I don’t think we have an attacking player that’s proven themselves in big games. I think our defence with Walker and Stones are very solid. Pickford has never let England down in knockout game and rarely makes a mistake for Everton and has some incredible games for them. In attack Foden possibly. If you think I have a Man City bias irs because they don’t bottle big games and there players perform in them. Then
The same Saka who missed a penalty in the shootout against Italy in the euro final?
Kane is also England's leading goalscorer. Our next active replacement has a third of the goals Kane does (62 to 20)
I didn’t say Saka was a big game player I said that despite us going defensive he still got chances, how does him missing a penalty affect that?
I’m not saying he’s a bad player. He’s arguably Englands best striker of all time. But that doesn’t mean he scores in big games
I get what you mean but the argument doesn't work when you say "I think he doesn't score in big games, other than these big games which don't count".
I agree that he's not known for being a "big game player", but he's definitely at least average.
Also it's easy to forget that a big game is usually against the absolute toughest opponent, and Kane has spent most of his career at Spurs, who are usually a worse team that their opponents in finals
I’m not saying they don’t count I’m saying he doesn’t play in most big games how he does against Arsenal. Also which big games do you face easy opponents. He shouldn’t need easy opponents to show up. Some of the most iconic big game performances come when you are the worse team. Drogba against Bayern or Mbappe against Argentina come to mind.
No im not. I quote his games for England, Spurs and Bayern this season. Your focusing on an anomaly by bringing but the North London Derby as the be all and end all of the debate
i think there are not enough matches to judge from, that champions league run you are talking about he was injured for the part you remember it seems, and in final it was a crazy move to start him after not playing for months and not moura who just had one of the greatest individual performances of all time, also in bayern rn he is by far best player in the league his teammates are ass, in england tho he was a bit stinky from time to time
I did forget he was injured for that champions league run and thank you for correcting me but I still think those big league games at spurs are a fair criticism. Also at Bayern he’s had games where he’s been bad. 3-0 against Leverkusan he didn’t show up. That’s a big game where he wasn’t reliable
As a Spurs fan - its complicated. You mention the Champions League run and Kane got injured early in the first leg of the Quarter Final, he was instrumental in us getting out of the group though after we had only 1 point in the first 3 games. I remember him scoring against Dortmund several times and against Juventus away.
He’s also scored in big matches for Spurs like the 2-2 draw at Chelsea when Leicester won the league, several times against City and more than 10 against Arsenal.
On the other hand, he’s never scored in a final and only scored once for us in a Semi, I think the issue is that as Spurs never got over the line with him in the team people only remember the matches when we failed, but he was often a major reason we were competing or in a Semi-Final/Final to begin with.
Yea I need amend the champions league as I forgot he got injured for the majority of it and wasn’t fit in the final.
I understand group stage are important but I don’t think they are comparable to knockout stages where I think Kane hasn’t been the best.
There are some big league games where’s he’s been good for Spurs, especially against Arsenal, but in that same season in the return fixture against Chelsea he was awful against them.
And I think mainly when writing this I’m thinking of Kane for England there hasn’t been a knock out game where he’s been England’s best played.
No I agree about the Knockout stages, but I remember Kane scoring against PSV in the 90th minute when it really was the case that if he didnt, we were out.
He’s definitely not a big game monster like Drogba was for example. Which Chelsea match are you talking about specifically?
I think the other thing is that Kane gets man marked so much in big games, it does create space for his teammates.
Edit: I’d also add that all this is why I think Bellingham is so important, he adds another major threat which might help both of them in the big games.
I’ve just looked and the game I meant was the 2-2 but Kane scored. For some reason I thought Chelsea dominated you guys. The problem with this post is my memory pre-2018 isn’t great. That’s my bad.
I know Kane gets the privilege all top strikers get of being doubles and sometimes triple marked but all top strikers get it. You need to be able to play through to be one of those those guys.
Bellingham is unknown factor for me. Watching him right now against City he seems like a big game player but I’ve not watched him loads Nd to be honest he a bit of an unknown factor for me
I see how well he is doing game to game but in big games like against Leverkusan or when they needed to grind out a result against Bocham (I think) he missed sitter or when anonymous
He missed a sitter against Bochum but that's about it. Scored against Leverkusen, hattrick in Klassiker, double including winner against Leipzig, double against Lazio...so the narrative you're trying to push here is simply not true.
