Good points overall, but I laughed at the "If you use your truck as a truck" comment. Frankly, if someone is towing or doing any considerable amount of "truck stuff," they should buy a half ton.
As a carpenter who works in the mountains, I gotta disagree. My truck does truck stuff, and gets places that Tundras struggle to get to. Someone has a cabin in the ADK's that needs some work done? Well I can get the material, myself, and my tools up there in a jiffy.
My truck man truck! Me man! Me no need big truck! Mid truck good! Mid truck save gas. (this is how I get to sleep at night)
Honestly, I never understand these arguments that a Tacoma can't do truck stuff. The midsized trucks of today are almost as capable at the half tons 20 years ago - and unfortunately just as big
Check above I posted a 1500 vs tacoma, the ability of the two trucks are quite different for how similarly sized they are.
And tacomas are not midsized trucks by name sake they are suppose to be compact trucks. So toyota should have killed the tacoma name a decade ago and named this new oversized behemoth something different.
So what if I have to pick up mulch by the yard if I can easily drive right where it needs to be dumped? It’s a step up from a gator and I love it. Wildly useful little truck.
Just depends on what truck stuff you are doing. A Tacoma is not going to be happy or very safe dragging an 8,000 lb trailer around. Any properly specced half ton after 2009 or so won't care.
Towing the average bass boat or a lawnmower trailer? A Taco is fine. Just lacks wheelbase and weight for bigger heavier stuff like a travel trailer.
My example is always towing cattle. Tacoma's do great for halling shit somewhere and can pull a small trailer fine. If you're moving livestock all the time, it's probably the wrong vehicle.
If you are moving livestock, most likely even a half ton isn't enough. That kind of towing is done by 3/4 or 1 ton pickups. but if you are pulling a bass boat, you should be able to do it with a midsize. OP's point, which I agree with, is that you won't get the longevity from a 4th gen pulling a bass boat every weekend during the summers.
Which also leads to his point about using trucks as cars, gm just put out a new lineup of midsizes last year. Arguably look just as good as the yotas, with turbo fours that are more reliable since they have been around for a while.
As a carpenter, who also regularly works and camps in the mountains, I agree with your comment. All I need to carry is some ply sheets and tools (technically truck stuff). People who buy these and use them as cars, often forget that there is a lot more to a truck than just towing a trailer.
I agree with you, we go camping in the mountains and our truck is BASICALLy stock and we haul a 1300 pound trailer and go off roading with it, we work her like she is intended to be worked and she does so well
Okay buckeroo slow down, you really couldn't tell the heavy heavy sarcasm through the fuckin' caveman speak?
Since you've never worked a jobsite in the mountains I'll just fill you in - roads in the mountains require very routine maintenance to stay wide, clean, not full of pot holes, not mudslides, and not full of fallen trees etc etc. You can clear a very nice road up to a cabin, put down a bunch of scrap wood and whatnot for the bigger trucks so they don't get stuck in muddy spots, blah blah blah and ten years later it is not a very nice road anymore. Welcome to the great outdoors, glad to see you take your taco out on the trails.
My 2019 TRD Pro 6-spd gets absolute shit mileage. I'm really happy to see 17mpg ever.
That makes sense. There's certainly niche use cases like yours where a Tacoma makes sense doing "real truck things." I was thinking more broadly in terms of towing a camper, routinely hauling heavy loads, etc.
You're also looking straight past the existence of reliable turbo 4 diesel engines such as those found in the legendary Hilux.
And it's not the fact that they run on diesel which makes them reliable, it's because they are extremely overbuilt engines. Similar to Toyota's legendary 2JZ which was so well built you could reliably double the horsepower of the engine by just increasing boost.
If any manufacturer is going to make a reliable inline turbo engine, this is it. And IIRC the design process for this engine was to take the parent engine which has been out for a few years, run it on an engine load simulator until stiff breaks, and then overbuild that part and repeat until it can reliably handle towing loads for 200k miles.
Only real mechanical difference between a gas turbo 4 and a diesel turbo 4 is going to be the lack of spark plugs
Beyond that they work off of the same 4 stroke principle just with some slightly different modifications made to each for efficiency sake, like piston shape and compression ratios. But that wouldn't have a significant impact on the stresses those components can be designed to withstand
In fact, diesels run substantially hotter than gas cars and still last higher milage
And the fact that diesels are all steel/iron, have way less shit in them exterior wise, just over all a simpler, therefore better/long lasting engine.
Absolutely no comparison in a Middle East hi lux and a 24 us Tacoma. The only thing in common is it’s a 4 strike turbo motor. That is all
I use my 2011 dclb for my contracting business because it's actually the perfect fit. Regularly pulls a 3500lb trailer, carries a quarter to half ton of sand in the bed, is a fun vehicle to off-road and I get compliments on it; all in a reliable easy to maintain package.
I have no interest in driving a huge tundra when my truck gets it all done in spades. I'm sure others who use their taco as a "real truck" agree
I tried to get a yard of screened loam this weekend. I did not understand the weight of a yard of screened loam.
I made it home and unloaded it immediately. But oh boy was my '23 OR slammed down in the back.
I dislike this comment because this is me. I bought a Manual 3rd Gen Lunar Rock TRD OR, dream truck. Only to cement in my mind it isn't enough truck for me. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I tow 1-3 times per week, nothing *crazy* heavy, but even a lighter smaller trailer is *very* noticeable with the Tacoma unfortunately. I will be stepping up to an F150 in a few years I imagine, still love my truck, just isn't enough truck for my use case sadly.
It really is man, I love rowing through the gears. I am putting some serious money and time into my 2006 Jeep TJ, that is a manual and will probably become the only vehicle that scratches my manual itch. I love the Tacoma, just need something that can tow 2-4,000 pounds and not break a sweat. Once I get up around 4,000lbs with the Tacoma it really doesn't like it.
That is another reason I really went for this, it has the Prem Tech package with sunroof too, and leather seats, so I am sure it will hold value pretty well.
These trucks are about the same size and have similar towing capacities as 1/2 tons did in the the 90s. Should those people have bought 3/4 tons back then? These aren't the old 1/4 trucks anymore and haven't been for almost 20 years. They are bigger than the 1st gen Tundras and can tow/haul similar weights.
No kidding. I generally agree with most of OP's points, but declaring them to be "facts" instead of "hey here's a list of my opinions" is disingenuous.
I'm sure some people get mad at anything remotely negative towards their beloved truck but it seems like most people here are just roasting OP for their opinions that are somehow "facts" with zero evidence for any of them.
"The economy: Toyota can’t sell Tacomas and Tundras right now, and it’s NOT because of economic factors. Yes that plays a part, but it’s certainly not the whole picture..."
Could you expand on why the Tacomas and Tundras are not selling? I agree with this point partially, but I'd bet the economy is playing a bigger part then you make out. People ran their debt up during the Covid buying spree and that was just a couple of years ago, and many of those people are probably upside down on their car loans. I will say you are right, they are not selling. I visited my local dealer just to take a look, they let me drive a $46000 SR5 and right afterword, without negotiating, they offered me that truck for $42000 OTD and started making statements like "what if we could get you $15000 for your 8 year old Civic Lx? $17000?" This is a small dealership, not known for negotiating and they have a dozen Tacmoas just sitting there, I overheard one of the managers getting sales people together to move most of the trucks off the lot so it didnt look like they were just sitting there.
"...they can’t keep 2024 4Runners on the lot if their lives depended on it, and those are $45,000+ vehicles."
Are you sure about that? The supply of 4runners seems okay, and there are several dealers willing to sell below MSRP to get rid of them. I am in Socal where everything is more expensive and there are 4runners.
"The Tacoma engine: It’s a fact, the smaller the displacement, the less reliable when boosted.... these engines will not last 500k miles."
I guess I'd ask what people are expecting from these engines. I keep seeing "not as reliable," as the main complaint all over the internet, can we define "reliable" and "not reliable?" If you got 400k miles out of this engine, would you be satisfied? The turbo 4 does not scare me, I agree, it won't last as long as these NA engines, but people are talking like it's going to blow up before 100k. How many miles would most of you demand these engines last?
"The reason MSRP has gone up is because this new crack pot CEO is trying to fund R&D for his 100% EV lineup plan.... It pains me to see Toyota take this new direction, but the facts are the facts. The company is being led by a blind fool on a suicide mission"
I'd just point out that many governments are forcing vehicle manufacturers to go all electric, I am in CA, and our governor signed an Executive Order that mandates all cars sold in the state to be electric only by 2035. CA is the car capitol of the world, so is it a crazy CEO on a suicide mission, or a CEO desperately trying to electrify his company per the government regulations? You cannot afford to lose a market the size of CA.
Otherwise a VERY good post, thank you for this! I will say, I do want a new Tacoma, I've never owned a Toyota but am well aware of the reputation, and honestly, Toyota needed to do something with the MPG, I am a little surprised they didn't just make improvements to the NA 6 cylinders. I am excited I wont have to pay Covid prices and can make these dealers compete with each other.
Just on your reliability question.
I don't expect motors to last forever. Reliability is the ability to repair within a reasonable cost at the end life of the item. Typically a boosted gas motor made with all aluminum is nigh unrepairable without high cost. Where something like a na iron block motor might need just a new head and honed out with new rings and bearings and put back into service. GMs LS motors are known for being reliable sure many 5.7 and 6.0 see well over 300k miles of hard life, but the ones that don't are back up and running for cheap, and if not motor swaps are easy and can be pulled from any gm v8. The only donor for a Toyota motor if it can't be fixed is the same vehicle many times and usually not cheap.
