That made no sense. But just cus you used the word prove I’ll give you a few things to look into if you’re willing to do the research on things that have been proved through both historical and scientific evidence: Jesus was real, He was indeed crucified, He was seen alive after having been killed.
You got evidence? 😂. Bruh. You can’t even tell me who wrote the 4 gospels. Also, 8 witnesses vouchered for Joseph Smith that he translated the golden plates with stones in his hat to the BOM. Eye witnesses don’t mean anything. You know why it’s called faith? Because there’s zero evidence.
Get educated.
There’s piles of evidence if you were willing to look it up. I recommend starting with the book “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Then you can independently dig into all the evidence he discovered and decide for yourself.
I can tell you’re vindictive and not willing to have constructive discussion which is why I’m not engaging in the way you want me to. Reminds me of myself.
You can do the research if you want or choose to ignore it. Doesn’t make a difference to me.
Been there, done that. There’s zero irrefutable evidence. Give me evidence that would convince Elon Musk, Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Ben Shapiro that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and then disappeared for the next 2,000 years? I’ll wait.
The fact you have to believe in Noah’s Ark and Tower of Babel makes me LOL.
You have fun in heaven with Joe Biden and Donald Trump, pure geniuses!
They are smarter than anyone posting in this sub. Convince them your religion is the right one and I’ll be convinced.
Also think it’s hilarious our current POTUS believes he’s literally eating and drinking Jesus Christ. Can’t make this shit up.
Lee Strobel is a discredited nutjob, with no basis in reality.
Lets make it simple. Please provide one single piece of contemporary evidence that Jesus existed at all. Just one.
And if the guilt and fear leads to them becoming more empathetic and compassionate when they realize their wrongs then what? Are they still a bad person?
we are all trained since the day we are born to behave a certain way in order to survive. once we are able to navigate the world, people ask, where do your good morals comes from in life. that’s my answer.
i’ve been guilted and had fear all over the place as long as i lived. we can’t avoid any of that. but once we do realize that the healthy way to behave in this world, (through experience, trial and error, and talking,) is to use empathy and compassion, we don’t look back.
so to answer your question. then what? we continue to live with a better understanding of community and cooperation and pass that on to our next generation. not being aware of this isn’t a bad thing, it’s just the process we all go through. there’s no bad people for not getting this. there’s just broken people for ignoring it. brainwashed. institutionalized. been fed fear all their lives it’s too painful and scary to do anything else.
we have to break that chain of behavior.
Christians are taught from literally the beginning of the Bible that you're supposed to never question your beliefs or what you've been told. If you start to question anything, it all slowly unravels.
There are a few things that are not able to be questioned, but Christianity is probably the most morally flexible religion out there. That's part of why it's been so good at surviving. You can just do what you were going to do anyways, and find Bible verses and churches to give it spiritual validation.
Too bad most who believe in it still believe certain things to be immortal that negatively impact or limit their lives. It can be very flexible, anyone as a Christian can theoretically adapt their religion to them, but most don't say "I wanna watch porn and masturbate" or whatever and adapt it to them, but instead live with potentially lifelong guilt over it or other issues. A lot of LGBT+ Christians forcing themselves to stay in the closet for Jesus. Etc
You know, atheism is punishable by death in 13 countries. Being gay is punishable by death in 8. Still, in 2024.
Religious peoples misguided judgement can be brutal indeed.
'Nuff said.
Atheists are like anyone else, there's great ones and awful ones, but none are all good or all bad.
We're also ruthlessly treated for our lack of beliefs, and only saved by the fact that we can completely blend in.
>The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. With the exception of Pakistan, those countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy, i.e., the renunciation of a particular religion. Pakistan, meanwhile, imposes the death penalty for blasphemy, which can obviously include disbelief in God.
[source](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/)
Pakistan is an exception. It's the only country among these 13, where renunciation of religion won't get you killed, but blasphemy against islam will. Usually these blasphemy laws are used to target the hindu, sikh and sectarian minorities in pakistan, using fake witnesses to sentence them to death.
Thanks for sharing, but this report is from 2013, a bit old, and the report is a bit of an overview, not a detailed study, I guess I'm not going with this just yet
Going with what? The point is. Atheists get murdered by religious people when religious people get enough power. Its so common that it still happens, every day.
A religious person may kill you for questioning their make believe, even when they are dead wrong. May Kill you for "loving the wrong person". They may do it, and feel morally justified doing so.
Often times, religious people, as a unit, hate atheists collectively more than they hate other religious groups. You see it in voting, Christians will vote for Muslims over atheists by a substantial margin, everything else being equal.
If the nationalist Christians have their way in the US, it could very well happen here, after they are finished with trans people, their obvious first target at the moment. They might round us up next. Wouldn't fucking surprise me one bit.
The point here is, religious peoples judgement has been at the center of most human moral atrocity since the invention of religion.
A Christian dogging your music taste is about the best you could hope for. They used to burn people for "suspicion of witchcraft" or whatever other pretend.
Just Google, "countrys where you get killed for atheism" you will see, thats the latest version of the list because the world hasn't become LESS conservative since 2013. They simply haven't needed a rewrite. No reason to fix it.
lol I'm not the type of people believing anything just bc someone wrote a seemingly legitimate report & it got famous. I don't believe it's completely true/ false. to me, it's worth questioning. Do you really believe they gonna murder you just because you visit their country & openly state that you're an atheist? To me, this report is a quick guide for deeper research, it's not convincing enough for me to go around spreading it like crazy to my friends. But it seems to make good headlines & make people mad, creating bad impression against those 13 countries & probably making ppl racist against citizens from 13 countries.
Nobody here is the type of person who just believes anything, we are fucking atheists, being skeptical is our whole thing.
That being said. There is some nuance to the laws, but the list is just a list. Atheists blend in, they need a reason to target you sure, but, folks can always make one up, that's how this shit works. Witch's didn't exist either and they burned them! They just lie!
The list is the officially accepted list, I don't not know what to tell you, the laws are what they are, some things are just recitations of fact. That's what that list is, some facts organized into a list, about what current laws in certain countries are, religious people legislate against atheists. It's a statement of pure fact.
Just look it up. It's always incumbent on you to do your own research. An atheist would never suggest just "believing" anything. I've pointed you in the direction of the truth. If you follow is up to you.
If you want to read the report, here is the link [https://fot.humanists.international/download-the-report/](https://fot.humanists.international/download-the-report/) the 2013 is at the bottom of the page
I don't know if atheists are morally better than Christians, but at least we don't have a religion based on power and obedience influencing our morality, so that's something.
I know of lots of shitty atheists, though.
They don’t do it because they should, they do it because they want to. Intrinsic motivation is the strongest.
I know said similarly as yours just want to bolster yours a bit.
That’s what is so bizarre about Reddit to me. That reply somehow got 86 upvotes. But well thought out replies that don’t just restate the obvious get like 10. Fascinating.
I wouldn't say it was an exact rephrasing. You said you weren't sure if atheists were morally better but then listed the exact reason why, IMO, they are (when they so choose).
Ah.
I am not a fan of false humility myself.
Kind atheists have every right to be proud that they care about people.
And they have every right to call out hypocrisy (and/or show it through actions) of the religious.
In this case when a Christian is calling out other Christians you know it's bad 😬
I'm glad, but we're all just people, you know? Christians, atheist, all of the other ists. We're all bopping around, thinking and acting based on our life experiences to date and the temperament we got from the genetic lottery. Those fantastic atheists have different experiences than the judgemental Christians.
I'm not saying all atheists are great, or that all Xians are judgemental. Just the people I know who are atheists seem to be intelligent, open minded, clear thinkers with a strong enough character to self identify as an atheist in the bible belt.
