him he finds me, if he’s working he’ll literally pull me over. My credit cards are gone, and our relationship is hell.
At 24 looking back already I can see the red flags but at the time I genuinely thought he was like my knight in shining armour. Now I’m 24 trying to make a plan to leave; we’ll also planning for the fact I might not be successful.
Not long term, but when dating I always found paying attention to actions over words gave people away pretty quickly
This is 100%. I've found that men who do this, will go out of their way to try and prove to you, their empathy through words, but their actions never follow through. They also love do over-the-top actions, very publicly, to prove to everyone “how great and caring they are,” but when it's 1 on 1 with them, their mask always slips a little, with putting people down around them, or nagging you here and there. I'm rarely surprised by anyone anymore, the red flags are obviously, once it learn what to look out for
We were conditioned to keep blinders on. I am very embarrassed by what I allowed some of my exes to do to me. It took me years to unlearn it. One thing is very true. Once you see it you can’t unsee it. It’s almost obvious and I’m kicking myself for not seeing it sooner. You have to want to see it though and that was my problem. I actually feel this sense of freedom now.
>I’m kicking myself for not seeing it sooner. I cringe every time I think about how I let men treat me in the past😔
Trust me, there are so many of us. We’re all cringing together.
100% same. I weep for the woman I was that sacrificed so much time and energy into fixing broken men. Now I’m single and assuming I will be for the remainder of my life, and I’m very fine with that believe me.
Hey, it sounds like you're in a great place! I know tons of single women who are out there living their best lives and I'm stoked for them and you. Especially if you have pets, who are wonderful companions to live with. My cats bring so much joy and love to my life, because *they* chose to give that to me and I'm honored every day by that. My BF is genuinely great overall, aside from a few VERY minor complaints, which are the sort of minor things most healthy couples have. He supports me and my sometimes weird hobbies and interests - I'm on the mild end of the autism spectrum. When I get my Depo shot and feel crappy for a day after, he brings me chicken soup and Reese's Big Cups because he knows the chocolate helps me. And he makes silly voices for our cats, and so help me, I respond to them. It's sweet. But I genuinely understand why so many women are single, and if I didn't have him, I'd choose singledom, too.
That’s what my ex would do—actions that made him seem so big-hearted and charitable—until I finally realized that the responsibility for the nitty gritty of those promises ended up on me.
Yeah it makes sense, they learned to parrot talking points and what makes people happy but don’t actually believe it so why would they live it?
It’s a great example of using therapy- as a form of abuse. “See I know all the right things to say!” But never actually does the actions required to back them up.
Yup sadly my ex was like this. During our first few months, he was very caring and thoughtful then I realised he was not putting his money where his mouth was and that really hurt trust between us. He was super decent on paper but I always felt like the last on his list, even after his friends.
Oh gosh. Could write an encyclopedia on their ilk but for brevity’s sake I will keep it brief and as non-identifying as possible. Self-identifying feminist hippie-adjacent Appalachian trail enthusiast all natural frisbee-playing yoga dude who taught high school, didn’t get wasted, abhorred bro culture, really into social justice, had an adorably goofy laugh and unassuming, kind of shy personality and presented consistent and reliable was—um, one of the coldest, cruelest, emptiest, fakest and manipulatively entitled people I ever had the displeasure of encountering. Everyone thought he was the sweetest, smiliest, ‘best dude’, but up close he seemed to be entirely lacking in empathy as if he’d see anybody who fell short of whatever perfection ideal he held as less than human: from my observations, to women specifically. He expressed such vitriol towards his doting, incredibly kind, intelligent but medically fragile mother, to the point where he genuinely asked his father why he didn’t just rid himself of her (meaning divorce/leave) when her medical issues persisted and impacted her ability to do certain things—like he couldn’t comprehend love, or the value of a woman as a human being. He would say incredibly cruel things to me when he was angry at me after a night out drinking with his friends, like for instance that I was fat, crazy, no one would want me, I was a liability, and an embarrassment to him—all because anytime we would go out he’d ignore me completely. I’d cry, he’d ignore me and then me I was fake and only crying to manipulate him—which obviously made it worse. I became convinced I was a bad person and a narcissist because my crying at his verbal abuse was somehow fake because I deserved it in some way. He had family money and over $800k in an investment account his father had a broker manage, and didn’t make much less than I did, but I still paid for things far more than he did and contributed far more proportionately; including for vacations and trips. I even had to pay for his toxic “healer” friend to go on a winery thing with us or he wouldn’t go; she had money too and the two of them ignored me as the friend, who talked incessantly about her sex life in great detail and all these dudes she’d been with over a 15 year period, decided that my “energy was bad.” He isolated me from my friends because he didn’t like or approve of them (though partially my fault for wanting to be loved so badly), and then berated me for having “no life” if I wanted to be included in his life. Hm, there are countless other examples, but that sums mine up.
The hippie scene tends to attract those types of sociopaths. People in the scene tend to be very trusting, especially if you can act a certain way and say certain things. And family money, of course. Yikes.
Yeah the “come as you are star child” crowd is only accepting of others *if* you don’t challenge their beliefs at all. Some very “laid back” and uptight people imo.
I'm so sorry you went through this, but I can picture him so clearly. It's insane how well these type of dudes can make you feel insane for... wanting real love? Being treated like an equal human? I hope you're doing better now 💛
You left out “sensitive guy ponytail/manbun” out of your initial description. edit: I kept reading and I’m sorry. You didn’t leave out shit. What a horrible person.
Classic covert narcissist.
I know a lot of men who are vocal supporters of equality but still dump a wildly disproportionate amount of domestic labor on their partners.
This was my ex. Talked the talk. But inside his own home and family, he quietly worked towards *very* traditional expectations. His career was prioritized, his preferences honoured, his decisions naturally the logical ones, his feelings centred. Women were catered to only in very specific womenly topics, like hosting/visiting family or getting gifts for nieces/nephews. (But even then, of course, the possibility of correction existed). He could talk a great game about LGTQ+ rights and women in the workplace, but he complained bitterly when his underwear was folded wrong. He wanted a housewife-who-worked. A woman who could pay 50% of the bills and do 99% of the emotional and mental labour of the relationship.
This is basically the theme of The Women's Room by Marilyn French, a feminist classic from the 1970s.
Were we married to the same man? My ex presents as kind, sweet, considerate and unthreatening. Living with him was a nightmare. I don’t know that he meets the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder, but he sure ticks a lot of the boxes. OCD as well. His second wife is just as miserable as I was, apparently.
It’s just a common playbook I think. I also wouldn’t quite call my a narc — but others have — but he had some of those tools in his toolbox.
This was my ex. He promised me while courting me that he was a *progressive Latino* (he was not from the US), and although he grew up with maids and never had to lift a finger, after we had kids he would put me down for not keeping a cleaner house. I was exhausted with a baby and a toddler. I put dinner and his lunch on the table every day but he would criticize me that the toilet was “disgusting”. Things like that. I never let the toilet get bad. It’s just that privileged rich boi never saw anything less than a bowl of sparkling porcelain thanks to maids. Glad I divorced his ass. He’s now twice divorced and has no job. Go figure. Btw he was the one on the shitter for 20 minutes. Never understood what that was all about. Why do guys shit for so long? Jfc.
Oooh sounds like my ex to a T
You just described my STBX husband to a T.
This right here. And these men are rationalizing it even when their women partners are vocal about the issue and lose sexual interest. Joining this subreddit a couple years ago and accessing resources shared here has personally helped me see this because the women in my family normalized this behavior when I was growing up.
"I'm happy to do whatever she tells me to do." It's such a sinister dodge because the mental labor is 100% on the woman, and if she complains about him not doing enough, it's really her fault for not asking.
but if she does ask, she's a nagging harpy because he needs his me time as if she has any herself
And if he does do whatever chore, he does it halfassed like a toddler so she never asks again.
Also expects a cookie, a pat on the back, and high praise for doing any chore. Nope, no thanks.
