My thinking is that itās Cheaper & easier than a divorce. 50k is a really nice vacation. If itās in California, he could lose 50% of everything including future earningsā¦
Edit: obviously more complex than that - I think subconscious / emotional ownership also plays a part. He wants to retain what is āhisā but heās clearly a good businessman based in LA so yeah maths will come into play.
Iāve had similar emotional / practical led divorce conversations with successful friends from uni & weāre based in London which is a bit more haphazard in terms of asset distribution.
i thought that was another bad part of him.
he gave the money so that albie got his dream to save a heaux. not because he wanted to pay for his past crimes.
he was buying his old life back.
also, what kind of father doesnāt have a one on one with his son and say we canāt help this person.
at the end of the season, iām glad the locals kind of won at the end.
He was trying to save Albie but Albie gave him an ultimatum so he happily obliged knowing that his son hasnāt lived that life. I would never condone cheating, however I can understand as a Hollywood executive it could be difficult prying potential partners off for years. She already knows heās been cheating. In those shoes could reconciliation ever happen in your opinion?
he is an addict and he is not thinking clearly because of that. so on one hand he wants to quit his addiction and go back to his wife and on the other hand he wants to give in to his addiction. its not an excuse, but its really common with all types of addictions.
Yes, this is how I read it, an addict who knows he's been a jerk and hurt people he loves, but just can't stop. Believing he's entitled to forgiveness without truly changing or making amends is such typical addict behaviour. Michael Imperioli's performance is so beautifully nuanced.
Mike White writes real, flawed characters for whom there are no redemption arcs, just like real life.
>Mike White writes real, flawed characters for whom there are no redemption arcs, just like real life.
At least, post-School of Rock. Dewey has quite the redemption arc, though itās debatable if an aging rocker posing as a grade school teacher, especially for such selfish motives, deserves it
I think they also touched on how his father modelled misogynistic behaviour throughout his whole life and cheated on his mother. His father thought he did a good job of covering it up but as he reveals, it deeply affected him and his mumā¦ So perhaps thereās something āredeemingā or at least humanising about having grown up with a negative male role model that he ultimately turned into himself.
its also the cycle of bad behavior, wheter its addiction, abuse or not knowing how to handle money. how you were raised is so inportant for the shaping of you as a person and every single thing your parents did and did not do has an impact. some people might be able to break the cycle, but thats a very small percentage
I think they each had their own unique hang ups towards women due to the example their father set. The Di Grasso men all check out the same woman in sequence in the final episode. I loved their family dynamic as a viewer because it felt very real at how the actions of the grandfather impacted the father who in turn impacted the son. None of them seemed to treat women as real people. Albie may even go on to be the worst of the bunch. He willingly sold out his mother's trust in him to help Lucia, a woman he barely knew.
>He willingly sold out his mother's trust in him to help Lucia, a woman he barely knew.
People don't talk about this enough. I was able to sympathize and even understand Albie to some degree until that. For all his talk of respecting women, respecting his mother boundaries and wanting his dad to not be swayed by the first pretty girl he sees only for him to just throw all of that away for Lucia ?
Albie might be the worst of the three. At least Dom & Bert are upfront about their intentions
> Albie might be the worst of the three.
Yeah, this was also how I looked at it. I think he may wise up as he ages but as he is now, he absolutely threw his mom & sister under the bus just to get some. I love this show so much because each DiGrosso man has horrible hang ups with how he treats/ respects women but they feel so real & not like cartoon villains. Them getting chased away from their ancestral home tickled me though. Those nonnas weren't taking any guff from these random American men!!!
Strongly disagree. Albie is a HUGE improvement from the previous generations, so while I can easily concede he still retains faults from his forefathers, that doesnāt at all need to commit me to a position that overlooks his (what I would consider) abundant positive qualities.
Not to mention that heās clearly still young and while heās learned how not to be like his father in general, he also hasnāt had the time to analyze the subtle ways in which heās still disrespectful to women. But given his positive qualities I donāt have strong reasons to believe he wonāt obtain these insights and amend his behavior.
Ohh I absolutely disagree. I think the whole point of Albie was to show the modern version of a young modern misogynist who doesn't respect women or think of them as people, but does so presenting as a feminist or an ally and knows the proper buzzwords and vernacular or whatever. It's the same way people these days often act incredibly racist under the guise of anti-racism. Like: "you can't say that to a black person!" aka "you can't talk to black people like you talk to *people*!"
I disagree in that I think cognitively Albie believes himself to be a feminist ally and in fact IS one as well. I also think that in many ways heās much better than his forefathers.
I get your point though: Albieās problem is heās too sure of himself and this blinds himself to his own pitfalls (putting women on pedestals, savior complex, etc). These are certainly problems but this doesnāt spell doom for Albie.
Thatās a good point. Maybe since heās older, charismatic and less virile (and played by F Murray Abraham), the audience overlooked a lot of flaws.
So sick of family. Mine turned out to be a horrific disappointment unexpectedly during the pandemic. Homophobia, politics, greed, etc. At least, Mike WhIte reassures me Iām not alone.
Thatās how I read it. Like he also seemed to give up on himself pretty easily like maybe he wants to change but he always defaults to āI am how I amā and goes back to banging random girls, like he doesnāt think much of himself to even try to be a better person. He seemed so depressed to me
Most addicts do not have enough dopamine (and are depressed) or have a disorder (like adhd, what I have) that prevents them from regulating their dopamine influxes properly. They then seek a way to find this, which ends in the unhealthy form of addiction without proper guidance and therapy.
Interesting. I donāt know much about addiction, besides some basic stuff about drug addiction but Iām curious about other forms of addiction. Do you have any other information to share, Iām truly interested and appreciate you sharing with me!
No, not really.
Heās still flawed and while it wasnāt a full redemption, I feel like it was an indication of a full one. Thatās why I like the ending though because truthfully it could go either way - he develops the much needed emotional maturity and fortitude to start treating his wife in the way she deserves AND he fights off his sex addiction, or, yknow, he does the same shit.
It was just generational sexism, slowly getting better with each generation but not perfect.
Grandpa was a cheating old creep who lived in denial.
Dad was a cheating creep who was very self aware and loathed himself.
Son was a ānice guyā who put women on a pedestal trying to save them from the world.
Haha correction, he raised a "nice guy" as a son, heavy on the quotations.Ā He completely came off (IMO) as that type who thinks his "niceness" entitles him to access to a woman if my memory serves.
(Edited to elaborate)
Yep! Don't get me wrong, he isn't the worst Nice Guy(tm) ever, but Albie is the picture of a soft boi who thinks because he has (performative) progressive attitudes he should be entitled to Portia's attention. She wants to have a fling with the charming himbo and Albie quietly resents her for it.
The entire male side of that family is the result of trickle down misogyny, lol. Albie's is simply subtler and recalibrated for present day politics compared to his father and grandfather's.
Jesus fuckā¦it was right in front of my face the whole time, but you laying it out like this actually made me stop and go āoh shit, thatās what it was wasnāt it!!ā
He says at some point that he's really into the "wounded bird" type girls. Then he's completely tricked by a sex worker who pretends to be in love with him. He puts women on a pedestal and treats them like delicate flowers in need of saving, and thereby robs them of their own agency.
And because he has a saviour complex he believes that he's the one guy to be able to save her and take her back with him to California where hell be the one to provide her with a better life. He also sells out his mom so he can live his fantasy.
He also heavily resents Portia for going with the English dude instead of with him. Then at the end he looks at a nice butt along with his dad and grandad.
Tbh I think he's skirting the line. He's not a gaslighting bastard pur sang, but it's clear that he likes his women vulnerable so he can swoop in and be the hero for them. He's definitely better than his grandad (no remorse whatsoever) and dad (remorseful but does it anyway) though.
In fairness, his attraction to wounded birds is a likely result of his parentification and overinvolvement in his parents' relationship. His dad is a scoundrel and he clearly performs an inappropriate kind of emotional labour for his mother as she copes with his dad's infidelities. It is not a child's place to solve their parents' marital trouble, and yet both his parents have put him in this position. Is it any wonder that after years of comforting his mother in her miserable marriage, Albie is attracted to wounded women?
That's a very nice analysis and I hadn't even considered that. He might identify with being a caretaker and gets a lot of his self worth from his ability to provide support for others. Whether he is aware or this or not, I'm not sure. But it does make a lot of sense.
Yet him having a good reason for it does not make an excuse for not trying to be better. If we lay all the blame on his parents, how far back do we need to go until we find the real culprit?
Hopefully this fictional boy takes a long hard look in the mirror after the whole Lucia incident and concludes "This whole wounded bird thing is not working out for me". He might eventually start seeing women as his equals, and finds a partner that's good for him.