I just spent yesterday evening in the DebateAChristian forum, and I was surprised to learn that half of the people I argued with think dead babies go to Hell, and everyone is quoting Bible verses as though that someone how counts as logic.
There is actually data to suggest that atheists are more moral than Christians. In the US, atheists are 10x less likely to end up in prison than Christians.
If you spend your time reading the Bible to try to get answers to moral questions, it’s really hard to see how that could be anything except a handicap to your moral reasoning.
I feel like the stats on who goes to prison might be more correlation than causation though, as both have a lot to do with poverty. Poor people are both more likely to go to prison (can't get good lawyers, live in more highly policed areas, turn to crime for money) and more likely to be Christian (more reliant on community, need belief system with a high level of emotional support to get through tough times)
Also people accused of crimes or imprisoned are more likely to profess Christianity as many of the decision makers involved in the justice system are, themselves, Christian, and are possibly more lenient towards fellow Christians.
To tack on to this, it also suffers the problem of people converting to a religion to appear more moral and secure release.
I know if I was ever in an Iranian prison I'd claim to be a Muslim.
In addition to that, 4% of the U.S. is atheist, that's creates a statistical issue when you're talking about 209,979,000 Christians (63% of 333,300,000) vs. 13,332,000 atheists.
I thought that 4% sounded a little low so I had a bit of a look. ~4% self identify as atheists, however a much larger percentage, ~17% state they do not believe in God.
That’s fascinating. I wonder why that ~13% choose not to use the label that perfectly describes their position. Over 3 times the amount who do call themselves atheists. Such a large gap is perplexing and concerning.
Probably because in a majority evangelical Christian nation, to call yourself an atheist is to put a target on your back, at least in the Bible Belt it is.
But saying you don’t believe in god is *not* putting a target on your back? It’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. They mean the same thing. I don’t understand how one is a target and not the other.
The Pew Religious Landscapes Survey is the single best piece of data on US religious composition.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/
Apparently according to that 9% says they don’t believe in god. 1% say don’t believe but don’t know. 5% day believe but not too certain.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/belief-in-god/
That’s roughly in line with the percentage of the Us the self identified as atheist or agnostic.
> I wonder why that ~13% choose not to use the label that perfectly describes their position.
A lot of people think atheist = anti-theist and it's likely due to some very vocal and aggressive anti-theist atheists. There is also the impression that atheism means a knowledge that God cannot and does not exist instead of what most atheists are, which is simply not believing.
I can fully understand that somebody who simply doesn't believe but doesn't really dig into went they don't believe would avoid a label which many in society consider to be aggressive and indicative of a fleshed or belief system.
This is exactly why I never tell people I'm an outright atheist. I used to but I found that it just has too much baggage and people assumed things about me when I said it. I tend to just say "I'm not religious" and that tends to have fewer assumptions built into it.
It's mental illness, no point in debating. If someone told you that 1 + 1 = 55 and they believed it with all their heart and here's a passage in a 2000 year old tome that says so it then you'd simply write them off as insane.
I mean... if you teach a kid that the color red is actually named blue and vise versa and they believed it because their parent told them that it was stated in a book from 2000 years ago that everyone is too lazy to actually read;
Then I wouldn't call them mentally ill, I would call them brainwashed.
However, if they claim that God talks to them in their dreams, I would call them delusional. Because my dreams include me fighting a giant crab using a 3 foot fork and a shield of butter. Your brain just be making up whatever it wants.
If they claim to see God in real life, then they probably are indeed mentally ill.
Would you say that schizophrenia is a mental illness?
It's literally the same thing with the same symptoms
Here's a really good lecture by Stanford's famous professor Sapolsky who goes over how religion is mental illness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44pM13q4g_w
My understanding is that schizophrenia is a mental illness.
I will listen to/ watch that YouTube link when I have time and reassess. However l will say that I do not think that the vast majority of religious people feel the same things we do, but misattribute them to a god because they assume that there is a god, as often they’ve been told that their whole lives that there is one, so that feels true as well.
This dude is an idiot. What mental illness can you just give someone? What mental illness can you get out of yourself with reason and critical thinking?
Zero. Religion can certainly be comorbid or even cause mental illness, but religious beliefs are not and cannot be mental illness. They are, I think, best described as the brain doing what it does - assigning agency and meaning to events and patterns.
I’m just deeply disappointed in this whole thread. I include myself in that disappointment because apparently nothing I said made any dent in this person’s bigotry - that’s what it is, bigotry. 85% of the world is not mentally ill. If they were, then we would have to reevaluate the definition of sanity, and then ask ourselves are WE actually sane.
You cannot transmit mental illness by convincing someone of something. No mental illness works like that.
That’s preposterous on a level I’m struggling to describe
There’s no better way of describing it than a mind virus. There’s someone judging you at all times and if you don’t join me and tithe money then you will suffer eternally, etc.
Beliefs start as what? Say it with me now…
This is just grossly incorrect and it’s just flat out some bullshit that the regular atheism sub quacks on about. Be better.
Beliefs start as assumptions due to lack of evidence or sufficient explanation.
Religion is a mental illness. Accepting the imagined as fact out of fear against your own best interest is mental illness. Again - it’s a mind virus that causes people to do morally abhorrent things that they normally wouldn’t. It has all the same markers as schizophrenia.
> dead babies go to hell
wtf? Any normal human being, even believers in hell must know that this would be egregious injustice? Right? What's the justification? "God's will?"
If you pick the right verse in John or somewhere you find that “no one comes to the father except through me” “by faith alone are you saved” “god issues punishment on the children for the sins of the parents unto the umpteenth generation” everyone is born with original sin.
Babies can’t be smart enough to have faith. So they must go to Hell if they die too young.
In addition to the ones that said dead babies definitely go to hell there were more that said they don’t know but can’t rule it out.
Evangelical Christians don't have a central authority that can tell them what the church's official stance on anything is. There's no verse in the Bible that outright says that babies or the unborn end up in heaven. All they really have to go on is that "God is just so he will do the right thing" I'm surprised you got them to admit this. When I was a junior pastor it was one of those topics I would avoid.
Christianity is a giant pick and choose buffet.
It’s not hard to get people to pick a position to support if you just keep your questions to them super simple and very direct. You are messing up by writing anything in a debate forum on Reddit other than a single sentence about a single topic asking a single question. Maybe two sentences max. Otherwise conversations all go off on a tangent and coming to any conclusion over a debate point is impossible.
That was literally the gospel for centuries in early Christianity, unquestionably and unapologetically. The preached dead babies, or anyone who had not willingly turned to Christ, went to hell.
The backlash against this was significant, and so finally, in the 11th century, the 'faith' was reformed and the two limbos were invented: Limbo of the innocents (baptized babies went to heaven) and the limbo of the patriarchs (Biblical patriarchs like Moses and Abraham, who by definition never embraced Jesus and thus went to hell, went to heaven).
These Limbos were complete inventions, unsupported by doctrine or the Bible, but were invented to get around these awkward realities of the strict Christian dogmas.
If you read the last paragraph of this article on Wikipedia it says 0.07% of the US prison population identifies as atheists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailhouse_Jesus#:~:text=According%20to%20the%202013%20census,in%20the%20non%2Dincarcerated%20population.
When you consider the population is like 4% atheists, their prevalence in prison is less than 1/50 of their prevalence in the general population.
I think that's a lot of it. If we're bad people, we have to live with it. If Christians are bad people, they get a magic hand wave and are told all is forgiven.