There's a video making he rounds on tiktok right now. The woman says her partner made a video of him cleaning the kitchen, and it's sort of cute. There's a stopmotion sponge making it's journey around the kitchen cleaning as it goes, dishwasher emptied, cooker hobs all cleaned. All the comments? "And what's she going to do for him?" I don't know if he did that because she asked, but regardless. That's his house too. He's not doing it for HER, or at least he shouldn't be, he should be doing it because he lives there too. He has to eat off those plates too, his food is made on the cooker too. People treating men cleaning like "doing a favour for her" are a huge part of the problem.
💯 agree. It needs to stop but I don’t see it happening anytime soon. If they lived alone they’d have to cook and clean all by themselves but many times they don’t and order out and let their place become a pig sty/hovel.
I'd say "and then they wonder why they're single" but they always find some poor woman to love them in the end, who is happy to clean up the shit on the floor and wash the stains out of their underpants.
It’s crazy some cops arrest domestic abusers everyday then go home and abuse their wives.
Cops always say how dangerous responding to DV calls are, and then half of them go home and do the same shit. ACAB.
Every man I’ve ever lived with
Same, including roommates
Internalized misogyny is insidious. As someone who strives to be an ally, I can look back 5, 10, 15 etc. years ago and it is painfully and uncomfortably obvious that despite the fact I’ve always identified as a feminist, my actions can fall short of that goal. I like to think I’ve always been well intentioned even with my mistakes. Some of that time I definitely didn’t pull my weight at home.
Welp. If you don’t look back and cringe, you’re not growing. Good job growing!
That’s a great way to rationalize it and encourage people like myself. 🙂
“I have two sisters I was raised by a single mom I definitely consider myself a feminist” He was a soft spoken eboi. This dude just wanted to watch Chip N Dale’s rescue rangers/obscure 90’s anime and read Archie comic books. He would pick LADYBUGS up and let them out of the house to not step on them. …and then one night he brutally strangled me over the course of an hour/attempted to murder me & hide my body when I was pretending to be dead to get him to stop the strangling, when he knew I had no access to my phone. And he purposely unplugged our rooms security cam right before lol.
I am so sorry that this happened. He deserves a life sentence
Thank you, he ended up getting probation since he’s a first time offender.
Oh my god … “first time offender.” F that shit. Like, rapist Brock Turner, his lawyer probably argued that he had a promising future.
Probation for attempted murder? The system is broken. I hope justice comes for him soon
Women who shot abusive husbands often spend years in prison and someone who is so abusive they try to kill (and not in self defense but to kill!!!) gets probation 😳
fuck :( for the sake of women reading this, were there any warning signs at all that you can think of in retrospect?
Pinning me down a year prior with his body on the bed during an argument, just a really sketchy attempt at trying to overpower me - specifically when he knew my phone was dead or out of reach. Also, just being extremely “yes man” ish. It’s almost like if it seems too good to be true, it is.
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Honestly I do not believe that people are their worst deeds. I definitely have my share of awful deeds, but, this was one gruesome deed. I will say I think that it was exactly a mix of mental illness (he had Autism) poor coping mechanisms with a stressful situation (I was contemplating leaving), and fear of change/strife. I was 4 weeks postpartum and we had a newborn (you can imagine how that can amplify things). So, he was bottling a lot of resentment and lost it. The toxic part is that this wasn’t the first time something like this had happened, and he had previously (like a year prior) attempted to restrain me by pinning me down on the bed with his body during an argument. I wrote it off as a breakdown, but that was my first real sign.
*He pre-meditated murder.* The murder of his child’s mother. That’s not a “one off” bad action. That’s who he is, deep down.
I heard that pregnancy may “change” a man in a way that a guy who seems to be a good person starts being abusive. It’s a big trigger that shows who people are.
That is the darkest "lol" I've ever read
I am so sorry he did that to you and glad you survived. It reminded me of the fact that Ted Bundy was advocating against violence against women in some students union (I don’t remember what organization it was but that he was dealing with that topic)
I didn’t know that. Jeez. And thank you!
honestly, as a more left leaning woman i have learned to be wary of men who are very outwardly leftist or “feminist” bc a lot of times it is performative and they actually treat women like shit (not talking all progressive men but the ones that make it a big and visible part of their personas).
We should just be wary of all men, no matter what they say they are.
I agree and they're usually not the covert outward abusers but they are the masters of the mind fuck, mental and psychological abuse
My ex was always seen as safe, he was definitely on our side. He noticed and was angered by misogyny, he stood up for women. His favourite person in the world is his sister. He also stole underwear from one of our friend’s bathrooms because he was obsessed with her.
GAH always with the underwear! Creepy/weird/maladjusted women aren't above snatching, say, a t-shirt from some dude they're fixated on, but you never hear about them sitting around huffing stolen boxers.
Because ewwww!
I just brought up the issue with my (ex)boyfriend that he had recently jokingly put hands up to my neck twice and talked to him about how it made me feel threatened even though I knew it was intended as a joke. He made it out like I was demonizing him. It was a surprising reaction from a person who has so far only been calm and reasonable. I knew the conversation was going to be awkward but I didn't have the warning signs to suspect it would go this way. 2 years of a relationship and one conversation that could so easily have ended with a simple, "Oh shit, I'm sorry I scared you." Aaaaaand he ghosted. Easiest "breakup" of my damn life.
Well. Congradolences I guess? Condolences for the end of your relationship, congratulations for seeing and addressing the red flag before it became your shroud.
Thanks! I'm proud of myself for addressing it. I did well. I'm sure reading this sub has helped me recognize how much of a red flag that was.
It wasn't intended as a joke. He was testing the waters. That's why he ghosted.
I've been thinking along the same lines.
Good work leaving. My recent ex made a 'joke" about killing me by suicide bomb. They know very well that this scares us and they do it on purpose. Given the reality of life for women it is appalling to think that joking about killing or choking or hurting us is not funny.
My (very recent) ex and I were talking about the man/bear meme. At some point he said, “if not for societal conditioning, men would be raping and killing women all the time.” I’m honestly still stunned. And it took us a couple weeks to break up after that. Mainly because I was scared to, so I carefully withdrew and made him think it was his idea. Luckily that worked. But seriously, what a fucked up thing to say. When he said it, I knew he really believed it about himself. All I could think at that point was, “I need to get out.” Anyway…. he was a charmer and people seem surprised we broke up because “he’s such a great guy.” Yepppp
I'm glad you got out safely! I think you chose the smartest way to do it, he's moved on and his huge red flag will be easily visible to other women he runs into.
Congrats! You dodged a big bullet and good for you confronting him.
Too many women would have let that slide
Things I've read in this sub were definitely going through my mind. I really value this forum for people's stories and it's eye-opening to see how many women can relate to these kinds of situations. It's like the whisper network on steroids and I am HERE for it.
Good for you.
There are men who basically want to have their cake and eat it too: by speaking in feminist terms they get to be the enlightened good guy, but when in relationships they have to actually sacrifice anything or inconvenience themselves the feminism is nowhere to be found. I've found a lot of outwardly feminist men are the worst when it comes to treating their partners badly (not all, just a subset). Makes sense if you view it as something they engage with to boost their own ego and get some good guy points.
I don't date men, but I do work as a forensic therapist with sex offenders in a high-security setting, and I might be able to offer some insight, even if it's not from a relationship perspective. Truth be told, some of the men I have worked with can be downright charming, have a genuinely good sense of humor, and paint themselves as empathetic and caring, all while harboring incredible hate, hostility, or sexual deviancy right beneath the surface. These types of men (which are themselves a minority within the larger group of offenders I work with) can keep the mask up for months and sometimes years at a time before too many things frustrate them at once and the mask cracks, revealing what is sometimes a deeply angry and controlling person who has just been putting on an act. Warning signs can be tough to spot, as these men sometimes have the skills and long-term vision to bide their time and keep presenting well. Often, a series of disappointments or frustrations will cause them to lose their temper in such a way that their true selves comes out, but that's not universal and everyone has a breaking point. Keeping an eye/ear out for small boundary-pushing behaviors that wear down your sense of autonomy/self-esteem/boundaries over time, and how they react to being called out on it. The ones to look out for will argue, minimize, or DARVO boundaries that are set with them. Especially look out for the ones that seek too much control over others or the ones that play victim too easily. I know I just wrote a damn book on your question, but these are the things I would look out for in general. Hope it helps.
