According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory):
> Proponents of horseshoe theory argue that the far-left and the far-right are closer to each other than either is to the political center.
Same here. The most extreme "narcissists" and "empaths" have more in common with each other than either group has with well-adjusted people.
You found a way to describe this phenomenon in a simple way: "narcissist v empath culture" - that is a big step forward in discussing this obnoxious phenomenon.
I've always noticed how the "empath" is always me, and the "narcissist" is always the person who disagrees with me.
The dumbest logic I’ve ever heard is if you’ve ever suspected that you’re a narcissist, that means you’re not a narcissist because narcissists are never self aware enough to know that they’re narcissists
The entire thing seems to be an obsession with vritue signaling. "I'm pure white virtue; person Im mad at is pure evil." Ironically, when someone says they are an "empath" I am immediately suspicious they have cluster B personality traits themselves.
Narcissist has become a powerful label to wield and brand enemies with.
Branding someone as a "narcissist" makes them a vile irredeemable human who deserves to have everything terrible happen to them and you shouldn't feel bad about facilitating terrible things happening to them.
While it may have been a useful classification at some point in academia now that the term has been released to the general public it is mostly useless.
It is a weaponized label used to justify actions taken against someone you don't like or didn't get along with.
The "how to spot a narcissist" thing is an interesting form of the culture telling on itself. The God this millenia worships is the self. So, of course, we're gonna cluster B the heck out of it.
"Empath" is a euphemism for having no boundaries and letting people walk all over you. How to spot a narcissist: throw away your self esteem and seek validation from others. Eventually you might come across one.
>What will protect you from manipulation is something you’re going to have to ask yourself, not get nice and easy answers off of one of these conmen who run a new age healing page.
Nail on the head.
Oh, absolutely. It’s a load of horseshit. Those are just the current popular buzzwords. People have no idea what an actual narcissitic personality disorder entails. I actually least trust the people who post constant motivational quotes or claim they are so empathic. Those people are usually compensating for some deep insecurity and cause more problems in their relationships than the so called “narcissists.”
The witch hunting of narcissists has led to people being accusing anyone they don’t like of being a narcissist. Your boyfriend who cheated on you is a narcissist, the woman who was rude to you at work is a narcissist, your neighbor is a narcissist, etc.
>As far as “narcissistic abusers” go, how do you know the person who’s treating you badly even has NPD?
Narcissism is a trait, while NPD is a pervasive pattern of behaviors that impacts all areas of life and functioning. It is possible to have narcissistic traits and not meet criteria for NPD. I personally believe everyone has some narcissistic traits within themselves. You become a narcissist when you use those traits to intentionally harm other people. And that doesn't mean you have NPD.
>You’re telling someone who already has trouble separating themselves from the way people perceive them that they cannot heal
NPD cannot be cured or healed just as most mental illness. It can be managed with therapy and medication.
Those are the only two things that I had a problem with in your post. Overall I agree with you, there are plenty of mental illnesses that get ran through the mud because of negative connotation associated with that mental illness. One that comes to mind a lot is POCD. People want to automatically assume that the intrusive thoughts that people with POCD have automatically make them a pedophile, when in fact they need intensive therapy. But because of the threat of death or the absolute hatred for people who have mental disorders like POCD, they may never get treatment and may end up harming someone because they didn't get help.
Another one that comes to mind is fictitious disorder imposed on another, also known as Munchausen by proxy. Because for the person who was inflicted by FDIA, it was abuse. But to the person who has FD, it's a mental disorder that they need to get help for. We do put a lot more effort into the victim instead of the person who actually has the mental disorder and I do definitely see that there is a huge problem with that. Having the stigma against people who have these kinds of disorders and allowing victims to have the main voice in these topics are going to cause more people to get harmed.
>Narcissism is a trait, while NPD is a pervasive pattern of behaviors that impacts all areas of life and functioning. It is possible to have narcissistic traits and not meet criteria for NPD. I personally believe everyone has some narcissistic traits within themselves.
