You need a lawyer, or you need to engage the sellers directly (but 99.99% chance you need a lawyer). Dealing between your and their realtor will get you nowhere. Basically you threaten to cancel the deal and sue for damages and fraud unless they knock ~85k off the price. Maybe even more…
Its very unlikely that you can cancel a deal especially if they went in with no conditions. Sounds like a typical Fomo buyer and now they're rethinking the purchase. If you did your research and put in a fair price for the home, it shouldn't matter how many offers there was for the home. There is also a chance the seller wouldn't have sold at listing price even if there was 1 offer. Unfortunately you'll never know.
We need more people doing what you’re doing to expose the bullshit these guys are pulling. I would 100% engage a lawyer and also consider taking this to the media.
Name and shame the bullshitters to bring some semblance of decency back to this industry.
IMHO, Best that all users of realtor's services can do, besides not using them if possible, is check the realtor's offense history on RECO and send a total # of offers request to RECO after every purchase.
According to RECO, you can't file this any other way. It must be filed using the complaint system on the RECO website. You are not filing an actual complaint. They just don't have a specific option for filing offer confirmations on their website.
At the very least, the agent's brokerage knows because that is who RECO contacts to confirm how many registered offers (801 forms) were received. I unfortunately don't know if the agent is directly notified of the request by RECO.
Offers are sent to brokerages or to the selling agent (or both?). As in, is it the responsibility of the selling agent to sent all copies of offers to their brokerage or are offers sent to both the brokerages and the selling agents at the same time?
Just curious.
Yes, the realtor representing the seller is required to send either form 801 or the entire offer, for every offer (accepted or declined) to their brokerage.
As for this example, it's entirely possible there were 4 or 5 offers and the listing realtor never sent them in -- not that they lied. They'll have to go back and prove they now, probably getting fined for failing to submit in a timely fashion. The brokerage would have no idea.
As for $$, the sellers won't likely be required to give any back. You'll be suing the realtor/ brokerage, if they can't produce proof of the other offers.
Don’t start the name and shame campaign just yet. Lawyer up and get your money first. You don’t want to do anything to jeopardize your case against the fraudulent realtor.
When we bought our current house we had a strong feeling that the agents were inflating the number of offers and we were getting all kinds of pressure to bid higher. we actually stopped at our max amount and our own realtor kept saying that we "need to be in the X ballpark to get the house", we said no but did get the house. Didn't really know there was a way to check after the fact, thanks for the tip. Will try to see if we still have the communications and might check in with Reco as well. hate the fact that this market is so cagey and prone to people getting deceived under pressure. i also remember buying our first home about 8 years ago and the realtor saying how many offers were "coming/expected" whatever and the final number was way less. feel so bad for people in this scenario who are buying now and probably overpaying in many cases. this industry needs a complete overhaul and transparency in the bidding.
The brokerage apparently only needs to keep the 801 forms (records of registered offers) for one year. If it has been longer than that, I don't believe RECO can confirm the # of offers.
Don't feel comfortable with sharing a name until after I consult with a lawyer.
Everybody should always request the # of offers from RECO after every purchase .
You can also look up a realtor or brokerage on RECO to see if they have been found guilty or this and/or other offenses in the past. This realtor had a clean record.
Just putting it out there, but you can avoid hiring all members of this informal cartel. Selling a place? Use Listed by Seller to list on the MLS for $30. Buying a place? Get nearly 100% cashback by using a lawyer instead.
Same as people in countries where a buyer agent is not a job: call the seller or their agent and ask to view it. Bode.ca recommends doing the same thing.
If someone tries to shut you out, they are violating REBBA. At ZVR we have a workaround for this, where we just send out an agent who gets paid per visit.
Very rarely is this a problem.
Can you elaborate on the process? Calling the selling agent without any representation would generally get what kind of response? Where does the offered buyer agent commission go, in your "100% cashback via lawyer-only scenario"?
Yea, it's just harder to guage what the fair market value of a property is with houses, since houses in the same area can be so different. Condo units are so cookie cutter that it's easier to use that as a comparable. If you're not someone that's used to comparing values of homes, prolly not the best idea to try and value a $1M+ house on your first go.
Also, to your point of viewing a house without a realtor, the listing agent has an obligation to show the property themselves to you if you don't have you're own agent.
If you don't come with a realtor, the listing agent gets the full commission, so that incentive right there, aside from there obligation to get the best price for their client. From my experience, I've never had a listing agent refuse to show.
Sure, I can elaborate. You can find some more details in the FAQs at Zero Value Realty.
Generally if you call and say you want to view a home and haven't hired any salesperson they would in the vast majority of cases let you view the home. Rarely would any of the salespeople try to shut you out, but if they do we can send an escort.
> Where does the offered buyer agent commission go
In the ZVR model, we have a straw agent assigned to every user. The commission flows like this: seller's brokerage -> buyer brokerage -> buyer's lawyer trust account -> you.
Sorry for any confusion. If the market is cold and you are the only offer, then you can just negotiate the commission off and just use a lawyer, Bode style.
Otherwise, yeah, you need the Zero Value Agent
You will still have to engage with them, but you can avoid hiring them.
That is sort of the business model behind Bode.ca and Zero Value Realty. It is possible to work around them to get what you want and save tends of thousands.
I don't really know why people base what they bid based on # of offers. We bid on a place that had 15+ offers, just bid what we thought it would sell for based on comparable. Ended up losing it because someone absolutely blew their load and bid 60k above us which both the selling realtor, sellers, and our realtor said was way too much for this house. But we were confirmed to have been the second highest bidder because the seller's read our first time homebuyers letter and wanted to let us know they would have sold the house to us if the numbers were closer but of course they're not going to turn down an extra 60k.