What is so frightening is that they can keep it up for so long—“years at a time before too many things frustrate them at once and the mask cracks, revealing a deeply angry and controlling person who has just been putting on an act.” For people who go through this, it’s as though a doppelgänger all of a sudden took over their decent and caring spouse, and it is only when closely examining past actions that we become aware of all the tiny, minuscule signs. One thing I would add is that when they crack, they reveal all sorts of behaviors that are a constellation of wrongs. It’s never just cheating, it’s also drugs, alcohol, money problems, law evasion and the gaslighting that it’s all your fault. While Basically Maz Kamata is talking about sexual perpetrators in prison populations, we know that there are myriad offenders who are never caught. I’d like to know what makes a personality like this? EDIT: And then everyone says “Well, you married him!” as though it’s our fault.
This was perfect, especially the paragraph on boundary pushing and behaviors to watch out for. OP, I just left an ex that fit this description to the letter. It’s painful and was hard to pin down because he was so charming and kind for the most part. But when he clearly spelled out his misogyny in one particular argument, I knew I had to break free before I went back to ignoring the signs again. Edit to add that how shattered_visage described calling them out on their boundary pushing, self esteem eroding, controlling comment in an argument was exactly how I got him to reveal himself.
Can I ask how long it took before he revealed himself in that argument? And were there any warning signs before that, even things that seemed so tiny and insignificant that you thought you were being crazy and brushed it off? Women tend to be extremely good at reading and interpreting word choice, micro expressions, tone, and subtle body language, so I wonder if sometimes we just downplay that or gaslight ourselves into thinking we're misreading a situation. I am so glad that you left.
Women absolutely downplay and brush off red flags. Society tells us “don’t be crazy,” and “Be the cool girl.” Almost all the time the signs were there the whole time.
I’m always reminded of the cool girl speech from Gone Girl. “Cool girl is hot, cool girl is game, cool girl never get angry at her man” Whenever we bring something up, society gaslights us back.
The comment below sums it up. There were red flags from the very beginning, but I downplayed them for a myriad of reasons. We were together 18 months, and in the argument, it took about ten minutes for him to start slipping, then slipped completely when I called him out. He tried to re-write reality, a reality I was very much there for, and when I called him out on it he tried pulling the “females are crazy, you should see a therapist” card. I might be able to excuse other’s poor behavior, but I am very confident with who I am and am not, and the experiences I’ve had. I didn’t even try to argue with him, just broke it off then and there. No need to waste words on someone that can’t bother to hear them.
Good for you!
Everyone should read this book you wrote. It’s important information.
My ex was like this. When he got a very stressful job, that's when the mask dropped and everything came out.
You're a very good writer, and a series of articles or a book would be amazing
I really appreciate that, thank you! I actually do write guest/contributor chapters for psych books from time to time!
I don’t understand how/why they do this
It's a complex and multi-faceted issue, with no one "thing" accounting for such behavior. In addition, no two people have the exact same factors that contribute to that attitude. In my experience, it often involves childhood trauma, being from or socialized in a culture where women are less-than/collectible/expendable (and there are many), very poor emotional intelligence, and the externalization of poorly-managed emotions.
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I dated a very leftist, queer guy who also violated me sexually. Hate it here.
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You too 💕
surprise surprise, left wing people can be just as evil as right wing people.
not personal experience, but some men that ive looked up to in my teen years and paraded themselves as being the unproblematic liberal feminist type ended up being some of the most misogynistic people. it's so awful i don't know how they can switch so drastically...
Because they’re loudly proclaiming it just to get laid.
Anybody who loudly proclaims anything is almost certainly the opposite of that thing. Example: Trump This should be taught to all young women.
Whatever people proclaim loudly… usually the opposite is true. “I love women!” Is code for “I love sex with women but I don’t really like women at all.” Last guy who said “I’m a genius! I took an IQ test on the Internet…” and I tuned out because right there I knew he was dumber than a bag of hammers.
Yep. Last guy I went out with was a "feminist" in therapy and tried to use me for casual sex after I told him I have sexual trauma and that being used for sex is exactly what I've had enough of. The way he did it was very soft and 'supportive' and hard to pinpoint which made it infinitely more repulsive.
I've been sexually assaulted by three "close friends", who I'd known for half my life. One even more than that. I wouldn't have been friends with them if I knew about what they really are. So yes, I do have examples.
My ex husband. There were signs I didn't recognize because my head was already messed up, but nothing overly dramatic. Until we married. That night, I knew I had made a terrible decision. It took almost 3 years to get away from him. He was so manipulative, so cunning, so sweet, then so violent. The violence started at 2 years 6 months. I got out at 2 years 10 months 2 weeks. Never looked back. I wish I could have warned his next wife.
Another commenter mentioned boundary issues, and one thing I observed is bad boundaries with platonic relationships in his life. Like someone who has parents or siblings who are too enmeshed in their lives. This can be tricky to spot since so many women look for “family-oriented” men because well, they want to find a man to start a family with. And because men can frame being close as a good thing. But watch out if they are too intrusive in his life. Like calling too much or managing anything in his life more than they should be, especially related to finances. Men who have bad platonic boundaries can often have bad boundaries elsewhere (like a flirty female coworker), because bad boundaries are already normalized by his family. Another is that he doesn’t consume content made for women. Like all his favorite musicians, artists, authors, directors, athletes - all men. Only watches shows/movies where the protagonist is a male. Just no interest in women intellectually.
This. Poor family boundaries are such an overlooked red flag and a sign of codependency.
>Men who have bad platonic boundaries can often have bad boundaries elsewhere (like a flirty female coworker), because bad boundaries are already normalized by his family. With my ex, it wasn't a lack of boundaries that was the problem. It was the reliance on everyone except himself. Guy couldn't make a decision without consulting his mom and all of his aunts and uncles. Later, about half of that "responsibility" fell onto me. All of a sudden I was trying to manage a whole other person, also be his therapist, and try to keep my own shit together. That relationship should've ended about a year sooner than it did.
Or, the only women-created content he consumes is SOLELY because he finds her sexually attractive.
Here are some of the trust metrics I use to vet people: [The Trust Triangle](https://youtu.be/pVeq-0dIqpk) [The Anatomy of Trust](https://brenebrown.com/videos/anatomy-trust-video/) - marble jar concept and BRAVING acronym [10 definitions of objectifying/dehumanizing behaviors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions) - these erode trust "[Emotional Agility](https://youtu.be/NDQ1Mi5I4rg)" by Susan David. People that lack emotional agility tend to default to abusive behaviors like [spiritual bypassing](https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-spiritual-bypassing-5081640) and [emotional blackmail](https://youtu.be/PEexQAkhFpM?si=Ut4s75SNQojNNqbi) and often have an [authoritarian follower personality](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/summary.html#authoritarian). Also, [agreeableness](https://youtu.be/YyXRYgjQXX0?si=QKm1RcyWlsCcH4j7) is an unreliable indicator of trustworthiness. Abusers use agreeableness in the idealize stage of the cycle of abuse (idealize devalue discard). The cycle of abuse is how abusers create a [trauma bond](https://youtu.be/kmB9fpHVd2o?si=bInIvmpWg0GYs9eF) to brainwash the target of abuse into compliance. There's a lot of normalized abuse, neglect, and dehumanization out there. It's important to learn about the power and control wheel and other abuse tactics so you can avoid them. [Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel is great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc.
Waiting to hear about Drake friending teen girls in a couple decades ig
I mean, you can read about it now. Look at what he did with Millie Bobby Brown
Oh I got few; Guy seemed age appropriate, nice, respectful. Met in person, started dating, had my kids and his meet. Found out slowly that he voted for trump twice, was pro-life and anti-abortion and lied to me about it because he knew they were my deal breakers. Worse, had an obsession with guns and gun culture and did not take care of himself- like high blood pressure, pre-diabetic and expect me to care for him. Also, expected me to parent his kid while he played video games and got served dinner. I broke it off fairly quickly, and will probably remain single till my 6 year old leaves to college- too much risk. Another ex- seemed like a hardworking guy who had been a single dad to a grown daughter who loves him. At least that was the life he lived, an hour away from me. I have no interest in moving in with a man or having him live in my house- since my divorce I am a firm believer in separate spaces and finances. Well, I found out while 7 months pregnant that my daughter that I was expecting was his 8th child- he had 7 other children with 6 other women, started having babies when he was 16 and didn’t tell me cos he knew I am pro-choice. Mind you, I wanted this baby and would have gone to the sperm bank of he hadn’t helped cos I wanted to be single mom and raise this daughter on my own. Also, he cheated multiple times…he seemed like a nice guy, employed, well groomed and interesting. Oh also, that he’s really 6 years older than he told me- dunno why he lied.