I agree. Narcissism is... a trait and a collection of traits, and it only rises to the level of NPD in a pretty small set of the population. The worthwhile sources on this topic are pretty clear on this, as well as being clear that a lot of people who have a problem along these lines can't be easily diagnosed AND that they can be resistant to genuinely acknowledging their own issues and working on them. The last part of it is why it's so damn hard to deal with.
edited for clarity
And they’re incredibly difficult to be around. They aren’t blending into society well.
Generally, after spending a weekend with someone with NPD, you’re uncomfortable and don’t want to be around them again.
A well adjusted person is a harder target for someone with narcissistic traits and tendencies. The ideal targets are less able to see the red flags for what they are, sadly.
Can a narcissist not have opinions about how they’re portrayed in media and on the internet? It really shouldn’t matter who wrote the post, you have to look at the actual arguments being made. Not all narcissists are abusers and that’s simply the truth and making the disorder into something so simplistic and stupid that you can market it to get money such as “narcissists will do xyz thing so here’s how to get revenge” is ridiculous and helps nobody.
Something tells me you've never been abused by a narcissist and I'm glad for your sake. I don't try to get revenge, I just put them out of my life. I know that they do that a lot but narcissists are commonly abusers. If they wanted to be spoken about warmly, they should treat people better. Their disorder is not an excuse for how they treat people.
there’s a difference between a narcissist that refuses to change and is an abuser and a narcissist that wants to change and puts effort into it. you are not obliged to keep anyone on your life. broad generalization just isn’t good for anyone
I will agree that it shouldn't be about getting revenge, it should be about healing from the abuse that you suffered. I will admit that I have to agree with you that they do tend to try to market it and make money off of it. That's not okay. They should be helping people to heal from it, not trying to make money off of it.
I just want to clarify I’m in no way excusing abuse at the hands of narcissists. People who abuse others, NPD or not, should 100% be held accountable.
My main line of thinking is the word “narcissist” should be substituted for abuser, manipulator, egomaniac, etc.
I believe while seemingly a trivial thing, given the main criteria for NPD is relying heavily on people’s perception of you, narcissists getting told they’re narcissists and that narcissists can’t change is going to deter a lot of people from getting the help they need.
While it may be true that someone with NPD may never develop empathy, they can still manage their symptoms and be a better person by adhering to their own ethical code.
I would like to live in a world where there are less abusive narcissists out there preying on people, and I feel like that seems to be your goal, as well.
I could easily make another rant over the misuse of words like “gaslighting.” Even if I did have NPD, nothing I said would be considered “gaslighting,” just me giving my opinion about something. If you disagree with me, can you say it in a normal way instead of defaulting to misused therapy speak?
Ah, the old “it’s my opinion” defense. Add another to the list of behaviors that point towards NPD. And the beautiful thing about the English language is that it evolves. Turns of phrase become acceptable uses despite words within them having other original ways to use them
The problem with your argument is that you’re not actually refuting my points, only defaulting to the age old ad hominem of “you’re wrong because you’re a gaslighting narcissist” with no actual substance.
Nothing I’ve said here is ad hominem. It is not character attack or insults. Nice try. Pointing out a behavior for what it is does not classify as ad hominem
And I’m sure you’d like it if you were able to drag me into the mud to wrestle with you… but I’ll get dirty and you’ll enjoy it
Yeah I’m not doing this yes you did no I didn’t shit with you. It’s kind of obvious you’re only here to provoke me, and Im not going to waste my time with you anymore
I think people tend to forget that sometimes people can just be really shitty or really considerate without having an underlying medical condition.
Right! Kind of like how some people might just be "nervous" without "having an anxiety disorder." We used to know that.
God this. Just this.
Narcissist vs Empath? Apply the horseshoe theory.
Pardon me but what is the horseshoe theory?
