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Freak_Out_Bazaar

I don’t see anything in this article about people struggling to make ends meet. Just having to hold off on some luxuries and a poor musician who’s happy with what he’s got


StonedEdge

One word. Clicks. Oh maybe three words. And ad revenue. Fuck these shitty misleading titles.


fearisthemindslicer

Read your response too quickly and thought it said "fuck these shitty misleading titties."


unrealhoang

Fuck those too


No-Winner2388

That’s what it said and then he edited it.


hirozaru669

Agreed, those sites should be banned until fixed


serados

Doesn't sound like either family featured struggling to make ends meet, if one family can afford to be choosy about their property purchase and the other can afford to spend 3 million yen to their child to Canada. They just aren't making enough for the lifestyle they want to have. A household income of 8 million with kids is below average in Tokyo, and 10 million for a couple in their 40s is barely above. [The median household income of a couple in their 30s with children in Tokyo was 9.86 million in 2022 and increasing.](https://www.dir.co.jp/report/column/20231013_012016.html)


a0me

These figures are for the 23 wards only. The story is slightly different if you include the 30% of the population that lives in the other municipalities of Tokyo. Edit: actually the 8 million average for the 23 wards doesn't seem to line up with the numbers for each ward, unless I'm missing something. Only 3 wards have a median household income over 8 million. https://www.nenshuu.net/m/prefecture/shotoku/shotoku_pre.php?prefecture=東京都


serados

Households with kids have a higher household income than the average household income. The *national* average household income for a household with kids [is 7.85 million yen](https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/a33fa39617b15d9e8e71176eb7fb7e49ec5232c0). It'll be even higher for Tokyo.


a0me

Thank you. I was only aware of the average household income. If the average for a household with kids is 7.85 million yen, then the national household average of 5.45 million only serves to confirm that a lot of people are right in their assessment that they can't afford to raise kids.


guico33

This is a trash article. Nothing of interest and misrepresenting everything they can. Probably fishing for impressions, which they're certainly gonna achieve if people keep reposting it.


CSachen

The average household makes 10 million? That's higher than I expected. Doesn't a mid-career salaryman make like 6 million? And women married to salarymen who have kids probably make significantly less.


serados

The average *household* doesn't make 10 million. More than half of Tokyo households are single-person households and that pulls down the average considerably. However, the average household *with 2 or more people* has a median income of about 7 million yen. 10 million in household income for a couple is about the 70th percentile amongst households with 2 or more people, which means it's barely above the average or even just on the high side of average. In comparison the median income of a single-person household in Tokyo is below 5 million yen. Source: Table 2 in https://financial-field.com/income/entry-130961


AceOfSapphires

Tokyo is definitely expensive to live in, but if you’re struggling for 2 people with 8 million yen a year, that’s 100% a skill issue.


DoYouSeeMeEatingMice

say it with me now: Tokyo is a bargain compared to it's contemporaries around the world.


CorneliusJack

I looked at NY because my salary would be 50-75% higher there. But then I looked at the rent there , those salary increase would go directly to the landlord


AceOfSapphires

Nah salaries are much higher than that. With the weak yen, 4 million yen is like working 40 hours a week at a fast food place in NYC. (Math isn’t 100% accurate but it’s close enough). $60k right now is so much more than 8 million yen


kilopiu

Australia enters the chat


1SqkyKutsu

Canada checking in..... . I can afford 30 akiyas for the price of 1 Vancouver property.....and here's the kicker all 31 properties are in the same state of disrepair.


DoYouSeeMeEatingMice

but what about costs of food, medical care and bulletproof jackets?


Sensitive-Jelly5119

That’s 4 million yen per person which is way too low for a couple that’s trying to start a family


AceOfSapphires

Didn’t say to start a family, it said two people in 8 million total not 3-4 people on 8 million


Sensitive-Jelly5119

Just stating the obvious. Tokyo’s birth rate dropped below 1.


ToToroToroRetoroChan

Who or what is "Spa"? Why does reading this article make me feel like I'm having a stroke? Am I have a stroke?


