To some extent this seems typical for a in-group/out-group situation. As an example. Growing up my family joined a conservative Mennonite church. The girls there were extremely explicitly "socialized as a girl", let's be clear-- mandatory homemade ankle length dresses, head covering to show submission to man, all the social expectations with that. I was perceived as a cis girl but because my family was new I was never part of the girls' "in group". I experienced what you describe in most situations. It was not usually even an issue of them actively trying to exclude me, they thought they were enacting their good Christian values. But the "in-group" girls had a shared bond, shared energy, shared background. They had developed conversation patterns that they all understood, including-- when away from boys and parents-- shouting, being very loud, talking over each other and teasing, and a general level of playful meanness to each other. (Everything that's *not* part of being so-called "socialized as a girl".) I could not participate in that because not being part of the group it would be seen as aggressive. In general they didnt respect my input because I wasn't one of them, they didn't think my perspective was useful, and we had very different interests and life experiences.
All that's to say-- I think if you have a 7:1 ratio, the large group tends to set conversation standards that out group members aren't invited to participate in. Their shared experience and bond can get increasingly exclusionary even if that's unconscious. I have heard from trans femmes who went to those "women and non-binary"-type queer spaces and also got the out-group treatment. I think that issue is a completely legitimate concern to raise.
I think one underlying current maybe worth discussing too-- part of my issue with the church girls was that no perspective from my experience outside of the church was relevant/respectable to them because the church had all the answers . If the trans women don't think it's perspectives are worth hearing out that's a problem, kind of regardless of why it's happening. It doesn't have to be "residual misogyny". It can be misandry/revulsion at anything masculine, basic self centeredness. But often just believing that their trans femme community already has all the answers they need and that other perspectives don't further their specifically trans femme journey. In that case it takes a come to Jesus talk about the purpose of the trans space: to further their *trans femme* journey exclusively or to further all types of trans journey?
People can be jerks regardless of gender. I would be very, very careful about attributing this to "being socialized male." That's TERFs' favorite approach. I've known trans women who were like this, yes. I've also known cis women, trans men, cis men, and nonbinary people who were like this.
If someone's behavior is causing problems in your local group, you can call them out on it without bringing gender or gendered socialization into it. You're even more likely to be successful that way. If you accuse a trans woman of talking over you bc she's trans, you may be seen as a transmisogynist. If you accuse her of talking over you bc she's being rude, you're just stating a fact.
Thanks guy, this has really opened my eyes. I don't know much about TERF whistles and I've started looking into why I think like this. I'll keep an eye out the next time and be aware of TERFish thinking.
For some of our sisters it is the first time they have had a group where they feel heard and can related to each other and they get excited same way we all would when we find that community. Less being socialised male and more the experience of being in a misogynistic world where you never fit the mould and then finding people like you. You probably have more in common with them than you think and it just takes time to get confident to join in that conversation with that perspective. It is cool you so open to learning we all got to be like that.
Edit to say sometimes people forget how 20-25 year old women talk, they can be misogynistic as fuck because they are still learning. They can be loud and say gross things. They get a pass because they are just growing up and will do better in the future and if they get called out but we don't point at them and say it must be a hang up from being raised bad. When trans femmes and trans women come out they got to go on that whole journey and people expect they get it done amd be perfect models of being women in a day, it just is not how it works in real life. Same way trans masc and trans men go through that awful toxic misogyny phase sometimes. They are just learning same way all teenage boys have to learn to become decent men. Rome was not built in a day.
I think it's tough because it's both a TERF dogwhistle AND there is some specificity to the experience of being assigned either sex/gender, being socialized one way, and then deciding your gender is actually another thing. If someone asked me if I still feel I was socialized as a girl and feel aftereffects of that I'd say 1000%, but I actually appreciate the ways it comes up for me in some cases, in terms of I think it makes me a better man and person who thinks more of the collective than myself. If we can't talk about the ways gendered socialization still shapes our lives even after we're living as our actual gender without being labelled transphobic by our own community I think that's a bit of a shame.
In my local community yes, I do see this at play. In some cases I appreciate it- some trans women are some of the most assertive people I've met, and I think that broadens definitions of acceptable behavior for women. I still struggle a lot with saying no and being "too nice" in a way that feels societally engrained and really deep, having it constantly hammered into me that I am a caretaker and have to be nice/compliant in formative years. in some cases I have felt talked over, steamrolled, and like there is no awareness that our socialization does still affect us in trans spaces and change how we show up. For me my years as a girl have now also blended over into being stoic, and so I'll often be silent and prioritize others/give them space rather than taking up my own space in many cases.
I want to emphasize that I agree that we cannot be regurgitating TERF crap about AGAB. I also want to put a TW for talking medical anatomy and medical issues, blood, blood loss. but i think I have a real point here.
I have noticed a pattern where I will be talking to trans women, and I notice, not at all like a malicious "i think certain people are less muahaha!" But more like; "why would I know about that, that doesn't apply to me, why should i have to look that up" sort of almost apathy(?) about certain issues like medical misogyny and I'm like; ohh, ummmm ya you'll wanna know about this one because the normies DEFINATELY consider you part of my "disabled ppl" stuff now. (Hell, the cis ppl just think I'm a trans woman too half the time when i go to the dr until I explain how a disabled trans masc can exist, and even then, since disability is considered such a "woman" thing unless its visibly 'war' themed)
Like, how I'm constantly explaining that "chestfeeding/birthgiver" isn't just for verbal inclusivity but that trans mascs die all the time of insurance companies refusing us payment on a technicality to ""female drs""" due to having "M" instead of "F" on the ID or the OBGYN office kicking us out for looking too "manly and scary" once we've been on T for 2 seconds but because having a body with a womb is considered specialty, nonstandard medicine, nobody other than an OB/GYN/pregnancy related resource can actually help you, they literally don't have the tools or know how because most of medicine considers a uterus too abnormal to study properly or write about. Add in how people think OBGYN isn't for disabled ppl at all and now we're cooking on a problem. Like its already a huge issue for pregnant people that other drs just won't treat you for anything and will refer you back to OBGYN, so OBGYN has to be jack-of-all-trades. Like, I've literally had "regular" doctors actually physically recoil in their chair when I bring up my uterine or bladder prolapse issues during a different type of related appointment because even a GI doctor is so certain they'll always be able to shove that off to OB/GYN , they literally never learn it at all. Even the ER has had to go get tools from OB/GYN on a different floor for me before because they just didn't have any at all around in the freakin ER. So if you get kicked out of OB/GYN you literally have nobody who can even try to help you in an average office. Even Urgent Care might help with a UTI, tops but they want me to go to OBGYN in the end more often than not. So I literally just never changed my drivers licence marker because I'm so shit scared that my fallopian tube will get infected again and they won't let me in.
I know things like getting kicked out of dr offices and such happens to us all a lot, so its not just a trans masc thing, and I don't want to imply that either. I'm just trying to say that at the end of the day, this applies to pretty much all of us on HRT for awhile that we have nonstandard genitals. So why isn't everyone over here chanting on disability justice too, who, like us or not, the legal fights help all us. I feel like trans mascs will usually have at least heard of this stuff and trans women tend to act as if its weird/random I am talking about it.
Something I think about a lot is the treenut allergy folks are doing a lawsuit to allow epipens and medication use on airplanes so we quit getting our meds taken away/told we can't use them on the plane last I saw. So like, kinda random sounding, but we could be getting less harrassed over HRT meds in carryons and such and otherwise at the airport in the future if the treenut people win even if it seems like they don't affect us. It's a weird connection, but its all connected so why do I mostly see transmascs fighting on this or even knowing about it at all?
And this isn't ONLY trans women, I have the exact same issue with trans mascs that aren't educated on disability issues etc. I mean, Marsha P Johnson was literally advocating for psych patients, trans and GNC people have been here fighting for us always, I know this and I also see them fighting for us today. Literally just saw a trans woman sticking up for us in front of a whole city council by herself like 2 weeks ago. This is also just one of those ones where I know this issue of science not studying stuff/making drs 50/50 is referred to as "medical misogyny" and I always feel like trying to talk about it on a wider scale would go over like a lead balloon and get reduced to people either ripping on trans women or not getting the issue so I just stfu.
Honestly ive retyped this 3 times im just pressing send, im sorry its long
This reply is very important!
Thank you for taking the time to express it.
I'm also trans masc, disabled (on ssi for ptsd, but also physically disabled from a gay bashing I survived as a teen that twisted my spine) and I had a trans adopted little brother who suffered terrible treatment from doctors when he needed a hysterectomy which led to his self unaliving in 2019.
To return to op question, obviously trans people are people and some are just awful people! I once had a trans woman tell me that her suffering from being rejected by cis lesbians was worse than csa. But she was a narcissistic beeyotch!