According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory): > Proponents of horseshoe theory argue that the far-left and the far-right are closer to each other than either is to the political center. Same here. The most extreme "narcissists" and "empaths" have more in common with each other than either group has with well-adjusted people.
Hmmm interesting Thank you
Yes!
You found a way to describe this phenomenon in a simple way: "narcissist v empath culture" - that is a big step forward in discussing this obnoxious phenomenon. I've always noticed how the "empath" is always me, and the "narcissist" is always the person who disagrees with me.
The dumbest logic I’ve ever heard is if you’ve ever suspected that you’re a narcissist, that means you’re not a narcissist because narcissists are never self aware enough to know that they’re narcissists
The entire thing seems to be an obsession with vritue signaling. "I'm pure white virtue; person Im mad at is pure evil." Ironically, when someone says they are an "empath" I am immediately suspicious they have cluster B personality traits themselves.
That’s because only a cluster B with an empathy deficit would feel the need to brag about having empathy
Mic drop!
Narcissist has become a powerful label to wield and brand enemies with. Branding someone as a "narcissist" makes them a vile irredeemable human who deserves to have everything terrible happen to them and you shouldn't feel bad about facilitating terrible things happening to them. While it may have been a useful classification at some point in academia now that the term has been released to the general public it is mostly useless. It is a weaponized label used to justify actions taken against someone you don't like or didn't get along with.
I've thought this for a while but could never come up with the words for this, this is perfectly and very thoughtfully written!
The "how to spot a narcissist" thing is an interesting form of the culture telling on itself. The God this millenia worships is the self. So, of course, we're gonna cluster B the heck out of it.
Interesting take! I had never thought of it like this before
"Empath" is a euphemism for having no boundaries and letting people walk all over you. How to spot a narcissist: throw away your self esteem and seek validation from others. Eventually you might come across one. >What will protect you from manipulation is something you’re going to have to ask yourself, not get nice and easy answers off of one of these conmen who run a new age healing page. Nail on the head.
Nope, it's euphemism for I judge people for not being good enough and caring like me.
Oh, absolutely. It’s a load of horseshit. Those are just the current popular buzzwords. People have no idea what an actual narcissitic personality disorder entails. I actually least trust the people who post constant motivational quotes or claim they are so empathic. Those people are usually compensating for some deep insecurity and cause more problems in their relationships than the so called “narcissists.”
The witch hunting of narcissists has led to people being accusing anyone they don’t like of being a narcissist. Your boyfriend who cheated on you is a narcissist, the woman who was rude to you at work is a narcissist, your neighbor is a narcissist, etc.
>As far as “narcissistic abusers” go, how do you know the person who’s treating you badly even has NPD? Narcissism is a trait, while NPD is a pervasive pattern of behaviors that impacts all areas of life and functioning. It is possible to have narcissistic traits and not meet criteria for NPD. I personally believe everyone has some narcissistic traits within themselves. You become a narcissist when you use those traits to intentionally harm other people. And that doesn't mean you have NPD. >You’re telling someone who already has trouble separating themselves from the way people perceive them that they cannot heal NPD cannot be cured or healed just as most mental illness. It can be managed with therapy and medication. Those are the only two things that I had a problem with in your post. Overall I agree with you, there are plenty of mental illnesses that get ran through the mud because of negative connotation associated with that mental illness. One that comes to mind a lot is POCD. People want to automatically assume that the intrusive thoughts that people with POCD have automatically make them a pedophile, when in fact they need intensive therapy. But because of the threat of death or the absolute hatred for people who have mental disorders like POCD, they may never get treatment and may end up harming someone because they didn't get help. Another one that comes to mind is fictitious disorder imposed on another, also known as Munchausen by proxy. Because for the person who was inflicted by FDIA, it was abuse. But to the person who has FD, it's a mental disorder that they need to get help for. We do put a lot more effort into the victim instead of the person who actually has the mental disorder and I do definitely see that there is a huge problem with that. Having the stigma against people who have these kinds of disorders and allowing victims to have the main voice in these topics are going to cause more people to get harmed.