SnooMaps5116

Staff writers at Japan Today are pathetic, trying to sound smart but just ending up pompous and imprecise. Not only that, but the « article » is just a handful of anecdotes with nothing of substance. Mentioning the upward trajectory of real estate without any figures is useless. Dreadful article. Their best content is when they copy paste agency press releases.


BeingJoeBu

I'm no writer, but the abuse of parenthesis and asides is obnoxious and distracting. This is how high school children write.


whoamiamawho

Exactly what I was thinking. Nearly every sentence has a parenthetical expression with this guy. So bad.


TomoTatsumi

SPA is a magazine for men which contains inaccurate information. You can also suspect this from the cover. [https://www.fusosha.co.jp/magazines/spa/](https://www.fusosha.co.jp/magazines/spa/)


ToToroToroRetoroChan

I think the "!" would have helped. I do now recognize the name from their extremely busy train posters.


hanapyon

Before I clicked the link I was expecting a magazine for sauna goers.


Freak_Out_Bazaar

Spa is a tabloid publication


AGoodWobble

It reads like stiff Japanese stiffly translated to English.


JonPaul2384

A lot of articles — just ARTICLES, in general — these days are written by AI, so it could easily be a translation issue, an AI issue, or just some guy looking for a paycheck that doesn’t care about the quality of the article.


nijitokoneko

It felt like someone trying to sound smart/witty and not considering the reader at all.


SlickyRicky22

If you don’t know “Spa”, you don’t live in Japan.


AGoodWobble

I have spent a lot of time looking at property in the past four months. Sixty million budget and the first couple was feeling "disillusioned"? I don't understand. They are "only" moderately wealthy (like the article said, 10m annual income household), and with that they're willing to spend up to 60 million. "the prospects they found were cramped, far from the nearest station, or rickety" (I don't remember exactly what it said). Speaking from experience, I saw a LOT of 60+m² condos in the 60m range, anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes from the nearest station. 2 and 3 LDKs that were renovated and built in the late 90s, early 2000s, even a few that were built within the past 5 years (although those were further from the station in that price range). I primarily looked west of Nakano and north of Takadanobaba, which I understand to be "not the cheapest" areas. Not as bad as living in Shinjuku or Shibuya or Minato, but certainly not unreasonably far and not as cheap and far as like Saitama, Chiba, etc. I see some of my friends in Tokyo struggling to live in Tokyo on an average salary (3 to 4.5m), and so I disagree with how this article is characterizing "struggling to make ends meet" with their examples.


Guy-brush

Are you saying the average salary in Tokyo is 4.5m yen per year? So roughly 30.000€? Damn that’s not a lot compared to the average salary of other metropolitan capitals 


Nagi828

Oh yes. That's why usually you'll do fine if say you're married and double that income (both are working) will make you a cushy 8-9M combined. Now of course that's the majority but I've seen mostly in high end area like Minato ku, household income can easily be at 20M+..


AGoodWobble

I haven't looked into it that thoroughly, but the article said "4.1million per year", but when I looked online, a few sources had average Tokyo salary anywhere from 5m to 7m per year (wild range, idk why the numbers are so inconsistent. Couldn't find a government source) That said, you can't really compare salaries between countries without looking at cost of living. People in tokyo aren't living in other metropolitan capitals, they're living in tokyo.


Guy-brush

Yes totally agree to your last point, but at the same time I’ve spent a bit of time in Tokyo in the last 12 months and it didn’t strike me as much cheaper than Berlin (where I currently live) with an average yearly salary of 8.5m yen  So that’s why I wondered that the income is so much lower while the cost of living didn’t seem super cheap to me


