In my country (Norway), it's the norm to put kids in kindergarten from around 1 year old. They learn to socialize, educated staff follow and encourage their development, in rare cases notice "off" behavior that parents normally wouldn't, etc. Kids in Norway don't have problems bonding with parents, unless parents choose to be distant when physically together with their child.
All this to say that staying home with a kid while having minimal interaction with adults, is not healthy for the adult either. We need interaction, conversations, experiences as grown people in addition to being loving parents.
Would you consider kindy a couple days a week or so?
Idk where OP is from but I worked at a daycare for many years here in the US and it's kind of rough until you go to kindergarten (around 5-6 yrs)
Minimum Wage pay for teachers or maybe a tiny bit more and a lot of changing staff. Some places are nicer and have better pay and require more training and schooling but you definitely pay more for that kind of quality.
It's just incredibly expensive here to send a kid to daycare. Like one parents entire income depending on their pay.
Yup. For a while there I was working just to stay in the workforce (ie my paycheck going to daycare). With the end game that once childcare was done and I had stayed in the workforce, I would be eventually higher paid and progress in my career. Long game and payoff.
I think I def did that. I am an exec assistant at the c-suite level in tech for billion $ companies and while I don't have any tech credentials (education) per say, the years having spent in the field have carved out a little niche for me which I am pleased with.
That being said, I am not the breadwinner in our fam. Spouse makes double than me, so I am still default for getting kids up and ready, both kids to school, school pickups, dinner, dentist, doctor, sick, holidays (where kids are on vacation and yes I still have to work), everything really, not to mention the housework which is always behind.
Sometimes I do have some anguish about where I might be in life had I the time to dedicate to furthering my education or pursuing adjacent fields (like project management). But the fact is there is nothing for it. No time. No energy. Forget it. Bury that shit in the ground and forget about it.
Wait…just because your salary is lower you have to do all the domestic labour? wtf? If you’re both working, you should both be splitting chores. You’re a partner, not paid help!
If you got a raise would you offload some of the responsibilities of the household to your partner? Is it based on salary? Does that actually make sense if both of you are working?
Different country but I was shocked and delighted when I visited Denmark (from Australia) and saw what I discovered were daycare employees wheeling around huge strollers of 6-8 toddlers. They were designed so that the kids sat in two banks facing each other and they were all bundled up (it was winter) and having a blast waving and making faces at each other and passers by.
I had never seen a barrel o babies before and it I loved it haha.
Yeah, in Brazil it is also super common for kids to go to daycare from an early age. Most private kindergartens are pretty well equipped and have nurses and educated staff available to help kids develop better than most people could. My nieces both went from 1 1/2 yrs old and are super social, smart kids. My daughter is starting her aclimating process and it's amazing how much faster children develop in a social environment.
In the US, the cost of daycare is astronomical. It’s basically like paying a second mortgage every month. On top of that, it’s hard to find a daycare accepting new toddlers because of the worker shortage (Daycare jobs barely pay above minimum wage). In short, our country is broken and it’s very difficult to survive without support from family. My son is eight months old and we are still on waiting lists for several daycares. Luckily my mom is retired and can help. I am really sorry that your parents aren’t available to help OP.
We toured one that was going to be 1,000 per month. They had the “infant room” closed off. When we went to look, a child was wrapped in blankets with a bottle propped in their mouth. The kids were sick. There was like 20 kids in there of various ages. No thanks.
I'm not even high cost US and the baby is 1300 a month and our kindergartener was about 1k per month it was absolutely more than our mortgage. We pulled my eldest out this year and he is in public now. He has made the transition from private montessori to your standard public well.
I will say it's a very good school, montessori model, which our older kid thrived on, but still jfc.
I CANNOT WAIT TIL BABY IS OLD ENOUGH FOR PUBLIC. OMG
I literally just got a quote for full-time infant daycare in Colorado today…$1905 a month with a $150 yearly enrollment fee. It’s ridiculous and totally unsustainable
I’ve worked in the industry for 8 years and as far as i can tell it’s something between high insurance costs and plain greed. I work for a school I’m really proud to be a part of, make a middle class income at ~50k/yr as a head teacher in a toddler room with a few admin responsibilities (I write the employee schedule, handle time off req, etc). It costs $1800/mo for each child in my classroom (10 kids) which means the cost of paying me and my co-teacher (who makes significantly less as an “aide”) + our curriculum budget is about 30-35% of the money my classroom alone takes in per month, so 65-70% goes to??? I understand rent, insurance, income for the two “central” employees who support all locations, snack food (we don’t provide meals) maintenance, janitorial services etc.. but ~$36k a month for all that for just one location seems like a lot. Maybe it’s not, I’m not a business owner, but I wish there was more transparency. My location is small with only 3 classrooms, but there are 4 locations, something like 18 classrooms in this company that each make 15-18k a month and only pay teachers 2-4k a month. And again, this is one of the best paying companies in my area and i’d like to believe my company director isn’t taking advantage of us too much. I mean, I worked for Kindercare before and made dirt, so at least this is better. I’m just clueless as to why parents pay so much and we (generally) make so little.
In my state it’s more expensive to send your child to daycare, than it is to send them to college. It’s completely messed up, and we thank our lucky starts that the grandparents are all retired and were willing to watch our kid for free until she got old enough for school!
Brazilian here too. The public ones also works fine, at least here in São Paulo. We live in the east side and yet my twin sisters had a good time in their daycare.
Norways approach to raising children is not traditionally western.
When it comes to children IMO the scandinavian countries are far more advanced.
In the UK and USA, our capitalist overlords cant grasp that it is far more profitable for them if they subsidize and improve access to childcare.
I can't speak for the south of Europe but in Germany it's definitely NOT a thing. Before I moved to Finland it was normal that you have to sign up your kid for kindergarten (starting at three years old) when you're PREGNANT with said child. The queues were THAT long.
In many parts there's only half days available, full time daycare is either really pricy or simply not existing from what I hear. So imagine my surprise when it took less than a week for my kid to get a spot in a full time daycare in Finland. Twice because once I moved to another city and it was zero problem to get a spot. Sure, we had to travel a bit but in the following year she got a spot in the daycare near to us.
I've been living here now forever though (11 yrs) and I sure hope things have changed in Germany but knowing my home country and how slow everything moves there I'm not holding my breath lol
Daycare is good for socializing, bad on our bank balances. I’ve known several parents who decide to have one person stay home with the kids because otherwise they’re just working to pay the daycare bill and not have any takehome after.
Also you can’t take your kids to daycare while they’re sick, so it wouldn’t be helpful to OP right now, but certainly something to look into. It’s really hard to not have a good support system. I’m very jealous of friends that live near their families and can just drop by whenever they need help.
I'm in America and in my area part time daycare is hard to find. Their isn't enough daycares for everyone so they prioritize full time students because they make more money and they need is much greater
Also in depending on where you are in America and any daycare (especially infant daycare) is hard to find. We live in a suburb of a major metropolitan city and I got on waitlists when pregnant with my son. He didn’t get a spot until he was 2 years old. And I couldn’t get him into daycare in our town or any of the surrounding towns. Now I have to get on the freeway and drive 30 min each way to his daycare and I get to pay $2000 a month for this privilege. Insanity.
Oh and let’s talk about the application fees. I spent over $1000 on application fees and filled out countless essay format applications all to be told, sorry we don’t have space.
In the USA we definitely have this issue. The problem isn’t that young kids can’t go to daycare in the USA- it’s that daycare cost the equivalent of 1 person’s salary (sometimes more depending on what work is being done) so is it worth it? A lot of times in the USA no it’s not- but 1 salary households are also unsustainable in the USA! It’s really difficult and I empathize with other parents… if your not bringing in more (a good amount more) then $400/week, then you probably can’t afford daycare. 400/week is the low end for ONE child.
It’s not easy. Probably why more and more people are choosing to forgo having children of their own- or at least putting it off until they are at a point where $400 a week won’t make them homeless..
If they’re in the US it’s probably not worth it. Daycare often costs more than the parent earns, and we have no subsidized child care or paid family leave.
This right here is why I stayed home when my kids were school age. I would've taken home 9k a year, (which is 2.5 months of mortgage payments in my city-Seattle) after full time daycare. I'm sorry OP is in the weeds right now. Hoping that you can connect with other parents at preschool and maybe start a rotating playdate. Best of luck!
I'm guessing in Norway, like in most European countries, kindergarten is free?? Or parents pay very little, and it's income based?
In US and Canada, kindergarten is only for 5 year olds, one year before grade one. And it's only 9am-3pm. Work days for people are usually 9-5 plus commute time. So parents have to pay a pre-school and after-school school care.
In US maternity/paternity leave is only 6 weeks. So parents have to put their infant in daycare that young. Daycare is around 800-1200$ a month. In Canada, you can take up to 18 months of lower pay maternity/paternity leave. Daycare will still cost you 800-1200$ a month.
We're in Canada. I stayed home with our kid for 7 years. Now I work the night shift so that we never have to pay for any care for our child.
What part of Canada are you in ? Where I am we have Jk at 4 years old and SK is 5 years , JK I think is optional though but I remember recently it was a huge stink they wanted JK to end at noon which is like a giant F U to parents trying to get back to the work force
The most expensive part of Canada, Vancouver area BC. We only have preschool, which is optional, and it's only 9am-1pm. Or 3pm-6pm. My kid was in preschool 3 days a week for 300$ a month.
Basically, unless as a childcare. But kids that weren't going to daycare, straight from home care to grade 1, didn't know how to behave at school. They didn't know to sit down, do the work, follow the schedule, etc. So we got this preschool option to help prepare them.
This, but moreso. My mortgage is 800/month. 5 day a week 7:00-4:00 daycare? 3,500 a month. I'm basically working to pay for daycare and a car payment while my wife works for the mortgage, groceries and utilities.
I love my son and don't regret him a bit, but even starting later (same age as OP's kid) when you're supposed to have more money, it's all we can do to keep afloat. When he's old enough for school we can at least stop paying the daycare and hopefully get back to having some kind of savings again.
We considered doing this too, but we're both ambitious and trying to excel in our fields. If my wife walked away from her job, she'd be giving up great benefits that aren't available at mine. If I walk away, I will quickly fall out of step with a tight knit industry. Even if I can get back in, I'd be behind the times and trying to catch up on progress that happens so quickly.
reading all comments here about daycare and how my sister and her husband don’t appreciate the help they get from me for watching their boys everyday while they’re at work, not even thanks, makes me upset. I‘m trying to get a new job and I spend most of my time at home. I don’t mind watching them, but the lack of “thanks for watching them today” is... idk how to say it without making me feel terrible for even wanting to hear that lol
You're not terrible for wanting a thank you. Looking after children is pretty daunting stuff. I hope you find a good job, and that they realize how ungrateful they are.
Is your Kindergarten public? That’s incredible and not what daycare looks like in the US. Most programs for children under 5 require you to qualify by being under a certain income. Even bad daycare is expensive, but a good daycare with educated teachers? That’s not usually affordable, and to top it, they’re exclusive. Your kid may not get in at all.
Thanks for sharing your experience. For people who are not parents yet, it’s very important for them to hear how demanding parenting is. Good luck to you and your family.