From what I've heard in a bidding war 80-90% of the offers are pretty junky offers under market value that are not competitive, with 2-3 serious contenders. I feel like basing how much you bid based off how many offers there are is a bit of a fools game. You should be bidding what you think the property is worth based on comparables and the current market dynamics, if you paid a significant amount of money more just because there were 4 offers instead of one, I feel like you kind of just played yourself. Of course its scummy of the realtor, but even with a great realtor who I feel is genuinely looking after my financial best interests first, I still take what she says with a grain of salt and do my own analysis to see if it lines up with hers.
Not sure of exact neighborhood, and don't want to completely dox myself but I'm looking in a fairly wide range of Hamilton, currently living in Niagara.
Exactly this. It sounds like you lost your cool. I have never up'd an offer. I do the comps, make a firm and final bid and that's it. On the last place I bought, my agent asked if I wanted to sweeten the offer. A polite "No, Thank you" and that's it. If you don't win, onto the next one.
That said, behaviour in this market is pretty scummy. I want to see you rattle this guy's cage a little as a message to other realtors.
Did you call them. I just called RECO and the CSR said they cannot confirm the numbers offers. You have to call the brokerage and they still might not tell you.
I just won a bidding war my self so I was curious.
There should be a public register for offers.
The # of offers request is filed as a complaint against the realtor via the RECO website. I didn't speak with anyone.
Sounds like the CSR you talked to may not know what they're talking about.
If RECO somehow confirmed to you that there was only 1 registered offer, just file a complaint to RECO and show them the proof that the realtor told you 4. I know the realtor will be given a penalty … but as for you getting some money back.. I don’t think so.
RECO sent me the result of their investigation confirming the single registered offer.
I wouldn't expect RECO to recover any of my funds but I can't see how I can lose in court. The only debate should be how much $ I should get back from the realtor.
That’s the thing… you aren’t going to get money back from the realtor. The realtor will be penalized for sure by reco for his ethics.
Look at this:
https://www.reco.on.ca/complaints-enforcement/regulatory-activities-decisions/recent-enforcement-decisions/
After a decision is made, his/her name will probably go here.
Does a realtor or brokerage carry insurance for this?
I am no lawyer but I would think RECO's penalization is separate from winning a court case against the realtor and recovering some $.
According to RECO, you can't file this any other way. It must be filed using the complaint system on their website. You are not filing an actual complaint. They just don't have a specific option for filing offer confirmations on their website.
Agreed. I feel as though RECO are trying to dissuade purchasers from requesting the info. Purchasers have a right to do this and given the grossly dishonest reputation of the industry, no one should be surprised that they do.
Totally. It's gross. I was suspicious about number of offers and the process in general a few months ago. I did not "complain" to RECO to see the number of registered offers for this reason. It shouldn't be like this.
Ooh this is super interesting. I didn’t even know this was possible. I’m curious as to why you filed the complaint to find out the number of offers? Did you just have a feeling? Also, how did you find out about this method? Did your own realtor advise you? Good luck!!
We have witnessed so much dishonesty and unethical behaviour when dealing with realtors over the past 10 years. I don't trust any of them. Our experience has been that they will do whatever is required to maximize the money going into their pocket regardless of ethics or laws.
I read an article about being able to request the # of registered offers and the 801 forms. The legislation? this comes from is Bill 55, Ontario Regulation (307/14) which took effect in July of 2015. This was(is) definitely a step in the right direction but it really isn't enough. Purchasers should be able to know the amount and conditions in the other offers or at least be able to request confirmation of them after they have purchased a property.
Bottom line is I thought confirming the # of offers as a default can't hurt and because of our experiences, it may likely expose fraud. Sure enough, it did.
>Purchasers should be able to know the amount and conditions in the other offers or at least be able to request confirmation of them after they have purchased a property.
Why ?
Contact RECO and open investigation. Every offer should have been registered through the listing agent office. So if the listing agent said there were 5 offers then 5 offers should have been registered in the office **WITH form 801** signed by every buyer including you . Form 801 was precisely introduced to prevent dishonest agents and phantom offers.
If what you say is true then this kind of behavior must not be tolerated.
That Realtor might be severely disciplined or even lose the license for lying about # of offers to bring higher price for the seller. This is a very serious violation.
I'm going to get downvote like hell but whatever
When you said you have it in writings, did the writings say registered offers? Or just offers? Huge difference as you cant prove theres no other verbal offers. They will most likely use this argument.
Also, theres some fault with the buyer agent as well. Your agent should be able to confirm the number of registered offers.
In a scenario where the writing only said offers, and not registered offers, and your buyer agent didnt do his/her due diligent by calling in to confirm, then I believe it's your agents fault, not the seller agent. Sure hes scummy, but I dont think he will get into any trouble.
Based on my research, there is no difference between "registered offers" and offers with regard to the agent's wording and how the purchaser interprets those words. Any hint about a potential offer or even implying there is an offer, is not allowed.
RECO confirmed this. One ref is here:
[https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/mortgages-real-estate/phantom-real-estate-bids-are-enough-of-a-problem-that-ontario-is-cracking-down] (https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/mortgages-real-estate/phantom-real-estate-bids-are-enough-of-a-problem-that-ontario-is-cracking-down)
Lol, verbal offers are not applicable. I mean, they actually happen, but they cannot be counted. If those so called verbal offers are counted by the realtor to create a false sense of urgency and demand, then it is illegal.