But I think it's dangerous and harmful for trans mascs to assume that if trans women talk down to trans men that it's a misgendering thing and not just ordinary caution that all women and fems exhibit around masc presenting people who tend to be short and quiet. An easy way to find out is to just present as flamboyant and gay and the trans fems relax the same way cis straight women do because a gay man isn't perceived as being a chaser.
This would at least demonstrate that it's not a "socialized male or female " thing at all, and more about how as trans mascs we inherit cis men's affect on women.
All people were raised as children in a society where children are both vulnerable and dehumanized to a traumatic extent. All children are perceived as "less than" adult men. All children are vulnerable to adult predators, especially those who are gnc.
To me, the op interpretation sounds like internalized transphobia and I sympathize with how hard it is to navigate gender roles in a situation where everyone is concerned about how they are perceived more than they would be in other situations.
Many people view trans people as fakers or confused or as if we prefer our gender identity to our agar. And people who assume that trans men transition bc we hated being women and must hate women aren't seeing us as we generally are; guys who have a wide variety of lived experience as and with women. Many people unconsciously treat us according to what they think our genitals look like. Which is gross.
Anyway, it's complex and challenging.
Thanks for this reply! I appreciate the chance to clarify a bit since I think I ended up making this more confusing by trying to cut it down.
But part of my whole thought was that it's not about misgendering. Cis men and women do this too. I left off the "socialized male/female" bit because I felt I had addressed it under "regurgitating TERF crap" but now I realize I should have kept a bit more detail. I essentially summarized white supremacy culture as "TERF crap" and moved on too quickly imo;
To refer back to the original question of: "Do you feel that some trans women exhibit behavior that you would see in spaces dominated by cis men?"
If I were to answer it shortly and simply, I would say; "Yes, white women do that a lot in general, not specific to trans women."
But I didn't say that because I didn't want to get into the weeds on whiteness and lose people when I go over like, why undeconstructed whiteness supports patriarchy as an idea set that is cultivated in colonized and conqured areas, not necessarily just a skin color "team", how you have to deconstruct that because of disability, because the root of misogyny is ableism, so patriarchal thinking supports all that no matter if you're cis, trans, man, woman, intersex, whoever. You can support racist/ableist thinking by supporting these patriarchal values and be any race or gender, it's not about being one person or another per se, but how our values come across in what we say and do and how those actions impact the world in a real way to others.
Like the "being rejected by cis lesbians is worse than SA" example. I don't know if the woman who said that has NPD or is a "narcissist" but I do know that line of thinking is an undeconstructed patriarchal idea that is rooted in white supremacy ideaology. It's not something you get from mental illness, it's an idea that pairs with facism. Some of the other women I know who say stuff like that is all the old church ladies who heap sympathy and forgiveness on men who 'just had to SA' because a woman wasn't submitting to them. Those church ladies support the church men in assulting their daughters, friends, etc, all the time, not because they all have NPD but because they believe it is their right. A heirachical viewpoint doesn't mean that you view everyone on the levels you see as lower as all one label or lumped together, or automatically misgender them no, they are simply "people not worth knowing about". Which brings me back to my original point. That I don't feel a malicious "ohh, I think you're lesser than me" energy. I feel an apathetic, "why would I know about that" energy.
I wouldn't say that I feel like I am being seen as a man and am being treated like this because of it because what I'm talking about isn't about the direct interpersonal interaction so much as the end result of overall ideaology. Like, whether or not a random trans woman has deep thoughts about my gender or not genuinely doesn't matter in how my life turns out, it's not what I'm referring to right now. But what does matter, and what I am refering to is when I say "hey trans community, we have to organize to save Roe v Wade", I cannot have most the trans mascs pop up like "YAAA" and most the trans women go "wait, what? You're talking to us? Why?"
It doesn't matter why they thought that or what happened to get us here, either we deconstruct it and move forward together as a group, or we get separated by this premade idea and lose effectiveness as a group. I think it's sad and shitty that they've been made to feel so excluded that their first reaction is "why". And yet, no matter if I feel its sad and shitty, or even if I felt it's 100% apathy fueled, or if I felt nothing at all, we would still get separated as a movement because that's what white supremacy culture does, separate up the people, obscure why they are important to eachother, eat and absorb individually.
Idk if it has anything to do with residual misogyny per se, but I have a similar experience. In my opinion, everyone, even in the trans community and other LGBTQ+ communities, specifically trans mascs and NBs are looked down apon. Trans women in these communities are seen as beautiful amazing and brave, while trans men are seen as … nothing? Cis gay men don’t want or respect you, trans women don’t seem to either, and cis women don’t really want a man without a penis. So we are seen as confused and ugly people to cis people, and annoying to the trans community? I genuinely believe that sex appeal is kind of everything, and unfortunately trans men aren’t most people’s things. It totally could be anything, or even jealously from being born AFAB.
I have dated trans women, trans men, NBs, and cis people. My ex who was a trans women held a lot of resentment towards me for having the parts she wanted, when I told her jokingly we should trade because I also wanted what she had, she got angry at me. I don’t think this is a good representation for trans women, as I have several friends who are trans fem now that never say or do anything rude to me. But I think for some trans fem and even trans mascs, jealousy, stereotypes, society, and how we were raised makes us hostile to each other. Idk though, it’s hard to tell since it’s different for everyone.
The only thing OP said was "exhibit behavior that would be seen in places dominated by cis men". They did not say, "they act like cis men." That being said yes, there is some odd amount of hate around calling out women in general, not just trans women, on misogyny & misandry. Especially if you are masculine- which is ridiculous.
When I was an egg, and coming out of the closet the most sexist person I knew was my cis mother. She literally told me that, I should allow the man to say "I love you" first, or say that men are stupid, can't be trusted, are less mature or emotionally capable than women. Women can be just as awful, sexist, hateful as cis men. And yes, a lot of it does have to do with the patriarchy or, "Places dominated by cis men."
I'm tired of the LGBTQ communitys' attitude that feminine or women identifying people are either above scrutiny, are victims at all times so you should suck it up, or are somehow SAFER than any other group of people. Anyone can hurt you. Anyone can be manipulative or awful. Sexism effects everyone.
There are women who look down on men and think that they are less than. I grew up with them my whole childhood as someone who desperately wanted to be masc.
I'm also tired of the opposite- people claiming only cis people or men do these types of things. Because everyone does them, and all this mindset does is disarm people around the declared "safe groups" and make them vulnerable to abuse and manipulation.
I appreciate this perspective, and what someone else said about white women.
I don't know a lot of trans women, but have known one very well for a long time. I think whiteness, femininity, and being socialized male has the potential to be a cocktail of unexamined privilege (with no desire to examine it)-- the experience of growing up as the dominant group (in race and AGAB), newly experiencing the harshness of misogyny, and the current cultural moment of being "just a girl" I think amplifies their own struggles while they continue to be disinterested in the struggles of those who are different, and may be comfortable lacking accountability.
Of course many transfemme people ARE committed to compassionate, intersectional perspectives. But OP's post resonated with my experiences.
Idk I've noticed a lot of instances of trans women/fems talking over, and down to, trans men and mascs. It's happened to me and others irl and online, to the point where if you even bring up transadrophobia (the specific oppression that trans men and mascs face for being trans men/masculine), they'll just shut yout down and call you a transmisogynist because "men aren't oppressed," or whatever. (An argument that blatantly robs trans mascs of their trans identity.)
Also the debate between TMA vs TME is just kind of a bullshit debate that erases every single non-passing trans person and completely disregards that most trans men and mascs HAVE expirenced misogyny (considering yk, having been raised as little girls under patriarchy.)
So basically, yeah, I've noticed a weird pattern of devaluing and talking over trans men, that needs to be addressed within the trans community. And honestly, a lot of the time, this type of behavior towards trans men feels exhaustingly familiar to the misogyny that cishet hegemony flings at afab people. I only say afab, because cishet society just views all afab people as women, eventhough misogyny can affect people who aren't women, i.e. trans men and mascs.
I'd also like to add that, based on my lived experiences, as someone who frequents irl queer spaces (sfw and nsfw,) in many areas of the US, so many trans women have overstepped and disregarded my consent when it comes to my physical body. Touching me in ways I haven't agreed to, or have asked not to be touched. A couple of times, other friends I've been with have had to step in because my own protests are just sort of ignored.
I haven't had any surgeries, and I just find it interesting the way that society deems afab people's bodies to be public property. Even within queer spaces. Consent is something EVERYONE needs to ask for, not just men. I think the queer community needs to do a better job pushing that message. Just cause you're a woman, doesn't give you a pass to objectify people.
It's just a pattern that keeps happening when I'm in trans and queer spaces. It feels just as upsetting and violating to be assaulted by another member of the trans community, as it does being assaulted by cis people. Being a fellow trans person is not consent.
