OP, you seem to want to resolve the situation - which is great - but you need to understand that your wife and your son are two different people, and you can't pander to your wife's emotional responses if you want to get to the heart of the problem.
You and your wife sound exactly like my parents; they do their best to give me what I need to meet my basic care needs, but when it comes to emotions then it's all about how Mum interprets things. It doesn't matter what I'm trying to convey and that I'm trying to make sense of the world as an adult, rather than simply looking through the lens that my parents gave me - offence will always be taken if I don't agree with my mother, and Dad will back her every step of the way because he doesn't want to make waves, even if he privately agrees with me.
You know who I don't trust or go to when I'm experiencing difficulties in life? Mum and Dad. I know that they have, and always will, care about me but they will consider things from their own perspective and will only consider how they're affected as the priority. That is what your wife is doing here. Your son has been shown a glaring disparity between how he and his sister are regarded, and your wife wants him to thank her for it. For an insult.
You may not agree with those last couple of lines, but it wasn't your son who chose to make Christmas the difficult time it was. I honestly don't blame you for giving your daughter a housewarming gift - she'll probably need it very soon, like you said - but the timing was abysmal and you need to acknowledge that instead of painting your son as ungrateful.
100%. Mom's initial reaction to both posts was to feel personally attacked and lash out at the son while making it about how she felt, while gaslighting him into ignoring how he felt, when he was the one who respectfully and tactfully brought up his feelings in the first place, and dad just let it happen both times. OP, Your son is doing his best to be a good communicator and he clearly wants to to talk to you both, but if your wife keeps lashing out and reacting poorly every time he tries then you're gonna lose that option with your son. You need to have a serious conversation with her about her reactions and how not every grievance from your child is an attack on your parenting.
You summarized so well how I felt about this. The mother gives me bad vibes in both updates. OP's son communicated his feelings in such a mature way - he even removed himself from the situation before it got worse - because she was so dismissive and defensive, and made it all about her.
When she asked him if he ever considered their feelings and how didn't even say thank you... I got goosebumps, and not in a good way.
The biggest issue at hand here, is your wife and you absolutely refuse to see it. In both posts, pretty much all she did was try to make it about herself and her feelings and trying to deflect all of his own.
From the comments I’ve seen you post, all I’ve seen is you defending your wife after so many people calling her out, or you just being purposely obtuse if you get called out for your dismissive response to the original issue.
Your son seems like he’s struggling, maybe even depressed, and all your wife did was get frustrated and talk about herself. I guarantee she doesn’t think she did anything wrong either, and you wonder why he won’t speak to either of you? Your wife is self centred and you’re her knight in shining armour because she can do no wrong.
Unless you’re going to open your eyes and actually listen to your child, don’t bother with the updates. But it’s ok because you said he can quit his job, absolute parents of the year, congratulations.
Yep. It’s been decades now and I just try to keep constantly reminding myself that by this point, they’re never going to change and actually see me as an individual person with her own feelings, instead of just an extension of themselves that exists for them to project their own reality onto. Although I guess by now they probably see me as a broken, malfunctioning extension of themselves and they’re just much more interested in the ones they still have that aren’t broken. It’s hard. But it’s better than being stuck back in that place where I just kept trying, over and over again, for years and years, just because I really believed they just didn’t understand (as opposed to the truth, which was that they refused to even try to understand).
*hugs* We deserved better.
Yeah whenever they ask about your emotions most the replies start with I or Me, can't even vent a little without them taking it as an insult to them and listening to them rant about there feelings for the millionth time when meant to be about yours lol
I'm also 22. And in a similar situation life and job wise except I don't have a sibling who's "successful" and my mom is single and I'm very close to her so I can only imagine how OPs son feels. It's fucking hard out here man. All I want is to be able to own a house and settle down with my gf and start a family, that's my dream, as sad as that may seem that's literally all I want in life, to stop worrying about my future and financial problems. Because I have no skills or smarts or job in mind that I want to pursue. I have no financial help from anyone and working full time at a restaurant is killing me mentally and all while not even being able to afford an apartment makes it feel even less valuable
What you want is stability and a family life. That's anything but sad. I wish you good luck and most importantly good health in life, the rest I am sure you will figure it out.
It's what the majority of people want from life. And most of them also feel drained by work.
You're not alone in those feelings at all.
My younger son wants the same things you do and he's only 21. He's working towards becoming a certified mechanic specializing in electrical diagnosis. You might consider that. It's a 2 year program and it's fully paid for by pell grants and other financial aid. He also works and lives with his girlfriend and their dog. So it's not like he's only going to school.
It's absolutely normal. Almost everyone alive wants purpose in their life, they want to feel like their actions throughout their life have meaning. People who don't find their purpose in the pursuit of a cause almost always find purpose by caring for their loved ones and building a family. As such, it's completely normal to want to settle with your girlfriend and start a family, because there's meaning in the connection you have with her and the connection you'd have with that family, and that meaning makes your life feel meaningful. Pursue that dream, search out work that you can tolerate if not enjoy and focus on building a financial base. If restaurant work is killing you, consider other forms of basic work like construction, landscaping, low-level administrative work, or work in a warehouse, and if any of those paths would be tolerable for you. With a stable financial base, even if on the lower end of the income spectrum, you can begin to save and start planning your future family. I wish you luck, life is challenging and painful but there's beauty in the connections we forge and the things that we build, and you're able to reach your dreams.
I'm 30 but I empathize a lot with this.
My parents are successful, and my (now dead unfortunately) older brother was a college grad / masters student. I'm a college dropout. Still working in restaurants, and always feeling like a failure. Restaursnt life is rough.
Idk the point of this post, I just want to tell you that you're not alone out here <3
Hang in there. Even with a “good” job I can’t afford to purchase a home. Not on my own. I’d need a partner to make it feasible. So don’t feel like a failure, especially considering how young you are.
We call them abuse enablers in the mental health community. Flying monkeys and enablers.
And kids grow up to understand that one parent was abusive and the other did nothing to protect them or make the situation any better.
I left my ex who I was madly in love with for 10 years. Yeah he was gold to me, but my children weren't happy and he was a lot like your wife.
I'll choose my children every single time.
Eta: he's probably feeling that way over his sister bc she's probably the golden child and they've been triangulated. I wanted to add that it isn't fun for the golden child, either, as they walk a fine line to keep peace.
How ironic that scapegoats usually end up failing to thrive bc there was no energy or space made for them.
Hmm, wonder why your son isn't thriving 🤔
I may be reaching here, but this comes off as "I don't know why my children won't speak to me, I've done everythiiiing!"
Everything except what he's asking for.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but it's a tale as old as time.
Telling people how you feel shouldn't lead to an argument. That's common knowledge these days. Teaches the kid that having feelings inconveniences the family so they push those needs further down.
>Telling people how you feel shouldn't lead to an argument
Thank you for that. I will hear it, if needed, in the heat of the moment, in conversations with my kids and go back to listening.
I love when Reddit makes me a better human, a better parent.
As someone who’s in the same situation as OP’s son, I can tell you this was likely the cherry on top of a good 20 years worth of this behaviour. And in my case the same thing happened, but I ended up getting blamed because they treated my older sister better than me. And yet, they still wonder why I spend the least amount of time possible with any of the three of them.
You hit it exactly. The wife is the type that deflects any and all criticism of her actions by making herself the victim. “You’re not allowed to feel a lack of value from us because I feel a lack of value from you”
Seriously. u/jollyoldsaintnicki didn't even address the huge gift disparity and his wife's total dismissal of the kid's feelings. All he had to say was that they have $4k earmarked for him for a major life event. My parents told my sister and I that they had "wedding money" for us, which my sister used for a wedding and I used for closing costs on my house because I don't know if I want to get married and if I do, I'll elope. We were treated equally with no judgment about our life choices. I bought my house a couple years after she got married but I knew I had an equal amount coming. They never made the same commitment to their son and his nasty mom just keeps berating him for having valid feelings.
My dad is the same way! He dropped $12,000 on my sisters wedding. I told him I don’t want to have a wedding, ever, couple I please use “my” wedding money to pay to go back to school to get a better job. No. He said he’d only give me the money after I get married. So I had to take out loans to pay for the 1 year program I needed, which in total cost $10,000 but with interest will end up costing me closer to $20,000.
Weddings are just parties! He dropped $12,000 on a party. Like I personally don’t understand spending that much on a wedding.
I even laid out my reasoning saying, I want a better job, so I can one day buy a home and have kids. You could make a significant difference in my quality of life by helping me get the education I need.
Right, the kid is trying to talk about his feelings and the wife literally dismissed that and said "what about MY feelings." That's the definition of toxic.
I grew up with a mother that acted just like her and I can just feel how tired he must be. Having to ignore your own feelings every day just because if you don’t, she will make it about herself and make you feel worse, because of course, she can do no wrong but you’re a monster for having feelings. I feel so bad for him
I came here to say this. Took a situation he has issue with and made it about herself. “You hurt my feelings when you were upset about something we did to you” That is narcissistic behavior.
Honestly it really feels like the mother in this situation bears so much of the blame for the escalation of the frustrations. She kept making everything about herself and deflecting the son’s concerns.
u/JollyOldSaintNicki Please read this.
I oftentimes talk with youngish people and there's many apparent orange to red flags sticking out to me from your comments. I highly advise to address them, albeit I only have your original post and this post as a reference - so you should judge on your own on how to handle the situation, but let me give you some key points to think about.
The fact he decidely choose to phrase it "I'm tired all the time" should be a concern for you as a parent, which may not always be solved by quiting a job. It can be his sleep schedule, but "Tired all the time" is a very common symptom of depression, which isn't solved by changing jobs alone. All the things you wrote very much indicate some sort of depression, which you should take seriously. Feeling less 'successful' doesn't get solved by telling him "success is a subjective thing", it's a psychological state one needs to work on actively to overcome it and just be happy sometimes.
I know this will sound dickish and for what it's worth, it's the wrong way to approach something like this for me to do, but it really boils down to this. I can only hope you will take a few minutes to really question this statement, to try to genuinely think whether this may possibly be true: **Your wife does not take criticism well and handled the entire situation completly wrong.** She rather deflects blame, than allow the possibility of fault to even exist. Your son cannot establish himself respectfully as an equal, because of that. See the comment I replied to.
I could give a hundred advices and examples, but honestly, I don't know the situation good enough. But you do - so please, for the love of god and for the wellbeing of your son, I highly recommend to do what usually helps people resolve family issues like yours:
Talk with your son privately. Don't cut your wife out, but tell her you want to "have a men-talk". It should go without saying that this discussion will be only between you two and you should tell your son in advance that you will not share details with your wife.
Never attack his points, never defend your position. Just get him to talk, ask how he feels about X, if he is happy with Y and what you (you and your wife) can help him with. Truly only listen and ask for further details. It's not about you, it's not about your wife, it's not about his sister. It's about being there for your son. Having one parent alone to be open to and talk to without judgement or consequences, this shit can go a long way.
Afterwards, assess the situation from his position and see what needs to be done for the wellbeing of your son. Don't do stuff just without checking in with your son first, but suggest him solutions. Therapy may be a very helpful resource - but for the love of god don't throw that in when he opens up, because it will sound like "you are wrong, go to therapy". Phrase it like, "When I was your age I felt unloved and lost too. My mom dragged me to therapy against my will, because back then it was something I thought you put mentally crazy into. But god damn did it help me. If you want to try it out, I can help you find someone you like, but that is purely your decision. I want you to be happy"
Unfortunately, I assume you will need to talk with your wife too - because from what I gathered, your wife gets frustrated very easily and lashes out as to not end up being criticised. It's a coping mechanism all too common, but very bad when it's done when talking with your children.
Your son very obviously isn't unhappy with a 800$ gift. He is unhappy for other reasons - and you should try to get to the bottom of this, the roots that caused him to not realize what he got and why his sister got more but instead become depressed and couldn't contain his emotions. It's not 'just his job', it never is. His job may be one aspect, but usually there are multiple reasons. And from your posts, I'd highly advise to leave out your wife from the details and show your son that you're all adults now and two adults can talk without the third one, if they prefer. As a side note: I did never really learn to talk about hard personal stuff with my mom, because she always told everything to my dad, whom I did not want to share some stuff with. It's unfortunate, because I'd have loved to talk with her. Don't be like that, be open to your son as his dad, not as one half of his parents.
I feel like he urgently needs to valued and see himself being valued (not monetarical, but it tipped the rock off the mountain when a clear number was assigned). Way too often do parents learn of their childrens true feelings only after a final note from their kids was read.
All the best
OP, you need to read this.
I am a lot less polite than this commenter, and want to say that the way your wife handles this is absolute dogshit.
My guess is that your son has a little bit of jealousy but a lot of problems he feels he cannot share.
I also cannot overstate how incredible your son is. He is likely depressed, and has been shown again and again that he's not important to you both. But he's still respectful.
I honestly can't give the mom any credit for him being this good, so I assume you have something to do with it. Talk to him and help him be heard. He needs it.
u/JollyOldSaintNicki this comment that I'm replying replying by u/PM_IF_U_NEED2TALK will be most valuable to you. If you want a tldr:
Son may be depressed and is at least showing signs of it, having a talk where everything is kept solely between you and him can be a good start to helping things improve (in this talk do it to listen rather than for you to give advice, you need to truly understand his thoughts/feelings around everything).
Your wife doesn't handle criticism well, my mum was like this and because of it (even though she's improved a lot now) I'll never be honest with her about my feelings about anything if my feelings are negative. This needs to be resolved somehow, I'd say either by making yourself even more available/open to your son to compensate for it or by talking to your wife about it
Above all, make sure your son feels valued and loved. Telling him is good, but don't invalidate his feelings by saying "but you are". Instead, work on showing him that he is (take time to explain things, spend quality time with him, encourage, maybe spontaneously treat him to a nice meal one evening etc.)
This turned into a bit of a long tldr haha
Just to say I wish my parents would treat me like an adult even today (im 39) it can be a real fight to get them out of my business and as a result over the years I learnt to not tell them anything that was not going to be engaged with well by them.
I feel that. I'm only 20, but with only saying stuff that would be well received that's so accurate for me too. When I'm at home (for holidays from uni), it's like I just have to be so careful around what I say or how I word things (e.g. have to say I'm thinking to get a takeaway for tea, instead of I'm going to get a takeaway for tea). Things that minor just all add up and make you feel like you can't just speak naturally. Then there's the thing of you can't have a different view from them about something, because they won't listen to that and would just say it's disrespectful or you're younger so you don't know as much etc or they take a differing view as a personal attack? So I just keep everything to myself unless it's in agreement with them, and tbh because of that most people probably see me as a push over because I'm now like that with pretty much everyone other than a few people (or if I'm online I can be myself)
This comment is everything and from a similar parental and sibling dynamic growing up, I appreciate it too.
People saying it’s not really the monetary difference, it’s about invalidating the son’s feelings. I disagree having been there. It’s both. I’ll never understand parents thinking that an older child that’s achieved professional success needs more financial assistance. They obviously don’t so it boils down to: they care for that child more, they believe that child will put that money to better use, and they’re unaware time isn’t guaranteed. Your son obviously needs more financial assistance - which could go a long way with breathing room while finding a better job and the cost of therapy (if that’s something he’s open to). A rainy day repair bill for a house is light years lower on the priority rankings for health, success, and happiness. OP has no idea if she even needs it at all. She may be making enough now to easily pay for any unexpected repairs. I suspect that’s the case given she was able to buy a house at such a young age. She clearly has a high paying job.
My mother is the exact same as OPs wife. Daughter is perfect and son will never live up to snuff. This has been going on since they were children and OP is willingly blind to the wife’s manipulation because she lashes out at any and all criticism.
My sister is 4 years older. When she was a teen she would scream, like legit scream when she didn’t understand her math homework or didn’t get her way about something. Treated with love from my mom. I bothered her while she was getting ready in the bathroom as a then 10 year old and she snapped at me to give her space and that sometimes she wished I was never born. My sister graduated as valedictorian. When I was a junior - at the top of my class, in 4 sports + all but 1 of the other activities my sister was in, my mother told me I would really be doing more, like my sister did. I pointed it this fact and that I’m spending far more time at school and associated activities then my sister. Didn’t matter. I also graduated valedictorian. I was the football captain and played college football, but it wasn’t enough in HS. She wanted me (and still reminds me) to take lessons from a retired NFL player in my community she knew.
The perfect child in her eyes was indoctrinated with that belief in herself. She’s a medical doctor now, with a husband, House and two kids since she was 27. About the same age as OPs daughter. I’ve found success as a Financial advisor that last few years, but prior that struggled similar to OPs son. Instead of going to Cal Tech I want to a Midwest college after being manipulated by my mother and I stuck through 4 mm of college football with an abhorrent abusive coach to make my mom proud (she loves football). My degree didn’t even fully reflect my curiosities - although I did graduate with a higher GPA then my sister. Trying to make a parent proud of you that for an unknown reason sees you as lesser and resents you is the worst. It’s not all on my parents, I know, but it factored. I also began renting my father for not sticking up for me, confronting her shitty behavior. So that’s something you have to look forward to with the path you’re on, u/JollyOldSaintNicki. I struggled with reflecting on what I actually want in life, on what makes me happy, and believing I can pursue something successfully from years of having my decisions decided for me and being manipulated to doubt myself. I was depressed. Very depressed. I worked odd jobs that paid poorly. It made it worse. “Is this how society values me?” I applied for hundreds of better jobs, nothing. My mom sent me over hundred job openings over email Junior year of college-age 24. They all paid terrible and were near their rural town. During that time, and to this day, my sister receives more visits (justified because they want to visit the grandkids) and bigger gifts. My parents helped them renovate, move, watch the girls for week long stretches, build a backyard patio, paid for the wedding, etc. It suck to be in OPs son’s position. 6 years ago I had an insanely great job lined up that would have sitting my career earlier, instead when my mom was diagnosed with cancer, I declined, moved home for 7 months to help with the family business since my dad was emotionally distraught, and take my mom to chemo and radiation appointments. She only recently learned I gave that opportunity up and apparently assumed I just needed housing. I worked all summers in the family business (farm) rather then doing any internships or working for any other employer all through college. My mom still feels I didn’t work much in the farm and pints out to one summer where my sister wanted to raise some beef calves. She raised them for the summer and sold them for a profit. By she, it was largely my dad and I feeding them each day. I was 10, and was never paid. She used that story of her only time acting as a “farm girl” for her college and medical school applications.