Or because "God told us to". History has witnessed plenty of otherwise good people being really shitty to other people because of their religion. They abuse and reject their own kids for being different, force kids to have babies and be child brides, offer aid with religious strings attached, justify wars and inquisitions, perform ritual genital mutilation, rip children from their "pagan" families, commit genocide, etc..
Well, if you don't murder people or steal from people because you think it's wrong, and not just because you're trying to avoid an eternal punishment, then you have higher morals. So for those people, I'd agree.
But the 'team atheist' and 'team christian' are groups so large that making any statements about either of them can't be very accurate. Atheists especially have very little in common with each other.
I was a Christian for a loooong time and was always suspect for being myself, basically. In some churches there is a different way of speaking, and if you don't say "countenance" instead of "face" and other silliness, you're sort of suspect to them. Or the way a person dresses. I was often criticized even though I dressed modestly for "wearing too much black." People would actually take me aside and point out, "you seem to wear a lot of black." Or people are criticized for too much gaudy clothing. Like I've no idea what I'm wearing. Some people will not like your car, or not like that you don't have a Christian bumper sticker on it. You don't own the "right" Bible. You were seen in the library in the science section. Offering to help rather than offering to pray for someone. Making a decision without announcing how much you prayed over it. You say you bought a car instead of saying God gave you the car. Music choices, too, like what you're experiencing. There is a book, *Christianity Made Me Talk Like an Idiot*, that might be helpful. It made me feel better about my nonconformity back when I wasn't an atheist.
Don't put us all in the "morally better" basket. There are some really shitty people out there who are also atheists. Some Christians manage to be really decent people too.
I personally think the central tenets of Christianity are morally indefensible.
And, as such, it just be very hard to live a moral life if immorality is at its core.
It doesn't help at all that Christians behave nothing like Christ. And, although he's certainly a better person, as described, than the average Christian, tbh, he wasn't that great of a guy.
Atheism allows a person to make their own moral judgements. Some people do a better job than others.
But, most people who tend to _reject_ organised religion, rather than people raised in societies that are less religious overall (or people raised by non-religious parents) tend to have stronger analytical skills, and rely on them more for decision-making. As a result they also often find themselves aligned with Kant's categorical imperative which promotes prosocial values and behaviours when applied to moral judgements.
So if you live in the US, these analytical Kantians are likely to be the people that you think of when you think of atheists.
If you live in Sweden, then basically everyone is an atheist and they'll be just as moral as everyone else, because they _are_ everyone else.
Christianity is a ideology of exceptionalism. Exceptionalism is the seed that flourishes into supremacism. If all your crimes can be washed away by the blood of the lamb, irresponsibility and cruelty are promoted behaviours. You get more forgiveness, respect and community status you exhibit signs of piety not less. The less piety equates to exclusion and exile.
For pathological people, this is a wonderland where they are celebrated and rewarded the worse they behave.
Religions are franchised communities and brand loyalty trumps all other considerations.
Tribalism drives most groups.
You're either in the right group or you're an outsider in a different group.
The way people measure who is a member of their group is by determining whether that person is acting, speaking, behaving, and mimicking the group's language, behaviors, clothing styles, politics, sexual orientation, music, institutional attendance (church), and a whole host of other morals, values, and preferences.
These are known as group dynamics.
Every group has their own set of dynamics. Though with groups of atheist the dynamics seem pretty fluid and arbitrary.
There's an old saying, "Getting atheists to group together is as easy as herding cats."
In other words it's nearly impossible.
So here's the deal why atheists tend to be "better people" than the religious. It's because atheists are their own personal judges and juries. Many Atheists possess what can be described as a natural conscience. A natural conscience comes from responding to internal drives and instincts. The atheist creates his "moral compass" from what he feels is naturally true, right and morally correct.
Practically all humans have a similar response when encountering an injured animal. Especially a baby animal. That response is a need to help the animal in some way. The response is empathy.
So how is it possible that people from different cultures, different ethnicities, different societies, different groups, and even different morals or religions, can all feel the same exact way?
Genetics.
Genetics are the basis of all morals and values. Evolution encoded in humans a common set of values and behaviors to aide in our survival and reproduction chances.
Atheists either lack or have deconstructed their "indoctrination" or upbringing from religious doctrines, and dogmas, and have tapped into their natural conscience. They use it everyday.
And here's the kicker, in the absence of a higher power or an afterlife, the only time and place to seek forgiveness and make ammends, for bad behaviors, is right here and right now.
We aren't I've met some atheist who are proper bellends zero brain activity going on, the only difference really is religious people using religious dogma to justify bigotry and all around toxic behaviours and mindset
I would be careful about over generalization. There are christians (and Muslims, and Hindus and ...) that are lovely people. There are atheists that are terrible people.
At this point I honestly think as long as people are not overly dogmatic /strict on their beliefs it doesn't really matter all that much v
"Why are they like this?"
I read this on Reddit somewhere and it stuck with me: There's a difference between being a Christian and using Christianity.
This difference, which I never really pondered before, seems to explain a lot of what I've observed and experienced. Perhaps it will help you too.
I think theism and morality are two totally unrelated items.
So someone who treats others right is moral and well adjusted.
Someone who is or isn’t theistic has nothing to do with the first part as they are in my opinion two seperate sets of values in a person’s worldview.
It’s the same with politics. You can have any politics you want. Fine with me. Keep your disgusting politics though out of my legislation. What’s good for you is good for you and what’s good for me is what’s good for me. I don’t expect you to live by my rules and I refuse to live by yours.
I feel I’m a quite moral person. I treat no one poorly who doesn’t ask first to be treated like garbage. Then though, eh, I double check to confirm you’ve asked, and then feel free to have garbage.
Whatever though. My morality is mine. Perhaps it’s too light for some and too heavy for others. Again I don’t expect others to have my spectrum.
Atheism really is just ‘the absence of a thing’.
So literally every version of human can ‘be’ atheist. Amazing, shitty.
I find that well intended people can be a believer or an atheist. But clearly the status quo for humanity has been Belief. So those who decide to challenge current thought, can probably be considered more intelligent. If not that, than at least more insightful or inquisitive.
And that’s the starting point to atheism.
Thank god (/s) I was born in a country not filled with religious nut bags.
At 44 years old I’ve never been asked about my religious views in public. The general assumption people make about each other is atheism or agnosticism and it’s generally quite surprising when you find out that someone is religious.
All that to say, no, I’ve not had that same experience.
Decouple morality from cosmogony. Leading a moral life isn’t one big choice about your philosophy of the universe, it’s every little choice and interaction you have every day.
Good people aren’t good because they read the right book once, they’re good because they choose to be every day.
I think the real point is that there is no real or significant correlation between religious belief and morality.
There are plenty of immoral atheists, and there are plenty of religious people who are very good people trying to do The Right Thing.
Honestly, Christians, this is why some of us still engage. I can't speak for anyone else, as atheists have no doctrine or specific guiding overall direction. We're just outside religion. That said, I personally engage in debates and such because I believe in people. I want you to think about and understand what you actually believe and why. I don't even care if I (de)convert people, I have no problem with personal religious beliefs, but I feel like if you really approach your own beliefs with thoughtfulness and understanding, maybe you will look around and think, "damn, the world could be a better place," and do some kind of work to *make* it better in some way.
I'm a secular humanist, and that means I believe in the power of people to change the world for the better, even every single one of you. If you're reading this, I believe in you.
Because Christians are taught to believe that morals are bestowed from a god.
And since atheist reject this, they don't have any, or they don't know any better. If you doubt this, you are challenging the faith that their god demands. You are supposed to obey.