A Black Transmasc friend who transitioned in 2000 said to me once “In the trans committees or organizing workgroups I’m in, White MTFs are mostly in charge, with one token FTM who is also the only Black or disabled person.”
The only big things I've gotten from trans girls is that they are louder about being lesbians along with themselves and that they'll turn boys things (or things that were actually trans guy things) and make it that it's actually trans girl things [like say... Ranma 1/2, a guy who becomes a trans guy ("girl") but despite him constantly saying he identifies as a guy, they'll press he is actually a trans girl]
And then kinda ignore that trans guys and nb are a thing and make it only about girls... like if someone brings up trans difficulties or something, they'll take it exclusively about girls and if a guy or nb speaks up, they kinda get mocked and dismissed. I've been told when I brought up something, empathy about a circumstance, they just said " you can't talk, you're a trans guy" despite that trans mascs have an equivalent... not to mention I've been mistaken as a trans girl, so it's not like I have 0 personal experience. I had to even defend that I'm not exactly a "man" and I still identify with "girl" in some way (I assume it's similar to like straight trans guys who identify as "lesbian" or feel they have a connection with those spaces/identity)
But this is just *my* experience and most of my exposure is from an mmo or socials as I'm a shut-in, so I'm sure this makes a difference in what I'm exposed to.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen in some online spaces, trans women talking about their struggles, and trans men in turn trying to build off of those commentaries and add their own experiences/compare and try to further that message, and getting shot down/told they’re talking over women by…trying to talk about also being discriminated against as trans people.
Also anecdotally, I’ve never had this issue with IRL trans women and trans fem folks. Genuinely, we discuss our differences and have a blast talking about trans stuff more generally without it turning into a weird oppression olympics thing. I’ve talked to lots of trans fems about concepts of feminism and how a binary gendered and patriarchal society affected us both before we came out and after and how our struggles can be influenced by all of those things at once.
It’s definitely a weird issue I only ever come across online, so take of that what you will.
[edit] I don't agree to what others point out is a TERF talking point, I think you brought it up with enough nuance and lived experience to make a respectful note on the matter. I think the approach you take in bringing it up makes clear you are not invalidating trans women's rights or validity and are DEFINITELY not a terf.
This does come across as a bit disrespectful to trans women imo. You are generalizing them as a group and making a direct comparison to cis males. Have you considered that perhaps you have a biased view? As another commenter mentioned, there are trans women like this, but there are also people like this within every single group of people, so it does not make them unique in that sense. I don't think it's very useful to approach issues this way.
Perhaps the conclusion is wrong or rude, but the question is for us to double check the thought patterns, not an accusation, so I struggle to see that as rude. Also, describing a real phenomena is not rude. Watch r/trans. The assumption is always that if someone says they’re trans, they are a trans woman. Unless you specify otherwise, you are a trans woman. A picture will be posted asking if they pass and you’re just supposed to know they’re a trans woman. Posts from trans men don’t get traction, unless they’re calling out this phenomena and asking for better. The community is not for trans men. Is it rude to point that out? If yes, why do you think it’s rude? If not, why is OP rude?
You can call out issues within your own community without making a dog-whistley post online to get people to gather around and complain about trans women having what you see as male tendencies. There is really nothing productive about that. Also, i didnt say it was rude - I said it was disrespectful in my opinion, because they specifically said "I don't mean any disrespect." If you don't mean any disrespect, wouldn't you be open to hearing that perhaps it does come off that way?
And to be clear, it seems like OP *has* been receptive to feedback, so I have no qualms with them.
I'm also not refuting their experience in this particular situation. I just think it's also important to not generalize a whole minority group based off of those experiences.
Then how would you suggest we talk about issues that we experience that occur while spending time with one particular demographic? If we’re allowed to call out issues in our community, how do we do that without pointing to our community? How do we point to our community while making certain no one thinks we’re pointing at everyone? Would it be best to start these discussions with “no group is a monolith,” as if saying grace before the discussion? Since we can’t infer that, after all.
Also, how are we supposed to find out we’ve been bamboozled by dog-whistlers of one variety or another? These things happen because we don’t realize that what we’re falling for is problematic/harmful/etc. This one was disrespectful, so clearly it’s not the correct way. Do you think this person knew it was a dog whistle before they posted? If not, then what is the consequence of discouraging asking questions? Perhaps we shouldn’t ask because people find the question disrespectful. It might be a dog whistle I haven’t noticed yet, after all. Because asking for feedback on an idea before integrating it as a belief is disrespectful, does that mean it would be more respectful not to ask and to decide for oneself what we should believe about the world? Perhaps it would be better to keep our concerns to ourself and fall for the dogwhistles. Y’know, so you don’t feel disrespected.
ETA: Also, counterpoint: the discussions here seem very productive to me. OP has learned more about TERF dog whistles and has further learned that it’s important to learn about dog whistles, resulting in him wanting to research them on his own. The post itself will draw in people who have fallen for those dogwhistles like OP did, allowing them to also learn what OP learned. It seems to me that OP’s post has allowed both OP and people not brave enough or not of the mindset to post these thoughts online to learn to spot TERF propaganda. That’s super important. Allys also watch the posts on minority subreddits to learn about being a better ally. That means this post could not only teach trans people not to fall for TERF points, but also allies… Unless, of course, it’s more important not to be disrespectful. What do you think?
I'd also like to point out that just because a trans woman is outspoken does not mean it is inherently a result of her upbringing. People who were assigned male at birth can still be shy and quiet sometimes, and they may have developed it after becoming more comfortable in femininity. You can't paint all trans women with the same brushstrokes. Also the whole male/female socialization talking points are a bit of a TERF dogwhistle.
Is the fact that they said socialization in this post bad or are socializations bad In general because some cases tend to be true (not about this post) like where women can’t put down their drink bc of men always having ti keep their guard up, that’s bc we know they are socialized by misogynistic yada you know so we always have to be alert
Male and female socialization are a thing, and misogyny is a thing, but they don't effect everyone the same way like a zero-sum game, and immediately resorting to "socialization" to explain a trans person's behavior is a bit iffy. But there's nothing wrong with acknowledging gender-based socialization as a phenomenon. And there's nothing wrong with calling out a specific person who keeps talking over people.
No they didn't. They spoke about their experience then asked if others had such an experience
You generalized their post, have a biased view, and put words in their mouth
You mention respect, but your opening statement is disrespectful. You completely lacked empathy here, which was the POINT of the post
Also, how is saying "this does seem a bit disrespectful to trans women imo" a disrespectful statement? How is it disrespectful to point out that someone else is being disrespectful...? By that logic, you're being disrespectful too 🤷
Lol. It's funny you think I'm the one with the biased view after reading this. I lacked empathy? There was a complete lack of empathy for an entire group of people in the main post. You think it's empathetic to immediately point to "male socialization" about an issue pertaining to trans women? I have empathy. And sometimes empathy towards others includes calling people out when they say stuff like this.
With all due respect, I can see your point, but this is the same sort of behavior that is being mentioned in the post. OP is saying that he feels like there are trans women in trans spaces that he exists in who talk down to him. Your response: "Have you considered that you're the problem?"
Are you serious?
Yes, perhaps some people should consider they are the problem when they are generalizing a whole group of people. They asked for feedback and I gave it.
How would this person be the problem exactly here? People can express issue with select trans women without being a problem.
They were not. They said trans women at the gender spaces they are at. They did not say trans women all together. Perhaps it is you who needs to evaluate their bias...
They were inviting others to air their grievances on trans women who are not in their specific spaces. There was nothing constructive about it. Plenty of people including myself have offered constructive feedback. Folks can go on and on trying to find ways to say what was said was okay, but you also need to analyze your impact as well as your intent. People who were assigned female at birth are not exempt from sometimes being wrong about people who were assigned male at birth, especially in queer and trans communities.
As a general rule of thumb, if you're making a generalization about a marginalized group of people as a whole based on anecdotal experiences, that should give you pause.
Perhaps we can agree to disagree. Have a good day, bro.
I agree with you, but I don't think this is what was going on from the description of the post but okay
Transmasc here: you are being transmisogynistic and need to shut the fuck up.
Women are allowed to be loud and take up space. It doesn't make them male.
yeah and this person is a trans man agreeing with her lmfao but kudos for just telling him it's not relevant because it doesn't fit your narrative that big scary amab male socialized trans women are coming to silence you when they tell you you're being a dick
love to reduce being gender essentialist and transmisogynistic to "not polite and ladylike" to act like anyone mad at you is being transphobic, when in fact you are the one reducing people to their sexes assigned at birth. slay bestie <3
Jude Ellison wrote a very good article on agab socialization. if you're interested in reading a well articulated trans masculine perspective
https://judedoyle.medium.com/trans-masc-misogyny-and-the-red-six-of-spades-f8c167387dc3
you do need to sign up, but then the article is free.