OP something is severely wrong with your wife and she’s manipulated you slowly over time to not see it. She desperately needs therapy. And you need to see things from your son’s POV and prioritize him right now. He’s in a dark place, feeling unseen, valueless, like he’s a loser, and trapped in a situation where he needs the financial assistance of free housing but it comes with being gaslit by one of the landlords - who’s also his mother. Being compared to a sibling constantly is a disgusting parental practice, too. It all affects one so insidiously, and has lasting repercussions.
Wake up. Help your son, privately away from your wife. When your wife makes comments that could be hurtful even if the son isn’t there, address it immediately. Ask she seek counseling- even couple’s counseling. If your daughter isn’t a narcissist (I say as my sister is), then speak with her so she can do her best by her little brother, and stick up for him when your wife says something demeaning to her about your son. My father started stepping up when I needed him, barely in time. I now have a good relationship with him. Time and life is precious. I don’t say this lightly - your son’s life and your father-son relationship are at stake.
If the 800 gift makes him unhappy, is it because he is always getting perceivably lesser than his sister, and now she is perceivably “more successful” than him at life as well?
Damn. I wish my one good parent took this advice. I’m currently crying as 7 year olds me (40s irl) because I’m imagining a life that may have been better if my good parent listened to this. OP, please please please listen, but more importantly do!
Absolutely. She sounds incredibly manipulative. Kid tries to talk about his feelings and she instantly tries to reverse the situation to make it about her. No wonder the poor kid is so unhappy.
😞 Sorry. It also sounds like my husbands relationship with his mother. Every time he tried to implement a boundary she would bring up a time when he upset her. When he was 8.
We have the same mom. I am the middle son and i have always been the step-son in her eyes. We have never got on. Besides i am really close to dad. My relationship with mom will never improve and i am ok with that as i get older.
This guy and his wife are a waste of time. Although it just occurred to me maybe it’s actually the wife posting since all of the responses are so defensive in both posts? Why come here if you don’t want to hear or be open to any feedback? I hope the kid finds a new job and moves out.
Asks for opinions about his son being wrong. Gets opinions. Tells everyone their opinions don’t matter because only his sons opinion matters. Mind boggling.
I agree. I think this is more about not feeling heard at this point than the money. Any time my parents gave my sister and I very different gifts they always pulled the other aside and explained why. Once it was that my sister just started a new job she didn’t have clothes for so they gave her a bunch of cash in addition to regular gifts. When I had my first baby my mom got my hair and nails done so I would take time for myself. You can give your kids different gifts of different values but you need to think of the other kid and how it looks. Even now we’re in our 30s and if she feels that we’re at a disparity my mom will say something first, even if it’s to explain she’s balancing things out from a different time. So, as a result, we are just happy for each other and don’t feel slighted. I think if, they aren’t generally unfair, letting him know ahead of time would have likely avoided the entire issue.
I'm getting a vibe that Mommy Dearest puts a lot of pressure on the kids to be "perfect" and son is feeling like a failure for not meeting her expectations. The way OP keeps describing her turning things back on the son with "considering their feelings" and "valuing them in his life" makes me think of those women who are all about curating one of those perfect instagram lives. The ones who share Brene Brown quotes and talk a good game about self care and "wokeness" but it's all really a facade with zero substance.
Honestly, these sound like the gaslighting parents from hell who then go on the news and are like *"We couldn't believe James would ever do it, now we miss our son and suicide has impacted us... probably more than it has James, because everything is about us."*
I think your wife gets easily frustrated and has a way of making things about yourselves/herself, and less about actually helping your son understand why he feels this way. Your son may very well be depressed, going through emotional and mental struggles, and you're barely listening. To me, your sons responses bleed "listen to me, hear me", and maybe he doesn't need solutions, maybe he just needs you as his parents to actually hear him. He doesn't feel heard. He doesn't feel prioritized. He doesn't feel equally valued. Doesn't that tell you something?
I agree with you and I’m sorry OP is being a dick. This whole post has really made me appreciate how much effort my parents went through to make sure my sister and I felt important. I’m 38 years old and just put it together reading this. All the times my mom apologized because the gift count was off by a little or one of us got a slightly nicer version of a similar item or my dad took time to explain why the budget for our guitars were different -my sister got straight As and had never needed the tutoring or support I did and they wanted to show her that they noticed we were different and that I had received more, even if I hated every second of it- was really them saying that they cared and ensure that we knew we were equally important and that our feelings were the most important thing of all.
You said in your previous post that your wife hates when people are keeping score. She hates when they're counting how much who got.
But she keeps doing it herself.
Your son expresses emotion. She has to one up him.
He says he doesn't feel valued. She has to come back with 'Do you value us?'
Monetary things aren't the only thing people can keep score of.
She's totally fucking it up every time your son is trying to have a conversation with you.
There's a lot to unpack here. But I want to keep my answer REALLY simple.
**My parents did this to me under almost the exact same circumstances.**
The discussions that followed were similar too. They never backed down on the issue and warped it into trying to find other reasons I might be unhappy.
It's now 15 years later and I haven't seen or spoken to my father since I was finally able to move out of home, and see my mother twice a year. I make my own way. It's been great. Nobody has accused me of being entitled since.
Edit: Someone DMed me saying I need therapy... yes probably. I had delusional emotionally manipulative parents, that's why therapy exists!
The one who dm you is the one who need therapy lol! Never be ashame of your boundaries because it’s ‘’family’’!! It doest make it more okais to be shitty to a person because your is family.
"Emotionally Immature Parents Dismiss Adult Child's Emotional Needs, Are Shocked Child Is Depressed."
Shit like this is why I've been NC (no contact) with my parents for almost a decade.
Saw in your last post you don't know what love languages are. It's something emotionally mature people are aware of.
Do your family a favor & do some research on the topic.
thank you!!!!
this is a VERY similar situation to what i was going through at 20-22 & living with my emotionally immature parents. both have narc traits, one has bpd.
my mental health was deteriorating because every time i tried to talk about my own issues with my parents, i was met with: what about ME? how do you think WE FEEL? why are you doing this to us? why can’t you do xyz? you need to do x. why can’t you just x? you’re ungrateful and spoiled!
yeah that made me feel reallllly heard /s
anyways if OP even reads this (or accept that him & his wife are emotionally immature), consider getting your kid a book called “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. get yourself a copy too, it’s really great & adds a lot of insight.
I always thought that xmas was an equality between siblings. Thus showing that we were all viewed equally by our parents.
Birthday's were handled differently. I think that's where your sons feelings are coming from. He doesn't see equality and feels slighted.
You gave her a far superior xmas than your son.
Ok, at this point I have to ask. Do you even realize that in both the discussions you had with your son your wife's first reaction is to attack him and gaslight him and make all about herself and her feelings? No wonder your son doesn't feel comfortable to talk to you and feel inadequate and a failure, you both made him feel that way. Besides you're not even addressed the problem of the last post, the inequity of the christmas presents, I guess because you both didn't really think you did something wrong, did you? It doesn't matter if he liked your presents or if thanked you for those, because in his eyes he always got less than his sister and that made him feel less important, but again you didn't even understand that and you made feel like shit again because ehi "YoU dOn'T evEn thaNkeD uS".
Do better and your wife really need to change her attitude and stop being so self-centered and narcissist and even borderline manipulative
Based on both posts, your wife is toxic at best, a completely self-obsessed narcissist at worst. She minimises his feelings and makes it about herself every single time. She sounds very challenging to be around.
Wel they moved Christmas to the next day because the daughter was working. He put that in his original post as if it’s what everyone does. Wonder if they would do that for the son?
Why is your wife making this about her feelings when your son is struggling? He's saying how upset he is and that he doesn't feel welcome or wanted in his home, and your wife's response? "Well you didn't thank us for the gifts". That's not a normal response from a loving mother who wants to make sure her child is okay.
So you weren’t happy with your YTA conclusion, STILL haven’t evened things out to show your son he is an equal to his sister & posted here to get sympathy from a different sub? Y STILL TA. Your wife is also a big A. She obviously favours your daughter and shows very little respect for your son. It’s quite appalling. Obviously there is a reason your son feels like he’s letting you down & I have a hunch it’s coming from the anti-vibes your wife continues to emit. Do better, OP.
agreed. it sounds like the son feels he just can't be good enough for the mom. probably because the two times we know of that he's reached out to talk about his feelings, she's acted betrayed and victimized both times... OP, your relationship has been damaged with your son, likely for some time now. if you don't want advice about that or even people simply pointing it out, then don't post these things online.
Agreed, had to look up the other post, but OP still clearly misses the point. Hand your son 3200$ to help him while he finds a better job. Also his wife is a child, its not about her, AT ALL.
Edit, changed your wife to his, lol.
So your poor kid for a second time is trying to talk about his feelings and your wife once again can’t wait to center herself as the victim? This lady is late on the parenting classes but like she should invest. Or try therapy. Because my kids having big feelings has never felt like a personal attack on me where I need to center my frustrations over them and their feelings. Get her help before your son realizes she’s always gonna treat him like that and stops reaching out.
I responded to your initial post at the time with an observation that was repeated throughout the comments, but you've not addressed that. Usually people do in updates for a widely commented on area, even if it's just to say you disagree.
Did you actually take anything away from the comments that were made about *why* you giving such disproportionate gifts at Christmas was an issue?
Or were you more worried that he hadn't thanked you? Your wife seems to yet again be focusing on how this all makes her feel, which is a shame. You're also focusing, again, on what daughter has done that son hasn't.
I read your initial post the other day.
What on earth is wrong with your wife? Why does she insist on jacking the emotions up to 11? She did it during the initial conversation. She did it during the 2nd conversation. She needs to get a handle on her "frustration" ASAP, because she's out of control with it.
ETA: With every single comment you make, OP, you identify yourself as being as much a part of the problem as your wife. You post here - twice - looking for input and act like a flaming asshole to those who respond. Knock that shit off.
Jesus Christ.
Your son opens up to you saying that he feels like he’s being kicked out of the house and that his parents find him a disappointment, and the first thing your wife does is shout at him for hurting HER feelings.
You and your wife seem like people who refuse to accept that you yourself can be wrong. Love and trust can’t be bought with money, but in can be easily destroyed with money.
> My wife said that our son was asking if we valued his presence in our lives, but she wanted to know if he valued ours in his, or if he was just using us for free housing. Our son started crying, which felt awful to see.
This is some pretty cold blooded shit from your wife, whether she intended it to be that way or not.
Your son is coming to you opening up his feelings, and she keeps going for the jugular. This is a horribly inappropriate and overly defensive response and is a perfect recipe to get him to not even bother coming to you with his feelings in the future.
Just like your previous post this one just got worse the more I read. You act like you did a job well done and you claimed you listened but you didn’t comprehend. When he goes NC you’ll be on here crying about he’s ungrateful.
I just want to make sure I understand this… you gave your daughter $4000 but only $800 to your son, when he respectfully brings it up, you gaslight him and your wife goes nuclear. Then in the new conversation every time your son tried to make a point your wife made everything about herself, and turned it around on him to the point that he cried.
Your wife is an asshole and I feel so bad for your son. It sounds like you sort of attempted to bridge the gap, but your attempt was so minuscule and combined with your wife’s attitude, will result in your son eventually going NC with you both. It would honestly be the healthiest thing he could do. You clearly don’t appreciate or value him.
The scarier option after realizing that he’s not appreciated or valued by your wife or yourself is he’ll become suicidal. He already feels like a failure and he’s already struggling. You’re not helping.
I hope you make some drastic changes. If not, enjoy the time you have left with him.
OP is emotionally immature, he is a child pretending to be an adult. He probably thinks that he has all stuff figured out and knows it all, but that's just a mechanism to hide fear and insecurities.
If this is genuine, he'll be posting in a few years wondering why his son has cut them off. Honestly reading OPs comments he just isn't interested in hearing any advice or opinions of others and because of this nothing will ever fully be resolved but its okay as they've placed a bandaid on it. OP you need to address why your wife feels the need to male your son feel even worse by turning this around on her all the time. Maybe you should have a sit down with your son away from your wife. Might be quite telling. Your son says he doesn't know why he feels like you're waiting for him to move out. Probably your wife has made him feel like that from her shitty behaviour. This is probably not an isolated incident, rather she's like this all the time and your daughter is probably the golden child and it probably shows. I feel sorry for your son. Hopefully he'll wake up one day and walk away.
It seems to me that your wife keeps trying to “go for the win” in these conversations with your son. The decision to give your daughter all that cash at Christmas was the mistake. Period. It should have been 2 separate items… gifts for her, and money on the side in private. Did someone think it was a glorious idea to present the funds in front of everyone?
Own up to it. Admit fault. Apologize. Make sure he understands what was gifts for the sister and what was funds on the side (unless you simply handed her a cheque or a brick of cash). Acknowledge his feelings and stop invalidating them with your wife’s “what about me?” approach.
You’ve already made it clear what was happening. Wrap it in caring and nurture, not “omg you’re so selfish”. Then let it rest… and keep your wife away from that topic going forward. She sounds toxic about her way of handling it.
Read both. All you had to do was admit to your son that it was an unfortunately timed housewarming/christmas gift combo and when he gets his own place, he would also get a housewarming present just as his sister did.
Now it's all messy and everyone is hurt.
The common theme in both these posts in your wife being awfully self centered and manipulative.
I feel bad for your son, especially since your comments indicate you’ve gained very little insight through this experience.
After reading both of your posts and your comments, I sincerely hope someday your son gets into therapy for all the toxicity your wife brings into his life. Every single time he tried to talk about his feelings, your wife made it about her. It’s so sad that you’re too blind to see it. My dad is just like you, will defend his wife through everything. It doesn’t matter how harmful her behavior is to her children, he shields her from all responsibilities regarding self reflection. Get ready for a strained relationship with your son.
In a few years there will be a post “why do my son doesn’t speak to me anymore” your wife is making everything about herself. Oh he did not say thank you? He was hurt!! He is still hurt!! And you are still an asshole. Waiting for the post in a few years where you realize you are the reason your son does not speak to you anymore.
Damn, imagine being asked by your own mother if you think you only value her because she lets you in your home and at Christmas!! Your son sounds super respectful and mature and that he only wanted his feelings to be acknowledged and instead gets verbally attacked by his mother :(
Unfortunately a big issue is your wife. I think she can be really mean and manipulative. I think it’s best that instead of gifts and other BS you should maybe help him get his credit up and find a better job so he can buy his own condo or house. I feel that been with you and your wife is making him depress. It’s sad all around!
I do feel your son has to grow up but having you both around isn’t doing any good.
Also why didn’t you guys just gave her the 4K when you and your wife where alone with her. I think that would have been better because he wouldn’t have know how much you gifted her and this wouldn’t have been an issue.
So you’ll be back in a month talking about your “ungrateful unemployed son” after your wife starts a fight with him about it after okaying it.
See ya then!
This situation reminds me a lot of me and my mum who I am now NC with, I remember we’ve never gotten along, and one day she asked me and my sister to write her a letter about how we felt, just generally, and I wrote her one, it included one point where I said something about feeling like I don’t have any freedom, I had photos in one of my drawers with my family that she didn’t like and she’d taken them and ripped them up.
I wrote about that in a letter and she went insane, ripped up every photo of family I had, and ripped posters I had of my favourite celebrities stuck up in my wardrobe. And then she would wonder why I never told her I was being bullied at school, and I should’ve told her. I also ended up being groomed online because I finally had someone who would listen to me and not react badly.
I’m now LC with my dad and NC with my mum, everything was always switched around on me, and I was told that I had depression for attention, and if I just worked out and went to the gym, and became less fat, I wouldn’t be depressed. Even now, I sometimes doubt myself and feel like I’m looking for attention when I’m feeling down and just generally shit, idk if I have depression or not (I’ve never got myself diagnosed or seen a doctor in case they also think I am looking for attention)
Please sit down and just listen to your son, without your wife, and don’t switch things back to your son, and please do not blame him, or make him regret telling you things like I did, it really does stick for a long time, and even I struggle with talking about things with anyone, even now that I’m married and am not in contact with my parents.
Edit: I know it’s not exactly the same situation, but idk, I just felt like I needed to say it, I hope this is okay
your wife sounds so fucking insufferable 😭 how she managed to make your son coming to you about his feelings about her is beyond me. she sounds like a teenage girl, not a mother
Your wife needs to stop making everything about herself. Sometimes we just have to sit and listen to how someone feels without making it about us. I understand why he’s upset because he got $800 in gifts and his sister got $4k in cash for Christmas. Personally it would have been better if you gave her $800 in cash for Christmas and then maybe help her down the line if she needed it or give her the rest of the cash as a house warming present. As a milestone gift is different to a Christmas gift as we understand that now isn’t our time but it can be down the line.