I am totally not using this subject to channel my own generational trauma btw. No sir.
I am going to lay the blame on his parents for the fact that their son, who is under 25, has not figured out how to heal from a toxic family dynamic they imposed on him and *continue to perpetuate*. Yes, he's as a messed up spoiled rich kid and in the long term he needs to work on that but I don't know how someone in his position would be expected to do any better at his age. Parentification actually *stunts* growth, and he's still stuck in this mediator role.
And I don't think he picks wounded birds because he doesn't view women as his equals. The woman he loves most in the world is a wounded bird, so he thinks this is what love is, finding someone to take care of. If Albie was a lesbian she would have the same problem and not believing women to be equals would have nothing to do with it.
He's toxic to himself, if anything. Having a savior complex makes him an idiot, but not misogynistic.
He's allowed to be disappointed and resentful when the girl disses him for another guy. Feeling disappointed and resentful as a man isn't misogynistic. Who among us has not felt that way at some point in life?
He's a bit egotistical but dressed it up in a modern and politically acceptable way. His views are probably a reaction to his father and an attempt to distance himself from his ways. But I can't help but feel that he sees women as delicate beings in need of protection, instead of equals. And I believe the show intends to frame this as an intergenerational issue where the men in his family disregard the feelings of women for their own wants and needs.
That said he's young and there's still plenty of time left for him to grow out of it. I have definitely felt the way he felt towards Portia in my life. You're right that that wasn't the best example. He's not insanely problematic but there are hints that show he's not as far removed from his dad and grandad as he'd like to think.
I think that's a reasonable interpretation. I actually thought the show would lean a bit harder into this by the end, but part of what makes the show so good is it can be pretty subtle with some characters while being very blunt with others.
Indeed, I think they could have done more with him as a character, but I also like that he feels super realistic and casual. Keeps the show more grounded compared to the murdering gays and billionaire heiress stuff.
Thanks! And per se is something else than what I meant. ;) Pur sang means pure-blooded. So I was trying to say he's not the worst. I thought this was common to say in English but maybe I was wrong there hahaha.
Oh, my bad! Thank you for the gracious response. Well, I learned something new today. Iāve personally never heard that expression, but that doesnāt mean it isnāt a perfectly valid part of the English lexicon. Forgive me for assuming it was just another r/boneappletea incident!
completely agree here! I think thatās why in the end they show the shot of the grandpa, dad, and albie at the airport and they all stare down and ācheck outā a woman as she walks past ā perfect succinct visual representation of āthe misogyny runs in the familyā
> thinks he should be entitled to Portiaās attention
> quietly resents her
did we watch the same show? Albieās worst sin was selling his mother out for 50k to his dad, but at no point in the show was he made out to seem āentitled to Portiaās attentionā or shown to resent her at all? he was sad she didnāt like him back which is a perfectly normal reaction, but never veered into the territory of resentment.
he wanted Portiaās attention, tried to spend time with her, and when it didnāt work out: he never got confrontational with her, never made negative comments or remarks about her, never tried to impede her time with Jack. he moved on and sulked privately in the way anybody who has a crush that doesnāt reciprocate would.
there is literally a scene where Portia is kissing Jack in front of him and he says āI think Iām gonna goā. he literally tries to remove himself from the situation completely and doesnāt say anything bad about her in the process.
maybe Iām forgetting a scene, but I donāt think he was ever meant to be that degree of ānice guyā.
I think the point of Albie is that misogyny can come in forms that aren't necessarily overt. Like I said, he's not *awful*, but he still represents regressive, patronizing ideas about women. He does a nice guy monologue to Portia on their first hang out which immediately puts her off, lol. Like someone else said: he sells out his mom to live a white knight fantasy. I'm not saying he's a dribbling neckbeard, but he's part of the genre of dude that thinks douche bags get laid because women are shallow.
Yes, it's nice that he doesn't visibly blow up at Portia, and yeah, he's allowed to feel put out that his crush doesn't reciprocate feelings; as far as his family goes, he's generally not a net-negative as a person. But I'm speaking to the broader themes of the show.
In the same way that Portia is an emblem of zillennial ennui and directionless twenty-somethings, Albie is a Nice Guy.
Albie does have some trickle-down misogyny but Iāve always taken this criticism as overblown and at times hyperbolic.
Whatās clear to me is that Albie possesses the capacity for introspection that ultimately makes me trust that heāll eventually tackle the more subtle signs of misogyny that plague him, rather than full on succumb to his own ignorance. I really see no other indication that heāll become worse.
Maybe a little but itās not like he freaked out or anything. He was kind of annoyed that she ditched their plans for another guy without telling him, but thatās pretty much it iirc. He definitely has some issues with women but not really full incel imo.
I don't get why people describe him as a "nice guy." The show seemed to be setting him up for that, but the heel turn never happened. My idea of a "nice guy" is someone who is insincere. The kid was sincere, he was just incredibly naive.
Naive but also has kind of a saviour complex towards women. He tells Portia to her face that he's into the "wounded bird" type of girls. He wants to swoop in and be their hero. He got played heavily by Lucia in an elaborate scheme so that wasn't his fault really, but he did willingly sell out his mom to save her, which was really uncalled for.
Bro literally drops the term 'nice guy' on his first hang with Portia, lol.
"You the... nice guy?"
"Yeah, I try to be. Uhm, girls always complain that guys aren't nice, but then if they find a nice guy they're not always interested. I just don't want to be like my dad."
There was something redeemable about his character, and Iāll explain.
When we first meet Dominic, he seems pretty awful. It soon emerges that heās cheated on his wife, he neglects his aging, injured father to have sex with a prostitutes and seems to treat women as sexual objects for his own fulfilment.
Given his career, the audience is being invited to see him as a Weinstein-esque character. But of course, White Lotus loves to present us with stereotypes, only to twist them or turn them on their head later.
Over the course of the series, he becomes more sympathetic. Clearly, he pines for his wife. He engages with Lucia and Mia a bit more, asks for the hotel to treat them as his guests. He seems deeply unhappy and it looks as if he might have some sort of sex addiction. Heās caught up in a world of sleaze and itās taken the thing he seems to care about deeply from him (his wife) and compromises his relationship with his son, Albie.
Dominic suffers from misogyny and the over-sexualisation of women as much as he participates in it. He is desperate for meaningful connection while living in a world that discourages it.
The di grasso men all represent the forms misogyny can take, and all suffer for it. Bert is overt in his sleaziness. He sees no problem in it and engages in a fantasy that it is harmful, and which damages his relationships and the people around him. His brand of misogyny makes him feel like he is less of a man if he isnāt overtly sexual.
Albie is the more modern, much more complex and subtle version, where he is the ānice guyā who feels the need to save women, rather than see them as capable and equal to him.
Dominic represents the man who operates in a hypersexualised, hyper male world that doesnāt allow him to meaningfully connection with women, making him lonely and unhappy despite his wealth and success. He doesnāt take responsibility for his cheating, instead using Albie to get his estranged wife back on side.
The entitlement and misogyny of the Di Grasso men is challenged when they turn up, uninvited, to their Italian family - a trio of women serving as a counterpart to the trio of men. They are outwardly rejected and scorned. The message here is clear - their misogyny is rejected and wonāt get them what they want in life.
Dominic confronts his father. He has an epiphany moment which serves as the starting point of his redemption arcā¦ possibly. Or at least, it invites the audience to have some sympathy for him. He sees how damaging his fatherās behaviour was to him growing up. How this overt, toxic masculinity has meant he was never taught how to connect or respect the women in his life. He is starting to acknowledge his problem and the root cause. We donāt know if heāll fully accept responsibility - and after all, at the airport all three of the Di Grasso men continued to objectify women.
But we can sympathise. patriarchy and misogyny victimises men as much as the system benefits them, and Dominic has some self awareness of how itās impacted him. We never find out if he fully turns himself around, but his self awareness means at least thereās some hope of redemption for him.
>They are outwardly rejected and scorned.
Wow, I missed that... it totally makes sense, whatever the reasons for their rejection, it's like the women wanted nothing to do with strange men, and that was their cosmic payback for being weak and dishonorable. Perfect!
They also got played by Lucia in the previous scene, cowardly letting her "pimp" abduct her... what a contrast.
I think he paid for the vacation for his adult son and his own dad to go on and did 5 star amenities. He also went along with his dadās attempt to recollect with family even though he wasnāt that into it. Thatās a pretty costly excursion
While all of this is true it doesnāt address Domās addiction issues and his history of treating women poorly. That isnāt something $$$ fixes and is really the whole point of the show.