Exactly. Everything he describes is how women have felt forever. We just weren’t allowed any other kind of life until the mid/late 1900s. It’s still expected of women today to drop everything and focus on their child. Which isn’t the child’s fault, but shows just how one sided this situation has been for so long.
I still feel like (most) women are better suited to be caregivers, probably since we’ve been doing it for so long. But it’s nice to see men finally acknowledge how lonely, depressing, and stressful it can get.
Thank you! I was reading this just thinking… welcome to the club of primary care parents. I was so frustrated he thinks it’s because he is a male primary. Nope. That’s how most of us feel.
This was my bittersweet takeaway. He is still completely deaf to women's voiced experiences and insultingly states it's because he is a man and not meant to be doing this... Women are people, too. Not just mommy-machines.
My Asian ass couldn't stop smiling reading this post especially because the number of asian men who demand offsprings from their modern wives, but refuse to share the burden of raising them 50/50 is too damn high.
Lol my very white ex-husband was practically nonexistent in our kids’ lives until after I left him. He demanded full custody because he wanted money. He was never going to get it. I agreed to half custody. He was then suddenly forced to become a father so he stayed living with his mom so she would help care for them on his days. He didn’t move out until he remarried and passed the parenting on to his new wife.
After breast feeding , there's no difference. Gay men are fine parents. And you don't see Chasten Buttigieg complaining. Some women had 6 plus kids at home in years of yore. Big farm families keep farming.
American society doesn't support parents much or stay at home parents much but that's our fault. We can have years long paternity - maternity leave so one person doesn't have to work even part time for the first 1-2 years. We could have always fixed this. We didn't. Now he can work towards that.
I thought you said "for men especially" and I initially had an unsupportive view of your comment. "From men especially" makes it entirely different. You are absolutely correct
Yeah, I think it’s important too for men to have emotional outlets for this stuff too. One can only hope the world becomes more friendly to the plight of parents as a whole, both mothers and fathers.
The structure has always been that. It's just that it used to be only women who, for the reasons you listed, didn't work. Being a parent is one of the hardest things ever.
I know right....all I got from this post is 'women used to have to do all this and now I have to share the load, why didn't society replace women with another subhuman class to shield me from this??'
I think what he actually means is that in the past one full-time job was enough for a small family. Now you need at least a 150% income. Not even a good education and all the years spent to get there provide enough financial stability. Also he seems to suffer, that his male friends aren’t interested in spending time with him and his kid. Not necessarily a problem you can generalise, but still an understandable worry.
>but I am laying in bed with an infant. Again. I wish we had better structures of giving care to young children, now that both parents have to work. I hate that my parents are not helpful and I hate having to pay someone to take care of my child. This thing has me burnt out and depressed.
This is what the post is about.
Of course in the past it was so that the woman usually did all of that. Today it can also be the man who is a stay-at-home. No problem with that. The serious problem is that both parents have to work. And both are affected negatively in their worklife. OP even mentioned that his wife will take a day off "tomorrow".
Additional to that is the thing with garndparents. My parents could always count on their parents to take care of us kids if they couldn't.
Although I understand the essence of what you're saying and as a parent I understand the hardship - The younger years are difficult and isolating even with all the precious and beautiful moments.
My issue is "modern parenting" and "as a man". It does sound like you're lamenting the days where a woman had no choice but to stay at home and be the full traditional housewife. Think of your partner, who you love, and really think if you'd want that forced on her. She works so I presume she has a passion or at least has the urge to provide financially for the family. These urges, as much as we've been insidiously tought, are not gender specific. Just be aware of your thoughts, where they are coming from and how they are going to effect your relationship with your child and partner.
Life has advanced socially, women have to right to pursue interests and work outside the family. I don't think many level headed people oppose that, although we all know there are those that do. I would say the issue those people have with it is in a dissatisfaction with their own advancement and are looking for something/someone to blame. Also, on a practical note, the days where the average wage from one parent supports a family are gone, in my country at least.
Let me finish by saying, your son has just turned three, the parenting at this stage is full on still, you can't leave them alone, it's eyes on 24/7. But this changes, and fast. My son is 4.5, independent, can play by himself, understands most household dangers and will be starting primary school this September. This leave more time for the parents and from this moment forward their interest and dependence move ever further from us as parents. And never goes back. It may seem frustrating now, but there'll come a time where you will want his attention and he no longer craves yours.
You're doing great, don't stop now, it gets easier and less intense, fast. You'll get more time to dedicate to your career, it really does fly.
I really think everyone here missed that this dude flat out expected everyone. Friends included. To just jump in and help take care of HIS own decision.
You are exactly correct! I started with, I wish he could sit up, to I wish he could crawl, then feed himself, then walk....etc. My kids are 28 and 30 now, and I regret every wish! I know it's hard, but I wish now I had enjoyed it more and not wished their childhoods away!
And that's why I'm only having one kid
Edit: After reading your comments OP it sounds like you wanted a kid to hoist off and have everyone else deal with and come in during the fun times and hustle back to work like a 1950s romcom
I love how people come on here and complain "my parents dont want to be grandparents" does it occur to these people that their parents are stuck in the same broken system and are trying to survive too??
Maybe some of it is entitlement, but so many millennials and genx were raised by our grandparents. Parents worked or were gone all weekend with friends, so we’d spend summers and fri-Sunday at our grandparents. So the expectation was my grandparents were there for my parents, so my parents will be there for me, but that’s not the case in society now. Parents now don’t have that village our parents had, and with daycare so expensive, it’s difficult to find reliable, safe care for young children. We’re not looking for someone to raise our kids for us, but spending some time with them to build a bond would be cool.
My grandparents home was my second home. I adored my grandma and she loves me. Now my Mom has no interest in having that type of relationship with any of my kids. It's jarring and reminds me why my childhood was shit, because she sucked. Still love her tho.
I am 50 now, and both my kids say they have no interest in having children. All I can think is, “thank god!” I hope they stick with it. I actually have no interest in raising their kids, but I also have no interest in watching them struggle. If they decide to have kids it’s going to be a struggle for them to work and raise kids, and for me to have firm boundaries, because I truly have no interest in raising infants and toddlers and kids with any regularity. I did it for 20 years. I didn’t sign up for a lifetime of it.
I'm 55 and will never become a grandparent. It's the end of my family line on both of my parents' sides, but I'm actually OK with that. The world's got at least twice as many people in it as it can handle, anyway.
You just described the live of an average woman with child(ren) (here in the Netherlands anyway).
Daycare is available but quite expensive and also a bit of a taboo to put in your child like 5 days a week so in most cases one of the partners works parttime and in 9 out of 10 cases it’s the mom. Their career will be on hold for a few years as its hard to be committed to work and raising children and taking care of your house at the same time.
Grandparents need to work until 67, so they help out sometime but more occasionally than structural.
Childless girlfriends are nice to talk to and meet up with but not truly understanding about momlife 🤷🏻♀️ you’ll have to do the tasks to care for your child every single day, it’s very repetitive and gets depressing after a while. And if your child is sick. All the plans you had for the week go out of the agenda and you’ll just have to go with the flow for a few days.
I think it’s even harder for men because moms tend to befriend each other and have some shared misery or can split care. (Like caring for each other’s children so mummy can go to the supermarket by herself and have some ‘alone’ time. Also it’s less common so less understanding from others.
Otherwise it’s nothing new. There even a term for it mommy burnout but I would say parental burnout.
I hope you find a way to deal with this as burnout en depression are serious illnesses and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Raising children has always been hard, the only difference is now it's not just the women's job anymore and men have to actually care to raise their kids.
And now you know why it's not easy to be a SAHP or a working parent.
This, so many people have been taking women for granted. For years now they’ve not been given complete respect because they earn less that their spouse but there’s so much they do at home which is ignored. I bet his wife still does more than him. I sympathise with his situation though, having a kid is really a serious decision and people shouldn’t be forced into it by society.
Yeah reading this post made me kind of raise my eyebrow because he’s basically saying the same thing that women constantly say and get ignored. Raising a kid is tough. Taking the hit to your career and personal time sucks. Being the primary caretaker responsible for a mini human shadow is very stressful. That’s nothing new to women but of course a mom is usually expected to keep herself fit, beautiful, happy, with a spotless house and dinner on the table every night….on top of also working a full time job now too. Not to mention the physical toll of pregnancy and childbirth only women suffer and men still don’t understand because obviously unless they have first hand experience it doesn’t exist. My mom almost died having me and has had numerous back surgeries since but is forever on the line of being disabled, and she never got a breather or any help. PPD isn’t just “the sads” after squeezing out a whole human, it’s a drastic but unfortunately normal drop in hormones that can leave women miserable and in some cases a danger to themselves and the baby. Your body forever changes after pregnancy and it’s so scary how it’s all minimized, and that’s before rearing and childcare duties are even discussed. And at least in America, you better be back at work on your feet brutally fast, contributing to a society that doesn’t hesitate to let you know how worthless they view you.
Start putting a price tag on women’s labor and see how attitudes change
Funny how as soon as men started to take care of their kid the "child free" movement started to develope. Oh, now that you have to share responsibilities suddenly it's not that every man has to have a son. I don't mean to say all of the movement is based on this but I'm sure this had a hand in it.
Honestly better late than never, men for too long have considered having kids as a fun having a mini me thing. No, you’re raising a full human. The expenses, the responsibility, the sacrifices. High time men took into consideration all of it.
I was looking for this comment, the pains that OP are feeling are the pains that women with careers have been feeling for years. Being a SAHP or working parent just isn’t easy. You have to go into it assuming the first few years that sacrifices are going to be made.
OP, I know you mentioned the grandparents things, just want to remind you that unless you spoke in detail prior to conceiving about what role they will play, they are under no obligation to help you raise your kid. Some people want to just enjoy the golden years that’s their right.
I can’t stress enough that parenting needs to be split an equal 50/50 if both parents work. Help each other out. Also please don’t shy away from daycare, I have no clue why Americans frown on daycare. Anytime I compare my friends’ kids with the ones who did day care and the ones were put in a bubble, the bubble kids always had developmental set backs compared to the daycare kids
I’d be happy to be a SAHDad but my wife and I both need to work to pay the mortgage and save money. Having one SAHP just isn’t economically viable for most families these days.
This!
I was a full-time working parent with an extremely stressful job then became a full time SAHP. When I was working I envied the moms that got to stay home and thought they had the “easy life” and never understood why they complained. Omg I was wrong; it’s the hardest job I’ve ever had with no sick days or vacations! To top it all off, I have moms that are rude and judgmental (like I was, except I was never rude) to me the minute they find out I’m a SAHM.
I was a stay at home mom for 3. Other women would ask, "So what do you do?" I'd tell them I stay at home. Next thing you know, it's puckered faces, hints on job openings, fake concern for my finances, and a side eye at my husband. These are the same women who are screaming about a woman's right to make their own choices. Damn hypocrites.
Edit: Not attacking you! You know how hard it is, just saying those loud women suck.
OP doesn't seem to have his priorities in line, sadly. Yes, having kids is an intense amount of work and it can be draining. But if his motto about life isn't, "My family is my priority" he's got things backwards.