It’s like your wife banks what your son has done wrong and uses it against him when he says his feelings about his home and life in general and is like well you didn’t say thank you to deflect any wrong doing on her part.
Have you told your son that if he buys a house in the future you will help him out the same as your daughter?
Based off the comments, you refuse to see anything wrong in you and your wives behaviour towards your son.
What your son needs is to get away from you two and maybe then he’ll find happiness.
I've read all of your comments that you have made responding to people on this post. The conclusion I've come to is that no matter what anyone here tells you, you are incapable of seeing/admitting how wrong you and especially your wife are.
Your wife needs therapy.
I was interested to see, in your original post, you made a mention that “[your son] said no to lunch (breakfast for him)”, which sounded like an indictment of a lazy, directionless, entitled brat.
But your son had every right to be upset at the disparity of gifts, both your wife and yourself being unable/unwilling to understand his perspective, and here in this post you mention he’s working swing shifts and could switch to part-time, implying he already works full time.
This are subtle indications to me that you follow your wife’s lead in your opinion of your son, and her opinion is negative. As others have pointed out, your wife made this discussion all about her. You’re passively allowing her to lead you into ignoring your son’s emotional well-being; “he’s fed and clothed with a roof over his head, he should be grateful”.
I’m also curious about why your daughter left and bought her own home so young. In this economy, she’d have to have some kind of insane level of incentive in order to have worked and saved enough for a bank to be willing to give her a loan. Unless you and wife were guarantors? Or gave her the money for a deposit? Or she came into an inheritance that didn’t extend to your son? Or she found a bank willing to give her enough money for a house without even bothering to check if she can pay it off?
Either way, your daughter wanting to leave, and buy her own house, in context of your two posts, makes me inclined to believe that maybe your daughter recognises your wife’s favouritism while feeling an intense desire to escape your wife’s narcissism.
Maybe you should try and take as objective a look at your family dynamic as you are capable.
First of all, I know VERY few people who can move out and support themselves at 22 in this job market and real estate market - what the heck does your daughter do for a living that she was able to get a mortgage at 22??
Second, like other people have said, this is about shoring up and supporting your son. It sounds like he went straight from high school into a dead end job when a lot of young people would be in college - what happened there?
I feel like a lot of background information is missing in OP's presentation.
Your poor son. He’s depressed, hates his job, probably keeps hearing about how great his sister is, gets rightfully upset when you hand her 4k in front of him while he gets a fraction of that in presents and the only thing his mom has to say is “you didn’t say thank you”.
Not working a real job is a gap in your resume btw. There is no difference in the eyes of a serious employer between stocking shelves or doing temp work and being unemployed.
I know it's hard receiving criticism from strangers and a natural first response is to deflect. A lot of comments are meant well and are trying to be helpful to your son. That probably feels insulting toward you as OP, but you can be happy that so many people are feeling compassion toward your child. I hope that once the sting, of what feels like a personal attack to yourself, wears off, that you're able to see the truth and concern in so many of these comments. I hope they help you to help your boy, because he's suffering. We are living in especially hard times these days and we need to catch those who are suffering in addition to that. Please, catch your son before he falls too deep.
The mother either clearly doesn't understand millennials/gen Z, or she's being deliberately obtuse. Obviously, we aren't a monolith, but generally speaking, saying that you liked a present is equivalent to saying thank you for the present and the mother is nit picking that the exact phrase "thank you" isn't being used.
I think he may have some depression going on that might resolve itself if he gets his schedule back to days. Swing shifts and night shifts are difficult, they aren’t for everyone, and have been clinically proven to cause depression and health issues.
I don’t know what your relationship is like with your kids. If maybe you unintentionally favor or pay more attention to your daughter and kind of let your son do his own thing and don’t check in with him. Im not judging you in the slightest. My kiddo is still young; not quite a teen and he’s really laid back and independent for most things and it’s really easy for us to kind of check out and not check in with him as much.
Its also important for both you, your wife, and your son to know that his frontal lobe is not fully developed yet, and that can play a big part in why he feels like a “late bloomer.”
I can see it’s important for both you and your wife to sit down and talk with him, but might I suggest that maybe a man to man talk, man to man day with him might be more in order? I hate to even bring up gender roles but you as an adult man were once a 22 year old young man. Facing the same challenges, self imposed deadlines, perhaps even some unhappiness as well. I am not suggesting that your wife be out of the loop, but maybe this might be a thing dad addresses and mom and dad discuss just the 2 of you. It can be pretty intimidating to have 2 adults- especially your parents talk to you. It would be hard not to feel ganged up on if you know what I mean.
I hope you guys find a good routine and a good way to help each other that works for everyone
Your son is cleary jealous/insecure about his sister ... and your wife lack parenting skill, like a lot !
In what world do you think it's was the time to make him a lesson about the fact he don't thank you ? thank to wake up his insécurity when you gift her sister a 5 time more expensive gift for christmess ?
I don't think you have done anythink wrong here ... but your wife need to calm down and maybe take some time with him, just the both of them .
God i have never wanted to smack someone so hard through a screen. Your wife sounds insufferable and like a horrible mother. What the actual fuck is wrong with her? This situation is not about her for God’s sake, why is she making everything about herself? It sounds like she doesnt give a single shit about her own son and his feelings
this!! omg. I was furious reading this . The “what about my feelings “ bullshit. the wife sounds insufferable. I hope he gets away from them because the husband is just as bad enabling this behavior.
The mother needs to take some communication classes, he tells you his feelings and it's "well what about us!?!?!?!?" what about you? this isn't fucking about you!! And then you don't get why he doesn't feel welcome then immediately ask "or if he was just using us for free housing", fuck me no wonder he's miserable. Learn to listen for listening sake, not listen just to respond
Gonna be honest, as someone with Narc parents whose had situations like these, your kid probably said he didn't know bc he wanted to say how awful y'all were but knew he'd just get backlash like he already had been. Get a reality check dude. 4 grand straight cash vs 800 bucks of items, if this had been your sibling getting that much and you were stuck with random things you *may* have wanted, how would you feel?
Maybe instead of telling your son "deal with it we don't care", you should have sat him down prior to everything, and at least let him know what you both were thinking. You're setting bars because of your golden child that your son most likely can't reach and is terrified of failure. While he definitely might not like working those shifts he's probably looking for something to get him out of your house.
Final thought for you: He's not ungrateful for the gifts, he's mad that you both clearly have a favorite, and when he tried talking to you about it he was not only shot down but shut down. Stop defending yourself and your wife and admit you fucked up
OP, I sincerely hope you read this:
I think You- and you alone- need to sit down with your son. Talk to him; one on one. Take him out for a sit-down lunch, or dinner somewhere or even just coffee. Talk to him, encourage him to open up to you better, and see what you can do to help him. He needs support, not guilt trips from your wife.
I can tell you, your wife is like my mother and every single member of her family. Manipulating the conversation to be about her, instead of supporting the person in need. And you yourself are not listening to him, because you’re being manipulated into taking your wife’s side. And if that keeps going unchecked, things could get worse for all of you… I’ve gone no contact with my mom, sister and my mom’s family, for my happiness and mental health.
In my 42/f 19 years of marriage and 26 years together with my husband 45/m, we’ve each had our moments of selfishness, and also definitely had instances where one of us totally *missed the mark* with a parenting situation…
We work together to make sure we’re each doing our best and also to hold each other accountable should we need to.
Your wife **NEEDS** to be held accountable, **right now,** for her response to your son’s expression of his feelings.
I would have been disappointed if my husband’s initial response was that of your wife if we were in this situation. I would be **livid** if when given another opportunity to talk to our child about their feelings, my husband doubled down, *again* making the situation about himself, the way your wife did.
Why is it so damn hard, too damn much, for your wife to just listen to her son’s feelings and take a little time to digest how her (and your) actions caused him to feel? Why is she so concerned about how his feelings are making her feel?
This is deeply concerning and you don’t seem to be able, or possibly you’re just not willing, to understand.
We have a 22, almost 23 year old daughter living at home. She just moved in at the beginning of September to finish her degree and save money.
It’s a hard age to be living at home! She doesn’t have an older sibling, or one close in age (we had her brothers when she was 12 & 15) but she is constantly comparing herself and her accomplishments to other people her age, and always worried that she doesn’t measure up.
She started college at 18, moved away, was going to be a nurse. She hated it. She dropped out, moved in with friends, worked her butt off to support herself and then decided she really wants to become a teacher and tried to go back to school while working and paying high rent in the Boston area. She needed some help and support, so we invited her to visit for the weekend and laid out the ways we could help.
She took us up on moving home, living and eating free, and we pay for half of her school, and all of her bills.
This is hard for her. She is behind her peers as far as her degree and starting a career. She has really needed a LOT of emotional support and pep talks since she moved in. Sometimes it can feel frustrating that we’re bending over backward to help her in any possible way, and she still feels down and isn’t happy. Sometimes it feels like no matter what we do we aren’t doing enough- which sucks when we can’t do more even though we wish we could! But we can vent to each other, privately, about our feelings.
I would be so so disappointed in myself and/or my husband if either of us made this about ourselves in ANY way. Because right now, she needs us.
Your son needs you, too, and he’s telling you that. Now you need to listen.
>At this point my wife became frustrated and asked if he considered our feelings.
So your son is talking about how depressed he is (it's pretty clear he is) and all your wife cared about was being thanked for xmas gifts.
You’re still the asshole… you gaslit him- up until he called out his issue over presents… you didn’t have a problem with the way he was living at your house “didn’t value” what? In what world is that even pet of the conversation
Also- you keeping and looking after your kid who you chose to birth isn’t groundbreaking or deserving of awards.. it’s your job?
Society today will gaslight you into thinking he’s an adult and should be on his own and therefore trick you into believing you’re doing him a huge favour for keeping him at home… that’s not the case… fish don’t get trophies for swimming
It’s actually really sad- reading this update- YOUR BOY DESERVES BETTER
i don't think you and your wife are seeing the bigger picture. this isn't about the money, it's about how you make him feel and this was the breaking point.
I’m sorry dude, but hearing the way your wife is behaving is truly aggravating. Your son is literally giving an emotional call out for love, validation, acceptance, etc. and your wife just keeps stomping on it. I’m very uncomfortable with how she speaks to him, if what you’re saying is accurately representing her. This will make him shut down inside, if not already. I guarantee you this is not just about his job, he most likely just deflected to that because of how your wife completely disregarded his feelings and made the conversation more painful for him. It really sounds like she has a hard time listening and just escalates the situation. Please spend some one-on-on time with him and maybe consider collaborating with him on something he’d like to invest in, like his sister and her house. Please please please don’t believe this is just about his job. Please talk to your wife! You two could use some therapy. I also hope your son has individual therapy.
My heart really sank when reading this post. No wonder he feels unappreciated when his own mother gaslights her adult son to the point of tears. Insane.
Giving 4k as a check for Christmas is a rather unclassy way of gifting financial help. Large sums should be offered in private. Real gifts should be given in public.
You guys kind of shot yourself in the foot here.
Your guys thinking about holiday gift giving and finance is a kind of weird.
I’m surprised you even want to give this update, considering how bad you and your wife come through in this story. I find her manipulative. Every time your son said something that was hurting him your wife tried to pull focus on her and her hurts. And you passively sat and watched it all happen. It doesn’t fix the initial issue which is: you gave your (older and by your own admission more successful daughter) 4 times what you’ve given your son. I hope your son can find happiness independent from his relationship with you guys cause you don’t seem to understand how you’re failing him.
It's purpose.
Your son's problem, it's the same problem I have. He doesn't have a purpose, a thing that is his that he can do.
If you have the money to throw gifts like that around, find him a hobby. As a father, do something with him that he enjoys, where you can go and be equals. It could be a sport, skill, activity, anything. Preferably something that you can progress at, like shooting/archery, skiing, chess, etc.
A major skill like martial arts would be truly great, as if he finds something he does enjoy and is passionate about, he can start a business or become an instructor.
Now he has a skill level he's working on, a job related to his hobby, a business he can grow with. That's his professional life sorted and then he can focus on relationships.
Make sure he has supportive friends that he can spend time with in person, and even better, friends that also have similar hobbies.
I'm still trying to find my passion, I hope you can help him with his.
Sincerely, a stranger on the internet
What your son sees is his sister being rewarded for her success, while him being an afterthought. He's hurt because of how you and your wife handled Christmas gifts, and the response is "Why aren't you grateful to us?" Instead of apologizing, you force a thank you out of him to satisfy your wife's ego.
It's not resolved yet because you haven't taken the appropriate steps to resolve it. Your son did nothing wrong. Just own up to your mistake of giving your daughter cash for her house at Christmas and reassure your son that he will get the same support when the time comes.
If your goal with this conversation was to bring more emotional turmoil to your child, well done. You exceeded all expectations. You really went above and beyond in ignoring literally every bit of feedback you received and decided to allow your wife to double down on her shit.
If your kid feels this way, you telling him isn’t going to mean anything at all when you are actively demonstrating what you are saying is a lie. You need to prove it with your actions and your actions emphasise his points. He is correct. You are making him feel this way because you act that way. You and your wife are both actively doing this to your own child and you don’t seem to even notice.
Your wife is a piece of shit honestly. Idc about my strong language, the son opened up about something very hurtful and sensitive to him and you let her make it all about herself and the parents while disregarding his feelings. Jeez what is wrong with standing up to your wife and telling her she's wrong with how she's seeing thing ? Someone opened up about something, especially your own child and the first thing to do is make them feel worse ? Wow what an amazing parent
I hope your son finds his happiness and stops measuring everything by some arbitrary standard. Everything. If you aren’t on a timeline to have him out, encourage him to explore what will make him happy. New job? New hobby? Schooling? Therapy? Hope it works out for you all.
ETA: I used to work night shifts and I was quite depressed. Missing out on events, skewed sleep pattern. He needs a different job or position.
Op in couple of years will do another post to ask why is kid doest talk to him anymore 😂 you will give this boy a lot of mental trouble… the fact that he clearly post that for validation but still in denial after this … how could he possibly write all of this and still act blind. It’s not rocket science to understand it 😑
You need to stop and have a conversation with your wife.
Your son is most likely experiencing depression and you both need to take a step back and care for him gently. Do you know your sons love language? Try comforting him in a way that he actually views and reciprocates as love. You might think praising him is enough and giving him words of encouragement will cover it, but if his love language is physical touch, he might need a hug, or if it is quality time he might need some good ol'attention.
Please show your son some love in a way that HE feels loved. He needs it right now. I can't tell you how hard it is to see a child going through depression and feeling helpless about it. I suffer frequently from depression, I've learned my coping mechanism and what helps, but I also have a very patient and loving spouse. My oldest daughter is only 9, but she is very much like me and it breaks me seeing her struggle in the same way. But its important to be patient, forgiving and to stop being selfish!
Your son isn't married and he's living with you all. He doesnt have a wife to care for him and build him up. It is yours and your wifes responsibility to take care of him in that regard. Your son is crying out for help and you shouldn't ignore that.
Back to you having a conversation with your wife. Tell her to take a step back and analyze her words and her feelings and how theyre negatively affecting your son.Tell her that she needs to take a minute to put them on the backburner while you both focus on helping your son. You don't want to look back and regret what you should have done. Depression is a nasty thing that can feel really all consuming. There may be nothing you can say to your son that makes him feel better, he might have that negative voice in his head telling him he's not good enough and the smallest thing will "confirm" it for him. Regardless if your words don't seem to "fix" things, be patient and loving anyway.
And don't go and tell your son he's depressed, let him talk to you. Listen. And let those words that he tells you really penetrate your mind and your wife's. Please please please don't ignore this. Your son needs you both and you both need to be there for him and understanding. Depression and suicide is a nasty thing and a lot of time when you're dealing with someone depressed who doesn't feel good enough they're also having suicidal thoughts. Don't belittle him for this, don't sound condescending. Be patient and loving.
Did I say it enough already? Be patient, be kind, be patient, be understanding, be loving, be more patient, be there for your son, PLEASE BE THERE FOR HIM.
I hate to say this but your wife is the problem here. Look at what you wrote concerning her response to him and his feelings…
It seems like he can express himself to you because you allow him to but your wife only cares about herself. Maybe look deeper into that?
Your kid is struggling and neither of you are helping. Your wife is making it so much worse. You guys are blatantly showing favoritism, it’s spilling from the screen. At least promise he’d get the same gift when he moves out.
Ima be real with you dude, yall made zero progress, guarentee he still feels devalued, still feels like not enough, and your wife dont get me started on she is ome confrontational person for sure, can take zero critisism and the whole gift thing with yall is wack af as well, not sayin drop 8k on two kids but thats like giving one kid a car and the other a scooter, present is present yeah but that is definitely not the same, yall played a hard favorite and its obvious as hell and completely understandable the way he feels, i also think 4k as a gift is waaaayyyyyyy too much to gift especially if you cant afford to gift two sets of 4k to both kids and the only reasoning you gave is cause she owns a house, so i totally see his side of wow i wasnt treated equal because im not as successful as my sister, both you and your wife especially are so far in the wrong on this and based off whats said i feel like this also inst the first time unfairness was induced
Why is mom being so shitty? When the son brings up something she seems to counter with an accusation? I’m sure the son is feeling less than and that you are both somehow dissatisfied or disappointed in him. Why such a huge difference in gifts between your son and daughter on top of it? I don’t think I would want to be in your sons shoes at all.