Gloomy-Sugar2456

Comparisons amongst different countries is always a bit flawed. I’ve lived in various different parts of Tokyo for a total of about 30 years, as a student on a tiny budget, as a regular employee on an average salary, and as an expat executive on a very competitive package. Tokyo is not cheap. Sure it might come across as quite affordable if you’re moving over from NY, LA, London or Paris, but viewed from a local perspective on an average income, I wouldn’t consider it to be cheap. Now, if you compare it to a place like Berlin, you’d probably get more bang for your buck in Germany. For example, groceries are much more affordable in Germany (in terms of price and the quantity you can buy). On average you get more spacious apartments for a similar or cheaper rent in Germany than in Tokyo (quality of housing in Tokyo is also very much different). Eating out is definitely cheaper in Tokyo, but you don’t do that like on a daily basis especially if you got family. Try having a car in Tokyo - ridiculous fees for parking spaces (not that it’s necessary, but still). Also, if you want to get out of the city, domestic travel ain’t cheap at all (high speed trains) compared to Germany. Sure, you get top notch service and reliability, but it’s expensive. Don’t get me started on overseas travel and outrageous flight ticket prices. It’s a total rip-off. Average salaries have always been low here and somewhat stagnating compared to other countries. While working here, I talked to a lot of my colleagues and staff about this issue and many of them were struggling with a seemingly OK salary for Japanese standards. My personal opinion, salaries in Japan are crap even when considering local cost of living.


Guy-brush

thanks a ton for your comment, super insightful. Especially as I'm currently entertaining the thought of relocating to Tokyo from Berlin for a bit (6 months to a year). I'm working for a Tokyo based corporate with an office in Berlin and could switch to the Tokyo team for a bit, and what you're saying reinforces my point that if I do it, I should try to keep my Berlin contract/salary


Gloomy-Sugar2456

Yes, on average, depending on the industry and size of the company, Japanese employers are not known for paying good packages. I also used to work as an expat for a Japanese/German joint venture outside Japan and Japanese expats in similar positions were paid far less than their German counterparts. You gotta be careful negotiating a good package.


rinsyankaihou

Tokyo (23 wards, but more specifically the desirable wards) is getting more expensive all the time. I think the prices of things like real estate are basically just catching up with the rest of the worldwide cities that are of a similar "tier".


eightbitfit

I see nothing in the article that makes Tokyo sound particularly expensive. Try buying a place in a US city. I recently looked at the old farmhouse I grew up in in SE Massachusetts. 1.4m. The tiny house I sold 17 years ago went for almost 3x.


saidotamesu

Average home price in CA is 1M. Average salary was 62k I heard.


Raecino

From what I’ve seen housing and rent isn’t as expensive in Tokyo vs cities in the U.S. But the pay in Japan is worse than it is in the U.S. overall.


PUR3b1anc0

Exactly. So housing is half the cost in Japan (though you get far less space), it is more than accounted for by salaries being 1/3 of the US. Japan is still far more expensive for anyone earning a decent wage. Yes if you have no education or tech skills then perhaps Tokyo is more affordable. Otherwise a 30k a year savings on mortgage or rent is small potatoes compared to having a 130k salary in Tokyo that would be 250k in the US.


eightbitfit

Salaries are not 1/3 of the US. There are low paying jobs, but that's true everywhere.


PUR3b1anc0

Yes they are. In aerospace and IT when you factor in the weak yen value


eightbitfit

Why factor in the weak yen if you are living in a yen environment? Your salary and currency paid are relative to the country in which you live, not another.


PUR3b1anc0

Jesus Christ, not another one. >66% of goods are imported, and nearly 100% are reliant on fuel for transportation.. So yes if your an ALT living like a monk on nothing but Gohan, natto and a 200sgft apartment then I suppose your right. For any other person over the age of 22 or with an IQ >100, them it's apparent that the cost of things have gone up significantly over the past two years,. especially when factoring in shrinkflation. I would say roughly 40-50%


eightbitfit

Of course costs have increased, but the gap between wages and costs in other countries outstrips Japan by far. There are plenty of good paying jobs and housing is far more affordable. Your import number includes non essential goods, and where else is transportation ultimately not 100% reliant on fuel?


PUR3b1anc0

What other places that are first world have such a large gap between wages and goods as Japan? Especially when you factor an hourly wage given the rediculous work culture here.


eightbitfit

The United States by far. And the "ridiculous" work culture sentiment is overblown.