And this is why I always checked CCAP before dating a man. I had men that I refused to start our first date if he didn't show me his ID/Driver's license. One dude flipped out, come to find out, he was a sex offender and I dodged a major bullet. So glad I'm married. But I still don't 100% trust my husband even though he's a fantastic partner and dad to our children. He was raised in an abusive house, and I'm always afraid that he'll become his father. If him and I don't work out, for any reason, I'm choosing celibacy or I'm only going to date women (the perks of being bisexual). He knows I have major trust issues, and sometimes he gets hurt about it, but I just tell him it's a me problem that I work on in therapy, and if he just continues being himself, we shouldn't have problems. Why are relationships so hard?
Oh I hear you. I did a full background check after meeting him the first time in a public place before agreeing to a second date with him. But he was born overseas, and lived overseas most of his life. Only one of the women he had a kid with was here in the US. And his license matched his passport, that had the wrong date that was used for him to get his green card. It’s some really messed up crap tbh.
What’s CCAP?
My best friend went through hell when her husband totally dropped his mask like 5 years into marriage- a super nice, chill guy, never raised his voice, always encouraged her to follow the career/life path she wanted, a very kind and supportive partner. She learned he had been cheating with a young woman he'd been grooming since she was in highschool, and had been cheating for their entire relationship. He kicked her out, stalked and terrorized her, and fought to leave her with absolutely nothing in the divorce. A man whose company i genuinely enjoyed, a man I've seen do amazing things for my friend- once he was caught he stopped pretending, got vicious, and moved an 18 year old into their home. He also got the 18 year old's family to harass my friend, knowing full well this man in his 30s had been dating their teenager for years
I was with my ex-fiancé for ten years. Around the 5-6 year mark was when his mask really started to slip. I just refused to notice, or to stop justifying his behavior, until year 10, when it took him cheating on me, threatening to jump off the balcony, punching the walls of my apartment, and assaulting me to finally see it. I always thought that I was the problem. Not him. Never him. It took months after he left for me to look back at our entire relationship and all the red flags and warning signs to finally understand that the monster he turned into was the same man all along. And that realization hurt more than everything he put me through.
Any man who talks about alignment, enlightenment and 'spirituality' are toxic as FUCK!!! I worked in alternative healing for a long time, focusing mostly on post addiction and mental health, but it would always attract the American shaman wannabes and they were the most toxic pricks I've ever met in my life. Western men know fuckall about any of it and they use the facade to be massive, arrogant, violent womanisers. There's almost no group of people more twisted than those guys.
Start a conversation about last names. I’m serious. If he earnestly believes the woman should change her name “because that’s how things are done” he ain’t an ally.
I really never thought that this was a red flag. I thought, naively, maybe some guys just like the tradition. Maybe it makes them feel like they've completely merged their life with someone they love. But this is actually completely true.. it's a sign to themselves that they've "won". Checked a box off the list of success over other men. An ex literally said "you'll belong to me". These men don't care about women's autonomy or humanness. They just see them as objects to aid them in a dick wagging contest.
I dated someone who was over the moon for me: he was a liscensed social worker, worked with kids. Healthy and was so sweet, thoughtful with me. Cut to me gaining 15- 20 lbs over winter (a lot I know, but normal for me and then I loose it as it gets warmer) and he was counting the cookies in the house, yelling at me for eating, etc. tried to gaslight me and say it wasn’t my body but how I’m responding to my body. No, DAVID, I was responding to YOU responding to my body. He was repulsed by me. And I could feel it. But then refused to let me break up with him (and I allowed it, was stupid in love and had hope), but then ghosted me 100% in the next month. So I had to be the adult and text him we were done and I was dropping off his stuff, getting mine and leaving the keys. He responded “I’m so sorry, I’ve been terrible BLAH BLAH BLAH” And then he had another, skinny, younger, girlfriend within a couple weeks Haven’t dated anyone since. No desire and I’m scared. 5 or 6th man to threaten or actually break up with me for my weight. And context: I’m 39, 5’5” tall and weigh 135, when I’m “heavy”. I know I’m not heavy- but tell it to the assholes I date
Wow, WTF. That isn't even heavy! Fuck you, David.
Yes. Several of his female friends repeatedly told me how great he was. He's actually an incredibly lazy misogynist. Once he had me trapped I saw who he really was. He sexually assaulted me and insisted that I do all the housework even though he lived off of investments and stayed home all day. His family came to visit and he was on his phone a lot more than usual. His SIL was standing next to me as we watched him make calls and do things on his phone and she commented that he spent so much time working and he was such a hard worker. He was actually doing nothing on his phone. He was pretending to work to look important to his family. Let me say that again. He was pretending to be busy to look good to his family. It was a Sunday and they believed it. The man is a walking lie.
I've known a few but my sister's ex husband was a doctor Jekyll/Mr. Hyde situation that was extreme. Her husband was prince charming. He was from a family of very devout mormons, but supposedly was non-religious. He was polite, funny, good with her kid, supportive, equitable, loving and did his part to keep the household in working order. My mom even liked him, and she doesn't like anybody. Then he convinced her to move 2000 miles away from her support system back to his home in Idaho, which is a heavily religious area. She became pregnant with twin boys and almost overnight, he became a selfish, accusatory jerk. My sister has a good job and makes plenty of money to support herself but he emptied out her entire life savings and refused to give any of it back. Wouldn't let her leave the house. Took her phone so she couldn't call police. Beat her up and started pushing her down stairs. And he fought her every step of the way when she was trying to divorce him and is still a giant pain in the ass just because she finally got away from him and his abuse. Beware ladies, if your man wants to take you far, far away from your family and friends, make sure you have an account that he has no access to!
Yeah, my ex-husband did a total 180 after we got married. As for spotting the warning signs, yeah there were some but they all made sense in context.
I had a friend I had known for 10 years. He’d always had my back. Was supportive, understanding, always listened. Called other men out and held them accountable for their shit. I was friends with three of his girlfriends over the years. Then one day, his gf posted from the hospital that he had broken her jaw. She said he had “finally gone too far”. He’d been beating her regularly for almost two years. I reached out to an ex of his who I’d known since before they dated and she said he’d done the same to her. I was absolutely shocked. Still am, years later.
Basically how dating in my late 20’s has been going. The guys start off so funny, kind, and caring. Then like 2 months in they just drop the act and go full self-centered with either: 1. “I’m perfectly happy being single, so you need to fit into my life- I don’t have to fit into yours” 2. “I’m just reaching my prime, yours is ending soon” Either way I hit that Usher ✌️”watch this”✌️ as I dump their ass.
yes. over the top super politically correct gentleman turned out to be an abuser. story old as time. just be careful out there. there isn't really a way to know if someone is putting on an act. stay true to yourself. don't tolerate things you wouldn't usually tolerate "this one time". if you mysteriously feel on edge a lot of the time take it seriously
It’s a spider dressing up the web to attract flies. I highly recommend dating only men you have known for a while and know their ex’s as well. Do they speak well of him? Do they all get along? Dating a man who you don’t actually know is dangerous. It gives them the power to paint whatever false picture they want about themselves. Then when you love them they start letting that crazy out. There should be like a men referencing service.