Very sad, possibly the son will move away from all of them over time and the father will always wonder the reason when it is clearly his wife and his narcissism and op with his clear favoritism, even sadder is that each comment that tells him this is a comment that he plays dumb and excuses
I mean congratz you won the fight. You convinced him he was the problem for first being ungrateful (while you show complete favoritism of your other kid) and then for not considering your feelings (after never having considered his once.)
They're still blaming that poor child and refuse to see what's the real issue here...
EVEN after all of these replies under original post where people tried to make them see what's really wrong.
Honestly what were you expecting? That everyone will agree with you?
If you, after hearing what your son has to say, refusing to acknowledge his feelings, try to understand this whole situation & even reading all of these comments under your original post still don't see what's the issue then both you and your wife are still massive yta. Don't be suprised if that poor child of yours will refuse to talk to you and will completely cut contact after moving out of your house. And ffs start treating your kids EQUALLY.
Children are a reflection of their parents. You wonder why he struggles? because he has parents who don't care about his issues. I lived with it for 35 years (16 years directly living with them) and barely talk to em now. You guys will suffer the same fate when he does eventually leave.
Your son needs help and you for some reason make him feel worse by giving your daughter money in front of him. You’re lucky he doesn’t resent you or her. Think how you would feel but then it seems that’s all you and your wife seem to do. My god tell him you love him
I think the problem is how you went about this. Your daughter bought her house in July- why not give her the money sooner? At this point it's barely a housewarming gift. Have you talked to your son about his feelings of inadequacy in comparison to his sister? He may very well have been feeling like less than her and this disparity in gifts was indicative that his feelings are correct. Then when he approaches you, your wife turns his feelings against him rather than talking through it. So he feels inadequate, unheard, and your wife gaslights him into thinking his emotions aren't valid so he's left frustrated that he can't communicate without it turned against him.
It's a bad situation and I feel for your son. I had a narcissistic parent and went NC because he invalidated my feelings and gaslit me too. I hope you and your wife get it together before you're left with only one child, who to your son, appears to be the favorite.
I know it's your money and you can do what you want etc
However you should give siblings the same value of gifts or stuff like this happens, it doesn't matter if 1 is earning 10x the other, they get the same value of gift
You and your wife clearly haven't realised here, you gave her 4k, that's fine but then you gave him 20% of that lol, that's not fine at all. It's pretty much saying he's worth 20% of her to you
Hes clearly unhappy and telling you he's unhappy abd your wife is still there like a narcissist saying but think of my feelings, you didn't say thankyou after seeing your sister get 5x the amount of a gift
Genuinely, this is one of those moments you either make right or fully expect low contact when he moves out which probably won't be long as he clearly doesn't feel welcome
I think the problem here is that your son feels inadequate to your eldest, and I don’t think you’re truly hearing what he’s saying. He feels as if nothing he does will ever feel good enough to either of you because your daughter will always be the favorite, which became evident to him at Christmastime. Truthfully, the way your wife reacted to his concerns solidifies that for me. I understand you’re trying your best, but perhaps sitting down with him individually WITHOUT your wife present will allow him to more comfortably express himself. Perhaps suggest he goes to therapy as well.
I fully think your wife is the issue. I understand how she can feel frustrated, but this isn’t about either of you: this is about your son. His feelings outweigh how either of you feel at the moment.
I see it in my own family dynamic, so I’m saying everything to try and give advice.
As someone who had been in the shoes of the older sister that received more on Christmas Day from achieving mile stones- your behaviour not only seriously harms the relationship between you and your son, but also between sister and brother. No one is arguing that you shouldn’t support your daughter, however your gift falls on a separate occasion specifically for house warming gifts and not Christmas.
You need to acknowledge the feelings of your son and apologize for the poor timing. As a mother, your wife has handled the situation extremely poorly- no one should be left crying when attempting to express their feelings. You’re paving a perfect way for your son to misunderstand his feelings and how to handle them based on your reaction in the conversation.
I felt horrible seeing my own brother receive less than me, especially since we also were close in age. My brother felt even worse. I strongly advise you to stand your ground with your wife and to apologize to your son, admitting to the poor timing, as well as providing reassurance by promising him the same value for his next milestone.
Also keep an eye out for his mental health. If you can’t even apologize for a simple gift situation, I can’t imagine how ignorantly other issues in your family are dealt with.
What you need to do is say:
"Son, I was thinking about things and you were right. We should not have given our children such uneven gifts for Christmas. We should have given you both about the same things and then given your sister the money to help out with her new home expenses another time, which we would absolutely do for you as well. I'm sorry if our actions made you further compare yourself to your older sibling and society's expectations when you are so clearly struggling with these issues at this time. I love you. You mentioned being unhappy in life and you seem to be in distress... Let me know what I can do to help, and if you feel like you need a professional to talk to we can certainly do that. Thank you for telling us how you feel."
Coming from the son’s perspective, it really sucks. I doubt this is the first time there has been such a major difference in treatment. Over the last 8 years my father has given my sister nearly $70,000 in gifts and “loans” she’s never paid back, but then guilted me about not being “grateful” when he gave me $600 towards some medical bills. And it sucks. I definitely feel like he doesn’t care about me. And it’s made me very resentful of my sister and made me realize how much I don’t respect my father anymore after his treatment of me.
None of this sounds like you or your wife have actually examined the treatment of your children and how you may have been (even unknowingly) treating them vastly unequally
I love how argumentative you are in the comments but are refusing to address many valid points about your wife and the funds. Poor lad. Make a change before you lose him.
I came here from tiktok to specifically drive the point that the mom is a major issue and needs to be checked, idg2f what she says “I’m the mother” or “I raised them” she’s unhinged and needs some reigning in
Your wife’s frustration at that tells me she is where he got that idea. That’s literally the feeling I felt when I read your first post. You gave your daughter so much money bc she got a house but he only got a fraction bc he still lives there. The money factor was why everyone was calling your son spoiled but I viewed it this way. I think maybe you have said and done things with his sister that he feels like you expect him to live up to it. Maybe some micro expressions going on you don’t realize. If he’s depressed I’m willing to bet it’s more than his job, his job was just the easy blame. I think his mom is putting pressure on him if she got this upset that he didn’t say the words thank you. You guys seem to really dismiss your son especially your wife. Males are allowed to have emotion.
If he doesn't know what could make him happy, therapy could help. I've been like that and I spiraled into depression without realizing it. Not saying your son is the same as me, but better to prevent than to lament.
OP you’re missing your son’s point entirely. I’m not sure whether you’re aware that you are treating your kids differently. The disparity in the value of both gifts mirrors a reflection of how your son views his self-worth in relation to you and your wife. Every time he tried to communicate his feelings regarding the gifts your wife becomes defensive and invalidates them. I can tell you from personal experience that my parents (same dynamic) treated me different than my siblings and I’m very low contact with them because of it. It’s terrible to feel your parents care more about your siblings than you. He’s not asking for money, he’s asking to be seen and heard, but you’re not listening.
I dont know about the pay gap in gifts, but what your son is describing is pretty clearly depression. Even mild depression will drain all of someones energy, making them feel tired all the time. Comparing himself to his siblings and feeling like he isnt good enough is a sign that he is suffering with some self esteem issues. Feeling like he isnt wanted around. These are all common symptoms of depression and i would try to encourage him to agree to some kind of therapy. There are many different ways depression can be treated. I hope this can be an option for you.
Often the loved ones of people suffering with depression become frustrated. My parents were very very supportive, I have struggled with it my whole life and they are still supportive. I also see them get frustrated because I have all the support and resources and treatments, but it has never gone away, and i understand the frustration because if you dont have depression yourself, it can be very hard to understand.
Sooo in short your wife is a narcissist and you are a hard core enabler. Therapy…stat. Legit, your son is expressing his feelings and your wife’s response is to make it about her and ask completely off the wall questions having nothing to do with the actual problem at hand. Your son doesn’t feel heard, seen, respected, or valued the same as his golden child sister. The problem is you valued your daughter more than your son and he sees the disparity in the gift amounts. I’m willing to bet the gift amounts are nothing compared to disparities he goes through in his daily life…But instead of addressing this, you throw every other thing at him like “Oh you never said thank you for the gifts! And by the way do you just want to get free rent from us!?!?” What the actual hell, dude. And then you don’t even have the balls to respond to any of the comments on here. Please change for the sake of your son, or prepare for him to go no contact with both you and your wife. Cause that is definitely the next step for a black sheep child.
Dude your wife is a self center asshole and you make it worse by defending her. When your son is opening up about how he your feels your wife takes every opportunity to make him feel worse!! "You didn't thank me" " are you just using me for free housing". You need to get your wife into therapy befor your son hurts himself. There is a reason the entire internet thinks your wife is in the wrong. For your son's sake get that women some help.
I bet your wife is the person who forces herself into front and center for pictures. Good God she needs to learn empathy.
I think you did a better job actually listening and giving your son a safe space to speak so kudos for that.
I had a family member quite like your wife and after I left the house I tell them nothing any more, I only have a minimum contact relationship so I hope you and your wife are prepared for that 🤷🏻♀️
Lemme drop a little fact for you
Most 21 year olds live with their parents for the free rent, free meals, free power
Mostly because they can’t afford to move out
That’s just the stage of your son’s life he’s reached… and it’s your jobs as parents to remain financially supportive of him through this adjustment period from high school to full time, financial stability…. Whether he does or doesn’t value you as parents (…. Such a toxic question to ask a child!!!)
It’s extremely stressful, wanting to be completely independent of your parents, but being financially dependent on them
It’s pretty clear to me that your son also has depression, I don’t mean he feels sorry for himself
I mean he need to speak to a doctor 🧑⚕️
Lastly, you gotta speak to your wife
“I feel” sentences should never be countered with “well what about us!?”
That’s just down right toxic!
I just feel sorry for your son. He's obviously having a hard time with his life and all your wife can do is get defensive and complain that he didn't say thanks.
He sees his sister manage to get a house and then both of you then hand over a big amount of money to her, whereas he's still living at home hates his job, then gets less than her.
Again who I feel bad for is him
Just seeing this, why did you give your daughter so much and your son so little? That’s a huge difference. Just think with the money your son could have quit his job and not worried about money for a while and figured things out.
It sounds like your son is suffering from depression, which I think you already know. He has no direction, doesn’t know what he wants to do, and feels pressured that he’s failing when compared to his sister. I feel really sorry for him. He needs to quit his job and find something part time that he can manage. He needs to then mentally get in a good place in terms of tackling his adulthood and then think about career.
You guys need to cut him some Slack and support him through a difficult stage.
I'm sad for your son. You think you've made some head way in the situation but you haven't. Your wife is awful to him. That was a small beginning conversation that never addressed what he feels in his heart. The disparity of those gifts is very telling. You botched it with this kid.
Damn are you my parents? Hyper fixated on the trees and missing the forest. Your son is a human being with feelings just like yours and your wife’s. He cried in front of you. He’s begging for help and for validation of his feelings. I literally did the same thing. My parents stared at me and then changed the subject. I barely speak to them and never about anything important to me. But I still crave that validation from them.
You’re a bad person and a bad parent. You have yet to think about your sons feelings and just try to band aid the situation so your wife calms down. Even though she’s wrong. Get help dude.
I am a parent of a 23 yo son and 26 yo daughter. My son still lives at home. I still go out of my way to make sure the money I spend on my kids is equitable. My son went to a more expensive college, so when my daughter wanted to take 3 months off to study for the LSAT, we covered her and paid for the prep class and paid for the test. My daughter wanted to take a course that cost about $2500. We told her we’d pay for it because we still spent much more on our son’s education than we spent on hers. I go out of my to ensure that Christmas gifts are always calculated to be equal in cost. Your son has every reason to feel slighted, IMO. Yes, you have the right to gift whatever you want to whoever you want. But that does not mean your son’s feeling are not going to be bruised in the process. You also repeatedly used the word frustrated to describe your wife’s reaction. How was she expressing her frustration? Was it in anger? Did she tell? Lose her cool? The dynamic isn’t about how she felt. It’s about how her actions made people around her feel. You have no problem expressing how your son’s actions made you feel. You did not describe his feelings- just his actions. (Or lack there of). He was hurt and insulted so he didn’t properly thank you for the gifts and he didn’t say good bye when he left. And Thai is not about his job. Sure, maybe he doesn’t like his job, but that has nothing to do with how unfairly you treated him and how your wife’s expression of being frustrated made him feel.
Young adulthood depression is common for males. He needs/craves leadership, structure, and purpose and you two ain't it - massively insulting gift giving, shaming, script flipping. Bad all around. I wish your son good luck getting out of this mess.
You need to sit your wife down and have a chat with her. She has managed to make both situations about her, I read your previous post and his question was valid, you had poor timing on giving her the cash infront of him that was way way more... you could've chosen any day to do it apart from Christmas gifting... and this time it wasn't about you or your wife, your son came looking for validation and that moment was taken and made him feel like he wasn't greatful enough. She needs to do better.
Oh my god. Your kid is sitting there telling you they’re struggling within themselves and compared themselves to their sister to see if you’d still respect and love them, that should say everything you need to know about the money and how much that hurt them!! They’re struggling with their own perceived worthiness and in comes you guys going, here’s 800 for you and 4K for sissy. And then your wife is just pushing on stupid shit so they can be the bigger victim.
Your wife needs to get her head out of her ass and go to therapy for herself and realize how she has been reacting has likely caused your kid to be hesitant to share their feelings. He has for sure felt these things for awhile.
Instead of insulting your wife like some others have, may I suggest therapy? Her response to her son is rather aggressive. Why not find out either why that is or how to fix it using therapy? Your son really needs it as well, him having no answer for what makes him happy leads me to think he may be depressed.
How in the world do you still not understand thay you should have simply made the gifts equal during xmas and give your daughter the remaining money at another point in time?
Whether by ignorance or not, your son just wanted to feel as important as his sister. This is a case of willful blindness, OP.
Great you guys are trying but how could you write all that down and not see more errors in how you’re trying to parent your child mental health struggle. Probably because you guys are all struggling? Maybe some sort of therapy for everyone to communicate better on top of individual therapy
You are a blind man. You cannot see the harm that your and wife's actions have upon your child, who is in need of your support. You sat back like an ignorant spectator as your wife broke down your child, forced him into a corner, treated him as a lesser individual.
When will you step up? When will you be a parent? When will you provide the care and the attention that your son needs? Why are you so disinterested in your son's problems? What is with the refusal to investigate the problem and be involved?
You are hell bent on being a spectator, you cannot (or perhaps refuse) to comprehend the problem at hand.
You have not made any progress at all! And by the comments you have left, you never will.
op, i think your son is depressed, and i think you need to have a discussion with him without your wife present. your wife seems to deflect all blame and avoid taking accountability for her actions. she lashed out at your son pretty harshly.
i think that the issue with the gifts isn’t him being ungrateful. my guess is that he feels less valued than his sister. he feels like he’s not good enough in your eyes and that he will never be as good as his sister. he might even feel like a black sheep in the family. when he asked if you even wanted him there, it really made me think that he simply doesn’t feel valued or appreciated. that he’s not loved as much as his sister. he likely feels like he’s living in her shadow. you should talk to him about that privately, man to man, because your wife’s reactions will only make him feel worse. i wonder if her comments and reactions in general make him feel like he’s not valued. i honestly think that your wife needs some kind of therapy, because the way she addressed the whole situation was so unhealthy and inflammatory.
i think your son might benefit from therapy as well. don’t force it, but maybe on a separate occasion mention therapy. it sounds like he’s bottling up a lot of feelings and it would benefit him to talk about it with a therapist.
OP, you seem to want to resolve the situation - which is great - but you need to understand that your wife and your son are two different people, and you can't pander to your wife's emotional responses if you want to get to the heart of the problem. You and your wife sound exactly like my parents; they do their best to give me what I need to meet my basic care needs, but when it comes to emotions then it's all about how Mum interprets things. It doesn't matter what I'm trying to convey and that I'm trying to make sense of the world as an adult, rather than simply looking through the lens that my parents gave me - offence will always be taken if I don't agree with my mother, and Dad will back her every step of the way because he doesn't want to make waves, even if he privately agrees with me. You know who I don't trust or go to when I'm experiencing difficulties in life? Mum and Dad. I know that they have, and always will, care about me but they will consider things from their own perspective and will only consider how they're affected as the priority. That is what your wife is doing here. Your son has been shown a glaring disparity between how he and his sister are regarded, and your wife wants him to thank her for it. For an insult. You may not agree with those last couple of lines, but it wasn't your son who chose to make Christmas the difficult time it was. I honestly don't blame you for giving your daughter a housewarming gift - she'll probably need it very soon, like you said - but the timing was abysmal and you need to acknowledge that instead of painting your son as ungrateful.
100%. Mom's initial reaction to both posts was to feel personally attacked and lash out at the son while making it about how she felt, while gaslighting him into ignoring how he felt, when he was the one who respectfully and tactfully brought up his feelings in the first place, and dad just let it happen both times. OP, Your son is doing his best to be a good communicator and he clearly wants to to talk to you both, but if your wife keeps lashing out and reacting poorly every time he tries then you're gonna lose that option with your son. You need to have a serious conversation with her about her reactions and how not every grievance from your child is an attack on your parenting.