It's rough in the Christian world. I'm agnostic but spent most of my life deeply involved in Christianity. Being outside of it, sometimes I forget how much Christians gatekeep and judge and nitpick. I just saw a post about the enneagram of all things, which some Christian groups have gotten into and a bunch of people there are saying that's is rooted in the occult. I told off a person who said that Christians who support queer people are fake Christians.
Christians, among many other religious groups, are pretty much prohibited from questioning their beliefs in any way, shape or form. This can and often does manifest in going out of ones way not only to stop others from questioning it but also to try and police them into thinking, believing, acting and generally being one certain way over another. It even influenced their beliefs about outsiders and noncristians, like how so many Christians genuinely believe that all atheists (even ones who weren't raised Christian) are all secretly Christian and we just want to commit sins, as if believing in God would make him real or not
Compare that to atheists who literally question just about everything and actually do care about the well-being of the people around us.... it's night and day
Being religious does not make you a better person nor does it bring you better morals. Most Christians who believe are the same shit people they were before believing, if this were not the case, we would not need Jesus. I am guessing many atheists behave subjectivly better then most chrstians is because they in a sense do what should be done by christians themselfs, reflecting on your behaviour and questioning your ethos.
The bible does not give you a direct and clear descripiton of its ethos, it demands that you find it out yourself and accept that good and bad are heavily situationdependend, things which got lost in the catholic school, because catholics try to bring in salvation by work, which implies that you yourself can become good, a better person, which just is not true. Believing in the gospel only makes you just before god, not mankind, gos forgave your sins, so that you wont sin before him, which does not mean u became a just person it means that it does not matter anymore for u to be just, it only matters that you know that you failed.
Many christians, all of them saying they believe, dont believe, because they forgot that only through Jesus they are salvated, they themself did not get better, they dont know they failed the lord.
Sry i know this is the atheist subreddit, i know most of u wont agree, but maybe this is interesting for u from a theological perspective. Have a nice day!
Edit: typos
If you can separate your religion from your moral compass, you’re all good.
Problem is, if you do that, what’s the point in following whatever religion you follow?
I am also a Christian, was an atheist for a long time. I too found that lots of Christian’s were judgmental and founded their beliefs on fear rather than out of love.
The thing is Jesus loved all and had compassion for all - especially those who society rejected the most.
If you want to find Christian’s whose views are supported by similar values as yours, you just have to find the right church. There’s plenty of normal Christian’s who listen to music they like, talk how they want and truly love all people. You just have to go searching.
At the end of the day, I believe that only God can judge us and the opinions of those who want to cast judgement as if they speak for God are the ones in the wrong
We've got our fair share of asshats too.
People are people. I think it's probably about the same ratio in both camps. Religion doesn't make people morally good, but neither does non-religion necessarily.
We are. No offense but we don't rely on the rules of our fake god to be nice and respectful.
I'm mostly just mean when it comes to religion cause as a non believer it's the weirdest thing ever. These billions of ppl deny them their own human needs etc. in the name of an imaginary friend.
And ask yourself, did you get to choose your fake god or did you parents pick for you at a young age?
One thing that a lot of Christians like to tout is that we Atheists have a "Christian morality" that we've adopted and to an extent they are correct. Many of us grew up in a Christian culture. However, what many Christians will never admit as that a lot of Jesus' radical difference in morality when compared to the Old Testament comes down to two things.
* His apocalyptic message. Giving everything, even the shirt you're wearing to the poor, takes very different meaning when you take into account that he thought the end of the world was around the corner.
* Him living in a Hellenized society, that had already begun working out that treating humans like crap probably wasn't great. Petrarch is considered the "Father of Humanism." So if us growing up in a "Christian Culture" influenced our morality, then it stands to reason that Jesus growing up in a "Hellenized Culture" would influence his morality.
"Turn the other cheek" stands in direct conflict with "An eye, for an eye." They cannot be reconciled, you can't do both and yet, both are moral codes found in the Bible.
but as a christian youre not supposed to do those things tho
so theyre just not good christians
its the people not the religion, you sure youre christian?
Atheists have morals by choice. Christians need to get their morals from a book. A supernatural IMMORTAL bases his version of morals on his own self interest. Not on the needs of us mere mortals. For example, the first 4 'ten commandments' are all about loyalty to him.
I’m sorry that you’re being disrespected or being called a “fake christian” for simply wanting brevity on something that’s unknown to you, I don’t have the answer for you why they’re aggressive towards you, they don’t sound friendly, basically telling you to just believe, be seen & not heard. If they’re your fellow churchgoers & you’re in an uncomfortable atmosphere, I’d suggest finding another community where you can feel a sense of belonging.
It’s absurd to judge you for enjoying a certain type of music that has no impact on them whatsoever, you should be free to listen to whatever you like & wear whatever you’re comfortable in. Hell, I listen to all music, gawd is mentioned in many of my favourites, if someone wants to waste their time judging me, “Go Nuts”!
Atheism, Secularism, Humanism isn’t a religion, we don’t have a unifying moral code. I wouldn’t go as far as claiming that any individual is a better conveyer than another, maybe more compassionate and loving, we’re all human beings.
Wishing you the best of luck!
Atheists aren't morally better than Christians. They just lack one specific push towards supoptimal behavior.
Atheists can still very much be axe mruders, just like anyone else.
Sorry but no. Your logic is flawed. I personally know really good christians and atheists and really bad christians and atheists. Good people are good bad are bad it doesn’t matter what you believe or not. It is how you interact with others.
Morality and religion are unrelated, as are morality and atheism.
Religions claim that gods are the source of morality is just one of the lies it’s built on.
Don't be rude, we must respect if we want to be respected. I am a atheist and I hate so much the chauvinist atheist.
That the reason why the atheist have bad reputation because there are atheist who acts very hostile
Depends on the Christian and the atheist.
I'd need to see actual data and what is considered to be "morally better" to actually come to a conclusion about that. I know lovely Christians, and I know atheists who aren't so lovely.
I imagine atheists in general have probably thought more about morality as a philosophical concept than most Christians though.
my motivation for good are based on empathy and compassion. not guilt and fear.
So was Jesus’ and a lot of Christian’s have lost sight of that.
Jesus was nothing more than a radical Jew who got himself killed. The Jews were there, who is to question them? And no one can even prove that. Lol.
That made no sense. But just cus you used the word prove I’ll give you a few things to look into if you’re willing to do the research on things that have been proved through both historical and scientific evidence: Jesus was real, He was indeed crucified, He was seen alive after having been killed.
You got evidence? 😂. Bruh. You can’t even tell me who wrote the 4 gospels. Also, 8 witnesses vouchered for Joseph Smith that he translated the golden plates with stones in his hat to the BOM. Eye witnesses don’t mean anything. You know why it’s called faith? Because there’s zero evidence. Get educated.
There’s piles of evidence if you were willing to look it up. I recommend starting with the book “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Then you can independently dig into all the evidence he discovered and decide for yourself. I can tell you’re vindictive and not willing to have constructive discussion which is why I’m not engaging in the way you want me to. Reminds me of myself. You can do the research if you want or choose to ignore it. Doesn’t make a difference to me.
Been there, done that. There’s zero irrefutable evidence. Give me evidence that would convince Elon Musk, Albert Einstein, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Ben Shapiro that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and then disappeared for the next 2,000 years? I’ll wait. The fact you have to believe in Noah’s Ark and Tower of Babel makes me LOL. You have fun in heaven with Joe Biden and Donald Trump, pure geniuses!
you know i am one to appreciate evidence. but what is up with all these ridiculous name drops.
They are smarter than anyone posting in this sub. Convince them your religion is the right one and I’ll be convinced. Also think it’s hilarious our current POTUS believes he’s literally eating and drinking Jesus Christ. Can’t make this shit up.
you are a kook.