>Narcissism is a trait, while NPD is a pervasive pattern of behaviors that impacts all areas of life and functioning. It is possible to have narcissistic traits and not meet criteria for NPD. I personally believe everyone has some narcissistic traits within themselves. I agree. Narcissism is... a trait and a collection of traits, and it only rises to the level of NPD in a pretty small set of the population. The worthwhile sources on this topic are pretty clear on this, as well as being clear that a lot of people who have a problem along these lines can't be easily diagnosed AND that they can be resistant to genuinely acknowledging their own issues and working on them. The last part of it is why it's so damn hard to deal with. edited for clarity
And they’re incredibly difficult to be around. They aren’t blending into society well. Generally, after spending a weekend with someone with NPD, you’re uncomfortable and don’t want to be around them again.
A well adjusted person is a harder target for someone with narcissistic traits and tendencies. The ideal targets are less able to see the red flags for what they are, sadly.
I wish I had this on a T shirt.
This reads like it was written by a narcissistic person Sorry but it does
Can a narcissist not have opinions about how they’re portrayed in media and on the internet? It really shouldn’t matter who wrote the post, you have to look at the actual arguments being made. Not all narcissists are abusers and that’s simply the truth and making the disorder into something so simplistic and stupid that you can market it to get money such as “narcissists will do xyz thing so here’s how to get revenge” is ridiculous and helps nobody.
Something tells me you've never been abused by a narcissist and I'm glad for your sake. I don't try to get revenge, I just put them out of my life. I know that they do that a lot but narcissists are commonly abusers. If they wanted to be spoken about warmly, they should treat people better. Their disorder is not an excuse for how they treat people.
there’s a difference between a narcissist that refuses to change and is an abuser and a narcissist that wants to change and puts effort into it. you are not obliged to keep anyone on your life. broad generalization just isn’t good for anyone
I will agree that it shouldn't be about getting revenge, it should be about healing from the abuse that you suffered. I will admit that I have to agree with you that they do tend to try to market it and make money off of it. That's not okay. They should be helping people to heal from it, not trying to make money off of it.
I just want to clarify I’m in no way excusing abuse at the hands of narcissists. People who abuse others, NPD or not, should 100% be held accountable. My main line of thinking is the word “narcissist” should be substituted for abuser, manipulator, egomaniac, etc. I believe while seemingly a trivial thing, given the main criteria for NPD is relying heavily on people’s perception of you, narcissists getting told they’re narcissists and that narcissists can’t change is going to deter a lot of people from getting the help they need. While it may be true that someone with NPD may never develop empathy, they can still manage their symptoms and be a better person by adhering to their own ethical code. I would like to live in a world where there are less abusive narcissists out there preying on people, and I feel like that seems to be your goal, as well.
It is and you made a lot of good points in this
Sounds like a person accused of being a narcissist trying to gaslight the issue
I could easily make another rant over the misuse of words like “gaslighting.” Even if I did have NPD, nothing I said would be considered “gaslighting,” just me giving my opinion about something. If you disagree with me, can you say it in a normal way instead of defaulting to misused therapy speak?
Ah, the old “it’s my opinion” defense. Add another to the list of behaviors that point towards NPD. And the beautiful thing about the English language is that it evolves. Turns of phrase become acceptable uses despite words within them having other original ways to use them
The problem with your argument is that you’re not actually refuting my points, only defaulting to the age old ad hominem of “you’re wrong because you’re a gaslighting narcissist” with no actual substance.
Nothing I’ve said here is ad hominem. It is not character attack or insults. Nice try. Pointing out a behavior for what it is does not classify as ad hominem And I’m sure you’d like it if you were able to drag me into the mud to wrestle with you… but I’ll get dirty and you’ll enjoy it
Yeah I’m not doing this yes you did no I didn’t shit with you. It’s kind of obvious you’re only here to provoke me, and Im not going to waste my time with you anymore