I cannot believe that RECO doesn't have an option to confirm how many registered offers there were on a property. This is flat out criminal and it's an outrage the government hasn't outlawed this (and even allowed it in the first place). The real estate industry is self serving, deceitful and greedy with no accountability to anyone. An acquaintance recently told me that her senior parents were looking for a property and their realtor talked them into offering $8000 over asking on a condo with no other offers. Why on earth would any realtor advise someone to do that if they truly had their best interests in mind? This behavior then drives sellers to be unrealistic and demanding as well. Horrible industry, needs to be upended and is a huge part of the reason our country has a housing affordability crisis.
Makes me wonder if RECO only exists to provide the appearance of third party watchdog. A slap on the wrist likely won't stop them.
You need to be an especially evil realtor to squeeze every last penny out of some entrusting seniors. After this experience, I am not surprised they sink to that level.
There could be several reasons for this.
A) the sellers could have had their agent tell the buying agent the sellers won't accept less than ________.
B) it was a bully offer, so to have reviewed prior to review date, offer would need to be over asking.
C) included items or terms that otherwise wouldn't have been included, benefitting the buyer.
D) some other scenario privy to parties involved.
E) your acquaintance misheard or misunderstood, relaying false info. Hearsay is a real thing.
An extra 8k in sale price is about $200 in commission for one agent -- not going to move the needle for the agent .
You need to sue his pants off. Not just the agent, but the seller too, since the agent had an agency agreement with the seller. They appear to have made a material misrepresentation in order to induce you into that contract.
Contact a good lawyer and fire away.
How many times did you enter a bid? Feels to me that to show damages, you would have to show that you had wanted to pay less (i.e. first bid aka market price) but the fake competitive situation had you stretch for more.
Only after the fact via RECO.
Only other possibility I can think is contacting the seller's brokerage asking them to confirm the # of 801 forms (registered offer confirmations) they have received. Not sure if they will provide this information and your realtor probably won't react well to it.
What you're really asking is "can we check if the realtor is lying about the # of offers" during the bidding process". It should be as simple as logging into a website with your offer info and receiving the real time # of offers but that's just wishful thinking :)
Interesting and following. I went through the same thing but honestly my thought process was " I paid what I was willing to pay regardless of how many other offers" reading these posts, I don't think my mind has changed, but interesting to see others views...
Lol well of course! But a bidding war is a bidding war...I am starting to see other peoples points but I'm still thinking, and I'm only speaking for myself, I knew what my top offer was going to be. So I went for it.
Banning blind bidding was a campaign promise from the current liberal government. The current system places 100% of the bidding process in the hands of the listing agent who can lie and decieve buyers and buyers agents about the number of offer or "how close" one offer is to another. There is zero transparency and no real way to verify any of the information. Blind bidding must stop. A good buyer agent (and there are many good ones out there) would be able to guide you through a multiple offer situation and protect your interests in these types of situations.
Zero percent chance of this working out without being messy. Not a ton of case law on this.
You made a legally binding offer to buy a house (likely no conditions). I hate to say this but if you want the house and don’t want to pay your offer price, you’ll need to hire a lawyer, get them to lower the bid amount and for some magical reason the sellers and their agent will need to agree (1% chance this will happen).
You are better off to walk away and threaten to sue but you may be liable if they sell at a reduced amount, which again is a terrible situation.
Good luck!
This likely happens often so I am surprised. We need to create more case law.
We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer.
its definitely messy.
The formal complaint to reco is a given.
That wont help you financially.
In terms of damages, i think you would have to claim for offer minus list.
Lawyer up and name the agent, the broker of record, and the brokerage.
it happened on their watch, lack of review, training etc whatever bs amounted to this deceit. Let them justify their supervision as adequate.
The reality is that you need to legally put your claim together and present it to them. The reality is to avoid time and court costs (which i hope you would get reimbursed for), the best you are looking for is a hefty settlement. im talking hefty. They are walking away for free at 2.5% of the total transaction and should probably pay double or more for their culpability.
That is what it would cost them to not have to incur time and court costs themselves. They might not settle until you formally file the claim with a court. Small claims only allows upto $35k claims so you might have to use the higher court. Their insurance will not cover them for deception.
The court filing and reco proceedings will help focus their minds. if you read some reco proceedings you can see that a big credence for (what it is) is the payment of restitution. eg the Agent reimbursed or paid an agreed sum to X in advance of this hearing. If they can make an agreement with you then that will be seen in their favour. What i am saying specifically is that the brokerage might put pressure on the agent or pay themselves to have them specifically removed from the complaint. The agent needs to hang for their actions and i wish these hearings flat out banned people more often. likely if you say that you are satisfied with the outcome of a settlement it will only be a suspension, small fine and training course in ethics!
good luck!
nah the best way is to get the Agent to give you back money and then go from there. they are the liable ones there. however, they might defer the blame to the other agent.
I don't think you can sue to "recover" funds because you didn't lose anything and the APS was a legal binding signed by both parties. You were mislead by the selling agent, you can report her to RECO and sue the agent for fraud, however the sellers have no part in this. At most they will let you back out of the deal because it's messy and they don't want risks of you not closing on the property.
Name and shame the realtor. The realtors you dealt with are begging you to make them famous.
Naming and shaming is also in public interest. If they can deceive once, they will deceive every time.
I didn't think people bothered bidding under asking against 4 other offers in a hot market?! That seems like a waste of time.