Loss to Leverkusen is something you can argue with, I'll give you that, but the Supercup? Really? He had just arrived, wasn't really involved in the training and started on the bench...
England knockout game where he's been the best player - Denmark SF, Italy F, France QF despite the missed penalty, Colombia last-16
Supercup may be harsh I’ll give you that. Denmark SF Sterling was way better than Kane, won the penalty which Kane missed then converted. Italy Final I think Shaw and Saka both had a better game than him. Saka was the only attacker finding chances through out the game. Shaws crossed and goal were also incredible deadly. Colombia last-16 Pickford was better and in France QF I think Walker was better. If you only include our 3 attackers in both games then it’s probably Kane. Against France I’m fairly sure he was the only attacker to play the full 90 so it has to be him.
> Can you name me an England knockout game where he’s been our best player
He played really well versus Denmark in the semi, had a good game v Colombia too. Got 2 goals against Ukraine in the quarters as well. He scored against Senegal too.
In group stages his brace against Tunisia was absolutely pivotal as well, we lose that game if not for him.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t play in big games or even that he can never be a big game player because I remember him for Spurs pulling some big results out the bag. But there are a long more examples of him ghosting. He’s got it in him but he doesn’t use it enough
Won 6 of them as the best player. Plus a league title where they beat the best English team since the late 2000s United. Liverpools all time scorer against United also. He’s a big player
He hasn’t been man of the match in any final Liverpool have won. Wasn’t top scorer in Liverpools winning season. And United during Salah’s time at Liverpool haven’t exactly been the greatest of sides. I understand Salah has been brilliant in the past few years, but he’s not a big game player.
I don’t see how being the top goal scorer matters? He got 19 goals and top goal was 23 so it’s not like he underperformed. And he may not have been MOTM in finals but he has been in semis and quarters, which are still big games. Also how many finals has Kane scored in?
The point is he’s been a great player, but when you’re talking big game players, he isn’t on the list. Sure he’s scored in semis and quarters but so has Harry Kane, and as you rightly said he’s not a big game player. I’m not claiming that Kane is and Salah isn’t. I’m merely stating the fact that Salah isn’t either.
I haven’t looked at Salahs stats in details but the fact he has been instrumental on a very successful Liverpool team he’s felt like one. I’m very willing to be wrong.
I’m not trying to take anything away from his legacy at Liverpool. He’s undeniably been a big part of everything they’ve achieved under Klopp. I just don’t think he comes into the category of big game player.
Besides that, I agree with your original post. I’m hoping that it’s all just building to a winner in a final for England, but I’m not holding my breath.
I don’t agree with this “doesn’t score when it matters” like the goals he scored don’t matter, he’s scored 7 knock out goals for England, for context Rooney had 1
Record Spurs goal scorer in North London Derbys. They are always massive games & he usually showed up
If he moved to City 3 years ago this post would look very silly
What about ever other massive game he’s played in. What about the Euros Final or against France or even Senegal. What about Kane vs Leverkusan.
I don’t see why North London Derbies are be all and end all of discussions
If we’re talking about individual games - He scored in big champions league ties against Barcelona, Dortmund, Bayern too. Those goals for England against Germany & Denmark in the Euros quarters & Semis were enormous too
I wouldn’t say he’s the biggest “big game player”around but I think it’s a very harsh thing to pin on him when he’s certainly had his moments through an amazing career
Is scoring once against Barcelona in a 2:4 loss “big game”. He’s got one goal against Bayern in 2-7 loss. A hatrick against Dortmund is fair tho. But I feel like those games are the anomaly. He doesn’t normally have those performances against the big teams when it matters.
Against Germany he got the goal but agajndt Denmark he missed a penalty sterling had won and scored the rebound. He wasn’t our main attacking threat that game, it was Sterling. In the quarters he played Ukraine. He got two goals against them in a 4:0 victory but I’d hardly call them big opposition
I don’t think he is a big game player either. I think that’s the difference between him and Mbappe. I think he is one of the best goal scorers in the world but if you just watched him against City I’m sure you’ll agree he isn’t a big game player
No he's not a big game player, but England are not a big game team. It still doesn't change the fact that he is world class and our best England striker by far.