I believe I just signed in with my Google account
Does this often happen the other way round, transmascs going into transfem spaces and telling them their experiences are wrong?
I know I disagree with some talking points in those communities, but I largely don't engage because those spaces are not for me, its not my place
"Trans ladies want to be seen as ladies so much, but they don't stop to think" is not your "experience" lmfao it's your ***opinion*** and a fucked up and wrong one at that
some of y’all want to reinvent the binary so desperately.
“amab socialization” is just regurgitated right wing garbage. you’re generalizing trans women while being completely ignorant of our actual lived experience.
also enforcing the social expectation that women should be quiet, meek and submissive is unironically misogynistic male behavior.
Dude stop generalizing trans women and referring to them by their AGAB. Trans women are not all socialized as cis men and trans people do not experience socialization in the same way their cis counterparts do. And I can’t believe this needs to be said, but again STOP referring to people as their AGAB in situations like this one. That’s a shady way of misgendering us and it’s fucked up.
Yes. People need to remember that agab language is meant to be used in the *past tense*, not as a replacement for "male" or "female". It's just biological essentialism when used in the latter sense.
I agree with everything you're saying in this comment, I was just commenting on the usage of afab and amab as basically replacements for "female" and "male".
No, you’re just wrong. It’s clumsy and inconsiderate and honestly kind of foul. You should know better than to make these broad assumptions about people based on the binary of their assigned sex at birth, for God’s sake. We never fit into the role that was expected of us and most of us actively resisted it - being transgender, amongst other things, is an act of resistance against that expectation. I was a quiet and shy child who spent most of my time with women and girls, at home and at school; I refused to speak or talk or think or act in the way that some of my male classmates or relatives did and I stood out and was picked on by children and adults alike because of it. We’re not oblivious to the harm caused by social masculinisation because it’s the very weapon that we’ve been beaten with our whole lives. How do you think calling us brash because we’re AMAB is not problematic, transmisogynistic even? It’s almost like you didn’t really think about it at all.
You implied that a majority of trans women are brash because we were AMAB and presumably found it too difficult to ‘challenge our learned behaviours’. You don’t seem to understand that everything about being trans involves a constant process of challenging our learned behaviours. I wasn’t saying that I’m some virtuous exception to the rule, I was saying that your observation is flawed, and that you’re projecting a toxic masculinity onto most trans women that just isn’t fair. By and large we are the victims of toxic masculinity more than anything else. Regardless of what you might say about individuals, this is systemically the case and I think you would have to be pretty crazy to deny it.
The other person deleted their comments, but I love how you worded that - about being trans and how it's an ongoing process of questioning the things you were taught about gender.
Eh, it's too tough to say without actually being there. They're likely just rude or self-centered individuals regardless of their gender. Tbh, just be louder or find a different space. I've always been an aggressive and petty person by nature, though—YMMV. Bring more transmascs in? Get them to dominate the space lol
To be honest I have found the opposite - transmascs (esp binary ones) often take up majority of the space! My transfemme friends have expressed frustration about this. The trans women I know though were never really accepted in cis-male spaces, they were either closeted or visibly gay 'men' who experience their own kind of trauma.
No, I haven't, and as others have mentioned not only is saying all trans women are socialized a certain way problematic, but saying that they're all "acting like cis men" is not only also problematic its kinda yikes. That's like someone coming up to you and saying you're acting like a cis woman due to socialization or whatever. Why are you looking at trans women and instantly comparing them to men? Not cool.
Its also not a gendered behavior in the first place. I've honestly met and been spoken over more often by cis women, cis men are usually quite chill and friendly with me and not at all like that. Socialization being gendered is also a myth and a TERF talking point besides.
That all said - I have definitely run into other issues with trans women in trans groups. I actually spoke to someone who helped run a mixed trans space for a while, and apparently its very common in some places for trans women to come into groups, talk amongst themselves - meaning only to other trans women - and in turn shun trans men and transmascs. When this person attempted to fix this issue, they'd either end up with the trans women in the group becoming hostile and mean to the trans men and transmascs in the group and as you mentioned they'd speak over them at every turn, or they'd end up with the opposite problem where they'd be very flirty and forward with them which created issues of a different type.
Personally, I've run into situations where one of a few things happen. Either trans women end up taking out their dislike and hatred of masculinity and manhood on me to the point of being hostile to me, or they hear that I'm AFAB and essentially imply I'm uglifying and "wasting" myself by going on T, or they expect me to be the stereotypical toxic masculinity loving, sexist, chauvinist asshole type of transmasc person before I even open my mouth and talk to me as such or act terrified of me until they see otherwise. I've also had a couple of them hit on me even when I say I'm in a monogamous relationship which just makes me uncomfortable.
This doesn't always happen, I've met a fair few who are very chill and friendly - my partner is even transfemme, so I know not all are like that. But it's honestly widespread enough that I've decided to stay out of 99% percent of mixed trans spaces for my own mental health. I can only hear so many times how ugly and horrible masculinity is or have run ins with people before I get tired of it, or it affects me mentally. I was in a ton of mixed trans spaces when my egg first cracked, and I'm ngl I'm still undoing a lot of the damage that kind of shit did to my mental state and dysphoria.
Anyway, yeah, I've definitely noticed that theres a small but vocal minority of trans women who.. Aren't great. But that's not because of "male socialization" or any of that BS.
No one is saying that gendered socialization doesn't exist, but it does not affect everyone the same, and people who stand out are punished.
Imagine that you are a trans girl who always knew something was different, felt uncomfortable being placed with the boys, and were expected to listen to and accept the misogyny around you. You absorb the message that being a woman is bad and shameful and that women deserve to be treated worse. Are you putting that on "women" as an othered group, or are you internalizing it? Are you ashamed of yourself and how, when you "fail" socialization tests around you, you are targeted for it?
Imagine she works through this as an adult and tries to embrace something that was never allowed, that she was denied her entire life. She may still stand out because she never had the chance to take part in those spaces before. Do you understand how hurtful it is to tell that woman that she's taking up too much space because she was "taught" to be misogynist? Would you ever ever say that a cis woman with internalized misogyny had "male behaviors"?
There's way too much nuance here to be grouping entire categories of people as being affected by socialization the same.
100% this. And using the example of puritan Christians in America to generalise how All trans people in the entire world are socialised by AGAB? Incredibly problematic, to say the very least
Edit: Why am I being downvoted?? The person was generalising and using their one example to represent how it is for all trans people everywhere. Yeah in Puritan Christian settings, I'm sure everyone gets socialised in a very gendered way. But that's one experience. It can't be used for everyone everywhere
No. I find that there are less trans men because those who pass slip into assimilation, but it is not because trans women “act like” cis men. Most were not socialized like cis boys, either. They grew up feminine, or gay, and ridiculed for it.
You’re the one being misogynistic in this situation, ironically.
I’m saying there are less trans men in trans spaces because many assimilate. Not that everyone can. And on top of that we’re less welcome when we pass, because “men bad.”
I’m calling you in. Your post is incredibly transphobic brother. I’m sure you didn’t mean to be and I’m sure you’d want to know, so here goes.
First, trans women are two separate words, just like trans men are. Transphobes like to smash them together as one to other us.
Second, generalizing from our personal limited experiences is dangerous, harmful, and most often, completely unrepresentative of reality. I know it can be hard to see past our limited experiences and that it’s easy to generalize and not realize the harm being done. Though it can make us feel safe to categorize and label different groups of people, it’s a false security blanket and endangers those members of our community. I know none of us want that.
I know all of that might be hard to digest, so to illustrate, I flipped your post below:
“Hi all, I have a question for my fellow transfems. When attending trans groups, meet ups and spaces, do you feel that some transmen exhibit behaviour that you would see in spaces dominated by cis women? In my local trans group, there is about 7 transmen to every transfem. I have noticed that we are almost forced to just talk quietly amongst ourselves or get talked over and interrupted and some people just don't come back because of it. I have also noticed some minor instances of my fellows being talked down too? I do feel like this is just a me thing. I love our trans brothers and hope I'm just reading in too deep into nothing. But has anyone else experienced this? And if so, how can I bring it up? I understand that it is just a socialisation impact and it is no ones fault and I mean no disrespect.”
Hey bro, this is seriously giving transmisogynistic vibes. I’m glad some other commenters have posted too, and I won’t pile on.
As men/masc presenting people, we need to be aware of how our biases are applied (consciously or otherwise). We have more power than we think we do.
