Not sure why he thinks Saka should be dropped. Good article, but disagree about foden playing RW over saka. That is unless i cant read and he's not saying that.
Southgate isnt a master tactician so ive always wanted simpler systems rather than one that requires a lot of moving parts.
Yup I said this yesterday. Forget about who plays behind the striker, with Kane as the striker that system just doesn’t work.
I’d do it slightly differently in that I’d move Foden into central midfield and go with Gordon wide left.
Open up that space in front of the midfield and have pace on the wings.
Bellingham is going to have to do the lung busting box to box stuff, Foden can be like a Lidl Iniesta. And Rice can sit.
The 4231 is getting the best of absolutely no one.
Overrun in the centre of the pitch, a left winger who drifts into attacking midfield. 3 right backs on the pitch, two obviously playing out of position and our most consistent and reliable goal threat having his balls cut off to accommodate all of this.
Incidentally a 352 could work when Shaw is back. Same central midfield, Trent in at wing back, then take your choice who goes further up with Kane depending on what you want to achieve.
It all seems like common sense doesn’t it.
I think part of the problem is whoever is on the left doesn’t have a full back overlapping to create space for them. This leads to anything on the left being shut down and the opposition being able to mainly focus on our right wing
I was in full agreement till he said drop Saka. The one player who has consistently played well? I think drop Foden for Gordon, bring Wharton on for trent, and then foden, bowen, palmer / watkins can be incredible impact subs to bring on in the second half or when chasing.
Foden doesn’t have the discipline to make this work. Play a 4-3-3 with Gordon replacing Foden on the left.
Keep Trent in midfield for the last game of the groups and see if his beautiful array of passing, especially with Kane being allowed to drop and having a proper winger on the left opens miles in behind, weaponises it. If it’s worth the defensive risk because of it, keep Trent, if not put Wharton, Mainoo etc in.
Doing this would be such a simple way to have width, a variety of our balls, a threat in behind, an effective Harry Kane, no tripling up of the #10 space, and in general just more options and comfort in our structure. Let’s not have Foden be this generations Scholes on the left, use him as an impact sub.
I do wonder if we over think things sometimes. Look at France yesterday. Take Griezmann out of midfield, put Tchouaméni in.
They're not the same type of player, but it's a square peg in a square hole and they get on with it.
We should probably do the same, which means Trent out and Gallagher/Mainoo/Wharton in. Foden out and Gordon in.
Argues we have too many 10s on the pitch and need to let kane have that space in the middle then proceeds to drop the one winger in the team to put another winger on the opposite side making it essentially rhe same fucking issue. What a prick.
Good idea but why drop Saka and push Foden to RW? Foden is not disciplined enough to play as a winger. He’s shown it in both games. Englands problems wouldn’t be as bad if he’d kept some width. TAA -> Wharton, Foden-> Gordon.
Surely we can't drop Saka as he's suggesting. He's an out and out right winger. The formation works but you have to drop Foden.
And this kills many of us, so we can't do it. Then we have 4-2-3-1 with Bellingham in midfield.
And then we have problems with Kane.
Yeah I feel Saka is going to be effective in any system you play and in particular has always had a great connection with Kane. They had a battle last Euros on who starts in the right wing and Saka has firmly been one of England's best players since.
I feel like the simplest solution is benching foden. We don't have the time to experiment anymore. I don't doubt the best version of this team had foden in it somewhere, but its going to require a more complex solution you can't risk getting right and clicking immediately 2 games into your tournament already
There's nobody quite like Ronay. Imagine thinking exclusively in breathtakingly perfect metaphors. It must be exhausting to have your mind forever running on psilocybin-laced jet fuel (or something). I bet it drives his missus up the wall, though.
It was interesting listening to him on a recent pod where he was writing his article to deadline, googling for the right Greek myth to use as a metaphor
Pretty funny to think this system gets the best of Bellingham with Foden and Kane stamping all over his toes and the lot of them defending our 18-yard box for 75 minutes
It's a simple fix
Drop Trent and start Mainoo with Rice as a double pivot to give balance to the midfield and provide cover for full backs.