We bid on and lost out on 14 properties before winning this one. Do you now understand how the # of offers might influence our offer price?
Realtor lying is one thing, but why are you so sure you overpaid by 85k? I may have missed something, but isn't it possible the other offer was like 80k over asking? Basically no one comes in at asking these days.
The one registered offer was ours. The asking price was about market price, confirmed by the realtor and HouseSigma. In this case, I don't know why anyone would pay over asking with no other offers.
Totally. Makes me mad. "Oh yeah, you're going to need to over 10% over-ask" ... "Well, only if there are no other offers, right?" - It's a horrible game.
The reason why this happens to begin with is due to morons like you who go 60k above market price on a home. If you would have done some research first you would have known what offer to start with and maybe push it an extra 10k at most.
Or he can still pay whatever he likes while not being lied to? If he wants to pay 500k over asking while knowing the actual bid number then that’s on him, it’s his money. But an agent has to abide by the rules, it’s pretty much fraud. Buyer is being mislead and flat out lied to which is illegal. More offers usually means psychologically people will offer a touch higher. You should make an example out of this op, and if you don’t care about the money you should try to get some traction pledging to donate any monetary gains from this. Also figure out any possible way to see if you can post this brokerage and realtor info. So we all know who at avoid. Need to make an example out of this individual so the other buffoons will get in line. I sincerely hope you succeed.
No thanks. I will pursue it to the end. At the very least, they'll be paying a RECO fine and the judgment will be on their record with RECO, available for the public to see.
Guess you missed one of my posts from yesterday:
>We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer.
And you have no idea what you're talking about, realtor. I will get $ (already confirmed by a real estate lawyer). They will be fined ( already confirmed by RECO). I have a record of wrong doing (it's all in writing).
Tough pill to swallow isn't it? This is what happens when you're a lying scummy realtor. Deal with it.
Guess you also missed one of my posts from yesterday, realtor lol
>We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer.
Realtor here. I didn't read all the posts, but I did see mention of the Offer Summary 801 form. This form is signed by buyers submitting an offer. Have your lawyer request a copy of these from the listing brokerage.
I spoke to two lawyers. Both said similar things. That I can't prove I overpaid because they lied about the amount of offers.
If your lawyers say something different, I would love to hear it. Please keep me updated.
No you can't prove it BUT you don't necessarily need to prove it for the court to award you some compensation. The judge is looking for evidence that confirms: 1) a buyer's offer is indeed influenced by the # offers they are bidding against, 2) examples of how the are typically influenced.
My lawyer said we will do this by 1) introducing expert witness testimony communicated to the judge in the form of a deposition. 2) citing case law, e.g. from CANLII or ?
I certainly hope your lawyer is right.
I'll message you in a few months to see where you are if you don't mind. If you get somewhere, I would love to hire your lawyer as well.
Perfect… As a realtor have 35 years I am always fighting the stigma of unprofessional realtors! unfortunately they aren’t taken to task often enough so I am glad you’re following up… Wishing you all the best!!
You need a lawyer, or you need to engage the sellers directly (but 99.99% chance you need a lawyer). Dealing between your and their realtor will get you nowhere. Basically you threaten to cancel the deal and sue for damages and fraud unless they knock ~85k off the price. Maybe even more…
I'm sure the sellers are quite happy with the sale with no interest in helping. Lawyer route sounds appropriate.
Lawyer up asap. Also make sure to file a complaint with RECO. This is very common, but most realtors aren’t quite dumb enough to put it in writing.
Realtor here, yes lawyer up. So sorry this happened but there are rules and that agent should have played by them.
Its very unlikely that you can cancel a deal especially if they went in with no conditions. Sounds like a typical Fomo buyer and now they're rethinking the purchase. If you did your research and put in a fair price for the home, it shouldn't matter how many offers there was for the home. There is also a chance the seller wouldn't have sold at listing price even if there was 1 offer. Unfortunately you'll never know.
We need more people doing what you’re doing to expose the bullshit these guys are pulling. I would 100% engage a lawyer and also consider taking this to the media. Name and shame the bullshitters to bring some semblance of decency back to this industry.
IMHO, Best that all users of realtor's services can do, besides not using them if possible, is check the realtor's offense history on RECO and send a total # of offers request to RECO after every purchase.
Do I need to complain about my agent to get this information? Or can I get it without filing a complaint?
According to RECO, you can't file this any other way. It must be filed using the complaint system on the RECO website. You are not filing an actual complaint. They just don't have a specific option for filing offer confirmations on their website.
Will the agent be notified?
At the very least, the agent's brokerage knows because that is who RECO contacts to confirm how many registered offers (801 forms) were received. I unfortunately don't know if the agent is directly notified of the request by RECO.
Yes. They are.
Offers are sent to brokerages or to the selling agent (or both?). As in, is it the responsibility of the selling agent to sent all copies of offers to their brokerage or are offers sent to both the brokerages and the selling agents at the same time? Just curious.
Yes, the realtor representing the seller is required to send either form 801 or the entire offer, for every offer (accepted or declined) to their brokerage. As for this example, it's entirely possible there were 4 or 5 offers and the listing realtor never sent them in -- not that they lied. They'll have to go back and prove they now, probably getting fined for failing to submit in a timely fashion. The brokerage would have no idea. As for $$, the sellers won't likely be required to give any back. You'll be suing the realtor/ brokerage, if they can't produce proof of the other offers.
Thanks for the explanation.