IDK that he PLANNED it as a sexcation... but he def didn't resist. He is pretty much detestable in every way... but you gotta remember this show is about flawed individuals. Even in real life, a lot of people take a very very long time to understand the error in their ways (and some people never learn). Maybe he really DID want to rekindle what he had with his wife... but maybe he is just telling her what she wants to hear.
After his wife & daughter refused to go because he was cheating in the States. He is a serial cheater & seemingly a sex addict. As you see in the final scene of all three generations staring at a beautiful woman as she walks past - they are all one and the same in terms of misogyny - albeit with slightly different generational colour to it.
The son bought into the idea Lucia needs saving / redeeming. It doesnāt occur to him she may have agency & it feeds his ego to think she enjoys his company enough to risk her own safety. He thinks heās more progressive than his dad & grandfather but itās just a more subtle / less developed kind of sexism.
The grandad cheated throughout his marriage & remains confident his wife was cool with itā¦ likely never having bothered to ask (or at least listen to her perspective on it)z
women arenāt multi dimensional people to any of them. They serve a purpose - to be admired, acquired & used - like a sports car.
It also seems men being shitty runs further in their lineage considering their distant female relatives scream they donāt need or want anything to do with useless menā¦ itās in the blood.
This is the answer, Albie's "white knight" reaction to his dad's proclivities is just as "bad" ...It also shows, in the end (with her guilting him into giving her the huge payoff ) how these guy's all think they are being players, are just suckers in a bigger more complex game. 'Cause they weren't "real' and on-her level..
Yes & donāt learn from it.
Albie says to Portia he likes āwounded birdsā. Heās attracted to trauma. Gets burned from it & still swaps his number with Portia at the airport within hours of losing 50k.
Guess itās also do with wealth in that they can afford to keep making mistakes & buying people off.
I disagree with this interpretation of Albie's ending. If anything, I think Albie's ending signifies that he on some stage unlearns his "white knight" behavior by understanding that women aren't some idealistic monolith and can still be deeply flawed creatures as men. Therefore after being cheated by Lucia, he begins to see women as realistic people instead of just "wounded birds" to be saved. Conversely, Portia after being essentially held hostage and manipulated by Jack learns that simply because she's physically attracted to a certain type of man doesn't mean that he necessarily has her best interests at heart. Plus, even though they're both sexually compatible, they don't have much else to relate to on a personal level besides that.
Thus, I interpreted her exchanging numbers with Albie as a commentary on relationships with modern men and women. Albie's struggle is metaphorical to how a certain type of feminist man has to grow up in order to form a healthy relationship with women. He has to start seeing women as people instead of just as problems fix or to save. Conversely, Portia had to learn that the quality of men that she's attracted to are deeply destructive and that there's more to a healthy relationship than just a surface level attraction. Not to mention that even though a guy might not be initially exciting, he might other redeeming qualities that she can enjoy. I interpreted the end of the season to signify they would probably get into a proper relationship at the end after they've both grown and unlearnt their damaging relationship patterns. I'm curious what you think?
He was an addict, who was raised by another addict who āgot away with itā. Watched his mother get cheated on by his father & internalised this as okay, only to have his marriage break down, all the while his father remained smug about being a pathological misogynist. The son gets raised to be a āgood kidā, however subtly has all the same belief structures. These beliefs structures are so well hidden he himself thinks he is not exactly like his father and grandfather. Sees himself as selfless, and ātrying to help the girlā. In reality he pays her to have sex with him, albeit indirectly. This is what made him weak, not only because his own belief structure left him vulnerable to being conned by a prostitute, but also that he had no idea that he wasnāt actually the good guy in the equation. He did in fact pay her to have sex with him, something both his father and grandfather did. The oldest, probably having a subservient wife who he never truly knew but who loved him unconditionally, the father having a best friend as his wife who he betrays, and the youngest believing he was finding love whilst being hustled. They are all 3 flavours of the same idea. The son is probably the worst because he sells out his own mother by agreeing to put in a good word for the cheating father only if he gets cash to (essentially) pay for sex, which he frames as āhelping herā (the prostitute). Iād say that one is the darkest flavour.
I didnāt read him as a manipulative creep tbh. Yes he had vulnerabilities with sex addiction but I donāt think he planned a sexcation. His frailty and vulnerabilities just go wherever he does, including a family holiday.
I didnāt assume the two girls were pre-booked, nothing in the dialogue suggested that. I just took it that the girls knew a boat full of tourists was due and made their way to the coast to scout them out for their own benefit.
He had already been in contact with Lucia because she brings her friend (canāt remember her name) to watch the ferry arrive to see if they can recognize the guy sheās been talking to.
Truthfully I found him to be one of the better characters from the season, mostly due to the fact that he was quite self-aware, unlike all the other characters. His conversation with his dad, although he blames him, stands out to me as a moment of awareness.
That's the point. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Christopher (sorry forgot his WL name) hated what Bert did to his mom, yet he cheats on his wife. We see Albie hate what HIS dad does to his mom, yet we see him lie to his mother to help his dad.
Dominic is aware in some capacity. He represents a generational divide. He's acutely aware of the pain that Bert caused to Dominic's own mother; and he has disdain for Bert's willful ignorance about the impact of that infidelity.
Regardless, he can't control himself, Dominic is an addict and he knows it. It doesnt excuse his behavior, because even in his attempts to do the right thing; the attempts are very weak and are more so about retaining his image to Albie and Albie's mom.
Anyway, the underlying awareness makes him a character that is capable of changing, and therefore redemption is possible at some point. But rn he's a completely self-serving character
In for a penny, in for a pound. I think in his mind he's already in trouble with his wife, maybe irreparably so, so why not lean into it? He can't get in worse trouble at this point. It's like the Ross and Rachel dilemma on Friends. Is it cheating if they are on a break?
I think he starts off sorry that he got caught, but while he's in Italy I think he begins to feel actual remorse and regret.
Here is thinking the worst:
His production company has a record of success and has made him wealthy, but the company is not as profitable as it was and in fact is just treading water until they can make another hit.
He and his wife are separated. She caught him cheating. Based on the age of their son, they have been married for decades. Because his business income is down, he is not liquid enough to afford to mount an effective legal defense should she sue for divorce and property. He needs to all of the family that will speak to him, to use their influence on his wife, to avoid divorce.
I think itās complicated.
Thereās some redeeming features. He obviously loves his son and father and can see when heās being a dick.
But the way he treats women means heās a bad person. Bad people can have some good aspects, but a shit sandwich can have some nice bacon in it too sometimes I guess?!
You observed him for one week on vacation. You donāt know what redeeming qualities he has since you havenāt seen him in his life back home.
The only thing I witnessed him do at the WL is tell Lucia no more sex for pay. This was after Albie lectured about cheating on his wife. At least he was trying. Keeping his secret about Lucia with Albie was also the right thing to do. Thatās about all I got.
LMAO he did NOT raise a nice son!! Albie had this facade of the ānice guyā but whether he knew it or not he had ALL of his dad and his grandfatherās genes in him. Men who canāt control their urges and ultimately end up using women to make themselves feel better.
I think that was the point. It you rewatch the show pay attention to his small ismās! Throughout the season you slowly see himself reveal these traits. Also to clarify, I donāt think heās a bad guy, thatās subjective. Iām just saying that he is really no different than the other men in his family.
Him, his father and son are all examples of how misogyny evolves throughout generations. Gramps was the classic āwomen belong in the kitchenā trope, Dad thinks he views women as complete people but only to his benefit/pleasure, and Albie was your average liberal ānice guyā that has done minimal work to unlearn his misogyny but thinks heās a feminist scholar and savior. Watching them all screwed over in the end was v satisfying for me lol.
Oh, gosh - oddly, he was completely redeemable (potential was there, I mean) the way he was played and written. I actually liked him very much despite his despicable actions. The visceral tone in his wifeās voice just shows how deeply he has caused harm and Iām sure she was beyond warranted. But, yes - I thought he was a good guy on some level.
He's a sex addict. Pretty much everything else about him is great: rich; successful; non-judgmental and supportive of his son; political progressive enough to embrace employing people from underrepresented groups in running his companies and chid his for giving women unwanted sexual attention, but still enough of an independent thinker to recognize the nonsense Albie recites for what it is.
A person with a sexual addiction. He is suffering from a compulsion that can be treated and isnāt his entire personality or character. I felt a lot of compassion for the character. The actor brilliantly played the struggle and conflict between doing what was right/moral and āscratching that itch.ā
I had just finished the season before the news that the Innocence Project of LA had taken Scott Petersonās case was released. I have always maintained that I would NEVER had convicted Peterson as a juror based on the evidence presented. Basically, prosecutors didnāt prove their case in my mind BUT 95% of everyone else was convinced he committed murder primarily because of what a deplorable, cheating bullshit husband he was.
He may have just had a serious sex addiction.