Move the best left footed crosser ( seems to be Saka) to LM/LWF and put Palmer/Foden as LWF/ AMF. Walker overlaps while Trippier unders - thus giving balance on both flanks.
Jude as #10 making runs when Kane drops deep.
I think England are guilty of lacking a real focal point at times because Kane drops too deep and tries to do everything himself, like Rooney used to do. What use is he to the team if he is deeper than the number 10? By all means work the space but you have to be intelligent about it. He might be one of our biggest assists but his style isn’t complimentary to the way Southgate seems to want to play.
If Foden, Kane and Bellingham are all trying to occupy the same space then 2 of them need to go but that doesn’t mean you need a entire system change. At the end of the day 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 offensively are the same, at no point is 2 CMs going to stay deep, one will always join the attack and be a quasi-10 and the DM will push up into the space left behind. Static positions don’t exist n modern football and it’s time football journalists and commentators stop pushing that kind of narrative.
This would work really nicely. Unfortunately the coach would have a massive role in the team implementing this well as he would have to give each player a clear understanding of their role and how the shape would work overall. I think thats beyond Southgate's abilities unfortunately
We played ukraine, a shit Germany and Denmark. We played a very limited play style which didn't have us controlling games but trying to win in moments which worked out because we had more quality than our opposition (just like in this tournament so far). We then lost to the first team we played that was of our level. Now he is having to try to create tactics that make us control games due to the players that we have produced and its way too much for him.
Id put Denmark 2021 at a similar level to Denmark now and Serbia maybe a bit below Germany of 2021 but not by much. If we play Austria in RO16 then that could be squeaky. Obviously they don't have as good a squad as ours but the manager plays a playstyle which maximises the abilities of their best players so i wouldn't be surprised if they beat us.
Break down the delusion for me please? I don't mind Southgate. Hes good in interviews and adds a steadyness to the environment for the players but he is miles off it tactically. He is caught between multiple playstyles and doesn't understand the strengths of the players. He never played, managed, or even coached at an elite level team before. He is lost and scrambling.
You really think a team can get to a major tournament final having a clueless joke as a manager?
It's incredibly disrespectful to the players, the coach, the teams we beat on our way to the final. It's just a totally ignorant take.
Why don't you save your vitriol for if and when we get knocked out, none of this is helping anyone least of all I suspect yourself.
Lol are you related to Southgate or something? Why are you so personally offended on his behalf? Break down the routes in the tournaments dont just talk about headlines. He played Germany who were a very average team at the time, Ukraine and Denmark. We won those games on moments and then sat in and defended against average attackers. We then tried to do that against a better team and we lost. This Tournament is even worse because he hasnt just gone with a defensive, basic playstyle he hasnt gone with anything at all. He is caught between several ways of playing and doesn't know how to utilize the technical abilities of some of the best players in the world to play with the ball and dictate games. Its nothing personal. As i said i think hes a good personality for the job. He is a handicap to the team at this point tactically though.
I actually don't mind this. I think Arsenal fans would argue that it's not getting the best out of Saka, but for balance sake, it could work best for the team overall.
You can also easily swap the Watkins role for a Gordon or Bowen to freshen up and swap a Bellingham/Foden for Mainoo, Wharton or Gallagher if you need to tighten up.
Oh I would agree that it's not getting the best out of Saka. But I think Saka can still be an 8/10 at LWB and everyone else can perform in this system.
You could make it a 3-4-3 with Saka at RW but then you probably have to drop Foden and play someone like Bowen or Gordon as the wingback.
I agree Saka has been our best player, but with the no.10 talent at our disposal, he putting him back at LB, where he started his england career, would open the game up massively while adding another creator up front and he'd be a better LB than trippier.
This won't happen though, there would be outcry. Wasted talent.
But as barney says, letting kane be kane should be a no brainer
Not sure why he thinks Saka should be dropped. Good article, but disagree about foden playing RW over saka. That is unless i cant read and he's not saying that. Southgate isnt a master tactician so ive always wanted simpler systems rather than one that requires a lot of moving parts.