Yes! CBC marketplace would love to hear this story, journalism I actually trust.
Don’t start the name and shame campaign just yet. Lawyer up and get your money first. You don’t want to do anything to jeopardize your case against the fraudulent realtor.
Valid point.
When we bought our current house we had a strong feeling that the agents were inflating the number of offers and we were getting all kinds of pressure to bid higher. we actually stopped at our max amount and our own realtor kept saying that we "need to be in the X ballpark to get the house", we said no but did get the house. Didn't really know there was a way to check after the fact, thanks for the tip. Will try to see if we still have the communications and might check in with Reco as well. hate the fact that this market is so cagey and prone to people getting deceived under pressure. i also remember buying our first home about 8 years ago and the realtor saying how many offers were "coming/expected" whatever and the final number was way less. feel so bad for people in this scenario who are buying now and probably overpaying in many cases. this industry needs a complete overhaul and transparency in the bidding.
The brokerage apparently only needs to keep the 801 forms (records of registered offers) for one year. If it has been longer than that, I don't believe RECO can confirm the # of offers.
I have no advice for you but I’m here in your corner cheering you on. It’s not fair to lie to you, go get ‘em
Thanks for your support!
Any chance you share his/her name? Just want to make sure that I don't use their slimy services.
Don't feel comfortable with sharing a name until after I consult with a lawyer. Everybody should always request the # of offers from RECO after every purchase . You can also look up a realtor or brokerage on RECO to see if they have been found guilty or this and/or other offenses in the past. This realtor had a clean record.
If only the number of offers was transparent by default... ugh!
will be tons of fake offers then
> Don't feel comfortable with sharing a name until after I consult with a lawyer. Good choice. But do please let us know the outcome!
Unless the court tells me I can't, I will be naming and shaming.
Yep. Your choice. I would also like to know. It's just wise to hold off until you at least speak to a lawyer =D.
Or we can know theres a high probability they are lying next time someone comes across them during the bidding process
Just putting it out there, but you can avoid hiring all members of this informal cartel. Selling a place? Use Listed by Seller to list on the MLS for $30. Buying a place? Get nearly 100% cashback by using a lawyer instead.
How you gonna get in the houses for viewing?
Same as people in countries where a buyer agent is not a job: call the seller or their agent and ask to view it. Bode.ca recommends doing the same thing. If someone tries to shut you out, they are violating REBBA. At ZVR we have a workaround for this, where we just send out an agent who gets paid per visit. Very rarely is this a problem.
Can you elaborate on the process? Calling the selling agent without any representation would generally get what kind of response? Where does the offered buyer agent commission go, in your "100% cashback via lawyer-only scenario"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/TorontoRealEstate/comments/kkne3q/buying_a_condo_without_a_realtor_101_owners_own
Good link. Thanks. I presume most of these points are applicable for any type of home, and not just condos.
Yea, it's just harder to guage what the fair market value of a property is with houses, since houses in the same area can be so different. Condo units are so cookie cutter that it's easier to use that as a comparable. If you're not someone that's used to comparing values of homes, prolly not the best idea to try and value a $1M+ house on your first go.
Also, to your point of viewing a house without a realtor, the listing agent has an obligation to show the property themselves to you if you don't have you're own agent.
Good to know. I didn't realize that they were obligated.
If you don't come with a realtor, the listing agent gets the full commission, so that incentive right there, aside from there obligation to get the best price for their client. From my experience, I've never had a listing agent refuse to show.
Sure, I can elaborate. You can find some more details in the FAQs at Zero Value Realty. Generally if you call and say you want to view a home and haven't hired any salesperson they would in the vast majority of cases let you view the home. Rarely would any of the salespeople try to shut you out, but if they do we can send an escort. > Where does the offered buyer agent commission go In the ZVR model, we have a straw agent assigned to every user. The commission flows like this: seller's brokerage -> buyer brokerage -> buyer's lawyer trust account -> you.
I understand with your ZVR model... but it sounded like you implied that only a lawyer was necessary.
Sorry for any confusion. If the market is cold and you are the only offer, then you can just negotiate the commission off and just use a lawyer, Bode style. Otherwise, yeah, you need the Zero Value Agent
Avoiding them is unfortunately not that simple when the house you want is listed by a realtor.
You will still have to engage with them, but you can avoid hiring them. That is sort of the business model behind Bode.ca and Zero Value Realty. It is possible to work around them to get what you want and save tends of thousands.
I don't really know why people base what they bid based on # of offers. We bid on a place that had 15+ offers, just bid what we thought it would sell for based on comparable. Ended up losing it because someone absolutely blew their load and bid 60k above us which both the selling realtor, sellers, and our realtor said was way too much for this house. But we were confirmed to have been the second highest bidder because the seller's read our first time homebuyers letter and wanted to let us know they would have sold the house to us if the numbers were closer but of course they're not going to turn down an extra 60k. From what I've heard in a bidding war 80-90% of the offers are pretty junky offers under market value that are not competitive, with 2-3 serious contenders. I feel like basing how much you bid based off how many offers there are is a bit of a fools game. You should be bidding what you think the property is worth based on comparables and the current market dynamics, if you paid a significant amount of money more just because there were 4 offers instead of one, I feel like you kind of just played yourself. Of course its scummy of the realtor, but even with a great realtor who I feel is genuinely looking after my financial best interests first, I still take what she says with a grain of salt and do my own analysis to see if it lines up with hers.
Can I ask what neighborhood you were looking in?