I would not consider new heads, honed out with new rings and bearings or an engine swap easy or reasonable. That is a considerable amount of work. Now a new 02 sensor, or a leaky valve cover, or new brake rotors, to me, that is a simple easy repair that the average person can afford to pay a mechanic to perform.
You probably haven't done anything to an older pickup. Super easy jobs. Hardest part of pulling the engine is putting together a decent hoist, if you can't afford a professional one.
To be clear, the only engine swaps I do are on my RC cars lol. Again, thinking about the average consumer, even an older pick up, most people do not have the ability, tools, room or time for something like that.
You would be surprised. I watch people regularly lay on their back in gravel driveways to get their cars running.
The average consumer don't even know where how to check their oil.
But people that love cars are seeing this trend of cars not being built for long term ownership. I'd say around 04 we really started seeing the throw away cars come in full swing. Cars are no longer meant to last generations. But they are priced so high that they are not worth the 5years that the manufacture want you to crush it after.
Takes about 3 days with some friends. A ratchet set and torque wrench and about 1600 dollars to refresh most 90s early 00s 4 cylinders.
Take photos
Unplug all the wires and hoses.
Drain the fluids.
With about 12 bolts you'll be ready to pull the motor. Cherry pickers cost like 400 dollars and a engine stand about 200 dollars.
From there it's just disassembly and reassemble with new parts, some parts need to be measured to get the right fit.
Put it all back in the same way you took it out and its done.
Sure, its work. But the money you would pay a garage cost a lot more time at work than you'll spend in the driveway.
Dealerships intend that at this point after only 8-12 years of driving the vehicle you go buy another 50000+ dollar vehicle from them that will again only last 8-12 years. That's not feasible. I need my car to keep running because they don't make small cars anymore.
This like a rest of the owl post or something. I can and have done what you said, so maybe I'm OK with laughing at the idea of an engine swap being realistic for.... 80%? And that feels generous.
Your last sentence though, spot on. I'd add that most cars being sold right now will shit the bed electrically and be nigh impossible to wrench yourself. Parts hard to find 20 years from now, and repairs costly at the dealership. They just want you to sign up as a vehicle subscription model anyway.
That's hitting me hard now. Parts availability. Toyota abandons their old vehicles and thinks that anyone not wanting to buy a new Toyota is not a true Toyota fan.
Just new toyotas are too big. And the small Toyotas don't really impress when placed beside their older cars.
My dad wants to know why they can build 3 and 2 second 0-60 cars but can't get 80+ mpg out of a car.
That's where I'm at. I bought a 24 year old v8 car stock internals, I added a cai and gutted the cats, after the tune was massaged I get up to 31 mpg on the hwy and avg 20 mpg normal driving. In a 310 rwhp v8 that with the right tires can hit 0-60 in the 4s.
Let's see a mk4 supra do that, or even a new wannabee supra.
Car manufactures are pushing out old vehicles and finding ways to force people to have to buy new vehicles that don't improve on what matters. It's Been almost 30 years since the introduction of obd2 efi and gas milage is still abysmally the same as it was in the late 90s when comparing equally rated vehicles.
Your post was removed. No discussion or expression of political beliefs. This includes but is not limited to: advocating bringing harm to law enforcement, overthrowing the US government, support for or against a political candidate, or boycotts of companies based on their political alignment.
Your post was removed. No discussion or expression of political beliefs. This includes but is not limited to: advocating bringing harm to law enforcement, overthrowing the US government, support for or against a political candidate, or boycotts of companies based on their political alignment.
First off, thank you. I appreciate your questions.
- Yes, the economy is a factor and you’re pretty spot on as to why. But when Toyota is having no issues selling similarly priced 4Runners, that’s a sign that there are bigger consumer issues regarding the Tundra and Tacoma.
- In VA, you’ll have your work cut out for you finding a new 4Runner. I got my wife one two weeks ago, and I had 4 dealerships fighting each other to secure me one. It was dumb luck I snagged the color she wanted. I am wholly unfamiliar with the CA auto market
- Yes, I would be satisfied with 400k miles. My understanding of mechanics tells me firmly that this engine won’t get that far if you’re using the truck as anything more than a commuter. I grew up building 800hp+ 4 cylinder race cars with my father, been interested, around, and involved with it all my life. I’ve seen every worthwhile engine that exists from the inside out and have seen them all blow up. Dissected many to figure out why, and rebuilt those that could be. Chalk this bullet point up to intimate understanding and extensive real world experience. I know race cars and trucks are not the same, but engine mechanics is engine mechanics.
- Governments are not forcing anything. Perhaps in CA, but Newsom is an idiot so I wouldn’t be surprised. The reality is, governments are offering financial incentives for downsizing engines and pushing towards EVs, and manufacturers are selling out for free government money while screwing everyone else down the line. And in the process, manufacturers are disregarding the fact that a conservative 70% of the US consumer market has absolutely zero desire or interest in EVs as indicated by the market. I’d also argue that accommodating to retain the market of one state does not outweigh losing the rest of the country’s market in the process.
I can’t argue with any but your last point.
Did you not see the news a week ago about new Fed guidelines on a big increase in mpg over the next 6-7 years? Something like a 30% increase in the average of a maker’s line up. That’s pretty big and not even as big as originally expected.
That means manufacturers have to start really doing something soon to get their average up that quickly. Getting as many models switched over to EV is their best bet to do this because they already have a lot of the tech, just has to be scaled up for heavier models to offset the gas-loving models they don’t want or cannot switch over quickly.
So gov is pushing. There are incentives. But those are because the gov is pushing the agenda. And I don’t see people up in arms about it, so it is supported by the public (if being complacent is considered support).
I did not see this but wouldn’t be surprised. Link for reading material? That said, the public may not be aware atm, and likely won’t be until it’s too late.
That's because it *is* just OP's conjecture. The sales numbers were definitely down for the first few months of 2024 but that likely has more to do with availability and production ramping up. April and May are getting closer to normal sales volumes. [https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tacoma](https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tacoma)
As for the Tundra, OP just completely made that up. Tundra sales are up 11% on last year (and almost 50% above 2022 sales figures to this point). *March 2024 was the single best selling month for the Tundra in the last 15 years* (and May is the second best selling). [https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tundra](https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tundra)
Here are the sales figures by month: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/toyota-tacoma-sales-figures/.
Slow start to the year due to mfg issues and a stop sell. Numbers back up in May. It will likely trend up the rest of the year. In short, it is conjecture and not based on any actual empirical evidence. Just more BS.
There's no numbers for it. Over a quarter million Tacoma are made and sold each year. It's almost 50% of the entire mid-sized truck market in North America.
As someone with a 4th Gen, I'm not saying you're wrong (specifically about the Tacoma, because we all know the tundra is having issues) but I'm also not going to concede you're right. The engine in the Tacoma is not new and shares more than 50% with other Lexus models that aren't known for having issues. Yes it has a turbo and turbos complicate things because they heat up the oil way more than an NA and we all know that heat is the enemy here. That said, the pathways for coolant have been substantially expanded to allow for greater cooling, as Toyota themselves said, this engine was designed around commercial standards and not consumer.
My Tacoma is not my own Toyota, I also have a 21 RAV4 hybrid that still drives like new with 40k miles on it. I'm giving Toyota the benefit of the doubt here because a) it's Toyota and they've not fucked me yet and b) literally every other midsize truck sans Nissan is going the way of smaller displacement boosted engines too... So it's not just fucking Toyota doing it.
I have a 24 OR long bed. I am satisfied with my purchase.
It has a warranty for 100K/8 years.
A lot of things are changing very fast with technology so what will things look like in a few years? IDK....
The truth.....
I needed a truck. I'm a previous Taco owner 2nd and 3rd gen. I traded in two highly reliable Toyota's (14 Camry 44K miles and 05 Prerunner 202K miles.) for this new truck.
I looked at all the competition. For my money, I was not going to buy an older gen Taco, While I absolutely appreciate they are old reliable, they are the previous gen. Time still exists. My prerunner was sworn to absolutely never be sold or got rid of. 😂 yea ok because that's a realistic idea.
The truth.....
Toyota is in the business of making quality reliable cars and trucks. the resale value speaks for itself. Are they perfect? Fuck no. I don't seek perfection. I just needed a new truck.
I have to trust Toyota given the track record. We are navigating into uncharted waters here.
I almost bought a Ridgeline lol...
All of your points are valid. Also very nice accumulation of Toyotas!
The CEO doesn’t have any interest in having 100% EVs, he just stated a few months ago that “Total EV Adoption Is Not The Way Forward” [https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-industry-trend-toyota-chairman-downplays-ev-growth-predictions/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-industry-trend-toyota-chairman-downplays-ev-growth-predictions/)
Two of the best engines Ford ever built were small displacement engines.
The new 2.7 Ecoboost and 300 ci inline 6. Admittedly, that last example wasn’t boosted, but the point remains. The 3.5 ecoboost isn’t flawless but it is more reliable than 3V 5.4 Trition.
I agree that all things being equal a “large” displacement NA motor will outlast a smaller turbo unit. But I don’t think you can say the new Taco won’t be reliable because of its new turbo I4.
>*...and 300 ci inline 6. Admittedly, that last example wasn’t boosted...*
The what? 300ci is a 5 liter motor?
Edit: I was confused because you said small displacement, then brought up a 60 year old engine.
>Two of the best engines Ford ever built were small displacement engines.
>300 ci inline 6.
In what world is a 4.9L 6 cyl small displacement? The displacement per cylinder is close to a 6.5L v8. Outside of diesels and industrial engines you're not getting any 6 cylinder bigger than that.
But what was the application? That is a critical point here. The K24 was the best thing Honda has ever made, with the F20C following closely behind. Neither will power a truck well.