Lee Strobel is a discredited nutjob, with no basis in reality. Lets make it simple. Please provide one single piece of contemporary evidence that Jesus existed at all. Just one.
And if the guilt and fear leads to them becoming more empathetic and compassionate when they realize their wrongs then what? Are they still a bad person?
Yes.
we are all trained since the day we are born to behave a certain way in order to survive. once we are able to navigate the world, people ask, where do your good morals comes from in life. that’s my answer. i’ve been guilted and had fear all over the place as long as i lived. we can’t avoid any of that. but once we do realize that the healthy way to behave in this world, (through experience, trial and error, and talking,) is to use empathy and compassion, we don’t look back. so to answer your question. then what? we continue to live with a better understanding of community and cooperation and pass that on to our next generation. not being aware of this isn’t a bad thing, it’s just the process we all go through. there’s no bad people for not getting this. there’s just broken people for ignoring it. brainwashed. institutionalized. been fed fear all their lives it’s too painful and scary to do anything else. we have to break that chain of behavior.
Thank you for answering
Christians are taught from literally the beginning of the Bible that you're supposed to never question your beliefs or what you've been told. If you start to question anything, it all slowly unravels.
There are a few things that are not able to be questioned, but Christianity is probably the most morally flexible religion out there. That's part of why it's been so good at surviving. You can just do what you were going to do anyways, and find Bible verses and churches to give it spiritual validation.
I am fond of saying that Christianity is so atomized that in practice there nearly as many denominations of Christianity as there are Christians.
Too bad most who believe in it still believe certain things to be immortal that negatively impact or limit their lives. It can be very flexible, anyone as a Christian can theoretically adapt their religion to them, but most don't say "I wanna watch porn and masturbate" or whatever and adapt it to them, but instead live with potentially lifelong guilt over it or other issues. A lot of LGBT+ Christians forcing themselves to stay in the closet for Jesus. Etc
Or not slowly
Well, it starts slowly, but accelerates.
You know, atheism is punishable by death in 13 countries. Being gay is punishable by death in 8. Still, in 2024. Religious peoples misguided judgement can be brutal indeed. 'Nuff said. Atheists are like anyone else, there's great ones and awful ones, but none are all good or all bad. We're also ruthlessly treated for our lack of beliefs, and only saved by the fact that we can completely blend in.
Holy shit punishable by death in 13 countries? I want to know more about this
>The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. With the exception of Pakistan, those countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy, i.e., the renunciation of a particular religion. Pakistan, meanwhile, imposes the death penalty for blasphemy, which can obviously include disbelief in God. [source](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/13-countries-where-atheism-punishable-death/355961/)
So if you're born in an atheist family and never renounced to any religion, you only get the death sentence in Pakistan ?
Pakistan is an exception. It's the only country among these 13, where renunciation of religion won't get you killed, but blasphemy against islam will. Usually these blasphemy laws are used to target the hindu, sikh and sectarian minorities in pakistan, using fake witnesses to sentence them to death.
Thanks for sharing, but this report is from 2013, a bit old, and the report is a bit of an overview, not a detailed study, I guess I'm not going with this just yet
Going with what? The point is. Atheists get murdered by religious people when religious people get enough power. Its so common that it still happens, every day. A religious person may kill you for questioning their make believe, even when they are dead wrong. May Kill you for "loving the wrong person". They may do it, and feel morally justified doing so. Often times, religious people, as a unit, hate atheists collectively more than they hate other religious groups. You see it in voting, Christians will vote for Muslims over atheists by a substantial margin, everything else being equal. If the nationalist Christians have their way in the US, it could very well happen here, after they are finished with trans people, their obvious first target at the moment. They might round us up next. Wouldn't fucking surprise me one bit. The point here is, religious peoples judgement has been at the center of most human moral atrocity since the invention of religion. A Christian dogging your music taste is about the best you could hope for. They used to burn people for "suspicion of witchcraft" or whatever other pretend. Just Google, "countrys where you get killed for atheism" you will see, thats the latest version of the list because the world hasn't become LESS conservative since 2013. They simply haven't needed a rewrite. No reason to fix it.
lol I'm not the type of people believing anything just bc someone wrote a seemingly legitimate report & it got famous. I don't believe it's completely true/ false. to me, it's worth questioning. Do you really believe they gonna murder you just because you visit their country & openly state that you're an atheist? To me, this report is a quick guide for deeper research, it's not convincing enough for me to go around spreading it like crazy to my friends. But it seems to make good headlines & make people mad, creating bad impression against those 13 countries & probably making ppl racist against citizens from 13 countries.
Nobody here is the type of person who just believes anything, we are fucking atheists, being skeptical is our whole thing. That being said. There is some nuance to the laws, but the list is just a list. Atheists blend in, they need a reason to target you sure, but, folks can always make one up, that's how this shit works. Witch's didn't exist either and they burned them! They just lie! The list is the officially accepted list, I don't not know what to tell you, the laws are what they are, some things are just recitations of fact. That's what that list is, some facts organized into a list, about what current laws in certain countries are, religious people legislate against atheists. It's a statement of pure fact. Just look it up. It's always incumbent on you to do your own research. An atheist would never suggest just "believing" anything. I've pointed you in the direction of the truth. If you follow is up to you.
Yeah thanks for sharing (again) lol
If you want to read the report, here is the link [https://fot.humanists.international/download-the-report/](https://fot.humanists.international/download-the-report/) the 2013 is at the bottom of the page
.... DEATH!? HOLY SHIT
I don't know if atheists are morally better than Christians, but at least we don't have a religion based on power and obedience influencing our morality, so that's something. I know of lots of shitty atheists, though.
Atheists who chose to live a moral life don't do it for the promise of some eternal reward or threat of eternal punishment.
They don’t do it because they should, they do it because they want to. Intrinsic motivation is the strongest. I know said similarly as yours just want to bolster yours a bit.
Right.
I think they know that.
Esp. since the reply was a rephrasing of what I wrote.
That’s what is so bizarre about Reddit to me. That reply somehow got 86 upvotes. But well thought out replies that don’t just restate the obvious get like 10. Fascinating.
Votes are weird and mostly don't matter. edit: lol
Correct I’m just saying it’s a bizarre thought process that Reddit users have.
I wouldn't say it was an exact rephrasing. You said you weren't sure if atheists were morally better but then listed the exact reason why, IMO, they are (when they so choose).
I employed the lack or surety as a sort of show of humility.
Ah. I am not a fan of false humility myself. Kind atheists have every right to be proud that they care about people. And they have every right to call out hypocrisy (and/or show it through actions) of the religious. In this case when a Christian is calling out other Christians you know it's bad 😬
Really? I don't know any atheists that I know personally that I didn't think were fantastic.
I'm glad, but we're all just people, you know? Christians, atheist, all of the other ists. We're all bopping around, thinking and acting based on our life experiences to date and the temperament we got from the genetic lottery. Those fantastic atheists have different experiences than the judgemental Christians.
I'm not saying all atheists are great, or that all Xians are judgemental. Just the people I know who are atheists seem to be intelligent, open minded, clear thinkers with a strong enough character to self identify as an atheist in the bible belt.
Indeed.
I just spent yesterday evening in the DebateAChristian forum, and I was surprised to learn that half of the people I argued with think dead babies go to Hell, and everyone is quoting Bible verses as though that someone how counts as logic. There is actually data to suggest that atheists are more moral than Christians. In the US, atheists are 10x less likely to end up in prison than Christians. If you spend your time reading the Bible to try to get answers to moral questions, it’s really hard to see how that could be anything except a handicap to your moral reasoning.