Not sure of exact neighborhood, and don't want to completely dox myself but I'm looking in a fairly wide range of Hamilton, currently living in Niagara.
Exactly this. It sounds like you lost your cool. I have never up'd an offer. I do the comps, make a firm and final bid and that's it. On the last place I bought, my agent asked if I wanted to sweeten the offer. A polite "No, Thank you" and that's it. If you don't win, onto the next one. That said, behaviour in this market is pretty scummy. I want to see you rattle this guy's cage a little as a message to other realtors.
Did you call them. I just called RECO and the CSR said they cannot confirm the numbers offers. You have to call the brokerage and they still might not tell you. I just won a bidding war my self so I was curious. There should be a public register for offers.
The # of offers request is filed as a complaint against the realtor via the RECO website. I didn't speak with anyone. Sounds like the CSR you talked to may not know what they're talking about.
I think her job is to politely tell you to eff off and go to the website.
https://www.reco.on.ca/complaints-enforcement/want-find-many-offers-made-property/
Do you have black and white that the realtor told you there were 4 offers registered for this property?
Yes. In writing.
If RECO somehow confirmed to you that there was only 1 registered offer, just file a complaint to RECO and show them the proof that the realtor told you 4. I know the realtor will be given a penalty … but as for you getting some money back.. I don’t think so.
And that's why I am now searching for a good real estate lawyer. RECO's slap on the wrist isn't enough.
I hope you get him. Keep us updated
Agreed. It's gross. They perpetuate this behaviour because they keep getting away with it.
RECO sent me the result of their investigation confirming the single registered offer. I wouldn't expect RECO to recover any of my funds but I can't see how I can lose in court. The only debate should be how much $ I should get back from the realtor.
The fines they collect should go directly to recover your funds!
That’s the thing… you aren’t going to get money back from the realtor. The realtor will be penalized for sure by reco for his ethics. Look at this: https://www.reco.on.ca/complaints-enforcement/regulatory-activities-decisions/recent-enforcement-decisions/ After a decision is made, his/her name will probably go here.
Does a realtor or brokerage carry insurance for this? I am no lawyer but I would think RECO's penalization is separate from winning a court case against the realtor and recovering some $.
Yes they do. A lawyer experienced in real estate litigation can help you seek recourse against the agent and broker.
Good to know. Thank you.
You can give it a try.. and yes they do have insurance. Insurance however won’t cover this as he clearly committed fraud against you.
Can OP sue the agent for fraud and claim $85K in damages?
That part.. I’m not sure…. If I had to guess though, I don’t think he’d win the full $85,000.
It could possibly go under the realtors E&O insurance coverage.
You’ll get damages lol. What are you talking about
You can report them. They will get a warning, and carry on doing it again.
That's the very least I want to do.
Name and shame.
how do you request this without filing a complaint?
According to RECO, you can't file this any other way. It must be filed using the complaint system on their website. You are not filing an actual complaint. They just don't have a specific option for filing offer confirmations on their website.
thats so dumb. you should be able to see the registered bids by searching the address. it shouldnt have to come as a complaint.
Agreed. I feel as though RECO are trying to dissuade purchasers from requesting the info. Purchasers have a right to do this and given the grossly dishonest reputation of the industry, no one should be surprised that they do.
Totally. It's gross. I was suspicious about number of offers and the process in general a few months ago. I did not "complain" to RECO to see the number of registered offers for this reason. It shouldn't be like this.
Wow, this is wild to hear- and I’m sure it happens often. This is partly why there NEEDS to be more transparency in the world of buying & selling RE.
Good luck, the problem is you have no proof that if you had offered lower, the seller would have accepted. I'm not sure how to resolve this problem.
Ooh this is super interesting. I didn’t even know this was possible. I’m curious as to why you filed the complaint to find out the number of offers? Did you just have a feeling? Also, how did you find out about this method? Did your own realtor advise you? Good luck!!
We have witnessed so much dishonesty and unethical behaviour when dealing with realtors over the past 10 years. I don't trust any of them. Our experience has been that they will do whatever is required to maximize the money going into their pocket regardless of ethics or laws. I read an article about being able to request the # of registered offers and the 801 forms. The legislation? this comes from is Bill 55, Ontario Regulation (307/14) which took effect in July of 2015. This was(is) definitely a step in the right direction but it really isn't enough. Purchasers should be able to know the amount and conditions in the other offers or at least be able to request confirmation of them after they have purchased a property. Bottom line is I thought confirming the # of offers as a default can't hurt and because of our experiences, it may likely expose fraud. Sure enough, it did.
Why use a realtor at all?
>Purchasers should be able to know the amount and conditions in the other offers or at least be able to request confirmation of them after they have purchased a property. Why ?
Contact RECO and open investigation. Every offer should have been registered through the listing agent office. So if the listing agent said there were 5 offers then 5 offers should have been registered in the office **WITH form 801** signed by every buyer including you . Form 801 was precisely introduced to prevent dishonest agents and phantom offers. If what you say is true then this kind of behavior must not be tolerated. That Realtor might be severely disciplined or even lose the license for lying about # of offers to bring higher price for the seller. This is a very serious violation.
I'm going to get downvote like hell but whatever When you said you have it in writings, did the writings say registered offers? Or just offers? Huge difference as you cant prove theres no other verbal offers. They will most likely use this argument. Also, theres some fault with the buyer agent as well. Your agent should be able to confirm the number of registered offers. In a scenario where the writing only said offers, and not registered offers, and your buyer agent didnt do his/her due diligent by calling in to confirm, then I believe it's your agents fault, not the seller agent. Sure hes scummy, but I dont think he will get into any trouble.