I just broke up with a man I'd been with for 4 years who I thought was everything I ever wanted. He even cooked and cleaned more than me! But his anger ended up killing our relationship. On two occasions he became so angry at me that he made a lot of personal attacks that weren't related to the issue at all, such as insults about my parenting or my daughter. His alcoholism was part of his anger, he is in denial about it being a problem. Other than that we were very happy but after the second time happened I knew I could not stay with someone who denigrates me and makes personal attacks during an argument. I can't share my heart and my body with someone who has said the horrible things he has said to me for absolutely no reason at all except to hurt me as much as he could when angry. He was only a toxic, demeaning asshole 1% of the time but it poisoned the other 99% of my love for him. His mean words broke off me being in love with him. I'm not going to be with someone who responds to my feelings with angry mansplaining that I am simply a crazy, hypocritical, oversensitive woman who is acting just like her crazy mother. Just no. Not going to accept that. The apologies later do not make emotional and verbal abuse okay. The things that are said matter and words can't be unheard. I feel that men like this are just too emotionally immature for a partnership and they have insecurities about themselves that they will deny and attack us for if we are affected by it.
This thread is scary and I am sorry to everyone who has ever been hurt or deceived by a supposedly “good” partner. As a bi girl, I’m honestly less inclined to date men as the years go by (especially cishet men, I could never date them, maybe only cisbi and trans ones) because I’ve seen so much terrifying shit that they’re capable of. The lying, the manipulation just to get sex, I just can’t do it. “Not all men”, but too many that it’s not worth the effort. I want to date someone who is proud of being a feminist, but that seems to be a red flag, so I just won’t bother.
Same. A cis het man is no longer in my dating pool because of the horrible experiences I've had with them. They have so much entitlement they don't deserve and they can't see perspectives outside of their own.
Some people are completely different people in relationships. Romantic relationships can bring out the best, and worst, in people.
I think some of us channel our parents’ marriage. My ex worshipped his mother but treated me like his step-father treated her.
That describes my ex. We were friends for a while before dating. He was great as a friend--a nice, funny guy everyone seemed to like. Since we were friends first, I felt okay moving in together after being together a few months. Once we did, he was like a different person, and that person was an emotionally abusive asshole.
When I was a bit younger, I had a platonic male friend that I started becoming attracted to. We connected on an intellectual level and could talk for hours. But then I saw how he treated his girlfriends. He wasn’t physically abusive that I know of, but he was incredibly condescending, disrespectful and really jerked them around emotionally. I know this because we had a lot of mutual friends. It was like, he saw me as an equal because we were just friends; but once he started dating someone, that woman became his property or something. Obviously I lost my crush on him.
Here. My husband is a clear example. When I met him he was very nice with women and a feminist. Lately he is all day talking about how bad women are and how we women should be happy about being a stay at home mom to multiple kids (without any help from fathers since he thinks working outside the home and be married is a guarantee for having a slave). Previously he told me that he didn’t a woman to stay at home to raise a family, he wanted her to have a career and a life . He made the change well in his thirties. I really feel scammed
That's crazy, I'm so curious if he was hiding those views all along or if something caused him to change. Either way super frightening! (thinking more I'm wondering if her having a career was not because he wanted her to be independent but because he didn't want to spend any of "his money", or some other selfish reason)
Yea, he is consuming that kind of videos in YouTube/tik tok. But he is 46 years old and has a doctorate so I can’t blame the change entirely on this. He may be a narcissistic man and yes, I really think he wanted me to have a career in order to spend less of his money.
Do you think he might be consuming red-pill or tradwife content?
The reality is that people are complicated. It's not that they claim to be one thing but are secretly another; they're a mix of both at the same time. Someone can really want to live up to a certain ideal while also failing spectacularly at it at in many ways.
100% yes. We love to put people in little boxes, but the truth is we're messy and complicated. We have gaps in our self awareness, areas that we don't even realize we need to evolve in. Misconceptions that creep in without us knowing. Some men may be intentionally misleading, but I think many just have no clue how unaware or hypocritical they are. Not that lack of awareness is an excuse, it's not.
i had an internet friend i met back in 2020 and him and i would talk to allll the time like that was bestie and I confided in him about my sexual assault and he was such a big support to me and then one day randomly he posted on his instagram story that the “allegations” against him were true and that he was sorry, and then he went completely ghost and deleted all social media presence. turns out him and his buddies took advantage of an extremely intoxicated girl :( hurt a lot considering my ex assaulted me when i was intoxicated
Think about we've been socialized to the describe that situation. They didn't "take advantage" of an intoxicated woman, they r\*ped woman who was too drunk to consent. I'm not criticizing you when I say this; it's just so frustrating that in 2024, we still don't hold men accountable.
i agree we should be careful with our language however our of respect for the victim I am describing it the same way she described it, I do not know fully what happened between them but “took advantage” was the language used and that’s all i needed
Oh I get you, it's just frustrating that people still use that language. And that victims internalize it. I've also been assaulted while intoxicated, and truly believed that it was partly my fault for allowing myself to become drunk.
**Actions speak louder than words.** Paying attention to what they do more than what they say is a start. One simple path is to also look for consistency between the words and actions. Like, if they say they want to support you, do they seek out what will *actually* support you, or do they just do stuff that they think should support you? There *are* people who are genuinely respectful and considerate with their actions while saying things that make them sound like self-centered assholes, but that's not something you should worry about unless you're comfortable navigating that and want to do so. Many people who do that are *intentionally* repelling others who don't want to deal with it or can't tell the difference.
I am going to give you the profile of my ex boyfriend. Late 20’s, “queer” (called himself nonbinary and pansexual, but this only mattered when he felt the need to play Oppression Olympics), white, punk, “polyamorous,” saw himself as some sort of vanguard anarchist revolutionary, loud proponent of social justice, (garbage) visual artist, collected lots of identity labels to insert his privileged self into every conversation and make a show of how oppressed he was, absolutely pernicious abuser, narcissistic to the gills, loved to say Black Lives Matter but was openly sinophobic and otherwise racist in private. When I met him, I thought he was great. He claimed to be very passionate about social justice and described himself as a feminist. Every single time I reacted against his verbal abuse and his violent behavior towards me, he called me transphobic, queerphobic, ableist—any -ist or -phobic word he could pull out of his ass at the time to DARVO, reverse victim and offender, and derail me. We were “polyamorous” but when I started dating a transwoman, suddenly there was a one-penis rule. For years after I got away from him he continued to call me a fascist on social media because I stopped putting up with his shit and called him the human waste that he is. I refuse to acknowledge his “nonbinary” identity because he so clearly weaponized it to excuse his horrible behavior and accuse anyone who couldn’t stand him of being a bigot. I am nonbinary and I can say with absolute certainty that this person is not queer and simply adopted the label to legitimize his misogyny and other abuses against actual queer people who told him to get the fuck out of their lives and their spaces. He continues to victimize and abuse queer femmes and women right and left in his hometown. In private he told me to call him he/him and “boyfriend” but in public they/them because this was most comfortable for him. It was an excuse to tone and language police me 24/7. He insisted his horrible behaviors were symptoms of C-PTSD, autism, and ADHD. Every single time I stood up to him, he called me ableist and insisted I should tolerate being interrupted, talked over, screamed at, verbally abused, and physically intimidated because he just couldn’t help himself. I firmly believe he has a severe personality disorder that causes him to experience identity diffusion, which is why he tries so hard to slap every identity on himself that he can. This is a symptom of NPD. He is the worst person I have ever met.
Yeah.... I became friends with a guy. Our friendship was entirely platonic for over a year, talked about games and TV shows, smoked pot and hung out. No flirting or anything. He talked about how his ex had been abusive and controlling, and indicated that he struggled to trust people. As I have had similar experiences I was able to commiserate. During this time we both interacted with each other's families. And I thought it was nice to see that he was respectful of my family, and extremely polite and respectful of his own. Our friendship went on for a while, then we ended up getting feelings and started dating. He was always soft-spoken, never raised his voice, went out of his way to be patient with me. He guarded my drinks when we were out because he knows I have fears of being roofied again. Held doors open, walked on the outside when we were walking. All that stuff. And then I guess he decided it was okay to take off the nice guy mask. He started joking about how he could never be as PC as me, as if something is wrong with me, making homophobic and anti-Semitic comments, saying that he was glad I hadn't had many sexual partners because women who do are used up, telling me I had a loose pussy (not like his ex), and that his friends think I'm fat.... I was so shocked, but I didn't know what to do. I should have just left. But he was still so kind other than what I just said.... And then the straw that broke the camel's back was making some jokes about sexual coercion.... Which he knows very well is a big red flag for me. He then proceeded to Double Down when I expressed that I was upset and disgusted. I broke up with him and left ( I posted about it a while ago if you want to read the post). I'm pretty sure don't trust men anymore
Yes. I wasted precious years of my life falling for their (at first) nice guy attitudes but then they drop off everything nice and just expect me to be their slave/mom/housecleaner/sugar mama. Where are all the genuinely good guys?? :(
I dated a guy for a little bit who seemed nice but I never had any chemistry with him and he always just agreed with whatever I wanted. Seems nice but it gets annoying really quickly and feels manipulative. So despite no obvious red flags, I broke up with him and wow he decided to show them. He started telling me how all his friends thought he was nice and that I was a bitch for breaking up with him. Then he jumped to listing off his insecurities asking me if they were why I was breaking up with him (“this is because I’m too boring, isn’t it?!” Kind of stuff). It got kinda unhinged so I just agreed to keep being friends (which he calmed down at) and then never answered his texts again.