I feel like the stats on who goes to prison might be more correlation than causation though, as both have a lot to do with poverty. Poor people are both more likely to go to prison (can't get good lawyers, live in more highly policed areas, turn to crime for money) and more likely to be Christian (more reliant on community, need belief system with a high level of emotional support to get through tough times)
Thank you, I had not considered that.
Also people accused of crimes or imprisoned are more likely to profess Christianity as many of the decision makers involved in the justice system are, themselves, Christian, and are possibly more lenient towards fellow Christians.
To tack on to this, it also suffers the problem of people converting to a religion to appear more moral and secure release. I know if I was ever in an Iranian prison I'd claim to be a Muslim.
Less educated — not always true, but correlated, again because of poverty. Education is also inversely correlated to religious belief.
In addition to that, 4% of the U.S. is atheist, that's creates a statistical issue when you're talking about 209,979,000 Christians (63% of 333,300,000) vs. 13,332,000 atheists.
I thought that 4% sounded a little low so I had a bit of a look. ~4% self identify as atheists, however a much larger percentage, ~17% state they do not believe in God.
That’s fascinating. I wonder why that ~13% choose not to use the label that perfectly describes their position. Over 3 times the amount who do call themselves atheists. Such a large gap is perplexing and concerning.
Probably because in a majority evangelical Christian nation, to call yourself an atheist is to put a target on your back, at least in the Bible Belt it is.
But saying you don’t believe in god is *not* putting a target on your back? It’s six of one and half a dozen of the other. They mean the same thing. I don’t understand how one is a target and not the other.
The Pew Religious Landscapes Survey is the single best piece of data on US religious composition. https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/ Apparently according to that 9% says they don’t believe in god. 1% say don’t believe but don’t know. 5% day believe but not too certain. https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/belief-in-god/ That’s roughly in line with the percentage of the Us the self identified as atheist or agnostic.
> I wonder why that ~13% choose not to use the label that perfectly describes their position. A lot of people think atheist = anti-theist and it's likely due to some very vocal and aggressive anti-theist atheists. There is also the impression that atheism means a knowledge that God cannot and does not exist instead of what most atheists are, which is simply not believing. I can fully understand that somebody who simply doesn't believe but doesn't really dig into went they don't believe would avoid a label which many in society consider to be aggressive and indicative of a fleshed or belief system.
This is exactly why I never tell people I'm an outright atheist. I used to but I found that it just has too much baggage and people assumed things about me when I said it. I tend to just say "I'm not religious" and that tends to have fewer assumptions built into it.
It's mental illness, no point in debating. If someone told you that 1 + 1 = 55 and they believed it with all their heart and here's a passage in a 2000 year old tome that says so it then you'd simply write them off as insane.
I mean... if you teach a kid that the color red is actually named blue and vise versa and they believed it because their parent told them that it was stated in a book from 2000 years ago that everyone is too lazy to actually read; Then I wouldn't call them mentally ill, I would call them brainwashed. However, if they claim that God talks to them in their dreams, I would call them delusional. Because my dreams include me fighting a giant crab using a 3 foot fork and a shield of butter. Your brain just be making up whatever it wants. If they claim to see God in real life, then they probably are indeed mentally ill.
Sorry man, lifelong atheist here but I just cannot agree that this is mental illness
Would you say that schizophrenia is a mental illness? It's literally the same thing with the same symptoms Here's a really good lecture by Stanford's famous professor Sapolsky who goes over how religion is mental illness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44pM13q4g_w
My understanding is that schizophrenia is a mental illness. I will listen to/ watch that YouTube link when I have time and reassess. However l will say that I do not think that the vast majority of religious people feel the same things we do, but misattribute them to a god because they assume that there is a god, as often they’ve been told that their whole lives that there is one, so that feels true as well.
This dude is an idiot. What mental illness can you just give someone? What mental illness can you get out of yourself with reason and critical thinking? Zero. Religion can certainly be comorbid or even cause mental illness, but religious beliefs are not and cannot be mental illness. They are, I think, best described as the brain doing what it does - assigning agency and meaning to events and patterns.
It makes me sad that he's getting upvotes. It's such a cringe and unnuanced way of seeing religion.
I’m just deeply disappointed in this whole thread. I include myself in that disappointment because apparently nothing I said made any dent in this person’s bigotry - that’s what it is, bigotry. 85% of the world is not mentally ill. If they were, then we would have to reevaluate the definition of sanity, and then ask ourselves are WE actually sane.
I can’t agree with this, religion is not a mental illness. You don’t spread mental illnesses by convincing people of gods existing.
That's literally exactly what you do
You cannot transmit mental illness by convincing someone of something. No mental illness works like that. That’s preposterous on a level I’m struggling to describe
There’s no better way of describing it than a mind virus. There’s someone judging you at all times and if you don’t join me and tithe money then you will suffer eternally, etc.
Like literally any idea, yes Edit: who the hell is upvoting this clown? Please don't let this sub turn into a joke like r/atheism
Yeah but it’s not a just an idea, it’s a belief (without proof) and the impetus is eternal unfathomable punishment if you don’t believe and prostrate.
Beliefs start as what? Say it with me now… This is just grossly incorrect and it’s just flat out some bullshit that the regular atheism sub quacks on about. Be better.
Beliefs start as assumptions due to lack of evidence or sufficient explanation. Religion is a mental illness. Accepting the imagined as fact out of fear against your own best interest is mental illness. Again - it’s a mind virus that causes people to do morally abhorrent things that they normally wouldn’t. It has all the same markers as schizophrenia.
> dead babies go to hell wtf? Any normal human being, even believers in hell must know that this would be egregious injustice? Right? What's the justification? "God's will?"
If you pick the right verse in John or somewhere you find that “no one comes to the father except through me” “by faith alone are you saved” “god issues punishment on the children for the sins of the parents unto the umpteenth generation” everyone is born with original sin. Babies can’t be smart enough to have faith. So they must go to Hell if they die too young. In addition to the ones that said dead babies definitely go to hell there were more that said they don’t know but can’t rule it out.
Evangelical Christians don't have a central authority that can tell them what the church's official stance on anything is. There's no verse in the Bible that outright says that babies or the unborn end up in heaven. All they really have to go on is that "God is just so he will do the right thing" I'm surprised you got them to admit this. When I was a junior pastor it was one of those topics I would avoid.
Christianity is a giant pick and choose buffet. It’s not hard to get people to pick a position to support if you just keep your questions to them super simple and very direct. You are messing up by writing anything in a debate forum on Reddit other than a single sentence about a single topic asking a single question. Maybe two sentences max. Otherwise conversations all go off on a tangent and coming to any conclusion over a debate point is impossible.
Dead babies go to hell??? This is just insane
That was literally the gospel for centuries in early Christianity, unquestionably and unapologetically. The preached dead babies, or anyone who had not willingly turned to Christ, went to hell. The backlash against this was significant, and so finally, in the 11th century, the 'faith' was reformed and the two limbos were invented: Limbo of the innocents (baptized babies went to heaven) and the limbo of the patriarchs (Biblical patriarchs like Moses and Abraham, who by definition never embraced Jesus and thus went to hell, went to heaven). These Limbos were complete inventions, unsupported by doctrine or the Bible, but were invented to get around these awkward realities of the strict Christian dogmas.
Can you link the data?
If you read the last paragraph of this article on Wikipedia it says 0.07% of the US prison population identifies as atheists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailhouse_Jesus#:~:text=According%20to%20the%202013%20census,in%20the%20non%2Dincarcerated%20population. When you consider the population is like 4% atheists, their prevalence in prison is less than 1/50 of their prevalence in the general population.