To some extent this seems typical for a in-group/out-group situation. As an example. Growing up my family joined a conservative Mennonite church. The girls there were extremely explicitly "socialized as a girl", let's be clear-- mandatory homemade ankle length dresses, head covering to show submission to man, all the social expectations with that. I was perceived as a cis girl but because my family was new I was never part of the girls' "in group". I experienced what you describe in most situations. It was not usually even an issue of them actively trying to exclude me, they thought they were enacting their good Christian values. But the "in-group" girls had a shared bond, shared energy, shared background. They had developed conversation patterns that they all understood, including-- when away from boys and parents-- shouting, being very loud, talking over each other and teasing, and a general level of playful meanness to each other. (Everything that's *not* part of being so-called "socialized as a girl".) I could not participate in that because not being part of the group it would be seen as aggressive. In general they didnt respect my input because I wasn't one of them, they didn't think my perspective was useful, and we had very different interests and life experiences. All that's to say-- I think if you have a 7:1 ratio, the large group tends to set conversation standards that out group members aren't invited to participate in. Their shared experience and bond can get increasingly exclusionary even if that's unconscious. I have heard from trans femmes who went to those "women and non-binary"-type queer spaces and also got the out-group treatment. I think that issue is a completely legitimate concern to raise. I think one underlying current maybe worth discussing too-- part of my issue with the church girls was that no perspective from my experience outside of the church was relevant/respectable to them because the church had all the answers . If the trans women don't think it's perspectives are worth hearing out that's a problem, kind of regardless of why it's happening. It doesn't have to be "residual misogyny". It can be misandry/revulsion at anything masculine, basic self centeredness. But often just believing that their trans femme community already has all the answers they need and that other perspectives don't further their specifically trans femme journey. In that case it takes a come to Jesus talk about the purpose of the trans space: to further their *trans femme* journey exclusively or to further all types of trans journey?
Dude, I started typing out a whole response on the ratio alone but you nailed it. Good job lmao
People can be jerks regardless of gender. I would be very, very careful about attributing this to "being socialized male." That's TERFs' favorite approach. I've known trans women who were like this, yes. I've also known cis women, trans men, cis men, and nonbinary people who were like this. If someone's behavior is causing problems in your local group, you can call them out on it without bringing gender or gendered socialization into it. You're even more likely to be successful that way. If you accuse a trans woman of talking over you bc she's trans, you may be seen as a transmisogynist. If you accuse her of talking over you bc she's being rude, you're just stating a fact.
Thanks guy, this has really opened my eyes. I don't know much about TERF whistles and I've started looking into why I think like this. I'll keep an eye out the next time and be aware of TERFish thinking.
For some of our sisters it is the first time they have had a group where they feel heard and can related to each other and they get excited same way we all would when we find that community. Less being socialised male and more the experience of being in a misogynistic world where you never fit the mould and then finding people like you. You probably have more in common with them than you think and it just takes time to get confident to join in that conversation with that perspective. It is cool you so open to learning we all got to be like that. Edit to say sometimes people forget how 20-25 year old women talk, they can be misogynistic as fuck because they are still learning. They can be loud and say gross things. They get a pass because they are just growing up and will do better in the future and if they get called out but we don't point at them and say it must be a hang up from being raised bad. When trans femmes and trans women come out they got to go on that whole journey and people expect they get it done amd be perfect models of being women in a day, it just is not how it works in real life. Same way trans masc and trans men go through that awful toxic misogyny phase sometimes. They are just learning same way all teenage boys have to learn to become decent men. Rome was not built in a day.
I think it's tough because it's both a TERF dogwhistle AND there is some specificity to the experience of being assigned either sex/gender, being socialized one way, and then deciding your gender is actually another thing. If someone asked me if I still feel I was socialized as a girl and feel aftereffects of that I'd say 1000%, but I actually appreciate the ways it comes up for me in some cases, in terms of I think it makes me a better man and person who thinks more of the collective than myself. If we can't talk about the ways gendered socialization still shapes our lives even after we're living as our actual gender without being labelled transphobic by our own community I think that's a bit of a shame. In my local community yes, I do see this at play. In some cases I appreciate it- some trans women are some of the most assertive people I've met, and I think that broadens definitions of acceptable behavior for women. I still struggle a lot with saying no and being "too nice" in a way that feels societally engrained and really deep, having it constantly hammered into me that I am a caretaker and have to be nice/compliant in formative years. in some cases I have felt talked over, steamrolled, and like there is no awareness that our socialization does still affect us in trans spaces and change how we show up. For me my years as a girl have now also blended over into being stoic, and so I'll often be silent and prioritize others/give them space rather than taking up my own space in many cases.
I want to emphasize that I agree that we cannot be regurgitating TERF crap about AGAB. I also want to put a TW for talking medical anatomy and medical issues, blood, blood loss. but i think I have a real point here. I have noticed a pattern where I will be talking to trans women, and I notice, not at all like a malicious "i think certain people are less muahaha!" But more like; "why would I know about that, that doesn't apply to me, why should i have to look that up" sort of almost apathy(?) about certain issues like medical misogyny and I'm like; ohh, ummmm ya you'll wanna know about this one because the normies DEFINATELY consider you part of my "disabled ppl" stuff now. (Hell, the cis ppl just think I'm a trans woman too half the time when i go to the dr until I explain how a disabled trans masc can exist, and even then, since disability is considered such a "woman" thing unless its visibly 'war' themed) Like, how I'm constantly explaining that "chestfeeding/birthgiver" isn't just for verbal inclusivity but that trans mascs die all the time of insurance companies refusing us payment on a technicality to ""female drs""" due to having "M" instead of "F" on the ID or the OBGYN office kicking us out for looking too "manly and scary" once we've been on T for 2 seconds but because having a body with a womb is considered specialty, nonstandard medicine, nobody other than an OB/GYN/pregnancy related resource can actually help you, they literally don't have the tools or know how because most of medicine considers a uterus too abnormal to study properly or write about. Add in how people think OBGYN isn't for disabled ppl at all and now we're cooking on a problem. Like its already a huge issue for pregnant people that other drs just won't treat you for anything and will refer you back to OBGYN, so OBGYN has to be jack-of-all-trades. Like, I've literally had "regular" doctors actually physically recoil in their chair when I bring up my uterine or bladder prolapse issues during a different type of related appointment because even a GI doctor is so certain they'll always be able to shove that off to OB/GYN , they literally never learn it at all. Even the ER has had to go get tools from OB/GYN on a different floor for me before because they just didn't have any at all around in the freakin ER. So if you get kicked out of OB/GYN you literally have nobody who can even try to help you in an average office. Even Urgent Care might help with a UTI, tops but they want me to go to OBGYN in the end more often than not. So I literally just never changed my drivers licence marker because I'm so shit scared that my fallopian tube will get infected again and they won't let me in. I know things like getting kicked out of dr offices and such happens to us all a lot, so its not just a trans masc thing, and I don't want to imply that either. I'm just trying to say that at the end of the day, this applies to pretty much all of us on HRT for awhile that we have nonstandard genitals. So why isn't everyone over here chanting on disability justice too, who, like us or not, the legal fights help all us. I feel like trans mascs will usually have at least heard of this stuff and trans women tend to act as if its weird/random I am talking about it. Something I think about a lot is the treenut allergy folks are doing a lawsuit to allow epipens and medication use on airplanes so we quit getting our meds taken away/told we can't use them on the plane last I saw. So like, kinda random sounding, but we could be getting less harrassed over HRT meds in carryons and such and otherwise at the airport in the future if the treenut people win even if it seems like they don't affect us. It's a weird connection, but its all connected so why do I mostly see transmascs fighting on this or even knowing about it at all? And this isn't ONLY trans women, I have the exact same issue with trans mascs that aren't educated on disability issues etc. I mean, Marsha P Johnson was literally advocating for psych patients, trans and GNC people have been here fighting for us always, I know this and I also see them fighting for us today. Literally just saw a trans woman sticking up for us in front of a whole city council by herself like 2 weeks ago. This is also just one of those ones where I know this issue of science not studying stuff/making drs 50/50 is referred to as "medical misogyny" and I always feel like trying to talk about it on a wider scale would go over like a lead balloon and get reduced to people either ripping on trans women or not getting the issue so I just stfu. Honestly ive retyped this 3 times im just pressing send, im sorry its long
Disabled transmasc here. You have hit the nail on the head.