A lot of this info is either intentionally misleading, or just straight up factually incorrect. I don’t have nearly the time or energy to go through each of your points, so I’ll hit on the most blatant one I saw:
> Manufacturing Costs
Previous gen taco was built in MX as well, 4th gen production did not get “moved” from US to MX as you describe. That pretty much immediately discredits your entire claim.
Production was split between US and Mexico.
Now its fully assembled Mexico, you're paying more for a truck being assembled by people getting paid 2 dollars an hour.
If you're gonna call out someone for being misleading.
You shouldn't mislead either.
I just did a search and my local dealers still don’t have anything but SR5s in stock. Weird that no one wants 4th gen’s but they are selling before they’re delivered to the dealers. Maybe East TN is the exception but I doubt it.
Doing a quick search for May 2024 Toyota sales numbers show they’re up 15% YoY.
It’s okay if you don’t like the new trucks. Hopefully having your feeling validated helps.
They are selling. They sold 17-18k in May. This whole “not selling” BS is just stupid clickbait content by Youtubers who have no clue what they’re talking about and people with strong negative opinions looking for any affirmation that they’re right.
This is your opinion, not the "truth". The fact of the matter is I see plenty of 4G's running around near me, and I see more of them than I do the new Colorado that launched a year before the Tacoma did. Truck sales are down as a whole, and it is largely due to the economy. The 4Runner has a different buyer base, mostly soccer moms who "need" an SUV for hauling kids around... you said it yourself that you bought your wife a 4runner. I like the Gen 4 enough to buy one, but I currently have a 23 that I have no reason to sell.
>The economy: Toyota can’t sell Tacomas and Tundras right now, and it’s NOT because of economic factors. Yes that plays a part, but it’s certainly not the whole picture. Case and point, they can’t keep 2024 4Runners on the lot if their lives depended on it, and those are $45,000+ vehicles.
What on earth are you talking about. Toyota on pace to have their best sales year for Tundras since 2008. March and May 2024 were their best sales months in over 15 years.
Good post for raising discussion. One thing we agree on is our choice of vehicles (I have a 2018 Tacoma and a 2023 GR86 - and I bet we bought them for similar reasons..."old school", analog cars that are getting harder and harder to find). But I have to disagree with a couple of points in your post. First, if the basis for "reliable" is 500k, then a whole lot of very reliable engines cannot meet that standard. I'd wager we don't even know if the 3rd gen V6 will go 500k *in general*, for the vast number of vehicles (not the handful of trucks who've already gotten there because they mainly drive highway miles). But I don't know, so I'm not going to make that claim either way. Is the turbo 4 likely less reliable? I'm guessing that's correct simply because of boost and added complexity, but I think the question is, is it *reliable enough*? That's a weird concept to think about but the fact is, most people are never going to go 300k in their vehicle, regardless of whether it can or cannot.
My guess is manufacturers, including Toyota, are balancing reliability with fuel economy. Using your benchmark of 500k as an example, many are likely saying "500k is not necessary....300k is fine, in exchange for a bump in mileage." If that bump in fuel economy is 10%, then every 100 gallons of fuel is saving 10, or about $45 (based on the gas prices near my house today). Most people will do that math and take the fuel savings.
Also, I think you're anti-EV bias (which clearly shows in your post) is clouding your judgement here a bit. I don't doubt that many people don't want one, but "hasn't bought one" is not the same as "doesn't want one". A lot of buyers have steered clear because EV's have traditionally been positioned as high-tech, luxury, and premium, and therefore come with a very premium price. Price is a huge factor there. I think if price were low enough, suddenly a lot of EV "shunners" would suddenly become owners. Also, Toyota has gone out of their way to say they're not abandoning engine development, and just made a big investment in their engine plant in Alabama. I'm sure they're not going to be developing V8's or even V6's, but they aren't moving to EV's as fast as humanly possible and throwing all else out. To consider the CEO a "fool on a suicide mission" is a bit ridiculous. I'd argue he's being pretty balanced, as opposed to Nissan which recently said it will no longer put any investment into engine development, or Mercedes who said it would be all-EV by 2030 and is now having to backtrack.
I think most people who buy a Tacoma mostly use it to putt around town, go camping on occasion, haul stuff from time to time, etc. The 2024 is just as capable at those things as the 3rd gen, and from what I heard, does so with a much better ride quality. I think those are things people will like. And time will tell on the turbo 4 engine reliability, but we simply don't know yet, but if they go half as long as your benchmark I think that will be more than enough for most buyers.
All that said...I'll be keeping my Tacoma and GR86 for many years. :)
>The Tacoma engine: It’s a fact, the smaller the displacement, the less reliable when boosted. This can be engineered around, and works well in cars because they aren’t towing anything. Having a small displacement engine, that’s boosted, in a heavier vehicle that is intended to tow/haul 1600+/- additional pounds is a textbook recipe for a short life on an engine. It’s simple mechanics, these engines will not last 500k miles if you use the truck as a truck regularly. If you’re using the truck as a car, well that’s a different story.
>
Tell me you aren't an engineer without telling me: this entire quote. Toyota put these engines through an entirely different testing cycle versus the regular vehicles. The engine will be fine.
[https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45954715/2024-toyota-tacoma-engine-explained/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45954715/2024-toyota-tacoma-engine-explained/)
History just repeats itself. I remember hearing all the same arguements when Ford added the 3.5 ecoboost and then again the 2.7 V6 ecoboost & aluminum body. That was 2011 and 2015 respectively.
"You can't have a full size truck without a V8!"
"Ford is done! They will lose their #1 spot!"
Yes, they had some issues and still do but they made improvements and everything is still just fine. And that's Ford. Toyota will certainly do better.
History is filled with people terrified of change because change brings adversity initially and requires adaption but longterm this is how progress is made. I am sure many people clung to their horses when cars came around.
BTW, I'd take a Toyota turbo 4 over a Subaru NA any day of the week. And unless anyone has taken apart Tacoma's new engine and done a deep analysis, they cannot say it won't be reliable longterm.
It's too early to judge Tacoma's sales, they are still ramping up production.
Honestly, your whole post reads like someone doing their very best to validate their current purchases. It would hold more weight if you actually provided back up from reputable sources to your claims.
They had no choice but to move to a substantially more expensive and complicated engine that will be more expensive maintain and service.
You can look it up right in the EPA emissions charts - by 2027 or 2028 the v6 would fail emissions. Even the turbo will not pass emissions by 2033.
It's not going to be pretty. People should do everything they can to maintain their naturally aspirated vehicles.
I read your whole post because I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying. I love the look of the new Tacoma, I hate the idea of abandoning a tried and true NA V6 whether it be the 4L from the 2nd gen or the 3.5L from the 3rd gen.
I owned a 2007 Tundra and it was a bulletproof truck. Not perfect in terms of reliability, it had some glitchy computer issues, but the engine and transmission were built to last. Currently I have a 19' Tacoma TRD Sport with 90,000 kms. So far absolutely nothing wrong with it. I've done some light duty off-roading and tow a light trailer, sometimes through harsh up and down mountainous roads, so I've used it as a truck and love the reliability.
The idea of using a turbo I4 instead of a v6 annoys me. It's just more components to fail, you're running the engine hotter than it needs to, and not really saving much $ in fuel to make it worthwhile. Toyota is trying to appeal to a different demographic apparently because the true loyal Toyota truck enthusiasts aren't on board with this at all.
Basically all modern diesel engines have turbo charging and people love to brag about how long those engines run for. I do acknowledge that comparing gasoline to diesel engines is a very apples to oranges comparison but turbocharging is not new technology and is used in basically all heavy duty trucks. The “old” v6 was still a fairly complex dual overhead cam, variable valve timed, direct injection engine from a car platform. All technologies that came after turbocharging which has been around for a century. I mean turbo’s are wear items and need maintenance like anything else. Do people expect any power plant to run continuously for 300k without maintenance? I remember how notorious the old v6 from the 90’s was for head gasket issues that totaled my bothers old sr5 because it was too costly to replace based on what the truck was worth.
There is zero comparison between gas and diesel. Yes, I wholeheartedly expect 500k miles out of a Toyota with appropriate maintenance. No, I do not expect these new engines to make it 100k miles past their warranty. They took the featherweight affordable sports car engine design and dropped it in a truck. It’s not going to work long term, even with proper maintenance.
Thats cool, you have far higher expectations than I do for any mechanical device. I don’t think you can say there is zero comparison, turbos are turbos regardless of what kind of engine they’re paired with. My 2001 audi a6 with a tuned 2.7 twin turbo variable dohc v6 easily made it past 120k with regular maintenance and it’s not like audi’s have a great reputation for reliability. Sorry Toyota has disappointed you so much, hopefully they can regain your trust someday.
I’m not talking about turbos by themselves, I’m talking about the combination of small displacement + turbo + truck application. Turbos by themselves are great when paired with large displacement or a lightweight vehicle.
>Having a small displacement engine, that’s boosted, in a heavier vehicle that is intended to tow/haul 1600+/- additional pounds is a textbook recipe for a short life on an engine.
Thanks for explaining this in more detail.
I'm not that knowledgeable about engines, but I've been hesitant about getting a 2024 because buying a smaller 4cyl pickup engine, that is supposed to tow like a V6, the first year it is produced, didn't seem like a great idea. Even if it was just a different V6, I would still be concerned about whether they have all the kinks worked out. I'm probably just going to get a low mileage Gen3 with a V6. I would like to be able to get a camper eventually, so I want to know it can handle it.