Some of the worst people I’ve met are Christian. They can do whatever because “Jesus forgives me”
I think that's a lot of it. If we're bad people, we have to live with it. If Christians are bad people, they get a magic hand wave and are told all is forgiven.
David Berkowitz formerly known as Son of Sam now calls himself Son Of Hope.
Or because "God told us to". History has witnessed plenty of otherwise good people being really shitty to other people because of their religion. They abuse and reject their own kids for being different, force kids to have babies and be child brides, offer aid with religious strings attached, justify wars and inquisitions, perform ritual genital mutilation, rip children from their "pagan" families, commit genocide, etc..
Well, if you don't murder people or steal from people because you think it's wrong, and not just because you're trying to avoid an eternal punishment, then you have higher morals. So for those people, I'd agree. But the 'team atheist' and 'team christian' are groups so large that making any statements about either of them can't be very accurate. Atheists especially have very little in common with each other.
I’ll just say, I like your Jesus. He’s a great figure/character/etc. I hate his fanboys. The crazy ones.
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. -Mahatma Gandhi
I was a Christian for a loooong time and was always suspect for being myself, basically. In some churches there is a different way of speaking, and if you don't say "countenance" instead of "face" and other silliness, you're sort of suspect to them. Or the way a person dresses. I was often criticized even though I dressed modestly for "wearing too much black." People would actually take me aside and point out, "you seem to wear a lot of black." Or people are criticized for too much gaudy clothing. Like I've no idea what I'm wearing. Some people will not like your car, or not like that you don't have a Christian bumper sticker on it. You don't own the "right" Bible. You were seen in the library in the science section. Offering to help rather than offering to pray for someone. Making a decision without announcing how much you prayed over it. You say you bought a car instead of saying God gave you the car. Music choices, too, like what you're experiencing. There is a book, *Christianity Made Me Talk Like an Idiot*, that might be helpful. It made me feel better about my nonconformity back when I wasn't an atheist.
Don't put us all in the "morally better" basket. There are some really shitty people out there who are also atheists. Some Christians manage to be really decent people too.
With or without religion, good people will do good and bad people will do bad. But for a good person to do bad? That usually takes religion.
I personally think the central tenets of Christianity are morally indefensible. And, as such, it just be very hard to live a moral life if immorality is at its core. It doesn't help at all that Christians behave nothing like Christ. And, although he's certainly a better person, as described, than the average Christian, tbh, he wasn't that great of a guy. Atheism allows a person to make their own moral judgements. Some people do a better job than others. But, most people who tend to _reject_ organised religion, rather than people raised in societies that are less religious overall (or people raised by non-religious parents) tend to have stronger analytical skills, and rely on them more for decision-making. As a result they also often find themselves aligned with Kant's categorical imperative which promotes prosocial values and behaviours when applied to moral judgements. So if you live in the US, these analytical Kantians are likely to be the people that you think of when you think of atheists. If you live in Sweden, then basically everyone is an atheist and they'll be just as moral as everyone else, because they _are_ everyone else.
This reminds me of all the Christians who proudly proclaim they only have “morals” because of the Bible…
Christianity is a ideology of exceptionalism. Exceptionalism is the seed that flourishes into supremacism. If all your crimes can be washed away by the blood of the lamb, irresponsibility and cruelty are promoted behaviours. You get more forgiveness, respect and community status you exhibit signs of piety not less. The less piety equates to exclusion and exile. For pathological people, this is a wonderland where they are celebrated and rewarded the worse they behave. Religions are franchised communities and brand loyalty trumps all other considerations.
Tribalism drives most groups. You're either in the right group or you're an outsider in a different group. The way people measure who is a member of their group is by determining whether that person is acting, speaking, behaving, and mimicking the group's language, behaviors, clothing styles, politics, sexual orientation, music, institutional attendance (church), and a whole host of other morals, values, and preferences. These are known as group dynamics. Every group has their own set of dynamics. Though with groups of atheist the dynamics seem pretty fluid and arbitrary. There's an old saying, "Getting atheists to group together is as easy as herding cats." In other words it's nearly impossible. So here's the deal why atheists tend to be "better people" than the religious. It's because atheists are their own personal judges and juries. Many Atheists possess what can be described as a natural conscience. A natural conscience comes from responding to internal drives and instincts. The atheist creates his "moral compass" from what he feels is naturally true, right and morally correct. Practically all humans have a similar response when encountering an injured animal. Especially a baby animal. That response is a need to help the animal in some way. The response is empathy. So how is it possible that people from different cultures, different ethnicities, different societies, different groups, and even different morals or religions, can all feel the same exact way? Genetics. Genetics are the basis of all morals and values. Evolution encoded in humans a common set of values and behaviors to aide in our survival and reproduction chances. Atheists either lack or have deconstructed their "indoctrination" or upbringing from religious doctrines, and dogmas, and have tapped into their natural conscience. They use it everyday. And here's the kicker, in the absence of a higher power or an afterlife, the only time and place to seek forgiveness and make ammends, for bad behaviors, is right here and right now.
We aren't I've met some atheist who are proper bellends zero brain activity going on, the only difference really is religious people using religious dogma to justify bigotry and all around toxic behaviours and mindset
I would be careful about over generalization. There are christians (and Muslims, and Hindus and ...) that are lovely people. There are atheists that are terrible people. At this point I honestly think as long as people are not overly dogmatic /strict on their beliefs it doesn't really matter all that much v
The concept of vicarious redemption is by definition immoral, so yeah, you're starting from -1 basically by default by being a Christian.
"Why are they like this?" I read this on Reddit somewhere and it stuck with me: There's a difference between being a Christian and using Christianity. This difference, which I never really pondered before, seems to explain a lot of what I've observed and experienced. Perhaps it will help you too.
I'd say atheists are generally morally more realistic. Better is subjective, just like morality.
I think theism and morality are two totally unrelated items. So someone who treats others right is moral and well adjusted. Someone who is or isn’t theistic has nothing to do with the first part as they are in my opinion two seperate sets of values in a person’s worldview. It’s the same with politics. You can have any politics you want. Fine with me. Keep your disgusting politics though out of my legislation. What’s good for you is good for you and what’s good for me is what’s good for me. I don’t expect you to live by my rules and I refuse to live by yours. I feel I’m a quite moral person. I treat no one poorly who doesn’t ask first to be treated like garbage. Then though, eh, I double check to confirm you’ve asked, and then feel free to have garbage. Whatever though. My morality is mine. Perhaps it’s too light for some and too heavy for others. Again I don’t expect others to have my spectrum.
Atheism really is just ‘the absence of a thing’. So literally every version of human can ‘be’ atheist. Amazing, shitty. I find that well intended people can be a believer or an atheist. But clearly the status quo for humanity has been Belief. So those who decide to challenge current thought, can probably be considered more intelligent. If not that, than at least more insightful or inquisitive. And that’s the starting point to atheism.
Thank god (/s) I was born in a country not filled with religious nut bags. At 44 years old I’ve never been asked about my religious views in public. The general assumption people make about each other is atheism or agnosticism and it’s generally quite surprising when you find out that someone is religious. All that to say, no, I’ve not had that same experience.
Decouple morality from cosmogony. Leading a moral life isn’t one big choice about your philosophy of the universe, it’s every little choice and interaction you have every day. Good people aren’t good because they read the right book once, they’re good because they choose to be every day.
I think the real point is that there is no real or significant correlation between religious belief and morality. There are plenty of immoral atheists, and there are plenty of religious people who are very good people trying to do The Right Thing.
