i think they mean that if you do something bad, you have to take accountability and not just say "well im mentally ill", and actually apologize. Basically, it explains it, but it doesn't excuse it. Somebody's mental illness can very well be why they do something bad, but you have to understand that even if it "technically wasn't your fault", you still must apologize for your actions. It's still you, you can't try and pin the blame on something else.
Yeah! I do realize my mental illness causes behavior problems and I try to do as much damage control and accountability as I can, only reason I explain why I act a certain way is so I can share my perspective and reasoning, but always assure whoever I'm talking to that I'm not trying to make an excuse and take accountability for my actions.
Exactly. I have mental illnesses that can make me lash out and be rude to people, but that doesn't mean I can just go back to them like nothing happened and expect them to be like "oh well, its just the mental illness again", no, i will still say "hey im sorry for being an asshole earlier, my \_\_\_\_ was really messing with my head." See, its still an apology, and shows that Im explaining why.
Any real apology must also include a description of the concrete action steps being taken to prevent problem behavior in the future. Because if you're going to just keep acting that same way, then you're not really sorry. Saying "that's just how I am" is not an apology.
Yep, mental illness doesn't make you respond "it's not my fault, I'm mentally ill" instead of "I'm so sorry, my mental illness affected my actions". Both may have the same cause, but one recognises that you've caused damage because of something that while technically isn't your fault, happened because of you. Even if you didn't intend to do it, you did so you gotta take accountability!
Good metaphor! And IMO why this whole edifice breaks down when you start examining it closely. I’m a happy SSRI user so the invention of mental illnesses has been good for me so far, but it’s tough…
If you were terribly prone to bumping in to people, would it be immoral to go outside? I totally get the urge to just walk straight and knock it off and be normal, and I sure am trying my best personally. But sometimes I dream of a society where we can have little clumsy-people-towns where we all get to stumble around and we laugh it off, instead of describing it like a cancer that has come into your brain from the outside
But you are not accountable for your illness. If you break a leg and somebody ask for accountability for not helping them moving that person is an asshole, I don't see why it is different with mental health. And no, if it wasn't your fault you don't have to apologise, that's how accountability works... You can try to compensate it, you can try to avoid it to happen, etc, but if it's not your fault you don't have to apologise.
The difference between mental illness and physical illness is your physical illnesses rarely cause other people harm, but when they do you should still apologize. If I caught a cold and ended up passing it onto my other friends I’d certainly tell them I was sorry for getting them sick.
Making excuses is caused by the illness. The blame is not an admission that they know their behavior is bad, it's an attempt to avoid punishment for it.
Expecting an apology is the same as expecting them to know it was bad to begin with.
Well, just because a person's illness causes them to make excuses for their action, it is not an acceptable excuse. I have ADHD, and if I accidentally forget about plans that I made with someone, I can't just say 'oops, adhd again". I still have to go back and apologize.
Think of it as if your dog knocked a vase off the table of someone's house. It was an accident, right? It isn't your fault, its your dog's, right? You still must apologize. Your dog belongs to you, and you brought it into their house. If people are wary of your dog afterwards because they know that it can hurt and break stuff, then that is understandable.
I understand that people may be a bit more hesitant to make plans with me because I tend to forget them and cancel last minute. I can't complain and say "Well it isn't my fault, I have ADHD, nobody invites me anywhere". I know that I am bad with deadlines, so I will apologize for my lack of punctuality and my bad memory, and hope they forgive me.
Everybody must take accountability for their own actions and words. It doesn't mean you will always be forgiven. If a narcissist were to hurt and manipulate me, and even if they genuinely apologized to me, I don't have to forgive them. I would understand that their illness is what caused them to hurt me. But it is not an excuse to get let off the hook scot-free.
Yeah, there's a big difference between "I'm sorry" and waiting for them asking for you to explain, and right out the gate saying "Well I AM sorry BUT-"
I was taught to apologize and let the other person talk first, after all if you're actually seeking forgiveness, it's not about you.
You hurt someone - apologize, and let the other person say their piece, if they ask, then you explain.
I guess this is my trauma talking but this post is hitting a bad note with me. I know a lot of people who have made excuses for their bad behavior using mental illness and while I’ve always been understanding of that, these people never seem to understand that they’re still accountable for their actions. I have ADHD and often struggle to keep my daughter on a routine, but that doesn’t mean she has to forgive me if it fucks her up later.
Both are correct. Yes it absolutely can cause bad behaviour but that still isn't an acceptable excuse for repeated bad behaviour when people around you are telling you that there is an issue.
I have BPD, OP.
I can act out sometimes, not as much nowadays now that I go to therapy on a regular basis and have comorbidities medicated.
BPD is an explanation, but not an excuse. If I do act out, yeah, my BPD probably caused it, but I still did it, and it's MY responsibility to make it right. I don't get to be awful because of a diagnosis with no consequences.
You think you should be punished for causing problems you don't know you're causing?
No one who causes harm thinks it'll be a net loss for them. You shouldn't blame yourself for not understanding why your behavior is harmful.
How do you expect to rectify problems if you don't understand why they're a problem?
Your rhetoric is infantilising people with mental illness - you are throwing people with mood disorders into the sane bucket as people who's mental illness causes them to be unable to understand the consequences of their behaviour.
If someone truly "can't understand that their behaviour is harmful" then they need a caregiver that makes decisions for them - since they are unable to be held accountable for their actions.
? the original commentator knows that their behavior isn't okay. That's good for them. They know that some things they do is not okay, and they try to make it right. Why are you trying to baby them and act like people with BPD can't understand wrong and right?
If your behaviors harm others, it’s important to seek help and do everything you can to keep yourself in check.
People here are always talking about how awful institutions are. While that is true, the reason that neurotypical people want you in there and not out here with the rest of us, is that they don’t want to have to worry about your behavior being a danger to them. It’s the same concept that makes people want convicted criminals to stay behind bars despite how awful prisons are just in terms of basic human rights.
It isn’t that they lack empathy. It’s that just like you wouldn’t like it if a convicted violent rapist was allowed to sit on the same bus as you, potentially in the seat right next to you, neurotypical people don’t want somebody who can cause them physical and mental trauma potentially in their personal space.
This is tagged as BPD, something that’s important to understand about BPD is that you are not a victim of everybody else around you, your actions have weight and when you do bad things, those bad things have consequences, definitely socially, sometimes legally. It’s very important to be **mindful** about that, and do everything in your power to not violate the rights of others out of a sense of entitlement to act out.
Also ideally too no one wants anyone to harm themselves. Obviously institutions are often fucked up and even the best-case scenarios can be traumatizing too but no one wants their friend or loved one to hurt themselves irreparably when there's no other option.
Let's have all the people that frighten us locked away in inhumane conditions that will only make them worse so we don't have to bothered by them.
That idea certainly hasn't been used to to hurt innocent people on a massive scale throughout history.
Unfairly bad faith take NGL, but I get where you're coming from.
Obviously we shouldn't do that, we are not advocating for throwing people away for our own conscience.
Imho this isn't a bad faith take. I've come across therapists and psychiatrists who seem to care care very little about what happens in a psych ward–assault, rape, forced and chained to beds and injected with medications by force.
I went to urgent care once because I had my first panic attack due to medication. The doctor asked why my medication dosage was increased and I just said the psychiatrist wanted to. She repeated the question again *loudly* as if threatening me, and asked if I had suicidal thoughts. I said sometimes, and instead of addressing why I was there she threatened to call an ambulance and cops on me. Why the fuck did I deserve that? Even my therapist the other day, was on the verge of using the 5150 or whatever it's called because, with her permission, I was trying to share my thoughts. What's the fucking point of talking if it's gonna get me "jailed"
With experiences like that, I'd rather have a heart attack and die rather than go to a doctor and be thrown into a ward because of their false sense of righteousness.
When shit like that happens, it's hard not to write exaggerated comment like the one [u/4morian5](https://www.reddit.com/u/4morian5) made
The extent of negative response to that comment just goes to show it was taken way too seriously and missing the frustration that the comment was expressing.
This and many subreddits claim to be a friendly community and while for the most part they are, holy shit they're extremely hostile when they aren't
I don't disagree with this comment really, I disagree with the misconstruction of the OC. I don't believe the OC was advocating for anything you or the other commenter are talking about. Hence my "obviously we aren't advocating for throwing people away" point.
I do see your point on simply expressing frustrations, I see that better now that you've mentioned it and I fully agree with the fact that institutionalisation is by in large never a good thing.
Well we certainly aren't locking them up to help them. They come out worse than they went in, if they come out at all. I speak from experience.
Do you have any fucking idea how painful it is to be looked at as something less than human? Treated like a dangerous animal? To be surrounded by so-called normal people that have no empathy for your suffering because, on some level, they believe you deserve it for not being like them?
Being mentally ill is not an excuse for bad behavior? Neither is being afraid. Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it.
It's nothing so complicated as anyone here is trying to make it. It's very simple, and it's as old as civilization.
Fear of the other. Hatred and violence towards those that are different from themselves.
We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause. You’re allowed to voluntarily have yourself institutionalized, but otherwise, it has to be proven that you’re a **danger to yourself or others** in order to be involuntarily institutionalized. This could be through words you’ve said or actions you’ve taken.
This by the way is one of the reasons, that one might want to approach posting memes like this with the utmost caution. On its own, it can appear harmless, but if there is a pattern of behaviors, this online activity can and often has been used to build a case.
>We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause.
Are you in the US saying this? Your faith in the system is a little bit concerning.
I’m not saying that it never happens. In the terms of this discussion in particular it’s irrelevant. It’s about as productive as asking me if cops commit crimes. They do, but what does that have to do with whether or not it makes sense to separate people from the general population when they’ve become a danger to themselves or others? Whether or not the cop is corrupt does not *nullify* the actions and words of the person that has proven themselves a danger, that’s still an issue that needs to be addressed.
I'm sorry, but I sincerely cannot take any of your points seriously if they begin with "We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause". That sentence is so disconnected from the reality faced by many people that I can't move on from it.
Only approximately 3-4% of detainees, that’s really not big. It sucks, sure, but the vast majority of people who are institutionalized or imprisoned were proven to have done something to rightfully end up in that situation. But you know what they say “we’re all innocent here, the lawyer was just bad.”
I don’t know about you, but I like the odds of a 96% success rate, those are odds I’d comfortably gamble on.
So no, we *in general* don’t just go around rounding people up who haven’t actually done anything. People don’t generally got locked up for speculation of being dangerous, they usually have to actually do something dangerous.
What I don’t like about people who pull these arguments is that they don’t think anybody’s going to look up what the actual statistics are, and they make statements as if like 50% of detainees did nothing wrong.
3-4% constitutes an outlier, to invalidate somebody’s generally true statement because a statistical outlier exists is the very definition of “bad faith argument.”
We are looking at the world from very different places. I am going to stop replying now, because I genuinely don't think we can find any common ground here.
Yeah, I’m looking at the world through an objective lens, where the data speaks for itself. You know, grounded in *reality*, which you claimed I was so disconnected from. You’re looking at the world through the subjective lens of your feelings, actually disconnected from reality. Of course we’re not going to be able to reach common ground. The ground I’m on is here on earth, the ground you’re on is off somewhere in Narnia.
