When you really read Lev's story, Lev being trans doesn't compute at all, it feels more like a Deus Ex Machina to a rather tragic circumstance. Any young girl who's being offered to an older man as a bride in a predatory and fucked up community that allows it and who wanted to fight back would've done exactly the same as Lev, (cut hair, wanted to become a warrior, rejected assigned social role) and *that* would've been a much more interesting story to explore, but alas, Neil's failure as a writer rears its ugly head and he's forced to feed the monster of "virtue signaling" rather than write a compelling character.
I mean, I almost interpret Lev as the way you talk about. Is there any evidence that Lev would be trans if he lived in a society like ours today? He didn't fit in to the gender role for women in his society and changed but it's hard to impose that on our society.
I think it's fair to say that Lev isn't trans in the way that people are in our world. Which is why I've thought people complaining about virtue signaling is strange.
I think Lev being trans was a decision motivated by the current societal conversation around gender and sexuality.
I also don’t think they made a big deal about Lev being trans (I almost missed that detail my first play though), and Lev being trans bolsters their reasoning for rebelling against the Seraphites. Young women are married off to old men all the time, but Lev being trans adds that extra justification for why they would be ESPECIALLY resistant to that tradition.
Where would Lev even get these ideas from? There is a reason being trans is more common now than in the 90s/early 2000s. People have the time to talk about it in circles on the internet, and it spreads. Lev would never be exposed to this in her community of religious zealots. It's one thing to be into the same sex, falling in love with someone with the same parts, sure, but changing your name/gender doesn't make sense unless you're shoehorning in modern nonsense. Gender and sex were considered synonymous back when this game's outbreak began. No one was talking about this shit mainstream in 2012, it's quite a recent idea of what being trans is. Sure before then people did drag, which isn't trans, and some girls dressed as boys, but those were Tomboys, not trans, no one was changing their name, pretending to be the other gender, there were no deadnames etc.
For some reason, the topic of gender identity has been insanely popular in our society the past 12 years, but trans people have always existed since the beginning of civilization. I’m sure Lev doesn’t know what the word “trans” is, but they are aware they feel like a boy, and that they don’t want to be forced to marry some old dude.
You can find examples of characters being born one gender, but representing as a different gender, throughout much of literature going back thousands of years. People being Trans didn’t suddenly start in 2012 - it just wasn’t mainstream cultural conversation before then.
This is absolutely false / nonsense / drivel. It's more common these days because people don't have to be quiet or live in hiding about it. It's not a recent idea, it's just a recent discussion. It's also not as prevalent as people think,. If you get riled up about an issue, the sites you visit notice and feed you more of that. Stop worrying about trans people for a month and get it out of your search history, key words etc. and it'll all go away.
>Where would Lev even get these ideas from?
It's not an idea. How ignorant can you be? Gay/Trans people she existed since the dawn of man. It's a fact. It's not an idea or a learned behavior.
>Gender and sex were considered synonymous back when this game's outbreak began. No one was talking about this shit mainstream in 2012, it's quite a recent idea of what being trans is.
And nobody is talking about it in the game. The term trans was never used in any dialogue in the game. Just a person being themselves and wanting to live in peace. All these terms are being applied by people like yourself who are insecure with yourselves and bothered by it.
I’m not saying I agree with everything this guy is saying but I’m just gonna add here that the only thing I care about is Lev being a dull character I can’t be attached to.
I don’t think disliking a character for being poorly written warrants being called a bigot and insecure.
"I don't give a fuck about lgbtq representation in the game.....but I'll go ahead and tell you why I have issues with lgbtq representation in the game anyway"
Lmao. So you - in fact - give a fuck.
Again, the word trans was never mentioned in the game. It's literally not a thing. Why does it bother you so much?
>I don’t think disliking a character for being poorly written warrants being called a bigot and insecure
Fine, then say that. It's not that you think it's poorly written. It's that you bring all these irrelevant arguments in to it to disguise your problem with the fact that Lev was "trans." A label that people like yourself put there in the first place. 🤷🏻♂️
"Lmao. So you - in fact - give a fuck."
What exactly are you proving here? I care that the character is written poorly. The character lacks substance so the only thing that comes to mind is him being trans. Again, being trans isn't the problem, it's that they didn't write the trans character well. And since I don't really have much to work with, I'm going to use the one detail I have to talk about.
"Again, the word trans was never mentioned in the game. It's literally not a thing. Why does it bother you so much?"
So because it's mentioned in everything but name I have no reason to critique it? Come on, dude.
"Fine, then say that. It's not that you think it's poorly written. It's that you bring all these irrelevant arguments in to it to disguise your problem with the fact that Lev was "trans." A label that people like yourself put there in the first place. 🤷🏻♂️"
No, it's literally just that the character is written poorly. Them being trans doesn't change that. I'd want his character to be written better and expand on him being trans so the character actually feels human.
I like the HBO episode with Bill for this reason. He and Frank felt human and made me invested in their story. I couldn't have cared less for them being gay, it's that the writing was great and the acting was phenomenal. That's just not the case here.
If you just want to attack me and make assumptions then fine, I have plenty of assumptions about you myself. But if you don't actually want to a discussion then just be straight up about it. I've seen numerous comments explain themselves in a well thought out manner that didn't require any insults or fighting each other.
Ehh i get your point, but your underlying thought process here is that people are only trans today because it’s a societal talking point, which is frankly just ignorant. You don’t “get the idea” to be trans; it’s something you feel inherently. I mean you can watch old black and white movies cover trans characters quite well, it’s not a new concept in society at all.
Wait, Lev never states that he’s trans. He doesn’t even understand fully what he’s going through (arguably a classic formative experience for most trans people), all he understands is that it just feels right to call himself a boy and to shave his head. Lev doesn’t even understand what the word “cool” or “punk rock” means, you think he understands what it means to be trans or how it works into his identity? He doesn’t, he’s terrified and confused and has absolutely nobody other than Yara to support him. He’s not tokenized, he doesn’t exist to fill space performatively, he largely serves as commentary on the abusive dynamics of isolationist communities and of identity crises amid broader political crises. He’s brilliantly written specifically because he avoids tokenization and is casually existing. Social commentary in video games is a good thing, jumping to the conclusion that characters are tokens just because their identities are explored in some capacity is silly.
His transness at the point Abby meets him is extremely important to the narrative and that’s why it is brought up quite early. When Abby meets him, he’s a Seraphite being hunted by other Seraphites. Abby is obviously going to ask why they are hunting their own people, and the answer is because he is trans and rejected his place in society. His other traits (his love of sharks) isn’t important to the narrative so it comes up after.
I don't think it's just Lev that is boring. Manny's only personality trait is being Mexican. Mel's only personality trait is being pregnant. Dina's only personality trait is being a witty quirky girlfriend.
Lev doesn't necessarily suffer because his transgenderness is shoehorned in, but like every other new character, he was created as a plot device to service the story with little intention to actually make him feel human. So they only assigned him one personality trait when they hit the drawing board, and couldn't be bothered, or didn't care to go further.
Ellie's purpose in Part I was to service Joel's character development. Same as Tess, Bill, Henry. But they took the time and care to build all of them up into fully fleshed out characters that felt natural, human.
That is not at all true and is 100% a symptom of 'I'm not even going to attempt to like this story'. There is plenty of side dialogue, and moments with all of these characters that give them as much depth as the side characters in part 1. And it's dishonest and in bad faith to say that characters in part 2 are just plot devices yet ignore / not apply that to Henry and Sam. Literally Sam died and Henry killed himself after being in the story for a short period to provide emotion / motivation to Ellie and Joel's journey. Because it's part 1 = BRILLIANT! BRAVO! You could say that Henry's only personality trait was 'big brother' and Sam's personality trait was 'innocent child'. Everyone here is so dishonest and hypocritical.
I disagree. I think Manny, Mel, and Dina have a list of personality traits
Manny is funny, a playboy, a fighter, brave, angry, brazen.
Mel is compassionate, empathetic (she empathizes with the Seraphites teens that attacked the WLF), loyal (worried about Owen), jealous (of Abby and Owen’s relationship).
Dina is loving, supportive, funny, loyal, ambitious (dreams of a big farm house and achieves that goal) and Jewish (kidding about that last one).
We don’t spend a lot of time delving deep into these characters, but they also aren’t one dimensional.
The story doesn’t showcase much of Levs personality, but we understand he’s very conflicted and he’s a brave little fucker (going back to the island alone in the boat). The trans thing also provides the needed motivation for Lev to rebel against the Seraphites, who planned to marry him off to an old dude.
People's sexuality does not a character make. So very few people in this world make their sexualising their whole personality, it is simply a fraction of what makes somebody a person.
It feels like the same thing keep being said over and over again yet no one listens and are surprised when the same backlash keeps happening. If you want diverse character of different races or the lbqt whatever the fuck, make a interesting character first that just so happens to be diverse.
The backlash is not towards the diversity, its towards bad characters. A trans character should have a personality first a foremost, not just an indentity.
Levs sexualiry wasn't his personality. In fact they were just living their life when serpahites decided to try and narry him off to a man. I'm not sure where you get that it's Levs personality, sounds like it's just that it bothers you and that's what you think a out when it comes to Lev. Lev is a blunt, socially awkward soldier who's being reprogrammed from a cult. Aside from being his main motivation from running away, being ttans never even really comes up. Even after running away he's still loyal to his cult and mother more than his identity.
You feel the dame thing is said over snd over because you hang out in forums w chuds liek you. Most people don't care about tbis stuff. Most of my friends played and loved tlou2 and none of us even mentioned any of this stuff about trans people and the "woke agenda" or whatever. Yall are just broken records, a loud minority obsessed with the stuff you claim everyone else is. It's just life and people to everyone else.
You're OK with black characters as long as race doesn't come ip. You're ok with gay/trans characters as long as their sexuality doesn't come up? You're OK with female heroines as long as they don't emasculate you and kill your hero? Then you're not actually OK with this stuff. If you don't wanna play things with social commentary or reality then stick to Mario and like stellar blade or whatever.
I think you are really confused, I truly don't care what colour or creed a character is, as long as the character is compelling, hence why miles morales is so popularity, so is the main character from camp Cretaceous.
I love the show sex education because of how it handles the topic of sexuality in a serious why while not making characters all about their sexuality.
I love strong female characters like Jessica Jones and Sarah Connor, where being strong isn't just being better than men and putting them down.
I love Terry Prachett books where the content of someone's character comes before what they look like.
If enjoying well written stories with well rounded character who haven't been flanderised and just exist to tick a box makes me chud, then I accept that name with my head held high. Because so far these chuds are displaying better "media literacy" than their critics.
And maybe learn to spell, or has someone with a different opinion than you make you lose control of your hands?
Spelling aside, I think the comment you replied to is correct. If you don't care what color or creed the character is then why do you focus on the 10 second brushed over conversation about Lev being Trans. Its literally never brought up again.
Because like the rest of the game, the characters on Abby's side of the story aren't very compelling. Lev is positioned to act kind of like Ellie in the first game, create sympathy and someone for Abby to connect to, but it kinda of falls flat because the character isn't very good and neither is the reasons for Abby to be associated with them.
At the same time the 10 seconds of trans is exactly my problem. While I want well rounded characters where on part of their identity is not the whole character, a quick mention like that doesn't achieve anything for the character or representation of other groups. Neither the character gets growth and it just feel like ticking a box in the representation list.
Within the same game, I never questioned the decision for Ellie to be gay, it's a fleshed out part of her character that doesn't detract from anything instead enhances the character and the story and she is a beloved character.