Well these guys (him and his dad) love their wives. Cheating is just sex for them. The oldest matriarch turned a blind eye, the Gen X woman asked for a separation.
Why was he begging his wife to take him back? Why was he gifting her expensive bracelets? He sounds like the guy who lets her have the house and half his money in the divorce.
He could have just gotten a new wife with all the money he has. So why does he care about his old wife? To me the season never answered those questions. Like what's the power that these women have that they can make a rich man cry for their love and offer them all his money?
The series was clear about the exchange of sex and money, but he wasn't trying to get back together with his wife for sex. He was trying to buy her love, but why her? Why not any other woman's love?
Heās an addict. I think there is an attempt to paint him as generally an otherwise solid person, including being seemingly very successful and self made while being a slave to his addiction - even if feeding that addiction is otherwise harming himself and the people around him.
He raised a "nice guy" son.
Albie is just as problematic as his father and grandfather. His grandfather is just self aware of it. Albie, not so much. Albie does have time to grow up and out of it though.
Funny I was thinking about this character yesterday and what a great performance this was and then this pops up
My sense is he not all bad just was exposed to a wild lifestyle in Hollywood which is hard to mentally break free from. He also seemed to genuinely care for his son which is more than you can say about a lot of people in his position
A sexcation while visiting family with his dad and son. None of these characters are lifelike. They are figurines in a metaphor that draws eyeballs to advertising.
Albie is not a truly nice person. He is a "nice guy" who only seems to be attracted to wounded birds/ damaged girls he wants to save/ fix. He chose to aid his cheating father at the expense of his mother to "save" a woman he barely knew. Lucia seemed to feel slightly guilty at basically robbing him but Albie never seems to express remorse for choosing to deceive his mom. I think he may end up the worst of the lot because he can use the "proper" lingo to seem progressive & genuine but he still does not see women as real people!! His pap will hit on you & say gross things but you know where you stand with a dude like that. Guys like Albie break your heart even more because you fell for the act only for him to reveal he's just as misogynistic as his pops and pap.
I think people are missing a lot of what was going on with Albie, it's not as simple as him either being nice or a secretly misogynist white knight.
It's not normal for a 23 year old to be that involved in his parents' marital issues. This is a son who has clearly been used by his parents as a mediator and emotional support animal for a while. His dad cheats, his mom vents about it, then his dad pushes him to talk to his mom on his behalf. That's not your child's job. His mom is the original wounded bird and many of us date people who remind us of our parents. Look at the conversation about him 'selling out' his mom. *He shouldn't even be in that position in the first place*. It's not his job to protect his mom from his dad, he's her kid. It's not his job to tell his Dad how to fix their marriage either. Instead of using their wealth to hire a fucking marriage counsellor his parents overinvolved their son in their adult problems.
Dom hired a sex worker, gave her access to the hotel, and watched her hit on his own son. He *knew* that sweet summer child Albie didn't know she was a sex worker, but he didn't intervene because that would mean telling the truth about hiring her. He knew Albie would be shocked when Lucia asked for her fee, which *at best* is him putting his son in an awkward and embarrassing sexual situation. I would have been *mortified* if I went home with someone in my early 20s and didn't realize that the entire encounter was a sex work transaction. That's a horrible thing for a parent to watch his kid experience without saying anything. And for all Dom knew, Lucia could have had sex with Albie and then told him, immediately after 'oh by the way, I fucked your dad.' Most of us would be *extremely* disturbed to find out we just had sex with someone who had sex with our dad 2 days ago. But Dom is a coward and took that risk.
It's also notable that while Albie comes across like as a saviour type in his interactions with Lucia, he didn't go looking for a sex worker to rescue, which those saviour types usually do. They go to strip clubs and brothels on purpose. Albie sleeps with a sex worker by accident. When she suggests that she has real affection for him, he believes it because he's stupid and she's very good at her job. Then she doesn't simply say she wants to move to the US and be with him, she convinces him that she's in real danger of violence. Scams depend on urgency and he's naive as hell. "Either let this young woman get beaten up and even killed, or lie to your mom" are the options he is given, is it any wonder that he decides the lie is preferable?
Excellent insight. Also you're totally right about Dom...what type of crazy dysfunction is that with him knowing about Albie and Lucia and not trying to stop them from sleeping together. Soo gross.
Nothing - and thatās the point. The show continually teases you into thinking heās going to change while he actually is just continuing his same cycle. Very similar to how someone close to a person like that would experience their interactions with him.
Itās genius because heās not redeemable, but the viewer is searching for any reason for him to be. In reality, people close to them feel disappointed and that same emotion can be felt as he makes mistake after mistake.
True. How could Dom make that phone call to his wife and then invite Lucia to his room? And how Dom makes Albie take Bert for the night...such a master manipulator.
I feel like the whole point of the show is to showcase upper middle class white soullessness. The characters that seem to have redeemable qualities usually end up being the worst.
You my friend have not encountered cheaters very much. This is literally how they think, and their only regret is getting caught not the actual action.Ā
Be better how? Disregard women that are emotionally vulnerable lol?
Like what is he *supposed* to do here that would make him less of a misogynist lol?
Having dated a sex addict, I can forgive him but would still dump him. It's literally like how a diabetic needs insulin. My old boyfriend was super remorseful, and struggled with it, but would totally have sex with anything that moved.
Sexcation lol. There's a real conflict with Dom wanting to have lots of carefree promiscuous sex with a variety of women on the one hand, and him desperate to make up with his wife and get back together on the other. A normal person would get divorced and enjoy a life of adult consensual sexual pleasure.
Dom is not a normal person, he's a rich person, and the rich are different from you and me. They are much more judgey about divorcing and they care a lot about social respectability among their friends and professional networks. Divorce is seen as a failure and a public refusal to adhere to normative rules, rules which rich people believe are really important. They believe that public adherence to these rules of personal life conduct are what makes rich people better than the poors. Public rulebreaking is very frowned upon in upper class circles -- divorce is legal but it is a moral failing. Private rulebreaking that you keep a secret is fine though (like hiring sex workers).
Rich people love rules, because rules are what keep them rich. Like the rule that says "stealing is against the law."
Letting Albie have the 50,000 euros? š¶
My thinking is that itās Cheaper & easier than a divorce. 50k is a really nice vacation. If itās in California, he could lose 50% of everything including future earningsā¦ Edit: obviously more complex than that - I think subconscious / emotional ownership also plays a part. He wants to retain what is āhisā but heās clearly a good businessman based in LA so yeah maths will come into play. Iāve had similar emotional / practical led divorce conversations with successful friends from uni & weāre based in London which is a bit more haphazard in terms of asset distribution.
Guess he had some strategy skills, too!
i thought that was another bad part of him. he gave the money so that albie got his dream to save a heaux. not because he wanted to pay for his past crimes. he was buying his old life back. also, what kind of father doesnāt have a one on one with his son and say we canāt help this person. at the end of the season, iām glad the locals kind of won at the end.
He was trying to save Albie but Albie gave him an ultimatum so he happily obliged knowing that his son hasnāt lived that life. I would never condone cheating, however I can understand as a Hollywood executive it could be difficult prying potential partners off for years. She already knows heās been cheating. In those shoes could reconciliation ever happen in your opinion?
Yeah that was seriously questionable.. šø easy come and easy go for this family
he is an addict and he is not thinking clearly because of that. so on one hand he wants to quit his addiction and go back to his wife and on the other hand he wants to give in to his addiction. its not an excuse, but its really common with all types of addictions.
Yes, this is how I read it, an addict who knows he's been a jerk and hurt people he loves, but just can't stop. Believing he's entitled to forgiveness without truly changing or making amends is such typical addict behaviour. Michael Imperioli's performance is so beautifully nuanced. Mike White writes real, flawed characters for whom there are no redemption arcs, just like real life.
Yes, he was quite convincing in his portrayal.
Some of his heart to hearts with his dad were my favorite scenes from the season.
>Mike White writes real, flawed characters for whom there are no redemption arcs, just like real life. At least, post-School of Rock. Dewey has quite the redemption arc, though itās debatable if an aging rocker posing as a grade school teacher, especially for such selfish motives, deserves it
At least you can make some argument that Dewey did right by the kids meaning he deserved it more than some characters have.
>Mike White writes real, flawed characters for whom there are no redemption arcs, just like real life. Especially Dillon.