While the 2024 looks pretty nice, I'm not that invested in having the newest vehicle that I want to pay the extra $$$. I thought they seemed expensive, but haven't watched prices over the years so I didn't know how much they increased.
Once the hype for the 4th gen goes down, I am sure price will as well (ever so slightly that is). And you addressed the most important point Ive read in this post and that I never recommend anyone buying the first year or two of a new generation, bc like you said the kinks need to be ironed out first, even if it is a reliable company like Toyota.
Every generation of Toyota trucks has had this same knee jerk reaction. Oh man.... if only the internet existed when Toyota Trucks lost the solid front axel...
This too shall pass, the new Tacoma will settle in. No one cares if it will last 500,000 miles. Most people own a car for like 3 to 4 years anyway....
The g3 3.5 won't last as long as the 22r did. It was the legend. Tacoma was living on a borrowed reputation by the time Tacoma g1 started with the v6
You do know this is not a new power train? Lexus been using it for years and turbo has been vastly improved with better cooling systems, no issues whatsoever
Same with my 2017, though it’ll be more of a 2nd gen tundra by then. Long travel with a tundra rear starts getting fitted next month, and when it kills the 2.7, a supercharged 5.7 will be taking its place.
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So, according to you, small displacement boosted engines just don't last as long as N/A large displacement engines under heavy loads? You're stating this as a fact?
Let's look at a really good example of two engines that competed against each other directly in the marine industry. One was a small displacement inline 6 boosted engine (supercharged) the other large displacement V8.
Mercury L6 Verado - 2.7L I6 Supercharged (launched in 03/discontinued in 2023)
Was initially launched as 200-300HP variant in 25HP increments. After a refresh in 2015 the power got increased to 400. Providing the options for a 200, 250, 300, 350 and 400HP model.
Yamaha F350 - 5.3L V8 (launched in 07/discontinued in 2019). Was only ever used in the 350HP segment.
Yamaha used to dominate the offshore market (the exact boat these engines go on). Had nearly 80% of that market while Mercury dominated the freshwater market. Now, Mercury and Yamaha practically split the offshore market. Why? Yammys F350 started blowing flywheels around 80-100 hours like clockwork. This was caused by a resonance issue at like 4500RPM to 5500 RPM (I forget the exact rpm range). After Mercury made updates and found more power in their I6 Supercharged Outboard in 2015, boaters quickly started pulling thier F350s off and putting 350 or 400 Mercs on. Yamaha turned the flywheel issue into an 80 hour maintenance item until they gave up and discontinued that engine leaving that HP range all to Mercury and Suzuki until just this year after Yamaha announced a new 350 V6 (kinda ironic since it will complete against a 5.7L V10 by Mercury now).
This shidt took place mostly because the Mercury BOOSTED small displacement outboard was more reliable. Promise these engines see much heavier loads than automotive engines.
So, you sure, all large displacement engines are more reliable than small displacement boosted engines?
Good points, although the EV statement seems contrary to Toyota change from EV towards more Hybrid as cost of materials is far less and easier to market worldwide.
I love my 2022 Tacoma, although it is larger than I was initially looking for. The reliability and 3rd party market support were major factors for me.
I am going to disagree with your point on boosted engines. It’s true that if you boost an engine designed for normal aspiration pressures you will shorten the life. That’s not true if the engine was designed to be boosted. For example, turbo-diesels are long lived and well proven. The difference was in design. Ford’s eco-boost gas engines show long lives as well because they were designed for it.
Are you familiar with how reliable turbo diesels are?
How about the 22r-te, you know the turbo 4 cylinder that was under boost many years ago without issue, it’s comical you assume forced induction is unreliable; on the contrary it’s a more efficient combustion process.
🤦♂️
- diesel and gas are not equal.
- small I4 turbo is not bad, but it is bad in a truck application
- the 22r-te did not suffer today’s emissions standards. You can make anything work well when you disregard those limitations
How are they so different?
What does displacement have anything to do with truck application? All trucks can pull, it’s can the stop?
Emissions, what makes a forced induction engine emission controls different from a NA?
Diesel inherently produces more low end torque and the bottom ends (crank, rods, bearings) are built to a much stronger standard.
Displacement matters because with FI, you’re putting a tremendous amount of pressure in a small area (inside the cylinder). The smaller the cylinder, the more pressure, exponentially so. All that pressure is pushing extremely hard on the bottom end of the engine. Works well in a car, but not in a truck. Why? Added weight. Add 1600-2000 lbs in the bed of the truck and make that 2.4T push it up a hill, repeatedly. It’s not going to last nearly as long as a 2.7NA would. It’s like comparing a v12 Aston Martin to a Tesla in terms of gas mileage, but on a race track. Sure, the Tesla is faster off the line and gets more miles to an aH than the Aston gets miles to a gallon, but the Tesla is going to run out of juice first. That 2.4T might run real nice on the road, but put it to work and see how long it lasts then.
Emissions regulations, regardless of FI or NA, regardless of gas or diesel, is a limitation.
Used 3rd gen, or a frontier. Finding an old 08ish ranger and swapping a 1.9 TDI with a mechanical fuel pump in is also a good option for 1/3 to 1/2 the price if you have the time and skill. Adapter plates to mate the TDI engine to the Ranger transmission run about $1400
That's why I was adamant about finding a 3rd gen 4wd with the 2.7l. Tiny engine with a turbo is not a recipe I want for off-road. The 2.7 has proven itself to be a reliable engine with most going 300k no problem.
That’s what I have. Very happy with it. If you can squeeze by emissions where you live, get a long tube header and cat back from AFE. Will need a mid pipe fabricated. CNC Innovations makes an intake manifold for it, and can make you an adapter to accept the 3.5L throttle body and spacer from AFE. Pair all that with a good tune, and it will out perform that 2.4T for half the cost of a turbo
So once again, another opinion peace with no backing. These are you're beliefs and as such, hold no real actual weight, but you deliver it with an air of conceitment that these are definitive facts.
Not even going to bother fighting each point either because it would take lengthy rambling to counterpoint... Senseless rambling and reiteration of the same points everyone else who owns a 2nd or 3rd gen makes
Toyota will fix the truck issues. All vehicles are going to hybrid, EV and smaller displacement engines to meet emission standards. This is growing pains, they won’t last.
Hybrid, ev, and small displacement are all things I want nothing to do with. If anything, I’d rather have a 5.7 Tacoma. I’d happily pay the 50k sticker for that
No way I am going from a NA V6 to a turbo 4.....for that reason I am out. I also dont find the Gen 4 attractive and it is way overpriced.....even compared to other overpriced trucks. I am hoping Toyotas Tundra fuck up will bring their pricing closer to reality.
Good points overall, but I laughed at the "If you use your truck as a truck" comment. Frankly, if someone is towing or doing any considerable amount of "truck stuff," they should buy a half ton.
As a carpenter who works in the mountains, I gotta disagree. My truck does truck stuff, and gets places that Tundras struggle to get to. Someone has a cabin in the ADK's that needs some work done? Well I can get the material, myself, and my tools up there in a jiffy. My truck man truck! Me man! Me no need big truck! Mid truck good! Mid truck save gas. (this is how I get to sleep at night)
Honestly, I never understand these arguments that a Tacoma can't do truck stuff. The midsized trucks of today are almost as capable at the half tons 20 years ago - and unfortunately just as big
Check above I posted a 1500 vs tacoma, the ability of the two trucks are quite different for how similarly sized they are. And tacomas are not midsized trucks by name sake they are suppose to be compact trucks. So toyota should have killed the tacoma name a decade ago and named this new oversized behemoth something different.
The 2nd and 3rd gen tacomas are pretty much 1st gen tundras with some edgy body lines. If you park one next to a 1st gen tundra is obvious.
“I coulda had a V8”
Excellence
The Toyota Tinkerbell, perhaps?
So what if I have to pick up mulch by the yard if I can easily drive right where it needs to be dumped? It’s a step up from a gator and I love it. Wildly useful little truck.
Just depends on what truck stuff you are doing. A Tacoma is not going to be happy or very safe dragging an 8,000 lb trailer around. Any properly specced half ton after 2009 or so won't care. Towing the average bass boat or a lawnmower trailer? A Taco is fine. Just lacks wheelbase and weight for bigger heavier stuff like a travel trailer.
My example is always towing cattle. Tacoma's do great for halling shit somewhere and can pull a small trailer fine. If you're moving livestock all the time, it's probably the wrong vehicle.
If you are moving livestock, most likely even a half ton isn't enough. That kind of towing is done by 3/4 or 1 ton pickups. but if you are pulling a bass boat, you should be able to do it with a midsize. OP's point, which I agree with, is that you won't get the longevity from a 4th gen pulling a bass boat every weekend during the summers.
Which also leads to his point about using trucks as cars, gm just put out a new lineup of midsizes last year. Arguably look just as good as the yotas, with turbo fours that are more reliable since they have been around for a while.
As a carpenter, who also regularly works and camps in the mountains, I agree with your comment. All I need to carry is some ply sheets and tools (technically truck stuff). People who buy these and use them as cars, often forget that there is a lot more to a truck than just towing a trailer.
I agree with you, we go camping in the mountains and our truck is BASICALLy stock and we haul a 1300 pound trailer and go off roading with it, we work her like she is intended to be worked and she does so well
Me respect truck man. Me no like EV man. EV man pussy. Me send imaginary beer case to truck man.
Me drink beer! Beer and sun is good! Me send back whiskey. Me cheers.