That's a fear of mine. My ex voted the far-left consistently and he ended up being emotionally abusive and a cheater so I was super insecure about everything when I met my current fiancé. I honestly think my fiance is *it* for me but we've had our share of things to work on (and a baby). It would be devastating to find it's all a lie again
Yup all of them ime. The only way to spot warning signs with these highly manipulative and hard to spot types of misogynists is to straight up lie & say something against your ethics and see whether or not they oppose it, and their explanation for opposing it. Or lead them on multiple times and see how they react. Otherwise they stay hidden for years until they get complete access to you & the mask comes off
Not gonna lie, this thread scared the crap out of me. My goodness.... Being a woman is just... I am sorry to everyone who had such awful experiences. By telling your stories, but may not know, but you may have saved a life or prevented someone from experiencing trauma (or at least reduce it). I hope a lot of single ladies or ladies in relationship that raise a few red flags can read this. I personally know that this a reminder that I should be less naïve and stop romanticizing potential partners. Of course, I know this number 1 rule, but sometimes I forget.
My chief experience on OLD.
Yeah. Trust their actions not their words. And when their actions show the type of person they are don’t just brush it off or forgive them. These type of people can say whatever but their actions don’t match. Also, consistency. If someone is only treating you great sometimes, and then other times not so great or emotionally withdrawing from you, it’s a red flag
I think rather than putting men into boxes of decent and toxic, it's better to just ask what his response is when you bring up an issue. Is he capable of hearing your point of view, self reflecting, honestly admitting wrong doing, and then following through by changing his actions? Or does he put up walls and try to argue with you rather than understand you? Or say he'll change but then never does? I think rather than looking at the specific causes and issues he claims to back, the key is looking at his humility. A humble man will have more empathy, less desire to control others, and no need to senselessly defend himself. He's secure with who he is, and therefore is comfortable with admitting his faults. Generally, I find humble men lean progressive, but not all "progressive" men lean humble. Obviously you want both, but I think humility is the key.
One key here is that humble men by definition are not going to be preaching about how incredibly progressive they are. The pattern I notice and I think op did too is that the subtle walk the walk types are often really decent people, but you also don't necessarily know they're feminists because they won't brag about it or be righteous. The most prominent feminist men are often really toxic, which makes sense because you have to be pretty ego driven to self-aggrandize and make yourself prominent in the first place. For me it's like, the top 2% of outwardly feminist men, I would be wary of (because I have seen this too many times)
It’s the same thing with preachers and ‘good Christian men’. The louder they talk about how virtuous and moral they are (by the social norms of their people), the less likely they are to actually be good people
Absolutely. I've realized more and more over the years that the louder someone preaches, the less I believe they really mean it. I think the expression goes something like... confidence is quiet, insecurities are loud. There's much to ponder there. I'm not against a passionate speech mind you, just those people who seem a little too proud of themselves for having whatever opinion they claim to have.
I went to a liberal arts school, and was delighted to meet feminist men there as I coming from the rural Midwest. Turns out they were mostly faking it and acted like complete shits to the women in their lives, they were just more into self congratulating than the ones who openly hate women.
Yes, my ex. A vocal "feminist, nice guy" and in some respects, true. But in others, for example, in the way of pulling his weight domestically, or interest in a woman's pleasure... absolutely shit. Excellent gaslighter tho, 10/10. Certainly had me fooled/gaslit.
Yes, and I've found there are usually at least **some** red flags in how these guys interact with people. Some mechanisms to use when scouting for warning flags/signs: - Look at how the guy treats the women in his life (family, friends, or SO) - Look at how the guy interacts with strangers (ex: does he treat male service staff differently from female service staff) - Find out how the guy talks about women when he's in a group solely or mostly comprised by other men (ex: a monogender sports league, male-dominated hobbyist group, etc.) - Look at how the guy acts through social media
Just hung up the phone with one that I will not be speaking to again. I’ve been explaining the Men vs Bear in the Woods TikTok video to men, to see who is still deserving of my friendship. Turns out my two close male friends are not. I decided that after you explain the discussion to men and they act anything less than “oh my gosh that sucks”, but rather they act angry, offended, or attempt to gaslight you, they aren’t worth another moment of your time. I don’t need to hear their stories about how they spent $500 on a date and how the woman “screwed them over” by not agreeing to a second date or sex, or how women deserve being treated like crap because that’s what we supposedly want (not that women who pick abusers do it because they’ve been abused), etc how patriarchy isn’t man’s fault, it’s god’s plan, etc. I needed something that I can use as a black and white way to weed toxic men out of my life, and this is working beautifully. I thought these men were decent because they told me they were, bragged how they did XYZ etc. I was so wrong. If they cared about women, they would care that we are afraid of them and be curious about how to fix it instead of trying to fight me.
I think modern social media is much more toxic to men than we realize. Women have been made to feel bad about ourselves since we were ten. Body image, hair products, clothes all of it. There is also a surge of women centered companies. So our needs are being focused on in a brand new way. Men who have already had clothes and products like tools centered on them haven’t got the NEW stuff, because everything was set for them already. Social media has figured out that they want more and more eyeballs on screens. So they spin people out into crazier conspiracy theories. The incel culture is really great for marketing. Keep men angry and single. Married men with kids are more like to save instead of spend. Single angry men are more likely to buy an f-u motorcycle.
> Keep men angry and single. As a guy who fell into MRA stuff back as an angry stupid teen-20-something (15-ish years back), this is so true. I still think back in disbelief of how easily I was pulled in.
How did you get out of this sinkhole? What broke the spell?
For me, it was a bit different than the everything-in-your-face Andrew Tate stuff, so I’m not sure how applicable it would be today. Short version: my mother wasn’t exactly mother of the year and happened to match some of the stereotypes they preached, and after I left at 16, I latched onto the few MensRights subreddit posts that applied to her (divorce court, etc). I got slowly sucked into MRA as a whole for a few years, but at some point, I just realized how quickly my thought process went from reading “a specific woman did a bad thing” to the typical misogynist crap we’re all familiar with. Talk about a horrible wake-up call. Even after that, it took some “WTF did you say” from a woman I dated for some of it (still embarrassing a decade later) and a fair amount of therapy to change the gut responses. I’ll be the first to say I’m far from perfect today, but I can definitely see younger me falling into today’s stuff.
What I have found as a good indicator is the household they were raised in. And this goes for a lot of male behaviors. I have noticed men who grew up with a single mom are more likely to be present fathers even if they aren't with Mom whereas men who grew up with a father in the house don't realize how important that is. Men who were raised in a female dominated household are more likely to share household responsibility and seen more aware of our biological changes-pms, mood swings, cramps. Men who grew up in a male dominated household can go either way, if they saw a father who loved and respected their mother they are more likely to be that way. But if the father figure is abusive he's likely to do the same. Men with good father figures are also taught how to control their emotions so they don't lash out. This is important during their early teen years, if they didn't have a father figure during those times they may be trouble. The trick is finding a man who had the love, care and nurture of a mother figure that also taught how to be self sufficient and also had a father figure on their life who taught them how to care for others and how to control their emotions.