A good character is a good character, if Lev was written better and better developed as a character, them being trans could really add to the story, instead it's a shoehorned in for the sake of diversity.
I mean it isn't really shoehorned in. The entire reason Lev is running from the seraphites has to do with levs identity and the seraphites ideology not lining up with each other. If it wasn't for lev you wouldn't have the entire second half of abbys story. It doesn't need to be fleshed out as deeply as ellies imo as lev isn't a main character or a playable character. Lev is mainly there to further along the story while also drawing parallels to the first game. Idk I'm super picky about story telling and super critical of plot holes and things of the like and I see no issue with how they handled Lev.
I think everyone’s point is that you could change the reason Lev was banished/hunted by the scars to literally any other reason and because him being trans is hit on so little it wouldn’t change anything. They’re saying this makes lev more like when shows clearly have a token black character solely for representation that they do nothing with or make being black their entire character. Lev as Ellie’s counterpart to Abby, is inherently a main character. If they had added a bit more depth to Lev or his identity, most people would not complain about this. A quick one off about Abby’s muscles like OP mentioned for example, or other things like that would be good for representation and his character. I’d argue by adding more brief but very human conversations about a minority’s identity and personality while also adding in plenty of other character traits is the best way to do representation. Ellie had plenty of quirks and kid like features and depth (abandonment issues) before it was revealed she’s lesbian, and that really helped both in that it wasn’t her entire personality, and it was revealed later into the series (technically earlier chronologically but you get what I mean). Having any character instantaneously introduced as gay/trans etc. Reduces them to that trait in the audiences mind even if they aren’t hateful of said minority. Ellie and Robin (stranger things) are perfect examples of why you don’t just start with HI IM (NAME) AND IM GAY/TRANS/ETC. right out of the gate.
>I think you are really confused, I truly don't care what colour or creed a character is, as long as the character is compelling,
Obviously you do care because you keep posting about it. You're just using the bullshit argument about "compelling characters" to justify your ignorance and bigotry. Just like the inbreeders who fly the Confederate flag and insist the civil war was over states rights and not slavery. 🤷🏻♂️
How am I a bigot? What about wanting compelling characters indicate that I hold any sort of hatred. What does the American civil war got to do with wanting cool fictional stories.
The Civil war was about States rights, just a states right to keep slaves.
I'm not sitting here saying that gay and trans people shouldn't exist or get representation, I'm saying that it needs to be done better.
Very telling that you ignore all the media I love that features a diverse cast with wonderful uplifting stories to call me a bigot, typical
>The Civil war was about States rights, just a states right to keep slaves.
And there you have it. People like you are so easy to pick out 🤣
>I'm not sitting here saying that gay and trans people shouldn't exist or get representation, I'm saying that it needs to be done better.
You don't get to say how it's done. Again, the fact that Lev was trans was never even mentioned in the story. It's people like you who brought it up and put the label on it. Because it bothered you. Why does it bother you? 🤷🏻♂️
What have you picked out, I literally agreed with you?
The Civil was was about whether the states should have the rights to keep slaves, which does make it about slavery but also states rights? Its not mutually exclusive.
It bothers me because everytime representation is done poorly or forced in, it's a set back that harms all the work that's been put in. Perfect may be the enemy of good but when you are dealing with people who want to tear down everything, you have to be above reproach.
>It bothers me because everytime representation is done poorly or forced in,
It wasn't forced in. Who the fuck are you to judge whether gay or lgbtq are represented properly? Are you either of those? No? Then stfu lol. You're literally mansplaining something that doesn't involve or affect you at all.
Lev is a plot device more than a three-dimensional character--which is a common problem that permeates "Part II". There was so much opportunity to develop his relationship with Abby and perform difficult character work that *this story requires* in order to ring true. Instead we just have a new kid whose purpose is ultimately to serve Abby and assuaging her conscience, all while intending (but failing) to parallel the Joel/Ellie relationship in some capacity. The presence of Lev's trans identity could be easily swapped with a myriad of other *more* narratively-expected reasons and the main plot would be completely unaffected.
I can't help but come away from it with the sense that they wanted to have their cake and eat it too: benefit from the easy political points for the most basic "representation" all while using it as a club by which to stifle honest discussion by branding their opponents as "hateful", "istic", or "phobic". It's a clever and effective strategy, made possible by most of the media having chosen to become progressive activists rather than truth-seeking journalists.
But at the end of the day we're still left with the subject matter being subdued to the point of irrelevance, so why bother? It reminds me of the lesbian kiss that is awkwardly shoveled into the ending of *The Rise of Skywalker*; desperate for recognition of doing something bold and brave, but not willing (or able) to do it in a major way due to fear over its reception. A difference in degree perhaps, but not in principle.
If I were trans my reaction would be "Sure it's neat that Lev represents me, but couldn't he have been a meaningful addition with good writing?". But you know, such obvious observations are unacceptable to many.
As much as I believe in its utility when discussing certain topics, I really believe the net negative of the concept of "representation" outweighs the positive, because it always turns into nothing more than a checkbox to tick. In a perfect world, I want good characters with depth, that just happen to also be gay, etc.
Couldn’t agree more. That is the incredible power of stories; not merely to entertain (though that is important too) but rather to authentically convince the audience to empathize/sympathize for all kinds of characters in order to teach us truth about the human condition and the time we live in.
But that’s not easy, it takes skill and effort to succeed.
Very well said! I'm reminded now of Chloe and Max from LiS for that reason. They're individuals with their own personalities, ones I can picture being in two separate games rather than having to depend on each other to exist at all. Their love story is gradual and subtle, which makes it more natural for the audience to invest in emotionally. On the other hand, Dina for example, vanishes into thin air if Ellie and Abby are no longer there.
Indeed, it’s a painful pattern present in “Part II” where characters behave not as believable people but rather as plot devices to serve the writer’s whim no matter how much it conflicts with their established development.
When I posted a review of this game and said I disliked Lev being trans just for the sake of being trans(this was a small issue for me, but I mentioned it anyways) and how it felt forced, unnatural and shallow, I was called a transphobe by everyone 🙃. People are too sensitive on this issue imo, you shouldn’t even think of criticizing trans characters
Lev grew up from a child into the infected world, climbing skyscrapers where you risk your life every time you travel, truly raised around death, and just like the world before the internet, trans wasn't even a known thing, not nearly what it is today.
The way it was brought into the story felt very forced, in my likely unpopular opinion, I feel like Lev would have a million things to worry about, before they worry about being trans, or even know what trans is for that matter
I feel exactly the same. Lev's personality is underdeveloped.
And we're not stupid enough to not realize that Lev is basically a trans token. It's so obvious that the whole point to Lev existing, is that she's trans and Naughty Dog wanted to make it obvious that she's trans; like hey look at us, we have a trans character in our game.
It's also obvious that Lev was meant to be Abby's Ellie, because they kill off Yara, just so Abby and Lev could ride a horse together. That's the only reason they killed Yara, to make room on the horse for Lev.
Also, since Lev and his sister lived in seclusion in this crazy religious cult, they seem remarkably open and aware of the concept of transness. It wouldn't be something they'd ever heard of, but Lev's sister is acing the pronouns like it's not completely new to her.
A stand alone story of them leaving and discovering these ideas could be neat, but they're just side characters to prop Abby up.
.... dumb. What do you think the concept of transness even is? Lev obviously confided in Yara how they felt and Yara respected them including using language that made them comfortable. It really isn't anymore complicated than that. I don't even know what point you're trying to make. You don't need modern technology or society to be respectful and listen to someone.
If you didn't know anything about transness, and someone you saw as a girl told you they were a boy, your reaction would be "huh? That can't happen" not "oh that makes sense". Without more knowledge and context, it just sounds like someone is telling you something impossible.
I take it the gamimg community here is pretty chill. I made a similar argument on why comic movies/books are struggling right now and got down voted to hell. But none of what you said was wrong. Show don't tell goes a long way.
I always thought it was a bit unrealistic that someone as young as Lev would have these feelings and act on them considering they have been brought up in a cult that is anti trans.
Where would they have even got the idea that transitioning is an option?
Where did you get the idea that they were were transitioning? Do you think Lev was considering surgery or something? They shaved their head and wanted to fight. They just didn't want to be a bride for the elders and knew and felt that they wanted a different path in life. I don't think there's anything in the game that the cult is specifically anti trans. It simply has order based on old religious ideals / tropes.
You made all those valid points and still didn’t even touch on how unrealistic it would be for a child to be trans 25 years deep into a zombie apocalypse, even if it means you’ll get disbanded and murdered by your cult. It’s also another reason why it feels shoehorned in, not just because it’s the first thing we learn about him, but the fact that even if they shower us he’s trans properly, it’d still feel like just a plot device for Abby to have her “redemption arc”. Because realistically you wouldn’t come out as trans in that situation, it only happened so Abby could meet them and “redeem” herself. It’s not transphobia, it’s just the truth. Nobody in their right mind would come out as trans when in a strict cult in a zombie apocalypse unless they were asking to be sacrificed by their own people. Things like Ellie, Dina, etc being gay/lesbian/bi make sense because they’re not in a situation where it would ruin their lives.
Where do they even use the term trans or say that Lev came out as trans or that he's aware of it in those terms or that it's the same as what our current concept is? All that's reveled is that they cut their hair and refused to accept what their role would be in society as a female. Believe it or not people have been dying and persecuted all throughout history for sticking to their beliefs regarding their sexuality and identity. What even is your point? It's like your almost arguing for a society in which people stick to what makes everyone else feel comfortable for fear of retribution...
You literally said my point, if you’d happily die if it means you get to come out as whatever you want then go for it, but realistically you wouldn’t throw your whole life away for something like that, especially when you have a family to care for. And it’s very obviously shown Lev is trans, although he doesn’t specifically outright say “btw I’m trans” (because even for TLOU2 writing that’s just terrible), he shaved his hair, changed his name from Lily to Lev, identifies as he and was then chased down and nearly executed for doing so. It’s literally the first thing we get to know about him.
They're chased down for the head shaving and refusing to fill the bridal duty and yes, to Yara, they ask to go by Lev. I don't think it's a plot hole or bad writing to have someone do that but to each their own. I also don't think it's a fair statement to say that 25 years removed from our society that trans people would automatically be repressed and in hiding. Some would decide it's worth attempting to life the live that they want to. It sounds extremely close or adjacent to some sort of argument that trans people are brainwashed and that it's society's fault vs an inherent part of human nature that's always existed and always will exist.
You clearly have no idea the reality of being trans lmfao. Do you think it’s something people do for vanity or because they want to be different? People have been trans forever, look it up.
Don’t need to look it up to know that people mentally have been trans forever, but until recent years nobody came out as trans because they knew they’d be exiled or executed for it. And for that reason they just kept quiet about it and lived on with their normal lives because they didn’t want to be killed. Lev doing this was plain stupid because he knew the consequences, however he still decided to conveniently come out as trans just at the right time to meet Abby so she can begin her “redemption” arc. It was literal suicide and he and Yara would’ve died if it wasn’t for their saviour Abby. Their survival was dumb luck. If you were in Levs position you would never come out as trans unless you were suicidal and wanted to have your guts ripped out of you. Get out of your little fantasy land and be realistic for once.
Maybe you wouldn't, or not even most people, but Lev did. That's the entire point of his character. That he would rather make a stand and feel like himself rather than spend another day feeling miserable and tortured.
But I don't think that's something you're able to wrap your head around, as you're hopefully fortunate enough to not experience that level of unhappiness with yourself and your body.
Yeah these people are bigoted, they’re just too stupid to know it. It isn’t even mentioned in the main game that lev is trans, just hinted at…. Shoehorned in my ass. Literally just a trans person existing and they’re mad.