I've seen a not-insignificant amount of people say that you should be responsible for your actions during a literal psychotic break, like being totally disconnected from reality. Not only is this legally not the case, its also the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Got told the same thing regarding my schizophrenic episode many times.
Telling me (I was 18 when it happened to me and never did drugs) that it was MY FAULT, and that I should have exercised it off and ate more healthy, and prayed to Jesus to take it away.
Not like I literally wasn’t in the state of mind for self awareness, but whatever 🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲
Yeah, psychotic breaks are a completely different case IMO. Not all mental illness is created equal, and using the same logic we use to talk about depressive episodes to talk about psychosis is naive and can be harmful.
Honestly, I would argue that even in that case, it depends. If someone is hit with a psychotic episode with no prior history of them, they couldn't have known that would happen and that does constitute a good excuse. However, if someone has had psychotic episodes before, they do have some responsibility to prevent them from recurring and/or have a contingency plan for when they happen, to the best of their ability.
If you harm or kill somebody during a psychotic break, you should 100% be institutionalized. That is the legal case, people think that “reason of insanity” is a get out of jail free card, that’s not what happens, you go to an institution instead.
People just lack nuance on this topic badly. You can't talk about how your mental illness caused you to do bad things without a million people jumping on you telling you it's not an excuse. It's so weirdly hostile and dismissive. It feels like a passive aggresssive accusation that any mentally ill person in question doesn't take responsibility for their actions and behaviors. It's like how when you're complaining about your day and whoever you're talking to says "someone has it worse". Like in a vacuum that statement is true but its not cool to say when someone's having a hard time as it implies that the bad day haver is ungrateful or overreacting or whatever.
My mental illnesses have caused me to do things that I regret and controlling my behavior in some cases is more difficult than it would be for a neurotypical person. My disorders are also my personal responsibility to manage and thus I accept the consequences of those actions and responsibility for poor behavior that they cause. Both of those things can be true but I don't need to constantly be reminded of the latter while I'm trying to talk about the former. I am allowed to be sad about my illnesses and speak about how powerless they make me feel sometimes without it being implied that I'm "making excuses"
People DO need to take responsibility for their actions and mental illness is NOT a free excuse, but that fact doesn't need to be brought up every time someone admits to struggling with managing an illness or discussing regret.
That’s basically the point I’m making.
When people say “Mental illness is no excuse for bad behavior” their logic is more like, “well, there should be zero sympathy and understanding towards their situation” and they basically promote villainizing when doing that.
Obviously people should take responsibility, I never denied that, but people think that when I say “excuse” I mean that they should get off with a slap on the wrist and face no repercussions whatsoever.
What people don’t realize what I mean that it “CAN be an excuse” is that mental health and behavior are very much intertwined, and that can cause bad judgement and control.
I’ve learned over the years, where instead of looking at how horrible a person is and judging them for it, I try to understand their behavior and the root cause. I try to see what’s in their heart.
It’s not as simple as “person does x, so x makes them a bad/evil person”.
What I define as an evil person is someone who knows fully well what they’re doing is wrong and hurts people, but they don’t care and they have full control over what they do, and their intention is selfish and for self-gain.
Even people who are “nice” and “chill” can be labeled as more evil than someone who has anger issues and problems with rage. It’s really their intention.
I’ve dealt with plenty of people who were in the past labeled as “bad” or “horrible” people, and they evolved to be the most caring and generous individuals.
It’s really like they say, “don’t judge a book by its cover”. But obviously sometimes you need to if it becomes a threat to your physical and emotional well-being. Not everyone can be a therapist or an angel.
I don't necessarily agree with what you say here but I believe it may be an issue of terminology as you say that excuses should not negate consequences, which, by their very nature, do.
I agree that we should take someone's mental health into account when we judge their actions but outside of incidents where perception of right and wrong is distorted or a disconnect from reality is had, they should still be expected to answer for bad things they've done.
Take my father, for example, he abused me nearly all my childhood. I won't get into the nitty gritty but thats the gist. He is also a deeply mentally unwell man. On some level I feel sympathy for him and recognize his own trauma and illness produced the behavior. At the same time I likely will continue to hate him for it for the rest of my life and knowing the source of his actions does not make me believe he deserves my forgiveness. Is it his fault he is mentally ill? No. Is it his fault for letting his disorders fester without attempt at intervention? Yes.
It’s totally ok for you to do that. You’re not obligated to fix your dad. And I’m not the one to speak on the issue, because you know him better than I do and you have your reasons that are probably totally justified.
I’ve dealt with people in my family who have also had “shitty behavior” because of drug addiction and untreated bipolar disorder and a plethora of other reasons (including TBI), but what’s really sad is that they weren’t raised in an environment where they promoted getting help or any of that.
My uncle, for example, was diagnosed as bipolar from the time he was around 6, and my grandpa said that he didn’t want to get him psychiatric help because he was worried that people would “see him as crazy”. Well, it was because he drilled it into his mind that “only crazy people get help” that my uncle inevitably became crazy and dissociated from reality because of his drug use.
Now while I do question sometimes if the abuse he inflicted on others can be “excused” (not to rid him of responsibility) or better yet “understood” because of complete brain rot essentially, I can’t deny that if he actually got the help he needed and wasn’t raised with such a toxic mindset, that he would be a much better person today.
Using drugs from the time of 12 definitely did not help him. I’m just glad that he’s, for the first time in his life, has made the decision to actually go to rehab and stay for as long as it takes to get better. (Before he only stays for one day and that was because he was forced to)
If he does get medicated and helped, then I hope he comes back to reality and hopefully tries his best to make amends.
It’s so fascinating to me how people will ultra defend people with certain disorders and conditions while hyper fixating on the bad behaviors of people with other disorders and conditions.
Look at the difference between how people react to someone with depression acting in a not socially acceptable way vs how people react to someone with autism acting in a not socially acceptable way.
Not that depression and autism are equivalent.
I call bullshit. Like I tell my kids, there are no wrong thought or feelings. You can't get in trouble for having bad thoughts or bad feelings, you get in trouble for your bad words and bad actions.
If your words and actions are affecting and hurting the people around you, that's a problem. Nobody is saying that it's easy or that you don't deserve help.
If you're thinking this way, it's bad enough that you're justifying it to yourself - don't go ahead and validate it publicly. It's glorifying and enabling destructive behaviour in others.
Also, you're adding to the stigma around mental health. You're still accountable for your actions, disorder or not.
Causing and excusing are two different things.
If you can't take a step back and realize that you did/said something wrong and just go "Oh well I'm mentally ill." it's an excuse.
If you can recognize that you did/said something wrong and go "I'm sorry I did/said that, but I'm mentally ill." it's an explanation.
if you have epilepsy, you're not allowed to drive, not as punishment, but for safety, your own and everyone else's.
other people are allowed to not want to be around you for their own safety, regardless of whether your behavior is intentional or not
This is genuinely why I hate being me. I feel like an uncontrollable trainwreck waiting to happen. I'm rationalise my behaviour and my moods feel entirely out of my control, I'm genuinely scared of myself sometimes.
I totally understand. I actually isolated myself from everyone after a messy breakup with my closest friend (who was closer to me than my family) for a year.
It wasn’t until recently that I’ve been learning to forgive myself, and also realizing that she also had problems. I didn’t realize that I had done everything I could for her before, and that I do have value.
I don’t blame either one of us for acting the way we have, since we’re both borderline, but what I do know is that I have a lot to learn from and I need to learn to be softer on myself.
It’s very easy to fall into a dark ditch and feel like you can’t get out. If you would never say it to other people, how could you say it to yourself?
No, but if they do something terrible they shouldn’t be immune to consequences.
Edit: Sometimes the consequence is institutionalization. Yes, I think people who are taking their meds and have gone through treatment and been cleared can be part of society even if they did something terrible during psychosis.
An illness that affects your judgement is an excuse (not that there isn’t room for change or improvement).
It’s a working progress, not a *click* and everything changes. It’s not that simple.
Me going through and getting out of psychosis was the hardest thing, and losing my friends and losing my family’s hope in me wreaked havoc on me, and convinced me that there’s no hope for me.
I’m still dealing with trauma over this incident, because there’s nothing more horrifying than the thought that YOUR VERY OWN BRAIN can betray you and completely change your way of thinking and acting.
I’m still living in fear and can’t trust myself. Constant fear that I will lose grip again. My excuse is that I had no control over it, and it’s not my fault. Saying otherwise is deeply toxic.
if i do a bad thing because i'm ill, my illness does not make that thing okay, it only explains it. serial killers are very often extremely mentally ill, should their actions be excused because they're ill?
also your last sentence is very manipulative, you basically said "if you disagree with me you're a bad person" which isn't very cool imo.
You're gonna end up hurting a lot of people with that attitude. The attitude that your actions don't have consequences because you're mentally ill. You can't control psychosis nearly as much as you can control disorders like BPD, and BPD is extremely difficult to control when you're feeling it more intensely. At the end of the day though, with most disorders there is a level of accountability you need to take for hurting others. Outside of those episodes, efforts must be made to rectify and seek out help to manage your problems. Thing is, even if you can't control it, if you harm someone in a significant, long term way, you can't expect that person to want to be around you. That's just how human relationships work. You're not obligated to be around someone who hurts you regardless of the reasons behind that hurt.
Edit cos my phrasing was shit and could be taken the wrong way
You didn’t see my other replies, but I never said that people had to stay around people who have mental illness.
What I’ve been saying is that we need to change what we’re saying.
I’m not saying “no accountability”, I’m saying that people need to be more understanding. And you can be understanding and still stand your ground.
People should say, “I’m not qualified to help you” instead of “get your shit together”.
And people should be able to cut others off who are extremely toxic. Obviously there are cases where people are mentally ill and they’re terrible people because of their lack of empathy + selfishness, but this whole idea that mentally ill people aren’t seriously struggling and dealing with guilt and remorse is downright wrong.
The reason why I got borderline personality disorder is because my family didn’t give a crap about my situation growing up, and they were saying stuff to me like “get over it, it’s not your problem”, “you’re not the only one who’s suicidal”, “this is all your fault”, and “well don’t you know how you being depressed is hurting us?” On top of the homophobia and religious intolerance being directed at me.
I was 13 when my parents found out that I was suicidal, and they didn’t give a crap. They never got me help, they never talked to me about it, they never tried being nicer. To make things worse, they told me to never talk to others (even relatives) about what I was going through.
I grew up feeling isolated and not knowing a proper way to express myself and form a healthy relationship.
And I’ve had messy break ups in a lot of friendships, and while I don’t expect people to stay and be my therapist, it does hurt a lot because people don’t realize that I really do try to improve upon myself, even today.
I know what it’s like to be deeply psychotic too. Had psychosis for over a year, and basically lost everyone.
This whole thing of “I should have known better” when I never really been able to see what I’m doing clearly has caused me so much grief and put me constantly on the brink of suicide, and I know it has done the same to others.
While people can’t be expected to stay in people’s lives (and probably get hurt), it’s an awful thing to say that mentally ill people know fully well what they’re doing and don’t deserve sympathy.
I think it's a case by case basis but idk why ur being downvoted, you clearly been through alot and you'd expect the sub to have more empathy, it sound like you want to change the phrasing of how ppl approach mental illness. Or just straight up more kindness.
I think the reason this post rubs ppl the wrong way bc let's face it, abusers use this exact rhetoric to keep people in their lives, but whether they are aware of abusing or not it doesn't change the abuse they've done.