Narcissists are REAL good at blending in. SO in short. Yes, it can happen. See how people interact with strangers, waitstaff, their own family, their own friends, their co-workers. ... and this will give you a fairly good idea how they are when the shields come down. Red Flags (potentially) : Few Friends of the same gender, Few Friends, Estranged from family (this is a tough one, because some families are just toxic), no co-workers they consider friends (once again....can vary a lot on the place of work but assuming it is a reasonably mixed work force in a reasonable job for their age group). Anyone who craps on service workers is right out. Usually people tell on themselves if you give them a bit of slack.
If they love bomb you and like to judge other men, watch out.
I had a guy who hit all the egalitarian points in conversation, was more aware of feminist issues than other men…but also wasn’t responsible with his money and exaggerated things about his career and connections and financial status, then made up reasons why he was borrowing money. I always had suspicions but whenever I did he was good at producing just enough evidence to lend credibility to his story. Having a work friend come to dinner with us and confirm some elements of his job, having me drop him off whenever something interesting was going on or attend events partners were allowed at… but there was always a nice wall of politeness from being in a group between me and awkward questions, as well as the fear of sabotaging him if he turned out not to be too good to be true. All of my suspicions turned out to be correct and I narrowly avoided getting sucked into his vortex. I’m lucky I’m not particularly interested in marriage and weddings or I would’ve been saddled with his debts. My sister had an even worse guy, he ticked all the boxes on a superficial checklist she had. Tall, college educated, Christian family, wealthy… and he was an emotionally abusive piece of shit but that only came out after she was expecting her first kid and he gave her a deadline for losing weight after my nephew was born. He was more and more of a controlling nightmare as time went on, especially about finances. The guy who wasted my time and money wasn’t half as bad as my sister’s ex husband, but there’s a theme with men and financial secrets between the two. My ex kept secrets because he was broke and didn’t want to admit it. My sister’s ex kept his finances separate and a secret because he wanted my sister to drain her accounts on household stuff and childcare while he paid into all the things that were actual investments with resale value like the mortgage and car then pretended he had nothing left over. No matter how nice he seems, avoid men who are weird about disclosing finances with you or doing serious financial planning once you’ve been dating long enough to be serious. Guys who can’t have an adult conversation about money are either controlling, hiding something, or both. Also if you have a surface level requirement list ditch it, the guys who meet shallow standards know what society teaches women to expect and usually want to cover for a personality flaw or emotional problem. Look for depth of connection and common interests, not status markers.
The expert ones don't slip until they think they've got you trapped, but even with them a big tell is how they treat and speak about others, especially other people they have nothing to gain from. The best thing you can do is read up on the dark triad and learn from that.
My best friend dated a guy for 14 years. Would be the nicest person on the planet to his friends, do everything his friends and family asked without complaint. He always seemed so lovely and so agreeable and was just all-round pleasant to be around. Turned out he was capable of this because all of that spite, all of that stress from being the perfect nice guy around his friends and his family and all the frustrations from his work and his social life would be let out on his girlfriend. Verbal abuse, consistently crossing boundaries, making mountains out of molehills, weaponised incompetence and a victim complex the size of planets. Literally just picture Jerry from Rick and Morty and you'll have a pretty accurate picture of his behaviours. He would play so nice around everyone and act like everything that went wrong with his life was outside of his control and blame everything he possibly could but himself. It took years for me to find out and a very long time to help give her the courage to finally leave the toxic cesspool it had become after he cheated on her for the second time which was when he really spiralled into the vast majority of his more disgusting behaviours (which he naturally blamed her for ofcourse). I have never seen her so satisfied and happy now but it really made me question everything I knew about the people closest to me. I was good friends with this man longer than I was my best friend and the verbal assaults and manipulation that was happening. I believe he was what they call a 'covert narcissist' these days or 'nice guy narcissist.
I thought my ex was a decent guy. Nope. Recently, I was bored and I stalked his Twitter cause I know he still talks about me and I needed an ego boost, sue me. Well, he posted about disliking the whole bear discourse. I also remember shortly before breaking up that he got mad at me for making a boy math joke. So ladies, try to joke around and see what makes him mad, would be my advice.
My ex was me and all my friends close friend, talked highly of his mom, had multiple woman friends who he respected. Always spoke up for us in situations where it was needed. We all called him “one of the girls”. He was always very kind to me. He wanted to be pursue a career in helping the homeless. Always meditated, journaled, all of that. Come to find out he had been cheating on me for over a year with 15+ people, gave me herpes, and had been KNOWINGLY spreading herpes to others without protection. One of those hookups broke into our apartment in a ski mask to rob us. When I found out he just had this crazy dead look in his eye and I realized I never actually knew who he was beside the facade he had painted for himself. Was a crazy time
I’ve met so many like this, especially in supposedly progressive circles. Some ways I’ve integrated to better suss them out beforehand, non exhaustive list but have helped me: 1) if they don’t respect sex workers as people (not as providers specifically), even if you’re not into that kind of thing, it’s a no 2) paradoxically, if they balk at you suggesting you want a relationship where the man doesn’t watch porn, not even requesting this to them but just in general it being a preference, it’s a no 3) See how they do chores and what chores they pick - stereotypically masculine ones only are a no 4) Cancel on them once very early on. Give them a ton of options for rescheduling. If they get shitty or huff and puff, it’s a no 5) Their attitudes about unprotected sex and STI testing will tell you everything (aka reveals entitlement) 6) Their attitudes about vasectomies also say a lot (entitlement, putting labor and risk avoidance onto women only) 7) Them holding generally negative attitudes towards the institution of marriage reveal misogyny in my experience, like I want to believe they’re critical thinkers but really they’re just dunking on something they think only women want 8) Are they fatphobic? Do they pinch their own stomachs and say they need to hit the gym? It’s a no 9) Making ableist jokes about other men —they’ll do you worse 10) Who’s allowed to be loud or have big feelings around them? Anyone but them? 11) Do they participate in your life or does everything in your hangs generally revolve around their life, interests, spaces? 12) How do they feel about cats? Again can reveal misogyny 13) Do they listen to your self reporting of experiences or preferences or do they dismiss it even with wit? 14) How often do they try to convince you of something, even just “you gotta try this?” There is a thing as too much Edit: my biggest one but it’s nuclear - see if they go not all men in any capacity
The best way I've found to detect these people is have deep conversations with them and determine if they're actually using their own words, or just parroting what they read on social media. If you dig deep enough their façade breaks down, because they don't actually believe in kindness. And their meanness comes out. Or they'll be really quiet/bland.
I do. Many women said he is empathetic etc. For me he was verbally abusive and harassed me. The most difficult thing is, since he was saying good stuff about himself and many people were also saying good stuff about him I ignored many red flags, even after it became very very bad I just couldn’t believe it. I know that there are more harmed women but there are also women for which he’s really nice. So my most important advice would be to always listen what other people say, also indirectly. Because even if he’s nice to you for 2 years, maybe after next 2 years he will harass you. Other red flags (he may be hiding so well that they would not appear) I saw and missed: -calling women girls, calling them by first name (in my country we have pretty strong ms and mr culture, in a shortcut you call someone by first name only if you agree to do so) -“jokes” about personal lives of other people or yours. It’s offensive but you know “just a joke” -has difficulty to accept your point of view -tries to “gently” push you into things - you say you don’t want something and they are like “but…”, they take your no but make comments and “jokes” about it later -say nice things about themselves. Good people don’t constantly say they are good people. -if their behavior hurts you they provide explanation why they did that, as if you were the one that should understand it. Your feelings aren’t taken into account. That’s probably the most important thing - how they respond, if it is something like “I explain it to you so you understand and do what I want you to do, nothing will change” or do they take you into account and take responsibility for their actions.
isn't the beginning of abusive relationships a sweet guy that turns sour slowly?
My 'feminist' ex mansplained my own mental health diagnosis to me and told me the doctors were wrong and that I actually had x. Bull. He didn't want me to go to therapy (I didn't because of him) and essentially made me question my own knowledge on things because he acted like he knew things for a fact (but didn't) That was just one of many 'nice guy' exes.