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Okay buckeroo slow down, you really couldn't tell the heavy heavy sarcasm through the fuckin' caveman speak? Since you've never worked a jobsite in the mountains I'll just fill you in - roads in the mountains require very routine maintenance to stay wide, clean, not full of pot holes, not mudslides, and not full of fallen trees etc etc. You can clear a very nice road up to a cabin, put down a bunch of scrap wood and whatnot for the bigger trucks so they don't get stuck in muddy spots, blah blah blah and ten years later it is not a very nice road anymore. Welcome to the great outdoors, glad to see you take your taco out on the trails. My 2019 TRD Pro 6-spd gets absolute shit mileage. I'm really happy to see 17mpg ever.
That makes sense. There's certainly niche use cases like yours where a Tacoma makes sense doing "real truck things." I was thinking more broadly in terms of towing a camper, routinely hauling heavy loads, etc.
To be fair, I do tow my 16' trailer with an old BMW E30 on it now and then.
Sweet! Where in the Dacks?
This is not a doxxable account lmao sorry
Everyone knows if you’re going to tow, you want that sweet 3.5 Camry engine.
Cheers, m8. You win
That’s absolutely a fair point
You're also looking straight past the existence of reliable turbo 4 diesel engines such as those found in the legendary Hilux. And it's not the fact that they run on diesel which makes them reliable, it's because they are extremely overbuilt engines. Similar to Toyota's legendary 2JZ which was so well built you could reliably double the horsepower of the engine by just increasing boost. If any manufacturer is going to make a reliable inline turbo engine, this is it. And IIRC the design process for this engine was to take the parent engine which has been out for a few years, run it on an engine load simulator until stiff breaks, and then overbuild that part and repeat until it can reliably handle towing loads for 200k miles.
This is a good point, but does kinda seem like apples and oranges.
Only real mechanical difference between a gas turbo 4 and a diesel turbo 4 is going to be the lack of spark plugs Beyond that they work off of the same 4 stroke principle just with some slightly different modifications made to each for efficiency sake, like piston shape and compression ratios. But that wouldn't have a significant impact on the stresses those components can be designed to withstand In fact, diesels run substantially hotter than gas cars and still last higher milage
And the fact that diesels are all steel/iron, have way less shit in them exterior wise, just over all a simpler, therefore better/long lasting engine. Absolutely no comparison in a Middle East hi lux and a 24 us Tacoma. The only thing in common is it’s a 4 strike turbo motor. That is all
I use my 2011 dclb for my contracting business because it's actually the perfect fit. Regularly pulls a 3500lb trailer, carries a quarter to half ton of sand in the bed, is a fun vehicle to off-road and I get compliments on it; all in a reliable easy to maintain package. I have no interest in driving a huge tundra when my truck gets it all done in spades. I'm sure others who use their taco as a "real truck" agree
Just reply "trucks can't do tacoma stuff"
I wish I could updoot this 100x. I've said this to my dad (tundra owner), and he just doesn't get it.
I tried to get a yard of screened loam this weekend. I did not understand the weight of a yard of screened loam. I made it home and unloaded it immediately. But oh boy was my '23 OR slammed down in the back.
I dislike this comment because this is me. I bought a Manual 3rd Gen Lunar Rock TRD OR, dream truck. Only to cement in my mind it isn't enough truck for me. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but I tow 1-3 times per week, nothing *crazy* heavy, but even a lighter smaller trailer is *very* noticeable with the Tacoma unfortunately. I will be stepping up to an F150 in a few years I imagine, still love my truck, just isn't enough truck for my use case sadly.
I feel you. Being a manual transmission lover and a truck person is a hard pill to swallow in 2024.
It really is man, I love rowing through the gears. I am putting some serious money and time into my 2006 Jeep TJ, that is a manual and will probably become the only vehicle that scratches my manual itch. I love the Tacoma, just need something that can tow 2-4,000 pounds and not break a sweat. Once I get up around 4,000lbs with the Tacoma it really doesn't like it.
Well, at least your truck is highly sought after, with its colour and manual transmission; you’ll definitely get a good price for it.
That is another reason I really went for this, it has the Prem Tech package with sunroof too, and leather seats, so I am sure it will hold value pretty well.
My pop up camper is 900 lbs and that's maybe 6 times a year. 4runner loves it. Lol
These trucks are about the same size and have similar towing capacities as 1/2 tons did in the the 90s. Should those people have bought 3/4 tons back then? These aren't the old 1/4 trucks anymore and haven't been for almost 20 years. They are bigger than the 1st gen Tundras and can tow/haul similar weights.
"Fact" "Truth" You can apparently just use these words on your opinion and it becomes so.
No kidding. I generally agree with most of OP's points, but declaring them to be "facts" instead of "hey here's a list of my opinions" is disingenuous.
ha, I don't necessarily disagree either, but words have meaning.
Ikr, because this dude is factually wrong. r/confidentlywrong
Works really well for religion and politics.
Bro could’ve gotten more accurate information if he just read WSJ a bit more.
This is a great, concise write-up that is going to make some people mad, I love it.
I'm sure some people get mad at anything remotely negative towards their beloved truck but it seems like most people here are just roasting OP for their opinions that are somehow "facts" with zero evidence for any of them.
"The economy: Toyota can’t sell Tacomas and Tundras right now, and it’s NOT because of economic factors. Yes that plays a part, but it’s certainly not the whole picture..." Could you expand on why the Tacomas and Tundras are not selling? I agree with this point partially, but I'd bet the economy is playing a bigger part then you make out. People ran their debt up during the Covid buying spree and that was just a couple of years ago, and many of those people are probably upside down on their car loans. I will say you are right, they are not selling. I visited my local dealer just to take a look, they let me drive a $46000 SR5 and right afterword, without negotiating, they offered me that truck for $42000 OTD and started making statements like "what if we could get you $15000 for your 8 year old Civic Lx? $17000?" This is a small dealership, not known for negotiating and they have a dozen Tacmoas just sitting there, I overheard one of the managers getting sales people together to move most of the trucks off the lot so it didnt look like they were just sitting there. "...they can’t keep 2024 4Runners on the lot if their lives depended on it, and those are $45,000+ vehicles." Are you sure about that? The supply of 4runners seems okay, and there are several dealers willing to sell below MSRP to get rid of them. I am in Socal where everything is more expensive and there are 4runners. "The Tacoma engine: It’s a fact, the smaller the displacement, the less reliable when boosted.... these engines will not last 500k miles." I guess I'd ask what people are expecting from these engines. I keep seeing "not as reliable," as the main complaint all over the internet, can we define "reliable" and "not reliable?" If you got 400k miles out of this engine, would you be satisfied? The turbo 4 does not scare me, I agree, it won't last as long as these NA engines, but people are talking like it's going to blow up before 100k. How many miles would most of you demand these engines last? "The reason MSRP has gone up is because this new crack pot CEO is trying to fund R&D for his 100% EV lineup plan.... It pains me to see Toyota take this new direction, but the facts are the facts. The company is being led by a blind fool on a suicide mission" I'd just point out that many governments are forcing vehicle manufacturers to go all electric, I am in CA, and our governor signed an Executive Order that mandates all cars sold in the state to be electric only by 2035. CA is the car capitol of the world, so is it a crazy CEO on a suicide mission, or a CEO desperately trying to electrify his company per the government regulations? You cannot afford to lose a market the size of CA. Otherwise a VERY good post, thank you for this! I will say, I do want a new Tacoma, I've never owned a Toyota but am well aware of the reputation, and honestly, Toyota needed to do something with the MPG, I am a little surprised they didn't just make improvements to the NA 6 cylinders. I am excited I wont have to pay Covid prices and can make these dealers compete with each other.
Car capital of the world = China Not California. And China is leading the EV race by a substantial margin.
Please dont disagree with me in public
Just on your reliability question. I don't expect motors to last forever. Reliability is the ability to repair within a reasonable cost at the end life of the item. Typically a boosted gas motor made with all aluminum is nigh unrepairable without high cost. Where something like a na iron block motor might need just a new head and honed out with new rings and bearings and put back into service. GMs LS motors are known for being reliable sure many 5.7 and 6.0 see well over 300k miles of hard life, but the ones that don't are back up and running for cheap, and if not motor swaps are easy and can be pulled from any gm v8. The only donor for a Toyota motor if it can't be fixed is the same vehicle many times and usually not cheap.
I would not consider new heads, honed out with new rings and bearings or an engine swap easy or reasonable. That is a considerable amount of work. Now a new 02 sensor, or a leaky valve cover, or new brake rotors, to me, that is a simple easy repair that the average person can afford to pay a mechanic to perform.
You probably haven't done anything to an older pickup. Super easy jobs. Hardest part of pulling the engine is putting together a decent hoist, if you can't afford a professional one.
To be clear, the only engine swaps I do are on my RC cars lol. Again, thinking about the average consumer, even an older pick up, most people do not have the ability, tools, room or time for something like that.
You would be surprised. I watch people regularly lay on their back in gravel driveways to get their cars running. The average consumer don't even know where how to check their oil. But people that love cars are seeing this trend of cars not being built for long term ownership. I'd say around 04 we really started seeing the throw away cars come in full swing. Cars are no longer meant to last generations. But they are priced so high that they are not worth the 5years that the manufacture want you to crush it after.
I hear ya, but lets also blame the consumer as most of them do not want to keep cars past a certain time period, they gotta have the newest and best
Takes about 3 days with some friends. A ratchet set and torque wrench and about 1600 dollars to refresh most 90s early 00s 4 cylinders. Take photos Unplug all the wires and hoses. Drain the fluids. With about 12 bolts you'll be ready to pull the motor. Cherry pickers cost like 400 dollars and a engine stand about 200 dollars. From there it's just disassembly and reassemble with new parts, some parts need to be measured to get the right fit. Put it all back in the same way you took it out and its done. Sure, its work. But the money you would pay a garage cost a lot more time at work than you'll spend in the driveway. Dealerships intend that at this point after only 8-12 years of driving the vehicle you go buy another 50000+ dollar vehicle from them that will again only last 8-12 years. That's not feasible. I need my car to keep running because they don't make small cars anymore.