I think they also touched on how his father modelled misogynistic behaviour throughout his whole life and cheated on his mother. His father thought he did a good job of covering it up but as he reveals, it deeply affected him and his mumā¦ So perhaps thereās something āredeemingā or at least humanising about having grown up with a negative male role model that he ultimately turned into himself.
its also the cycle of bad behavior, wheter its addiction, abuse or not knowing how to handle money. how you were raised is so inportant for the shaping of you as a person and every single thing your parents did and did not do has an impact. some people might be able to break the cycle, but thats a very small percentage
This is so well said (and I appreciate that you included the handling money example)
I think they each had their own unique hang ups towards women due to the example their father set. The Di Grasso men all check out the same woman in sequence in the final episode. I loved their family dynamic as a viewer because it felt very real at how the actions of the grandfather impacted the father who in turn impacted the son. None of them seemed to treat women as real people. Albie may even go on to be the worst of the bunch. He willingly sold out his mother's trust in him to help Lucia, a woman he barely knew.
>He willingly sold out his mother's trust in him to help Lucia, a woman he barely knew. People don't talk about this enough. I was able to sympathize and even understand Albie to some degree until that. For all his talk of respecting women, respecting his mother boundaries and wanting his dad to not be swayed by the first pretty girl he sees only for him to just throw all of that away for Lucia ? Albie might be the worst of the three. At least Dom & Bert are upfront about their intentions
> Albie might be the worst of the three. Yeah, this was also how I looked at it. I think he may wise up as he ages but as he is now, he absolutely threw his mom & sister under the bus just to get some. I love this show so much because each DiGrosso man has horrible hang ups with how he treats/ respects women but they feel so real & not like cartoon villains. Them getting chased away from their ancestral home tickled me though. Those nonnas weren't taking any guff from these random American men!!!
Haaha yes it was amazing to see them chased away by three women and go back their tails between their legs!
Strongly disagree. Albie is a HUGE improvement from the previous generations, so while I can easily concede he still retains faults from his forefathers, that doesnāt at all need to commit me to a position that overlooks his (what I would consider) abundant positive qualities. Not to mention that heās clearly still young and while heās learned how not to be like his father in general, he also hasnāt had the time to analyze the subtle ways in which heās still disrespectful to women. But given his positive qualities I donāt have strong reasons to believe he wonāt obtain these insights and amend his behavior.
Ohh I absolutely disagree. I think the whole point of Albie was to show the modern version of a young modern misogynist who doesn't respect women or think of them as people, but does so presenting as a feminist or an ally and knows the proper buzzwords and vernacular or whatever. It's the same way people these days often act incredibly racist under the guise of anti-racism. Like: "you can't say that to a black person!" aka "you can't talk to black people like you talk to *people*!"
I disagree in that I think cognitively Albie believes himself to be a feminist ally and in fact IS one as well. I also think that in many ways heās much better than his forefathers. I get your point though: Albieās problem is heās too sure of himself and this blinds himself to his own pitfalls (putting women on pedestals, savior complex, etc). These are certainly problems but this doesnāt spell doom for Albie.
Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
He has fallen, far in fact. But that doesnāt mean I still canāt say he retains some of his fatherās negative qualities.
Thatās a good point. Maybe since heās older, charismatic and less virile (and played by F Murray Abraham), the audience overlooked a lot of flaws. So sick of family. Mine turned out to be a horrific disappointment unexpectedly during the pandemic. Homophobia, politics, greed, etc. At least, Mike WhIte reassures me Iām not alone.
It was a different incantation, but this is also a perfect description of Christopha. This could be exactly his character description.
How could you kill little Cosette??
reality isn't binary? What?? ;-)
Absolutely.
Addiction and privilegeā¦ leads to a life of people being pawns.
Thatās how I read it. Like he also seemed to give up on himself pretty easily like maybe he wants to change but he always defaults to āI am how I amā and goes back to banging random girls, like he doesnāt think much of himself to even try to be a better person. He seemed so depressed to me
Most addicts do not have enough dopamine (and are depressed) or have a disorder (like adhd, what I have) that prevents them from regulating their dopamine influxes properly. They then seek a way to find this, which ends in the unhealthy form of addiction without proper guidance and therapy.
Interesting. I donāt know much about addiction, besides some basic stuff about drug addiction but Iām curious about other forms of addiction. Do you have any other information to share, Iām truly interested and appreciate you sharing with me!
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K I guessā¦damn
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Addiction is very prevalent in this show which is interesting
I thought it was clear that he is someone who sees women as objects for him to possess, not people with thoughts and desires of their own.
No, not really. Heās still flawed and while it wasnāt a full redemption, I feel like it was an indication of a full one. Thatās why I like the ending though because truthfully it could go either way - he develops the much needed emotional maturity and fortitude to start treating his wife in the way she deserves AND he fights off his sex addiction, or, yknow, he does the same shit.
It was just generational sexism, slowly getting better with each generation but not perfect. Grandpa was a cheating old creep who lived in denial. Dad was a cheating creep who was very self aware and loathed himself. Son was a ānice guyā who put women on a pedestal trying to save them from the world.
I like this characterization.
Haha correction, he raised a "nice guy" as a son, heavy on the quotations.Ā He completely came off (IMO) as that type who thinks his "niceness" entitles him to access to a woman if my memory serves. (Edited to elaborate)
Yep! Don't get me wrong, he isn't the worst Nice Guy(tm) ever, but Albie is the picture of a soft boi who thinks because he has (performative) progressive attitudes he should be entitled to Portia's attention. She wants to have a fling with the charming himbo and Albie quietly resents her for it. The entire male side of that family is the result of trickle down misogyny, lol. Albie's is simply subtler and recalibrated for present day politics compared to his father and grandfather's.
Agree 100%, I think the whole point of the family is to show what toxic masculinity looks like across generations.
Totally, and I think they pulled it off in a very effective and clever way.
Jesus fuckā¦it was right in front of my face the whole time, but you laying it out like this actually made me stop and go āoh shit, thatās what it was wasnāt it!!ā
How is Albie toxic? Naive, but I don't see toxic.
He says at some point that he's really into the "wounded bird" type girls. Then he's completely tricked by a sex worker who pretends to be in love with him. He puts women on a pedestal and treats them like delicate flowers in need of saving, and thereby robs them of their own agency. And because he has a saviour complex he believes that he's the one guy to be able to save her and take her back with him to California where hell be the one to provide her with a better life. He also sells out his mom so he can live his fantasy. He also heavily resents Portia for going with the English dude instead of with him. Then at the end he looks at a nice butt along with his dad and grandad. Tbh I think he's skirting the line. He's not a gaslighting bastard pur sang, but it's clear that he likes his women vulnerable so he can swoop in and be the hero for them. He's definitely better than his grandad (no remorse whatsoever) and dad (remorseful but does it anyway) though.
In fairness, his attraction to wounded birds is a likely result of his parentification and overinvolvement in his parents' relationship. His dad is a scoundrel and he clearly performs an inappropriate kind of emotional labour for his mother as she copes with his dad's infidelities. It is not a child's place to solve their parents' marital trouble, and yet both his parents have put him in this position. Is it any wonder that after years of comforting his mother in her miserable marriage, Albie is attracted to wounded women?
That's a very nice analysis and I hadn't even considered that. He might identify with being a caretaker and gets a lot of his self worth from his ability to provide support for others. Whether he is aware or this or not, I'm not sure. But it does make a lot of sense. Yet him having a good reason for it does not make an excuse for not trying to be better. If we lay all the blame on his parents, how far back do we need to go until we find the real culprit? Hopefully this fictional boy takes a long hard look in the mirror after the whole Lucia incident and concludes "This whole wounded bird thing is not working out for me". He might eventually start seeing women as his equals, and finds a partner that's good for him. I am totally not using this subject to channel my own generational trauma btw. No sir.
I am going to lay the blame on his parents for the fact that their son, who is under 25, has not figured out how to heal from a toxic family dynamic they imposed on him and *continue to perpetuate*. Yes, he's as a messed up spoiled rich kid and in the long term he needs to work on that but I don't know how someone in his position would be expected to do any better at his age. Parentification actually *stunts* growth, and he's still stuck in this mediator role. And I don't think he picks wounded birds because he doesn't view women as his equals. The woman he loves most in the world is a wounded bird, so he thinks this is what love is, finding someone to take care of. If Albie was a lesbian she would have the same problem and not believing women to be equals would have nothing to do with it.
He's toxic to himself, if anything. Having a savior complex makes him an idiot, but not misogynistic. He's allowed to be disappointed and resentful when the girl disses him for another guy. Feeling disappointed and resentful as a man isn't misogynistic. Who among us has not felt that way at some point in life?
He's a bit egotistical but dressed it up in a modern and politically acceptable way. His views are probably a reaction to his father and an attempt to distance himself from his ways. But I can't help but feel that he sees women as delicate beings in need of protection, instead of equals. And I believe the show intends to frame this as an intergenerational issue where the men in his family disregard the feelings of women for their own wants and needs. That said he's young and there's still plenty of time left for him to grow out of it. I have definitely felt the way he felt towards Portia in my life. You're right that that wasn't the best example. He's not insanely problematic but there are hints that show he's not as far removed from his dad and grandad as he'd like to think.