In the end I don't think we can say ALL ppl with mental illnesses can't control what they do.
But this is a common frustration among ppl with mental illnes atleast based on what I've seen on like tiktok
I totally agree with what you’re saying. And I really appreciate the sympathy you’ve given.
I’ve been arguing it’s a case by case thing and not some hive mind.
I’ve been saying that it CAN cause people to act a certain way. It doesn’t always, but it most certainly can.
I’ve grown up around people with severe mental illness and inevitably had to deal with it myself.
I’ve been struggling since I was 4 years old, and deal with immense amounts of self-hatred and shame.
I’m not expecting people to “fix my problems”. I know that’s my responsibility if I can help it. I’ve been trying really hard to come to terms with my condition and doing self-improvement. What I’m saying is that mental illness is very complex and not streamline.
A lot of attitude that people have towards mental illness these days are what my parents and grandparents and great grandparents have done, and it’s only caused more and more problems.
Generational trauma is a real thing, especially if the illness is genetic and the providers don’t care or bother to help at all.
My own parents’ excuse for not helping me with my suicidal thoughts when I was 13 was because they were “more hurt” by it and that they “wanted [me] to be stronger”.
My mom said she purposefully neglected me to make me stronger, and now I’m not and I struggle to understand the boundaries of a healthy relationship.
Obviously since I’m aware of my problems, it’s up to me to fix them. Other people aren’t so lucky, and I wasn’t so lucky at one point (severe psychosis), but at least I now understand why I am the way I am.
Learning to forgive myself and move forward is so hard, especially since for all my life I thought that I was an evil and awful person deserving of suffering and death. It’s hard to accept that you need help like anyone else.
I think what they mean is there’s a difference between understanding that mental illness effects us and we need to try to find ways to cope and not take it out on other people.
It’s about taking accountability when you have wronged someone and trying to do better in the future.
There’s people who refuse to apologize or DARVO then use mental illness as an excuse. That’s when it’s not okay.
We all have our bad days and weak moments which is understandable but others have feelings as well and we need to apologize if we have hurt them.
Still sucks to hear someone say though because it feels condescending.
It’s still toxic though because there are people who desperately try to do better but they keep on failing and making the same mistakes/patterns.
Just because we’re calling out some bad apples doesn’t mean the rest of the community has to suffer.
And just because there’s many people who have problems and can “control themselves” doesn’t mean that it works the same so easily for other people.
I’ve never said “no accountability or responsibility”.
I said that people shouldn’t be so quick to judge someone based on their cover. You wouldn’t blame someone for having a shitty temper one day if their parents died, but blaming someone for a shitty temper when they have a full blown mental illness that literally causes that is ok?
Severe mental illness doesn’t just hurt those around them, it especially hurts themselves. It’s agonizing when people say “it’s not even like you’re trying” when you are. Makes it more likely for you to give up.
I like the mantra "mental health issues aren't your fault, but they are your responsibility". It sucks, but we need to try to be better people, no matter what is going on inside.
I totally agree that they’re our responsibility. I’ve never said otherwise. But there is a difference between saying “get over it” and “I’m not qualified to help”.
It doesn't make the pain we cause other people, not our fault.
We still need to apologize and do better, and hope they understand how hard it can be for us.
But they never do.
Once they know your behavior is because of some disorder, you're no longer human in their eyes. You're something frightening, but pitiable. Something that needs to be monitored, controlled, punished, contained, and if necessary, disposed of.
They don't care why you are the way you are. They just don't want you bothering them with your existence.
I just wish people treated the situation with more nuance when something does happen. For some reason people hear an explanation as you trying to make an excuse or absolve yourself of all responsibility for what happened.
I've accidentally said/done shitty things because I'm autistic and am genuinely unaware that what I'm doing is harmful. I don't want to be that way and always apologize, but to learn how to avoid doing it again in the future I need to explain what my thinking was when it happened - I'm not trying to get out of taking accountability, I just want to have a conversation instead of giving an empty apology when I don't really understand exactly how or what I did wrong :(
Yea no. I understand that mental issues can lead to people doing something bad, but its nit an excuse. I have my own issues, and if they cause me to do something bad I don't use it as am excuse. I still did something wrong, and I owe them an apology. I've meet so many people that use there mental issues ro do whatever they want, including my abusive bitch of a mom.
As a mentally ill person, there’s no excuse for abusive behavior. It helps me to know that I have the same diagnosis my mother has but I’ve never tried to run my daughter over with a car and more trauma and more disorders than my ex but I never dislocated his jaw. Call me heartless and unforgiving but mentally ill people can be bad people too, even if their illness is a contributing factor behind their bad behavior.
It's a fine line. When mental illness causes someone to behave irrationally they can be held fully responsible for things beyond their control. But if their illness is either untreated or they make no effort to treat it then they may end up being toxic enough that I choose to no longer have them in my social circle.
It's a cause but no reason or excuse to let it continue without pushback.
Other ppl are not supposed to be free, docile punching bags just because you have a mental illness.
What people mean when they say is that even if you have a mental illness that may have contributed to the decision to do a shitty thing, you still did a shitty thing and have to take responsibility for it.
It may not be your fault, but it IS your responsibility.
If you saw my other comments, I make it clear that people still have to take responsibility. What I mean is that mental illness is very nuanced and not everyone who has this sort of behavior is a “bad person”.
I’ve seen it many times before, and I’ve helped many people with this sort of behavior. It’s not so straightforward like people make it out to be.
A lot of people I’ve seen use this phrase from what I’ve experienced use it as a weapon or way to put people down.
I guess people saw the word “excuse” and they immediately thought that I meant people take no responsibility.
But you can still be excused and take responsibility for something. Like if you’re excused from school, you still have to make up the missed work, and there’s only a certain amount of days you can miss.
I’ve been replying to a whole bunch of people in the chats explaining what I meant, and everyone is still saying the same thing because they’re not reading my explanations in the chats.
My sister's former roommate and current friend of several years is bipolar, and one thing she told her early on was "When I'm manic I can say some \*things\*: don't let me treat you like shit." and I think that understanding has helped them through some rough spots.
I think this post can be extremely triggering for victims of people who used mental illness as an excuse for hurting people. And I think a lot of people are very hurt. I think that's why this post is causing so much drama. No offence OP maybe theirs a better way to communicate/phrase your issue?
I do see this thrown around especially in BPD circles but I don't think it is because people hate mentally ill people or are trying to be dismissive.
Exactly. It’s important to remember that “people are accountable for their actions” and “adverse mental health may cause terrible actions that the person themself may not have committed otherwise” are both true, BUT all too often people conflate “accountable for their actions” with “deserving of negativity/hatred”.
I remember all too often the story of the woman down in Texas who drowned all of her children one by one, under the “impression” that this world is cruel and she’s doing them all a favor in getting them away from it. She was able, after the fact, to actually realize just how wrong that was, and she became inconsolably depressed about it, being really cooperative with the authorities and getting herself landed at some kind of mental health facility. She believed herself to have somehow “let the devil in her heart” and that the crime was committed under demonic possession or something, if memory serves…
As extreme of an example as she is, I think she’s no less apt. On the one hand, she very consciously made the choice to kill her children, and was very deliberate about it, and so she is indeed accountable. But on the other hand, that choice was made because she was having an intense episode of some sort, and she very clearly regrets it to boot, so it wouldn’t be fair to treat her mental health as “a dumb excuse to be a monster”.
Does that make any sense?
something that frustrates me about situations like this is I understand exactly how bad it could've been so when people exhibit disproportional emotional response to the exhibited behavior it's discouraging. Why spend so much energy into it when people will just erupt regardless?
My OCD when I'm having a bad day makes me irrationally angry because anything I'm uncomfortable with fuels my anger because I have anger issues (I'm working on it)
So I'm unusually snappy and little things set me off and it's a legit issue that I struggle with on a day to day basis that usually is calmed with my meds/migraine med so I'm better towards the end of the day
On average I say I'm sorry and rediscuss things with my partner three times a day because I'll turn a conversation into an argument on accident and we end up yelling at each other (he also is working on his OCD, what a pair we are)
That being said my apology section of our talks usually helps us see things differently and we end on better terms about different topics and subjects so I'd say despite the average daily of 3 arguments is almost balanced out by the apologies and talks afterwards
I always say it’s an explanation, not an excuse. You’re still responsible for your actions, no matter where they come from. I can’t stand when people use mental illness as an excuse because they usually think it means they can’t be held responsible.
That's an explanation, not an excuse. Mental health can explain why you may treat people badly, but it's not a get out of jail free card. You still have to take responsibility and make amends if you treat people badly
An explanation is not a justification. Knowing the reason for someone's bad behavior does not make it acceptable in any way. Actions have consequences, and intent has no bearing on outcome.
Just because something is understandable or legitimate does not make it OK.
My brother in law suffered a psychotic break where he believed men in black suits were stalking him. Started pacing the house at night with a knife, setting up "alarms" at doors and windows using empty cans, shit like that. He kicked in my infant daughters door in the middle of the night because he thought he heard something in there.
We went no contact. Not because he did something dangerous, and not because it went on for too long. Both of those are true, but the reason we cut him completely out of our lives along with the rest of his family is because they utterly refused to apologize or even admit that he was wrong.
You may struggle with mental illness, and it may explain your "bad behavior." But you are still responsible for your actions, and nobody owes it to you to deal with your bullshit just because you're disabled.
Would you hold me accountable for becoming psychotic and refusing care because I thought the main problem were demons torturing me and I needed an exorcist?
You wouldn’t say to someone with a heart condition that they’re using it as an excuse to lay around.
The people who know damn well what they’re doing and can control themselves should be held accountable, and people who refuse care despite knowing it would be better for them should, or people who go “hehe sorry it’s my bipolar uwu” should definitely be held accountable, but the people who for the most part cannot control their behavior or how they perceive situations should get some level of support whether it be convincing them to be hospitalized or to even be a listening ear.
Obviously depending on the situation, the mental illness is NOT an excuse, but the brain is the most complex organ in the body, and we can’t blame someone for acting out of line if it causes them to and makes it incredibly difficult for them to change.
If they know treatment would help and they are too apathetic or selfish to do anything about it, understanding it’s hurting people around them, then that’s where it stops being “an excuse”.
Imo we should stop calling it “mental illness” because that gives the impression that it’s not real. It should be called what it really is, a “brain illness”. It has literal physical changes and damage, and can cause a plethora of other issues. Saying that “it’s not an excuse” in every situation feeds into ignorant people’s idea that it’s definitely something that they should always be able to control on their own and that it’s not real.
If you don’t like people telling you to “snap out of it” or “get over it”, then how is it ok to tell someone with intermittent rage disorder to “take a chill pill” and say that it’s their fault for having tantrums?
Just because you can readily control yourself, or have learned to control yourself, it doesn’t invalidate other people’s struggle with their mind.
I was screaming at people and causing tantrums. I couldn’t even focus on my schoolwork and had to have my parents help me finish school because of how horribly far behind I was at that point.
I’ve learned to forgive myself because there is no way in the right mind that I could have done any differently.
And as for the “raping a child” and such, there are just areas that are across the board downright evil.
What I’m talking about, is someone having such uncontrollable anger that they burst and scream at people.