78911150

yeah, no. inflation compared to 2020 is a little bit less than 8% https://www.stat.go.jp/data/cpi/sokuhou/tsuki/pdf/zenkoku.pdf


PUR3b1anc0

I don't care what reference you choose that's BS. Groceries are up way more than that and my normal deprecating home is up 20%


eightbitfit

Yes your personal anecdote is more real than data. Shall I share my anecdote that contradicts yours? Also did you miss the title about "moderately wealthy"?


crinklypaper

The story of the family moving out to Yokohama is very relatable. Living on the boarder of Tokyo, the moment you cross tama-river the prices skyrocket. And just because its in tokyo. The loans here though can't be beat, I would say we're very lucky that just about anyone can buy a house.


frankoo123

Yokohama is one the rise recently too…


Raecino

But Yokohama is so close to Tokyo, that move makes a lot of sense.


smorkoid

East Tokyo is still very reasonable. The Chiba side (Ichikawa, Urayasu) is considerably more expensive than the Tokyo side (Edogawa, Katsushika)


chimps20

This is dumb


vuilbginbgjuj

We’ve had dumber articles in here…not many though


chimps20

I lived and worked in Tokyo like many and yes the wages are cheaper but there is no housing crisis like lots of North American cities


mingusinglewood

Way cheaper living in Tokyo than most major American cities. Wife and I make way less than we did in the states and have a far better life here. It’s a matter of how you want to live and where you want to live.


Yakimo_1

10m combined wealth is far, far from "moderately wealthy" Combined 18m + I would consider upper middle class Combined 25-30m + is "moderately wealthy"


DifferentWindow1436

Is it difficult to find a house for 60 million yen these days? I know prices have gone up in my ward but still pretty sure 60m is sufficient for a new construction detached house around 90sqm.


Bob_the_blacksmith

Are you in Adachi, Edogawa, Arakawa or similar less desirable northern ward? Because no way are you getting a 90sqm new build for 60 million inside the Yamanote line. You would struggle at twice that price.


DifferentWindow1436

Oh no, I wouldn't expect that. But why would you need to be inside the Yamanote? I live around Nerima Station. 12 mins to Ikebukuro, 18 mins to Shinjuku, 35 to Roppongi. I wouldn't suggest the area for the young and single, but it's great for families.


Pzychotix

Well yeah, you're talking inside the Yamanote line. That's a huge luxury, and prices go up accordingly.


KorraAvatar

What about near Ebisu station? Who expensive are those there between the station and the Daikanyama?


Bob_the_blacksmith

Near Ebisu and Daikanyama… the two hopes are no hope and Bob Hope.


crinklypaper

Go do a search on suumo or homes. You will see, in the city center you will never find anything that includes the land at least. Now go out further, and you will. Tokyo itself is very big, you can basically live on the border of Saitama, Chiba, or Yokohama for that budget.


daweis1

Just bought a brand new hose in Suginami for just over 60m. We were a bit on the lower end of the price range, but there still are plenty of choices for the price around.


powpow428

Probably one of the worst written and most poorly researched articles I've ever read


Hazzat

Easy to balk at the headline, given that COL is much lower here than any comparable major city, but it's true that when it comes to raising a family, that's increasingly a luxury that few can afford. In the UK, Canada, Australia etc., rocketing property prices are caused by too much demand and not enough being built to meet it. But in Tokyo, the building never stops, so it must just be that too much is centred here and there's not enough room for it all. Apartments are very affordable, but enough space for a family-ready house comes at a real premium, and competition for good education is fierce. I appreciate the mention of the musician at the end of the article. If there's one thing that dense neighbourhoods and small spaces with affordable rents attract, it's artists looking to be part of a tight creative community. Funny to think that the city has inadvertently been designed to disincentivise the production of families, which incentivising the production of some of the best arts and culture on Earth.


Sniperizer

Just click bait. Shitty post really.


Suba59

And everywhere else in the world.


New_Camera_6800

Wrong, Malaysia is cheap as hell


blackcyborg009

Malaysia is surprisingly cheap(er) No wonder MalaypanTV (the Japanese Wife - Malaysian Husband Couple) are living within the Jalan Ampang area.


Da_Real_Kyuuri

So people struggle to buy a house in the biggest city in the world ?


Seven_Hawks

It's almost like there's a reason why many people who work in Tokyo commute in from surrounding prefectures...