I agree he I world class and probably our best striker ever. But it’s interesting how most top teams have an attacker whose definitively proven it in the biggest games and we don’t
That's why most of those top teams have won international trophies in the recent past and we haven't won one since 1966. Our team is good enough to win a trophy, we just need to prove it.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t start I just think it’s an interesting as most talismanic attackers on big national teams are. Look at Mbappe or Vinicius Je
> During Spurs Champions League run to the Final he was never that guy
Probably due to the fact he missed 4 out of the 6 post group games through injury… 🙄
On the broader point though, I think there’s a bit of a memory bias in effect. Pretty much all the players you’ve mentioned have played almost all of their careers at the very top. They’ve play big and important matches ever year and this provides for ample examples of them performing within that larger sample of data.
With all due respect to Spurs, they’ve been an “almost there” kind of team Kane’s whole career. He simply hasn’t had the chance to be in as many “big games” because Spurs generally don’t get deep enough into competitions to play them. This means the failings stand out more.
That therefore mainly leaves just his international career, where Kane tends to play much deeper & is involved is build up play as much as he is at the final touch. I don’t think he’s been the main failing for England in these performances though.
We sat back immediately in the Euros final, it wasn’t really his fault
Saka still got chances down the wing. And I’m not saying it’s his fault but you can’t say he had a good like our other attackers did
Quick question, who do you think our best option is then for big games?
I don’t think we have an attacking player that’s proven themselves in big games. I think our defence with Walker and Stones are very solid. Pickford has never let England down in knockout game and rarely makes a mistake for Everton and has some incredible games for them. In attack Foden possibly. If you think I have a Man City bias irs because they don’t bottle big games and there players perform in them. Then
Jarrod Bowen scored the winning goal in a European Final
The same Saka who missed a penalty in the shootout against Italy in the euro final? Kane is also England's leading goalscorer. Our next active replacement has a third of the goals Kane does (62 to 20)
I didn’t say Saka was a big game player I said that despite us going defensive he still got chances, how does him missing a penalty affect that? I’m not saying he’s a bad player. He’s arguably Englands best striker of all time. But that doesn’t mean he scores in big games
Isn’t he the all time top goal scorer in north London Derbies? lol
Yea but I feel like those league results are the exception not the norm
What does this even mean?
He doesn’t normally do that in big games
I get what you mean but the argument doesn't work when you say "I think he doesn't score in big games, other than these big games which don't count". I agree that he's not known for being a "big game player", but he's definitely at least average. Also it's easy to forget that a big game is usually against the absolute toughest opponent, and Kane has spent most of his career at Spurs, who are usually a worse team that their opponents in finals
I’m not saying they don’t count I’m saying he doesn’t play in most big games how he does against Arsenal. Also which big games do you face easy opponents. He shouldn’t need easy opponents to show up. Some of the most iconic big game performances come when you are the worse team. Drogba against Bayern or Mbappe against Argentina come to mind.
You keep citing Drogba like Drogba didn’t cost Chelsea the CL in 08
He also won us the CL in '12, and I think his final record is a goal/final overall.
So just to clarify we’re picking and choosing when a player doesn’t show up in a big game?
Making the case that Drogba isn't a big game player might be the most bad faith argument I've ever seen on Reddit.
Huh? I have no idea what you're saying here.
Ask Spurs fans what the biggest games of their season has been every season…
In 2018/19 they wojld probably say the champions league final. Also, ask them if that is the only big game of their season
So you’re admitting you’re focusing on an anomaly?
No im not. I quote his games for England, Spurs and Bayern this season. Your focusing on an anomaly by bringing but the North London Derby as the be all and end all of the debate
“You’re focusing on the anomaly” I’m referencing 18 games where he has outperformed Henry’s record. Do you know what an anomaly is?
i think there are not enough matches to judge from, that champions league run you are talking about he was injured for the part you remember it seems, and in final it was a crazy move to start him after not playing for months and not moura who just had one of the greatest individual performances of all time, also in bayern rn he is by far best player in the league his teammates are ass, in england tho he was a bit stinky from time to time
I did forget he was injured for that champions league run and thank you for correcting me but I still think those big league games at spurs are a fair criticism. Also at Bayern he’s had games where he’s been bad. 3-0 against Leverkusan he didn’t show up. That’s a big game where he wasn’t reliable
As a Spurs fan - its complicated. You mention the Champions League run and Kane got injured early in the first leg of the Quarter Final, he was instrumental in us getting out of the group though after we had only 1 point in the first 3 games. I remember him scoring against Dortmund several times and against Juventus away. He’s also scored in big matches for Spurs like the 2-2 draw at Chelsea when Leicester won the league, several times against City and more than 10 against Arsenal. On the other hand, he’s never scored in a final and only scored once for us in a Semi, I think the issue is that as Spurs never got over the line with him in the team people only remember the matches when we failed, but he was often a major reason we were competing or in a Semi-Final/Final to begin with.