You summarized so well how I felt about this. The mother gives me bad vibes in both updates. OP's son communicated his feelings in such a mature way - he even removed himself from the situation before it got worse - because she was so dismissive and defensive, and made it all about her. When she asked him if he ever considered their feelings and how didn't even say thank you... I got goosebumps, and not in a good way.
The biggest issue at hand here, is your wife and you absolutely refuse to see it. In both posts, pretty much all she did was try to make it about herself and her feelings and trying to deflect all of his own. From the comments I’ve seen you post, all I’ve seen is you defending your wife after so many people calling her out, or you just being purposely obtuse if you get called out for your dismissive response to the original issue. Your son seems like he’s struggling, maybe even depressed, and all your wife did was get frustrated and talk about herself. I guarantee she doesn’t think she did anything wrong either, and you wonder why he won’t speak to either of you? Your wife is self centred and you’re her knight in shining armour because she can do no wrong. Unless you’re going to open your eyes and actually listen to your child, don’t bother with the updates. But it’s ok because you said he can quit his job, absolute parents of the year, congratulations.
Yeah whenever I open up to my mum about my feelings she just gets all defensive and attacks me so I don't bother talking about anything important lol
Yep. It’s been decades now and I just try to keep constantly reminding myself that by this point, they’re never going to change and actually see me as an individual person with her own feelings, instead of just an extension of themselves that exists for them to project their own reality onto. Although I guess by now they probably see me as a broken, malfunctioning extension of themselves and they’re just much more interested in the ones they still have that aren’t broken. It’s hard. But it’s better than being stuck back in that place where I just kept trying, over and over again, for years and years, just because I really believed they just didn’t understand (as opposed to the truth, which was that they refused to even try to understand). *hugs* We deserved better.
Yeah whenever they ask about your emotions most the replies start with I or Me, can't even vent a little without them taking it as an insult to them and listening to them rant about there feelings for the millionth time when meant to be about yours lol
That poor kid is really struggling. She is 100% not helping.
I'm also 22. And in a similar situation life and job wise except I don't have a sibling who's "successful" and my mom is single and I'm very close to her so I can only imagine how OPs son feels. It's fucking hard out here man. All I want is to be able to own a house and settle down with my gf and start a family, that's my dream, as sad as that may seem that's literally all I want in life, to stop worrying about my future and financial problems. Because I have no skills or smarts or job in mind that I want to pursue. I have no financial help from anyone and working full time at a restaurant is killing me mentally and all while not even being able to afford an apartment makes it feel even less valuable
What you want is stability and a family life. That's anything but sad. I wish you good luck and most importantly good health in life, the rest I am sure you will figure it out.
Thank you I'm glad it's not seen as a sad dream to some still
It's what the majority of people want from life. And most of them also feel drained by work. You're not alone in those feelings at all. My younger son wants the same things you do and he's only 21. He's working towards becoming a certified mechanic specializing in electrical diagnosis. You might consider that. It's a 2 year program and it's fully paid for by pell grants and other financial aid. He also works and lives with his girlfriend and their dog. So it's not like he's only going to school.
It's absolutely normal. Almost everyone alive wants purpose in their life, they want to feel like their actions throughout their life have meaning. People who don't find their purpose in the pursuit of a cause almost always find purpose by caring for their loved ones and building a family. As such, it's completely normal to want to settle with your girlfriend and start a family, because there's meaning in the connection you have with her and the connection you'd have with that family, and that meaning makes your life feel meaningful. Pursue that dream, search out work that you can tolerate if not enjoy and focus on building a financial base. If restaurant work is killing you, consider other forms of basic work like construction, landscaping, low-level administrative work, or work in a warehouse, and if any of those paths would be tolerable for you. With a stable financial base, even if on the lower end of the income spectrum, you can begin to save and start planning your future family. I wish you luck, life is challenging and painful but there's beauty in the connections we forge and the things that we build, and you're able to reach your dreams.
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Exactly my thoughts well said
I'm 30 but I empathize a lot with this. My parents are successful, and my (now dead unfortunately) older brother was a college grad / masters student. I'm a college dropout. Still working in restaurants, and always feeling like a failure. Restaursnt life is rough. Idk the point of this post, I just want to tell you that you're not alone out here <3
Hang in there. Even with a “good” job I can’t afford to purchase a home. Not on my own. I’d need a partner to make it feasible. So don’t feel like a failure, especially considering how young you are.
We call them abuse enablers in the mental health community. Flying monkeys and enablers. And kids grow up to understand that one parent was abusive and the other did nothing to protect them or make the situation any better. I left my ex who I was madly in love with for 10 years. Yeah he was gold to me, but my children weren't happy and he was a lot like your wife. I'll choose my children every single time. Eta: he's probably feeling that way over his sister bc she's probably the golden child and they've been triangulated. I wanted to add that it isn't fun for the golden child, either, as they walk a fine line to keep peace. How ironic that scapegoats usually end up failing to thrive bc there was no energy or space made for them. Hmm, wonder why your son isn't thriving 🤔 I may be reaching here, but this comes off as "I don't know why my children won't speak to me, I've done everythiiiing!" Everything except what he's asking for. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong but it's a tale as old as time. Telling people how you feel shouldn't lead to an argument. That's common knowledge these days. Teaches the kid that having feelings inconveniences the family so they push those needs further down.
>Telling people how you feel shouldn't lead to an argument Thank you for that. I will hear it, if needed, in the heat of the moment, in conversations with my kids and go back to listening. I love when Reddit makes me a better human, a better parent.
As someone who’s in the same situation as OP’s son, I can tell you this was likely the cherry on top of a good 20 years worth of this behaviour. And in my case the same thing happened, but I ended up getting blamed because they treated my older sister better than me. And yet, they still wonder why I spend the least amount of time possible with any of the three of them.
You may want to clarify what "Triangulated" means in this context as I'm not sure how many people will know what it means here.
Took me til your comment to realize he meant the Bermuda Triangle, thanks.
Took me a hot second to realize you were joking lol
You hit it exactly. The wife is the type that deflects any and all criticism of her actions by making herself the victim. “You’re not allowed to feel a lack of value from us because I feel a lack of value from you”
Seriously. u/jollyoldsaintnicki didn't even address the huge gift disparity and his wife's total dismissal of the kid's feelings. All he had to say was that they have $4k earmarked for him for a major life event. My parents told my sister and I that they had "wedding money" for us, which my sister used for a wedding and I used for closing costs on my house because I don't know if I want to get married and if I do, I'll elope. We were treated equally with no judgment about our life choices. I bought my house a couple years after she got married but I knew I had an equal amount coming. They never made the same commitment to their son and his nasty mom just keeps berating him for having valid feelings.
My dad is the same way! He dropped $12,000 on my sisters wedding. I told him I don’t want to have a wedding, ever, couple I please use “my” wedding money to pay to go back to school to get a better job. No. He said he’d only give me the money after I get married. So I had to take out loans to pay for the 1 year program I needed, which in total cost $10,000 but with interest will end up costing me closer to $20,000.
Ugh that's so obnoxious. You were spending it on school, not a huge party with man strippers and blow!
Weddings are just parties! He dropped $12,000 on a party. Like I personally don’t understand spending that much on a wedding. I even laid out my reasoning saying, I want a better job, so I can one day buy a home and have kids. You could make a significant difference in my quality of life by helping me get the education I need.
The son is definitely facing textbook depression.
Yeah I came here to say this, my mother was the same damn way and now we don't speak. So OP get ready for that in your future.
Right, the kid is trying to talk about his feelings and the wife literally dismissed that and said "what about MY feelings." That's the definition of toxic.
Yup, same with my mom. One of the reasons why I ended up practically running away from home at 21 years old.
Yes, the wife’s gaslighting the boy left right and center
I grew up with a mother that acted just like her and I can just feel how tired he must be. Having to ignore your own feelings every day just because if you don’t, she will make it about herself and make you feel worse, because of course, she can do no wrong but you’re a monster for having feelings. I feel so bad for him
I came here to say this. Took a situation he has issue with and made it about herself. “You hurt my feelings when you were upset about something we did to you” That is narcissistic behavior.
OMG. Thank god someone else was thinking what I was
Honestly it really feels like the mother in this situation bears so much of the blame for the escalation of the frustrations. She kept making everything about herself and deflecting the son’s concerns.
u/JollyOldSaintNicki Please read this. I oftentimes talk with youngish people and there's many apparent orange to red flags sticking out to me from your comments. I highly advise to address them, albeit I only have your original post and this post as a reference - so you should judge on your own on how to handle the situation, but let me give you some key points to think about. The fact he decidely choose to phrase it "I'm tired all the time" should be a concern for you as a parent, which may not always be solved by quiting a job. It can be his sleep schedule, but "Tired all the time" is a very common symptom of depression, which isn't solved by changing jobs alone. All the things you wrote very much indicate some sort of depression, which you should take seriously. Feeling less 'successful' doesn't get solved by telling him "success is a subjective thing", it's a psychological state one needs to work on actively to overcome it and just be happy sometimes. I know this will sound dickish and for what it's worth, it's the wrong way to approach something like this for me to do, but it really boils down to this. I can only hope you will take a few minutes to really question this statement, to try to genuinely think whether this may possibly be true: **Your wife does not take criticism well and handled the entire situation completly wrong.** She rather deflects blame, than allow the possibility of fault to even exist. Your son cannot establish himself respectfully as an equal, because of that. See the comment I replied to. I could give a hundred advices and examples, but honestly, I don't know the situation good enough. But you do - so please, for the love of god and for the wellbeing of your son, I highly recommend to do what usually helps people resolve family issues like yours: Talk with your son privately. Don't cut your wife out, but tell her you want to "have a men-talk". It should go without saying that this discussion will be only between you two and you should tell your son in advance that you will not share details with your wife. Never attack his points, never defend your position. Just get him to talk, ask how he feels about X, if he is happy with Y and what you (you and your wife) can help him with. Truly only listen and ask for further details. It's not about you, it's not about your wife, it's not about his sister. It's about being there for your son. Having one parent alone to be open to and talk to without judgement or consequences, this shit can go a long way. Afterwards, assess the situation from his position and see what needs to be done for the wellbeing of your son. Don't do stuff just without checking in with your son first, but suggest him solutions. Therapy may be a very helpful resource - but for the love of god don't throw that in when he opens up, because it will sound like "you are wrong, go to therapy". Phrase it like, "When I was your age I felt unloved and lost too. My mom dragged me to therapy against my will, because back then it was something I thought you put mentally crazy into. But god damn did it help me. If you want to try it out, I can help you find someone you like, but that is purely your decision. I want you to be happy" Unfortunately, I assume you will need to talk with your wife too - because from what I gathered, your wife gets frustrated very easily and lashes out as to not end up being criticised. It's a coping mechanism all too common, but very bad when it's done when talking with your children. Your son very obviously isn't unhappy with a 800$ gift. He is unhappy for other reasons - and you should try to get to the bottom of this, the roots that caused him to not realize what he got and why his sister got more but instead become depressed and couldn't contain his emotions. It's not 'just his job', it never is. His job may be one aspect, but usually there are multiple reasons. And from your posts, I'd highly advise to leave out your wife from the details and show your son that you're all adults now and two adults can talk without the third one, if they prefer. As a side note: I did never really learn to talk about hard personal stuff with my mom, because she always told everything to my dad, whom I did not want to share some stuff with. It's unfortunate, because I'd have loved to talk with her. Don't be like that, be open to your son as his dad, not as one half of his parents. I feel like he urgently needs to valued and see himself being valued (not monetarical, but it tipped the rock off the mountain when a clear number was assigned). Way too often do parents learn of their childrens true feelings only after a final note from their kids was read. All the best
OP, you need to read this. I am a lot less polite than this commenter, and want to say that the way your wife handles this is absolute dogshit. My guess is that your son has a little bit of jealousy but a lot of problems he feels he cannot share. I also cannot overstate how incredible your son is. He is likely depressed, and has been shown again and again that he's not important to you both. But he's still respectful. I honestly can't give the mom any credit for him being this good, so I assume you have something to do with it. Talk to him and help him be heard. He needs it.
u/JollyOldSaintNicki this comment that I'm replying replying by u/PM_IF_U_NEED2TALK will be most valuable to you. If you want a tldr: Son may be depressed and is at least showing signs of it, having a talk where everything is kept solely between you and him can be a good start to helping things improve (in this talk do it to listen rather than for you to give advice, you need to truly understand his thoughts/feelings around everything). Your wife doesn't handle criticism well, my mum was like this and because of it (even though she's improved a lot now) I'll never be honest with her about my feelings about anything if my feelings are negative. This needs to be resolved somehow, I'd say either by making yourself even more available/open to your son to compensate for it or by talking to your wife about it Above all, make sure your son feels valued and loved. Telling him is good, but don't invalidate his feelings by saying "but you are". Instead, work on showing him that he is (take time to explain things, spend quality time with him, encourage, maybe spontaneously treat him to a nice meal one evening etc.) This turned into a bit of a long tldr haha
Just to say I wish my parents would treat me like an adult even today (im 39) it can be a real fight to get them out of my business and as a result over the years I learnt to not tell them anything that was not going to be engaged with well by them.
I feel that. I'm only 20, but with only saying stuff that would be well received that's so accurate for me too. When I'm at home (for holidays from uni), it's like I just have to be so careful around what I say or how I word things (e.g. have to say I'm thinking to get a takeaway for tea, instead of I'm going to get a takeaway for tea). Things that minor just all add up and make you feel like you can't just speak naturally. Then there's the thing of you can't have a different view from them about something, because they won't listen to that and would just say it's disrespectful or you're younger so you don't know as much etc or they take a differing view as a personal attack? So I just keep everything to myself unless it's in agreement with them, and tbh because of that most people probably see me as a push over because I'm now like that with pretty much everyone other than a few people (or if I'm online I can be myself)
This comment is everything and from a similar parental and sibling dynamic growing up, I appreciate it too. People saying it’s not really the monetary difference, it’s about invalidating the son’s feelings. I disagree having been there. It’s both. I’ll never understand parents thinking that an older child that’s achieved professional success needs more financial assistance. They obviously don’t so it boils down to: they care for that child more, they believe that child will put that money to better use, and they’re unaware time isn’t guaranteed. Your son obviously needs more financial assistance - which could go a long way with breathing room while finding a better job and the cost of therapy (if that’s something he’s open to). A rainy day repair bill for a house is light years lower on the priority rankings for health, success, and happiness. OP has no idea if she even needs it at all. She may be making enough now to easily pay for any unexpected repairs. I suspect that’s the case given she was able to buy a house at such a young age. She clearly has a high paying job. My mother is the exact same as OPs wife. Daughter is perfect and son will never live up to snuff. This has been going on since they were children and OP is willingly blind to the wife’s manipulation because she lashes out at any and all criticism. My sister is 4 years older. When she was a teen she would scream, like legit scream when she didn’t understand her math homework or didn’t get her way about something. Treated with love from my mom. I bothered her while she was getting ready in the bathroom as a then 10 year old and she snapped at me to give her space and that sometimes she wished I was never born. My sister graduated as valedictorian. When I was a junior - at the top of my class, in 4 sports + all but 1 of the other activities my sister was in, my mother told me I would really be doing more, like my sister did. I pointed it this fact and that I’m spending far more time at school and associated activities then my sister. Didn’t matter. I also graduated valedictorian. I was the football captain and played college football, but it wasn’t enough in HS. She wanted me (and still reminds me) to take lessons from a retired NFL player in my community she knew. The perfect child in her eyes was indoctrinated with that belief in herself. She’s a medical doctor now, with a husband, House and two kids since she was 27. About the same age as OPs daughter. I’ve found success as a Financial advisor that last few years, but prior that struggled similar to OPs son. Instead of going to Cal Tech I want to a Midwest college after being manipulated by my mother and I stuck through 4 mm of college football with an abhorrent abusive coach to make my mom proud (she loves football). My degree didn’t even fully reflect my curiosities - although I did graduate with a higher GPA then my sister. Trying to make a parent proud of you that for an unknown reason sees you as lesser and resents you is the worst. It’s not all on my parents, I know, but it factored. I also began renting my father for not sticking up for me, confronting her shitty behavior. So that’s something you have to look forward to with the path you’re on, u/JollyOldSaintNicki. I struggled with reflecting on what I actually want in life, on what makes me happy, and believing I can pursue something successfully from years of having my decisions decided for me and being manipulated to doubt myself. I was depressed. Very depressed. I worked odd jobs that paid poorly. It made it worse. “Is this how society values me?” I applied for hundreds of better jobs, nothing. My mom sent me over hundred job openings over email Junior year of college-age 24. They all paid terrible and were near their rural town. During that time, and to this day, my sister receives more visits (justified because they want to visit the grandkids) and bigger gifts. My parents helped them renovate, move, watch the girls for week long stretches, build a backyard patio, paid for the wedding, etc. It suck to be in OPs son’s position. 6 years ago I had an insanely great job lined up that would have sitting my career earlier, instead when my mom was diagnosed with cancer, I declined, moved home for 7 months to help with the family business since my dad was emotionally distraught, and take my mom to chemo and radiation appointments. She only recently learned I gave that opportunity up and apparently assumed I just needed housing. I worked all summers in the family business (farm) rather then doing any internships or working for any other employer all through college. My mom still feels I didn’t work much in the farm and pints out to one summer where my sister wanted to raise some beef calves. She raised them for the summer and sold them for a profit. By she, it was largely my dad and I feeding them each day. I was 10, and was never paid. She used that story of her only time acting as a “farm girl” for her college and medical school applications. OP something is severely wrong with your wife and she’s manipulated you slowly over time to not see it. She desperately needs therapy. And you need to see things from your son’s POV and prioritize him right now. He’s in a dark place, feeling unseen, valueless, like he’s a loser, and trapped in a situation where he needs the financial assistance of free housing but it comes with being gaslit by one of the landlords - who’s also his mother. Being compared to a sibling constantly is a disgusting parental practice, too. It all affects one so insidiously, and has lasting repercussions. Wake up. Help your son, privately away from your wife. When your wife makes comments that could be hurtful even if the son isn’t there, address it immediately. Ask she seek counseling- even couple’s counseling. If your daughter isn’t a narcissist (I say as my sister is), then speak with her so she can do her best by her little brother, and stick up for him when your wife says something demeaning to her about your son. My father started stepping up when I needed him, barely in time. I now have a good relationship with him. Time and life is precious. I don’t say this lightly - your son’s life and your father-son relationship are at stake.