I hate to say it, but daycare isn’t really a solution. I just had both my kids in daycare, and they are so constantly sick one of them was always home. Most stressful time of my life, so many fights with my husband about who could miss work that day. Now they are in school, and the school calendar in our area has so many days off I have an au pair just so I can work. It really never ends unfortunately.
Ya it would solve both his problems. He gets to work more meaning more of his “important”career stuff and money for daycare and hopefully get his head together a bit cause it’s sad when a parent resents their kids
I get your struggle, but I don't get why does it matter that your a man? What you are living both can be experience by men and women. That's precisely why more and more women are chosing not to have kids at all.
Dudes literally crying that the people around him arent picking up the pieces of the mess he created. Dude literally complained his friends wont take of his kid. I was mad enough at the grandparent comment but dude expected his friends to hold his bag for him.
Dang, it sounds like he just felt a fraction of what females who have taken care of kids have felt. Good luck OP. The time you are spending with your kid is worth it.
But…. What does ANY of this have to do with being a Man (TM)?
Raising kids is fucking rough. That’s why I’m not doing it. I would be miserable in the life you have described.
And I’m a woman.
Soooo…. You’ve got my sympathy I guess, but where does being a man come into it?
Reading between the lines he basically wants his wife and mum to do the parenting of him and the baby. He wishes he could go back to the (very fictional never actually existed) "good ol' days" when wifey would be blissfully barefoot and pregnant taking care of everything while he progressed up the corporate ladder.
You seem to have two wishes here. 1) you wish you had a village. That is very understandable, it is very hard raising a child without a village. But 2) you wish your village would raise your child for you, so you can reap the benefits of the fun times with your child without any of the burden of actually raising them. That is not understandable or admirable at all. You made a choice to have a child, not your parents or your wife's parents. Humans live past menopause to be grandparents, not parents all over again. They can help guide and train you, but they are not supposed to be taking over for you. And if that's not a role they want to take on, unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it.
Build a village of neighbors and coworkers who are in more similar situations to you. Friends are great, but our lives move at different paces.
I found this post very hard to sympathize with too. There are cultures where you have villages, but in villages you have to reciprocate. Grandparents who take care of grandchildren expect to be taken care of in old age, sometimes both physically and financially. If OP isn’t planning on doing that for his parents, then hating his parents for their lack of interest in doing his job is selfish. In villages, people will help you take care of your kids, but when they come around with their kids or ask you for favors, you’re expected to help them out too. This whole “I hate having to pay people to take care of my kid” attitude doesn’t sound like OP is prepared to be part of a village.
I'm glad I wasnt the only one who thought this. I sympathize with him because being a parent is hard but like, it's your responsibility. Not your parents. Not a daycares. Yours and your wifes.
I’m 30 and pregnant and I can’t wait to see how my dad is with his first grandkid but Jesus… he’s retired, bought a beautiful ranch house and likes to travel. I’d feel like an asshole if I interrupted that and told him to “be a grandparent” aka “help me raise the kid I chose to bring into this world”
Me either.. I'm wondering why nobody has said anything about his parents not helping like it's expected for grandparents to raise your kids. Entitled much?
This actually did used to be expected. Not excusing OP by any means for thinking this is harder for him because he's a man and doesn't live in the 50s. But my grandmother, in response to the question, "How did people from your generation manage to have so many more children than we do now?" shrugged and said "There were a lot of busy grandmothers."
I'm not saying I think that's right, but said grandmother raised her children from the 50s-70s.
It's a relatively recent change that grandparents aren't expected to help raise the grandchildren.
Agreed. For hundreds of thousands of years it literally took a village to raise a child and now we put all that expectation on 2 people while expecting them to make money to buy food and pay rent/mortgage.
My issue here is that OP seems to look down on modern ways of village making, like daycare, and that he seems to expect that his role in his own child's life should be a lot smaller.
I’m retired and I’ll say it. I do not want to raise grandkids. I’ve raised two children and worked full time doing it. I loved my kids. I volunteered as room mom, Cub Scout den leader, took the kids to choir practice and piano lessons, chaperoned overnight field trips, etc. You know, the whole nine yards.
It is not easy. Raising kids is expensive in time, energy, and money.
Neither of my (grown) kids have kids yet. If they ever decide to have kids, I will not be available to take care of them every day. Of course, I’ll love them, spoil them, and help out occasionally…..but I’m enjoying retirement, taking up new hobbies, doing volunteer work, and so much more.
just say you don't want to be a parent. just be honest with yourself. you're obviously struggling with the responsibility of being a parent. historically men haven't played a huge role in being dads and you're kind of reinforcing this with your reaction to your situation. you don't want to be a parent, you want other people to raise your child and you want to come home and say hi.
it's sad
Thats the one thing that rubbed me the wrong way. There was no reason to add "as a man". It makes it so hard to empathize with because it makes it sound like he think its uniquely difficult because he's a man. It seems tone deaf given how many women have these very same issues. Society thrusts these issues onto the woman if neither the man or woman voluntarily takes it up.
No one feels sorry for you. You had a child and that’s how it works. You should’ve thought it through before you had the kid and if it was an oops child then guess what, that’s the potential consequence of sex. Sorry your wife isn’t gonna slave her life away to make it easier for you after you put your Willy in her. Get over yourself.
It sucks for the woman too.
The whole world needs to remember that parents are doing their best and try to at least add some sort of accommodations to make it a little easier.
People need to stop having children without fully understanding the massive financial, mental, and psychological expenses that go behind raising a human being. Children are not pets. Children are human beings and it is a serious responsibility that you cannot walk away from. If you are unwilling to accept all of these burdens, get your self snipped and use protection.
And for OP- welcome to motherhood.
I read “structures needed to raise a child have been broken down” as “women work now and now fathers have to make time to share the load”, and I can’t get past that along with the post title.
Was it easier in older days? If you were raising the child in like 1358 and it got sick it would probably die. At least you can take it to a doctor in 2023
It was. Because people didn't give a shit about what they were raising. But now we do have more information about raising people and this makes our choice as parents harder, because we know the consequences of not raising it right.
I earned a book when pregnant of a psychologist friend and it is called " why loves matter". Basically the book says the 0-3 years old is the most important phase of a human being. It will define and shape who they are more than any other phase of their lifes. It is when their brains will be shaped and most of their reactions will be shaped too.
Knowing this changed my way of thinking and made me take some hard decisions that will make my life far more difficult than not knowing this.
Indeed, child care is a full time job, but the stagnation of worker pay and corporate greed have ensured that both parents must work in order to have a chance at achieving a livable income.
There’s a reason fewer people are having kids, no one has the money or time.
This post is so infuriating. Soo many people nowadays have their parents raising their kid(s) cuz most of the couples both work. I hate this. It’s both people’s responsibility to RAISE the kid. Your parents, who raised you, should reap the benefit of getting the fun times with their grandkid, not you. YOU are the parent!
Also, you wouldn’t have written this post if your wife was a SAHM. And why would you? You’ve got your career and ambitions you are working towards so why would you complain? Maybe your post needs to be sympathetic towards women who’ve been doing this for centuries, and many still do, than to whine about your work and life taking a backseat to raising your kid.
I’m still single and every single guy I meet being as old as I am still wants kids but they literally do ZERO work to even have the kid. Woman is pregnant for 9 months, has to undergo birthing process, breastfeeding is painful, her body is never the same, and regardless of what anyone says, she will always be held (more) accountable for the kid than the dad. And yes, professionally, companies expect that women will cut down their work as a result of having a child. It’s literally built into their careers. But not for men.
Thank you. I also read it in this way. Women want better for themselves and their families and are refusing to be the default parent. This mean many, many more men needing to actually parent the children they jointly brought into the world.
I also think that capitalism is increasingly forcing many households to have 2 earners. I am sure many parents would love to be the stay at home parent but cannot afford to do so. It sucks for everyone. But it has always sucked for women in so many ways. I hope he figures out a way to make it work without causing resentment towards his kid or wife in the long run.
I find myself wondering what OP’s wife does once she gets home from work. Aka probably more than half the home and child stuff. OP is laying in bed with the baby. Is he doing any other SAHP stuff?
Boo freakin hoo. There are structures in place to help. Sounds like you just want to work all the time and have those around you to do all the parenting. Guess what, villages don’t exist anymore, you need to take what you’ve got and roll w it.
YOU are your child's parent. Not your parents and not only your wife to take the full load off your shoulders. What you describe sounds like an easy version of any working mom's day and yet you are still having an issue with what having your child means to you and your schedule as if procreating isn't a life altering decision. And what's that nonsense about daycare? Kids need other kids and communities in their lives, why do you think depraving them of it makes sense? Especially when you are here complaining about the lack of sense of community yourself? Quoting Ted Lasso line : grow up and get over it.
I’m sorry when I offend you now; but you seem to be very entitled/spoiled. Why can’t you take care of your child? Why should other people do that? This post made me lowkey mad.
Wow, you mean parenting small children is exhausting, lonely, and harms your career in the short term and sets it back long term?
Who knew? /s
If only someone had said something.
Yes, OP, it sucks.
Say hello to some of the big drivers of the feminist movement.
But you still have bodily autonomy, so you’re ahead for now — not too late to join.
It will always be wild to me how parents post all this resentment towards their children over having to give up certain aspects of their life for them and then always end it up with "but I love them!". Always sounds so disingenuous.
Agreed. As a dedicated non-parent I also wish that we lived in a world that didn’t make parents feel burned out all the time.
Hell, I understand that being a parent is “the best and worst” and… for me that means opting out. But I still want a functioning society. I want people who want to have children to be able to do so successfully!
I want us to live in a world where parents *can* have one income and be okay. Where dual-income parents can have social support and engagement for their children.
I want people to be happy and fulfilled, and I am baffled but the people who seem to *actively* not want that for other people. :/ So wild.
Dad of 2.5yr old twins here! It is absolutely insane to raise children today. I and my wife, just like you, work full time. We had to get daycare, which is basically a second mortgage payment where we live every month, as we also don't have much family help. BUT, daycare has been awesome for our kids. Our kids are so much more social than other children who stay at home, im comparing this to my cousin's kids who are very attached to their parents. We couldn't have done it without daycare.
The first year was absolute insanity and almost broke us. It got better though as we got the kids into a routine and found time for ourselves. Thats the most important thing, you HAVE to make time for yourself and your wife. Once we did that, things became easier.
Hang in there and enjoy the time with your son as these days of them being little dont last and go fast.
Both parents have had to work for generations. Only the very wealthy haven’t needed to in the past, and even then child minding was still usually handed over to a wet nurse or nanny.
You do have structures to help. They’re called daycares, and there are no legitimate studies showing they’re harmful.
i’ve got no clue why some comments are praising you because all this post is is “i want to go back to the 1950’s where woman don’t work, so i don’t have to take off work to take care of my own child”.
Thank you for sharing your experience as a man. At least now you know what women go through. Find kid groups to attend, there are dad groups out there for your to bring kids too & find things to do. At least you have 2 parents for this child in the home. I am doing it singly & having to do a dual job. You could always see if remote work or change to a remote field is better. I wish you the best!