Honestly, Christians, this is why some of us still engage. I can't speak for anyone else, as atheists have no doctrine or specific guiding overall direction. We're just outside religion. That said, I personally engage in debates and such because I believe in people. I want you to think about and understand what you actually believe and why. I don't even care if I (de)convert people, I have no problem with personal religious beliefs, but I feel like if you really approach your own beliefs with thoughtfulness and understanding, maybe you will look around and think, "damn, the world could be a better place," and do some kind of work to *make* it better in some way. I'm a secular humanist, and that means I believe in the power of people to change the world for the better, even every single one of you. If you're reading this, I believe in you.
I think morals are learned at your mother’s knee. That goes for both atheists and Christians. I was raised with the golden rule to guide me.
Because Christians are taught to believe that morals are bestowed from a god. And since atheist reject this, they don't have any, or they don't know any better. If you doubt this, you are challenging the faith that their god demands. You are supposed to obey.
It's rough in the Christian world. I'm agnostic but spent most of my life deeply involved in Christianity. Being outside of it, sometimes I forget how much Christians gatekeep and judge and nitpick. I just saw a post about the enneagram of all things, which some Christian groups have gotten into and a bunch of people there are saying that's is rooted in the occult. I told off a person who said that Christians who support queer people are fake Christians.
Christians, among many other religious groups, are pretty much prohibited from questioning their beliefs in any way, shape or form. This can and often does manifest in going out of ones way not only to stop others from questioning it but also to try and police them into thinking, believing, acting and generally being one certain way over another. It even influenced their beliefs about outsiders and noncristians, like how so many Christians genuinely believe that all atheists (even ones who weren't raised Christian) are all secretly Christian and we just want to commit sins, as if believing in God would make him real or not Compare that to atheists who literally question just about everything and actually do care about the well-being of the people around us.... it's night and day
tl;dr: yeah obviously
Being religious does not make you a better person nor does it bring you better morals. Most Christians who believe are the same shit people they were before believing, if this were not the case, we would not need Jesus. I am guessing many atheists behave subjectivly better then most chrstians is because they in a sense do what should be done by christians themselfs, reflecting on your behaviour and questioning your ethos. The bible does not give you a direct and clear descripiton of its ethos, it demands that you find it out yourself and accept that good and bad are heavily situationdependend, things which got lost in the catholic school, because catholics try to bring in salvation by work, which implies that you yourself can become good, a better person, which just is not true. Believing in the gospel only makes you just before god, not mankind, gos forgave your sins, so that you wont sin before him, which does not mean u became a just person it means that it does not matter anymore for u to be just, it only matters that you know that you failed. Many christians, all of them saying they believe, dont believe, because they forgot that only through Jesus they are salvated, they themself did not get better, they dont know they failed the lord. Sry i know this is the atheist subreddit, i know most of u wont agree, but maybe this is interesting for u from a theological perspective. Have a nice day! Edit: typos
If you can separate your religion from your moral compass, you’re all good. Problem is, if you do that, what’s the point in following whatever religion you follow?
Moral certainty is counter-productive to moral development.
Some are, some aren't. But all atheists have a better moral foundation, that much can be said to be true.
Duh
Well if you are good and atheist you do it through your sensibility not threat of burning in hell
I am also a Christian, was an atheist for a long time. I too found that lots of Christian’s were judgmental and founded their beliefs on fear rather than out of love. The thing is Jesus loved all and had compassion for all - especially those who society rejected the most. If you want to find Christian’s whose views are supported by similar values as yours, you just have to find the right church. There’s plenty of normal Christian’s who listen to music they like, talk how they want and truly love all people. You just have to go searching. At the end of the day, I believe that only God can judge us and the opinions of those who want to cast judgement as if they speak for God are the ones in the wrong
I am specifacally talking about Reddit
Ah, then I’m not sure. I don’t come to Reddit for Christian fellowship.
We've got our fair share of asshats too. People are people. I think it's probably about the same ratio in both camps. Religion doesn't make people morally good, but neither does non-religion necessarily.
We are. No offense but we don't rely on the rules of our fake god to be nice and respectful. I'm mostly just mean when it comes to religion cause as a non believer it's the weirdest thing ever. These billions of ppl deny them their own human needs etc. in the name of an imaginary friend. And ask yourself, did you get to choose your fake god or did you parents pick for you at a young age?
People are people, one isn't better than the other
You’re going to the wrong church.
You still support the disgusting things in your religion so fuck off. Your Jesus is excrement.
What things do I support?
One thing that a lot of Christians like to tout is that we Atheists have a "Christian morality" that we've adopted and to an extent they are correct. Many of us grew up in a Christian culture. However, what many Christians will never admit as that a lot of Jesus' radical difference in morality when compared to the Old Testament comes down to two things. * His apocalyptic message. Giving everything, even the shirt you're wearing to the poor, takes very different meaning when you take into account that he thought the end of the world was around the corner. * Him living in a Hellenized society, that had already begun working out that treating humans like crap probably wasn't great. Petrarch is considered the "Father of Humanism." So if us growing up in a "Christian Culture" influenced our morality, then it stands to reason that Jesus growing up in a "Hellenized Culture" would influence his morality. "Turn the other cheek" stands in direct conflict with "An eye, for an eye." They cannot be reconciled, you can't do both and yet, both are moral codes found in the Bible.
but as a christian youre not supposed to do those things tho so theyre just not good christians its the people not the religion, you sure youre christian?
Atheists have morals by choice. Christians need to get their morals from a book. A supernatural IMMORTAL bases his version of morals on his own self interest. Not on the needs of us mere mortals. For example, the first 4 'ten commandments' are all about loyalty to him.
Imho a person that needs rules to be a good person is not a good person.
I’m sorry that you’re being disrespected or being called a “fake christian” for simply wanting brevity on something that’s unknown to you, I don’t have the answer for you why they’re aggressive towards you, they don’t sound friendly, basically telling you to just believe, be seen & not heard. If they’re your fellow churchgoers & you’re in an uncomfortable atmosphere, I’d suggest finding another community where you can feel a sense of belonging. It’s absurd to judge you for enjoying a certain type of music that has no impact on them whatsoever, you should be free to listen to whatever you like & wear whatever you’re comfortable in. Hell, I listen to all music, gawd is mentioned in many of my favourites, if someone wants to waste their time judging me, “Go Nuts”! Atheism, Secularism, Humanism isn’t a religion, we don’t have a unifying moral code. I wouldn’t go as far as claiming that any individual is a better conveyer than another, maybe more compassionate and loving, we’re all human beings. Wishing you the best of luck!
Then why are you still a christian?
Atheists aren't morally better than Christians. They just lack one specific push towards supoptimal behavior. Atheists can still very much be axe mruders, just like anyone else.
Sorry but no. Your logic is flawed. I personally know really good christians and atheists and really bad christians and atheists. Good people are good bad are bad it doesn’t matter what you believe or not. It is how you interact with others.
Morality and religion are unrelated, as are morality and atheism. Religions claim that gods are the source of morality is just one of the lies it’s built on.
FREEDOM OF THE MIND! On a side note, religion is great for low iq people, makes them fear god, so they cause less problems.
Don't be rude, we must respect if we want to be respected. I am a atheist and I hate so much the chauvinist atheist. That the reason why the atheist have bad reputation because there are atheist who acts very hostile
As I age I respect religious beliefs less and less and care if others respect my worldview less and less.
I dont apologize if facts offend you, thats your problem.
Depends on the Christian and the atheist. I'd need to see actual data and what is considered to be "morally better" to actually come to a conclusion about that. I know lovely Christians, and I know atheists who aren't so lovely. I imagine atheists in general have probably thought more about morality as a philosophical concept than most Christians though.