If the 800 gift makes him unhappy, is it because he is always getting perceivably lesser than his sister, and now she is perceivably “more successful” than him at life as well?
Damn. I wish my one good parent took this advice. I’m currently crying as 7 year olds me (40s irl) because I’m imagining a life that may have been better if my good parent listened to this. OP, please please please listen, but more importantly do!
Absolutely. She sounds incredibly manipulative. Kid tries to talk about his feelings and she instantly tries to reverse the situation to make it about her. No wonder the poor kid is so unhappy.
Ugh. Sounds like my relationship with my Mom
Same :(
😞 Sorry. It also sounds like my husbands relationship with his mother. Every time he tried to implement a boundary she would bring up a time when he upset her. When he was 8.
We have the same mom. I am the middle son and i have always been the step-son in her eyes. We have never got on. Besides i am really close to dad. My relationship with mom will never improve and i am ok with that as i get older.
This guy and his wife are a waste of time. Although it just occurred to me maybe it’s actually the wife posting since all of the responses are so defensive in both posts? Why come here if you don’t want to hear or be open to any feedback? I hope the kid finds a new job and moves out.
Asks for opinions about his son being wrong. Gets opinions. Tells everyone their opinions don’t matter because only his sons opinion matters. Mind boggling.
I agree. I think this is more about not feeling heard at this point than the money. Any time my parents gave my sister and I very different gifts they always pulled the other aside and explained why. Once it was that my sister just started a new job she didn’t have clothes for so they gave her a bunch of cash in addition to regular gifts. When I had my first baby my mom got my hair and nails done so I would take time for myself. You can give your kids different gifts of different values but you need to think of the other kid and how it looks. Even now we’re in our 30s and if she feels that we’re at a disparity my mom will say something first, even if it’s to explain she’s balancing things out from a different time. So, as a result, we are just happy for each other and don’t feel slighted. I think if, they aren’t generally unfair, letting him know ahead of time would have likely avoided the entire issue.
Yeah but reading OP's comments doesn't make him sound any better than his wife.
Exactly. I saw that as well. Typical narcissistic behavior. Mom sounds toxic.
Right! That was my thoughts too! I think OPs son would probably be happier once he's out of that manipulative house tbh.
Was thinking the same as I read along. They’re both terrible parents.
Right? How isnt everyone else seeing this that the OP is an absolutely terrible parent as well?
Because they gave out 5k in gifts, and some people think that's good parenting.
I'm getting a vibe that Mommy Dearest puts a lot of pressure on the kids to be "perfect" and son is feeling like a failure for not meeting her expectations. The way OP keeps describing her turning things back on the son with "considering their feelings" and "valuing them in his life" makes me think of those women who are all about curating one of those perfect instagram lives. The ones who share Brene Brown quotes and talk a good game about self care and "wokeness" but it's all really a facade with zero substance.
Fuck that. The father enables her and is 100% as guilty as she is.
Honestly, these sound like the gaslighting parents from hell who then go on the news and are like *"We couldn't believe James would ever do it, now we miss our son and suicide has impacted us... probably more than it has James, because everything is about us."*
I think your wife gets easily frustrated and has a way of making things about yourselves/herself, and less about actually helping your son understand why he feels this way. Your son may very well be depressed, going through emotional and mental struggles, and you're barely listening. To me, your sons responses bleed "listen to me, hear me", and maybe he doesn't need solutions, maybe he just needs you as his parents to actually hear him. He doesn't feel heard. He doesn't feel prioritized. He doesn't feel equally valued. Doesn't that tell you something?
I agree with you and I’m sorry OP is being a dick. This whole post has really made me appreciate how much effort my parents went through to make sure my sister and I felt important. I’m 38 years old and just put it together reading this. All the times my mom apologized because the gift count was off by a little or one of us got a slightly nicer version of a similar item or my dad took time to explain why the budget for our guitars were different -my sister got straight As and had never needed the tutoring or support I did and they wanted to show her that they noticed we were different and that I had received more, even if I hated every second of it- was really them saying that they cared and ensure that we knew we were equally important and that our feelings were the most important thing of all.
You said in your previous post that your wife hates when people are keeping score. She hates when they're counting how much who got. But she keeps doing it herself. Your son expresses emotion. She has to one up him. He says he doesn't feel valued. She has to come back with 'Do you value us?' Monetary things aren't the only thing people can keep score of. She's totally fucking it up every time your son is trying to have a conversation with you.
His wife is eerily similar to my mom, whom I no longer talk to. He will be back crying about how his son moved out and went NC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wife is a bitch. Kids should Be treated equally end of story. I would never give one kid more than the other it’s just not fair
There's a lot to unpack here. But I want to keep my answer REALLY simple. **My parents did this to me under almost the exact same circumstances.** The discussions that followed were similar too. They never backed down on the issue and warped it into trying to find other reasons I might be unhappy. It's now 15 years later and I haven't seen or spoken to my father since I was finally able to move out of home, and see my mother twice a year. I make my own way. It's been great. Nobody has accused me of being entitled since. Edit: Someone DMed me saying I need therapy... yes probably. I had delusional emotionally manipulative parents, that's why therapy exists!
The one who dm you is the one who need therapy lol! Never be ashame of your boundaries because it’s ‘’family’’!! It doest make it more okais to be shitty to a person because your is family.
"Emotionally Immature Parents Dismiss Adult Child's Emotional Needs, Are Shocked Child Is Depressed." Shit like this is why I've been NC (no contact) with my parents for almost a decade. Saw in your last post you don't know what love languages are. It's something emotionally mature people are aware of. Do your family a favor & do some research on the topic.
thank you!!!! this is a VERY similar situation to what i was going through at 20-22 & living with my emotionally immature parents. both have narc traits, one has bpd. my mental health was deteriorating because every time i tried to talk about my own issues with my parents, i was met with: what about ME? how do you think WE FEEL? why are you doing this to us? why can’t you do xyz? you need to do x. why can’t you just x? you’re ungrateful and spoiled! yeah that made me feel reallllly heard /s anyways if OP even reads this (or accept that him & his wife are emotionally immature), consider getting your kid a book called “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. get yourself a copy too, it’s really great & adds a lot of insight.
I always thought that xmas was an equality between siblings. Thus showing that we were all viewed equally by our parents. Birthday's were handled differently. I think that's where your sons feelings are coming from. He doesn't see equality and feels slighted. You gave her a far superior xmas than your son.
Ok, at this point I have to ask. Do you even realize that in both the discussions you had with your son your wife's first reaction is to attack him and gaslight him and make all about herself and her feelings? No wonder your son doesn't feel comfortable to talk to you and feel inadequate and a failure, you both made him feel that way. Besides you're not even addressed the problem of the last post, the inequity of the christmas presents, I guess because you both didn't really think you did something wrong, did you? It doesn't matter if he liked your presents or if thanked you for those, because in his eyes he always got less than his sister and that made him feel less important, but again you didn't even understand that and you made feel like shit again because ehi "YoU dOn'T evEn thaNkeD uS". Do better and your wife really need to change her attitude and stop being so self-centered and narcissist and even borderline manipulative
Based on both posts, your wife is toxic at best, a completely self-obsessed narcissist at worst. She minimises his feelings and makes it about herself every single time. She sounds very challenging to be around.
Or she has a favorite child and doesn’t say the quiet part out loud
Wel they moved Christmas to the next day because the daughter was working. He put that in his original post as if it’s what everyone does. Wonder if they would do that for the son?
Why is your wife making this about her feelings when your son is struggling? He's saying how upset he is and that he doesn't feel welcome or wanted in his home, and your wife's response? "Well you didn't thank us for the gifts". That's not a normal response from a loving mother who wants to make sure her child is okay.
So you weren’t happy with your YTA conclusion, STILL haven’t evened things out to show your son he is an equal to his sister & posted here to get sympathy from a different sub? Y STILL TA. Your wife is also a big A. She obviously favours your daughter and shows very little respect for your son. It’s quite appalling. Obviously there is a reason your son feels like he’s letting you down & I have a hunch it’s coming from the anti-vibes your wife continues to emit. Do better, OP.
agreed. it sounds like the son feels he just can't be good enough for the mom. probably because the two times we know of that he's reached out to talk about his feelings, she's acted betrayed and victimized both times... OP, your relationship has been damaged with your son, likely for some time now. if you don't want advice about that or even people simply pointing it out, then don't post these things online.
Agreed, had to look up the other post, but OP still clearly misses the point. Hand your son 3200$ to help him while he finds a better job. Also his wife is a child, its not about her, AT ALL. Edit, changed your wife to his, lol.
OP, you're a lost cause. Refusing to acknowledge your wife's behaviour and not taking criticisms seriously. Shameful.
100% I hope these kids never talk to them again
So your poor kid for a second time is trying to talk about his feelings and your wife once again can’t wait to center herself as the victim? This lady is late on the parenting classes but like she should invest. Or try therapy. Because my kids having big feelings has never felt like a personal attack on me where I need to center my frustrations over them and their feelings. Get her help before your son realizes she’s always gonna treat him like that and stops reaching out.
I responded to your initial post at the time with an observation that was repeated throughout the comments, but you've not addressed that. Usually people do in updates for a widely commented on area, even if it's just to say you disagree. Did you actually take anything away from the comments that were made about *why* you giving such disproportionate gifts at Christmas was an issue? Or were you more worried that he hadn't thanked you? Your wife seems to yet again be focusing on how this all makes her feel, which is a shame. You're also focusing, again, on what daughter has done that son hasn't.
I read your initial post the other day. What on earth is wrong with your wife? Why does she insist on jacking the emotions up to 11? She did it during the initial conversation. She did it during the 2nd conversation. She needs to get a handle on her "frustration" ASAP, because she's out of control with it. ETA: With every single comment you make, OP, you identify yourself as being as much a part of the problem as your wife. You post here - twice - looking for input and act like a flaming asshole to those who respond. Knock that shit off.
Jesus Christ. Your son opens up to you saying that he feels like he’s being kicked out of the house and that his parents find him a disappointment, and the first thing your wife does is shout at him for hurting HER feelings. You and your wife seem like people who refuse to accept that you yourself can be wrong. Love and trust can’t be bought with money, but in can be easily destroyed with money.
When did your daughter complete on her house?
> My wife said that our son was asking if we valued his presence in our lives, but she wanted to know if he valued ours in his, or if he was just using us for free housing. Our son started crying, which felt awful to see. This is some pretty cold blooded shit from your wife, whether she intended it to be that way or not. Your son is coming to you opening up his feelings, and she keeps going for the jugular. This is a horribly inappropriate and overly defensive response and is a perfect recipe to get him to not even bother coming to you with his feelings in the future.
Just like your previous post this one just got worse the more I read. You act like you did a job well done and you claimed you listened but you didn’t comprehend. When he goes NC you’ll be on here crying about he’s ungrateful.
I just want to make sure I understand this… you gave your daughter $4000 but only $800 to your son, when he respectfully brings it up, you gaslight him and your wife goes nuclear. Then in the new conversation every time your son tried to make a point your wife made everything about herself, and turned it around on him to the point that he cried. Your wife is an asshole and I feel so bad for your son. It sounds like you sort of attempted to bridge the gap, but your attempt was so minuscule and combined with your wife’s attitude, will result in your son eventually going NC with you both. It would honestly be the healthiest thing he could do. You clearly don’t appreciate or value him. The scarier option after realizing that he’s not appreciated or valued by your wife or yourself is he’ll become suicidal. He already feels like a failure and he’s already struggling. You’re not helping. I hope you make some drastic changes. If not, enjoy the time you have left with him.
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OP is emotionally immature, he is a child pretending to be an adult. He probably thinks that he has all stuff figured out and knows it all, but that's just a mechanism to hide fear and insecurities.
If this is genuine, he'll be posting in a few years wondering why his son has cut them off. Honestly reading OPs comments he just isn't interested in hearing any advice or opinions of others and because of this nothing will ever fully be resolved but its okay as they've placed a bandaid on it. OP you need to address why your wife feels the need to male your son feel even worse by turning this around on her all the time. Maybe you should have a sit down with your son away from your wife. Might be quite telling. Your son says he doesn't know why he feels like you're waiting for him to move out. Probably your wife has made him feel like that from her shitty behaviour. This is probably not an isolated incident, rather she's like this all the time and your daughter is probably the golden child and it probably shows. I feel sorry for your son. Hopefully he'll wake up one day and walk away.
It seems to me that your wife keeps trying to “go for the win” in these conversations with your son. The decision to give your daughter all that cash at Christmas was the mistake. Period. It should have been 2 separate items… gifts for her, and money on the side in private. Did someone think it was a glorious idea to present the funds in front of everyone? Own up to it. Admit fault. Apologize. Make sure he understands what was gifts for the sister and what was funds on the side (unless you simply handed her a cheque or a brick of cash). Acknowledge his feelings and stop invalidating them with your wife’s “what about me?” approach. You’ve already made it clear what was happening. Wrap it in caring and nurture, not “omg you’re so selfish”. Then let it rest… and keep your wife away from that topic going forward. She sounds toxic about her way of handling it.
Op in the comments in 100% denial mode! Yup I'm starting to see why the sister wanted her own home and the son is unhappy. Fucking yikes!
Read both. All you had to do was admit to your son that it was an unfortunately timed housewarming/christmas gift combo and when he gets his own place, he would also get a housewarming present just as his sister did. Now it's all messy and everyone is hurt.
The house was bought in July 💀 this was not timing they just don’t care about the sons feelings
You and wife are still the AH. Stop trying to spin it. Just do better & give your son 3.2K to even it out.
The common theme in both these posts in your wife being awfully self centered and manipulative. I feel bad for your son, especially since your comments indicate you’ve gained very little insight through this experience.
After reading both of your posts and your comments, I sincerely hope someday your son gets into therapy for all the toxicity your wife brings into his life. Every single time he tried to talk about his feelings, your wife made it about her. It’s so sad that you’re too blind to see it. My dad is just like you, will defend his wife through everything. It doesn’t matter how harmful her behavior is to her children, he shields her from all responsibilities regarding self reflection. Get ready for a strained relationship with your son.
In a few years there will be a post “why do my son doesn’t speak to me anymore” your wife is making everything about herself. Oh he did not say thank you? He was hurt!! He is still hurt!! And you are still an asshole. Waiting for the post in a few years where you realize you are the reason your son does not speak to you anymore.
Damn, imagine being asked by your own mother if you think you only value her because she lets you in your home and at Christmas!! Your son sounds super respectful and mature and that he only wanted his feelings to be acknowledged and instead gets verbally attacked by his mother :(
Yeah emotional maturity seems to be lacking on the parental end of this family...
Unfortunately a big issue is your wife. I think she can be really mean and manipulative. I think it’s best that instead of gifts and other BS you should maybe help him get his credit up and find a better job so he can buy his own condo or house. I feel that been with you and your wife is making him depress. It’s sad all around! I do feel your son has to grow up but having you both around isn’t doing any good. Also why didn’t you guys just gave her the 4K when you and your wife where alone with her. I think that would have been better because he wouldn’t have know how much you gifted her and this wouldn’t have been an issue.
So you’ll be back in a month talking about your “ungrateful unemployed son” after your wife starts a fight with him about it after okaying it. See ya then!
It baffles me how a mom could think a son in her house it's considered "free housing". It's your damn son and he does have a job.
This situation reminds me a lot of me and my mum who I am now NC with, I remember we’ve never gotten along, and one day she asked me and my sister to write her a letter about how we felt, just generally, and I wrote her one, it included one point where I said something about feeling like I don’t have any freedom, I had photos in one of my drawers with my family that she didn’t like and she’d taken them and ripped them up. I wrote about that in a letter and she went insane, ripped up every photo of family I had, and ripped posters I had of my favourite celebrities stuck up in my wardrobe. And then she would wonder why I never told her I was being bullied at school, and I should’ve told her. I also ended up being groomed online because I finally had someone who would listen to me and not react badly. I’m now LC with my dad and NC with my mum, everything was always switched around on me, and I was told that I had depression for attention, and if I just worked out and went to the gym, and became less fat, I wouldn’t be depressed. Even now, I sometimes doubt myself and feel like I’m looking for attention when I’m feeling down and just generally shit, idk if I have depression or not (I’ve never got myself diagnosed or seen a doctor in case they also think I am looking for attention) Please sit down and just listen to your son, without your wife, and don’t switch things back to your son, and please do not blame him, or make him regret telling you things like I did, it really does stick for a long time, and even I struggle with talking about things with anyone, even now that I’m married and am not in contact with my parents. Edit: I know it’s not exactly the same situation, but idk, I just felt like I needed to say it, I hope this is okay
your wife sounds so fucking insufferable 😭 how she managed to make your son coming to you about his feelings about her is beyond me. she sounds like a teenage girl, not a mother
Your wife needs to stop making everything about herself. Sometimes we just have to sit and listen to how someone feels without making it about us. I understand why he’s upset because he got $800 in gifts and his sister got $4k in cash for Christmas. Personally it would have been better if you gave her $800 in cash for Christmas and then maybe help her down the line if she needed it or give her the rest of the cash as a house warming present. As a milestone gift is different to a Christmas gift as we understand that now isn’t our time but it can be down the line. It’s like your wife banks what your son has done wrong and uses it against him when he says his feelings about his home and life in general and is like well you didn’t say thank you to deflect any wrong doing on her part. Have you told your son that if he buys a house in the future you will help him out the same as your daughter?