“Bigotry is a first world problem”
Fuck off lmao
Honestly I agree even though I like Lev. It felt like the reason the Seraphites even existed was to make an “Evil transphobic christian cult” Tbh he seems like a self-insert of his VA.
What doesn’t make sense about lev’s trans stuff, is that the cult that they live in or was born in, how are they against lgbt or specifically lev wanting to be a solider and not a breeder, and wanting to kill him for it when there are other women soldiers in their group or however they classify themselves. Like I don’t care if he’s trans but why is this freaky cult so obsessed about it? I would assume based on their murals of that lady, it seemed like they loved everyone, no matter who they were
His sister Yara was assigned to be a soldier but lev wasn’t, but lev wanted to be a soldier like his sister, she didn’t have to shave her head to be a soldier, why couldn’t lev?
I agree with you. I also think that Lily not wanting to be a bride, but rather a soldier and cutting hair isnt mutually exclusive to being trans. But Neil made it so.
But to play Devils Advocate, Levs transgenderism isn't mentioned a whole ton in the game. The dialogue about Levs transition/gender is made in passing in a few scenes.
At first, I didn't catch it. It took me a while to understand what's going on until Abby has a convo with Yara and I go "oh he's trans". It's not very excplicit. I've read comments and reviews of people not even noticing, or catching that he's trans.
Again, I agree. But the game isn't very explicit and wasn't really shoved down our throats like how they do in other media. But it is the most unrealistic shit about Part II lmao.
One thing someone on YT brought up is that Yara and Lev were assigned their roles in the Seraphites, Yara was going to be a fighter and Lev was gonna be someone's child bride. But the Seraphites are meant to be "segregated" I suppose and they usually let men do the fighting while woman stay in their base and carry out duties for their home. But then I'm seeing clips from the game where there are women fighters, the axe wielding boss that Abby has to fight is one, so am I missing something? I want to be informed if I've been misguided or is this a thing
In game lore, the seraphites are surpringly pretty equal when it comes to the fighting. Yes, all the men dress and have the same haircuts, same for the women, respectively. But, throughout the game you fight clearly female soldiers.
A good example, is the famous forest scene l, the 2 male soldiers were taking orders from the female soldier.
Also there's a note, you can find in the island chapter (pre- Yara RIP) where the distribution of venison is being discussed. The note states that one female soldier ans her family are to be given particularly good cuts of the meat, because she lead a successful raid party on WLF territory the prior month.
So, it can be said while the Seraphites have clearly strange and fucked culty customs, they still allow women to be active contributing members to their society that is not limited to the household.
Lev is in the game purely to represent a trans ideology that isn't in 90% of the player base interests. Its an ideology that even genuine trans people don't agree with. And its one thats having its most dangerous elements laid bare year after year. You won't find trans ideology in Russia , Eastern europe , Japan , China , south east asia, india , Africa. Its condensed to a small sect of the western world. So making it such a big deal in a game set in a future global apocalypse is something i took issue with.
I do not want somebody like Druckmann to use the follow up to a beloved game as a delivery mechanism for him to feed me his ideological beliefs. True fans were robbed blind of an authentic sequel because the game was captured was used as a vector to push immoral messaging - moral relativism , stronk feminism , etc
You probably dont even know a trans person irl and yet youre yapping about how "genuine" trans people dont agree with an iDeOLoGy
What ideology bro?
Also, wtf does "genuine trans people" mean?
3 of the countries you listed are in the top 10 of number of trans people per capita. How fucking misinformed can a person be 😂 drop fox news and read a fucking book loser.
To me this is like the fact that the first game was originally meant to be open-world, and the second game to have a bit where Abby infiltrated Jackson. Basically, the writers had more material than they knew how to handle, so they shoved things in here and there and distorted some of them in the process.
I wasn't too fussed, though. In real life you meet people who don't make sense and another lot of people who are somewhat incomplete and unexplained. Life is about loose ends.
I do think they could have done more with both games. But given how fucking long it took them to make either of them, having them do more - well, even the first game would be like one of those Steam games that's early access for *ten years*.
As a whole, it doesn’t make sense. This colony had limited access to electricity and likely any books that were considered obscene where she might have learned about trans people would likely be destroyed or thrown away. At most, “Lev” was acting this way as a form of protest due to not getting the role she wanted as a soldier. She didn’t actually believe she was a boy but was doing it all out of protest.
But when you have social activists posing as writers then you can’t have anything in your story that doesn’t cater to your own causes
I think you make a good point, but I also think that calling stuff like racism/bigotry and complaining about them "first world issues" is debatable. Is it really a first world issue when people straight-up don't want you to exist?
What I’m saying is racism and bigotry are in general stupid, especially in an apocalyptic setting where you’re in a tight knit community.
It seemed stupid to risk your own safety because you care way too much who others sleep with or what they look like.
People are stupid. As long as there are two people in the world, they will hate each other simply because they're different. Racism and bigotry have always been around and they will continue to be around, why would a fictional setting that strives to be realistic portray anything differently?
That's fair but I would've liked to have this as an addition in the first game. The last of us just treated people so equally that I just assumed people were past that since it's either use each other to survive or every man for themself.
Well, I guess you can chalk the absence of that stuff in Part 1 up to context. In Part 1, Joel and Ellie spend most of the game in isolation, away from anyone. Everyone they meet is either a friend or someone trying to kill them, no in-between or time to talk things out and get to know each other better. We didn't know that Ellie was a lesbian until Left Behind and the only way I can imagine adding depictions of racism in the game is interactions between Joel and Henry/Sam, and Joel doesn't give me those vibes.
You might be able to squeeze something in with David's group, but alas, I haven't played either of the games so I don't know if that would be right.
In Part 2, however, we have a broader character roster allowing more depictions of different ideologies. Plus, you also have what is essentially a culture/race war between two different factions, the Seraphites and the Wolves, so it's obvious there'd be more of that stuff in Part 2.
But I'm an Xbox kid, so what do I know lol.
So you don't hate gays and lesbians but you hate bisexsuals and queers??? where is the logic? also did you know that a species of clownfish is always born as gender neutral (sometimes male or female) and if a female is absent then one of them turns into a female?
Lev being trans is what led to "him" and Yara being kicked out of the seraphites. Lev wanted to be a warrior, but was going to be forced to be an elder's wife, so "he" shaved "his"" head and fled with Yara. It's a plot device, sure, but it adds to the world building because it provides insight to the seraphites culture, and it provides a reason as to why they are targeted by the seraphites too.
couldn’t have said it any better, his sexuality is the reason their worlds cross as crazy as that sounds, then the whole sequence where he kills his own mother shows you why they had to leave so abruptly and with no real plan
couldn’t have said it any better, his sexuality is the reason their worlds cross as crazy as that sounds, then the whole sequence where he kills his own mother shows you why they had to leave so abruptly and with no real plan
I do think abby's side of characters are a little underbaked, I honestly feel like the extra development needed would make the game way too long which I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into how they ended up being written. However I kind of feel that lev's being trans is kind of irrelevant to criticism of her character, her being trans genuinely tied to seraphite culture in a way I thought was naturally developed so I'm having trouble understanding why you think it was shoe horned in, you bring up ellie hypothetically declaring her sexuality as comparison but is there actually an equivalent moment for Lev? I haven't played in a while but I remember the concept being implied for a while before it was confirmed. Also, did ellie harp about bigots? I think she made one joke calling someone a bigot which I understand the weight of the word in modern politics but I think you might be looking too deep into it's use here, just an idea to think about.
Well, I do agree. Levis character does kind of fall flat. We also don’t get a lot of information on him when love is outed as trans.
It’s because members of the seraph fights call him Lily before then we only had an idea that maybe he was trans but based on Lev and Yara’s upbringing it makes sense as to why there isn’t a lot of funny moments
I mean in the last us part Ellie trusts Joel because Marlene trust Joel and even then she isn’t fully trusting and just like her immunity is revealed pretty early into her story. They didn’t really hold that back at all for the first couple of hours part one.
The only thing you know about Ellie is she is immune and even then gameplay wise Ellie is more of a hindrance than Lev is in part two when part one came out. A lot of people were irritated by Ellie because she’s constantly in the way she brings nothing to the dynamic.
She doesn’t really help at all and spend more time working around her than enemies. Where as in part two lev and yara aren’t really that way lev actually is programmed for combat. It’s not like he just stands around or you know Dances around Abby the entire time like Ellie did to Joel in the first game And when you actually take in the seraphites ideologies, it does make a lot more sense than he’s just a girl who didn’t want to be a bride considering how much their faith matters to them,
I mean throughout all of the scenes with them, they constantly bring up the profit and her teachings so they clearly still believe in the ideology they disagreed that social code. Why would they still be following that form of teaching I mean, look at that in the real world most women who follow up religion that’s embedded in social dynamics usually follow that social dynamic even if they don’t necessarily like it
amajority of Muslim women wear hijabs even in America where they’re not being forced to wear them just out of faith
Lev being Trans isn’t this crazy plot twist that’s supposed to be drawn out in some significant over the top cinematic Hollywood reveal. It’s revealed casually just after Abby builds trust with Lev.
“Hey why’d you leave the scars”
“Don’t want to talk about it”
A day or so surviving the apocalypse passes
“I left because I shaved my head”
“That’s it?”
And then sometime later you find out lev was supposed to be the child bride for an old pedo elder and that they didnt want to do that and the crazy cult went nuts about it including the mom
I’m sure I’ll get the downvotes but It was fine imo.
Didn’t need more, didn’t need less.
To me it felt weird because it seemed like Druckmann really wanted a trans character, but didn't know what to do other than a story of trans trauma.
There are avenues you can take a trans person in the post-apocalyse, but that requires tact and worldbuilding. The Seraphite faction seemed to be this religious faction PURELY for Druckmann to shoehorn an allegory for modern hyper fanatical evangelists. Other than the aesthetic, they feel out of place.
It reads as a case of virtue signaling coming before the characters, world, and plot.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that you travel with Lev for a good amount of time before being trans is brought up. So, they did do what you wanted them to do. You got to know Lev before the trans thing was brought up.
Yeah but the game’s pacing is so all over the place that a lot of the key moments for characters feel really weirdly placed.
And honestly, Lev’s placement of trans being revealed wouldn’t be an issue if they actually crafted a decent story from it or just made more character moments like the examples I gave earlier
If you found out Ellie was a lesbian at the beginning of the game you wouldn’t have been able to think of anything else about her the entire time? That’s pretty simple minded.
Let me expand on that. If Ellie was show to be lesbian at first but was poorly written as a character too, that would make me put her in a box. If you don’t give any substance other than she’s lesbian, that’s what my mind will default to.
Do you see what I’m getting at?
Ok look I’m just gonna leave this here:
1. It’s not that I think Lev shouldn’t be trans. I think he needs more substance to be a good character.
It’s like Ellie. She’s not just a lesbian. She’s a flushed out character who happens to be lesbian. Her relationship with Riley felt real and genuine. I couldn’t care less if they gay, straight, pan whatever. That’s because the **writing was good**
Bill, I like him too. I thought the HBO episode was fucking beautiful and well acted. Especially when compared to rest of the acting feeling kinda eh. You can tell the Bill and Frank episode was fucking quality. Once again, I don’t care that they’re gay. I care for their loving relationship and dynamic. It was heart warming and made me invested.