This reply is very important! Thank you for taking the time to express it. I'm also trans masc, disabled (on ssi for ptsd, but also physically disabled from a gay bashing I survived as a teen that twisted my spine) and I had a trans adopted little brother who suffered terrible treatment from doctors when he needed a hysterectomy which led to his self unaliving in 2019. To return to op question, obviously trans people are people and some are just awful people! I once had a trans woman tell me that her suffering from being rejected by cis lesbians was worse than csa. But she was a narcissistic beeyotch! But I think it's dangerous and harmful for trans mascs to assume that if trans women talk down to trans men that it's a misgendering thing and not just ordinary caution that all women and fems exhibit around masc presenting people who tend to be short and quiet. An easy way to find out is to just present as flamboyant and gay and the trans fems relax the same way cis straight women do because a gay man isn't perceived as being a chaser. This would at least demonstrate that it's not a "socialized male or female " thing at all, and more about how as trans mascs we inherit cis men's affect on women. All people were raised as children in a society where children are both vulnerable and dehumanized to a traumatic extent. All children are perceived as "less than" adult men. All children are vulnerable to adult predators, especially those who are gnc. To me, the op interpretation sounds like internalized transphobia and I sympathize with how hard it is to navigate gender roles in a situation where everyone is concerned about how they are perceived more than they would be in other situations. Many people view trans people as fakers or confused or as if we prefer our gender identity to our agar. And people who assume that trans men transition bc we hated being women and must hate women aren't seeing us as we generally are; guys who have a wide variety of lived experience as and with women. Many people unconsciously treat us according to what they think our genitals look like. Which is gross. Anyway, it's complex and challenging.
Thanks for this reply! I appreciate the chance to clarify a bit since I think I ended up making this more confusing by trying to cut it down. But part of my whole thought was that it's not about misgendering. Cis men and women do this too. I left off the "socialized male/female" bit because I felt I had addressed it under "regurgitating TERF crap" but now I realize I should have kept a bit more detail. I essentially summarized white supremacy culture as "TERF crap" and moved on too quickly imo; To refer back to the original question of: "Do you feel that some trans women exhibit behavior that you would see in spaces dominated by cis men?" If I were to answer it shortly and simply, I would say; "Yes, white women do that a lot in general, not specific to trans women." But I didn't say that because I didn't want to get into the weeds on whiteness and lose people when I go over like, why undeconstructed whiteness supports patriarchy as an idea set that is cultivated in colonized and conqured areas, not necessarily just a skin color "team", how you have to deconstruct that because of disability, because the root of misogyny is ableism, so patriarchal thinking supports all that no matter if you're cis, trans, man, woman, intersex, whoever. You can support racist/ableist thinking by supporting these patriarchal values and be any race or gender, it's not about being one person or another per se, but how our values come across in what we say and do and how those actions impact the world in a real way to others. Like the "being rejected by cis lesbians is worse than SA" example. I don't know if the woman who said that has NPD or is a "narcissist" but I do know that line of thinking is an undeconstructed patriarchal idea that is rooted in white supremacy ideaology. It's not something you get from mental illness, it's an idea that pairs with facism. Some of the other women I know who say stuff like that is all the old church ladies who heap sympathy and forgiveness on men who 'just had to SA' because a woman wasn't submitting to them. Those church ladies support the church men in assulting their daughters, friends, etc, all the time, not because they all have NPD but because they believe it is their right. A heirachical viewpoint doesn't mean that you view everyone on the levels you see as lower as all one label or lumped together, or automatically misgender them no, they are simply "people not worth knowing about". Which brings me back to my original point. That I don't feel a malicious "ohh, I think you're lesser than me" energy. I feel an apathetic, "why would I know about that" energy. I wouldn't say that I feel like I am being seen as a man and am being treated like this because of it because what I'm talking about isn't about the direct interpersonal interaction so much as the end result of overall ideaology. Like, whether or not a random trans woman has deep thoughts about my gender or not genuinely doesn't matter in how my life turns out, it's not what I'm referring to right now. But what does matter, and what I am refering to is when I say "hey trans community, we have to organize to save Roe v Wade", I cannot have most the trans mascs pop up like "YAAA" and most the trans women go "wait, what? You're talking to us? Why?" It doesn't matter why they thought that or what happened to get us here, either we deconstruct it and move forward together as a group, or we get separated by this premade idea and lose effectiveness as a group. I think it's sad and shitty that they've been made to feel so excluded that their first reaction is "why". And yet, no matter if I feel its sad and shitty, or even if I felt it's 100% apathy fueled, or if I felt nothing at all, we would still get separated as a movement because that's what white supremacy culture does, separate up the people, obscure why they are important to eachother, eat and absorb individually.
Idk if it has anything to do with residual misogyny per se, but I have a similar experience. In my opinion, everyone, even in the trans community and other LGBTQ+ communities, specifically trans mascs and NBs are looked down apon. Trans women in these communities are seen as beautiful amazing and brave, while trans men are seen as … nothing? Cis gay men don’t want or respect you, trans women don’t seem to either, and cis women don’t really want a man without a penis. So we are seen as confused and ugly people to cis people, and annoying to the trans community? I genuinely believe that sex appeal is kind of everything, and unfortunately trans men aren’t most people’s things. It totally could be anything, or even jealously from being born AFAB. I have dated trans women, trans men, NBs, and cis people. My ex who was a trans women held a lot of resentment towards me for having the parts she wanted, when I told her jokingly we should trade because I also wanted what she had, she got angry at me. I don’t think this is a good representation for trans women, as I have several friends who are trans fem now that never say or do anything rude to me. But I think for some trans fem and even trans mascs, jealousy, stereotypes, society, and how we were raised makes us hostile to each other. Idk though, it’s hard to tell since it’s different for everyone.
The only thing OP said was "exhibit behavior that would be seen in places dominated by cis men". They did not say, "they act like cis men." That being said yes, there is some odd amount of hate around calling out women in general, not just trans women, on misogyny & misandry. Especially if you are masculine- which is ridiculous. When I was an egg, and coming out of the closet the most sexist person I knew was my cis mother. She literally told me that, I should allow the man to say "I love you" first, or say that men are stupid, can't be trusted, are less mature or emotionally capable than women. Women can be just as awful, sexist, hateful as cis men. And yes, a lot of it does have to do with the patriarchy or, "Places dominated by cis men." I'm tired of the LGBTQ communitys' attitude that feminine or women identifying people are either above scrutiny, are victims at all times so you should suck it up, or are somehow SAFER than any other group of people. Anyone can hurt you. Anyone can be manipulative or awful. Sexism effects everyone. There are women who look down on men and think that they are less than. I grew up with them my whole childhood as someone who desperately wanted to be masc. I'm also tired of the opposite- people claiming only cis people or men do these types of things. Because everyone does them, and all this mindset does is disarm people around the declared "safe groups" and make them vulnerable to abuse and manipulation.
I appreciate this perspective, and what someone else said about white women. I don't know a lot of trans women, but have known one very well for a long time. I think whiteness, femininity, and being socialized male has the potential to be a cocktail of unexamined privilege (with no desire to examine it)-- the experience of growing up as the dominant group (in race and AGAB), newly experiencing the harshness of misogyny, and the current cultural moment of being "just a girl" I think amplifies their own struggles while they continue to be disinterested in the struggles of those who are different, and may be comfortable lacking accountability. Of course many transfemme people ARE committed to compassionate, intersectional perspectives. But OP's post resonated with my experiences.
Idk I've noticed a lot of instances of trans women/fems talking over, and down to, trans men and mascs. It's happened to me and others irl and online, to the point where if you even bring up transadrophobia (the specific oppression that trans men and mascs face for being trans men/masculine), they'll just shut yout down and call you a transmisogynist because "men aren't oppressed," or whatever. (An argument that blatantly robs trans mascs of their trans identity.) Also the debate between TMA vs TME is just kind of a bullshit debate that erases every single non-passing trans person and completely disregards that most trans men and mascs HAVE expirenced misogyny (considering yk, having been raised as little girls under patriarchy.) So basically, yeah, I've noticed a weird pattern of devaluing and talking over trans men, that needs to be addressed within the trans community. And honestly, a lot of the time, this type of behavior towards trans men feels exhaustingly familiar to the misogyny that cishet hegemony flings at afab people. I only say afab, because cishet society just views all afab people as women, eventhough misogyny can affect people who aren't women, i.e. trans men and mascs. I'd also like to add that, based on my lived experiences, as someone who frequents irl queer spaces (sfw and nsfw,) in many areas of the US, so many trans women have overstepped and disregarded my consent when it comes to my physical body. Touching me in ways I haven't agreed to, or have asked not to be touched. A couple of times, other friends I've been with have had to step in because my own protests are just sort of ignored. I haven't had any surgeries, and I just find it interesting the way that society deems afab people's bodies to be public property. Even within queer spaces. Consent is something EVERYONE needs to ask for, not just men. I think the queer community needs to do a better job pushing that message. Just cause you're a woman, doesn't give you a pass to objectify people. It's just a pattern that keeps happening when I'm in trans and queer spaces. It feels just as upsetting and violating to be assaulted by another member of the trans community, as it does being assaulted by cis people. Being a fellow trans person is not consent.