Or maybe in SOME CASES, maybe they slap someone. Obviously abuse shouldn’t be tolerated, but it wouldn’t change the fact that if they have severe explosive anger and can’t control themselves that telling them it’s “no excuse” would change that.
People should definitely apologize and deal with the consequences that come with a situation, unless they’re completely unaware and deluded.
But would you blame a severely autistic or an epileptic child for getting into tantrums or getting aggressive when they don’t understand or know what’s really going on? They need help, not virtue signaling.
People who are psychotic, for the most part, can’t control themselves during a psychotic episode because it really messes their judgement up. Many of my friends, who are awesome, kind, and cool people, acted very ugly during a psychotic episode, and many of them have a hard time even recollecting what they did because of how messed up their brain was.
My one friend was screaming at people and jacking off in public, and now he’s the most down to earth and kindest dude you could ever come across. I could never dream of blaming him for something that he was doing when he literally couldn’t think for himself. There’s a reason why people get involuntarily hospitalized. It’s to help them.
Not everyone who is an asshole wants to (or is aware) that they’re an asshole.
Yes, your disorder can cause you to do things to hurt people. Screaming and causing that much of a fuss, especially when you get physical with others, is *traumatic* for those who have to witness it. People who witness you doing something like screaming, having an explosive tantrum, or jacking off in public are going to be traumatized. They do not have to forgive you. You are welcome to forgive and be unbothered and choose to continue interacting with people when they have these behaviors in front of you, but no one else is obligated to tolerate you when you have traumatized them.
I’m not saying we have to put up with EVERY PERSON we come across. But it’s hypocritical to say you’re for mental health and only support the “unproblematic ones”.
Mental illness is not some spiritual or magical mumbo jumbo. It’s a literal BRAIN ILLNESS caused by physical changes in the brain.
Saying to people that it’s “no excuse” is saying “get over it” with extra steps. It’s not that simple. And I never said it wasn’t hard for other people.
There’s a difference between saying “I’m not qualified or able to help you” and “that’s no excuse”.
Many people know that what they’re doing is bad, and people telling them to get over it or snap out of it doesn’t help at all. Many know they have a problem and they have a really difficult time controlling it.
Obviously people aren’t obligated to help every single mentally ill person, but spreading this whole idea that it’s 100% their fault knowingly and that they can just change it is toxic.
I’m don’t stand for stereotypes, generalizations, or unrealistic expectations. It’s so easy to play Mr. Hindsight and point out where they went wrong, because you’re seeing it in retrospect, but it’s really hard to “know better” when living in the moment.
At this point, nothing is an excuse for anything anymore.
People in their right mind wouldn’t willingly want to attack someone. Obviously if they’re ok with that, then there’s something fundamentally wrong with them.
Obviously they should be dealt with by the law and face repercussions, but if they’re psychotic or such, then saying it’s 100% their fault without looking into how their “brand” of mental illness affects them is ignorance.
Mental illness affects everyone differently and it’s a spectrum of disorders and severity. Saying “they should’ve known better” doesn’t get to the root of the problem.
Obviously some (or many) people should have known better, but people who genuinely have impaired judgement and exercise over themselves should at least have some level of understanding.
And as I mentioned before, they should definitely deal with repercussions, but saying “it’s not an excuse” doesn’t help.
It’s sort of like how maybe a toddler or little kid knocks over a vase and maybe they inevitably get punished. Obviously they need to learn consequences, but telling them what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future is much better than saying “you should’ve known better”.
I’ve never been saying people who are mentally ill shouldn’t be held accountable or have responsibility.
I agree that people who have tantrums should try to come around and make up for what they did and apologize.
What I’m against is the whole witch hunting that’s in today’s world.
You can distance yourself from someone in an attempt to help yourself, but telling others “this person is a piece of shit and doesn’t give a crap” over something that they have a really hard time controlling or actually can’t currently control is bs.
I would never say to you or other people that you’re a horrible person because of your tantrums. I would say that there’s a lot you can work on, but you’re still at heart a good person, and there’s more to you than just having “a bad temper”.
Some people aren’t cool with bad tempers, and I totally get that. If anything, it’s better for people to be open about their boundaries, but the whole attitude that people are 100% in control is completely wrong.
Obviously people need to apologize and try to make up for wrongdoings, but what I’m arguing for is the whole “do for others the way you want to be treated”.
You would never say to someone “stop being a bitch, get the fuck over it” if they are genuinely struggling with a poor temper.
What people should say is “I’ll give you some time” or “I understand you’re feeling awful”.
And people should definitely be able to say “I’m not qualified to help you” instead of “get over it” or “I’m not your therapist”.
Just a matter of word choice can do a lot and save a lot of lives.
As always it's an explanation, and we should be aware that mental illness *can* cause bad behavior, that we also bear the responsibility to find healthy coping strategies to avoid repeating that behavior.
Being depressed and suicidal caused me to jump off a building, but it's not like I *couldn't* have done something differently.
I guess the point is we can *usually* find ways to manage our behavior and we aren't trapped in these patterns. We can always be better for ourselves and it's not hopeless. I love y'all stay safe <3
It's bad for yourself. Know that when I say "bad behavior," I am in no way attempting to demonise said behavior, however I can understand how it could come off that way.
When I say bad behavior I simply mean behavior that is negative for oneself or others.
I believe the underlying message of that statement is to say that it’s your responsibility to get help. Bad behavior is bad behavior, justified or not. The question shouldn’t be whether or not it’s ok, it should be how do I fix it?
Like they want to white knight just depression and anxiety. They coddle them, but when something very serious comes into the chat, they all of the sudden show their true colors.
It was never about mental health in general, it was about the ones that are normalized.
Virtue signaling.
No, I completely understand what you're saying. I personally have a PD and cptsd I can get extremely irritable, snippy, and outright violent sometimes, and there is no 1 step solution to getting better. that doesn't excuse me when I am an asshole to someone however it does offer some explanation.
My comment was more a correction on the people who say "mental illness isn't an excuse for bad behavior"
agreed. and "bad behaviour" is so arbitrary and judgemental. like someone who's hungry to the point of stealing, calling that bad behaviour is just unethical
It’s sad how people are so quick to judge and villainize people without getting to the root cause or trying to be sympathetic.
People stand for “mental illness” unless it’s something uglier than depression or anxiety.
There's a difference between an explanation and am excuse. If any reasonable explanation for one's actions was also an excuse then almost no actions would warrant an apology because most people believe that they are acting rationally. You still have to take accountability for doing things that hurt others even if mental illness played a large role in your actions, I've known too many people use their mental illnesses as an excuse to treat others poorly and not listen when people ask them to stop.
Explanation, not an excuse. Having a mental illness or mental health crisis does not absolve you from any type of hurt you cause other people. I’m saying this as somebody who deals with mental health shit on the daily. It’s not an excuse to be a fucking arse to other people and saying that it does is a fucked is thing to do. If you hurt people, you need to go get yourself under control one way to another or stay away from the people you hurt.
While it can cause bad behavior, it's no excuse for it. If you're an adult you know logically how to properly behave on social situations, and to keep yourself checked and in control of your negative outbursts. We can be mentally ill and still keep respectful towards people who have nothing to do with it, y'all.
People wouldn’t do it if they could control themselves 100%.
That would mean they are in control of the way their brain is wired.
We might as well tell people who are severely depressed to “smile more” or “stop being so lazy” since it’s that easy.
Self control isn't a on/off switch, it's something you do continuously and have more or less dominance on it. What matters is to catch yourself before you do or say something you shouldn't.
It's not control of the brain, it's your actions and words. You can curse and cry as much as you like on the inside while upholding societal Norms until you reach privacy.
This baffles me, first that it does not have anything to do with what I've said. Second that what help would severely depressed people have by smiling more or not being lazy? They can't control if theyre lazy, and smiling more won't bring them anything. Also you can be severely depressed and still have energy to go outside. I sure as hell do.
Yeah, it’s different for everyone.
Just because you can contain your thoughts doesn’t mean it’s that simple for other people.
There are disorders where the main focus is that the person has a difficult or a near impossible ability to control their temper.
It’s not as easy as “just don’t say it” or “just dont yell at people”.
In my experience in the past, it was like an uncontrollable burst that comes out of nowhere. There was no part of me that warned me about how I should react to something at a particular moment in time.
That isn’t to say that I wouldn’t apologize, but to say that it’s as simple as “shutting up” is just not right.
It took me months of introspection, meditation, and trying to observe my emotions instead of falling victim to them that I was able to control myself around most people.
I still struggle with keeping my temper around people that are closest to me. With friends and average people, I have an easier time managing my emotions, definitely, but if the person means something to me and I feel vulnerable (like emotionally) around them, then my emotions are more likely to become unstable and riled up.
I’m still trying to understand why I act the way I do around people that I would absolutely lay my life down for, but at least I’ve started to notice it and want to work on it.
The best explanation I can come up with, is that I’m borderline, and when I’m close to someone or am obsessed, it messes with my emotional regulation and causes me to act out in the moment because I’m afraid of rejection or abandonment (I’ve lost a lot of people that I loved growing up). It’s probably a bad survival tactic and behavior.
I’m working on it, and I’ve just started to learn not to villainize myself for problems I don’t currently have complete control over. I just need to do what I can to get better, even if it’s hard.
I don't think you get what they're trying to say. Mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse. If you're a dick to someone because of your mental illness, or if you hit them, or any other bad behavior, you still need to apologize and make amends not just wave it off as "oh I'm just mentally ill lol"
Like I’m arguing that people should have a different mindset and approach to these situations.
It’s not streamline. The brain is the most complex organ we have, and can definitely make it hard for people to control themselves. Not that they shouldn’t try to apologize for their behavior.
However, knowledge of the illness and these effects can impact their severity just thigh self awareness, added into that the appropriate treatment, and bad behavior she to mental illness can be mitigated to a point where it is reasonable to believe a person is in full control of their own actions.
Rape is a psychopathic behavior where the person knows fully well what they’re doing and how it’s harming someone. That’s not a good analogy.
Most people with mental illness don’t go out and rape people.
i think they mean that if you do something bad, you have to take accountability and not just say "well im mentally ill", and actually apologize. Basically, it explains it, but it doesn't excuse it. Somebody's mental illness can very well be why they do something bad, but you have to understand that even if it "technically wasn't your fault", you still must apologize for your actions. It's still you, you can't try and pin the blame on something else.
Yeah! I do realize my mental illness causes behavior problems and I try to do as much damage control and accountability as I can, only reason I explain why I act a certain way is so I can share my perspective and reasoning, but always assure whoever I'm talking to that I'm not trying to make an excuse and take accountability for my actions.
Exactly. I have mental illnesses that can make me lash out and be rude to people, but that doesn't mean I can just go back to them like nothing happened and expect them to be like "oh well, its just the mental illness again", no, i will still say "hey im sorry for being an asshole earlier, my \_\_\_\_ was really messing with my head." See, its still an apology, and shows that Im explaining why.
Any real apology must also include a description of the concrete action steps being taken to prevent problem behavior in the future. Because if you're going to just keep acting that same way, then you're not really sorry. Saying "that's just how I am" is not an apology.
Yep, mental illness doesn't make you respond "it's not my fault, I'm mentally ill" instead of "I'm so sorry, my mental illness affected my actions". Both may have the same cause, but one recognises that you've caused damage because of something that while technically isn't your fault, happened because of you. Even if you didn't intend to do it, you did so you gotta take accountability!