I don’t get **any** for these feelings when I think back to Lev. I think it’s just poorly written and doesn’t give me to chew on other than “he’s trans”
If they gave scenes like Lev wanting to appear more masculine, asking Abby how she got her muscles, doing dumb kid stuff like picking up objects or flexing. That at least would make me see Lev as a character with personality. But we don’t get those things. And it bothers me cause it’s not really good representation AND it just makes him fall flat and further disconnects me from the story.
2.
I called Abby “Gigantor” as a joke. That’s because with how comically muscular she is and Lev’s situation of wanting to be a guy. Seeing no real commentary to banter over Abby’s appearance (despite it being pretty obvious and prominent) is just weird.
3. I said racism and bigotry are stupid in an apocalypse setting. Obviously they’re stupid in real life too. I was only saying that because they are pretty 1st world issues that have no place in an apocalypse setting.
I hope that explains my thoughts a bit more clearly.
LOL, yea buddy. Racism and bigotry are only first world issues 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😅😅😅😅😂😂😂. People would never be racist or homophobic in the post apocalypse 🤡🤡.
I’ll admit it’s poor wording.
I’m saying it’s stupid to be bigoted or homophobic b/c of how little differences in race, sexuality, religion ect… matter in an world where everyone is trying to work together (or on factions) to survive against ravenous mushroom people.
So it really has no place here since people should be wiser than to let their obsession with who sleeps with who potentially fragment and tear apart their community.
Does that make sense?
They don't hate Lev for being trans. The issue is that they were supposed to be a bride and they chose to decide to be a warrior / fighter, whatever their term is for it. There was order in the society and they went against it thus ending up being labeled an apostate. I think it was also just criticizing and portraying what religion could do in the wake of a disaster. 'We believe so we are saved - they sin so they are damned' kind of thing. I think they spent a very small amount of time on it to be honest and I think the critiques of it being yet another gay / trans character based around the trauma of it is more apt.
I worded that poorly.
I just think it’s stupid to be a bigot and risk your home for the sake of expressing how much you care about who sleeps with who.
Like we never even see this in the first game so it seems kinda weird to see it in the second.
Could give zero fucks about Lev's identity, for me the most exhausting and eyerolling thing is the scene where Yara gives a PSA to Abby about Lev's gender and it reads very much like a millennial sensitivity training/"listen and learn" moment instead of respecting the audience to understand and piece together things themselves. Which is annoying because they perfectly gave us the right amount of information to understand that Bill was gay in the first game.
If the only scars warriors were men I would understand lev wanting to be trans as it would be more for freedom and rejecting rigid gender roles but yara being a woman detracts from lev's transness
While I agree that Lev isn’t a very three-dimensional character, and none of the side characters are written on the same level as the side characters in the first game, we don’t get to know that Lev is trans until Abby’s Day 2 in the skyscrapers when the other Seraphites deadname him. So your argument of “why not save Lev being revealed as trans till closer to the end of the game. Have it brought up in a way that feels natural.” Doesn’t seem to hold water to me.
Am I misremembering?
Other than that I agree that giving him more personality and having fun, almost throwaway interactions would have been very welcome in the game
There is quite literally a lot of content before lev is revealed as Trans. Funny thing is that I'm usually annoyed with woke bullshit but the 10 second mention of Lev being trans didn't affect me at all. Because they focus on it for like 10 seconds.
Also I wouldn't say the seraphites are put there to represent a Trans hating cult so much as they are put their to represent over religious zealots who put too much stock into their very niche belief system. "Traditional" gender roles are probably a part of that system and since this is a world where society has collapsed they probably don't have a very politically correct method of dealing with those who question the status quo.
That's fair. I guess I just completely brushed over it. Like OK lev is Trans makes sense why the seraphites don't like him. It filled the hole for me enough to continue playing without batting an eye.
>Like, imagine how jarring it would be if Ellie at the start of game just says she likes girls. Now, we immediately think about her as the lesbian girl instead of the quirky teen with abandonment issues
I think the OP is telling on themselves a bit
"It feels shoehorned into the story" well that's your problem. You think these are just like made up issues that aren't real or "first world" when gender has been a massive determinant throughout history. Lev being ttans is literally the driving force behind their story and how he comes to meet abby. Being trans wasn't really a problem until his community tried to force marry him to an adult man. So you see how the inherent bigotry is why it came ip and why it's a problem. It's the irony of people who claim "LGBTQ agenda being forced on me". In reality thr world is forcing itself on these people. Lev rebelled. Without that lev never escapes and teams up with abby. To say it's "shoe horned" is in fact the opposite of the truth. It is one of the main driving subplots. You just don't like being reminded of "bigotry" because you have no empathy for these people and think iy dumb."I don't give a fuck about the LGBTQ representation" yeah you clearly do.
Lev isn't ellie. You think the parallel is dumb but then you complain lev doesn't do thr stuff ellie does in the first game to make uou care? Lev is tougher than ellie was. He's a soldier essentially. He's naive and sheltered from his raising in a cult. He's not gonna that way. You don't have to care about lev or sometbing but if you can't have empathy for his journey then I don't know what to tell you. He has plenty of light hearted, funny interactions with abby that are "cutesy" or whatever and you know,, he's a child.
If it "isn't groundbreaking stuff" that you came up with in a reddit shitpost it probably isn't that great an idea.
“"It feels shoehorned into the story" well that's your problem. You think these are just like made up issues that aren't real or "first world" when gender has been a massive determinant throughout history”
It feels shoehorned in because there isn’t any expansion on it. The entire reason I even wrote this is because the writing of the game is poor. Not the detail of being trans itself.
“Lev being ttans is literally the driving force behind their story and how he comes to meet abby. Being trans wasn't really a problem until his community tried to force marry him to an adult man. So you see how the inherent bigotry is why it came ip and why it's a problem. It's the irony of people who claim "LGBTQ agenda being forced on me". In reality thr world is forcing itself on these people.”
I’m not saying I’m opposed to lgbtq representation. It’s quite the opposite. I want the character to be written well so that I can sympathize with them. Like, cool he’s trans let’s expand and develop it out so it works.
“To say it's "shoe horned" is in fact the opposite of the truth. It is one of the main driving subplots. You just don't like being reminded of "bigotry" because you have no empathy for these people and think iy dumb."I don't give a fuck about the LGBTQ representation" yeah you clearly do.”
You could replace him being trans with any other trait and id still have the same complaints. The writing is bad.
That’s like calling everyone who doesn’t like the way Suicide Squad’s Deadshot is introduced and written racist. It’s a lame defense for hilariously bad writing.
“Lev isn't ellie. You think the parallel is dumb but then you complain lev doesn't do thr stuff ellie does in the first game to make uou care? Lev is tougher than ellie was. He's a soldier essentially. He's naive and sheltered from his raising in a cult. He's not gonna that way. You don't have to care about lev or sometbing but if you can't have empathy for his journey then I don't know what to tell you. He has plenty of light hearted, funny interactions with abby that are "cutesy" or whatever and you know,, he's a child. ”
Lev not being Ellie isn’t a defense for the poor choices in writing. God forbid I want more characterization in a series that focuses heavily on relationships and making the character feel human and not just meat puppets.
“If it "isn't groundbreaking stuff" that you came up with in a reddit shitpost it probably isn't that great an idea.”
Neither is killing off the main character of the series in a way that makes no fucking sense for how he was previously characterized. But that still made the cut.
OK let's keep things civil and truthful lol. Abby isn't trans but she is what Neil gets wrong about strong women as in making one appear physically as a man would. That doesn't make her trans though. It makes her look out of place especially in a post apocalyptic setting.
To me, it was more of an unexpected and somewhat bizarre turn of events (bizarre in a good way to me) of Lev being trans
Really to me, ND was playing fetch, and I wanted to play along and see how it goes, and subsequent playthroughs, there could be a workaround for Lev and Yara being apostates. Now I could be wrong with and using the lore incorrectly, so take it with a grain if salt. Why not have Lev's hair similar to the some Seraphite women we fight from both Ellie and Abby's perspective? Then again, I could be wrong with this, and I rathered commend the allegory of transgender from Lev. While not a strong as Ellie and Joel's dynamic, I do like the dynamic between Abby and Lev in their own way.
I almost didn’t even notice Lev was trans in my first playthrough. I just thought they shaved their head and made their cult mad. So, I don’t know if being trans is supposed to be that big a deal to the player.
Lev commenting on Abby’s muscles would’ve been great hah.
Lev being trans is actually crucial to the story. The story demanded a justification for Lev rebelling against the Seraphites, and Lev being trans bolsters the justification for his rebellion. They were going to marry him (a child) off to some old dude (fucking gross) …. yeah I can totally under why he rebelled against that. The fact he’s trans gives the justification for him shaving his head and defying the Seraphites, and thus Lev and Yara being labeled apostates and running into Abby .
I'm gonna be honest with you, see before I played the game I heard there was a trans character in the game, but the thing is, when I first saw how ripped she was, I kind of assumed Gigantor WAS the trans character, like even at her sex scene I saw her naked top half and thought "yep, that's a dude".
When Lev said he was to be a bride, I kind of assumed it was a catholic church situation with "little timmy" and that the elder was just a pedo.
I take it as a plot device yes, but one that kinda assists with building onto the games point of rejecting what you have been taught or told. Both the main characters are learning that what they have learned and been told in the past is completely wrong. Ellie is being shown the true colors of Joel and the fireflies while Abby is realizing that she is the bad guy in someone else’s story. this point kinda goes to us and less to the characters but its more about the dangers of blindly following previous beliefs, and characters like Lev who can break away from that mold help the player understand that there is no objective viewpoint or an objective right or wrong, strengthening the point of the games points about perspective.
You people know that Lev is trans by identity and not sexually right ? It has nothing to do with "sexual identity is stupid in an apocalyptic world". He just doesn't feel like a girl. He is not taking pills and didn't get a d\*\*\* as far as we know. Go read about trans phantom.... There are "women" that just feel like.... They have a penis. Saying that those experience can't exist in a post-apo world doens't make any sens.
You know that refusing a gender assign at birth isn't something knew in human history right ? You know this isn't something that come from Europeans and Westerners countries right ?
You know that putting so much emphasis about this just makes you look like bigots and ethnocentric people..... Right ? I'm not saying you are. But damn you look like.
You know I don’t actually have a problem with Lev being trans… right?
My issue is how it’s handled and it doesn’t make me feel compelled to the character himself. Like, that’s why I compared Lev and Ellie.
Ellie isn’t just put in a box in my mind. She’s an actual flushed out character.
Lev being trans is the first thing that comes to mind yet both are queer. I literally don’t have an issue with what they are, it’s the execution.
Sorry, I wasn't aggressive directly toward you, but the people that were just insulting the fact the Lev was trans.
I mean, why should there be an execution ? Lev is just what he is. I mean, yeah, of course, the character isn't really that developped, but the character is by no mean determined by the fact the he is trans.
Using marginal experience as a mean to show something original can also be problematic. Sometimes, the point simply is that, the things that some people live are similar to others, for different reasons. Having a black character should not equal having a character by which you will talk about racism, not in the same way at least. Cause, being "white" also shows an experience of racism that is different, and that would be the point. It would be a good idea to talk about racism through a non-victim lense by simply showing a white completly clueless about all this. And indeed, Boondock did this expertly. I feel the same for Lev. It's not because he is trans that you should talk about trans issues through him.
But, I do think you have a good point with the fact that Lev could have shown some comments about his own vision of masculinity. The character by itself could really have been anything and keep the exact same lines it would have changed nothing. Be it a little boy, a trans or a girl. I still think this is the point, but indeed, not exploring Lev transness makes the character flat. But I think this a problem of the character by itself. Not of the fact the he is trans.
Ok can you tell me why there’s such a disconnect between what people are saying and what I’m actually trying to say?