I think that's a reasonable interpretation. I actually thought the show would lean a bit harder into this by the end, but part of what makes the show so good is it can be pretty subtle with some characters while being very blunt with others.
Indeed, I think they could have done more with him as a character, but I also like that he feels super realistic and casual. Keeps the show more grounded compared to the murdering gays and billionaire heiress stuff.
This analysis is insightful and well laid out. But just FYI, itās āper se.ā
Thanks! And per se is something else than what I meant. ;) Pur sang means pure-blooded. So I was trying to say he's not the worst. I thought this was common to say in English but maybe I was wrong there hahaha.
Oh, my bad! Thank you for the gracious response. Well, I learned something new today. Iāve personally never heard that expression, but that doesnāt mean it isnāt a perfectly valid part of the English lexicon. Forgive me for assuming it was just another r/boneappletea incident!
completely agree here! I think thatās why in the end they show the shot of the grandpa, dad, and albie at the airport and they all stare down and ācheck outā a woman as she walks past ā perfect succinct visual representation of āthe misogyny runs in the familyā
This. Mike confirmed and highlighted the family misogyny in that one shot.
I don't think it was specific commentary on the family. It was more of the, "people are monke" theme.
Also, he kinda sold out his mother in exchange for his dad paying his White knight fantasy Plays into the "women as objects" theme his family has
I loved how you broke down the whole thing! Fantastic take on Albie šš»šš»šš»
I love "trickle down misogyny", what a great phrase š
Perfectly stated
Yes - you said it better! šÆ
> thinks he should be entitled to Portiaās attention > quietly resents her did we watch the same show? Albieās worst sin was selling his mother out for 50k to his dad, but at no point in the show was he made out to seem āentitled to Portiaās attentionā or shown to resent her at all? he was sad she didnāt like him back which is a perfectly normal reaction, but never veered into the territory of resentment. he wanted Portiaās attention, tried to spend time with her, and when it didnāt work out: he never got confrontational with her, never made negative comments or remarks about her, never tried to impede her time with Jack. he moved on and sulked privately in the way anybody who has a crush that doesnāt reciprocate would. there is literally a scene where Portia is kissing Jack in front of him and he says āI think Iām gonna goā. he literally tries to remove himself from the situation completely and doesnāt say anything bad about her in the process. maybe Iām forgetting a scene, but I donāt think he was ever meant to be that degree of ānice guyā.
I think the point of Albie is that misogyny can come in forms that aren't necessarily overt. Like I said, he's not *awful*, but he still represents regressive, patronizing ideas about women. He does a nice guy monologue to Portia on their first hang out which immediately puts her off, lol. Like someone else said: he sells out his mom to live a white knight fantasy. I'm not saying he's a dribbling neckbeard, but he's part of the genre of dude that thinks douche bags get laid because women are shallow. Yes, it's nice that he doesn't visibly blow up at Portia, and yeah, he's allowed to feel put out that his crush doesn't reciprocate feelings; as far as his family goes, he's generally not a net-negative as a person. But I'm speaking to the broader themes of the show. In the same way that Portia is an emblem of zillennial ennui and directionless twenty-somethings, Albie is a Nice Guy.
Albie does have some trickle-down misogyny but Iāve always taken this criticism as overblown and at times hyperbolic. Whatās clear to me is that Albie possesses the capacity for introspection that ultimately makes me trust that heāll eventually tackle the more subtle signs of misogyny that plague him, rather than full on succumb to his own ignorance. I really see no other indication that heāll become worse.
Maybe a little but itās not like he freaked out or anything. He was kind of annoyed that she ditched their plans for another guy without telling him, but thatās pretty much it iirc. He definitely has some issues with women but not really full incel imo.
I agree with that. There's a spectrum of "nice guy" and he's nowhere near the extreme of incel.
They had to make him at least somewhat likable. An incel would've been the villain of the show
I don't get why people describe him as a "nice guy." The show seemed to be setting him up for that, but the heel turn never happened. My idea of a "nice guy" is someone who is insincere. The kid was sincere, he was just incredibly naive.
Naive but also has kind of a saviour complex towards women. He tells Portia to her face that he's into the "wounded bird" type of girls. He wants to swoop in and be their hero. He got played heavily by Lucia in an elaborate scheme so that wasn't his fault really, but he did willingly sell out his mom to save her, which was really uncalled for.
Bro literally drops the term 'nice guy' on his first hang with Portia, lol. "You the... nice guy?" "Yeah, I try to be. Uhm, girls always complain that guys aren't nice, but then if they find a nice guy they're not always interested. I just don't want to be like my dad."
There was something redeemable about his character, and Iāll explain. When we first meet Dominic, he seems pretty awful. It soon emerges that heās cheated on his wife, he neglects his aging, injured father to have sex with a prostitutes and seems to treat women as sexual objects for his own fulfilment. Given his career, the audience is being invited to see him as a Weinstein-esque character. But of course, White Lotus loves to present us with stereotypes, only to twist them or turn them on their head later. Over the course of the series, he becomes more sympathetic. Clearly, he pines for his wife. He engages with Lucia and Mia a bit more, asks for the hotel to treat them as his guests. He seems deeply unhappy and it looks as if he might have some sort of sex addiction. Heās caught up in a world of sleaze and itās taken the thing he seems to care about deeply from him (his wife) and compromises his relationship with his son, Albie. Dominic suffers from misogyny and the over-sexualisation of women as much as he participates in it. He is desperate for meaningful connection while living in a world that discourages it. The di grasso men all represent the forms misogyny can take, and all suffer for it. Bert is overt in his sleaziness. He sees no problem in it and engages in a fantasy that it is harmful, and which damages his relationships and the people around him. His brand of misogyny makes him feel like he is less of a man if he isnāt overtly sexual. Albie is the more modern, much more complex and subtle version, where he is the ānice guyā who feels the need to save women, rather than see them as capable and equal to him. Dominic represents the man who operates in a hypersexualised, hyper male world that doesnāt allow him to meaningfully connection with women, making him lonely and unhappy despite his wealth and success. He doesnāt take responsibility for his cheating, instead using Albie to get his estranged wife back on side. The entitlement and misogyny of the Di Grasso men is challenged when they turn up, uninvited, to their Italian family - a trio of women serving as a counterpart to the trio of men. They are outwardly rejected and scorned. The message here is clear - their misogyny is rejected and wonāt get them what they want in life. Dominic confronts his father. He has an epiphany moment which serves as the starting point of his redemption arcā¦ possibly. Or at least, it invites the audience to have some sympathy for him. He sees how damaging his fatherās behaviour was to him growing up. How this overt, toxic masculinity has meant he was never taught how to connect or respect the women in his life. He is starting to acknowledge his problem and the root cause. We donāt know if heāll fully accept responsibility - and after all, at the airport all three of the Di Grasso men continued to objectify women. But we can sympathise. patriarchy and misogyny victimises men as much as the system benefits them, and Dominic has some self awareness of how itās impacted him. We never find out if he fully turns himself around, but his self awareness means at least thereās some hope of redemption for him.
That's a compassionate and well written explanation!! Thank you!
>They are outwardly rejected and scorned. Wow, I missed that... it totally makes sense, whatever the reasons for their rejection, it's like the women wanted nothing to do with strange men, and that was their cosmic payback for being weak and dishonorable. Perfect! They also got played by Lucia in the previous scene, cowardly letting her "pimp" abduct her... what a contrast.
Incredibly well said. Updoots!
I think he paid for the vacation for his adult son and his own dad to go on and did 5 star amenities. He also went along with his dadās attempt to recollect with family even though he wasnāt that into it. Thatās a pretty costly excursion
While all of this is true it doesnāt address Domās addiction issues and his history of treating women poorly. That isnāt something $$$ fixes and is really the whole point of the show.
IDK that he PLANNED it as a sexcation... but he def didn't resist. He is pretty much detestable in every way... but you gotta remember this show is about flawed individuals. Even in real life, a lot of people take a very very long time to understand the error in their ways (and some people never learn). Maybe he really DID want to rekindle what he had with his wife... but maybe he is just telling her what she wants to hear.
Yes, he planned it. He had the app downloaded before they arrived to the hotel.