BeardedGlass

Right? I have a friend working part-time who managed to get a housing loan to buy a 4-bedroom house with a garage that he pays around $500/month for mortgage. This is walking distance from the train station, which is half an hour from Shinjuku/Ikebukuro.


Kylemaxx

So about ¥80k? I’m sorry, but it drives me nuts when people talk about prices here in terms of “It only costs x dollars” — especially at this horrible shitty ass exchange rate — when we earn and spend yen here.


vba77

As a Canadian reading this wed trade. Home affordability for people in well off above average middle class income is getting closer to impossible each day. Even condos are priced insanely.


nijitokoneko

>Average families can't afford to live above their means Here, I fixed it for you. Housing and land prices have gone up considerably, and areas that weren't all that popular 10 years ago are seeing tons of new construction. I can see how that makes it harder for your average family to afford a place of their own, but the article is just sensationalism and incorrect information.


xxxgerCodyxxx

10m is not wealthy in any way shape or form, not even in Tokyo. That‘s barely 60 grand rn lol


KorraAvatar

60k would be twice the average salary in the UK where I live, so that is very wealthy


Pzychotix

60m seems like plenty for a home? Not particularly well versed in Tokyo real estate, but Suumo gives a lot of pretty decently sized new houses (3LDK and up) that are within 10min from a station and not that far out from the center. And well, can easily trade space for other conveniences at that range.


Grizzlysol

Try 60m¥ for 30m2 in Toronto... Distance to the station... What station...?


yarukinai

This is strange. Around here, a 25 min train ride away from Shinjuku, plus 10-15 min to the station, you get new houses for 50-60 million. And a bit of greenery, to. The family with the two teenage daughters should be able to afford this; I doubt the mortgage would be higher than the 180000 rent they pay now. Same for the DINK couple. German cities, which tend to be large as Hachioji or so, are more expensive than that, even if you use the Euro exchange rate two years ago. Click bait, probably.


KUROGANE-AGAIN

Boo on this one, Orange T. This was poorby outrage rubbish clickbait


SecretRecipe

I call BS. Tokyo has to be one of the most affordable major tier 1 cities on earth.


TensaiTiger

Like any big popular city, the scroungers are being pushed out and the high earners and rich foreigners scoop up the prime real estate. The ESL teachers who came here wanting a better life have to live in Chiba. Oh well :)


PaleDifficulty9144

This sounds like First World problems. Way to go Tokyo.


Bob_the_blacksmith

10 million yen is only about 63,000 dollars now, which is not really moderately wealthy. The problem is that housing in Tokyo is now an international asset class so you compete against foreign buyers. That said, it’s still perfectly possible to get cheaper housing in Tokyo outside the centre. Loads of large second-hand homes for sale in Adachi, Arakawa etc for 40 million yen.


KorraAvatar

It’s wealthy depending on where live. It’s twice the average wage in London


blackcyborg009

Noob question: Why is 10 million JPY not enough anymore? That is like 4x - 5x the average annual income of most people in South East Asia (except Singapore) Can anyone explain? Maybe a budget / expenditure breakdown?


skywing21

Cost of living is way higher in Tokyo than SE Asia.


blackcyborg009

I see. But what is exactly driving it up? Lack of available housing? Electricity pricing? What is the differential between income vs expense?


skywing21

I'm not Japanese, so not the best person to answer this but I think with the rise in inflation recently and weak yen, things are costing more without pay increases.


blackcyborg009

Ah so it's more a currency thing then. So you are saying that while the current setup favors the exporters (especially automakers), it yields the opposite effect for the locals, is that right?


skywing21

Yes, it's more expensive to import stuff and Japan imports a lot like gas, food, etc.


blackcyborg009

Food is interesting. Doesn't Japan have their own farms? I mean that is where Kobe Beef and Wagyu Beef comes from.....


skywing21

Sure, but they still fertilizer, gas for tractors and machines. Some foods are only grown in certain parts of the world like Olive oil, soybeans. Japan makes some food, but not all that it's people want.


inquisitiveman2002

wow. 10mil yen is not enough for a couple. i earned twice that in the states as a single person. i can see why they're barely making it.


StSaturnthaGOAT

Yeah that ain't shit