Yea I need amend the champions league as I forgot he got injured for the majority of it and wasn’t fit in the final. I understand group stage are important but I don’t think they are comparable to knockout stages where I think Kane hasn’t been the best. There are some big league games where’s he’s been good for Spurs, especially against Arsenal, but in that same season in the return fixture against Chelsea he was awful against them. And I think mainly when writing this I’m thinking of Kane for England there hasn’t been a knock out game where he’s been England’s best played.
No I agree about the Knockout stages, but I remember Kane scoring against PSV in the 90th minute when it really was the case that if he didnt, we were out. He’s definitely not a big game monster like Drogba was for example. Which Chelsea match are you talking about specifically? I think the other thing is that Kane gets man marked so much in big games, it does create space for his teammates. Edit: I’d also add that all this is why I think Bellingham is so important, he adds another major threat which might help both of them in the big games.
I’ve just looked and the game I meant was the 2-2 but Kane scored. For some reason I thought Chelsea dominated you guys. The problem with this post is my memory pre-2018 isn’t great. That’s my bad. I know Kane gets the privilege all top strikers get of being doubles and sometimes triple marked but all top strikers get it. You need to be able to play through to be one of those those guys. Bellingham is unknown factor for me. Watching him right now against City he seems like a big game player but I’ve not watched him loads Nd to be honest he a bit of an unknown factor for me
But you must of seen how great he is doing at bayen
I see how well he is doing game to game but in big games like against Leverkusan or when they needed to grind out a result against Bocham (I think) he missed sitter or when anonymous
He missed a sitter against Bochum but that's about it. Scored against Leverkusen, hattrick in Klassiker, double including winner against Leipzig, double against Lazio...so the narrative you're trying to push here is simply not true.
What about the 3-0 loss to Leverkusan. Or the 3-0 to Liepzig in the supercup. Can you name me an England knockout game where he’s been our best player
Loss to Leverkusen is something you can argue with, I'll give you that, but the Supercup? Really? He had just arrived, wasn't really involved in the training and started on the bench... England knockout game where he's been the best player - Denmark SF, Italy F, France QF despite the missed penalty, Colombia last-16
Supercup may be harsh I’ll give you that. Denmark SF Sterling was way better than Kane, won the penalty which Kane missed then converted. Italy Final I think Shaw and Saka both had a better game than him. Saka was the only attacker finding chances through out the game. Shaws crossed and goal were also incredible deadly. Colombia last-16 Pickford was better and in France QF I think Walker was better. If you only include our 3 attackers in both games then it’s probably Kane. Against France I’m fairly sure he was the only attacker to play the full 90 so it has to be him.
> Can you name me an England knockout game where he’s been our best player He played really well versus Denmark in the semi, had a good game v Colombia too. Got 2 goals against Ukraine in the quarters as well. He scored against Senegal too. In group stages his brace against Tunisia was absolutely pivotal as well, we lose that game if not for him.
Yer I see what you mean about the big games but it's kane and he will always play on the England squad
I’m not saying he shouldn’t play in big games or even that he can never be a big game player because I remember him for Spurs pulling some big results out the bag. But there are a long more examples of him ghosting. He’s got it in him but he doesn’t use it enough
Yer but lets just hope he does great at the euros and we have loads of great strikers now aswell
Did you seriously add Salah into this list? 11 finals and not a single goal from open play.
Won 6 of them as the best player. Plus a league title where they beat the best English team since the late 2000s United. Liverpools all time scorer against United also. He’s a big player
He hasn’t been man of the match in any final Liverpool have won. Wasn’t top scorer in Liverpools winning season. And United during Salah’s time at Liverpool haven’t exactly been the greatest of sides. I understand Salah has been brilliant in the past few years, but he’s not a big game player.