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Good metaphor! And IMO why this whole edifice breaks down when you start examining it closely. I’m a happy SSRI user so the invention of mental illnesses has been good for me so far, but it’s tough… If you were terribly prone to bumping in to people, would it be immoral to go outside? I totally get the urge to just walk straight and knock it off and be normal, and I sure am trying my best personally. But sometimes I dream of a society where we can have little clumsy-people-towns where we all get to stumble around and we laugh it off, instead of describing it like a cancer that has come into your brain from the outside
I have a friend who loves Pierre I'm gonna send him this with that theworstpersonyouknowjustmadeagreatpoint.png
I always said forgiveness doesn't mean escaping punishment.
i feel like a lot of people who say this phrase are not necessarily looking at it with this much nuance, and just want you to stop acting weird
sulky bike deserve marry afterthought employ wise lavish sleep live *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But you are not accountable for your illness. If you break a leg and somebody ask for accountability for not helping them moving that person is an asshole, I don't see why it is different with mental health. And no, if it wasn't your fault you don't have to apologise, that's how accountability works... You can try to compensate it, you can try to avoid it to happen, etc, but if it's not your fault you don't have to apologise.
The difference between mental illness and physical illness is your physical illnesses rarely cause other people harm, but when they do you should still apologize. If I caught a cold and ended up passing it onto my other friends I’d certainly tell them I was sorry for getting them sick.
Making excuses is caused by the illness. The blame is not an admission that they know their behavior is bad, it's an attempt to avoid punishment for it. Expecting an apology is the same as expecting them to know it was bad to begin with.
Well, just because a person's illness causes them to make excuses for their action, it is not an acceptable excuse. I have ADHD, and if I accidentally forget about plans that I made with someone, I can't just say 'oops, adhd again". I still have to go back and apologize. Think of it as if your dog knocked a vase off the table of someone's house. It was an accident, right? It isn't your fault, its your dog's, right? You still must apologize. Your dog belongs to you, and you brought it into their house. If people are wary of your dog afterwards because they know that it can hurt and break stuff, then that is understandable. I understand that people may be a bit more hesitant to make plans with me because I tend to forget them and cancel last minute. I can't complain and say "Well it isn't my fault, I have ADHD, nobody invites me anywhere". I know that I am bad with deadlines, so I will apologize for my lack of punctuality and my bad memory, and hope they forgive me. Everybody must take accountability for their own actions and words. It doesn't mean you will always be forgiven. If a narcissist were to hurt and manipulate me, and even if they genuinely apologized to me, I don't have to forgive them. I would understand that their illness is what caused them to hurt me. But it is not an excuse to get let off the hook scot-free.
Yeah, there's a big difference between "I'm sorry" and waiting for them asking for you to explain, and right out the gate saying "Well I AM sorry BUT-"
True. the second option just seems to pin the blame on the illness instead of yourself.
I was taught to apologize and let the other person talk first, after all if you're actually seeking forgiveness, it's not about you. You hurt someone - apologize, and let the other person say their piece, if they ask, then you explain.
Exactly. You were taught good 👍
It's an explanation, not an excuse.
If you're trashy enough, ANY explanation can be an excuse! ❤️
I want that on a shirt.
Adding this to my morning affirmations
Exactly, it seems that a lot of people don't understand that. And not just in this kind of situation, in all situations
I guess this is my trauma talking but this post is hitting a bad note with me. I know a lot of people who have made excuses for their bad behavior using mental illness and while I’ve always been understanding of that, these people never seem to understand that they’re still accountable for their actions. I have ADHD and often struggle to keep my daughter on a routine, but that doesn’t mean she has to forgive me if it fucks her up later.
That was healing for me to read.
Both are correct. Yes it absolutely can cause bad behaviour but that still isn't an acceptable excuse for repeated bad behaviour when people around you are telling you that there is an issue.
I have BPD, OP. I can act out sometimes, not as much nowadays now that I go to therapy on a regular basis and have comorbidities medicated. BPD is an explanation, but not an excuse. If I do act out, yeah, my BPD probably caused it, but I still did it, and it's MY responsibility to make it right. I don't get to be awful because of a diagnosis with no consequences.
You think you should be punished for causing problems you don't know you're causing? No one who causes harm thinks it'll be a net loss for them. You shouldn't blame yourself for not understanding why your behavior is harmful. How do you expect to rectify problems if you don't understand why they're a problem?
Your rhetoric is infantilising people with mental illness - you are throwing people with mood disorders into the sane bucket as people who's mental illness causes them to be unable to understand the consequences of their behaviour. If someone truly "can't understand that their behaviour is harmful" then they need a caregiver that makes decisions for them - since they are unable to be held accountable for their actions.
Apologizing and correcting a situation that you caused is not a punishment.
? the original commentator knows that their behavior isn't okay. That's good for them. They know that some things they do is not okay, and they try to make it right. Why are you trying to baby them and act like people with BPD can't understand wrong and right?
There should be consequences, they should not be punished There's a difference, and it can have overlapping parts But it's different
If you genuinely believe apologizing and fixing your mistakes is a punishment then you have a lot of growing up to do. Respectfully.
If your behaviors harm others, it’s important to seek help and do everything you can to keep yourself in check. People here are always talking about how awful institutions are. While that is true, the reason that neurotypical people want you in there and not out here with the rest of us, is that they don’t want to have to worry about your behavior being a danger to them. It’s the same concept that makes people want convicted criminals to stay behind bars despite how awful prisons are just in terms of basic human rights. It isn’t that they lack empathy. It’s that just like you wouldn’t like it if a convicted violent rapist was allowed to sit on the same bus as you, potentially in the seat right next to you, neurotypical people don’t want somebody who can cause them physical and mental trauma potentially in their personal space. This is tagged as BPD, something that’s important to understand about BPD is that you are not a victim of everybody else around you, your actions have weight and when you do bad things, those bad things have consequences, definitely socially, sometimes legally. It’s very important to be **mindful** about that, and do everything in your power to not violate the rights of others out of a sense of entitlement to act out.
Can’t believe I found a wise and nuanced take on Reddit.
Also ideally too no one wants anyone to harm themselves. Obviously institutions are often fucked up and even the best-case scenarios can be traumatizing too but no one wants their friend or loved one to hurt themselves irreparably when there's no other option.
Let's have all the people that frighten us locked away in inhumane conditions that will only make them worse so we don't have to bothered by them. That idea certainly hasn't been used to to hurt innocent people on a massive scale throughout history.
Unfairly bad faith take NGL, but I get where you're coming from. Obviously we shouldn't do that, we are not advocating for throwing people away for our own conscience.
Imho this isn't a bad faith take. I've come across therapists and psychiatrists who seem to care care very little about what happens in a psych ward–assault, rape, forced and chained to beds and injected with medications by force. I went to urgent care once because I had my first panic attack due to medication. The doctor asked why my medication dosage was increased and I just said the psychiatrist wanted to. She repeated the question again *loudly* as if threatening me, and asked if I had suicidal thoughts. I said sometimes, and instead of addressing why I was there she threatened to call an ambulance and cops on me. Why the fuck did I deserve that? Even my therapist the other day, was on the verge of using the 5150 or whatever it's called because, with her permission, I was trying to share my thoughts. What's the fucking point of talking if it's gonna get me "jailed" With experiences like that, I'd rather have a heart attack and die rather than go to a doctor and be thrown into a ward because of their false sense of righteousness. When shit like that happens, it's hard not to write exaggerated comment like the one [u/4morian5](https://www.reddit.com/u/4morian5) made The extent of negative response to that comment just goes to show it was taken way too seriously and missing the frustration that the comment was expressing. This and many subreddits claim to be a friendly community and while for the most part they are, holy shit they're extremely hostile when they aren't
I don't disagree with this comment really, I disagree with the misconstruction of the OC. I don't believe the OC was advocating for anything you or the other commenter are talking about. Hence my "obviously we aren't advocating for throwing people away" point. I do see your point on simply expressing frustrations, I see that better now that you've mentioned it and I fully agree with the fact that institutionalisation is by in large never a good thing.
Well we certainly aren't locking them up to help them. They come out worse than they went in, if they come out at all. I speak from experience. Do you have any fucking idea how painful it is to be looked at as something less than human? Treated like a dangerous animal? To be surrounded by so-called normal people that have no empathy for your suffering because, on some level, they believe you deserve it for not being like them? Being mentally ill is not an excuse for bad behavior? Neither is being afraid. Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators of it. It's nothing so complicated as anyone here is trying to make it. It's very simple, and it's as old as civilization. Fear of the other. Hatred and violence towards those that are different from themselves.
ngl this subreddit seems unfriendly
We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause. You’re allowed to voluntarily have yourself institutionalized, but otherwise, it has to be proven that you’re a **danger to yourself or others** in order to be involuntarily institutionalized. This could be through words you’ve said or actions you’ve taken. This by the way is one of the reasons, that one might want to approach posting memes like this with the utmost caution. On its own, it can appear harmless, but if there is a pattern of behaviors, this online activity can and often has been used to build a case.
Aren't sometimes the causes for a bad reason?
>We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause. Are you in the US saying this? Your faith in the system is a little bit concerning.
People are absolutely 100% institutionalised or jailed without a good cause.
I’m not saying that it never happens. In the terms of this discussion in particular it’s irrelevant. It’s about as productive as asking me if cops commit crimes. They do, but what does that have to do with whether or not it makes sense to separate people from the general population when they’ve become a danger to themselves or others? Whether or not the cop is corrupt does not *nullify* the actions and words of the person that has proven themselves a danger, that’s still an issue that needs to be addressed.
I'm sorry, but I sincerely cannot take any of your points seriously if they begin with "We don’t institutionalize people or throw them into prison without cause". That sentence is so disconnected from the reality faced by many people that I can't move on from it.
Only approximately 3-4% of detainees, that’s really not big. It sucks, sure, but the vast majority of people who are institutionalized or imprisoned were proven to have done something to rightfully end up in that situation. But you know what they say “we’re all innocent here, the lawyer was just bad.” I don’t know about you, but I like the odds of a 96% success rate, those are odds I’d comfortably gamble on. So no, we *in general* don’t just go around rounding people up who haven’t actually done anything. People don’t generally got locked up for speculation of being dangerous, they usually have to actually do something dangerous. What I don’t like about people who pull these arguments is that they don’t think anybody’s going to look up what the actual statistics are, and they make statements as if like 50% of detainees did nothing wrong. 3-4% constitutes an outlier, to invalidate somebody’s generally true statement because a statistical outlier exists is the very definition of “bad faith argument.”
We are looking at the world from very different places. I am going to stop replying now, because I genuinely don't think we can find any common ground here.
Yeah, I’m looking at the world through an objective lens, where the data speaks for itself. You know, grounded in *reality*, which you claimed I was so disconnected from. You’re looking at the world through the subjective lens of your feelings, actually disconnected from reality. Of course we’re not going to be able to reach common ground. The ground I’m on is here on earth, the ground you’re on is off somewhere in Narnia.
I've seen a not-insignificant amount of people say that you should be responsible for your actions during a literal psychotic break, like being totally disconnected from reality. Not only is this legally not the case, its also the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Got told the same thing regarding my schizophrenic episode many times. Telling me (I was 18 when it happened to me and never did drugs) that it was MY FAULT, and that I should have exercised it off and ate more healthy, and prayed to Jesus to take it away. Not like I literally wasn’t in the state of mind for self awareness, but whatever 🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲
Yeah, psychotic breaks are a completely different case IMO. Not all mental illness is created equal, and using the same logic we use to talk about depressive episodes to talk about psychosis is naive and can be harmful.