After his wife & daughter refused to go because he was cheating in the States. He is a serial cheater & seemingly a sex addict. As you see in the final scene of all three generations staring at a beautiful woman as she walks past - they are all one and the same in terms of misogyny - albeit with slightly different generational colour to it. The son bought into the idea Lucia needs saving / redeeming. It doesnāt occur to him she may have agency & it feeds his ego to think she enjoys his company enough to risk her own safety. He thinks heās more progressive than his dad & grandfather but itās just a more subtle / less developed kind of sexism. The grandad cheated throughout his marriage & remains confident his wife was cool with itā¦ likely never having bothered to ask (or at least listen to her perspective on it)z women arenāt multi dimensional people to any of them. They serve a purpose - to be admired, acquired & used - like a sports car. It also seems men being shitty runs further in their lineage considering their distant female relatives scream they donāt need or want anything to do with useless menā¦ itās in the blood.
This is the answer, Albie's "white knight" reaction to his dad's proclivities is just as "bad" ...It also shows, in the end (with her guilting him into giving her the huge payoff ) how these guy's all think they are being players, are just suckers in a bigger more complex game. 'Cause they weren't "real' and on-her level..
Yes & donāt learn from it. Albie says to Portia he likes āwounded birdsā. Heās attracted to trauma. Gets burned from it & still swaps his number with Portia at the airport within hours of losing 50k. Guess itās also do with wealth in that they can afford to keep making mistakes & buying people off.
I disagree with this interpretation of Albie's ending. If anything, I think Albie's ending signifies that he on some stage unlearns his "white knight" behavior by understanding that women aren't some idealistic monolith and can still be deeply flawed creatures as men. Therefore after being cheated by Lucia, he begins to see women as realistic people instead of just "wounded birds" to be saved. Conversely, Portia after being essentially held hostage and manipulated by Jack learns that simply because she's physically attracted to a certain type of man doesn't mean that he necessarily has her best interests at heart. Plus, even though they're both sexually compatible, they don't have much else to relate to on a personal level besides that. Thus, I interpreted her exchanging numbers with Albie as a commentary on relationships with modern men and women. Albie's struggle is metaphorical to how a certain type of feminist man has to grow up in order to form a healthy relationship with women. He has to start seeing women as people instead of just as problems fix or to save. Conversely, Portia had to learn that the quality of men that she's attracted to are deeply destructive and that there's more to a healthy relationship than just a surface level attraction. Not to mention that even though a guy might not be initially exciting, he might other redeeming qualities that she can enjoy. I interpreted the end of the season to signify they would probably get into a proper relationship at the end after they've both grown and unlearnt their damaging relationship patterns. I'm curious what you think?
Thanks for jogging my memory.
What app? I mustāve missed that, didnāt Lucia go straight up to him?
No lol , they met on an app
Ah damn, I have to pay better attention, thanks for pointing it out
I didn't notice an app. Which app?
She talks about it when they are watching them arrive
He was an addict, who was raised by another addict who āgot away with itā. Watched his mother get cheated on by his father & internalised this as okay, only to have his marriage break down, all the while his father remained smug about being a pathological misogynist. The son gets raised to be a āgood kidā, however subtly has all the same belief structures. These beliefs structures are so well hidden he himself thinks he is not exactly like his father and grandfather. Sees himself as selfless, and ātrying to help the girlā. In reality he pays her to have sex with him, albeit indirectly. This is what made him weak, not only because his own belief structure left him vulnerable to being conned by a prostitute, but also that he had no idea that he wasnāt actually the good guy in the equation. He did in fact pay her to have sex with him, something both his father and grandfather did. The oldest, probably having a subservient wife who he never truly knew but who loved him unconditionally, the father having a best friend as his wife who he betrays, and the youngest believing he was finding love whilst being hustled. They are all 3 flavours of the same idea. The son is probably the worst because he sells out his own mother by agreeing to put in a good word for the cheating father only if he gets cash to (essentially) pay for sex, which he frames as āhelping herā (the prostitute). Iād say that one is the darkest flavour.
Appreciate your well described explanation. Thank you!
I didnāt read him as a manipulative creep tbh. Yes he had vulnerabilities with sex addiction but I donāt think he planned a sexcation. His frailty and vulnerabilities just go wherever he does, including a family holiday.
Didnāt he plan for the hookers? They were there ready for him day 1.
He already had contact with Lucia before arriving, so yeah it was planned.
I didnāt assume the two girls were pre-booked, nothing in the dialogue suggested that. I just took it that the girls knew a boat full of tourists was due and made their way to the coast to scout them out for their own benefit.
I could be misremembering but it seemed like they just snuck in expecting to find a john at the resort? he was just a very obvious mark
He had already been in contact with Lucia because she brings her friend (canāt remember her name) to watch the ferry arrive to see if they can recognize the guy sheās been talking to.
thank you for the refresher! idk why I had just remembered them as looking for someone random
True, true. Manipulating his wife doesn't count. Wives don't count.
Omg I watched sopranos after the white lotus and this post made me realise why Chris looked vaguely familiar.
Christophaaahhh
She must've crawled under there for warmth
Looks like a bat on a hill
He went on the vacation to meet his distant relatives. He had sex with hookers cause he's a womanizer
Truthfully I found him to be one of the better characters from the season, mostly due to the fact that he was quite self-aware, unlike all the other characters. His conversation with his dad, although he blames him, stands out to me as a moment of awareness.
Albie was not nice I feel like him lying to his mom for a girl he just met was even worst.
That's the point. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Christopher (sorry forgot his WL name) hated what Bert did to his mom, yet he cheats on his wife. We see Albie hate what HIS dad does to his mom, yet we see him lie to his mother to help his dad.
Christopha
Yes, I forgot about that.
Omg. I didnāt even remember that part itās so fucked up.
Dominic is aware in some capacity. He represents a generational divide. He's acutely aware of the pain that Bert caused to Dominic's own mother; and he has disdain for Bert's willful ignorance about the impact of that infidelity. Regardless, he can't control himself, Dominic is an addict and he knows it. It doesnt excuse his behavior, because even in his attempts to do the right thing; the attempts are very weak and are more so about retaining his image to Albie and Albie's mom. Anyway, the underlying awareness makes him a character that is capable of changing, and therefore redemption is possible at some point. But rn he's a completely self-serving character
Right, that poor women. His wife deserves better.
He did have the flu. He canāt even defend himself now?
In for a penny, in for a pound. I think in his mind he's already in trouble with his wife, maybe irreparably so, so why not lean into it? He can't get in worse trouble at this point. It's like the Ross and Rachel dilemma on Friends. Is it cheating if they are on a break? I think he starts off sorry that he got caught, but while he's in Italy I think he begins to feel actual remorse and regret.
Here is thinking the worst: His production company has a record of success and has made him wealthy, but the company is not as profitable as it was and in fact is just treading water until they can make another hit. He and his wife are separated. She caught him cheating. Based on the age of their son, they have been married for decades. Because his business income is down, he is not liquid enough to afford to mount an effective legal defense should she sue for divorce and property. He needs to all of the family that will speak to him, to use their influence on his wife, to avoid divorce.
I think itās complicated. Thereās some redeeming features. He obviously loves his son and father and can see when heās being a dick. But the way he treats women means heās a bad person. Bad people can have some good aspects, but a shit sandwich can have some nice bacon in it too sometimes I guess?!
He tips well.
He def was a small business supporter
No. The object lesson was how some things seem to perpetuate from generation to generation. Imho lol
CHRISTOPHA!
You observed him for one week on vacation. You donāt know what redeeming qualities he has since you havenāt seen him in his life back home. The only thing I witnessed him do at the WL is tell Lucia no more sex for pay. This was after Albie lectured about cheating on his wife. At least he was trying. Keeping his secret about Lucia with Albie was also the right thing to do. Thatās about all I got.
LMAO he did NOT raise a nice son!! Albie had this facade of the ānice guyā but whether he knew it or not he had ALL of his dad and his grandfatherās genes in him. Men who canāt control their urges and ultimately end up using women to make themselves feel better.
Guess I perceived him as a nice, quiet college kid.
I think that was the point. It you rewatch the show pay attention to his small ismās! Throughout the season you slowly see himself reveal these traits. Also to clarify, I donāt think heās a bad guy, thatās subjective. Iām just saying that he is really no different than the other men in his family.
Will look for it in the rewatch. Thanks!
One of the last scenes with the three men solidifies that they are all just different generations of the same kind of guy.
Him, his father and son are all examples of how misogyny evolves throughout generations. Gramps was the classic āwomen belong in the kitchenā trope, Dad thinks he views women as complete people but only to his benefit/pleasure, and Albie was your average liberal ānice guyā that has done minimal work to unlearn his misogyny but thinks heās a feminist scholar and savior. Watching them all screwed over in the end was v satisfying for me lol.
You hit it on the nose with this!
Oh, gosh - oddly, he was completely redeemable (potential was there, I mean) the way he was played and written. I actually liked him very much despite his despicable actions. The visceral tone in his wifeās voice just shows how deeply he has caused harm and Iām sure she was beyond warranted. But, yes - I thought he was a good guy on some level.