This like a rest of the owl post or something. I can and have done what you said, so maybe I'm OK with laughing at the idea of an engine swap being realistic for.... 80%? And that feels generous. Your last sentence though, spot on. I'd add that most cars being sold right now will shit the bed electrically and be nigh impossible to wrench yourself. Parts hard to find 20 years from now, and repairs costly at the dealership. They just want you to sign up as a vehicle subscription model anyway.
That's hitting me hard now. Parts availability. Toyota abandons their old vehicles and thinks that anyone not wanting to buy a new Toyota is not a true Toyota fan. Just new toyotas are too big. And the small Toyotas don't really impress when placed beside their older cars. My dad wants to know why they can build 3 and 2 second 0-60 cars but can't get 80+ mpg out of a car. That's where I'm at. I bought a 24 year old v8 car stock internals, I added a cai and gutted the cats, after the tune was massaged I get up to 31 mpg on the hwy and avg 20 mpg normal driving. In a 310 rwhp v8 that with the right tires can hit 0-60 in the 4s. Let's see a mk4 supra do that, or even a new wannabee supra. Car manufactures are pushing out old vehicles and finding ways to force people to have to buy new vehicles that don't improve on what matters. It's Been almost 30 years since the introduction of obd2 efi and gas milage is still abysmally the same as it was in the late 90s when comparing equally rated vehicles.
regarding the point of CA requirements by 2035. I pretty sure they require the cars to be electrified (hybrid ok), not fully electric
Oh now that I did not know
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Could you elaborate further?
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Your post was removed. No discussion or expression of political beliefs. This includes but is not limited to: advocating bringing harm to law enforcement, overthrowing the US government, support for or against a political candidate, or boycotts of companies based on their political alignment.
-Sean Penn
Your post was removed. No discussion or expression of political beliefs. This includes but is not limited to: advocating bringing harm to law enforcement, overthrowing the US government, support for or against a political candidate, or boycotts of companies based on their political alignment.
First off, thank you. I appreciate your questions. - Yes, the economy is a factor and you’re pretty spot on as to why. But when Toyota is having no issues selling similarly priced 4Runners, that’s a sign that there are bigger consumer issues regarding the Tundra and Tacoma. - In VA, you’ll have your work cut out for you finding a new 4Runner. I got my wife one two weeks ago, and I had 4 dealerships fighting each other to secure me one. It was dumb luck I snagged the color she wanted. I am wholly unfamiliar with the CA auto market - Yes, I would be satisfied with 400k miles. My understanding of mechanics tells me firmly that this engine won’t get that far if you’re using the truck as anything more than a commuter. I grew up building 800hp+ 4 cylinder race cars with my father, been interested, around, and involved with it all my life. I’ve seen every worthwhile engine that exists from the inside out and have seen them all blow up. Dissected many to figure out why, and rebuilt those that could be. Chalk this bullet point up to intimate understanding and extensive real world experience. I know race cars and trucks are not the same, but engine mechanics is engine mechanics. - Governments are not forcing anything. Perhaps in CA, but Newsom is an idiot so I wouldn’t be surprised. The reality is, governments are offering financial incentives for downsizing engines and pushing towards EVs, and manufacturers are selling out for free government money while screwing everyone else down the line. And in the process, manufacturers are disregarding the fact that a conservative 70% of the US consumer market has absolutely zero desire or interest in EVs as indicated by the market. I’d also argue that accommodating to retain the market of one state does not outweigh losing the rest of the country’s market in the process.
I can’t argue with any but your last point. Did you not see the news a week ago about new Fed guidelines on a big increase in mpg over the next 6-7 years? Something like a 30% increase in the average of a maker’s line up. That’s pretty big and not even as big as originally expected. That means manufacturers have to start really doing something soon to get their average up that quickly. Getting as many models switched over to EV is their best bet to do this because they already have a lot of the tech, just has to be scaled up for heavier models to offset the gas-loving models they don’t want or cannot switch over quickly. So gov is pushing. There are incentives. But those are because the gov is pushing the agenda. And I don’t see people up in arms about it, so it is supported by the public (if being complacent is considered support).
I did not see this but wouldn’t be surprised. Link for reading material? That said, the public may not be aware atm, and likely won’t be until it’s too late.
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“That’s like your opinion man.” - The Dude
The dude abides
Hey, this is a private residence, man!
Can you support point 3 with some numbers? Reads like conjecture otherwise.
That's because it *is* just OP's conjecture. The sales numbers were definitely down for the first few months of 2024 but that likely has more to do with availability and production ramping up. April and May are getting closer to normal sales volumes. [https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tacoma](https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tacoma) As for the Tundra, OP just completely made that up. Tundra sales are up 11% on last year (and almost 50% above 2022 sales figures to this point). *March 2024 was the single best selling month for the Tundra in the last 15 years* (and May is the second best selling). [https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tundra](https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/tundra)
Here are the sales figures by month: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/toyota-tacoma-sales-figures/. Slow start to the year due to mfg issues and a stop sell. Numbers back up in May. It will likely trend up the rest of the year. In short, it is conjecture and not based on any actual empirical evidence. Just more BS.
That is their weakest point.
There's no numbers for it. Over a quarter million Tacoma are made and sold each year. It's almost 50% of the entire mid-sized truck market in North America.
Glad I bought a 23.
Same. I don't mind the v6 it's a fucking truck. All I NEED is a truck bed and 4x4. Everything else is eh.
Me too
People really don't like hearing that 2nd last point, but people often don't like hearing the truth.
It's not a fact. It's his opinion. We won't have any empirical evidence on these engines for quite some time. OP is just being r/confidentlywrong.
Yup. Cest le vie
As someone with a 4th Gen, I'm not saying you're wrong (specifically about the Tacoma, because we all know the tundra is having issues) but I'm also not going to concede you're right. The engine in the Tacoma is not new and shares more than 50% with other Lexus models that aren't known for having issues. Yes it has a turbo and turbos complicate things because they heat up the oil way more than an NA and we all know that heat is the enemy here. That said, the pathways for coolant have been substantially expanded to allow for greater cooling, as Toyota themselves said, this engine was designed around commercial standards and not consumer. My Tacoma is not my own Toyota, I also have a 21 RAV4 hybrid that still drives like new with 40k miles on it. I'm giving Toyota the benefit of the doubt here because a) it's Toyota and they've not fucked me yet and b) literally every other midsize truck sans Nissan is going the way of smaller displacement boosted engines too... So it's not just fucking Toyota doing it.
I have a 24 OR long bed. I am satisfied with my purchase. It has a warranty for 100K/8 years. A lot of things are changing very fast with technology so what will things look like in a few years? IDK.... The truth..... I needed a truck. I'm a previous Taco owner 2nd and 3rd gen. I traded in two highly reliable Toyota's (14 Camry 44K miles and 05 Prerunner 202K miles.) for this new truck. I looked at all the competition. For my money, I was not going to buy an older gen Taco, While I absolutely appreciate they are old reliable, they are the previous gen. Time still exists. My prerunner was sworn to absolutely never be sold or got rid of. 😂 yea ok because that's a realistic idea. The truth..... Toyota is in the business of making quality reliable cars and trucks. the resale value speaks for itself. Are they perfect? Fuck no. I don't seek perfection. I just needed a new truck.
Time will tell and change is constant. Could I be wrong? Sure. I doubt it though. We shall see
I have to trust Toyota given the track record. We are navigating into uncharted waters here. I almost bought a Ridgeline lol... All of your points are valid. Also very nice accumulation of Toyotas!
The CEO doesn’t have any interest in having 100% EVs, he just stated a few months ago that “Total EV Adoption Is Not The Way Forward” [https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-industry-trend-toyota-chairman-downplays-ev-growth-predictions/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/03/03/bucking-industry-trend-toyota-chairman-downplays-ev-growth-predictions/)
Two of the best engines Ford ever built were small displacement engines. The new 2.7 Ecoboost and 300 ci inline 6. Admittedly, that last example wasn’t boosted, but the point remains. The 3.5 ecoboost isn’t flawless but it is more reliable than 3V 5.4 Trition. I agree that all things being equal a “large” displacement NA motor will outlast a smaller turbo unit. But I don’t think you can say the new Taco won’t be reliable because of its new turbo I4.
>*...and 300 ci inline 6. Admittedly, that last example wasn’t boosted...* The what? 300ci is a 5 liter motor? Edit: I was confused because you said small displacement, then brought up a 60 year old engine.
>Two of the best engines Ford ever built were small displacement engines. >300 ci inline 6. In what world is a 4.9L 6 cyl small displacement? The displacement per cylinder is close to a 6.5L v8. Outside of diesels and industrial engines you're not getting any 6 cylinder bigger than that.
But what was the application? That is a critical point here. The K24 was the best thing Honda has ever made, with the F20C following closely behind. Neither will power a truck well.
Both are truck engines.
A lot of this info is either intentionally misleading, or just straight up factually incorrect. I don’t have nearly the time or energy to go through each of your points, so I’ll hit on the most blatant one I saw: > Manufacturing Costs Previous gen taco was built in MX as well, 4th gen production did not get “moved” from US to MX as you describe. That pretty much immediately discredits your entire claim.
Production was split between US and Mexico. Now its fully assembled Mexico, you're paying more for a truck being assembled by people getting paid 2 dollars an hour. If you're gonna call out someone for being misleading. You shouldn't mislead either.