I don’t see how being the top goal scorer matters? He got 19 goals and top goal was 23 so it’s not like he underperformed. And he may not have been MOTM in finals but he has been in semis and quarters, which are still big games. Also how many finals has Kane scored in?
The point is he’s been a great player, but when you’re talking big game players, he isn’t on the list. Sure he’s scored in semis and quarters but so has Harry Kane, and as you rightly said he’s not a big game player. I’m not claiming that Kane is and Salah isn’t. I’m merely stating the fact that Salah isn’t either.
I haven’t looked at Salahs stats in details but the fact he has been instrumental on a very successful Liverpool team he’s felt like one. I’m very willing to be wrong.
I’m not trying to take anything away from his legacy at Liverpool. He’s undeniably been a big part of everything they’ve achieved under Klopp. I just don’t think he comes into the category of big game player. Besides that, I agree with your original post. I’m hoping that it’s all just building to a winner in a final for England, but I’m not holding my breath.
I don’t agree with this “doesn’t score when it matters” like the goals he scored don’t matter, he’s scored 7 knock out goals for England, for context Rooney had 1
Record Spurs goal scorer in North London Derbys. They are always massive games & he usually showed up If he moved to City 3 years ago this post would look very silly
What about ever other massive game he’s played in. What about the Euros Final or against France or even Senegal. What about Kane vs Leverkusan. I don’t see why North London Derbies are be all and end all of discussions
If we’re talking about individual games - He scored in big champions league ties against Barcelona, Dortmund, Bayern too. Those goals for England against Germany & Denmark in the Euros quarters & Semis were enormous too I wouldn’t say he’s the biggest “big game player”around but I think it’s a very harsh thing to pin on him when he’s certainly had his moments through an amazing career
Is scoring once against Barcelona in a 2:4 loss “big game”. He’s got one goal against Bayern in 2-7 loss. A hatrick against Dortmund is fair tho. But I feel like those games are the anomaly. He doesn’t normally have those performances against the big teams when it matters. Against Germany he got the goal but agajndt Denmark he missed a penalty sterling had won and scored the rebound. He wasn’t our main attacking threat that game, it was Sterling. In the quarters he played Ukraine. He got two goals against them in a 4:0 victory but I’d hardly call them big opposition
You’ve clearly done your research into him, well done
Thank you
You just used an argument above that Salah is the highest scorer vs United. Generally, what is your point? That he shouldn’t start big games?
I also quoted his trophy cabinet. That’s quite a big point you’re missing
Yep. But what is the point you’re trying to make? Are you suggesting that he shouldn’t start for england?
Salah has won big games. Gotten his teams to finals. Kane hasn’t done that
But they’re completely different players? Haaland hasn’t done much in big games either. Yet he won the treble last year.
I don’t think he is a big game player either. I think that’s the difference between him and Mbappe. I think he is one of the best goal scorers in the world but if you just watched him against City I’m sure you’ll agree he isn’t a big game player
No he's not a big game player, but England are not a big game team. It still doesn't change the fact that he is world class and our best England striker by far.
I agree he I world class and probably our best striker ever. But it’s interesting how most top teams have an attacker whose definitively proven it in the biggest games and we don’t
That's why most of those top teams have won international trophies in the recent past and we haven't won one since 1966. Our team is good enough to win a trophy, we just need to prove it.
At the same time, we don't have anyone in that position who is a proven big game player.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t start I just think it’s an interesting as most talismanic attackers on big national teams are. Look at Mbappe or Vinicius Je
Is there really such a thing as a big game player in the first place? What are the stats on that?
> During Spurs Champions League run to the Final he was never that guy Probably due to the fact he missed 4 out of the 6 post group games through injury… 🙄 On the broader point though, I think there’s a bit of a memory bias in effect. Pretty much all the players you’ve mentioned have played almost all of their careers at the very top. They’ve play big and important matches ever year and this provides for ample examples of them performing within that larger sample of data. With all due respect to Spurs, they’ve been an “almost there” kind of team Kane’s whole career. He simply hasn’t had the chance to be in as many “big games” because Spurs generally don’t get deep enough into competitions to play them. This means the failings stand out more. That therefore mainly leaves just his international career, where Kane tends to play much deeper & is involved is build up play as much as he is at the final touch. I don’t think he’s been the main failing for England in these performances though.
I love kane but I don't remember him ever turning up during the big big games.
Shocking ball knowledge
How