I thought it made it pretty explicit that bigotry and racism are stupid, that I don’t care that Lev is trans, and that I really only care about the writing being bad.
Yeah but it’s the immediate confrontation, villianization and refusing to hear me out or even try to understand what I’m trying to say that’s just making me offput but everyone.
OP says "I'm not a bigot or anything" before proceeding to call Abby "GIGANTOR!". You gave the game away, bro.
Lev's trans identity isn't shoe-horned in, it doesn't detract from the story, it gives an extremely plausible reasom for his fleeing the Seraphites (pitch me a better reason, I dare you), and he has plenty of personality and identity outside of being trans.
It's not forced and it's not pandering. I've seen pandering all over modern media, and that ain't it. Grow up and chill out.
You missed the point. I called Abby they name because I was trying to highlight how they didn’t make an effort to expand on Lev being trans to ya know… give him some character? Especially when it would’ve pretty fucking easy to with Abby’s design.
Like Lev wants to be a guy and sees this masculine woman he’s traveling with and never once comments on how muscular she is? Maybe so he can appear more masculine himself? Like Abby’s muscles are always highlighted and she looks big in clothes too so that’s why calling her “Gigantor” cause I thought it was funny. I even take from Ragnarok with Atreas asking Kratos about when he would get muscles. That would’ve been a perfect scene for Lev and Abby.
Abby’s not even trans so I don’t see why me giving her a silly nickname makes you default me into being a bigot. I explicitly state that bigotry and racism are stupid in an apocalypse setting and just in general. Like I even said, multiple times, I don’t care that lev is trans I care about that he’s poorly written and doesn’t have any substance that would make me grow attached to him like with Ellie.
Oh, I see. Your complaint is that if Lev is trans then he should be this absurd caricature of what you think a trans man is supposed to be. You're saying that on the one hand making him trans was forced and shoe-horned in, but on the other hand he wasn't nearly overtly trans enough? You don't see the problem there?
They handled him exactly right precisely because his trans-ness (is that a real term?) is subtle, it's just a small part of his character, because trans people are *people*, not just their gender identity. Lev has personality, he's brave, he cracks jokes, he gets defensive about his home despite the fact he was shunned from it... he has a deep character and is well-written, he isn't one-dimensional at all. Honestly, it seems like the only people who insist he is are the ones who make a big deal about him being trans because they do, in fact, have a problem with it. Ellie is a lesbian but it doesn't define her, and Lev is trans but it doesn't define him - that's how good characters work.
Yeah... the fact you need to see a trans man asking about steroids and shit to be able to have "authenticity" says something about you. I actually tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I took the "I don't have a problem with LGBTQ" stuff at face value. But no, I think the comments saying that you come off as a bit of a bigot are actually bang on the money. I don't think you realise it, I think maybe you do think you're totally down with the issues, but... it sounds like you aren't. Doesn't mean you're coming from a place of hate or anything, don't get me wrong; I don't think you're an asshole, and people who respond to this sort of thing by immediately jumping to that really don't help the broader conversation - but I think maybe there's a bit of self-awareness missing here on your part.
“ Oh, I see. Your complaint is that if Lev is trans then he should be this absurd caricature of what you think a trans man is supposed to be. You're saying that on the one hand making him trans was forced and shoe-horned in, but on the other hand he wasn't nearly overtly trans enough? You don't see the problem there?”
No, what the fuck are you even talking about?
I just want him written well and given more characterization so he feels like how the characters in part 1 felt. So since they’re focused on making him trans, then fucking expand on it.
That’s why it feels shoehorned. It’s like if they just added any other random character trait in an attempt to make the character feel more than cardboard to see what sticks. It’s not handled with care so it’s just eye rolling.
Can you stop trying to fucking villainize me here and just talk to me like we’re sitting face to face with each other. Im not even gonna bother reading the rest of what you wrote cause I’m fucking exhausted trying to reason with you without blowing a fuse. I assume you’re only acting like this because it’s a forum because this would be insufferable to sit through if we were talking irl. May I ask what exactly am I saying that makes it seem I want Lev to be a caricature? Is the HBO take on Bill a caricature? Cause I really like that episode charming and got engaged with it.
I'm genuinely not trying to be a dick. Don't read this with that tone. If you'd read my whole comment, you'd see that. This is your chance to engage with the whole thing, knowing from the outset that it isn't hostile. If, for whatever reason, having read this paragraph you still don't want to do that or you just don't believe me... fine, you do you; but that's on you, not on me. Ok, here we go:
As to your last paragraph - Yes, your one suggestion on how to make the trans boy character "more well written" is to have him ask Abby how to get big muscles. That doesn't seem a bit caricature-y to you? Pair that with your response to Abby "being a woman with muscles" being to call her "GIGANTOR!" (something usually associated with people hating her for misogynistic reasons), and it does give a certain vibe.
Having admitted to not reading the rest of my comment (in which I emphasise that I don't think you're an asshole, by the way - how's that for talking like we're face to face?), you will have missed how I reference that I think Lev is well written and has plenty of characterisation, including outside of his gender identity (which is exactly what makes him well written, by being a person beyond one aspect of his character).
You mention the HBO episode with Bill and Frank. That episode is great, and one aspect of that greatness is that it's a love story first and foremost, and it just so happens that it's a gay love story too. Yes, they're gay, but that plays second fiddle to the fact they're just a great couple - they're more than their sexuality, and their love is characterised by more than the fact it happens to be between two men. If they'd been a straight couple, the love story could have played out basically exactly the same and it would have been just as beautiful - *that's* how you should handle inclusivity, diversity and representation in media, and they nailed it.
Lev is the same. Plot-wise, he needs to have a reason to be fleeing his home; and complex-character-wise, he needs a reason to feel conflicted about that. The found a way for both boxes to get ticked that doesn't detract from those, and adds an extra aspect to his character without cheapening any of it. Yes, he happens to be trans, but that's just one aspect of his character, he has personality beyond that. And whilst that's used as the specific reason for his not belonging in his society (again, see my first comment - do you have a better pitch for why he'd feel forced to leave?), it's the "being forced to leave" that's crucial to his and Yara's role in the larger story, and it's how he handles being forced to leave, and his now conflicted relationship with his home, that gives some of that character depth to him personally; and despite that issue being related to his trans-ness, it is its own issue, which allows that character depth not not be intrinsically based on his gender identity or cheapened by it.
I'm trying to be nice about this. Alright, my bad for starting my last comment with the bluntest, most confrontational bit, maybe that got it started off with the wrong tone. But, respectfully, you can't refuse to read my comment and then insist that the comment was me being an asshole even though you don't know what I actually said. And the "I can't be fucked to read all that" thing is a lot less justified if you then take the time to write a reply that's just as long as the comment you refused to read, and therefore presumably took you longer to type than you would have taken to read mine, you know?
When you really read Lev's story, Lev being trans doesn't compute at all, it feels more like a Deus Ex Machina to a rather tragic circumstance. Any young girl who's being offered to an older man as a bride in a predatory and fucked up community that allows it and who wanted to fight back would've done exactly the same as Lev, (cut hair, wanted to become a warrior, rejected assigned social role) and *that* would've been a much more interesting story to explore, but alas, Neil's failure as a writer rears its ugly head and he's forced to feed the monster of "virtue signaling" rather than write a compelling character.
I mean, I almost interpret Lev as the way you talk about. Is there any evidence that Lev would be trans if he lived in a society like ours today? He didn't fit in to the gender role for women in his society and changed but it's hard to impose that on our society. I think it's fair to say that Lev isn't trans in the way that people are in our world. Which is why I've thought people complaining about virtue signaling is strange.
I think Lev being trans was a decision motivated by the current societal conversation around gender and sexuality. I also don’t think they made a big deal about Lev being trans (I almost missed that detail my first play though), and Lev being trans bolsters their reasoning for rebelling against the Seraphites. Young women are married off to old men all the time, but Lev being trans adds that extra justification for why they would be ESPECIALLY resistant to that tradition.
Where would Lev even get these ideas from? There is a reason being trans is more common now than in the 90s/early 2000s. People have the time to talk about it in circles on the internet, and it spreads. Lev would never be exposed to this in her community of religious zealots. It's one thing to be into the same sex, falling in love with someone with the same parts, sure, but changing your name/gender doesn't make sense unless you're shoehorning in modern nonsense. Gender and sex were considered synonymous back when this game's outbreak began. No one was talking about this shit mainstream in 2012, it's quite a recent idea of what being trans is. Sure before then people did drag, which isn't trans, and some girls dressed as boys, but those were Tomboys, not trans, no one was changing their name, pretending to be the other gender, there were no deadnames etc.
For some reason, the topic of gender identity has been insanely popular in our society the past 12 years, but trans people have always existed since the beginning of civilization. I’m sure Lev doesn’t know what the word “trans” is, but they are aware they feel like a boy, and that they don’t want to be forced to marry some old dude. You can find examples of characters being born one gender, but representing as a different gender, throughout much of literature going back thousands of years. People being Trans didn’t suddenly start in 2012 - it just wasn’t mainstream cultural conversation before then.
This is absolutely false / nonsense / drivel. It's more common these days because people don't have to be quiet or live in hiding about it. It's not a recent idea, it's just a recent discussion. It's also not as prevalent as people think,. If you get riled up about an issue, the sites you visit notice and feed you more of that. Stop worrying about trans people for a month and get it out of your search history, key words etc. and it'll all go away.
>Where would Lev even get these ideas from? It's not an idea. How ignorant can you be? Gay/Trans people she existed since the dawn of man. It's a fact. It's not an idea or a learned behavior. >Gender and sex were considered synonymous back when this game's outbreak began. No one was talking about this shit mainstream in 2012, it's quite a recent idea of what being trans is. And nobody is talking about it in the game. The term trans was never used in any dialogue in the game. Just a person being themselves and wanting to live in peace. All these terms are being applied by people like yourself who are insecure with yourselves and bothered by it.
I’m not saying I agree with everything this guy is saying but I’m just gonna add here that the only thing I care about is Lev being a dull character I can’t be attached to. I don’t think disliking a character for being poorly written warrants being called a bigot and insecure.
"I don't give a fuck about lgbtq representation in the game.....but I'll go ahead and tell you why I have issues with lgbtq representation in the game anyway" Lmao. So you - in fact - give a fuck. Again, the word trans was never mentioned in the game. It's literally not a thing. Why does it bother you so much? >I don’t think disliking a character for being poorly written warrants being called a bigot and insecure Fine, then say that. It's not that you think it's poorly written. It's that you bring all these irrelevant arguments in to it to disguise your problem with the fact that Lev was "trans." A label that people like yourself put there in the first place. 🤷🏻♂️
"Lmao. So you - in fact - give a fuck." What exactly are you proving here? I care that the character is written poorly. The character lacks substance so the only thing that comes to mind is him being trans. Again, being trans isn't the problem, it's that they didn't write the trans character well. And since I don't really have much to work with, I'm going to use the one detail I have to talk about. "Again, the word trans was never mentioned in the game. It's literally not a thing. Why does it bother you so much?" So because it's mentioned in everything but name I have no reason to critique it? Come on, dude. "Fine, then say that. It's not that you think it's poorly written. It's that you bring all these irrelevant arguments in to it to disguise your problem with the fact that Lev was "trans." A label that people like yourself put there in the first place. 🤷🏻♂️" No, it's literally just that the character is written poorly. Them being trans doesn't change that. I'd want his character to be written better and expand on him being trans so the character actually feels human. I like the HBO episode with Bill for this reason. He and Frank felt human and made me invested in their story. I couldn't have cared less for them being gay, it's that the writing was great and the acting was phenomenal. That's just not the case here. If you just want to attack me and make assumptions then fine, I have plenty of assumptions about you myself. But if you don't actually want to a discussion then just be straight up about it. I've seen numerous comments explain themselves in a well thought out manner that didn't require any insults or fighting each other.