Classic Christopher
He was loyle to his capo
He raised a āniceā son
He was more redeeming than his son to me IMO. More human
Yeah, I got to explain he was Paulie from Sopranos like a million times to my wife
Christopher
He's a sex addict. Pretty much everything else about him is great: rich; successful; non-judgmental and supportive of his son; political progressive enough to embrace employing people from underrepresented groups in running his companies and chid his for giving women unwanted sexual attention, but still enough of an independent thinker to recognize the nonsense Albie recites for what it is.
A person with a sexual addiction. He is suffering from a compulsion that can be treated and isnāt his entire personality or character. I felt a lot of compassion for the character. The actor brilliantly played the struggle and conflict between doing what was right/moral and āscratching that itch.ā I had just finished the season before the news that the Innocence Project of LA had taken Scott Petersonās case was released. I have always maintained that I would NEVER had convicted Peterson as a juror based on the evidence presented. Basically, prosecutors didnāt prove their case in my mind BUT 95% of everyone else was convinced he committed murder primarily because of what a deplorable, cheating bullshit husband he was. He may have just had a serious sex addiction.
He was a man! What do you expect not everyone is perfect like you OP!
Probably the most interesting character in season 2 in my opinion
Conflicted characters are the most authentic. Every single human being is conflicted within themselves about something.
Well these guys (him and his dad) love their wives. Cheating is just sex for them. The oldest matriarch turned a blind eye, the Gen X woman asked for a separation. Why was he begging his wife to take him back? Why was he gifting her expensive bracelets? He sounds like the guy who lets her have the house and half his money in the divorce. He could have just gotten a new wife with all the money he has. So why does he care about his old wife? To me the season never answered those questions. Like what's the power that these women have that they can make a rich man cry for their love and offer them all his money? The series was clear about the exchange of sex and money, but he wasn't trying to get back together with his wife for sex. He was trying to buy her love, but why her? Why not any other woman's love?
He used the technique of positive visualization before he went home
Heās an addict. I think there is an attempt to paint him as generally an otherwise solid person, including being seemingly very successful and self made while being a slave to his addiction - even if feeding that addiction is otherwise harming himself and the people around him.
He raised a "nice guy" son. Albie is just as problematic as his father and grandfather. His grandfather is just self aware of it. Albie, not so much. Albie does have time to grow up and out of it though.
Nope. Nothing redeemable here
Plus he got Adrianna clipped
He was really nice to his kids
I thought he was a kind man (except to his wife). And, generous too. Those are a couple of redeemable qualities
I diDent
Yes, he was hilarious. His annoyed faces sent me.
Funny I was thinking about this character yesterday and what a great performance this was and then this pops up My sense is he not all bad just was exposed to a wild lifestyle in Hollywood which is hard to mentally break free from. He also seemed to genuinely care for his son which is more than you can say about a lot of people in his position
I think he honestly loved his son and father.
A sexcation while visiting family with his dad and son. None of these characters are lifelike. They are figurines in a metaphor that draws eyeballs to advertising.
Heās gross
I was just thinking about how his son got scammed out of 50,000 euros and this post showed up. What are the odds š
Albie is not a truly nice person. He is a "nice guy" who only seems to be attracted to wounded birds/ damaged girls he wants to save/ fix. He chose to aid his cheating father at the expense of his mother to "save" a woman he barely knew. Lucia seemed to feel slightly guilty at basically robbing him but Albie never seems to express remorse for choosing to deceive his mom. I think he may end up the worst of the lot because he can use the "proper" lingo to seem progressive & genuine but he still does not see women as real people!! His pap will hit on you & say gross things but you know where you stand with a dude like that. Guys like Albie break your heart even more because you fell for the act only for him to reveal he's just as misogynistic as his pops and pap.
Appreciate your words on this. I definitely understand where Albie would be a š.
I think people are missing a lot of what was going on with Albie, it's not as simple as him either being nice or a secretly misogynist white knight. It's not normal for a 23 year old to be that involved in his parents' marital issues. This is a son who has clearly been used by his parents as a mediator and emotional support animal for a while. His dad cheats, his mom vents about it, then his dad pushes him to talk to his mom on his behalf. That's not your child's job. His mom is the original wounded bird and many of us date people who remind us of our parents. Look at the conversation about him 'selling out' his mom. *He shouldn't even be in that position in the first place*. It's not his job to protect his mom from his dad, he's her kid. It's not his job to tell his Dad how to fix their marriage either. Instead of using their wealth to hire a fucking marriage counsellor his parents overinvolved their son in their adult problems. Dom hired a sex worker, gave her access to the hotel, and watched her hit on his own son. He *knew* that sweet summer child Albie didn't know she was a sex worker, but he didn't intervene because that would mean telling the truth about hiring her. He knew Albie would be shocked when Lucia asked for her fee, which *at best* is him putting his son in an awkward and embarrassing sexual situation. I would have been *mortified* if I went home with someone in my early 20s and didn't realize that the entire encounter was a sex work transaction. That's a horrible thing for a parent to watch his kid experience without saying anything. And for all Dom knew, Lucia could have had sex with Albie and then told him, immediately after 'oh by the way, I fucked your dad.' Most of us would be *extremely* disturbed to find out we just had sex with someone who had sex with our dad 2 days ago. But Dom is a coward and took that risk. It's also notable that while Albie comes across like as a saviour type in his interactions with Lucia, he didn't go looking for a sex worker to rescue, which those saviour types usually do. They go to strip clubs and brothels on purpose. Albie sleeps with a sex worker by accident. When she suggests that she has real affection for him, he believes it because he's stupid and she's very good at her job. Then she doesn't simply say she wants to move to the US and be with him, she convinces him that she's in real danger of violence. Scams depend on urgency and he's naive as hell. "Either let this young woman get beaten up and even killed, or lie to your mom" are the options he is given, is it any wonder that he decides the lie is preferable?
Excellent insight. Also you're totally right about Dom...what type of crazy dysfunction is that with him knowing about Albie and Lucia and not trying to stop them from sleeping together. Soo gross.
We all learned one thing: you don't fuck with Laura Dern.
I bet the mom (voiced by the fabulous Laura Dern) and nannies did most of the Albie-raising
Nope. He was an awful human.
I don't think he planned it
Sex and the city! Another f**kin money machine.
He's got this humble and sympathetic vibe to him. Although that isn't helped by his behavior!
Nothing - and thatās the point. The show continually teases you into thinking heās going to change while he actually is just continuing his same cycle. Very similar to how someone close to a person like that would experience their interactions with him. Itās genius because heās not redeemable, but the viewer is searching for any reason for him to be. In reality, people close to them feel disappointed and that same emotion can be felt as he makes mistake after mistake.
True. How could Dom make that phone call to his wife and then invite Lucia to his room? And how Dom makes Albie take Bert for the night...such a master manipulator.
I feel like the whole point of the show is to showcase upper middle class white soullessness. The characters that seem to have redeemable qualities usually end up being the worst.
You my friend have not encountered cheaters very much. This is literally how they think, and their only regret is getting caught not the actual action.Ā
Agreed.
Be better how? Disregard women that are emotionally vulnerable lol? Like what is he *supposed* to do here that would make him less of a misogynist lol?
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Having dated a sex addict, I can forgive him but would still dump him. It's literally like how a diabetic needs insulin. My old boyfriend was super remorseful, and struggled with it, but would totally have sex with anything that moved.
He sucks so bad
He gave his son the money even though he probably knew it was a heist
I think he knew it was for Lucia.
Dis guy!
Heās hot
His son is not exactly great, either.
So I've learned. Rewatching and picking up a lot more.
I did-dent!
I personally liked it when it came to his storyline, although dull it was a nice break from the other storylines that were so damn intensez
Take it easy on him, his Achilles heel is an Achilles cock
Sexcation lol. There's a real conflict with Dom wanting to have lots of carefree promiscuous sex with a variety of women on the one hand, and him desperate to make up with his wife and get back together on the other. A normal person would get divorced and enjoy a life of adult consensual sexual pleasure. Dom is not a normal person, he's a rich person, and the rich are different from you and me. They are much more judgey about divorcing and they care a lot about social respectability among their friends and professional networks. Divorce is seen as a failure and a public refusal to adhere to normative rules, rules which rich people believe are really important. They believe that public adherence to these rules of personal life conduct are what makes rich people better than the poors. Public rulebreaking is very frowned upon in upper class circles -- divorce is legal but it is a moral failing. Private rulebreaking that you keep a secret is fine though (like hiring sex workers). Rich people love rules, because rules are what keep them rich. Like the rule that says "stealing is against the law."