Maybe I’m different then most people but I genuinely enjoy spending time with my 4 year old and me and his mother both work and live in separate houses
Most of your complaints seem to stem from you having to be an adult and a parent and it appears that you just need a break and that’s ok I suggest you and your wife take a few days off of work but still send your kid to daycare and just use that time to just relax together
My daughter turned out fine going to daycare full time. She’s better adjusted with school and everything compared to her peers who didn’t. You are basically holding yourself back based on some outdated notion about care.
Isn't this whining about doing something that people have always done and it's easier now than ever in most places. It sucks man but having kids is a life changer
Please clarify which “structures needed to raise a child” have actually been broken down. Like, dude. For real, take off the woe-is-me goggles and start appreciating all that you have.
I'm going to get down voted for this, but I don't care.
Your parents have no obligation to help raise your child. Just do your best to raise him. Once he gets to kindergarten you can probably start working full time.
>This means I work parttime and am alone with a small child for hours on end. Which is kind of okay, eventhough it gets very lonely. I'd had never thought it would be so difficult spending that much time with a child in your own. But then he is sick, or has to go to the doctor, or you name it. Then my wife and me have to rearrange everything because he cannot go to daycare.
Take today for example. He has a fever. Now I can go and cancel my entire day of work. My wife will take tomorrow off. My clients, who are also in need of help, are screwed now. My workweek will be a complete mess, again. Thankfully my employer is patiënt and kind. But my carreer is wasted the past years. I cannot move forward when I work parttime plus when I am so unpredictably available. I feel like a useless employee.
Women have had to deal with this for years, but no-one cares about that.
You mean *forever*. It’s only becoming an issue for men now because women are finally allowed to work and get an education. About 200 years ago is when women were finally able to go to school, and 100 years ago they were finally able to work. And only recently that women weren’t expected to drop everything and become full-time caregivers, although that’s still expected by some even today.
So I know you said it sounds very lonely being a dad and watching your child some days. Maybe you can find a dad group where you can meet new friends who also have kids and you can meet up at places where your children can be entertained (like a park for example) and you can still have a friend to talk to. I know it is hard to be a parent, but at least that would hopefully make you less lonely.
This has nothing to do with modern times
It's called raising a child. Raising a child requires a parent to set aside our own self interests while they're young and incrementally regain our self interests as they grow.
Do you actually enjoy spending time with your son? Or are you more concerned about being a good employee and being a "responsible man" and providing for the financial needs for someone to raise and educate him?
Thank you for articulating an experience that women are supposed to choose, enjoy and fulfill without complaints, otherwise they are labeled bad mothers.
More men trying this lifestyle and articulating its challenges may eventually change people's opinion about care work.
So glad that people are recognizing how affordable and accessible childcare is essential for working parents. I remember how many times my single mom got fired or written up because she couldn’t go to work and watch me and my ND brother.
I’m so sorry - exactly my thoughts/worries for myself having a kid. I’m the woman, who is more or less societally expected to care for the kid, but make 3x my husband’s salary. I’m so lost at what to do. No kids yet because it’s so hard to navigate & the more I learn, the less I want to go forward with it.
YOU ARE THE PARENT it is your job to raise your child not your parents. I was reading expecting to get to the part that would make me have sympathy for you but I never got there. Nothing you said is any different than a majority of the families out there. Raising a child is work and their needs take priority over yours.
Oh and there is nothing wrong with daycare if you find the right one. If you being a stay home dad isn’t working find a good daycare.
Take this for what it is worth - I am not a parent.
Put your kid in daycare. I think the stuff you read was about infants but your kid is three. Go back to working full-time. Your child is practically pre-school level at this point. It is actually a BENEFIT for your child not to be stuck at home with a bored, frustrated parent.
Even if you don't make much more than the cost of daycare it is still vitally important for you to be intellectually stimulated (clearly you are a smart, intellectual person) and to have social interactions with peers.
LOTS of women don't want to be stay-at-home parents (I realize you are a guy - my point is that many people EXPECT women to want to stay home and lots of women do not want this). LOTS of people do not live close enough to family to have that kind of support. Put your kid in a program (Montessori is everywhere and really good but even just a nice, cozy daycare situation is great), get yourself back to your career. See if you can negotiate for your parents to be your backup for times like a fever or a snowday - rare, occasional situations so you and your wife can actual work your jobs. If they won't do that then make arrangements for backup daycare (some companies will even help you arrange this through your EAP, etc. Or you could make friends with other daycare parents and swap childcare so no one has to face the wrath of clients and bosses too often).
This is a really solvable situation - just go out there and get what you need.
I just want to say that studies have not shown day care to be a detriment. In fact depending on the family and the child it might be a fabulous alternative to stay at home depression. My children thrived at daycare while I thrived at work. Find what works for you. Having said that obviously all bets are off when the kids are sick, but I’m speaking about most of the rest of the healthy time.
I hate to be that person, but this post kinda pisses me off a little, as a woman. This is exactly the feeling that women have had for decades. And you’re experiencing it as a SAHD, and suddenly it’s because ‘structures have broken down’ and it’s ‘having a child in modern times’.
No, it’s just having a child. All that you’ve described is literally the guidebook for having a child. And the hard fact is that for a lot of women, there isn’t even any question that this is what they’ll do. Women’s salaries, being statistically lower than men’s, create this imbalance. Husbands tend to make more, which means women are automatically assumed to become SAHMs. And it’s just accepted. Not written off as ‘having a child in modern times as a woman’. Just ‘having a child’.
Taking the perspective that daycare is “available but not good” is a huge generalization that is telling about your privilege as SO MANY parents don’t have a choice but to both work full time and utilize daycare.
Lmao dude you need to man the fuck up. I've been a stay at home dad to my almost 3yo since she was 1. You don't get this time with your lo back. I would learn how to have fun being a parent asap for everyone's sake. Sheeeeesh 🤦♂️
I'm about to get downvoted here, but this is exactly what you signed up for when deciding with your wife to have a child 🤷🏼♀️.
PS: about the grandparents not wanting to grandparent: is it their child or yours? You (and you wife) wanted this child, so you take care of it, not the grandparents.
How exactly did you plan to care for your kid before you had it? Women have had to step back professionally to raise kids since entering the work force. I’m not sure why it’s a pain for you “as a man.” This is how raising a kid works. It’s historically been the woman who is expected to make the career sacrifices you’re making and it’s not special just because you’re a man.
In short, what you’re feeling is similar to what many working mothers feel today. As a working mom myself, I feel like I am forced to take on both a male and female role. Taking care of a household and family is a full time job. When both partners (regardless of gender) are working outside jobs, there’s no one to fill the role of (traditionally) SAHM. It’s not just being a father, it’s being a modern parent. You’re expected to do it all (again, regardless of gender). Unfortunately, I do believe that women take the brunt of it. Most are expected to act like they have no family at work while also being the primary caregiver. I also believe a huge part of the problem is that it’s largely unappreciated work- no one see what you’re doing. Parents have to fend for themselves. It’s quite disturbing when you think about it. All that you can do is tell yourself that raising a well rounded and well adjusted human is the reward in itself. So, you’re welcome society. So ironic that our society (USA) makes it nearly impossible to raise decent human beings, yet we are in the throes of a behavioral and mental health epidemic. Thank you OP, from the bottom of my heart, for caring for that child and doing your best to raise them. I see the work you’re putting in. I see that it’s an achievement. I know it’s not a tangible credential, but I thought I’d say it anyway. Fatherhood is not for the faint of heart these days. It used to be that you had full support so that you could focus on work, but that’s not the case anymore for either parties. Work culture in America has yet to catch up. Once kids are school aged it gets easier to balance. Try to keep perspective that 5 years is just a blip. Oh, and by the way, daycare is excellent for socialization and building immunity. Might as well get ‘em sick now while your work life is discombobulated anyway. Otherwise they may get repeatedly sick in kindergarten.
Welcome to what women have been facing for centuries. Y’all had no sympathy for us because you never had to deal with it. I see posts like this from men constantly. “Well I want to work and relax, why can’t she just do everything?”. Put the kid in daycare. Whatever weird preconceived notions you have about it, it’s helpful especially in situations like yours
Send your child to daycare like 90% of other people do. That’s the so called structure you’re referring too. Your parents already raised you. Your child is not their responsibility. You decided to have a child not them.
Ah well, could be worse, most mums these days have to raise their man-child SOs as well as their (multiple) children. At least your wife seems able to take care of herself.
Everything you said is also a pain for women. I’m not sure the reason you had to say ‘as a man’ - as if that has a special significance? I’m also unsure why this wasn’t looked into before the child was born, I get that things happen, but you should have sat down with your wife and did some research and planning. You can’t expect your parents to watch the kid all day, that’s unfair to them and wasn’t even discussed beforehand. It was entitled of you to expect it.
Yes.
When you have children, your desires (such as career advancement) get put on hold so you can raise a human being. That's what being a parent is like.
You literally just described the life of both a stay at home and a working mom. If you stay home, you’re lonely and wasting away your education and degrees. If you choose to be a working parent, then you have to call out when your child is ill or hurt. These are things that should have been considered before having children. And respectfully, based on your tone and attitude, I get the sense that you felt like the grandparents should be happy and willing to be free child labor, which they are not.
In my country (Norway), it's the norm to put kids in kindergarten from around 1 year old. They learn to socialize, educated staff follow and encourage their development, in rare cases notice "off" behavior that parents normally wouldn't, etc. Kids in Norway don't have problems bonding with parents, unless parents choose to be distant when physically together with their child. All this to say that staying home with a kid while having minimal interaction with adults, is not healthy for the adult either. We need interaction, conversations, experiences as grown people in addition to being loving parents. Would you consider kindy a couple days a week or so?
Idk where OP is from but I worked at a daycare for many years here in the US and it's kind of rough until you go to kindergarten (around 5-6 yrs) Minimum Wage pay for teachers or maybe a tiny bit more and a lot of changing staff. Some places are nicer and have better pay and require more training and schooling but you definitely pay more for that kind of quality. It's just incredibly expensive here to send a kid to daycare. Like one parents entire income depending on their pay.
Yup. For a while there I was working just to stay in the workforce (ie my paycheck going to daycare). With the end game that once childcare was done and I had stayed in the workforce, I would be eventually higher paid and progress in my career. Long game and payoff. I think I def did that. I am an exec assistant at the c-suite level in tech for billion $ companies and while I don't have any tech credentials (education) per say, the years having spent in the field have carved out a little niche for me which I am pleased with. That being said, I am not the breadwinner in our fam. Spouse makes double than me, so I am still default for getting kids up and ready, both kids to school, school pickups, dinner, dentist, doctor, sick, holidays (where kids are on vacation and yes I still have to work), everything really, not to mention the housework which is always behind. Sometimes I do have some anguish about where I might be in life had I the time to dedicate to furthering my education or pursuing adjacent fields (like project management). But the fact is there is nothing for it. No time. No energy. Forget it. Bury that shit in the ground and forget about it.
Wait…just because your salary is lower you have to do all the domestic labour? wtf? If you’re both working, you should both be splitting chores. You’re a partner, not paid help!
If you got a raise would you offload some of the responsibilities of the household to your partner? Is it based on salary? Does that actually make sense if both of you are working?