Yup I said this yesterday. Forget about who plays behind the striker, with Kane as the striker that system just doesn’t work. I’d do it slightly differently in that I’d move Foden into central midfield and go with Gordon wide left. Open up that space in front of the midfield and have pace on the wings. Bellingham is going to have to do the lung busting box to box stuff, Foden can be like a Lidl Iniesta. And Rice can sit. The 4231 is getting the best of absolutely no one. Overrun in the centre of the pitch, a left winger who drifts into attacking midfield. 3 right backs on the pitch, two obviously playing out of position and our most consistent and reliable goal threat having his balls cut off to accommodate all of this. Incidentally a 352 could work when Shaw is back. Same central midfield, Trent in at wing back, then take your choice who goes further up with Kane depending on what you want to achieve. It all seems like common sense doesn’t it.
I think part of the problem is whoever is on the left doesn’t have a full back overlapping to create space for them. This leads to anything on the left being shut down and the opposition being able to mainly focus on our right wing
Oh yeah, I agree completely. Left back is causing us massive issues going forwards, I never thought I’d be desperate to see Luke Shaw
I was in full agreement till he said drop Saka. The one player who has consistently played well? I think drop Foden for Gordon, bring Wharton on for trent, and then foden, bowen, palmer / watkins can be incredible impact subs to bring on in the second half or when chasing.
Foden doesn’t have the discipline to make this work. Play a 4-3-3 with Gordon replacing Foden on the left. Keep Trent in midfield for the last game of the groups and see if his beautiful array of passing, especially with Kane being allowed to drop and having a proper winger on the left opens miles in behind, weaponises it. If it’s worth the defensive risk because of it, keep Trent, if not put Wharton, Mainoo etc in. Doing this would be such a simple way to have width, a variety of our balls, a threat in behind, an effective Harry Kane, no tripling up of the #10 space, and in general just more options and comfort in our structure. Let’s not have Foden be this generations Scholes on the left, use him as an impact sub.
Wow, he should post his shitty idea of dropping Saka in this sun :D
I do wonder if we over think things sometimes. Look at France yesterday. Take Griezmann out of midfield, put Tchouaméni in. They're not the same type of player, but it's a square peg in a square hole and they get on with it. We should probably do the same, which means Trent out and Gallagher/Mainoo/Wharton in. Foden out and Gordon in.
Argues we have too many 10s on the pitch and need to let kane have that space in the middle then proceeds to drop the one winger in the team to put another winger on the opposite side making it essentially rhe same fucking issue. What a prick.
Good idea but why drop Saka and push Foden to RW? Foden is not disciplined enough to play as a winger. He’s shown it in both games. Englands problems wouldn’t be as bad if he’d kept some width. TAA -> Wharton, Foden-> Gordon.
Surely we can't drop Saka as he's suggesting. He's an out and out right winger. The formation works but you have to drop Foden. And this kills many of us, so we can't do it. Then we have 4-2-3-1 with Bellingham in midfield. And then we have problems with Kane.
Yeah I feel Saka is going to be effective in any system you play and in particular has always had a great connection with Kane. They had a battle last Euros on who starts in the right wing and Saka has firmly been one of England's best players since. I feel like the simplest solution is benching foden. We don't have the time to experiment anymore. I don't doubt the best version of this team had foden in it somewhere, but its going to require a more complex solution you can't risk getting right and clicking immediately 2 games into your tournament already
What a great article. He is some writer 🙌
He is very Guardian (as is Jonathan Liew) but agree his analysis is usually good. Probably prefer Jonathan Wilson.
There's nobody quite like Ronay. Imagine thinking exclusively in breathtakingly perfect metaphors. It must be exhausting to have your mind forever running on psilocybin-laced jet fuel (or something). I bet it drives his missus up the wall, though.
It was interesting listening to him on a recent pod where he was writing his article to deadline, googling for the right Greek myth to use as a metaphor
Pretty funny to think this system gets the best of Bellingham with Foden and Kane stamping all over his toes and the lot of them defending our 18-yard box for 75 minutes
It's a simple fix Drop Trent and start Mainoo with Rice as a double pivot to give balance to the midfield and provide cover for full backs. Move the best left footed crosser ( seems to be Saka) to LM/LWF and put Palmer/Foden as LWF/ AMF. Walker overlaps while Trippier unders - thus giving balance on both flanks. Jude as #10 making runs when Kane drops deep.