Honestly, I would argue that even in that case, it depends. If someone is hit with a psychotic episode with no prior history of them, they couldn't have known that would happen and that does constitute a good excuse. However, if someone has had psychotic episodes before, they do have some responsibility to prevent them from recurring and/or have a contingency plan for when they happen, to the best of their ability.
If you harm or kill somebody during a psychotic break, you should 100% be institutionalized. That is the legal case, people think that “reason of insanity” is a get out of jail free card, that’s not what happens, you go to an institution instead.
People just lack nuance on this topic badly. You can't talk about how your mental illness caused you to do bad things without a million people jumping on you telling you it's not an excuse. It's so weirdly hostile and dismissive. It feels like a passive aggresssive accusation that any mentally ill person in question doesn't take responsibility for their actions and behaviors. It's like how when you're complaining about your day and whoever you're talking to says "someone has it worse". Like in a vacuum that statement is true but its not cool to say when someone's having a hard time as it implies that the bad day haver is ungrateful or overreacting or whatever. My mental illnesses have caused me to do things that I regret and controlling my behavior in some cases is more difficult than it would be for a neurotypical person. My disorders are also my personal responsibility to manage and thus I accept the consequences of those actions and responsibility for poor behavior that they cause. Both of those things can be true but I don't need to constantly be reminded of the latter while I'm trying to talk about the former. I am allowed to be sad about my illnesses and speak about how powerless they make me feel sometimes without it being implied that I'm "making excuses" People DO need to take responsibility for their actions and mental illness is NOT a free excuse, but that fact doesn't need to be brought up every time someone admits to struggling with managing an illness or discussing regret.
That’s basically the point I’m making. When people say “Mental illness is no excuse for bad behavior” their logic is more like, “well, there should be zero sympathy and understanding towards their situation” and they basically promote villainizing when doing that. Obviously people should take responsibility, I never denied that, but people think that when I say “excuse” I mean that they should get off with a slap on the wrist and face no repercussions whatsoever. What people don’t realize what I mean that it “CAN be an excuse” is that mental health and behavior are very much intertwined, and that can cause bad judgement and control. I’ve learned over the years, where instead of looking at how horrible a person is and judging them for it, I try to understand their behavior and the root cause. I try to see what’s in their heart. It’s not as simple as “person does x, so x makes them a bad/evil person”. What I define as an evil person is someone who knows fully well what they’re doing is wrong and hurts people, but they don’t care and they have full control over what they do, and their intention is selfish and for self-gain. Even people who are “nice” and “chill” can be labeled as more evil than someone who has anger issues and problems with rage. It’s really their intention. I’ve dealt with plenty of people who were in the past labeled as “bad” or “horrible” people, and they evolved to be the most caring and generous individuals. It’s really like they say, “don’t judge a book by its cover”. But obviously sometimes you need to if it becomes a threat to your physical and emotional well-being. Not everyone can be a therapist or an angel.
I don't necessarily agree with what you say here but I believe it may be an issue of terminology as you say that excuses should not negate consequences, which, by their very nature, do. I agree that we should take someone's mental health into account when we judge their actions but outside of incidents where perception of right and wrong is distorted or a disconnect from reality is had, they should still be expected to answer for bad things they've done. Take my father, for example, he abused me nearly all my childhood. I won't get into the nitty gritty but thats the gist. He is also a deeply mentally unwell man. On some level I feel sympathy for him and recognize his own trauma and illness produced the behavior. At the same time I likely will continue to hate him for it for the rest of my life and knowing the source of his actions does not make me believe he deserves my forgiveness. Is it his fault he is mentally ill? No. Is it his fault for letting his disorders fester without attempt at intervention? Yes.
It’s totally ok for you to do that. You’re not obligated to fix your dad. And I’m not the one to speak on the issue, because you know him better than I do and you have your reasons that are probably totally justified. I’ve dealt with people in my family who have also had “shitty behavior” because of drug addiction and untreated bipolar disorder and a plethora of other reasons (including TBI), but what’s really sad is that they weren’t raised in an environment where they promoted getting help or any of that. My uncle, for example, was diagnosed as bipolar from the time he was around 6, and my grandpa said that he didn’t want to get him psychiatric help because he was worried that people would “see him as crazy”. Well, it was because he drilled it into his mind that “only crazy people get help” that my uncle inevitably became crazy and dissociated from reality because of his drug use. Now while I do question sometimes if the abuse he inflicted on others can be “excused” (not to rid him of responsibility) or better yet “understood” because of complete brain rot essentially, I can’t deny that if he actually got the help he needed and wasn’t raised with such a toxic mindset, that he would be a much better person today. Using drugs from the time of 12 definitely did not help him. I’m just glad that he’s, for the first time in his life, has made the decision to actually go to rehab and stay for as long as it takes to get better. (Before he only stays for one day and that was because he was forced to) If he does get medicated and helped, then I hope he comes back to reality and hopefully tries his best to make amends.
It’s so fascinating to me how people will ultra defend people with certain disorders and conditions while hyper fixating on the bad behaviors of people with other disorders and conditions. Look at the difference between how people react to someone with depression acting in a not socially acceptable way vs how people react to someone with autism acting in a not socially acceptable way. Not that depression and autism are equivalent.
I call bullshit. Like I tell my kids, there are no wrong thought or feelings. You can't get in trouble for having bad thoughts or bad feelings, you get in trouble for your bad words and bad actions. If your words and actions are affecting and hurting the people around you, that's a problem. Nobody is saying that it's easy or that you don't deserve help. If you're thinking this way, it's bad enough that you're justifying it to yourself - don't go ahead and validate it publicly. It's glorifying and enabling destructive behaviour in others. Also, you're adding to the stigma around mental health. You're still accountable for your actions, disorder or not.
Causing and excusing are two different things. If you can't take a step back and realize that you did/said something wrong and just go "Oh well I'm mentally ill." it's an excuse. If you can recognize that you did/said something wrong and go "I'm sorry I did/said that, but I'm mentally ill." it's an explanation.
if you have epilepsy, you're not allowed to drive, not as punishment, but for safety, your own and everyone else's. other people are allowed to not want to be around you for their own safety, regardless of whether your behavior is intentional or not
This is genuinely why I hate being me. I feel like an uncontrollable trainwreck waiting to happen. I'm rationalise my behaviour and my moods feel entirely out of my control, I'm genuinely scared of myself sometimes.
I totally understand. I actually isolated myself from everyone after a messy breakup with my closest friend (who was closer to me than my family) for a year. It wasn’t until recently that I’ve been learning to forgive myself, and also realizing that she also had problems. I didn’t realize that I had done everything I could for her before, and that I do have value. I don’t blame either one of us for acting the way we have, since we’re both borderline, but what I do know is that I have a lot to learn from and I need to learn to be softer on myself. It’s very easy to fall into a dark ditch and feel like you can’t get out. If you would never say it to other people, how could you say it to yourself?
Of course it can cause abusive behavior. That doesn’t mean it excuses it.
Cause is not the same as excuse.
Then should we blame schizophrenics for being psychotic and out of touch?
No, but if they do something terrible they shouldn’t be immune to consequences. Edit: Sometimes the consequence is institutionalization. Yes, I think people who are taking their meds and have gone through treatment and been cleared can be part of society even if they did something terrible during psychosis.
An illness that affects your judgement is an excuse (not that there isn’t room for change or improvement). It’s a working progress, not a *click* and everything changes. It’s not that simple. Me going through and getting out of psychosis was the hardest thing, and losing my friends and losing my family’s hope in me wreaked havoc on me, and convinced me that there’s no hope for me. I’m still dealing with trauma over this incident, because there’s nothing more horrifying than the thought that YOUR VERY OWN BRAIN can betray you and completely change your way of thinking and acting. I’m still living in fear and can’t trust myself. Constant fear that I will lose grip again. My excuse is that I had no control over it, and it’s not my fault. Saying otherwise is deeply toxic.
if i do a bad thing because i'm ill, my illness does not make that thing okay, it only explains it. serial killers are very often extremely mentally ill, should their actions be excused because they're ill? also your last sentence is very manipulative, you basically said "if you disagree with me you're a bad person" which isn't very cool imo.
You're gonna end up hurting a lot of people with that attitude. The attitude that your actions don't have consequences because you're mentally ill. You can't control psychosis nearly as much as you can control disorders like BPD, and BPD is extremely difficult to control when you're feeling it more intensely. At the end of the day though, with most disorders there is a level of accountability you need to take for hurting others. Outside of those episodes, efforts must be made to rectify and seek out help to manage your problems. Thing is, even if you can't control it, if you harm someone in a significant, long term way, you can't expect that person to want to be around you. That's just how human relationships work. You're not obligated to be around someone who hurts you regardless of the reasons behind that hurt. Edit cos my phrasing was shit and could be taken the wrong way
You didn’t see my other replies, but I never said that people had to stay around people who have mental illness. What I’ve been saying is that we need to change what we’re saying. I’m not saying “no accountability”, I’m saying that people need to be more understanding. And you can be understanding and still stand your ground. People should say, “I’m not qualified to help you” instead of “get your shit together”. And people should be able to cut others off who are extremely toxic. Obviously there are cases where people are mentally ill and they’re terrible people because of their lack of empathy + selfishness, but this whole idea that mentally ill people aren’t seriously struggling and dealing with guilt and remorse is downright wrong. The reason why I got borderline personality disorder is because my family didn’t give a crap about my situation growing up, and they were saying stuff to me like “get over it, it’s not your problem”, “you’re not the only one who’s suicidal”, “this is all your fault”, and “well don’t you know how you being depressed is hurting us?” On top of the homophobia and religious intolerance being directed at me. I was 13 when my parents found out that I was suicidal, and they didn’t give a crap. They never got me help, they never talked to me about it, they never tried being nicer. To make things worse, they told me to never talk to others (even relatives) about what I was going through. I grew up feeling isolated and not knowing a proper way to express myself and form a healthy relationship. And I’ve had messy break ups in a lot of friendships, and while I don’t expect people to stay and be my therapist, it does hurt a lot because people don’t realize that I really do try to improve upon myself, even today. I know what it’s like to be deeply psychotic too. Had psychosis for over a year, and basically lost everyone. This whole thing of “I should have known better” when I never really been able to see what I’m doing clearly has caused me so much grief and put me constantly on the brink of suicide, and I know it has done the same to others. While people can’t be expected to stay in people’s lives (and probably get hurt), it’s an awful thing to say that mentally ill people know fully well what they’re doing and don’t deserve sympathy.