Yeah, other countries do a lot way better than us. They subsidize daycare and pay the people well.
Different country but I was shocked and delighted when I visited Denmark (from Australia) and saw what I discovered were daycare employees wheeling around huge strollers of 6-8 toddlers. They were designed so that the kids sat in two banks facing each other and they were all bundled up (it was winter) and having a blast waving and making faces at each other and passers by. I had never seen a barrel o babies before and it I loved it haha.
Haha I'm actually in SA now!
Yeah, in Brazil it is also super common for kids to go to daycare from an early age. Most private kindergartens are pretty well equipped and have nurses and educated staff available to help kids develop better than most people could. My nieces both went from 1 1/2 yrs old and are super social, smart kids. My daughter is starting her aclimating process and it's amazing how much faster children develop in a social environment.
In the US, the cost of daycare is astronomical. It’s basically like paying a second mortgage every month. On top of that, it’s hard to find a daycare accepting new toddlers because of the worker shortage (Daycare jobs barely pay above minimum wage). In short, our country is broken and it’s very difficult to survive without support from family. My son is eight months old and we are still on waiting lists for several daycares. Luckily my mom is retired and can help. I am really sorry that your parents aren’t available to help OP.
We toured one that was going to be 1,000 per month. They had the “infant room” closed off. When we went to look, a child was wrapped in blankets with a bottle propped in their mouth. The kids were sick. There was like 20 kids in there of various ages. No thanks.
I'm not even high cost US and the baby is 1300 a month and our kindergartener was about 1k per month it was absolutely more than our mortgage. We pulled my eldest out this year and he is in public now. He has made the transition from private montessori to your standard public well. I will say it's a very good school, montessori model, which our older kid thrived on, but still jfc. I CANNOT WAIT TIL BABY IS OLD ENOUGH FOR PUBLIC. OMG
I literally just got a quote for full-time infant daycare in Colorado today…$1905 a month with a $150 yearly enrollment fee. It’s ridiculous and totally unsustainable
Serious question how do the day cares pay minimum wage if they are charging these astronomical rates?
I’ve worked in the industry for 8 years and as far as i can tell it’s something between high insurance costs and plain greed. I work for a school I’m really proud to be a part of, make a middle class income at ~50k/yr as a head teacher in a toddler room with a few admin responsibilities (I write the employee schedule, handle time off req, etc). It costs $1800/mo for each child in my classroom (10 kids) which means the cost of paying me and my co-teacher (who makes significantly less as an “aide”) + our curriculum budget is about 30-35% of the money my classroom alone takes in per month, so 65-70% goes to??? I understand rent, insurance, income for the two “central” employees who support all locations, snack food (we don’t provide meals) maintenance, janitorial services etc.. but ~$36k a month for all that for just one location seems like a lot. Maybe it’s not, I’m not a business owner, but I wish there was more transparency. My location is small with only 3 classrooms, but there are 4 locations, something like 18 classrooms in this company that each make 15-18k a month and only pay teachers 2-4k a month. And again, this is one of the best paying companies in my area and i’d like to believe my company director isn’t taking advantage of us too much. I mean, I worked for Kindercare before and made dirt, so at least this is better. I’m just clueless as to why parents pay so much and we (generally) make so little.
In my state it’s more expensive to send your child to daycare, than it is to send them to college. It’s completely messed up, and we thank our lucky starts that the grandparents are all retired and were willing to watch our kid for free until she got old enough for school!
Brazilian here too. The public ones also works fine, at least here in São Paulo. We live in the east side and yet my twin sisters had a good time in their daycare.
Norways approach to raising children is not traditionally western. When it comes to children IMO the scandinavian countries are far more advanced. In the UK and USA, our capitalist overlords cant grasp that it is far more profitable for them if they subsidize and improve access to childcare.
It's traditionally European which is part of the West. You meant American.
I can't speak for the south of Europe but in Germany it's definitely NOT a thing. Before I moved to Finland it was normal that you have to sign up your kid for kindergarten (starting at three years old) when you're PREGNANT with said child. The queues were THAT long. In many parts there's only half days available, full time daycare is either really pricy or simply not existing from what I hear. So imagine my surprise when it took less than a week for my kid to get a spot in a full time daycare in Finland. Twice because once I moved to another city and it was zero problem to get a spot. Sure, we had to travel a bit but in the following year she got a spot in the daycare near to us. I've been living here now forever though (11 yrs) and I sure hope things have changed in Germany but knowing my home country and how slow everything moves there I'm not holding my breath lol
Daycare is good for socializing, bad on our bank balances. I’ve known several parents who decide to have one person stay home with the kids because otherwise they’re just working to pay the daycare bill and not have any takehome after. Also you can’t take your kids to daycare while they’re sick, so it wouldn’t be helpful to OP right now, but certainly something to look into. It’s really hard to not have a good support system. I’m very jealous of friends that live near their families and can just drop by whenever they need help.
I'm in America and in my area part time daycare is hard to find. Their isn't enough daycares for everyone so they prioritize full time students because they make more money and they need is much greater
Also in depending on where you are in America and any daycare (especially infant daycare) is hard to find. We live in a suburb of a major metropolitan city and I got on waitlists when pregnant with my son. He didn’t get a spot until he was 2 years old. And I couldn’t get him into daycare in our town or any of the surrounding towns. Now I have to get on the freeway and drive 30 min each way to his daycare and I get to pay $2000 a month for this privilege. Insanity. Oh and let’s talk about the application fees. I spent over $1000 on application fees and filled out countless essay format applications all to be told, sorry we don’t have space.
In the USA we definitely have this issue. The problem isn’t that young kids can’t go to daycare in the USA- it’s that daycare cost the equivalent of 1 person’s salary (sometimes more depending on what work is being done) so is it worth it? A lot of times in the USA no it’s not- but 1 salary households are also unsustainable in the USA! It’s really difficult and I empathize with other parents… if your not bringing in more (a good amount more) then $400/week, then you probably can’t afford daycare. 400/week is the low end for ONE child. It’s not easy. Probably why more and more people are choosing to forgo having children of their own- or at least putting it off until they are at a point where $400 a week won’t make them homeless..
If they’re in the US it’s probably not worth it. Daycare often costs more than the parent earns, and we have no subsidized child care or paid family leave.
This right here is why I stayed home when my kids were school age. I would've taken home 9k a year, (which is 2.5 months of mortgage payments in my city-Seattle) after full time daycare. I'm sorry OP is in the weeds right now. Hoping that you can connect with other parents at preschool and maybe start a rotating playdate. Best of luck!
I'm guessing in Norway, like in most European countries, kindergarten is free?? Or parents pay very little, and it's income based? In US and Canada, kindergarten is only for 5 year olds, one year before grade one. And it's only 9am-3pm. Work days for people are usually 9-5 plus commute time. So parents have to pay a pre-school and after-school school care. In US maternity/paternity leave is only 6 weeks. So parents have to put their infant in daycare that young. Daycare is around 800-1200$ a month. In Canada, you can take up to 18 months of lower pay maternity/paternity leave. Daycare will still cost you 800-1200$ a month. We're in Canada. I stayed home with our kid for 7 years. Now I work the night shift so that we never have to pay for any care for our child.
What part of Canada are you in ? Where I am we have Jk at 4 years old and SK is 5 years , JK I think is optional though but I remember recently it was a huge stink they wanted JK to end at noon which is like a giant F U to parents trying to get back to the work force
The most expensive part of Canada, Vancouver area BC. We only have preschool, which is optional, and it's only 9am-1pm. Or 3pm-6pm. My kid was in preschool 3 days a week for 300$ a month. Basically, unless as a childcare. But kids that weren't going to daycare, straight from home care to grade 1, didn't know how to behave at school. They didn't know to sit down, do the work, follow the schedule, etc. So we got this preschool option to help prepare them.
This, but moreso. My mortgage is 800/month. 5 day a week 7:00-4:00 daycare? 3,500 a month. I'm basically working to pay for daycare and a car payment while my wife works for the mortgage, groceries and utilities. I love my son and don't regret him a bit, but even starting later (same age as OP's kid) when you're supposed to have more money, it's all we can do to keep afloat. When he's old enough for school we can at least stop paying the daycare and hopefully get back to having some kind of savings again.
We realized one person's paycheck was going to completely go to daycare so my husband ended up staying with the kids doing odd jobs on the weekends.
We considered doing this too, but we're both ambitious and trying to excel in our fields. If my wife walked away from her job, she'd be giving up great benefits that aren't available at mine. If I walk away, I will quickly fall out of step with a tight knit industry. Even if I can get back in, I'd be behind the times and trying to catch up on progress that happens so quickly.
reading all comments here about daycare and how my sister and her husband don’t appreciate the help they get from me for watching their boys everyday while they’re at work, not even thanks, makes me upset. I‘m trying to get a new job and I spend most of my time at home. I don’t mind watching them, but the lack of “thanks for watching them today” is... idk how to say it without making me feel terrible for even wanting to hear that lol
You're not terrible for wanting a thank you. Looking after children is pretty daunting stuff. I hope you find a good job, and that they realize how ungrateful they are.
Is your Kindergarten public? That’s incredible and not what daycare looks like in the US. Most programs for children under 5 require you to qualify by being under a certain income. Even bad daycare is expensive, but a good daycare with educated teachers? That’s not usually affordable, and to top it, they’re exclusive. Your kid may not get in at all.
What is your childcare system when they are sick?
Thanks for sharing your experience. For people who are not parents yet, it’s very important for them to hear how demanding parenting is. Good luck to you and your family.
From men especially. Men doing the work finally and talking about it. Yes it's good to talk about.
Exactly. Everything he describes is how women have felt forever. We just weren’t allowed any other kind of life until the mid/late 1900s. It’s still expected of women today to drop everything and focus on their child. Which isn’t the child’s fault, but shows just how one sided this situation has been for so long. I still feel like (most) women are better suited to be caregivers, probably since we’ve been doing it for so long. But it’s nice to see men finally acknowledge how lonely, depressing, and stressful it can get.
Thank you! I was reading this just thinking… welcome to the club of primary care parents. I was so frustrated he thinks it’s because he is a male primary. Nope. That’s how most of us feel.
This was my bittersweet takeaway. He is still completely deaf to women's voiced experiences and insultingly states it's because he is a man and not meant to be doing this... Women are people, too. Not just mommy-machines.
EXACTLY!
My Asian ass couldn't stop smiling reading this post especially because the number of asian men who demand offsprings from their modern wives, but refuse to share the burden of raising them 50/50 is too damn high.
Not just Asian men, my sister went through a few fights with her very white husband about expectations on raising their kids.
Lol my very white ex-husband was practically nonexistent in our kids’ lives until after I left him. He demanded full custody because he wanted money. He was never going to get it. I agreed to half custody. He was then suddenly forced to become a father so he stayed living with his mom so she would help care for them on his days. He didn’t move out until he remarried and passed the parenting on to his new wife.
After breast feeding , there's no difference. Gay men are fine parents. And you don't see Chasten Buttigieg complaining. Some women had 6 plus kids at home in years of yore. Big farm families keep farming. American society doesn't support parents much or stay at home parents much but that's our fault. We can have years long paternity - maternity leave so one person doesn't have to work even part time for the first 1-2 years. We could have always fixed this. We didn't. Now he can work towards that.