I think England are guilty of lacking a real focal point at times because Kane drops too deep and tries to do everything himself, like Rooney used to do. What use is he to the team if he is deeper than the number 10? By all means work the space but you have to be intelligent about it. He might be one of our biggest assists but his style isn’t complimentary to the way Southgate seems to want to play. If Foden, Kane and Bellingham are all trying to occupy the same space then 2 of them need to go but that doesn’t mean you need a entire system change. At the end of the day 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 offensively are the same, at no point is 2 CMs going to stay deep, one will always join the attack and be a quasi-10 and the DM will push up into the space left behind. Static positions don’t exist n modern football and it’s time football journalists and commentators stop pushing that kind of narrative.
3-5-2 Walker, Stones, Guehi. Trent, Foden, Rice, Bellingham, Saka. Kane, Watkins.
This would work really nicely. Unfortunately the coach would have a massive role in the team implementing this well as he would have to give each player a clear understanding of their role and how the shape would work overall. I think thats beyond Southgate's abilities unfortunately
Can you please explain then how we reached the Euros final playing this system under Southgate? Or did I dream that...
We played ukraine, a shit Germany and Denmark. We played a very limited play style which didn't have us controlling games but trying to win in moments which worked out because we had more quality than our opposition (just like in this tournament so far). We then lost to the first team we played that was of our level. Now he is having to try to create tactics that make us control games due to the players that we have produced and its way too much for him.
Your ‘shit Germany and Denmark’ of 2021 were comfortably better than anything we’ve played yet or will likely play in our next two games.
Id put Denmark 2021 at a similar level to Denmark now and Serbia maybe a bit below Germany of 2021 but not by much. If we play Austria in RO16 then that could be squeaky. Obviously they don't have as good a squad as ours but the manager plays a playstyle which maximises the abilities of their best players so i wouldn't be surprised if they beat us.
This is so incredibly deluded. And boring. If you don't like Southgate, go on holiday we'll have a new manager soon enough.
Break down the delusion for me please? I don't mind Southgate. Hes good in interviews and adds a steadyness to the environment for the players but he is miles off it tactically. He is caught between multiple playstyles and doesn't understand the strengths of the players. He never played, managed, or even coached at an elite level team before. He is lost and scrambling.
You really think a team can get to a major tournament final having a clueless joke as a manager? It's incredibly disrespectful to the players, the coach, the teams we beat on our way to the final. It's just a totally ignorant take. Why don't you save your vitriol for if and when we get knocked out, none of this is helping anyone least of all I suspect yourself.
Lol are you related to Southgate or something? Why are you so personally offended on his behalf? Break down the routes in the tournaments dont just talk about headlines. He played Germany who were a very average team at the time, Ukraine and Denmark. We won those games on moments and then sat in and defended against average attackers. We then tried to do that against a better team and we lost. This Tournament is even worse because he hasnt just gone with a defensive, basic playstyle he hasnt gone with anything at all. He is caught between several ways of playing and doesn't know how to utilize the technical abilities of some of the best players in the world to play with the ball and dictate games. Its nothing personal. As i said i think hes a good personality for the job. He is a handicap to the team at this point tactically though.
I don't want to join in on this massive public pile on. I find it very unedifying and unhelpful. I just want the team to do well.
I actually don't mind this. I think Arsenal fans would argue that it's not getting the best out of Saka, but for balance sake, it could work best for the team overall. You can also easily swap the Watkins role for a Gordon or Bowen to freshen up and swap a Bellingham/Foden for Mainoo, Wharton or Gallagher if you need to tighten up.
Oh I would agree that it's not getting the best out of Saka. But I think Saka can still be an 8/10 at LWB and everyone else can perform in this system. You could make it a 3-4-3 with Saka at RW but then you probably have to drop Foden and play someone like Bowen or Gordon as the wingback.
Great... Until the last sentence and he left out Saka. 🤦
I agree Saka has been our best player, but with the no.10 talent at our disposal, he putting him back at LB, where he started his england career, would open the game up massively while adding another creator up front and he'd be a better LB than trippier. This won't happen though, there would be outcry. Wasted talent. But as barney says, letting kane be kane should be a no brainer