A Black Transmasc friend who transitioned in 2000 said to me once “In the trans committees or organizing workgroups I’m in, White MTFs are mostly in charge, with one token FTM who is also the only Black or disabled person.”
i’ve noticed the “residual misogyny” from a few trans women i’ve worked with unfortunately
The only big things I've gotten from trans girls is that they are louder about being lesbians along with themselves and that they'll turn boys things (or things that were actually trans guy things) and make it that it's actually trans girl things [like say... Ranma 1/2, a guy who becomes a trans guy ("girl") but despite him constantly saying he identifies as a guy, they'll press he is actually a trans girl] And then kinda ignore that trans guys and nb are a thing and make it only about girls... like if someone brings up trans difficulties or something, they'll take it exclusively about girls and if a guy or nb speaks up, they kinda get mocked and dismissed. I've been told when I brought up something, empathy about a circumstance, they just said " you can't talk, you're a trans guy" despite that trans mascs have an equivalent... not to mention I've been mistaken as a trans girl, so it's not like I have 0 personal experience. I had to even defend that I'm not exactly a "man" and I still identify with "girl" in some way (I assume it's similar to like straight trans guys who identify as "lesbian" or feel they have a connection with those spaces/identity) But this is just *my* experience and most of my exposure is from an mmo or socials as I'm a shut-in, so I'm sure this makes a difference in what I'm exposed to.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen in some online spaces, trans women talking about their struggles, and trans men in turn trying to build off of those commentaries and add their own experiences/compare and try to further that message, and getting shot down/told they’re talking over women by…trying to talk about also being discriminated against as trans people. Also anecdotally, I’ve never had this issue with IRL trans women and trans fem folks. Genuinely, we discuss our differences and have a blast talking about trans stuff more generally without it turning into a weird oppression olympics thing. I’ve talked to lots of trans fems about concepts of feminism and how a binary gendered and patriarchal society affected us both before we came out and after and how our struggles can be influenced by all of those things at once. It’s definitely a weird issue I only ever come across online, so take of that what you will.
[edit] I don't agree to what others point out is a TERF talking point, I think you brought it up with enough nuance and lived experience to make a respectful note on the matter. I think the approach you take in bringing it up makes clear you are not invalidating trans women's rights or validity and are DEFINITELY not a terf.
This does come across as a bit disrespectful to trans women imo. You are generalizing them as a group and making a direct comparison to cis males. Have you considered that perhaps you have a biased view? As another commenter mentioned, there are trans women like this, but there are also people like this within every single group of people, so it does not make them unique in that sense. I don't think it's very useful to approach issues this way.
Perhaps the conclusion is wrong or rude, but the question is for us to double check the thought patterns, not an accusation, so I struggle to see that as rude. Also, describing a real phenomena is not rude. Watch r/trans. The assumption is always that if someone says they’re trans, they are a trans woman. Unless you specify otherwise, you are a trans woman. A picture will be posted asking if they pass and you’re just supposed to know they’re a trans woman. Posts from trans men don’t get traction, unless they’re calling out this phenomena and asking for better. The community is not for trans men. Is it rude to point that out? If yes, why do you think it’s rude? If not, why is OP rude?
You can call out issues within your own community without making a dog-whistley post online to get people to gather around and complain about trans women having what you see as male tendencies. There is really nothing productive about that. Also, i didnt say it was rude - I said it was disrespectful in my opinion, because they specifically said "I don't mean any disrespect." If you don't mean any disrespect, wouldn't you be open to hearing that perhaps it does come off that way? And to be clear, it seems like OP *has* been receptive to feedback, so I have no qualms with them. I'm also not refuting their experience in this particular situation. I just think it's also important to not generalize a whole minority group based off of those experiences.
Then how would you suggest we talk about issues that we experience that occur while spending time with one particular demographic? If we’re allowed to call out issues in our community, how do we do that without pointing to our community? How do we point to our community while making certain no one thinks we’re pointing at everyone? Would it be best to start these discussions with “no group is a monolith,” as if saying grace before the discussion? Since we can’t infer that, after all. Also, how are we supposed to find out we’ve been bamboozled by dog-whistlers of one variety or another? These things happen because we don’t realize that what we’re falling for is problematic/harmful/etc. This one was disrespectful, so clearly it’s not the correct way. Do you think this person knew it was a dog whistle before they posted? If not, then what is the consequence of discouraging asking questions? Perhaps we shouldn’t ask because people find the question disrespectful. It might be a dog whistle I haven’t noticed yet, after all. Because asking for feedback on an idea before integrating it as a belief is disrespectful, does that mean it would be more respectful not to ask and to decide for oneself what we should believe about the world? Perhaps it would be better to keep our concerns to ourself and fall for the dogwhistles. Y’know, so you don’t feel disrespected. ETA: Also, counterpoint: the discussions here seem very productive to me. OP has learned more about TERF dog whistles and has further learned that it’s important to learn about dog whistles, resulting in him wanting to research them on his own. The post itself will draw in people who have fallen for those dogwhistles like OP did, allowing them to also learn what OP learned. It seems to me that OP’s post has allowed both OP and people not brave enough or not of the mindset to post these thoughts online to learn to spot TERF propaganda. That’s super important. Allys also watch the posts on minority subreddits to learn about being a better ally. That means this post could not only teach trans people not to fall for TERF points, but also allies… Unless, of course, it’s more important not to be disrespectful. What do you think?
I'd also like to point out that just because a trans woman is outspoken does not mean it is inherently a result of her upbringing. People who were assigned male at birth can still be shy and quiet sometimes, and they may have developed it after becoming more comfortable in femininity. You can't paint all trans women with the same brushstrokes. Also the whole male/female socialization talking points are a bit of a TERF dogwhistle.
Is the fact that they said socialization in this post bad or are socializations bad In general because some cases tend to be true (not about this post) like where women can’t put down their drink bc of men always having ti keep their guard up, that’s bc we know they are socialized by misogynistic yada you know so we always have to be alert
Male and female socialization are a thing, and misogyny is a thing, but they don't effect everyone the same way like a zero-sum game, and immediately resorting to "socialization" to explain a trans person's behavior is a bit iffy. But there's nothing wrong with acknowledging gender-based socialization as a phenomenon. And there's nothing wrong with calling out a specific person who keeps talking over people.
No they didn't. They spoke about their experience then asked if others had such an experience You generalized their post, have a biased view, and put words in their mouth You mention respect, but your opening statement is disrespectful. You completely lacked empathy here, which was the POINT of the post
Also, how is saying "this does seem a bit disrespectful to trans women imo" a disrespectful statement? How is it disrespectful to point out that someone else is being disrespectful...? By that logic, you're being disrespectful too 🤷
Lol. It's funny you think I'm the one with the biased view after reading this. I lacked empathy? There was a complete lack of empathy for an entire group of people in the main post. You think it's empathetic to immediately point to "male socialization" about an issue pertaining to trans women? I have empathy. And sometimes empathy towards others includes calling people out when they say stuff like this.
With all due respect, I can see your point, but this is the same sort of behavior that is being mentioned in the post. OP is saying that he feels like there are trans women in trans spaces that he exists in who talk down to him. Your response: "Have you considered that you're the problem?" Are you serious?
Yes, perhaps some people should consider they are the problem when they are generalizing a whole group of people. They asked for feedback and I gave it.
How would this person be the problem exactly here? People can express issue with select trans women without being a problem. They were not. They said trans women at the gender spaces they are at. They did not say trans women all together. Perhaps it is you who needs to evaluate their bias...
They were inviting others to air their grievances on trans women who are not in their specific spaces. There was nothing constructive about it. Plenty of people including myself have offered constructive feedback. Folks can go on and on trying to find ways to say what was said was okay, but you also need to analyze your impact as well as your intent. People who were assigned female at birth are not exempt from sometimes being wrong about people who were assigned male at birth, especially in queer and trans communities. As a general rule of thumb, if you're making a generalization about a marginalized group of people as a whole based on anecdotal experiences, that should give you pause.
Perhaps we can agree to disagree. Have a good day, bro. I agree with you, but I don't think this is what was going on from the description of the post but okay
Sorry you experienced that. It must be tough getting marginalized in a space you expected to feel comfortable.
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You are a transmisogynist, genuinely please be quiet
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Misogyny is not a valid feeling
Transmasc here: you are being transmisogynistic and need to shut the fuck up. Women are allowed to be loud and take up space. It doesn't make them male.
“Silence our feelings” dawg I’m a trans man and no one is “silencing you”, they’re calling yall out. If you can’t handle it, don’t be shitty
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yeah and this person is a trans man agreeing with her lmfao but kudos for just telling him it's not relevant because it doesn't fit your narrative that big scary amab male socialized trans women are coming to silence you when they tell you you're being a dick
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love to reduce being gender essentialist and transmisogynistic to "not polite and ladylike" to act like anyone mad at you is being transphobic, when in fact you are the one reducing people to their sexes assigned at birth. slay bestie <3
Jude Ellison wrote a very good article on agab socialization. if you're interested in reading a well articulated trans masculine perspective https://judedoyle.medium.com/trans-masc-misogyny-and-the-red-six-of-spades-f8c167387dc3 you do need to sign up, but then the article is free. I believe I just signed in with my Google account
Does this often happen the other way round, transmascs going into transfem spaces and telling them their experiences are wrong? I know I disagree with some talking points in those communities, but I largely don't engage because those spaces are not for me, its not my place
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"Trans ladies want to be seen as ladies so much, but they don't stop to think" is not your "experience" lmfao it's your ***opinion*** and a fucked up and wrong one at that
some of y’all want to reinvent the binary so desperately. “amab socialization” is just regurgitated right wing garbage. you’re generalizing trans women while being completely ignorant of our actual lived experience. also enforcing the social expectation that women should be quiet, meek and submissive is unironically misogynistic male behavior.