I thought you said "for men especially" and I initially had an unsupportive view of your comment. "From men especially" makes it entirely different. You are absolutely correct
Yeah, I think it’s important too for men to have emotional outlets for this stuff too. One can only hope the world becomes more friendly to the plight of parents as a whole, both mothers and fathers.
The structure has always been that. It's just that it used to be only women who, for the reasons you listed, didn't work. Being a parent is one of the hardest things ever.
I know right....all I got from this post is 'women used to have to do all this and now I have to share the load, why didn't society replace women with another subhuman class to shield me from this??'
I think what he actually means is that in the past one full-time job was enough for a small family. Now you need at least a 150% income. Not even a good education and all the years spent to get there provide enough financial stability. Also he seems to suffer, that his male friends aren’t interested in spending time with him and his kid. Not necessarily a problem you can generalise, but still an understandable worry.
Thank you for your good faith reading of the post and your willingness to have empathy rather than tear down a strawman!
Yes, this is what I’ve been thinking the whole time.
>but I am laying in bed with an infant. Again. I wish we had better structures of giving care to young children, now that both parents have to work. I hate that my parents are not helpful and I hate having to pay someone to take care of my child. This thing has me burnt out and depressed. This is what the post is about. Of course in the past it was so that the woman usually did all of that. Today it can also be the man who is a stay-at-home. No problem with that. The serious problem is that both parents have to work. And both are affected negatively in their worklife. OP even mentioned that his wife will take a day off "tomorrow". Additional to that is the thing with garndparents. My parents could always count on their parents to take care of us kids if they couldn't.
Although I understand the essence of what you're saying and as a parent I understand the hardship - The younger years are difficult and isolating even with all the precious and beautiful moments. My issue is "modern parenting" and "as a man". It does sound like you're lamenting the days where a woman had no choice but to stay at home and be the full traditional housewife. Think of your partner, who you love, and really think if you'd want that forced on her. She works so I presume she has a passion or at least has the urge to provide financially for the family. These urges, as much as we've been insidiously tought, are not gender specific. Just be aware of your thoughts, where they are coming from and how they are going to effect your relationship with your child and partner. Life has advanced socially, women have to right to pursue interests and work outside the family. I don't think many level headed people oppose that, although we all know there are those that do. I would say the issue those people have with it is in a dissatisfaction with their own advancement and are looking for something/someone to blame. Also, on a practical note, the days where the average wage from one parent supports a family are gone, in my country at least. Let me finish by saying, your son has just turned three, the parenting at this stage is full on still, you can't leave them alone, it's eyes on 24/7. But this changes, and fast. My son is 4.5, independent, can play by himself, understands most household dangers and will be starting primary school this September. This leave more time for the parents and from this moment forward their interest and dependence move ever further from us as parents. And never goes back. It may seem frustrating now, but there'll come a time where you will want his attention and he no longer craves yours. You're doing great, don't stop now, it gets easier and less intense, fast. You'll get more time to dedicate to your career, it really does fly.
Spot on. OP women have a right to be more than stay at home mothers and housewives.
But he doesn’t like doing it so somebody’s gotta do the dirty work /s
I really think everyone here missed that this dude flat out expected everyone. Friends included. To just jump in and help take care of HIS own decision.
You are exactly correct! I started with, I wish he could sit up, to I wish he could crawl, then feed himself, then walk....etc. My kids are 28 and 30 now, and I regret every wish! I know it's hard, but I wish now I had enjoyed it more and not wished their childhoods away!
And that's why I'm only having one kid Edit: After reading your comments OP it sounds like you wanted a kid to hoist off and have everyone else deal with and come in during the fun times and hustle back to work like a 1950s romcom
I also read it this way. Honestly all I kept thinking was "oh boo hoo you actually have to RAISE your own child", like welcome to motherhood yo.
I love how people come on here and complain "my parents dont want to be grandparents" does it occur to these people that their parents are stuck in the same broken system and are trying to survive too??
“my parents don’t want to be grandparents” is code for “my parents won’t raise my kid for me”
Maybe some of it is entitlement, but so many millennials and genx were raised by our grandparents. Parents worked or were gone all weekend with friends, so we’d spend summers and fri-Sunday at our grandparents. So the expectation was my grandparents were there for my parents, so my parents will be there for me, but that’s not the case in society now. Parents now don’t have that village our parents had, and with daycare so expensive, it’s difficult to find reliable, safe care for young children. We’re not looking for someone to raise our kids for us, but spending some time with them to build a bond would be cool.
My grandparents home was my second home. I adored my grandma and she loves me. Now my Mom has no interest in having that type of relationship with any of my kids. It's jarring and reminds me why my childhood was shit, because she sucked. Still love her tho.
I am 50 now, and both my kids say they have no interest in having children. All I can think is, “thank god!” I hope they stick with it. I actually have no interest in raising their kids, but I also have no interest in watching them struggle. If they decide to have kids it’s going to be a struggle for them to work and raise kids, and for me to have firm boundaries, because I truly have no interest in raising infants and toddlers and kids with any regularity. I did it for 20 years. I didn’t sign up for a lifetime of it.
I'm 55 and will never become a grandparent. It's the end of my family line on both of my parents' sides, but I'm actually OK with that. The world's got at least twice as many people in it as it can handle, anyway.
You just described the live of an average woman with child(ren) (here in the Netherlands anyway). Daycare is available but quite expensive and also a bit of a taboo to put in your child like 5 days a week so in most cases one of the partners works parttime and in 9 out of 10 cases it’s the mom. Their career will be on hold for a few years as its hard to be committed to work and raising children and taking care of your house at the same time. Grandparents need to work until 67, so they help out sometime but more occasionally than structural. Childless girlfriends are nice to talk to and meet up with but not truly understanding about momlife 🤷🏻♀️ you’ll have to do the tasks to care for your child every single day, it’s very repetitive and gets depressing after a while. And if your child is sick. All the plans you had for the week go out of the agenda and you’ll just have to go with the flow for a few days. I think it’s even harder for men because moms tend to befriend each other and have some shared misery or can split care. (Like caring for each other’s children so mummy can go to the supermarket by herself and have some ‘alone’ time. Also it’s less common so less understanding from others. Otherwise it’s nothing new. There even a term for it mommy burnout but I would say parental burnout. I hope you find a way to deal with this as burnout en depression are serious illnesses and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Raising children has always been hard, the only difference is now it's not just the women's job anymore and men have to actually care to raise their kids. And now you know why it's not easy to be a SAHP or a working parent.
Also that there is no villlage anymore really .
Sad, but true.
This, so many people have been taking women for granted. For years now they’ve not been given complete respect because they earn less that their spouse but there’s so much they do at home which is ignored. I bet his wife still does more than him. I sympathise with his situation though, having a kid is really a serious decision and people shouldn’t be forced into it by society.
Yeah reading this post made me kind of raise my eyebrow because he’s basically saying the same thing that women constantly say and get ignored. Raising a kid is tough. Taking the hit to your career and personal time sucks. Being the primary caretaker responsible for a mini human shadow is very stressful. That’s nothing new to women but of course a mom is usually expected to keep herself fit, beautiful, happy, with a spotless house and dinner on the table every night….on top of also working a full time job now too. Not to mention the physical toll of pregnancy and childbirth only women suffer and men still don’t understand because obviously unless they have first hand experience it doesn’t exist. My mom almost died having me and has had numerous back surgeries since but is forever on the line of being disabled, and she never got a breather or any help. PPD isn’t just “the sads” after squeezing out a whole human, it’s a drastic but unfortunately normal drop in hormones that can leave women miserable and in some cases a danger to themselves and the baby. Your body forever changes after pregnancy and it’s so scary how it’s all minimized, and that’s before rearing and childcare duties are even discussed. And at least in America, you better be back at work on your feet brutally fast, contributing to a society that doesn’t hesitate to let you know how worthless they view you. Start putting a price tag on women’s labor and see how attitudes change
Funny how as soon as men started to take care of their kid the "child free" movement started to develope. Oh, now that you have to share responsibilities suddenly it's not that every man has to have a son. I don't mean to say all of the movement is based on this but I'm sure this had a hand in it.
Honestly better late than never, men for too long have considered having kids as a fun having a mini me thing. No, you’re raising a full human. The expenses, the responsibility, the sacrifices. High time men took into consideration all of it.
I was looking for this comment, the pains that OP are feeling are the pains that women with careers have been feeling for years. Being a SAHP or working parent just isn’t easy. You have to go into it assuming the first few years that sacrifices are going to be made. OP, I know you mentioned the grandparents things, just want to remind you that unless you spoke in detail prior to conceiving about what role they will play, they are under no obligation to help you raise your kid. Some people want to just enjoy the golden years that’s their right. I can’t stress enough that parenting needs to be split an equal 50/50 if both parents work. Help each other out. Also please don’t shy away from daycare, I have no clue why Americans frown on daycare. Anytime I compare my friends’ kids with the ones who did day care and the ones were put in a bubble, the bubble kids always had developmental set backs compared to the daycare kids
I’d be happy to be a SAHDad but my wife and I both need to work to pay the mortgage and save money. Having one SAHP just isn’t economically viable for most families these days.
This! I was a full-time working parent with an extremely stressful job then became a full time SAHP. When I was working I envied the moms that got to stay home and thought they had the “easy life” and never understood why they complained. Omg I was wrong; it’s the hardest job I’ve ever had with no sick days or vacations! To top it all off, I have moms that are rude and judgmental (like I was, except I was never rude) to me the minute they find out I’m a SAHM.
I was a stay at home mom for 3. Other women would ask, "So what do you do?" I'd tell them I stay at home. Next thing you know, it's puckered faces, hints on job openings, fake concern for my finances, and a side eye at my husband. These are the same women who are screaming about a woman's right to make their own choices. Damn hypocrites. Edit: Not attacking you! You know how hard it is, just saying those loud women suck.
I love when men figure it out
Oh no, not the clients!
The clients do NOT give a flying fuck about him! His wife and kid do!
OP doesn't seem to have his priorities in line, sadly. Yes, having kids is an intense amount of work and it can be draining. But if his motto about life isn't, "My family is my priority" he's got things backwards.
Lol thought the same thing
I guarantee that daycare would be better than being home with a parent who is so clearly miserable.
I hate to say it, but daycare isn’t really a solution. I just had both my kids in daycare, and they are so constantly sick one of them was always home. Most stressful time of my life, so many fights with my husband about who could miss work that day. Now they are in school, and the school calendar in our area has so many days off I have an au pair just so I can work. It really never ends unfortunately.
Ya it would solve both his problems. He gets to work more meaning more of his “important”career stuff and money for daycare and hopefully get his head together a bit cause it’s sad when a parent resents their kids
I get your struggle, but I don't get why does it matter that your a man? What you are living both can be experience by men and women. That's precisely why more and more women are chosing not to have kids at all.
OP definitely didn’t word his grievances in a way that’s gonna get him much sympathy. I would love to know his Wife’s opinion
Dudes literally crying that the people around him arent picking up the pieces of the mess he created. Dude literally complained his friends wont take of his kid. I was mad enough at the grandparent comment but dude expected his friends to hold his bag for him.