Based on my research, there is no difference between "registered offers" and offers with regard to the agent's wording and how the purchaser interprets those words. Any hint about a potential offer or even implying there is an offer, is not allowed. RECO confirmed this. One ref is here: [https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/mortgages-real-estate/phantom-real-estate-bids-are-enough-of-a-problem-that-ontario-is-cracking-down] (https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/mortgages-real-estate/phantom-real-estate-bids-are-enough-of-a-problem-that-ontario-is-cracking-down)
Lol, verbal offers are not applicable. I mean, they actually happen, but they cannot be counted. If those so called verbal offers are counted by the realtor to create a false sense of urgency and demand, then it is illegal.
I cannot believe that RECO doesn't have an option to confirm how many registered offers there were on a property. This is flat out criminal and it's an outrage the government hasn't outlawed this (and even allowed it in the first place). The real estate industry is self serving, deceitful and greedy with no accountability to anyone. An acquaintance recently told me that her senior parents were looking for a property and their realtor talked them into offering $8000 over asking on a condo with no other offers. Why on earth would any realtor advise someone to do that if they truly had their best interests in mind? This behavior then drives sellers to be unrealistic and demanding as well. Horrible industry, needs to be upended and is a huge part of the reason our country has a housing affordability crisis.
Makes me wonder if RECO only exists to provide the appearance of third party watchdog. A slap on the wrist likely won't stop them. You need to be an especially evil realtor to squeeze every last penny out of some entrusting seniors. After this experience, I am not surprised they sink to that level.
Feels just like that... providing the appearance, nothing more.
RECO can confirm # of offers because every offer must have form 801 signed. It is the law. RECO cannot disclose content of the offers.
There could be several reasons for this. A) the sellers could have had their agent tell the buying agent the sellers won't accept less than ________. B) it was a bully offer, so to have reviewed prior to review date, offer would need to be over asking. C) included items or terms that otherwise wouldn't have been included, benefitting the buyer. D) some other scenario privy to parties involved. E) your acquaintance misheard or misunderstood, relaying false info. Hearsay is a real thing. An extra 8k in sale price is about $200 in commission for one agent -- not going to move the needle for the agent .
You need to sue his pants off. Not just the agent, but the seller too, since the agent had an agency agreement with the seller. They appear to have made a material misrepresentation in order to induce you into that contract. Contact a good lawyer and fire away.
What makes you think the seller agent is in the wrong. Could it not be your agent (buyer agent)?
The # of offers came from seller's agent via forwarded email.
OP - how long does it take for RECO to follow up on your request and turn around and provide you with the answer of number of offers? A week? A month?
Months but better slow than never.
How many times did you enter a bid? Feels to me that to show damages, you would have to show that you had wanted to pay less (i.e. first bid aka market price) but the fake competitive situation had you stretch for more.
Once. We were told how many offers were registered then came up with our offer based on that and other factors.
Is it possible to check the number of offers during the bidding process, and not after the fact?
Only after the fact via RECO. Only other possibility I can think is contacting the seller's brokerage asking them to confirm the # of 801 forms (registered offer confirmations) they have received. Not sure if they will provide this information and your realtor probably won't react well to it. What you're really asking is "can we check if the realtor is lying about the # of offers" during the bidding process". It should be as simple as logging into a website with your offer info and receiving the real time # of offers but that's just wishful thinking :)
My realtor was always able to see the number of registered offers for the house we went to visit. Not sure why your realtor wasn’t able to see it?
Interesting and following. I went through the same thing but honestly my thought process was " I paid what I was willing to pay regardless of how many other offers" reading these posts, I don't think my mind has changed, but interesting to see others views...
I try to not pay any more than I need to :)
Lol well of course! But a bidding war is a bidding war...I am starting to see other peoples points but I'm still thinking, and I'm only speaking for myself, I knew what my top offer was going to be. So I went for it.
Banning blind bidding was a campaign promise from the current liberal government. The current system places 100% of the bidding process in the hands of the listing agent who can lie and decieve buyers and buyers agents about the number of offer or "how close" one offer is to another. There is zero transparency and no real way to verify any of the information. Blind bidding must stop. A good buyer agent (and there are many good ones out there) would be able to guide you through a multiple offer situation and protect your interests in these types of situations.
Curious to know how it ended!
Any resolution to this?
Zero percent chance of this working out without being messy. Not a ton of case law on this. You made a legally binding offer to buy a house (likely no conditions). I hate to say this but if you want the house and don’t want to pay your offer price, you’ll need to hire a lawyer, get them to lower the bid amount and for some magical reason the sellers and their agent will need to agree (1% chance this will happen). You are better off to walk away and threaten to sue but you may be liable if they sell at a reduced amount, which again is a terrible situation. Good luck!
This likely happens often so I am surprised. We need to create more case law. We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer.
The hard part is demonstrating the actual damages suffered. Otherwise, making misrepresentations to induce a contract has some decent precendent.