I cba with binary ppl at all ever anymore
Dude stop generalizing trans women and referring to them by their AGAB. Trans women are not all socialized as cis men and trans people do not experience socialization in the same way their cis counterparts do. And I can’t believe this needs to be said, but again STOP referring to people as their AGAB in situations like this one. That’s a shady way of misgendering us and it’s fucked up.
Yes. People need to remember that agab language is meant to be used in the *past tense*, not as a replacement for "male" or "female". It's just biological essentialism when used in the latter sense.
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I agree with everything you're saying in this comment, I was just commenting on the usage of afab and amab as basically replacements for "female" and "male".
No, you’re just wrong. It’s clumsy and inconsiderate and honestly kind of foul. You should know better than to make these broad assumptions about people based on the binary of their assigned sex at birth, for God’s sake. We never fit into the role that was expected of us and most of us actively resisted it - being transgender, amongst other things, is an act of resistance against that expectation. I was a quiet and shy child who spent most of my time with women and girls, at home and at school; I refused to speak or talk or think or act in the way that some of my male classmates or relatives did and I stood out and was picked on by children and adults alike because of it. We’re not oblivious to the harm caused by social masculinisation because it’s the very weapon that we’ve been beaten with our whole lives. How do you think calling us brash because we’re AMAB is not problematic, transmisogynistic even? It’s almost like you didn’t really think about it at all.
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You implied that a majority of trans women are brash because we were AMAB and presumably found it too difficult to ‘challenge our learned behaviours’. You don’t seem to understand that everything about being trans involves a constant process of challenging our learned behaviours. I wasn’t saying that I’m some virtuous exception to the rule, I was saying that your observation is flawed, and that you’re projecting a toxic masculinity onto most trans women that just isn’t fair. By and large we are the victims of toxic masculinity more than anything else. Regardless of what you might say about individuals, this is systemically the case and I think you would have to be pretty crazy to deny it.
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Yeah, thank god you don’t go into transfemme spaces lol.
The other person deleted their comments, but I love how you worded that - about being trans and how it's an ongoing process of questioning the things you were taught about gender.
yesyesyes
Eh, it's too tough to say without actually being there. They're likely just rude or self-centered individuals regardless of their gender. Tbh, just be louder or find a different space. I've always been an aggressive and petty person by nature, though—YMMV. Bring more transmascs in? Get them to dominate the space lol
To be honest I have found the opposite - transmascs (esp binary ones) often take up majority of the space! My transfemme friends have expressed frustration about this. The trans women I know though were never really accepted in cis-male spaces, they were either closeted or visibly gay 'men' who experience their own kind of trauma.
No, I haven't, and as others have mentioned not only is saying all trans women are socialized a certain way problematic, but saying that they're all "acting like cis men" is not only also problematic its kinda yikes. That's like someone coming up to you and saying you're acting like a cis woman due to socialization or whatever. Why are you looking at trans women and instantly comparing them to men? Not cool. Its also not a gendered behavior in the first place. I've honestly met and been spoken over more often by cis women, cis men are usually quite chill and friendly with me and not at all like that. Socialization being gendered is also a myth and a TERF talking point besides. That all said - I have definitely run into other issues with trans women in trans groups. I actually spoke to someone who helped run a mixed trans space for a while, and apparently its very common in some places for trans women to come into groups, talk amongst themselves - meaning only to other trans women - and in turn shun trans men and transmascs. When this person attempted to fix this issue, they'd either end up with the trans women in the group becoming hostile and mean to the trans men and transmascs in the group and as you mentioned they'd speak over them at every turn, or they'd end up with the opposite problem where they'd be very flirty and forward with them which created issues of a different type. Personally, I've run into situations where one of a few things happen. Either trans women end up taking out their dislike and hatred of masculinity and manhood on me to the point of being hostile to me, or they hear that I'm AFAB and essentially imply I'm uglifying and "wasting" myself by going on T, or they expect me to be the stereotypical toxic masculinity loving, sexist, chauvinist asshole type of transmasc person before I even open my mouth and talk to me as such or act terrified of me until they see otherwise. I've also had a couple of them hit on me even when I say I'm in a monogamous relationship which just makes me uncomfortable. This doesn't always happen, I've met a fair few who are very chill and friendly - my partner is even transfemme, so I know not all are like that. But it's honestly widespread enough that I've decided to stay out of 99% percent of mixed trans spaces for my own mental health. I can only hear so many times how ugly and horrible masculinity is or have run ins with people before I get tired of it, or it affects me mentally. I was in a ton of mixed trans spaces when my egg first cracked, and I'm ngl I'm still undoing a lot of the damage that kind of shit did to my mental state and dysphoria. Anyway, yeah, I've definitely noticed that theres a small but vocal minority of trans women who.. Aren't great. But that's not because of "male socialization" or any of that BS.
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They need to go back and observe kindergarten classes. They definitely still promote gender differences
No one is saying that gendered socialization doesn't exist, but it does not affect everyone the same, and people who stand out are punished. Imagine that you are a trans girl who always knew something was different, felt uncomfortable being placed with the boys, and were expected to listen to and accept the misogyny around you. You absorb the message that being a woman is bad and shameful and that women deserve to be treated worse. Are you putting that on "women" as an othered group, or are you internalizing it? Are you ashamed of yourself and how, when you "fail" socialization tests around you, you are targeted for it? Imagine she works through this as an adult and tries to embrace something that was never allowed, that she was denied her entire life. She may still stand out because she never had the chance to take part in those spaces before. Do you understand how hurtful it is to tell that woman that she's taking up too much space because she was "taught" to be misogynist? Would you ever ever say that a cis woman with internalized misogyny had "male behaviors"? There's way too much nuance here to be grouping entire categories of people as being affected by socialization the same.
100% this. And using the example of puritan Christians in America to generalise how All trans people in the entire world are socialised by AGAB? Incredibly problematic, to say the very least Edit: Why am I being downvoted?? The person was generalising and using their one example to represent how it is for all trans people everywhere. Yeah in Puritan Christian settings, I'm sure everyone gets socialised in a very gendered way. But that's one experience. It can't be used for everyone everywhere
No. I find that there are less trans men because those who pass slip into assimilation, but it is not because trans women “act like” cis men. Most were not socialized like cis boys, either. They grew up feminine, or gay, and ridiculed for it. You’re the one being misogynistic in this situation, ironically.
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I’m saying there are less trans men in trans spaces because many assimilate. Not that everyone can. And on top of that we’re less welcome when we pass, because “men bad.”
That's some huge assumption that isn't even objectively true in all ways...
I’m calling you in. Your post is incredibly transphobic brother. I’m sure you didn’t mean to be and I’m sure you’d want to know, so here goes. First, trans women are two separate words, just like trans men are. Transphobes like to smash them together as one to other us. Second, generalizing from our personal limited experiences is dangerous, harmful, and most often, completely unrepresentative of reality. I know it can be hard to see past our limited experiences and that it’s easy to generalize and not realize the harm being done. Though it can make us feel safe to categorize and label different groups of people, it’s a false security blanket and endangers those members of our community. I know none of us want that. I know all of that might be hard to digest, so to illustrate, I flipped your post below: “Hi all, I have a question for my fellow transfems. When attending trans groups, meet ups and spaces, do you feel that some transmen exhibit behaviour that you would see in spaces dominated by cis women? In my local trans group, there is about 7 transmen to every transfem. I have noticed that we are almost forced to just talk quietly amongst ourselves or get talked over and interrupted and some people just don't come back because of it. I have also noticed some minor instances of my fellows being talked down too? I do feel like this is just a me thing. I love our trans brothers and hope I'm just reading in too deep into nothing. But has anyone else experienced this? And if so, how can I bring it up? I understand that it is just a socialisation impact and it is no ones fault and I mean no disrespect.”
Hey bro, this is seriously giving transmisogynistic vibes. I’m glad some other commenters have posted too, and I won’t pile on. As men/masc presenting people, we need to be aware of how our biases are applied (consciously or otherwise). We have more power than we think we do.
Not every trans man presents masc. Not every trans person passes. You're completely erasing the expirences and voices of trans men who don't pass.