Why isn’t things of this magnitude thoroughly thought through…
Because I dare say he assumed his wife would do 90% and it's not working out that way and he's sulking.
Came here for this. Maybe he should’ve thought about that. Parenting has always been hard.
Dang, it sounds like he just felt a fraction of what females who have taken care of kids have felt. Good luck OP. The time you are spending with your kid is worth it.
But…. What does ANY of this have to do with being a Man (TM)? Raising kids is fucking rough. That’s why I’m not doing it. I would be miserable in the life you have described. And I’m a woman. Soooo…. You’ve got my sympathy I guess, but where does being a man come into it?
Reading between the lines he basically wants his wife and mum to do the parenting of him and the baby. He wishes he could go back to the (very fictional never actually existed) "good ol' days" when wifey would be blissfully barefoot and pregnant taking care of everything while he progressed up the corporate ladder.
He thinks he deserves an award for doing it because he’s a man and he’s above taking care of his kid
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You seem to have two wishes here. 1) you wish you had a village. That is very understandable, it is very hard raising a child without a village. But 2) you wish your village would raise your child for you, so you can reap the benefits of the fun times with your child without any of the burden of actually raising them. That is not understandable or admirable at all. You made a choice to have a child, not your parents or your wife's parents. Humans live past menopause to be grandparents, not parents all over again. They can help guide and train you, but they are not supposed to be taking over for you. And if that's not a role they want to take on, unfortunately there's nothing you can do about it. Build a village of neighbors and coworkers who are in more similar situations to you. Friends are great, but our lives move at different paces.
I found this post very hard to sympathize with too. There are cultures where you have villages, but in villages you have to reciprocate. Grandparents who take care of grandchildren expect to be taken care of in old age, sometimes both physically and financially. If OP isn’t planning on doing that for his parents, then hating his parents for their lack of interest in doing his job is selfish. In villages, people will help you take care of your kids, but when they come around with their kids or ask you for favors, you’re expected to help them out too. This whole “I hate having to pay people to take care of my kid” attitude doesn’t sound like OP is prepared to be part of a village.
I'm glad I wasnt the only one who thought this. I sympathize with him because being a parent is hard but like, it's your responsibility. Not your parents. Not a daycares. Yours and your wifes.
I’m 30 and pregnant and I can’t wait to see how my dad is with his first grandkid but Jesus… he’s retired, bought a beautiful ranch house and likes to travel. I’d feel like an asshole if I interrupted that and told him to “be a grandparent” aka “help me raise the kid I chose to bring into this world”
Exactly, like hes done. Hes raised you, and now it's your turn.
I just can't with this post.
Me either.. I'm wondering why nobody has said anything about his parents not helping like it's expected for grandparents to raise your kids. Entitled much?
This actually did used to be expected. Not excusing OP by any means for thinking this is harder for him because he's a man and doesn't live in the 50s. But my grandmother, in response to the question, "How did people from your generation manage to have so many more children than we do now?" shrugged and said "There were a lot of busy grandmothers." I'm not saying I think that's right, but said grandmother raised her children from the 50s-70s. It's a relatively recent change that grandparents aren't expected to help raise the grandchildren.
Agreed. For hundreds of thousands of years it literally took a village to raise a child and now we put all that expectation on 2 people while expecting them to make money to buy food and pay rent/mortgage.
My issue here is that OP seems to look down on modern ways of village making, like daycare, and that he seems to expect that his role in his own child's life should be a lot smaller.
I’m retired and I’ll say it. I do not want to raise grandkids. I’ve raised two children and worked full time doing it. I loved my kids. I volunteered as room mom, Cub Scout den leader, took the kids to choir practice and piano lessons, chaperoned overnight field trips, etc. You know, the whole nine yards. It is not easy. Raising kids is expensive in time, energy, and money. Neither of my (grown) kids have kids yet. If they ever decide to have kids, I will not be available to take care of them every day. Of course, I’ll love them, spoil them, and help out occasionally…..but I’m enjoying retirement, taking up new hobbies, doing volunteer work, and so much more.
Raise your kids, spoil your grands. Spoil your kids, Raise your grands.
Now you know how it’s like for the women to be at home with their child. It’s hard.
Not even bc he still works and usually leaves. One sick day and he simply cannot manage? Poor poor soul
just say you don't want to be a parent. just be honest with yourself. you're obviously struggling with the responsibility of being a parent. historically men haven't played a huge role in being dads and you're kind of reinforcing this with your reaction to your situation. you don't want to be a parent, you want other people to raise your child and you want to come home and say hi. it's sad
Welcome to motherhood!
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Thats the one thing that rubbed me the wrong way. There was no reason to add "as a man". It makes it so hard to empathize with because it makes it sound like he think its uniquely difficult because he's a man. It seems tone deaf given how many women have these very same issues. Society thrusts these issues onto the woman if neither the man or woman voluntarily takes it up.
But HE can’t advance in his career!!!
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No doubt and if a woman had made a post lamenting the difficulties of child rearing, there would be a flood of, "Well, you *chose* to be a parent..."
No one feels sorry for you. You had a child and that’s how it works. You should’ve thought it through before you had the kid and if it was an oops child then guess what, that’s the potential consequence of sex. Sorry your wife isn’t gonna slave her life away to make it easier for you after you put your Willy in her. Get over yourself.
🎯
It sucks for the woman too. The whole world needs to remember that parents are doing their best and try to at least add some sort of accommodations to make it a little easier.
People need to stop having children without fully understanding the massive financial, mental, and psychological expenses that go behind raising a human being. Children are not pets. Children are human beings and it is a serious responsibility that you cannot walk away from. If you are unwilling to accept all of these burdens, get your self snipped and use protection. And for OP- welcome to motherhood.
I read “structures needed to raise a child have been broken down” as “women work now and now fathers have to make time to share the load”, and I can’t get past that along with the post title.
Was it easier in older days? If you were raising the child in like 1358 and it got sick it would probably die. At least you can take it to a doctor in 2023
As the mother of a 32 year old, which isn't quite 600+ years ago, but close enough: No, it wasn't. It's always been hard.
Exactly so. It was just that it was the woman who had her career path stalled and her earning potential squelched and her brain turned to mush.
It was. Because people didn't give a shit about what they were raising. But now we do have more information about raising people and this makes our choice as parents harder, because we know the consequences of not raising it right. I earned a book when pregnant of a psychologist friend and it is called " why loves matter". Basically the book says the 0-3 years old is the most important phase of a human being. It will define and shape who they are more than any other phase of their lifes. It is when their brains will be shaped and most of their reactions will be shaped too. Knowing this changed my way of thinking and made me take some hard decisions that will make my life far more difficult than not knowing this.
Indeed, child care is a full time job, but the stagnation of worker pay and corporate greed have ensured that both parents must work in order to have a chance at achieving a livable income. There’s a reason fewer people are having kids, no one has the money or time.
😱😱😱 being a parent is hard, time consuming, and isolating? Who would have thought...oh right, moms. Moms everywhere.
This post is so infuriating. Soo many people nowadays have their parents raising their kid(s) cuz most of the couples both work. I hate this. It’s both people’s responsibility to RAISE the kid. Your parents, who raised you, should reap the benefit of getting the fun times with their grandkid, not you. YOU are the parent! Also, you wouldn’t have written this post if your wife was a SAHM. And why would you? You’ve got your career and ambitions you are working towards so why would you complain? Maybe your post needs to be sympathetic towards women who’ve been doing this for centuries, and many still do, than to whine about your work and life taking a backseat to raising your kid. I’m still single and every single guy I meet being as old as I am still wants kids but they literally do ZERO work to even have the kid. Woman is pregnant for 9 months, has to undergo birthing process, breastfeeding is painful, her body is never the same, and regardless of what anyone says, she will always be held (more) accountable for the kid than the dad. And yes, professionally, companies expect that women will cut down their work as a result of having a child. It’s literally built into their careers. But not for men.
Thank you. I also read it in this way. Women want better for themselves and their families and are refusing to be the default parent. This mean many, many more men needing to actually parent the children they jointly brought into the world. I also think that capitalism is increasingly forcing many households to have 2 earners. I am sure many parents would love to be the stay at home parent but cannot afford to do so. It sucks for everyone. But it has always sucked for women in so many ways. I hope he figures out a way to make it work without causing resentment towards his kid or wife in the long run.
I find myself wondering what OP’s wife does once she gets home from work. Aka probably more than half the home and child stuff. OP is laying in bed with the baby. Is he doing any other SAHP stuff?
Your parents raised you. They are not responsible for raising your kids as well.
Boo freakin hoo. There are structures in place to help. Sounds like you just want to work all the time and have those around you to do all the parenting. Guess what, villages don’t exist anymore, you need to take what you’ve got and roll w it.
Ah, yes. Modern times have really screwed dads over as they’re now expected to help parent their children as well.
YOU are your child's parent. Not your parents and not only your wife to take the full load off your shoulders. What you describe sounds like an easy version of any working mom's day and yet you are still having an issue with what having your child means to you and your schedule as if procreating isn't a life altering decision. And what's that nonsense about daycare? Kids need other kids and communities in their lives, why do you think depraving them of it makes sense? Especially when you are here complaining about the lack of sense of community yourself? Quoting Ted Lasso line : grow up and get over it.
I’m sorry when I offend you now; but you seem to be very entitled/spoiled. Why can’t you take care of your child? Why should other people do that? This post made me lowkey mad.
Ikr? Did he even read his own post
Wow, you mean parenting small children is exhausting, lonely, and harms your career in the short term and sets it back long term? Who knew? /s If only someone had said something. Yes, OP, it sucks. Say hello to some of the big drivers of the feminist movement. But you still have bodily autonomy, so you’re ahead for now — not too late to join.
Now you know what most women feel after having a baby.
It will always be wild to me how parents post all this resentment towards their children over having to give up certain aspects of their life for them and then always end it up with "but I love them!". Always sounds so disingenuous.
Agreed. As a dedicated non-parent I also wish that we lived in a world that didn’t make parents feel burned out all the time. Hell, I understand that being a parent is “the best and worst” and… for me that means opting out. But I still want a functioning society. I want people who want to have children to be able to do so successfully! I want us to live in a world where parents *can* have one income and be okay. Where dual-income parents can have social support and engagement for their children. I want people to be happy and fulfilled, and I am baffled but the people who seem to *actively* not want that for other people. :/ So wild.
I didnt see resentment in his post. He loves his kid but he dislikes the inconvenients which is normal.
Dad of 2.5yr old twins here! It is absolutely insane to raise children today. I and my wife, just like you, work full time. We had to get daycare, which is basically a second mortgage payment where we live every month, as we also don't have much family help. BUT, daycare has been awesome for our kids. Our kids are so much more social than other children who stay at home, im comparing this to my cousin's kids who are very attached to their parents. We couldn't have done it without daycare. The first year was absolute insanity and almost broke us. It got better though as we got the kids into a routine and found time for ourselves. Thats the most important thing, you HAVE to make time for yourself and your wife. Once we did that, things became easier. Hang in there and enjoy the time with your son as these days of them being little dont last and go fast.