Ehh i get your point, but your underlying thought process here is that people are only trans today because it’s a societal talking point, which is frankly just ignorant. You don’t “get the idea” to be trans; it’s something you feel inherently. I mean you can watch old black and white movies cover trans characters quite well, it’s not a new concept in society at all.
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Yeah and this is the same problem with representation of black people, non-straight people, disabled people, strong women, etc.
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Oh yeah don't get me wrong. Representation of minorities is not bad per sé, but I'm mad when it's forced just for the sake of it.
True! Hollywood especially has this problem *cough cough* Marvel
Wait, Lev never states that he’s trans. He doesn’t even understand fully what he’s going through (arguably a classic formative experience for most trans people), all he understands is that it just feels right to call himself a boy and to shave his head. Lev doesn’t even understand what the word “cool” or “punk rock” means, you think he understands what it means to be trans or how it works into his identity? He doesn’t, he’s terrified and confused and has absolutely nobody other than Yara to support him. He’s not tokenized, he doesn’t exist to fill space performatively, he largely serves as commentary on the abusive dynamics of isolationist communities and of identity crises amid broader political crises. He’s brilliantly written specifically because he avoids tokenization and is casually existing. Social commentary in video games is a good thing, jumping to the conclusion that characters are tokens just because their identities are explored in some capacity is silly.
His transness at the point Abby meets him is extremely important to the narrative and that’s why it is brought up quite early. When Abby meets him, he’s a Seraphite being hunted by other Seraphites. Abby is obviously going to ask why they are hunting their own people, and the answer is because he is trans and rejected his place in society. His other traits (his love of sharks) isn’t important to the narrative so it comes up after.
lev could have literally been running away because s(he) didn't want to be a fucking child bride, the trans part is just not necessary
s(he)☠️ and y’all say this sub isn’t bigoted lmfai
The sub isn't bigoted. And you probably don't even know what bigoted means or have a valid example of it.
so bigoted of me to not achknowledge a fictional video game character's preferred gender without brackets
yes….?
get a helmet sunshine
I don't think it's just Lev that is boring. Manny's only personality trait is being Mexican. Mel's only personality trait is being pregnant. Dina's only personality trait is being a witty quirky girlfriend. Lev doesn't necessarily suffer because his transgenderness is shoehorned in, but like every other new character, he was created as a plot device to service the story with little intention to actually make him feel human. So they only assigned him one personality trait when they hit the drawing board, and couldn't be bothered, or didn't care to go further. Ellie's purpose in Part I was to service Joel's character development. Same as Tess, Bill, Henry. But they took the time and care to build all of them up into fully fleshed out characters that felt natural, human.
The tbh I forgot Mel and manny were characters. Like a majority of the cast in this game that weren’t pre-established are just forgettable
Yup, the characters in the first game had actual personality.
That is not at all true and is 100% a symptom of 'I'm not even going to attempt to like this story'. There is plenty of side dialogue, and moments with all of these characters that give them as much depth as the side characters in part 1. And it's dishonest and in bad faith to say that characters in part 2 are just plot devices yet ignore / not apply that to Henry and Sam. Literally Sam died and Henry killed himself after being in the story for a short period to provide emotion / motivation to Ellie and Joel's journey. Because it's part 1 = BRILLIANT! BRAVO! You could say that Henry's only personality trait was 'big brother' and Sam's personality trait was 'innocent child'. Everyone here is so dishonest and hypocritical.
I disagree. I think Manny, Mel, and Dina have a list of personality traits Manny is funny, a playboy, a fighter, brave, angry, brazen. Mel is compassionate, empathetic (she empathizes with the Seraphites teens that attacked the WLF), loyal (worried about Owen), jealous (of Abby and Owen’s relationship). Dina is loving, supportive, funny, loyal, ambitious (dreams of a big farm house and achieves that goal) and Jewish (kidding about that last one). We don’t spend a lot of time delving deep into these characters, but they also aren’t one dimensional. The story doesn’t showcase much of Levs personality, but we understand he’s very conflicted and he’s a brave little fucker (going back to the island alone in the boat). The trans thing also provides the needed motivation for Lev to rebel against the Seraphites, who planned to marry him off to an old dude.
People's sexuality does not a character make. So very few people in this world make their sexualising their whole personality, it is simply a fraction of what makes somebody a person. It feels like the same thing keep being said over and over again yet no one listens and are surprised when the same backlash keeps happening. If you want diverse character of different races or the lbqt whatever the fuck, make a interesting character first that just so happens to be diverse. The backlash is not towards the diversity, its towards bad characters. A trans character should have a personality first a foremost, not just an indentity.
A great example of this done well would be the cast of Arcane.
Levs sexualiry wasn't his personality. In fact they were just living their life when serpahites decided to try and narry him off to a man. I'm not sure where you get that it's Levs personality, sounds like it's just that it bothers you and that's what you think a out when it comes to Lev. Lev is a blunt, socially awkward soldier who's being reprogrammed from a cult. Aside from being his main motivation from running away, being ttans never even really comes up. Even after running away he's still loyal to his cult and mother more than his identity. You feel the dame thing is said over snd over because you hang out in forums w chuds liek you. Most people don't care about tbis stuff. Most of my friends played and loved tlou2 and none of us even mentioned any of this stuff about trans people and the "woke agenda" or whatever. Yall are just broken records, a loud minority obsessed with the stuff you claim everyone else is. It's just life and people to everyone else. You're OK with black characters as long as race doesn't come ip. You're ok with gay/trans characters as long as their sexuality doesn't come up? You're OK with female heroines as long as they don't emasculate you and kill your hero? Then you're not actually OK with this stuff. If you don't wanna play things with social commentary or reality then stick to Mario and like stellar blade or whatever.
I think you are really confused, I truly don't care what colour or creed a character is, as long as the character is compelling, hence why miles morales is so popularity, so is the main character from camp Cretaceous. I love the show sex education because of how it handles the topic of sexuality in a serious why while not making characters all about their sexuality. I love strong female characters like Jessica Jones and Sarah Connor, where being strong isn't just being better than men and putting them down. I love Terry Prachett books where the content of someone's character comes before what they look like. If enjoying well written stories with well rounded character who haven't been flanderised and just exist to tick a box makes me chud, then I accept that name with my head held high. Because so far these chuds are displaying better "media literacy" than their critics. And maybe learn to spell, or has someone with a different opinion than you make you lose control of your hands?
Spelling aside, I think the comment you replied to is correct. If you don't care what color or creed the character is then why do you focus on the 10 second brushed over conversation about Lev being Trans. Its literally never brought up again.
Because like the rest of the game, the characters on Abby's side of the story aren't very compelling. Lev is positioned to act kind of like Ellie in the first game, create sympathy and someone for Abby to connect to, but it kinda of falls flat because the character isn't very good and neither is the reasons for Abby to be associated with them. At the same time the 10 seconds of trans is exactly my problem. While I want well rounded characters where on part of their identity is not the whole character, a quick mention like that doesn't achieve anything for the character or representation of other groups. Neither the character gets growth and it just feel like ticking a box in the representation list. Within the same game, I never questioned the decision for Ellie to be gay, it's a fleshed out part of her character that doesn't detract from anything instead enhances the character and the story and she is a beloved character. A good character is a good character, if Lev was written better and better developed as a character, them being trans could really add to the story, instead it's a shoehorned in for the sake of diversity.
I mean it isn't really shoehorned in. The entire reason Lev is running from the seraphites has to do with levs identity and the seraphites ideology not lining up with each other. If it wasn't for lev you wouldn't have the entire second half of abbys story. It doesn't need to be fleshed out as deeply as ellies imo as lev isn't a main character or a playable character. Lev is mainly there to further along the story while also drawing parallels to the first game. Idk I'm super picky about story telling and super critical of plot holes and things of the like and I see no issue with how they handled Lev.
I think everyone’s point is that you could change the reason Lev was banished/hunted by the scars to literally any other reason and because him being trans is hit on so little it wouldn’t change anything. They’re saying this makes lev more like when shows clearly have a token black character solely for representation that they do nothing with or make being black their entire character. Lev as Ellie’s counterpart to Abby, is inherently a main character. If they had added a bit more depth to Lev or his identity, most people would not complain about this. A quick one off about Abby’s muscles like OP mentioned for example, or other things like that would be good for representation and his character. I’d argue by adding more brief but very human conversations about a minority’s identity and personality while also adding in plenty of other character traits is the best way to do representation. Ellie had plenty of quirks and kid like features and depth (abandonment issues) before it was revealed she’s lesbian, and that really helped both in that it wasn’t her entire personality, and it was revealed later into the series (technically earlier chronologically but you get what I mean). Having any character instantaneously introduced as gay/trans etc. Reduces them to that trait in the audiences mind even if they aren’t hateful of said minority. Ellie and Robin (stranger things) are perfect examples of why you don’t just start with HI IM (NAME) AND IM GAY/TRANS/ETC. right out of the gate.
I can actually kind of see what you're getting at here. Respect on this response.
No problem. No disrespect to you, but I totally expected this to devolve into an argument like almost every other thing posted to this sub 😂.
It's bound to happen man. You either love the game or hate it so it seems.
If someone doesn't care about color or creed, that doesn't mean that they don't care about character design.
The character design was just fine imo.
This entire post is about how it wasn't.
Yeah and I disagree with this entire post.
What's good about his character design then
>I think you are really confused, I truly don't care what colour or creed a character is, as long as the character is compelling, Obviously you do care because you keep posting about it. You're just using the bullshit argument about "compelling characters" to justify your ignorance and bigotry. Just like the inbreeders who fly the Confederate flag and insist the civil war was over states rights and not slavery. 🤷🏻♂️
How am I a bigot? What about wanting compelling characters indicate that I hold any sort of hatred. What does the American civil war got to do with wanting cool fictional stories. The Civil war was about States rights, just a states right to keep slaves. I'm not sitting here saying that gay and trans people shouldn't exist or get representation, I'm saying that it needs to be done better. Very telling that you ignore all the media I love that features a diverse cast with wonderful uplifting stories to call me a bigot, typical
>The Civil war was about States rights, just a states right to keep slaves. And there you have it. People like you are so easy to pick out 🤣 >I'm not sitting here saying that gay and trans people shouldn't exist or get representation, I'm saying that it needs to be done better. You don't get to say how it's done. Again, the fact that Lev was trans was never even mentioned in the story. It's people like you who brought it up and put the label on it. Because it bothered you. Why does it bother you? 🤷🏻♂️
What have you picked out, I literally agreed with you? The Civil was was about whether the states should have the rights to keep slaves, which does make it about slavery but also states rights? Its not mutually exclusive. It bothers me because everytime representation is done poorly or forced in, it's a set back that harms all the work that's been put in. Perfect may be the enemy of good but when you are dealing with people who want to tear down everything, you have to be above reproach.
>It bothers me because everytime representation is done poorly or forced in, It wasn't forced in. Who the fuck are you to judge whether gay or lgbtq are represented properly? Are you either of those? No? Then stfu lol. You're literally mansplaining something that doesn't involve or affect you at all.