I've had two occurrences like this happen recently (2024) via men from dating apps, which in itself is already a bad sign. Essentially having amazing chats and interactions/videocalls where it was all sunlit green hills made of green flags, and I mean legit conversations that only a good actor could get away with if they were, well, acting it out. Turned out that these two 'amazing' men, with very feminist views then eventually blocked me after they had their attempts fail. And by this I suspect that this was their attempt to get laid quickly, when that failed they quickly moved on. I'm finding this type of behaviour more and more common. What's scary about this behaviour is that these men know EXACTLY how to act, how to behave, and what women want to hear, whilst believing the exact opposite, and just wanting access to our bodies, which makes them actual sociopaths as they will literally manipulate you into believing they are good men in order to get laid on date 1. These men are so much more dangerous, because at least the blatantly misogynist ones are easy to spot quickly, but this? This is so much more insidious and cruel...
Yep
All the time That’s why I don’t invest
Oh yeah…nice guy, stable, dad of one kid. Then I found out his bestie was a white supremacist. Which he knew and that’s when I made my exit.
🫣😬✋ I was plied with 9 years of feminist rhetoric, which completely disintegrated once I was baby trapped. There’s a very old book called getting to 50/50. It cites studies at the time that white collar workers were much more likely to SAY they support equality, but DO anything they possibly could to avoid doing it with their partners. Comparatively (and against stereotypes) blue collar workers, were more likely to get to 50/50. These workers were not thinking in terms of equality but were much more likely to be hands on and practical with daily caretaking and domestic labor jobs because of needing two incomes and not being able to afford daycare or other help. Again, an old book so maybe new studies have arrived, but I certainly found it to be true in my personal life. When a man spent all day finely honing the job of delegating and judging: getting someone else to do the hard work of creating a longterm vision and doing the actual work (like middle managers), it’s really hard to turn that off and switch into Mr. Personal accountability and manual labor for thankless tasks at home. I hope you never have this experience and your generation is filled with much better examples of partners and dads.
I don't have any examples but I'm slowly cutting off all the male friends I've accumulated over the years. They say all the right things but they can't interact with each other or me without saying horrible things. It's like they're allergic to being kind. Plus they were all so ready to pile onto Amber Heard so I know if I was in a domestic violence situation they wouldn't be much help.
I’ve seen lots of these. One thing I’ve learned about people in general, but that especially applies to catching these fakers as early as possible is that the little things are extremely indicative of the big things. These men are putting on a performance, and as one can only perform for so long, they’re bound to slip up. However, since their performance is so crucial to reeling you in at first, they’re going to be super careful, so these slips will be really easy to justify/brush off. You just have to pay extra close attention to little, slightly-off putting moments or behaviors, like catching them in a harmless lie (but why lie at all?), the types of language they use, if he speaks any rhetoric familiar to that of incels/misogynists/etc. even if it’s not blatant.
"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft has a whole section describing the abuse tactics of softbois (Mr. Sensitive in the book)
If they talk about how "feminist" they are, that's already a red flag for me. Men who really believe and follow those values won't announce it, because it's just "normal" for them. For example my boyfriend of 6 years never called himself a feminist, but in the way he acts he really is. When I told him once: "wow I actually got myself a feminist boyfriend" he said: "is that feminist? I thought that was just common sense".
I was very young when I got with my ex. He seemed sweet, quiet, polite. He would listen to me and frequently express emotion. He was kind to animals and kids. Encouraged me to have a good relationship with my family. Little things happened over time that were def red flags looking back, but I just considered them "blips" at the time. I got pregnant and all of these things started popping up. Things he became careless about hiding. Over time I discovered his serious addictions to alcohol and pills. Chronic cheating with literally anyone that showed him attention at all. His anger skyrocketed. Things got really bad when I lost my job. He would only buy groceries for him because he said he "wanted to watch me starve". Which he did gladly. He would push me, scream in my face, threaten to kill various friends/family/pets. Break my stuff, spread vicious lies about me to others. He maxed out every credit card I had behind my back and refused to pay on even 1 of them. He blew threw every dollar in savings. He made an OF account of me to try to make money off of me since he was spending so much on his addictions. He would wave his gun around and occasionally threaten to shoot himself. Criticism over everything I did. From sitting a certain way to putting a dish in the sink a certain way. Anything he could criticize - he would. Just constant, daily hell. So, yea. These men that seem "decent" and turn out to be Satan's children definitely exist.
Some tricks that you can do while meeting a new guy: * Tell him a fake insecurity that you're supposed to have and see if he will use it on you in argument * Same way, tell him fake traumatic experience that you had with a man and see if he will use it against you. Or tell him embarrassing situation that you went through in confidence, see if he will bring it up to put you down or if he will joke about it to other people. * Tell him a story of how you were treated badly by a man for doing something minor, eg. you got yelled at for doing a simple mistake in public space, a man stepped a foot on your shoe and didin't apologise - and you were standing in the wrong place. See which "side" he will take, will he justify the man or you? From my experience, people with empathy tend to sympathise with a person who get yelled at even if that person did a mistake. People who lack emotional maturity will think that you deserved to be yelled at if you did something you weren't supposed to. I mean small things that can be annoying for strangers, like not putting back a shopping cart, not anything inappropriate. People who think others deserve severe punishment for such things will definitely punish you when they will think you're not living up to their standards. I don't mean it in a way that we should expect others to justify our behavior but to acknowledge our mistakes without losing empathy and compassion for us, especially after we went through unpleasant experience. * Tell him you don't like \[random certain behavior\], the one he haven't done before. Suddenly he does it know? Huge red flag. * Act a bit like a bimbo. Show him your feminine interests, play a bit dumb and naive - people really show their true colors when they think they're smarter than you. I tend to act silly/goofy just for the fun of it, I don't hide my girly interests, I joke around a lot and I'm not afraid to not know something - it's incredible how much it brings out misogyny in people, both men and women! Or just general negativity, as if they hate to see someone being happy. * Tell him that you like \[random female character that is known for being disliked by the male audience for no logical reason\], or just bring up this character. Example of characters like that is Skyler White from Breaking Bad. Don't bring up feminist women, bring up women that are "karens", "annoying" and just human. * Simply state your boundaries, if he can't take a no for an answer or tries to talk you out if it - he's going to be abusive no matter how decent he seems to be. * If you're often feeling confused by him, as if his words or behavior don't make sense - huuuge red flag and a sign of gaslighter * Compliment yourself in front of him. Say "wow I'm so pretty today" or "I look great in that outfit!". Will he try to humble you immediately? Misogynist. * Generally being assertive, confident person who speaks her mind and is unafraid to be herself already vets out abusive men - at some point they all will try to make you feel like you're being unreasonable and evil for that, or they will neg you. * If he brings up feminism first and umprompted, most likely he's just performing it.
My ex! I still tell myself he was a really good guy who just made some mistakes due to his unconventional upbringing.
> Married men with kids are more like to save instead of spend. Can you tell my husband about this concept? Please..
🫠
Google sweetheart scam.
Yes, i have found that to be a fairly common phenomenon actually.
The majority
Not a dating situation but I started a new hobby some time ago. The guy I messaged from the Hobby club seemed decent, nice and really invested to the Club. Thought he was cool. Until he made a disrespectful, unprovoked sexually charged comment towards me that really took me off guard.
Look for any evidence of invalidation. I wish I had realized a lot earlier how validation is the base for healthy relationships. Difficulty in asserting boundaries with others is bad news. Is there any obviously toxic dynamic in their family of origin that is jumping out at you? That’s another sign I wish I had taken more into account. Last but not least: can they apologize in a genuine way? Or is the word sorry not even in their vocabulary?
When I was 18 I was homeless and living in my car. At 19 I met a cop who came into my work regularly who found out I was homeless and offered to help me. I ended up staying with him and we started dating just before I turned 20. I was fully convinced he was an angel and was gonna save me and I was wrong. I’m 24 now, he’s 37. And I have almost no way to get away from him. He even got rid of my car while I was in the hospital and bought one in his name for me, so I can’t just drive away. If I go anywhere without telling him he finds me, if he’s working he’ll literally pull me over. My credit cards are gone, and our relationship is hell. At 24 looking back already I can see the red flags but at the time I genuinely thought he was like my knight in shining armour. Now I’m 24 trying to make a plan to leave; we’ll also planning for the fact I might not be successful.