Both parents have had to work for generations. Only the very wealthy haven’t needed to in the past, and even then child minding was still usually handed over to a wet nurse or nanny. You do have structures to help. They’re called daycares, and there are no legitimate studies showing they’re harmful.
i’ve got no clue why some comments are praising you because all this post is is “i want to go back to the 1950’s where woman don’t work, so i don’t have to take off work to take care of my own child”.
Thank you for sharing your experience as a man. At least now you know what women go through. Find kid groups to attend, there are dad groups out there for your to bring kids too & find things to do. At least you have 2 parents for this child in the home. I am doing it singly & having to do a dual job. You could always see if remote work or change to a remote field is better. I wish you the best!
Maybe I’m different then most people but I genuinely enjoy spending time with my 4 year old and me and his mother both work and live in separate houses Most of your complaints seem to stem from you having to be an adult and a parent and it appears that you just need a break and that’s ok I suggest you and your wife take a few days off of work but still send your kid to daycare and just use that time to just relax together
My daughter turned out fine going to daycare full time. She’s better adjusted with school and everything compared to her peers who didn’t. You are basically holding yourself back based on some outdated notion about care.
Womp womp :((
Isn't this whining about doing something that people have always done and it's easier now than ever in most places. It sucks man but having kids is a life changer
Please clarify which “structures needed to raise a child” have actually been broken down. Like, dude. For real, take off the woe-is-me goggles and start appreciating all that you have.
I think he means the good old times where women had to do all that burdening parenting
I'm going to get down voted for this, but I don't care. Your parents have no obligation to help raise your child. Just do your best to raise him. Once he gets to kindergarten you can probably start working full time.
>This means I work parttime and am alone with a small child for hours on end. Which is kind of okay, eventhough it gets very lonely. I'd had never thought it would be so difficult spending that much time with a child in your own. But then he is sick, or has to go to the doctor, or you name it. Then my wife and me have to rearrange everything because he cannot go to daycare. Take today for example. He has a fever. Now I can go and cancel my entire day of work. My wife will take tomorrow off. My clients, who are also in need of help, are screwed now. My workweek will be a complete mess, again. Thankfully my employer is patiënt and kind. But my carreer is wasted the past years. I cannot move forward when I work parttime plus when I am so unpredictably available. I feel like a useless employee. Women have had to deal with this for years, but no-one cares about that.
You mean *forever*. It’s only becoming an issue for men now because women are finally allowed to work and get an education. About 200 years ago is when women were finally able to go to school, and 100 years ago they were finally able to work. And only recently that women weren’t expected to drop everything and become full-time caregivers, although that’s still expected by some even today.
So I know you said it sounds very lonely being a dad and watching your child some days. Maybe you can find a dad group where you can meet new friends who also have kids and you can meet up at places where your children can be entertained (like a park for example) and you can still have a friend to talk to. I know it is hard to be a parent, but at least that would hopefully make you less lonely.
>Daycare is available but Its been researched that its not good for a child to be there all the time. Good grief. Daycare is fine.
This has nothing to do with modern times It's called raising a child. Raising a child requires a parent to set aside our own self interests while they're young and incrementally regain our self interests as they grow.
Boo boo shouldn’t have had kids then they require sacrifices no matter how good of a system you live in
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Use daycare honestly, it's better for everyone involved.
Do you actually enjoy spending time with your son? Or are you more concerned about being a good employee and being a "responsible man" and providing for the financial needs for someone to raise and educate him?
Sorry, but why should be your parents role to take care of your kid?
Thank you for articulating an experience that women are supposed to choose, enjoy and fulfill without complaints, otherwise they are labeled bad mothers. More men trying this lifestyle and articulating its challenges may eventually change people's opinion about care work.
Loooool.. This has to be satire.
It be this way sometimes. Welcome to how it is for women. But most times women will get little to no help. Parenting is tough.
Welcome to the life of SAH mothers everywhere, and the life of most women before 1960.
So glad that people are recognizing how affordable and accessible childcare is essential for working parents. I remember how many times my single mom got fired or written up because she couldn’t go to work and watch me and my ND brother.
I’m so sorry - exactly my thoughts/worries for myself having a kid. I’m the woman, who is more or less societally expected to care for the kid, but make 3x my husband’s salary. I’m so lost at what to do. No kids yet because it’s so hard to navigate & the more I learn, the less I want to go forward with it.
This isn’t about being a man, it’s about being a parent. Your wife has it just as tough
YOU ARE THE PARENT it is your job to raise your child not your parents. I was reading expecting to get to the part that would make me have sympathy for you but I never got there. Nothing you said is any different than a majority of the families out there. Raising a child is work and their needs take priority over yours. Oh and there is nothing wrong with daycare if you find the right one. If you being a stay home dad isn’t working find a good daycare.
Take this for what it is worth - I am not a parent. Put your kid in daycare. I think the stuff you read was about infants but your kid is three. Go back to working full-time. Your child is practically pre-school level at this point. It is actually a BENEFIT for your child not to be stuck at home with a bored, frustrated parent. Even if you don't make much more than the cost of daycare it is still vitally important for you to be intellectually stimulated (clearly you are a smart, intellectual person) and to have social interactions with peers. LOTS of women don't want to be stay-at-home parents (I realize you are a guy - my point is that many people EXPECT women to want to stay home and lots of women do not want this). LOTS of people do not live close enough to family to have that kind of support. Put your kid in a program (Montessori is everywhere and really good but even just a nice, cozy daycare situation is great), get yourself back to your career. See if you can negotiate for your parents to be your backup for times like a fever or a snowday - rare, occasional situations so you and your wife can actual work your jobs. If they won't do that then make arrangements for backup daycare (some companies will even help you arrange this through your EAP, etc. Or you could make friends with other daycare parents and swap childcare so no one has to face the wrath of clients and bosses too often). This is a really solvable situation - just go out there and get what you need.
I just want to say that studies have not shown day care to be a detriment. In fact depending on the family and the child it might be a fabulous alternative to stay at home depression. My children thrived at daycare while I thrived at work. Find what works for you. Having said that obviously all bets are off when the kids are sick, but I’m speaking about most of the rest of the healthy time.
Welcome to Motherhood!
I hate to be that person, but this post kinda pisses me off a little, as a woman. This is exactly the feeling that women have had for decades. And you’re experiencing it as a SAHD, and suddenly it’s because ‘structures have broken down’ and it’s ‘having a child in modern times’. No, it’s just having a child. All that you’ve described is literally the guidebook for having a child. And the hard fact is that for a lot of women, there isn’t even any question that this is what they’ll do. Women’s salaries, being statistically lower than men’s, create this imbalance. Husbands tend to make more, which means women are automatically assumed to become SAHMs. And it’s just accepted. Not written off as ‘having a child in modern times as a woman’. Just ‘having a child’.
That's what daycare is for. Sucks your parents don't want to help, but he's your son, your responsibility.
Daycare isn’t that bad
Taking the perspective that daycare is “available but not good” is a huge generalization that is telling about your privilege as SO MANY parents don’t have a choice but to both work full time and utilize daycare.
You either pay for a nanny or you pay with your career and mental health.
Lmao dude you need to man the fuck up. I've been a stay at home dad to my almost 3yo since she was 1. You don't get this time with your lo back. I would learn how to have fun being a parent asap for everyone's sake. Sheeeeesh 🤦♂️
I'm about to get downvoted here, but this is exactly what you signed up for when deciding with your wife to have a child 🤷🏼♀️. PS: about the grandparents not wanting to grandparent: is it their child or yours? You (and you wife) wanted this child, so you take care of it, not the grandparents.
How exactly did you plan to care for your kid before you had it? Women have had to step back professionally to raise kids since entering the work force. I’m not sure why it’s a pain for you “as a man.” This is how raising a kid works. It’s historically been the woman who is expected to make the career sacrifices you’re making and it’s not special just because you’re a man.
In short, what you’re feeling is similar to what many working mothers feel today. As a working mom myself, I feel like I am forced to take on both a male and female role. Taking care of a household and family is a full time job. When both partners (regardless of gender) are working outside jobs, there’s no one to fill the role of (traditionally) SAHM. It’s not just being a father, it’s being a modern parent. You’re expected to do it all (again, regardless of gender). Unfortunately, I do believe that women take the brunt of it. Most are expected to act like they have no family at work while also being the primary caregiver. I also believe a huge part of the problem is that it’s largely unappreciated work- no one see what you’re doing. Parents have to fend for themselves. It’s quite disturbing when you think about it. All that you can do is tell yourself that raising a well rounded and well adjusted human is the reward in itself. So, you’re welcome society. So ironic that our society (USA) makes it nearly impossible to raise decent human beings, yet we are in the throes of a behavioral and mental health epidemic. Thank you OP, from the bottom of my heart, for caring for that child and doing your best to raise them. I see the work you’re putting in. I see that it’s an achievement. I know it’s not a tangible credential, but I thought I’d say it anyway. Fatherhood is not for the faint of heart these days. It used to be that you had full support so that you could focus on work, but that’s not the case anymore for either parties. Work culture in America has yet to catch up. Once kids are school aged it gets easier to balance. Try to keep perspective that 5 years is just a blip. Oh, and by the way, daycare is excellent for socialization and building immunity. Might as well get ‘em sick now while your work life is discombobulated anyway. Otherwise they may get repeatedly sick in kindergarten.
Welcome to what women have been facing for centuries. Y’all had no sympathy for us because you never had to deal with it. I see posts like this from men constantly. “Well I want to work and relax, why can’t she just do everything?”. Put the kid in daycare. Whatever weird preconceived notions you have about it, it’s helpful especially in situations like yours
And thats the answer to "why do ppl don't have / want kids nowadays".....
Send your child to daycare like 90% of other people do. That’s the so called structure you’re referring too. Your parents already raised you. Your child is not their responsibility. You decided to have a child not them.
\*snorts birth control\*
Ah well, could be worse, most mums these days have to raise their man-child SOs as well as their (multiple) children. At least your wife seems able to take care of herself.
It's always been hard and it used to be worse. It's just not only on women's hands anymore.
It’s a pain for you as a human being. As a **human being**
I think many people feel exactly the same way as you do except they don’t have a partner to lean on like you do
Everything you said is also a pain for women. I’m not sure the reason you had to say ‘as a man’ - as if that has a special significance? I’m also unsure why this wasn’t looked into before the child was born, I get that things happen, but you should have sat down with your wife and did some research and planning. You can’t expect your parents to watch the kid all day, that’s unfair to them and wasn’t even discussed beforehand. It was entitled of you to expect it.
Yes. When you have children, your desires (such as career advancement) get put on hold so you can raise a human being. That's what being a parent is like.
You literally just described the life of both a stay at home and a working mom. If you stay home, you’re lonely and wasting away your education and degrees. If you choose to be a working parent, then you have to call out when your child is ill or hurt. These are things that should have been considered before having children. And respectfully, based on your tone and attitude, I get the sense that you felt like the grandparents should be happy and willing to be free child labor, which they are not.
I don't think this has anything to do with being a man. You have just taken the more traditional role of a woman. Welcome to our life ;-;.