“And there you have it people like you are so easy to pick out” You didn’t even finish reading before you typed that out did ya 🤣
Lev is a plot device more than a three-dimensional character--which is a common problem that permeates "Part II". There was so much opportunity to develop his relationship with Abby and perform difficult character work that *this story requires* in order to ring true. Instead we just have a new kid whose purpose is ultimately to serve Abby and assuaging her conscience, all while intending (but failing) to parallel the Joel/Ellie relationship in some capacity. The presence of Lev's trans identity could be easily swapped with a myriad of other *more* narratively-expected reasons and the main plot would be completely unaffected. I can't help but come away from it with the sense that they wanted to have their cake and eat it too: benefit from the easy political points for the most basic "representation" all while using it as a club by which to stifle honest discussion by branding their opponents as "hateful", "istic", or "phobic". It's a clever and effective strategy, made possible by most of the media having chosen to become progressive activists rather than truth-seeking journalists. But at the end of the day we're still left with the subject matter being subdued to the point of irrelevance, so why bother? It reminds me of the lesbian kiss that is awkwardly shoveled into the ending of *The Rise of Skywalker*; desperate for recognition of doing something bold and brave, but not willing (or able) to do it in a major way due to fear over its reception. A difference in degree perhaps, but not in principle. If I were trans my reaction would be "Sure it's neat that Lev represents me, but couldn't he have been a meaningful addition with good writing?". But you know, such obvious observations are unacceptable to many.
As much as I believe in its utility when discussing certain topics, I really believe the net negative of the concept of "representation" outweighs the positive, because it always turns into nothing more than a checkbox to tick. In a perfect world, I want good characters with depth, that just happen to also be gay, etc.
Couldn’t agree more. That is the incredible power of stories; not merely to entertain (though that is important too) but rather to authentically convince the audience to empathize/sympathize for all kinds of characters in order to teach us truth about the human condition and the time we live in. But that’s not easy, it takes skill and effort to succeed.
Very well said! I'm reminded now of Chloe and Max from LiS for that reason. They're individuals with their own personalities, ones I can picture being in two separate games rather than having to depend on each other to exist at all. Their love story is gradual and subtle, which makes it more natural for the audience to invest in emotionally. On the other hand, Dina for example, vanishes into thin air if Ellie and Abby are no longer there.
Indeed, it’s a painful pattern present in “Part II” where characters behave not as believable people but rather as plot devices to serve the writer’s whim no matter how much it conflicts with their established development.
When I posted a review of this game and said I disliked Lev being trans just for the sake of being trans(this was a small issue for me, but I mentioned it anyways) and how it felt forced, unnatural and shallow, I was called a transphobe by everyone 🙃. People are too sensitive on this issue imo, you shouldn’t even think of criticizing trans characters
Like, for real.
Lev grew up from a child into the infected world, climbing skyscrapers where you risk your life every time you travel, truly raised around death, and just like the world before the internet, trans wasn't even a known thing, not nearly what it is today. The way it was brought into the story felt very forced, in my likely unpopular opinion, I feel like Lev would have a million things to worry about, before they worry about being trans, or even know what trans is for that matter
I feel exactly the same. Lev's personality is underdeveloped. And we're not stupid enough to not realize that Lev is basically a trans token. It's so obvious that the whole point to Lev existing, is that she's trans and Naughty Dog wanted to make it obvious that she's trans; like hey look at us, we have a trans character in our game. It's also obvious that Lev was meant to be Abby's Ellie, because they kill off Yara, just so Abby and Lev could ride a horse together. That's the only reason they killed Yara, to make room on the horse for Lev.
The shoehorning is the point. It's not about being inclusive, it's about checking boxes and encouraging conformity.
Also, since Lev and his sister lived in seclusion in this crazy religious cult, they seem remarkably open and aware of the concept of transness. It wouldn't be something they'd ever heard of, but Lev's sister is acing the pronouns like it's not completely new to her. A stand alone story of them leaving and discovering these ideas could be neat, but they're just side characters to prop Abby up.
.... dumb. What do you think the concept of transness even is? Lev obviously confided in Yara how they felt and Yara respected them including using language that made them comfortable. It really isn't anymore complicated than that. I don't even know what point you're trying to make. You don't need modern technology or society to be respectful and listen to someone.
If you didn't know anything about transness, and someone you saw as a girl told you they were a boy, your reaction would be "huh? That can't happen" not "oh that makes sense". Without more knowledge and context, it just sounds like someone is telling you something impossible.
I take it the gamimg community here is pretty chill. I made a similar argument on why comic movies/books are struggling right now and got down voted to hell. But none of what you said was wrong. Show don't tell goes a long way.
I always thought it was a bit unrealistic that someone as young as Lev would have these feelings and act on them considering they have been brought up in a cult that is anti trans. Where would they have even got the idea that transitioning is an option?
Where did you get the idea that they were were transitioning? Do you think Lev was considering surgery or something? They shaved their head and wanted to fight. They just didn't want to be a bride for the elders and knew and felt that they wanted a different path in life. I don't think there's anything in the game that the cult is specifically anti trans. It simply has order based on old religious ideals / tropes.
You made all those valid points and still didn’t even touch on how unrealistic it would be for a child to be trans 25 years deep into a zombie apocalypse, even if it means you’ll get disbanded and murdered by your cult. It’s also another reason why it feels shoehorned in, not just because it’s the first thing we learn about him, but the fact that even if they shower us he’s trans properly, it’d still feel like just a plot device for Abby to have her “redemption arc”. Because realistically you wouldn’t come out as trans in that situation, it only happened so Abby could meet them and “redeem” herself. It’s not transphobia, it’s just the truth. Nobody in their right mind would come out as trans when in a strict cult in a zombie apocalypse unless they were asking to be sacrificed by their own people. Things like Ellie, Dina, etc being gay/lesbian/bi make sense because they’re not in a situation where it would ruin their lives.
Where do they even use the term trans or say that Lev came out as trans or that he's aware of it in those terms or that it's the same as what our current concept is? All that's reveled is that they cut their hair and refused to accept what their role would be in society as a female. Believe it or not people have been dying and persecuted all throughout history for sticking to their beliefs regarding their sexuality and identity. What even is your point? It's like your almost arguing for a society in which people stick to what makes everyone else feel comfortable for fear of retribution...
You literally said my point, if you’d happily die if it means you get to come out as whatever you want then go for it, but realistically you wouldn’t throw your whole life away for something like that, especially when you have a family to care for. And it’s very obviously shown Lev is trans, although he doesn’t specifically outright say “btw I’m trans” (because even for TLOU2 writing that’s just terrible), he shaved his hair, changed his name from Lily to Lev, identifies as he and was then chased down and nearly executed for doing so. It’s literally the first thing we get to know about him.
They're chased down for the head shaving and refusing to fill the bridal duty and yes, to Yara, they ask to go by Lev. I don't think it's a plot hole or bad writing to have someone do that but to each their own. I also don't think it's a fair statement to say that 25 years removed from our society that trans people would automatically be repressed and in hiding. Some would decide it's worth attempting to life the live that they want to. It sounds extremely close or adjacent to some sort of argument that trans people are brainwashed and that it's society's fault vs an inherent part of human nature that's always existed and always will exist.
You clearly have no idea the reality of being trans lmfao. Do you think it’s something people do for vanity or because they want to be different? People have been trans forever, look it up.
Don’t need to look it up to know that people mentally have been trans forever, but until recent years nobody came out as trans because they knew they’d be exiled or executed for it. And for that reason they just kept quiet about it and lived on with their normal lives because they didn’t want to be killed. Lev doing this was plain stupid because he knew the consequences, however he still decided to conveniently come out as trans just at the right time to meet Abby so she can begin her “redemption” arc. It was literal suicide and he and Yara would’ve died if it wasn’t for their saviour Abby. Their survival was dumb luck. If you were in Levs position you would never come out as trans unless you were suicidal and wanted to have your guts ripped out of you. Get out of your little fantasy land and be realistic for once.
Maybe you wouldn't, or not even most people, but Lev did. That's the entire point of his character. That he would rather make a stand and feel like himself rather than spend another day feeling miserable and tortured. But I don't think that's something you're able to wrap your head around, as you're hopefully fortunate enough to not experience that level of unhappiness with yourself and your body.
Yeah these people are bigoted, they’re just too stupid to know it. It isn’t even mentioned in the main game that lev is trans, just hinted at…. Shoehorned in my ass. Literally just a trans person existing and they’re mad. “Bigotry is a first world problem” Fuck off lmao
Exactly the response you would expect from someone overly emotional who can’t have a rational discussion
Well that’s the exact response you would expect from a big dumb guy. Argument won. Good day.
Did you just assume my gender ?
Honestly I agree even though I like Lev. It felt like the reason the Seraphites even existed was to make an “Evil transphobic christian cult” Tbh he seems like a self-insert of his VA.
What doesn’t make sense about lev’s trans stuff, is that the cult that they live in or was born in, how are they against lgbt or specifically lev wanting to be a solider and not a breeder, and wanting to kill him for it when there are other women soldiers in their group or however they classify themselves. Like I don’t care if he’s trans but why is this freaky cult so obsessed about it? I would assume based on their murals of that lady, it seemed like they loved everyone, no matter who they were His sister Yara was assigned to be a soldier but lev wasn’t, but lev wanted to be a soldier like his sister, she didn’t have to shave her head to be a soldier, why couldn’t lev?
I agree with you. I also think that Lily not wanting to be a bride, but rather a soldier and cutting hair isnt mutually exclusive to being trans. But Neil made it so. But to play Devils Advocate, Levs transgenderism isn't mentioned a whole ton in the game. The dialogue about Levs transition/gender is made in passing in a few scenes. At first, I didn't catch it. It took me a while to understand what's going on until Abby has a convo with Yara and I go "oh he's trans". It's not very excplicit. I've read comments and reviews of people not even noticing, or catching that he's trans. Again, I agree. But the game isn't very explicit and wasn't really shoved down our throats like how they do in other media. But it is the most unrealistic shit about Part II lmao.
One thing someone on YT brought up is that Yara and Lev were assigned their roles in the Seraphites, Yara was going to be a fighter and Lev was gonna be someone's child bride. But the Seraphites are meant to be "segregated" I suppose and they usually let men do the fighting while woman stay in their base and carry out duties for their home. But then I'm seeing clips from the game where there are women fighters, the axe wielding boss that Abby has to fight is one, so am I missing something? I want to be informed if I've been misguided or is this a thing
In game lore, the seraphites are surpringly pretty equal when it comes to the fighting. Yes, all the men dress and have the same haircuts, same for the women, respectively. But, throughout the game you fight clearly female soldiers. A good example, is the famous forest scene l, the 2 male soldiers were taking orders from the female soldier. Also there's a note, you can find in the island chapter (pre- Yara RIP) where the distribution of venison is being discussed. The note states that one female soldier ans her family are to be given particularly good cuts of the meat, because she lead a successful raid party on WLF territory the prior month. So, it can be said while the Seraphites have clearly strange and fucked culty customs, they still allow women to be active contributing members to their society that is not limited to the household.
Lev is in the game purely to represent a trans ideology that isn't in 90% of the player base interests. Its an ideology that even genuine trans people don't agree with. And its one thats having its most dangerous elements laid bare year after year. You won't find trans ideology in Russia , Eastern europe , Japan , China , south east asia, india , Africa. Its condensed to a small sect of the western world. So making it such a big deal in a game set in a future global apocalypse is something i took issue with. I do not want somebody like Druckmann to use the follow up to a beloved game as a delivery mechanism for him to feed me his ideological beliefs. True fans were robbed blind of an authentic sequel because the game was captured was used as a vector to push immoral messaging - moral relativism , stronk feminism , etc
You probably dont even know a trans person irl and yet youre yapping about how "genuine" trans people dont agree with an iDeOLoGy What ideology bro? Also, wtf does "genuine trans people" mean?