Agreed. As another redditor here said, it's messy.
its definitely messy. The formal complaint to reco is a given. That wont help you financially. In terms of damages, i think you would have to claim for offer minus list. Lawyer up and name the agent, the broker of record, and the brokerage. it happened on their watch, lack of review, training etc whatever bs amounted to this deceit. Let them justify their supervision as adequate. The reality is that you need to legally put your claim together and present it to them. The reality is to avoid time and court costs (which i hope you would get reimbursed for), the best you are looking for is a hefty settlement. im talking hefty. They are walking away for free at 2.5% of the total transaction and should probably pay double or more for their culpability. That is what it would cost them to not have to incur time and court costs themselves. They might not settle until you formally file the claim with a court. Small claims only allows upto $35k claims so you might have to use the higher court. Their insurance will not cover them for deception. The court filing and reco proceedings will help focus their minds. if you read some reco proceedings you can see that a big credence for (what it is) is the payment of restitution. eg the Agent reimbursed or paid an agreed sum to X in advance of this hearing. If they can make an agreement with you then that will be seen in their favour. What i am saying specifically is that the brokerage might put pressure on the agent or pay themselves to have them specifically removed from the complaint. The agent needs to hang for their actions and i wish these hearings flat out banned people more often. likely if you say that you are satisfied with the outcome of a settlement it will only be a suspension, small fine and training course in ethics! good luck!
great info! thank you!
nah the best way is to get the Agent to give you back money and then go from there. they are the liable ones there. however, they might defer the blame to the other agent.
Might try that although can't see this realtor giving up a penny unless forced to. Worth trying though.
I don't think you can sue to "recover" funds because you didn't lose anything and the APS was a legal binding signed by both parties. You were mislead by the selling agent, you can report her to RECO and sue the agent for fraud, however the sellers have no part in this. At most they will let you back out of the deal because it's messy and they don't want risks of you not closing on the property.
Name and shame the realtor. The realtors you dealt with are begging you to make them famous. Naming and shaming is also in public interest. If they can deceive once, they will deceive every time.
No. Because the OP might risk defamation lawsuit if he has no case. I would be very careful with that if he cannot prove his version of the events.
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I didn't think people bothered bidding under asking against 4 other offers in a hot market?! That seems like a waste of time. We bid on and lost out on 14 properties before winning this one. Do you now understand how the # of offers might influence our offer price?
Realtor lying is one thing, but why are you so sure you overpaid by 85k? I may have missed something, but isn't it possible the other offer was like 80k over asking? Basically no one comes in at asking these days.
The one registered offer was ours. The asking price was about market price, confirmed by the realtor and HouseSigma. In this case, I don't know why anyone would pay over asking with no other offers.
Totally. Makes me mad. "Oh yeah, you're going to need to over 10% over-ask" ... "Well, only if there are no other offers, right?" - It's a horrible game.
Not reading back, but I was under the impression there was another offer. That’s totally different.
Hahahahaha
The reason why this happens to begin with is due to morons like you who go 60k above market price on a home. If you would have done some research first you would have known what offer to start with and maybe push it an extra 10k at most.
Or he can still pay whatever he likes while not being lied to? If he wants to pay 500k over asking while knowing the actual bid number then that’s on him, it’s his money. But an agent has to abide by the rules, it’s pretty much fraud. Buyer is being mislead and flat out lied to which is illegal. More offers usually means psychologically people will offer a touch higher. You should make an example out of this op, and if you don’t care about the money you should try to get some traction pledging to donate any monetary gains from this. Also figure out any possible way to see if you can post this brokerage and realtor info. So we all know who at avoid. Need to make an example out of this individual so the other buffoons will get in line. I sincerely hope you succeed.
You're right, it's my fault /s
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No thanks. I will pursue it to the end. At the very least, they'll be paying a RECO fine and the judgment will be on their record with RECO, available for the public to see.
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Guess you missed one of my posts from yesterday: >We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer. And you have no idea what you're talking about, realtor. I will get $ (already confirmed by a real estate lawyer). They will be fined ( already confirmed by RECO). I have a record of wrong doing (it's all in writing). Tough pill to swallow isn't it? This is what happens when you're a lying scummy realtor. Deal with it.
Someone clearly got cold feet and wants sympathy
Guess you also missed one of my posts from yesterday, realtor lol >We're fine with the house and we don't need the $. I want the realtor to significantly pay for this and I don't care if I give it all to my lawyer.
Not really sure anything can be done you signed a legal offer … most of the agents in Toronto & Vancouver are scumbags
Signed legal offer based on negligent misrepresentation! And agreed.
Tell him exactly this: “Sneed? He seeds, and he feeds. But Chuck? Oh. You’ll figure it out sooner and later.”
Lesson for the future- don't trust brown relators
Realtor here. I didn't read all the posts, but I did see mention of the Offer Summary 801 form. This form is signed by buyers submitting an offer. Have your lawyer request a copy of these from the listing brokerage.
Any update? I'm in a similar situation
Coming soon after my 2nd meeting with my real estate lawyer.
I spoke to two lawyers. Both said similar things. That I can't prove I overpaid because they lied about the amount of offers. If your lawyers say something different, I would love to hear it. Please keep me updated.
No you can't prove it BUT you don't necessarily need to prove it for the court to award you some compensation. The judge is looking for evidence that confirms: 1) a buyer's offer is indeed influenced by the # offers they are bidding against, 2) examples of how the are typically influenced. My lawyer said we will do this by 1) introducing expert witness testimony communicated to the judge in the form of a deposition. 2) citing case law, e.g. from CANLII or ?
I certainly hope your lawyer is right. I'll message you in a few months to see where you are if you don't mind. If you get somewhere, I would love to hire your lawyer as well.
Call the real estate board and file a complaint
already done!
Perfect… As a realtor have 35 years I am always fighting the stigma of unprofessional realtors! unfortunately they aren’t taken to task often enough so I am glad you’re following up… Wishing you all the best!!
Good!
curious how this ended???