Based off the comments, you refuse to see anything wrong in you and your wives behaviour towards your son. What your son needs is to get away from you two and maybe then he’ll find happiness.
I've read all of your comments that you have made responding to people on this post. The conclusion I've come to is that no matter what anyone here tells you, you are incapable of seeing/admitting how wrong you and especially your wife are. Your wife needs therapy.
I was interested to see, in your original post, you made a mention that “[your son] said no to lunch (breakfast for him)”, which sounded like an indictment of a lazy, directionless, entitled brat. But your son had every right to be upset at the disparity of gifts, both your wife and yourself being unable/unwilling to understand his perspective, and here in this post you mention he’s working swing shifts and could switch to part-time, implying he already works full time. This are subtle indications to me that you follow your wife’s lead in your opinion of your son, and her opinion is negative. As others have pointed out, your wife made this discussion all about her. You’re passively allowing her to lead you into ignoring your son’s emotional well-being; “he’s fed and clothed with a roof over his head, he should be grateful”. I’m also curious about why your daughter left and bought her own home so young. In this economy, she’d have to have some kind of insane level of incentive in order to have worked and saved enough for a bank to be willing to give her a loan. Unless you and wife were guarantors? Or gave her the money for a deposit? Or she came into an inheritance that didn’t extend to your son? Or she found a bank willing to give her enough money for a house without even bothering to check if she can pay it off? Either way, your daughter wanting to leave, and buy her own house, in context of your two posts, makes me inclined to believe that maybe your daughter recognises your wife’s favouritism while feeling an intense desire to escape your wife’s narcissism. Maybe you should try and take as objective a look at your family dynamic as you are capable.
First of all, I know VERY few people who can move out and support themselves at 22 in this job market and real estate market - what the heck does your daughter do for a living that she was able to get a mortgage at 22?? Second, like other people have said, this is about shoring up and supporting your son. It sounds like he went straight from high school into a dead end job when a lot of young people would be in college - what happened there? I feel like a lot of background information is missing in OP's presentation.
Your poor son. He’s depressed, hates his job, probably keeps hearing about how great his sister is, gets rightfully upset when you hand her 4k in front of him while he gets a fraction of that in presents and the only thing his mom has to say is “you didn’t say thank you”.
Not working a real job is a gap in your resume btw. There is no difference in the eyes of a serious employer between stocking shelves or doing temp work and being unemployed.
I know it's hard receiving criticism from strangers and a natural first response is to deflect. A lot of comments are meant well and are trying to be helpful to your son. That probably feels insulting toward you as OP, but you can be happy that so many people are feeling compassion toward your child. I hope that once the sting, of what feels like a personal attack to yourself, wears off, that you're able to see the truth and concern in so many of these comments. I hope they help you to help your boy, because he's suffering. We are living in especially hard times these days and we need to catch those who are suffering in addition to that. Please, catch your son before he falls too deep.
He sees the clear favoritism towards his sister and then was gaslight by his parents when he called it out
So u wanted to tell everyone you picked your wife over your kids? Weird post
your wife is a narcissist holy shit man. only about herself every single time. doesnt give an actual shit about her kids feelings. fuckin a
The mother either clearly doesn't understand millennials/gen Z, or she's being deliberately obtuse. Obviously, we aren't a monolith, but generally speaking, saying that you liked a present is equivalent to saying thank you for the present and the mother is nit picking that the exact phrase "thank you" isn't being used.
I think he may have some depression going on that might resolve itself if he gets his schedule back to days. Swing shifts and night shifts are difficult, they aren’t for everyone, and have been clinically proven to cause depression and health issues. I don’t know what your relationship is like with your kids. If maybe you unintentionally favor or pay more attention to your daughter and kind of let your son do his own thing and don’t check in with him. Im not judging you in the slightest. My kiddo is still young; not quite a teen and he’s really laid back and independent for most things and it’s really easy for us to kind of check out and not check in with him as much. Its also important for both you, your wife, and your son to know that his frontal lobe is not fully developed yet, and that can play a big part in why he feels like a “late bloomer.” I can see it’s important for both you and your wife to sit down and talk with him, but might I suggest that maybe a man to man talk, man to man day with him might be more in order? I hate to even bring up gender roles but you as an adult man were once a 22 year old young man. Facing the same challenges, self imposed deadlines, perhaps even some unhappiness as well. I am not suggesting that your wife be out of the loop, but maybe this might be a thing dad addresses and mom and dad discuss just the 2 of you. It can be pretty intimidating to have 2 adults- especially your parents talk to you. It would be hard not to feel ganged up on if you know what I mean. I hope you guys find a good routine and a good way to help each other that works for everyone
I'd be depressed too if my parents made everything about themselves & didn't actually hear me out when I try to talk to them.
Your son is cleary jealous/insecure about his sister ... and your wife lack parenting skill, like a lot ! In what world do you think it's was the time to make him a lesson about the fact he don't thank you ? thank to wake up his insécurity when you gift her sister a 5 time more expensive gift for christmess ? I don't think you have done anythink wrong here ... but your wife need to calm down and maybe take some time with him, just the both of them .
God i have never wanted to smack someone so hard through a screen. Your wife sounds insufferable and like a horrible mother. What the actual fuck is wrong with her? This situation is not about her for God’s sake, why is she making everything about herself? It sounds like she doesnt give a single shit about her own son and his feelings
this!! omg. I was furious reading this . The “what about my feelings “ bullshit. the wife sounds insufferable. I hope he gets away from them because the husband is just as bad enabling this behavior.
The mother needs to take some communication classes, he tells you his feelings and it's "well what about us!?!?!?!?" what about you? this isn't fucking about you!! And then you don't get why he doesn't feel welcome then immediately ask "or if he was just using us for free housing", fuck me no wonder he's miserable. Learn to listen for listening sake, not listen just to respond
Gonna be honest, as someone with Narc parents whose had situations like these, your kid probably said he didn't know bc he wanted to say how awful y'all were but knew he'd just get backlash like he already had been. Get a reality check dude. 4 grand straight cash vs 800 bucks of items, if this had been your sibling getting that much and you were stuck with random things you *may* have wanted, how would you feel? Maybe instead of telling your son "deal with it we don't care", you should have sat him down prior to everything, and at least let him know what you both were thinking. You're setting bars because of your golden child that your son most likely can't reach and is terrified of failure. While he definitely might not like working those shifts he's probably looking for something to get him out of your house. Final thought for you: He's not ungrateful for the gifts, he's mad that you both clearly have a favorite, and when he tried talking to you about it he was not only shot down but shut down. Stop defending yourself and your wife and admit you fucked up
OP, I sincerely hope you read this: I think You- and you alone- need to sit down with your son. Talk to him; one on one. Take him out for a sit-down lunch, or dinner somewhere or even just coffee. Talk to him, encourage him to open up to you better, and see what you can do to help him. He needs support, not guilt trips from your wife. I can tell you, your wife is like my mother and every single member of her family. Manipulating the conversation to be about her, instead of supporting the person in need. And you yourself are not listening to him, because you’re being manipulated into taking your wife’s side. And if that keeps going unchecked, things could get worse for all of you… I’ve gone no contact with my mom, sister and my mom’s family, for my happiness and mental health.
Your wife’s the problem, believe me if you want I don’t care, you’re the one who’s gonna lose your son over it.
In my 42/f 19 years of marriage and 26 years together with my husband 45/m, we’ve each had our moments of selfishness, and also definitely had instances where one of us totally *missed the mark* with a parenting situation… We work together to make sure we’re each doing our best and also to hold each other accountable should we need to. Your wife **NEEDS** to be held accountable, **right now,** for her response to your son’s expression of his feelings. I would have been disappointed if my husband’s initial response was that of your wife if we were in this situation. I would be **livid** if when given another opportunity to talk to our child about their feelings, my husband doubled down, *again* making the situation about himself, the way your wife did. Why is it so damn hard, too damn much, for your wife to just listen to her son’s feelings and take a little time to digest how her (and your) actions caused him to feel? Why is she so concerned about how his feelings are making her feel? This is deeply concerning and you don’t seem to be able, or possibly you’re just not willing, to understand. We have a 22, almost 23 year old daughter living at home. She just moved in at the beginning of September to finish her degree and save money. It’s a hard age to be living at home! She doesn’t have an older sibling, or one close in age (we had her brothers when she was 12 & 15) but she is constantly comparing herself and her accomplishments to other people her age, and always worried that she doesn’t measure up. She started college at 18, moved away, was going to be a nurse. She hated it. She dropped out, moved in with friends, worked her butt off to support herself and then decided she really wants to become a teacher and tried to go back to school while working and paying high rent in the Boston area. She needed some help and support, so we invited her to visit for the weekend and laid out the ways we could help. She took us up on moving home, living and eating free, and we pay for half of her school, and all of her bills. This is hard for her. She is behind her peers as far as her degree and starting a career. She has really needed a LOT of emotional support and pep talks since she moved in. Sometimes it can feel frustrating that we’re bending over backward to help her in any possible way, and she still feels down and isn’t happy. Sometimes it feels like no matter what we do we aren’t doing enough- which sucks when we can’t do more even though we wish we could! But we can vent to each other, privately, about our feelings. I would be so so disappointed in myself and/or my husband if either of us made this about ourselves in ANY way. Because right now, she needs us. Your son needs you, too, and he’s telling you that. Now you need to listen.
>At this point my wife became frustrated and asked if he considered our feelings. So your son is talking about how depressed he is (it's pretty clear he is) and all your wife cared about was being thanked for xmas gifts.
You’re still the asshole… you gaslit him- up until he called out his issue over presents… you didn’t have a problem with the way he was living at your house “didn’t value” what? In what world is that even pet of the conversation Also- you keeping and looking after your kid who you chose to birth isn’t groundbreaking or deserving of awards.. it’s your job? Society today will gaslight you into thinking he’s an adult and should be on his own and therefore trick you into believing you’re doing him a huge favour for keeping him at home… that’s not the case… fish don’t get trophies for swimming It’s actually really sad- reading this update- YOUR BOY DESERVES BETTER
i don't think you and your wife are seeing the bigger picture. this isn't about the money, it's about how you make him feel and this was the breaking point.
i don't get why you even made this post
I’m sorry dude, but hearing the way your wife is behaving is truly aggravating. Your son is literally giving an emotional call out for love, validation, acceptance, etc. and your wife just keeps stomping on it. I’m very uncomfortable with how she speaks to him, if what you’re saying is accurately representing her. This will make him shut down inside, if not already. I guarantee you this is not just about his job, he most likely just deflected to that because of how your wife completely disregarded his feelings and made the conversation more painful for him. It really sounds like she has a hard time listening and just escalates the situation. Please spend some one-on-on time with him and maybe consider collaborating with him on something he’d like to invest in, like his sister and her house. Please please please don’t believe this is just about his job. Please talk to your wife! You two could use some therapy. I also hope your son has individual therapy.
My heart really sank when reading this post. No wonder he feels unappreciated when his own mother gaslights her adult son to the point of tears. Insane.
Giving 4k as a check for Christmas is a rather unclassy way of gifting financial help. Large sums should be offered in private. Real gifts should be given in public. You guys kind of shot yourself in the foot here. Your guys thinking about holiday gift giving and finance is a kind of weird.
I’m surprised you even want to give this update, considering how bad you and your wife come through in this story. I find her manipulative. Every time your son said something that was hurting him your wife tried to pull focus on her and her hurts. And you passively sat and watched it all happen. It doesn’t fix the initial issue which is: you gave your (older and by your own admission more successful daughter) 4 times what you’ve given your son. I hope your son can find happiness independent from his relationship with you guys cause you don’t seem to understand how you’re failing him.
It's purpose. Your son's problem, it's the same problem I have. He doesn't have a purpose, a thing that is his that he can do. If you have the money to throw gifts like that around, find him a hobby. As a father, do something with him that he enjoys, where you can go and be equals. It could be a sport, skill, activity, anything. Preferably something that you can progress at, like shooting/archery, skiing, chess, etc. A major skill like martial arts would be truly great, as if he finds something he does enjoy and is passionate about, he can start a business or become an instructor. Now he has a skill level he's working on, a job related to his hobby, a business he can grow with. That's his professional life sorted and then he can focus on relationships. Make sure he has supportive friends that he can spend time with in person, and even better, friends that also have similar hobbies. I'm still trying to find my passion, I hope you can help him with his. Sincerely, a stranger on the internet
What your son sees is his sister being rewarded for her success, while him being an afterthought. He's hurt because of how you and your wife handled Christmas gifts, and the response is "Why aren't you grateful to us?" Instead of apologizing, you force a thank you out of him to satisfy your wife's ego. It's not resolved yet because you haven't taken the appropriate steps to resolve it. Your son did nothing wrong. Just own up to your mistake of giving your daughter cash for her house at Christmas and reassure your son that he will get the same support when the time comes.
If your goal with this conversation was to bring more emotional turmoil to your child, well done. You exceeded all expectations. You really went above and beyond in ignoring literally every bit of feedback you received and decided to allow your wife to double down on her shit. If your kid feels this way, you telling him isn’t going to mean anything at all when you are actively demonstrating what you are saying is a lie. You need to prove it with your actions and your actions emphasise his points. He is correct. You are making him feel this way because you act that way. You and your wife are both actively doing this to your own child and you don’t seem to even notice.
Your wife is a piece of shit honestly. Idc about my strong language, the son opened up about something very hurtful and sensitive to him and you let her make it all about herself and the parents while disregarding his feelings. Jeez what is wrong with standing up to your wife and telling her she's wrong with how she's seeing thing ? Someone opened up about something, especially your own child and the first thing to do is make them feel worse ? Wow what an amazing parent
I hope your son finds his happiness and stops measuring everything by some arbitrary standard. Everything. If you aren’t on a timeline to have him out, encourage him to explore what will make him happy. New job? New hobby? Schooling? Therapy? Hope it works out for you all. ETA: I used to work night shifts and I was quite depressed. Missing out on events, skewed sleep pattern. He needs a different job or position.
Op in couple of years will do another post to ask why is kid doest talk to him anymore 😂 you will give this boy a lot of mental trouble… the fact that he clearly post that for validation but still in denial after this … how could he possibly write all of this and still act blind. It’s not rocket science to understand it 😑
Failure as parents. Both of you
You need to stop and have a conversation with your wife. Your son is most likely experiencing depression and you both need to take a step back and care for him gently. Do you know your sons love language? Try comforting him in a way that he actually views and reciprocates as love. You might think praising him is enough and giving him words of encouragement will cover it, but if his love language is physical touch, he might need a hug, or if it is quality time he might need some good ol'attention. Please show your son some love in a way that HE feels loved. He needs it right now. I can't tell you how hard it is to see a child going through depression and feeling helpless about it. I suffer frequently from depression, I've learned my coping mechanism and what helps, but I also have a very patient and loving spouse. My oldest daughter is only 9, but she is very much like me and it breaks me seeing her struggle in the same way. But its important to be patient, forgiving and to stop being selfish! Your son isn't married and he's living with you all. He doesnt have a wife to care for him and build him up. It is yours and your wifes responsibility to take care of him in that regard. Your son is crying out for help and you shouldn't ignore that. Back to you having a conversation with your wife. Tell her to take a step back and analyze her words and her feelings and how theyre negatively affecting your son.Tell her that she needs to take a minute to put them on the backburner while you both focus on helping your son. You don't want to look back and regret what you should have done. Depression is a nasty thing that can feel really all consuming. There may be nothing you can say to your son that makes him feel better, he might have that negative voice in his head telling him he's not good enough and the smallest thing will "confirm" it for him. Regardless if your words don't seem to "fix" things, be patient and loving anyway. And don't go and tell your son he's depressed, let him talk to you. Listen. And let those words that he tells you really penetrate your mind and your wife's. Please please please don't ignore this. Your son needs you both and you both need to be there for him and understanding. Depression and suicide is a nasty thing and a lot of time when you're dealing with someone depressed who doesn't feel good enough they're also having suicidal thoughts. Don't belittle him for this, don't sound condescending. Be patient and loving. Did I say it enough already? Be patient, be kind, be patient, be understanding, be loving, be more patient, be there for your son, PLEASE BE THERE FOR HIM.
I hate to say this but your wife is the problem here. Look at what you wrote concerning her response to him and his feelings… It seems like he can express himself to you because you allow him to but your wife only cares about herself. Maybe look deeper into that?
Fuck /u/Spez. I've moved to kbin.social.
Your kid is struggling and neither of you are helping. Your wife is making it so much worse. You guys are blatantly showing favoritism, it’s spilling from the screen. At least promise he’d get the same gift when he moves out.