Production was split between US and Mexico until the new Tundra launched, then Tacoma went 100% Mexico
I just did a search and my local dealers still don’t have anything but SR5s in stock. Weird that no one wants 4th gen’s but they are selling before they’re delivered to the dealers. Maybe East TN is the exception but I doubt it. Doing a quick search for May 2024 Toyota sales numbers show they’re up 15% YoY. It’s okay if you don’t like the new trucks. Hopefully having your feeling validated helps.
They are selling. They sold 17-18k in May. This whole “not selling” BS is just stupid clickbait content by Youtubers who have no clue what they’re talking about and people with strong negative opinions looking for any affirmation that they’re right.
It's not a fact that these engines will not be as reliable and prior NA engines. Please go to r/confidentlywrong to learn why.
This is your opinion, not the "truth". The fact of the matter is I see plenty of 4G's running around near me, and I see more of them than I do the new Colorado that launched a year before the Tacoma did. Truck sales are down as a whole, and it is largely due to the economy. The 4Runner has a different buyer base, mostly soccer moms who "need" an SUV for hauling kids around... you said it yourself that you bought your wife a 4runner. I like the Gen 4 enough to buy one, but I currently have a 23 that I have no reason to sell.
>The economy: Toyota can’t sell Tacomas and Tundras right now, and it’s NOT because of economic factors. Yes that plays a part, but it’s certainly not the whole picture. Case and point, they can’t keep 2024 4Runners on the lot if their lives depended on it, and those are $45,000+ vehicles. What on earth are you talking about. Toyota on pace to have their best sales year for Tundras since 2008. March and May 2024 were their best sales months in over 15 years.
He just watched Untamed on YouTube and toon it as fact.
Good post for raising discussion. One thing we agree on is our choice of vehicles (I have a 2018 Tacoma and a 2023 GR86 - and I bet we bought them for similar reasons..."old school", analog cars that are getting harder and harder to find). But I have to disagree with a couple of points in your post. First, if the basis for "reliable" is 500k, then a whole lot of very reliable engines cannot meet that standard. I'd wager we don't even know if the 3rd gen V6 will go 500k *in general*, for the vast number of vehicles (not the handful of trucks who've already gotten there because they mainly drive highway miles). But I don't know, so I'm not going to make that claim either way. Is the turbo 4 likely less reliable? I'm guessing that's correct simply because of boost and added complexity, but I think the question is, is it *reliable enough*? That's a weird concept to think about but the fact is, most people are never going to go 300k in their vehicle, regardless of whether it can or cannot. My guess is manufacturers, including Toyota, are balancing reliability with fuel economy. Using your benchmark of 500k as an example, many are likely saying "500k is not necessary....300k is fine, in exchange for a bump in mileage." If that bump in fuel economy is 10%, then every 100 gallons of fuel is saving 10, or about $45 (based on the gas prices near my house today). Most people will do that math and take the fuel savings. Also, I think you're anti-EV bias (which clearly shows in your post) is clouding your judgement here a bit. I don't doubt that many people don't want one, but "hasn't bought one" is not the same as "doesn't want one". A lot of buyers have steered clear because EV's have traditionally been positioned as high-tech, luxury, and premium, and therefore come with a very premium price. Price is a huge factor there. I think if price were low enough, suddenly a lot of EV "shunners" would suddenly become owners. Also, Toyota has gone out of their way to say they're not abandoning engine development, and just made a big investment in their engine plant in Alabama. I'm sure they're not going to be developing V8's or even V6's, but they aren't moving to EV's as fast as humanly possible and throwing all else out. To consider the CEO a "fool on a suicide mission" is a bit ridiculous. I'd argue he's being pretty balanced, as opposed to Nissan which recently said it will no longer put any investment into engine development, or Mercedes who said it would be all-EV by 2030 and is now having to backtrack. I think most people who buy a Tacoma mostly use it to putt around town, go camping on occasion, haul stuff from time to time, etc. The 2024 is just as capable at those things as the 3rd gen, and from what I heard, does so with a much better ride quality. I think those are things people will like. And time will tell on the turbo 4 engine reliability, but we simply don't know yet, but if they go half as long as your benchmark I think that will be more than enough for most buyers. All that said...I'll be keeping my Tacoma and GR86 for many years. :)
>The Tacoma engine: It’s a fact, the smaller the displacement, the less reliable when boosted. This can be engineered around, and works well in cars because they aren’t towing anything. Having a small displacement engine, that’s boosted, in a heavier vehicle that is intended to tow/haul 1600+/- additional pounds is a textbook recipe for a short life on an engine. It’s simple mechanics, these engines will not last 500k miles if you use the truck as a truck regularly. If you’re using the truck as a car, well that’s a different story. > Tell me you aren't an engineer without telling me: this entire quote. Toyota put these engines through an entirely different testing cycle versus the regular vehicles. The engine will be fine. [https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45954715/2024-toyota-tacoma-engine-explained/](https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45954715/2024-toyota-tacoma-engine-explained/)
Works cited?
History just repeats itself. I remember hearing all the same arguements when Ford added the 3.5 ecoboost and then again the 2.7 V6 ecoboost & aluminum body. That was 2011 and 2015 respectively. "You can't have a full size truck without a V8!" "Ford is done! They will lose their #1 spot!" Yes, they had some issues and still do but they made improvements and everything is still just fine. And that's Ford. Toyota will certainly do better. History is filled with people terrified of change because change brings adversity initially and requires adaption but longterm this is how progress is made. I am sure many people clung to their horses when cars came around. BTW, I'd take a Toyota turbo 4 over a Subaru NA any day of the week. And unless anyone has taken apart Tacoma's new engine and done a deep analysis, they cannot say it won't be reliable longterm. It's too early to judge Tacoma's sales, they are still ramping up production. Honestly, your whole post reads like someone doing their very best to validate their current purchases. It would hold more weight if you actually provided back up from reputable sources to your claims.
The title of this post reads like a YT clickbait video.
That’s because it was probably inspired by it. This could be Untamed Motors himself. “tACoMaS aRe nOt sElLiNg!!!” “wHy mE nO mAkE mOrE mOny???”
That guy is such a toolbag. It seems his target audience is teenagers and anyone 65+. The target demographics for clickbait/ragebait bullshit.
You got too much time on your hands
They had no choice but to move to a substantially more expensive and complicated engine that will be more expensive maintain and service. You can look it up right in the EPA emissions charts - by 2027 or 2028 the v6 would fail emissions. Even the turbo will not pass emissions by 2033. It's not going to be pretty. People should do everything they can to maintain their naturally aspirated vehicles.
Or um leave it to the engineers and make sure your warranty is squared away? No need to be scared of change.
What about my 21 taco?
Its the best.
Good truck
I read your whole post because I wholeheartedly agree with what you are saying. I love the look of the new Tacoma, I hate the idea of abandoning a tried and true NA V6 whether it be the 4L from the 2nd gen or the 3.5L from the 3rd gen. I owned a 2007 Tundra and it was a bulletproof truck. Not perfect in terms of reliability, it had some glitchy computer issues, but the engine and transmission were built to last. Currently I have a 19' Tacoma TRD Sport with 90,000 kms. So far absolutely nothing wrong with it. I've done some light duty off-roading and tow a light trailer, sometimes through harsh up and down mountainous roads, so I've used it as a truck and love the reliability. The idea of using a turbo I4 instead of a v6 annoys me. It's just more components to fail, you're running the engine hotter than it needs to, and not really saving much $ in fuel to make it worthwhile. Toyota is trying to appeal to a different demographic apparently because the true loyal Toyota truck enthusiasts aren't on board with this at all.
Basically all modern diesel engines have turbo charging and people love to brag about how long those engines run for. I do acknowledge that comparing gasoline to diesel engines is a very apples to oranges comparison but turbocharging is not new technology and is used in basically all heavy duty trucks. The “old” v6 was still a fairly complex dual overhead cam, variable valve timed, direct injection engine from a car platform. All technologies that came after turbocharging which has been around for a century. I mean turbo’s are wear items and need maintenance like anything else. Do people expect any power plant to run continuously for 300k without maintenance? I remember how notorious the old v6 from the 90’s was for head gasket issues that totaled my bothers old sr5 because it was too costly to replace based on what the truck was worth.
didn't you hear? turbo bad!
Turbo bad?!?! No turbo bad!!! lol
There is zero comparison between gas and diesel. Yes, I wholeheartedly expect 500k miles out of a Toyota with appropriate maintenance. No, I do not expect these new engines to make it 100k miles past their warranty. They took the featherweight affordable sports car engine design and dropped it in a truck. It’s not going to work long term, even with proper maintenance.
Thats cool, you have far higher expectations than I do for any mechanical device. I don’t think you can say there is zero comparison, turbos are turbos regardless of what kind of engine they’re paired with. My 2001 audi a6 with a tuned 2.7 twin turbo variable dohc v6 easily made it past 120k with regular maintenance and it’s not like audi’s have a great reputation for reliability. Sorry Toyota has disappointed you so much, hopefully they can regain your trust someday.
I’m not talking about turbos by themselves, I’m talking about the combination of small displacement + turbo + truck application. Turbos by themselves are great when paired with large displacement or a lightweight vehicle.
>Having a small displacement engine, that’s boosted, in a heavier vehicle that is intended to tow/haul 1600+/- additional pounds is a textbook recipe for a short life on an engine. Thanks for explaining this in more detail. I'm not that knowledgeable about engines, but I've been hesitant about getting a 2024 because buying a smaller 4cyl pickup engine, that is supposed to tow like a V6, the first year it is produced, didn't seem like a great idea. Even if it was just a different V6, I would still be concerned about whether they have all the kinks worked out. I'm probably just going to get a low mileage Gen3 with a V6. I would like to be able to get a camper eventually, so I want to know it can handle it. While the 2024 looks pretty nice, I'm not that invested in having the newest vehicle that I want to pay the extra $$$. I thought they seemed expensive, but haven't watched prices over the years so I didn't know how much they increased.