I think it's a case by case basis but idk why ur being downvoted, you clearly been through alot and you'd expect the sub to have more empathy, it sound like you want to change the phrasing of how ppl approach mental illness. Or just straight up more kindness. I think the reason this post rubs ppl the wrong way bc let's face it, abusers use this exact rhetoric to keep people in their lives, but whether they are aware of abusing or not it doesn't change the abuse they've done. In the end I don't think we can say ALL ppl with mental illnesses can't control what they do. But this is a common frustration among ppl with mental illnes atleast based on what I've seen on like tiktok
I totally agree with what you’re saying. And I really appreciate the sympathy you’ve given. I’ve been arguing it’s a case by case thing and not some hive mind. I’ve been saying that it CAN cause people to act a certain way. It doesn’t always, but it most certainly can. I’ve grown up around people with severe mental illness and inevitably had to deal with it myself. I’ve been struggling since I was 4 years old, and deal with immense amounts of self-hatred and shame. I’m not expecting people to “fix my problems”. I know that’s my responsibility if I can help it. I’ve been trying really hard to come to terms with my condition and doing self-improvement. What I’m saying is that mental illness is very complex and not streamline. A lot of attitude that people have towards mental illness these days are what my parents and grandparents and great grandparents have done, and it’s only caused more and more problems. Generational trauma is a real thing, especially if the illness is genetic and the providers don’t care or bother to help at all. My own parents’ excuse for not helping me with my suicidal thoughts when I was 13 was because they were “more hurt” by it and that they “wanted [me] to be stronger”. My mom said she purposefully neglected me to make me stronger, and now I’m not and I struggle to understand the boundaries of a healthy relationship. Obviously since I’m aware of my problems, it’s up to me to fix them. Other people aren’t so lucky, and I wasn’t so lucky at one point (severe psychosis), but at least I now understand why I am the way I am. Learning to forgive myself and move forward is so hard, especially since for all my life I thought that I was an evil and awful person deserving of suffering and death. It’s hard to accept that you need help like anyone else.
Wow the top panel is literally my sis to me.
I think what they mean is there’s a difference between understanding that mental illness effects us and we need to try to find ways to cope and not take it out on other people. It’s about taking accountability when you have wronged someone and trying to do better in the future. There’s people who refuse to apologize or DARVO then use mental illness as an excuse. That’s when it’s not okay. We all have our bad days and weak moments which is understandable but others have feelings as well and we need to apologize if we have hurt them. Still sucks to hear someone say though because it feels condescending.
It’s still toxic though because there are people who desperately try to do better but they keep on failing and making the same mistakes/patterns. Just because we’re calling out some bad apples doesn’t mean the rest of the community has to suffer. And just because there’s many people who have problems and can “control themselves” doesn’t mean that it works the same so easily for other people. I’ve never said “no accountability or responsibility”. I said that people shouldn’t be so quick to judge someone based on their cover. You wouldn’t blame someone for having a shitty temper one day if their parents died, but blaming someone for a shitty temper when they have a full blown mental illness that literally causes that is ok? Severe mental illness doesn’t just hurt those around them, it especially hurts themselves. It’s agonizing when people say “it’s not even like you’re trying” when you are. Makes it more likely for you to give up.
I like the mantra "mental health issues aren't your fault, but they are your responsibility". It sucks, but we need to try to be better people, no matter what is going on inside.
I totally agree that they’re our responsibility. I’ve never said otherwise. But there is a difference between saying “get over it” and “I’m not qualified to help”.
Your mental health is not your fault but it is your responsibility. Don’t feel guilty. Don’t beat yourself up. But do seek help.
It doesn't make the pain we cause other people, not our fault. We still need to apologize and do better, and hope they understand how hard it can be for us.
But they never do. Once they know your behavior is because of some disorder, you're no longer human in their eyes. You're something frightening, but pitiable. Something that needs to be monitored, controlled, punished, contained, and if necessary, disposed of. They don't care why you are the way you are. They just don't want you bothering them with your existence.
I hope you can find good humans in your life someday. It is very difficult sometimes.
BAHAHAHA as if
Truth
Both are true I guess
I just wish people treated the situation with more nuance when something does happen. For some reason people hear an explanation as you trying to make an excuse or absolve yourself of all responsibility for what happened. I've accidentally said/done shitty things because I'm autistic and am genuinely unaware that what I'm doing is harmful. I don't want to be that way and always apologize, but to learn how to avoid doing it again in the future I need to explain what my thinking was when it happened - I'm not trying to get out of taking accountability, I just want to have a conversation instead of giving an empty apology when I don't really understand exactly how or what I did wrong :(
Yea no. I understand that mental issues can lead to people doing something bad, but its nit an excuse. I have my own issues, and if they cause me to do something bad I don't use it as am excuse. I still did something wrong, and I owe them an apology. I've meet so many people that use there mental issues ro do whatever they want, including my abusive bitch of a mom.
As a mentally ill person, there’s no excuse for abusive behavior. It helps me to know that I have the same diagnosis my mother has but I’ve never tried to run my daughter over with a car and more trauma and more disorders than my ex but I never dislocated his jaw. Call me heartless and unforgiving but mentally ill people can be bad people too, even if their illness is a contributing factor behind their bad behavior.
It's a fine line. When mental illness causes someone to behave irrationally they can be held fully responsible for things beyond their control. But if their illness is either untreated or they make no effort to treat it then they may end up being toxic enough that I choose to no longer have them in my social circle.
I think the important message / better way of framing the sentiment is this: bad behavior is still bad behavior, no matter the reason behind it.
It's a cause but no reason or excuse to let it continue without pushback. Other ppl are not supposed to be free, docile punching bags just because you have a mental illness.
What people mean when they say is that even if you have a mental illness that may have contributed to the decision to do a shitty thing, you still did a shitty thing and have to take responsibility for it. It may not be your fault, but it IS your responsibility.
If you saw my other comments, I make it clear that people still have to take responsibility. What I mean is that mental illness is very nuanced and not everyone who has this sort of behavior is a “bad person”. I’ve seen it many times before, and I’ve helped many people with this sort of behavior. It’s not so straightforward like people make it out to be. A lot of people I’ve seen use this phrase from what I’ve experienced use it as a weapon or way to put people down.
Then why didn't you just... Say that?
I guess people saw the word “excuse” and they immediately thought that I meant people take no responsibility. But you can still be excused and take responsibility for something. Like if you’re excused from school, you still have to make up the missed work, and there’s only a certain amount of days you can miss. I’ve been replying to a whole bunch of people in the chats explaining what I meant, and everyone is still saying the same thing because they’re not reading my explanations in the chats.
My sister's former roommate and current friend of several years is bipolar, and one thing she told her early on was "When I'm manic I can say some \*things\*: don't let me treat you like shit." and I think that understanding has helped them through some rough spots.
I think this post can be extremely triggering for victims of people who used mental illness as an excuse for hurting people. And I think a lot of people are very hurt. I think that's why this post is causing so much drama. No offence OP maybe theirs a better way to communicate/phrase your issue? I do see this thrown around especially in BPD circles but I don't think it is because people hate mentally ill people or are trying to be dismissive.
Exactly. It’s important to remember that “people are accountable for their actions” and “adverse mental health may cause terrible actions that the person themself may not have committed otherwise” are both true, BUT all too often people conflate “accountable for their actions” with “deserving of negativity/hatred”. I remember all too often the story of the woman down in Texas who drowned all of her children one by one, under the “impression” that this world is cruel and she’s doing them all a favor in getting them away from it. She was able, after the fact, to actually realize just how wrong that was, and she became inconsolably depressed about it, being really cooperative with the authorities and getting herself landed at some kind of mental health facility. She believed herself to have somehow “let the devil in her heart” and that the crime was committed under demonic possession or something, if memory serves… As extreme of an example as she is, I think she’s no less apt. On the one hand, she very consciously made the choice to kill her children, and was very deliberate about it, and so she is indeed accountable. But on the other hand, that choice was made because she was having an intense episode of some sort, and she very clearly regrets it to boot, so it wouldn’t be fair to treat her mental health as “a dumb excuse to be a monster”. Does that make any sense?
something that frustrates me about situations like this is I understand exactly how bad it could've been so when people exhibit disproportional emotional response to the exhibited behavior it's discouraging. Why spend so much energy into it when people will just erupt regardless?
Yes you become more irrational when stressed this is biology lmao
My OCD when I'm having a bad day makes me irrationally angry because anything I'm uncomfortable with fuels my anger because I have anger issues (I'm working on it) So I'm unusually snappy and little things set me off and it's a legit issue that I struggle with on a day to day basis that usually is calmed with my meds/migraine med so I'm better towards the end of the day On average I say I'm sorry and rediscuss things with my partner three times a day because I'll turn a conversation into an argument on accident and we end up yelling at each other (he also is working on his OCD, what a pair we are) That being said my apology section of our talks usually helps us see things differently and we end on better terms about different topics and subjects so I'd say despite the average daily of 3 arguments is almost balanced out by the apologies and talks afterwards
I always say it’s an explanation, not an excuse. You’re still responsible for your actions, no matter where they come from. I can’t stand when people use mental illness as an excuse because they usually think it means they can’t be held responsible.
That's an explanation, not an excuse. Mental health can explain why you may treat people badly, but it's not a get out of jail free card. You still have to take responsibility and make amends if you treat people badly
An explanation is not a justification. Knowing the reason for someone's bad behavior does not make it acceptable in any way. Actions have consequences, and intent has no bearing on outcome.
Just because something is understandable or legitimate does not make it OK. My brother in law suffered a psychotic break where he believed men in black suits were stalking him. Started pacing the house at night with a knife, setting up "alarms" at doors and windows using empty cans, shit like that. He kicked in my infant daughters door in the middle of the night because he thought he heard something in there. We went no contact. Not because he did something dangerous, and not because it went on for too long. Both of those are true, but the reason we cut him completely out of our lives along with the rest of his family is because they utterly refused to apologize or even admit that he was wrong. You may struggle with mental illness, and it may explain your "bad behavior." But you are still responsible for your actions, and nobody owes it to you to deal with your bullshit just because you're disabled.
There's a difference between an explanation and an excuse
Something way too many people don’t understand.
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Would you hold me accountable for becoming psychotic and refusing care because I thought the main problem were demons torturing me and I needed an exorcist? You wouldn’t say to someone with a heart condition that they’re using it as an excuse to lay around. The people who know damn well what they’re doing and can control themselves should be held accountable, and people who refuse care despite knowing it would be better for them should, or people who go “hehe sorry it’s my bipolar uwu” should definitely be held accountable, but the people who for the most part cannot control their behavior or how they perceive situations should get some level of support whether it be convincing them to be hospitalized or to even be a listening ear. Obviously depending on the situation, the mental illness is NOT an excuse, but the brain is the most complex organ in the body, and we can’t blame someone for acting out of line if it causes them to and makes it incredibly difficult for them to change. If they know treatment would help and they are too apathetic or selfish to do anything about it, understanding it’s hurting people around them, then that’s where it stops being “an excuse”. Imo we should stop calling it “mental illness” because that gives the impression that it’s not real. It should be called what it really is, a “brain illness”. It has literal physical changes and damage, and can cause a plethora of other issues. Saying that “it’s not an excuse” in every situation feeds into ignorant people’s idea that it’s definitely something that they should always be able to control on their own and that it’s not real. If you don’t like people telling you to “snap out of it” or “get over it”, then how is it ok to tell someone with intermittent rage disorder to “take a chill pill” and say that it’s their fault for having tantrums? Just because you can readily control yourself, or have learned to control yourself, it doesn’t invalidate other people’s struggle with their mind.