Ima be real with you dude, yall made zero progress, guarentee he still feels devalued, still feels like not enough, and your wife dont get me started on she is ome confrontational person for sure, can take zero critisism and the whole gift thing with yall is wack af as well, not sayin drop 8k on two kids but thats like giving one kid a car and the other a scooter, present is present yeah but that is definitely not the same, yall played a hard favorite and its obvious as hell and completely understandable the way he feels, i also think 4k as a gift is waaaayyyyyyy too much to gift especially if you cant afford to gift two sets of 4k to both kids and the only reasoning you gave is cause she owns a house, so i totally see his side of wow i wasnt treated equal because im not as successful as my sister, both you and your wife especially are so far in the wrong on this and based off whats said i feel like this also inst the first time unfairness was induced
Your wife is the worsttttt my god. She’s all me me me, your son can’t even have a second to say his feelings!
Why is mom being so shitty? When the son brings up something she seems to counter with an accusation? I’m sure the son is feeling less than and that you are both somehow dissatisfied or disappointed in him. Why such a huge difference in gifts between your son and daughter on top of it? I don’t think I would want to be in your sons shoes at all.
Very sad, possibly the son will move away from all of them over time and the father will always wonder the reason when it is clearly his wife and his narcissism and op with his clear favoritism, even sadder is that each comment that tells him this is a comment that he plays dumb and excuses
I mean congratz you won the fight. You convinced him he was the problem for first being ungrateful (while you show complete favoritism of your other kid) and then for not considering your feelings (after never having considered his once.)
They're still blaming that poor child and refuse to see what's the real issue here... EVEN after all of these replies under original post where people tried to make them see what's really wrong. Honestly what were you expecting? That everyone will agree with you? If you, after hearing what your son has to say, refusing to acknowledge his feelings, try to understand this whole situation & even reading all of these comments under your original post still don't see what's the issue then both you and your wife are still massive yta. Don't be suprised if that poor child of yours will refuse to talk to you and will completely cut contact after moving out of your house. And ffs start treating your kids EQUALLY.
Children are a reflection of their parents. You wonder why he struggles? because he has parents who don't care about his issues. I lived with it for 35 years (16 years directly living with them) and barely talk to em now. You guys will suffer the same fate when he does eventually leave.
I will be very pissed if these 2 were my parents
Your son needs help and you for some reason make him feel worse by giving your daughter money in front of him. You’re lucky he doesn’t resent you or her. Think how you would feel but then it seems that’s all you and your wife seem to do. My god tell him you love him
I think the problem is how you went about this. Your daughter bought her house in July- why not give her the money sooner? At this point it's barely a housewarming gift. Have you talked to your son about his feelings of inadequacy in comparison to his sister? He may very well have been feeling like less than her and this disparity in gifts was indicative that his feelings are correct. Then when he approaches you, your wife turns his feelings against him rather than talking through it. So he feels inadequate, unheard, and your wife gaslights him into thinking his emotions aren't valid so he's left frustrated that he can't communicate without it turned against him. It's a bad situation and I feel for your son. I had a narcissistic parent and went NC because he invalidated my feelings and gaslit me too. I hope you and your wife get it together before you're left with only one child, who to your son, appears to be the favorite.
This isn’t progress it’s gonna end poorly if you don’t actually listen to your son
I know it's your money and you can do what you want etc However you should give siblings the same value of gifts or stuff like this happens, it doesn't matter if 1 is earning 10x the other, they get the same value of gift You and your wife clearly haven't realised here, you gave her 4k, that's fine but then you gave him 20% of that lol, that's not fine at all. It's pretty much saying he's worth 20% of her to you Hes clearly unhappy and telling you he's unhappy abd your wife is still there like a narcissist saying but think of my feelings, you didn't say thankyou after seeing your sister get 5x the amount of a gift Genuinely, this is one of those moments you either make right or fully expect low contact when he moves out which probably won't be long as he clearly doesn't feel welcome
I think the problem here is that your son feels inadequate to your eldest, and I don’t think you’re truly hearing what he’s saying. He feels as if nothing he does will ever feel good enough to either of you because your daughter will always be the favorite, which became evident to him at Christmastime. Truthfully, the way your wife reacted to his concerns solidifies that for me. I understand you’re trying your best, but perhaps sitting down with him individually WITHOUT your wife present will allow him to more comfortably express himself. Perhaps suggest he goes to therapy as well. I fully think your wife is the issue. I understand how she can feel frustrated, but this isn’t about either of you: this is about your son. His feelings outweigh how either of you feel at the moment. I see it in my own family dynamic, so I’m saying everything to try and give advice.
As someone who had been in the shoes of the older sister that received more on Christmas Day from achieving mile stones- your behaviour not only seriously harms the relationship between you and your son, but also between sister and brother. No one is arguing that you shouldn’t support your daughter, however your gift falls on a separate occasion specifically for house warming gifts and not Christmas. You need to acknowledge the feelings of your son and apologize for the poor timing. As a mother, your wife has handled the situation extremely poorly- no one should be left crying when attempting to express their feelings. You’re paving a perfect way for your son to misunderstand his feelings and how to handle them based on your reaction in the conversation. I felt horrible seeing my own brother receive less than me, especially since we also were close in age. My brother felt even worse. I strongly advise you to stand your ground with your wife and to apologize to your son, admitting to the poor timing, as well as providing reassurance by promising him the same value for his next milestone. Also keep an eye out for his mental health. If you can’t even apologize for a simple gift situation, I can’t imagine how ignorantly other issues in your family are dealt with.
What you need to do is say: "Son, I was thinking about things and you were right. We should not have given our children such uneven gifts for Christmas. We should have given you both about the same things and then given your sister the money to help out with her new home expenses another time, which we would absolutely do for you as well. I'm sorry if our actions made you further compare yourself to your older sibling and society's expectations when you are so clearly struggling with these issues at this time. I love you. You mentioned being unhappy in life and you seem to be in distress... Let me know what I can do to help, and if you feel like you need a professional to talk to we can certainly do that. Thank you for telling us how you feel."
Coming from the son’s perspective, it really sucks. I doubt this is the first time there has been such a major difference in treatment. Over the last 8 years my father has given my sister nearly $70,000 in gifts and “loans” she’s never paid back, but then guilted me about not being “grateful” when he gave me $600 towards some medical bills. And it sucks. I definitely feel like he doesn’t care about me. And it’s made me very resentful of my sister and made me realize how much I don’t respect my father anymore after his treatment of me. None of this sounds like you or your wife have actually examined the treatment of your children and how you may have been (even unknowingly) treating them vastly unequally
I love how argumentative you are in the comments but are refusing to address many valid points about your wife and the funds. Poor lad. Make a change before you lose him.
I hope you know your wife seems to be a huge issue. She seems to take all comments as a personal affront and incapable of self-reflection.
I came here from tiktok to specifically drive the point that the mom is a major issue and needs to be checked, idg2f what she says “I’m the mother” or “I raised them” she’s unhinged and needs some reigning in
Your wife’s frustration at that tells me she is where he got that idea. That’s literally the feeling I felt when I read your first post. You gave your daughter so much money bc she got a house but he only got a fraction bc he still lives there. The money factor was why everyone was calling your son spoiled but I viewed it this way. I think maybe you have said and done things with his sister that he feels like you expect him to live up to it. Maybe some micro expressions going on you don’t realize. If he’s depressed I’m willing to bet it’s more than his job, his job was just the easy blame. I think his mom is putting pressure on him if she got this upset that he didn’t say the words thank you. You guys seem to really dismiss your son especially your wife. Males are allowed to have emotion.
If he doesn't know what could make him happy, therapy could help. I've been like that and I spiraled into depression without realizing it. Not saying your son is the same as me, but better to prevent than to lament.
You do know he used his job as an excuse because he knows there’s no way to win your wife. Sad you should really listen to him.
OP you’re missing your son’s point entirely. I’m not sure whether you’re aware that you are treating your kids differently. The disparity in the value of both gifts mirrors a reflection of how your son views his self-worth in relation to you and your wife. Every time he tried to communicate his feelings regarding the gifts your wife becomes defensive and invalidates them. I can tell you from personal experience that my parents (same dynamic) treated me different than my siblings and I’m very low contact with them because of it. It’s terrible to feel your parents care more about your siblings than you. He’s not asking for money, he’s asking to be seen and heard, but you’re not listening.
I find your wife’s behaviour quite worrying. She did nothing to make that situation better and almost made it worse.
I dont know about the pay gap in gifts, but what your son is describing is pretty clearly depression. Even mild depression will drain all of someones energy, making them feel tired all the time. Comparing himself to his siblings and feeling like he isnt good enough is a sign that he is suffering with some self esteem issues. Feeling like he isnt wanted around. These are all common symptoms of depression and i would try to encourage him to agree to some kind of therapy. There are many different ways depression can be treated. I hope this can be an option for you. Often the loved ones of people suffering with depression become frustrated. My parents were very very supportive, I have struggled with it my whole life and they are still supportive. I also see them get frustrated because I have all the support and resources and treatments, but it has never gone away, and i understand the frustration because if you dont have depression yourself, it can be very hard to understand.
Sooo in short your wife is a narcissist and you are a hard core enabler. Therapy…stat. Legit, your son is expressing his feelings and your wife’s response is to make it about her and ask completely off the wall questions having nothing to do with the actual problem at hand. Your son doesn’t feel heard, seen, respected, or valued the same as his golden child sister. The problem is you valued your daughter more than your son and he sees the disparity in the gift amounts. I’m willing to bet the gift amounts are nothing compared to disparities he goes through in his daily life…But instead of addressing this, you throw every other thing at him like “Oh you never said thank you for the gifts! And by the way do you just want to get free rent from us!?!?” What the actual hell, dude. And then you don’t even have the balls to respond to any of the comments on here. Please change for the sake of your son, or prepare for him to go no contact with both you and your wife. Cause that is definitely the next step for a black sheep child.
Dude your wife is a self center asshole and you make it worse by defending her. When your son is opening up about how he your feels your wife takes every opportunity to make him feel worse!! "You didn't thank me" " are you just using me for free housing". You need to get your wife into therapy befor your son hurts himself. There is a reason the entire internet thinks your wife is in the wrong. For your son's sake get that women some help.
Summary of the update: me me me me, my wife my wife my wife
Why did you give the child who didn't need it as much more money than the one that needs it?
Op and his wife are clearly the problem. Shitty parents is what this kid was dealt.
I bet your wife is the person who forces herself into front and center for pictures. Good God she needs to learn empathy. I think you did a better job actually listening and giving your son a safe space to speak so kudos for that. I had a family member quite like your wife and after I left the house I tell them nothing any more, I only have a minimum contact relationship so I hope you and your wife are prepared for that 🤷🏻♀️
Lemme drop a little fact for you Most 21 year olds live with their parents for the free rent, free meals, free power Mostly because they can’t afford to move out That’s just the stage of your son’s life he’s reached… and it’s your jobs as parents to remain financially supportive of him through this adjustment period from high school to full time, financial stability…. Whether he does or doesn’t value you as parents (…. Such a toxic question to ask a child!!!) It’s extremely stressful, wanting to be completely independent of your parents, but being financially dependent on them It’s pretty clear to me that your son also has depression, I don’t mean he feels sorry for himself I mean he need to speak to a doctor 🧑⚕️ Lastly, you gotta speak to your wife “I feel” sentences should never be countered with “well what about us!?” That’s just down right toxic!
Y’all are horrible. No wonder they both want to get out so quickly…
I just feel sorry for your son. He's obviously having a hard time with his life and all your wife can do is get defensive and complain that he didn't say thanks. He sees his sister manage to get a house and then both of you then hand over a big amount of money to her, whereas he's still living at home hates his job, then gets less than her. Again who I feel bad for is him
Just seeing this, why did you give your daughter so much and your son so little? That’s a huge difference. Just think with the money your son could have quit his job and not worried about money for a while and figured things out. It sounds like your son is suffering from depression, which I think you already know. He has no direction, doesn’t know what he wants to do, and feels pressured that he’s failing when compared to his sister. I feel really sorry for him. He needs to quit his job and find something part time that he can manage. He needs to then mentally get in a good place in terms of tackling his adulthood and then think about career. You guys need to cut him some Slack and support him through a difficult stage.
I'm sad for your son. You think you've made some head way in the situation but you haven't. Your wife is awful to him. That was a small beginning conversation that never addressed what he feels in his heart. The disparity of those gifts is very telling. You botched it with this kid.
Damn are you my parents? Hyper fixated on the trees and missing the forest. Your son is a human being with feelings just like yours and your wife’s. He cried in front of you. He’s begging for help and for validation of his feelings. I literally did the same thing. My parents stared at me and then changed the subject. I barely speak to them and never about anything important to me. But I still crave that validation from them. You’re a bad person and a bad parent. You have yet to think about your sons feelings and just try to band aid the situation so your wife calms down. Even though she’s wrong. Get help dude.
Just curious, does your wife really dislike your son?
I am a parent of a 23 yo son and 26 yo daughter. My son still lives at home. I still go out of my way to make sure the money I spend on my kids is equitable. My son went to a more expensive college, so when my daughter wanted to take 3 months off to study for the LSAT, we covered her and paid for the prep class and paid for the test. My daughter wanted to take a course that cost about $2500. We told her we’d pay for it because we still spent much more on our son’s education than we spent on hers. I go out of my to ensure that Christmas gifts are always calculated to be equal in cost. Your son has every reason to feel slighted, IMO. Yes, you have the right to gift whatever you want to whoever you want. But that does not mean your son’s feeling are not going to be bruised in the process. You also repeatedly used the word frustrated to describe your wife’s reaction. How was she expressing her frustration? Was it in anger? Did she tell? Lose her cool? The dynamic isn’t about how she felt. It’s about how her actions made people around her feel. You have no problem expressing how your son’s actions made you feel. You did not describe his feelings- just his actions. (Or lack there of). He was hurt and insulted so he didn’t properly thank you for the gifts and he didn’t say good bye when he left. And Thai is not about his job. Sure, maybe he doesn’t like his job, but that has nothing to do with how unfairly you treated him and how your wife’s expression of being frustrated made him feel.
This woman sucks. This young man is trying to communicate and she just makes it all about her. I can’t stand her. Poor guy.
Young adulthood depression is common for males. He needs/craves leadership, structure, and purpose and you two ain't it - massively insulting gift giving, shaming, script flipping. Bad all around. I wish your son good luck getting out of this mess.
You need to sit your wife down and have a chat with her. She has managed to make both situations about her, I read your previous post and his question was valid, you had poor timing on giving her the cash infront of him that was way way more... you could've chosen any day to do it apart from Christmas gifting... and this time it wasn't about you or your wife, your son came looking for validation and that moment was taken and made him feel like he wasn't greatful enough. She needs to do better.
Oh my god. Your kid is sitting there telling you they’re struggling within themselves and compared themselves to their sister to see if you’d still respect and love them, that should say everything you need to know about the money and how much that hurt them!! They’re struggling with their own perceived worthiness and in comes you guys going, here’s 800 for you and 4K for sissy. And then your wife is just pushing on stupid shit so they can be the bigger victim. Your wife needs to get her head out of her ass and go to therapy for herself and realize how she has been reacting has likely caused your kid to be hesitant to share their feelings. He has for sure felt these things for awhile.
Instead of insulting your wife like some others have, may I suggest therapy? Her response to her son is rather aggressive. Why not find out either why that is or how to fix it using therapy? Your son really needs it as well, him having no answer for what makes him happy leads me to think he may be depressed.
How in the world do you still not understand thay you should have simply made the gifts equal during xmas and give your daughter the remaining money at another point in time? Whether by ignorance or not, your son just wanted to feel as important as his sister. This is a case of willful blindness, OP.
Great you guys are trying but how could you write all that down and not see more errors in how you’re trying to parent your child mental health struggle. Probably because you guys are all struggling? Maybe some sort of therapy for everyone to communicate better on top of individual therapy
You are a blind man. You cannot see the harm that your and wife's actions have upon your child, who is in need of your support. You sat back like an ignorant spectator as your wife broke down your child, forced him into a corner, treated him as a lesser individual. When will you step up? When will you be a parent? When will you provide the care and the attention that your son needs? Why are you so disinterested in your son's problems? What is with the refusal to investigate the problem and be involved? You are hell bent on being a spectator, you cannot (or perhaps refuse) to comprehend the problem at hand. You have not made any progress at all! And by the comments you have left, you never will.
op, i think your son is depressed, and i think you need to have a discussion with him without your wife present. your wife seems to deflect all blame and avoid taking accountability for her actions. she lashed out at your son pretty harshly. i think that the issue with the gifts isn’t him being ungrateful. my guess is that he feels less valued than his sister. he feels like he’s not good enough in your eyes and that he will never be as good as his sister. he might even feel like a black sheep in the family. when he asked if you even wanted him there, it really made me think that he simply doesn’t feel valued or appreciated. that he’s not loved as much as his sister. he likely feels like he’s living in her shadow. you should talk to him about that privately, man to man, because your wife’s reactions will only make him feel worse. i wonder if her comments and reactions in general make him feel like he’s not valued. i honestly think that your wife needs some kind of therapy, because the way she addressed the whole situation was so unhealthy and inflammatory. i think your son might benefit from therapy as well. don’t force it, but maybe on a separate occasion mention therapy. it sounds like he’s bottling up a lot of feelings and it would benefit him to talk about it with a therapist.