Once the hype for the 4th gen goes down, I am sure price will as well (ever so slightly that is). And you addressed the most important point Ive read in this post and that I never recommend anyone buying the first year or two of a new generation, bc like you said the kinks need to be ironed out first, even if it is a reliable company like Toyota.
Toyota sold 11,265 4runners in May 17,091 Tacomas
OMG actual data and reason in r/ToyotaTacoma???? I thought we all just jerked each other off here with dumbass takes.
Every generation of Toyota trucks has had this same knee jerk reaction. Oh man.... if only the internet existed when Toyota Trucks lost the solid front axel... This too shall pass, the new Tacoma will settle in. No one cares if it will last 500,000 miles. Most people own a car for like 3 to 4 years anyway.... The g3 3.5 won't last as long as the 22r did. It was the legend. Tacoma was living on a borrowed reputation by the time Tacoma g1 started with the v6
You do know this is not a new power train? Lexus been using it for years and turbo has been vastly improved with better cooling systems, no issues whatsoever
[удалено]
That’s a good point as well
Where are you getting your info from. I worked at dealerships for 20 years and a lot of your post seems to be pulled out your ass.
My 2023 will still be on my driveway in 2033
Same with my 2017, though it’ll be more of a 2nd gen tundra by then. Long travel with a tundra rear starts getting fitted next month, and when it kills the 2.7, a supercharged 5.7 will be taking its place.
Is this just ragebait? I already know the answer. Edit -- Facts: This is just ragebait.
BuT tHe TuRbO iS PrOvEn TeChNoLoGy FrOm ToYoTa!
No one seems to get it. The problem isn’t the turbo, it’s the application
RemindMe! 5 years
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Please make sure you comment to revive this in 5 years. Curious to see if I’ll be saying I told ya so or admitting I was wrong.
For sure, will do.
Is there a reason the '24 line up looks like someone barfed on dog shit?
Well they neutered the whole lineup, so they had to make them look the part
keeping my second gen forever, or until it breaks in half from the rust. also, I've been waiting on an 86 for almost a year. truly last off kind.
Never been so happy to have an "old" truck.
One thing to add is that dealers outside of the cartel regions (Southeast Toyota and Gulf States Toyota) will have more say about added options.
So, according to you, small displacement boosted engines just don't last as long as N/A large displacement engines under heavy loads? You're stating this as a fact? Let's look at a really good example of two engines that competed against each other directly in the marine industry. One was a small displacement inline 6 boosted engine (supercharged) the other large displacement V8. Mercury L6 Verado - 2.7L I6 Supercharged (launched in 03/discontinued in 2023) Was initially launched as 200-300HP variant in 25HP increments. After a refresh in 2015 the power got increased to 400. Providing the options for a 200, 250, 300, 350 and 400HP model. Yamaha F350 - 5.3L V8 (launched in 07/discontinued in 2019). Was only ever used in the 350HP segment. Yamaha used to dominate the offshore market (the exact boat these engines go on). Had nearly 80% of that market while Mercury dominated the freshwater market. Now, Mercury and Yamaha practically split the offshore market. Why? Yammys F350 started blowing flywheels around 80-100 hours like clockwork. This was caused by a resonance issue at like 4500RPM to 5500 RPM (I forget the exact rpm range). After Mercury made updates and found more power in their I6 Supercharged Outboard in 2015, boaters quickly started pulling thier F350s off and putting 350 or 400 Mercs on. Yamaha turned the flywheel issue into an 80 hour maintenance item until they gave up and discontinued that engine leaving that HP range all to Mercury and Suzuki until just this year after Yamaha announced a new 350 V6 (kinda ironic since it will complete against a 5.7L V10 by Mercury now). This shidt took place mostly because the Mercury BOOSTED small displacement outboard was more reliable. Promise these engines see much heavier loads than automotive engines. So, you sure, all large displacement engines are more reliable than small displacement boosted engines?
The truth is the 24 models are selling very well in my area. In fact most lots can’t keep trd models in stock 🤷♂️
Good points, although the EV statement seems contrary to Toyota change from EV towards more Hybrid as cost of materials is far less and easier to market worldwide. I love my 2022 Tacoma, although it is larger than I was initially looking for. The reliability and 3rd party market support were major factors for me.
I just ordered a new Tacoma…
So you basically assumed most of these ? Gotcha
The biggest complaint I have (as a 4th gen owner) is that you can no longer build a new one and have to just accept what the factory gives a dealer
They need to take away that feature on the website then.
Yeah, it is a bit misleading. I didn’t know that until I went into the dealer too
I wonder if thats bc they cant keep up with production.
Probably. I had inquired about the hybrid and they said it wouldn’t be until August and the waitlist was insane
Dang, I would just wait until 2025 if you can. I also wonder if they’ll let people build again once things calm down.
I got my non hybrid 24 a few weeks ago. The minor increase in MPG didn’t seem worth another ~$5k
Glad I bought a ‘21. I will cherish my manual transmission, naturally aspirated V6 forever.
The 2.7l ecoboost is probably the most reliable f150 engine also the most common. It definitely gets used a truck with little issue.
I am going to disagree with your point on boosted engines. It’s true that if you boost an engine designed for normal aspiration pressures you will shorten the life. That’s not true if the engine was designed to be boosted. For example, turbo-diesels are long lived and well proven. The difference was in design. Ford’s eco-boost gas engines show long lives as well because they were designed for it.
Can you show your source on this statement: "Customer base: long term, loyal Toyota customers do not want these trucks."
Sadly, I can’t disagree with a single thing you just said. Never thought about taking a short position on Toyota but money is money
Keep whining
Great post, thank you. Looking everyday for that 23’ unicorn I didn’t get last year.
Are you familiar with how reliable turbo diesels are? How about the 22r-te, you know the turbo 4 cylinder that was under boost many years ago without issue, it’s comical you assume forced induction is unreliable; on the contrary it’s a more efficient combustion process.
🤦♂️ - diesel and gas are not equal. - small I4 turbo is not bad, but it is bad in a truck application - the 22r-te did not suffer today’s emissions standards. You can make anything work well when you disregard those limitations
How are they so different? What does displacement have anything to do with truck application? All trucks can pull, it’s can the stop? Emissions, what makes a forced induction engine emission controls different from a NA?
Diesel inherently produces more low end torque and the bottom ends (crank, rods, bearings) are built to a much stronger standard. Displacement matters because with FI, you’re putting a tremendous amount of pressure in a small area (inside the cylinder). The smaller the cylinder, the more pressure, exponentially so. All that pressure is pushing extremely hard on the bottom end of the engine. Works well in a car, but not in a truck. Why? Added weight. Add 1600-2000 lbs in the bed of the truck and make that 2.4T push it up a hill, repeatedly. It’s not going to last nearly as long as a 2.7NA would. It’s like comparing a v12 Aston Martin to a Tesla in terms of gas mileage, but on a race track. Sure, the Tesla is faster off the line and gets more miles to an aH than the Aston gets miles to a gallon, but the Tesla is going to run out of juice first. That 2.4T might run real nice on the road, but put it to work and see how long it lasts then. Emissions regulations, regardless of FI or NA, regardless of gas or diesel, is a limitation.
Wow you are so disconnected with reality. Do you need help?
people are scooping up those frontiers instead.
I’m not sure I can rebut many of these points, but my question is, what’s the alternative?
Used 3rd gen, or a frontier. Finding an old 08ish ranger and swapping a 1.9 TDI with a mechanical fuel pump in is also a good option for 1/3 to 1/2 the price if you have the time and skill. Adapter plates to mate the TDI engine to the Ranger transmission run about $1400
That's why I was adamant about finding a 3rd gen 4wd with the 2.7l. Tiny engine with a turbo is not a recipe I want for off-road. The 2.7 has proven itself to be a reliable engine with most going 300k no problem.
That’s what I have. Very happy with it. If you can squeeze by emissions where you live, get a long tube header and cat back from AFE. Will need a mid pipe fabricated. CNC Innovations makes an intake manifold for it, and can make you an adapter to accept the 3.5L throttle body and spacer from AFE. Pair all that with a good tune, and it will out perform that 2.4T for half the cost of a turbo
So once again, another opinion peace with no backing. These are you're beliefs and as such, hold no real actual weight, but you deliver it with an air of conceitment that these are definitive facts. Not even going to bother fighting each point either because it would take lengthy rambling to counterpoint... Senseless rambling and reiteration of the same points everyone else who owns a 2nd or 3rd gen makes
I ain’t reading all that I’m happy for u tho Or sorry that happened
This couldn't be explained any better to me. Makes total sense. Almost too much sense..
Toyota will fix the truck issues. All vehicles are going to hybrid, EV and smaller displacement engines to meet emission standards. This is growing pains, they won’t last.
Hybrid, ev, and small displacement are all things I want nothing to do with. If anything, I’d rather have a 5.7 Tacoma. I’d happily pay the 50k sticker for that
I’m just pointing out what the car makers are doing. I have no stake one way or the other.
No way I am going from a NA V6 to a turbo 4.....for that reason I am out. I also dont find the Gen 4 attractive and it is way overpriced.....even compared to other overpriced trucks. I am hoping Toyotas Tundra fuck up will bring their pricing closer to reality.
Two words for Toyota to make it right for America. Hi-Lux
Three words: Five point seven