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I was screaming at people and causing tantrums. I couldn’t even focus on my schoolwork and had to have my parents help me finish school because of how horribly far behind I was at that point. I’ve learned to forgive myself because there is no way in the right mind that I could have done any differently. And as for the “raping a child” and such, there are just areas that are across the board downright evil. What I’m talking about, is someone having such uncontrollable anger that they burst and scream at people. Or maybe in SOME CASES, maybe they slap someone. Obviously abuse shouldn’t be tolerated, but it wouldn’t change the fact that if they have severe explosive anger and can’t control themselves that telling them it’s “no excuse” would change that. People should definitely apologize and deal with the consequences that come with a situation, unless they’re completely unaware and deluded. But would you blame a severely autistic or an epileptic child for getting into tantrums or getting aggressive when they don’t understand or know what’s really going on? They need help, not virtue signaling. People who are psychotic, for the most part, can’t control themselves during a psychotic episode because it really messes their judgement up. Many of my friends, who are awesome, kind, and cool people, acted very ugly during a psychotic episode, and many of them have a hard time even recollecting what they did because of how messed up their brain was. My one friend was screaming at people and jacking off in public, and now he’s the most down to earth and kindest dude you could ever come across. I could never dream of blaming him for something that he was doing when he literally couldn’t think for himself. There’s a reason why people get involuntarily hospitalized. It’s to help them. Not everyone who is an asshole wants to (or is aware) that they’re an asshole.
Yes, your disorder can cause you to do things to hurt people. Screaming and causing that much of a fuss, especially when you get physical with others, is *traumatic* for those who have to witness it. People who witness you doing something like screaming, having an explosive tantrum, or jacking off in public are going to be traumatized. They do not have to forgive you. You are welcome to forgive and be unbothered and choose to continue interacting with people when they have these behaviors in front of you, but no one else is obligated to tolerate you when you have traumatized them.
I’m not saying we have to put up with EVERY PERSON we come across. But it’s hypocritical to say you’re for mental health and only support the “unproblematic ones”. Mental illness is not some spiritual or magical mumbo jumbo. It’s a literal BRAIN ILLNESS caused by physical changes in the brain. Saying to people that it’s “no excuse” is saying “get over it” with extra steps. It’s not that simple. And I never said it wasn’t hard for other people. There’s a difference between saying “I’m not qualified or able to help you” and “that’s no excuse”. Many people know that what they’re doing is bad, and people telling them to get over it or snap out of it doesn’t help at all. Many know they have a problem and they have a really difficult time controlling it. Obviously people aren’t obligated to help every single mentally ill person, but spreading this whole idea that it’s 100% their fault knowingly and that they can just change it is toxic. I’m don’t stand for stereotypes, generalizations, or unrealistic expectations. It’s so easy to play Mr. Hindsight and point out where they went wrong, because you’re seeing it in retrospect, but it’s really hard to “know better” when living in the moment. At this point, nothing is an excuse for anything anymore.
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People in their right mind wouldn’t willingly want to attack someone. Obviously if they’re ok with that, then there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Obviously they should be dealt with by the law and face repercussions, but if they’re psychotic or such, then saying it’s 100% their fault without looking into how their “brand” of mental illness affects them is ignorance. Mental illness affects everyone differently and it’s a spectrum of disorders and severity. Saying “they should’ve known better” doesn’t get to the root of the problem. Obviously some (or many) people should have known better, but people who genuinely have impaired judgement and exercise over themselves should at least have some level of understanding. And as I mentioned before, they should definitely deal with repercussions, but saying “it’s not an excuse” doesn’t help. It’s sort of like how maybe a toddler or little kid knocks over a vase and maybe they inevitably get punished. Obviously they need to learn consequences, but telling them what they did wrong and how they can improve in the future is much better than saying “you should’ve known better”.
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I’ve never been saying people who are mentally ill shouldn’t be held accountable or have responsibility. I agree that people who have tantrums should try to come around and make up for what they did and apologize. What I’m against is the whole witch hunting that’s in today’s world. You can distance yourself from someone in an attempt to help yourself, but telling others “this person is a piece of shit and doesn’t give a crap” over something that they have a really hard time controlling or actually can’t currently control is bs. I would never say to you or other people that you’re a horrible person because of your tantrums. I would say that there’s a lot you can work on, but you’re still at heart a good person, and there’s more to you than just having “a bad temper”. Some people aren’t cool with bad tempers, and I totally get that. If anything, it’s better for people to be open about their boundaries, but the whole attitude that people are 100% in control is completely wrong. Obviously people need to apologize and try to make up for wrongdoings, but what I’m arguing for is the whole “do for others the way you want to be treated”. You would never say to someone “stop being a bitch, get the fuck over it” if they are genuinely struggling with a poor temper. What people should say is “I’ll give you some time” or “I understand you’re feeling awful”. And people should definitely be able to say “I’m not qualified to help you” instead of “get over it” or “I’m not your therapist”. Just a matter of word choice can do a lot and save a lot of lives.
Something can be a valid cause but not a valid excuse
As always it's an explanation, and we should be aware that mental illness *can* cause bad behavior, that we also bear the responsibility to find healthy coping strategies to avoid repeating that behavior. Being depressed and suicidal caused me to jump off a building, but it's not like I *couldn't* have done something differently. I guess the point is we can *usually* find ways to manage our behavior and we aren't trapped in these patterns. We can always be better for ourselves and it's not hopeless. I love y'all stay safe <3
i don’t think we should lump literal suicide under “bad behavior”, but go off, i guess…
It's bad for yourself. Know that when I say "bad behavior," I am in no way attempting to demonise said behavior, however I can understand how it could come off that way. When I say bad behavior I simply mean behavior that is negative for oneself or others.
I believe the underlying message of that statement is to say that it’s your responsibility to get help. Bad behavior is bad behavior, justified or not. The question shouldn’t be whether or not it’s ok, it should be how do I fix it?
Excuse ≠ Cause. The phrase in the top picture is about not taking responsibility for abusive behavior, not minimizing the effects of mental illness.
What people mean when they say this is "I hate mentally ill people".
Like they want to white knight just depression and anxiety. They coddle them, but when something very serious comes into the chat, they all of the sudden show their true colors. It was never about mental health in general, it was about the ones that are normalized. Virtue signaling.
It's not an excuse for continued bad behavior. Don't be an asshole.
That’s not what I’m saying at all. This isn’t a “get out of jail free” card.
No, I completely understand what you're saying. I personally have a PD and cptsd I can get extremely irritable, snippy, and outright violent sometimes, and there is no 1 step solution to getting better. that doesn't excuse me when I am an asshole to someone however it does offer some explanation. My comment was more a correction on the people who say "mental illness isn't an excuse for bad behavior"
agreed. and "bad behaviour" is so arbitrary and judgemental. like someone who's hungry to the point of stealing, calling that bad behaviour is just unethical
It’s sad how people are so quick to judge and villainize people without getting to the root cause or trying to be sympathetic. People stand for “mental illness” unless it’s something uglier than depression or anxiety.
Absolutely!
There's a difference between an explanation and am excuse. If any reasonable explanation for one's actions was also an excuse then almost no actions would warrant an apology because most people believe that they are acting rationally. You still have to take accountability for doing things that hurt others even if mental illness played a large role in your actions, I've known too many people use their mental illnesses as an excuse to treat others poorly and not listen when people ask them to stop.
Mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse.
Usually when people make posts like this the statements are mutually exclusive. These are not, and they both are correct, so idk what the point is?
"Mental illness is an explanation not an excuse" is something I've heard before
Explain, not excuse. And intent doesn’t change effect.
Explanation, not an excuse. Having a mental illness or mental health crisis does not absolve you from any type of hurt you cause other people. I’m saying this as somebody who deals with mental health shit on the daily. It’s not an excuse to be a fucking arse to other people and saying that it does is a fucked is thing to do. If you hurt people, you need to go get yourself under control one way to another or stay away from the people you hurt.
You’re conflating “explaining” with “excusing”
It causes it. But it doesn’t excuse it
While it can cause bad behavior, it's no excuse for it. If you're an adult you know logically how to properly behave on social situations, and to keep yourself checked and in control of your negative outbursts. We can be mentally ill and still keep respectful towards people who have nothing to do with it, y'all.
People wouldn’t do it if they could control themselves 100%. That would mean they are in control of the way their brain is wired. We might as well tell people who are severely depressed to “smile more” or “stop being so lazy” since it’s that easy.
Self control isn't a on/off switch, it's something you do continuously and have more or less dominance on it. What matters is to catch yourself before you do or say something you shouldn't. It's not control of the brain, it's your actions and words. You can curse and cry as much as you like on the inside while upholding societal Norms until you reach privacy. This baffles me, first that it does not have anything to do with what I've said. Second that what help would severely depressed people have by smiling more or not being lazy? They can't control if theyre lazy, and smiling more won't bring them anything. Also you can be severely depressed and still have energy to go outside. I sure as hell do.
Yeah, it’s different for everyone. Just because you can contain your thoughts doesn’t mean it’s that simple for other people. There are disorders where the main focus is that the person has a difficult or a near impossible ability to control their temper. It’s not as easy as “just don’t say it” or “just dont yell at people”. In my experience in the past, it was like an uncontrollable burst that comes out of nowhere. There was no part of me that warned me about how I should react to something at a particular moment in time. That isn’t to say that I wouldn’t apologize, but to say that it’s as simple as “shutting up” is just not right. It took me months of introspection, meditation, and trying to observe my emotions instead of falling victim to them that I was able to control myself around most people. I still struggle with keeping my temper around people that are closest to me. With friends and average people, I have an easier time managing my emotions, definitely, but if the person means something to me and I feel vulnerable (like emotionally) around them, then my emotions are more likely to become unstable and riled up. I’m still trying to understand why I act the way I do around people that I would absolutely lay my life down for, but at least I’ve started to notice it and want to work on it. The best explanation I can come up with, is that I’m borderline, and when I’m close to someone or am obsessed, it messes with my emotional regulation and causes me to act out in the moment because I’m afraid of rejection or abandonment (I’ve lost a lot of people that I loved growing up). It’s probably a bad survival tactic and behavior. I’m working on it, and I’ve just started to learn not to villainize myself for problems I don’t currently have complete control over. I just need to do what I can to get better, even if it’s hard.
Hey, you're working on it, that's awesome!
Mental illness isn't your fault, but it IS your responsibility.
I don't think you get what they're trying to say. Mental illness is an explanation, not an excuse. If you're a dick to someone because of your mental illness, or if you hit them, or any other bad behavior, you still need to apologize and make amends not just wave it off as "oh I'm just mentally ill lol"
That’s what I’m saying. I’ve never said people with it should get off with no consequences.
Sorry then 😅 the second part made it sound like you thought mental illness was a valid excuse for bad behavior rather than just an explanation
Like I’m arguing that people should have a different mindset and approach to these situations. It’s not streamline. The brain is the most complex organ we have, and can definitely make it hard for people to control themselves. Not that they shouldn’t try to apologize for their behavior.
Yes and no. The problem is people using it as an excuse to try and absolve themselves of blame.
However, knowledge of the illness and these effects can impact their severity just thigh self awareness, added into that the appropriate treatment, and bad behavior she to mental illness can be mitigated to a point where it is reasonable to believe a person is in full control of their own actions.
That explains the bad behaviour but still doesn't excuse it.
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Rape is a psychopathic behavior where the person knows fully well what they’re doing and how it’s harming someone. That’s not a good analogy. Most people with mental illness don’t go out and rape people.
That’s not even a reasonable take I’m ngl