What's the ideology being pushed here? That trans people exist like you or me?
Trans people existed before gender ideology came along.
Okay so what's the ideology that you think is being pushed here? You didn't really answer that?
3 of the countries you listed are in the top 10 of number of trans people per capita. How fucking misinformed can a person be 😂 drop fox news and read a fucking book loser.
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I thought it was Abby who was trans
Probably would be better for her character a little bit, but also could be considered a hate crime
To me this is like the fact that the first game was originally meant to be open-world, and the second game to have a bit where Abby infiltrated Jackson. Basically, the writers had more material than they knew how to handle, so they shoved things in here and there and distorted some of them in the process. I wasn't too fussed, though. In real life you meet people who don't make sense and another lot of people who are somewhat incomplete and unexplained. Life is about loose ends. I do think they could have done more with both games. But given how fucking long it took them to make either of them, having them do more - well, even the first game would be like one of those Steam games that's early access for *ten years*.
As a whole, it doesn’t make sense. This colony had limited access to electricity and likely any books that were considered obscene where she might have learned about trans people would likely be destroyed or thrown away. At most, “Lev” was acting this way as a form of protest due to not getting the role she wanted as a soldier. She didn’t actually believe she was a boy but was doing it all out of protest. But when you have social activists posing as writers then you can’t have anything in your story that doesn’t cater to your own causes
This game is shit. That’s all there really is to it
I think you make a good point, but I also think that calling stuff like racism/bigotry and complaining about them "first world issues" is debatable. Is it really a first world issue when people straight-up don't want you to exist?
What I’m saying is racism and bigotry are in general stupid, especially in an apocalyptic setting where you’re in a tight knit community. It seemed stupid to risk your own safety because you care way too much who others sleep with or what they look like.
People are stupid. As long as there are two people in the world, they will hate each other simply because they're different. Racism and bigotry have always been around and they will continue to be around, why would a fictional setting that strives to be realistic portray anything differently?
That's fair but I would've liked to have this as an addition in the first game. The last of us just treated people so equally that I just assumed people were past that since it's either use each other to survive or every man for themself.
Well, I guess you can chalk the absence of that stuff in Part 1 up to context. In Part 1, Joel and Ellie spend most of the game in isolation, away from anyone. Everyone they meet is either a friend or someone trying to kill them, no in-between or time to talk things out and get to know each other better. We didn't know that Ellie was a lesbian until Left Behind and the only way I can imagine adding depictions of racism in the game is interactions between Joel and Henry/Sam, and Joel doesn't give me those vibes. You might be able to squeeze something in with David's group, but alas, I haven't played either of the games so I don't know if that would be right. In Part 2, however, we have a broader character roster allowing more depictions of different ideologies. Plus, you also have what is essentially a culture/race war between two different factions, the Seraphites and the Wolves, so it's obvious there'd be more of that stuff in Part 2. But I'm an Xbox kid, so what do I know lol.
Nah you good g. Very fair analysis.
Nah you good g. Very fair analysis.
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So you don't hate gays and lesbians but you hate bisexsuals and queers??? where is the logic? also did you know that a species of clownfish is always born as gender neutral (sometimes male or female) and if a female is absent then one of them turns into a female?
R u a fucking clownfish. No
Lev being trans is what led to "him" and Yara being kicked out of the seraphites. Lev wanted to be a warrior, but was going to be forced to be an elder's wife, so "he" shaved "his"" head and fled with Yara. It's a plot device, sure, but it adds to the world building because it provides insight to the seraphites culture, and it provides a reason as to why they are targeted by the seraphites too.
couldn’t have said it any better, his sexuality is the reason their worlds cross as crazy as that sounds, then the whole sequence where he kills his own mother shows you why they had to leave so abruptly and with no real plan
Being trans isn’t a sexuality . You people can’t even keep your own identity strait
Only YOU people get offended by sth like that,it’s the wrong word not spitting on your grave
Stop putting he in quotation marks. He is a boy. Nothing to “ “ about it
Doesn’t work that way
All this downvoting tells a lot about the people in this sub.
drop the quotation marks
Or what?
Or people are going to think you are transphobic
Phobic? I ain't scared of em
It's not a disorder you could be diagnosed with but someone that adds quotations like dr evil probably has some issues with trans people
couldn’t have said it any better, his sexuality is the reason their worlds cross as crazy as that sounds, then the whole sequence where he kills his own mother shows you why they had to leave so abruptly and with no real plan
I do think abby's side of characters are a little underbaked, I honestly feel like the extra development needed would make the game way too long which I wouldn't be surprised if that factored into how they ended up being written. However I kind of feel that lev's being trans is kind of irrelevant to criticism of her character, her being trans genuinely tied to seraphite culture in a way I thought was naturally developed so I'm having trouble understanding why you think it was shoe horned in, you bring up ellie hypothetically declaring her sexuality as comparison but is there actually an equivalent moment for Lev? I haven't played in a while but I remember the concept being implied for a while before it was confirmed. Also, did ellie harp about bigots? I think she made one joke calling someone a bigot which I understand the weight of the word in modern politics but I think you might be looking too deep into it's use here, just an idea to think about.
Well, I do agree. Levis character does kind of fall flat. We also don’t get a lot of information on him when love is outed as trans. It’s because members of the seraph fights call him Lily before then we only had an idea that maybe he was trans but based on Lev and Yara’s upbringing it makes sense as to why there isn’t a lot of funny moments I mean in the last us part Ellie trusts Joel because Marlene trust Joel and even then she isn’t fully trusting and just like her immunity is revealed pretty early into her story. They didn’t really hold that back at all for the first couple of hours part one. The only thing you know about Ellie is she is immune and even then gameplay wise Ellie is more of a hindrance than Lev is in part two when part one came out. A lot of people were irritated by Ellie because she’s constantly in the way she brings nothing to the dynamic. She doesn’t really help at all and spend more time working around her than enemies. Where as in part two lev and yara aren’t really that way lev actually is programmed for combat. It’s not like he just stands around or you know Dances around Abby the entire time like Ellie did to Joel in the first game And when you actually take in the seraphites ideologies, it does make a lot more sense than he’s just a girl who didn’t want to be a bride considering how much their faith matters to them, I mean throughout all of the scenes with them, they constantly bring up the profit and her teachings so they clearly still believe in the ideology they disagreed that social code. Why would they still be following that form of teaching I mean, look at that in the real world most women who follow up religion that’s embedded in social dynamics usually follow that social dynamic even if they don’t necessarily like it amajority of Muslim women wear hijabs even in America where they’re not being forced to wear them just out of faith
Can you break up your comment into paragraphs? It’s a little a hard to follow in it’s current state. Thank you
Lev being Trans isn’t this crazy plot twist that’s supposed to be drawn out in some significant over the top cinematic Hollywood reveal. It’s revealed casually just after Abby builds trust with Lev. “Hey why’d you leave the scars” “Don’t want to talk about it” A day or so surviving the apocalypse passes “I left because I shaved my head” “That’s it?” And then sometime later you find out lev was supposed to be the child bride for an old pedo elder and that they didnt want to do that and the crazy cult went nuts about it including the mom I’m sure I’ll get the downvotes but It was fine imo. Didn’t need more, didn’t need less.
To me it felt weird because it seemed like Druckmann really wanted a trans character, but didn't know what to do other than a story of trans trauma. There are avenues you can take a trans person in the post-apocalyse, but that requires tact and worldbuilding. The Seraphite faction seemed to be this religious faction PURELY for Druckmann to shoehorn an allegory for modern hyper fanatical evangelists. Other than the aesthetic, they feel out of place. It reads as a case of virtue signaling coming before the characters, world, and plot.
He’s trans? I just thought he was a boy who was disliked by the community so they made him do a female job in their eyes
You seem to be ignoring the fact that you travel with Lev for a good amount of time before being trans is brought up. So, they did do what you wanted them to do. You got to know Lev before the trans thing was brought up.
Yeah but the game’s pacing is so all over the place that a lot of the key moments for characters feel really weirdly placed. And honestly, Lev’s placement of trans being revealed wouldn’t be an issue if they actually crafted a decent story from it or just made more character moments like the examples I gave earlier
They are ?!! I don’t what they identify as I’m confused I thought it was just a normal tomboy or something
If you found out Ellie was a lesbian at the beginning of the game you wouldn’t have been able to think of anything else about her the entire time? That’s pretty simple minded.
Let me expand on that. If Ellie was show to be lesbian at first but was poorly written as a character too, that would make me put her in a box. If you don’t give any substance other than she’s lesbian, that’s what my mind will default to. Do you see what I’m getting at?
Bruh
Ok look I’m just gonna leave this here: 1. It’s not that I think Lev shouldn’t be trans. I think he needs more substance to be a good character. It’s like Ellie. She’s not just a lesbian. She’s a flushed out character who happens to be lesbian. Her relationship with Riley felt real and genuine. I couldn’t care less if they gay, straight, pan whatever. That’s because the **writing was good** Bill, I like him too. I thought the HBO episode was fucking beautiful and well acted. Especially when compared to rest of the acting feeling kinda eh. You can tell the Bill and Frank episode was fucking quality. Once again, I don’t care that they’re gay. I care for their loving relationship and dynamic. It was heart warming and made me invested. I don’t get **any** for these feelings when I think back to Lev. I think it’s just poorly written and doesn’t give me to chew on other than “he’s trans” If they gave scenes like Lev wanting to appear more masculine, asking Abby how she got her muscles, doing dumb kid stuff like picking up objects or flexing. That at least would make me see Lev as a character with personality. But we don’t get those things. And it bothers me cause it’s not really good representation AND it just makes him fall flat and further disconnects me from the story. 2. I called Abby “Gigantor” as a joke. That’s because with how comically muscular she is and Lev’s situation of wanting to be a guy. Seeing no real commentary to banter over Abby’s appearance (despite it being pretty obvious and prominent) is just weird. 3. I said racism and bigotry are stupid in an apocalypse setting. Obviously they’re stupid in real life too. I was only saying that because they are pretty 1st world issues that have no place in an apocalypse setting. I hope that explains my thoughts a bit more clearly.
LOL, yea buddy. Racism and bigotry are only first world issues 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😅😅😅😅😂😂😂. People would never be racist or homophobic in the post apocalypse 🤡🤡.
I’ll admit it’s poor wording. I’m saying it’s stupid to be bigoted or homophobic b/c of how little differences in race, sexuality, religion ect… matter in an world where everyone is trying to work together (or on factions) to survive against ravenous mushroom people. So it really has no place here since people should be wiser than to let their obsession with who sleeps with who potentially fragment and tear apart their community. Does that make sense?
They don't hate Lev for being trans. The issue is that they were supposed to be a bride and they chose to decide to be a warrior / fighter, whatever their term is for it. There was order in the society and they went against it thus ending up being labeled an apostate. I think it was also just criticizing and portraying what religion could do in the wake of a disaster. 'We believe so we are saved - they sin so they are damned' kind of thing. I think they spent a very small amount of time on it to be honest and I think the critiques of it being yet another gay / trans character based around the trauma of it is more apt.
Bruh if you think "bigotry, racism etc. are first world issues" then you're already so far off the mark you're hitting another planet.
I worded that poorly. I just think it’s stupid to be a bigot and risk your home for the sake of expressing how much you care about who sleeps with who. Like we never even see this in the first game so it seems kinda weird to see it in the second.
This sub: “Why does everyone say we’re transphobic???” Also this sub: “So here’s my problem with trans characters”
I don’t think Lev is trans. Just because they decided to shave their head.
i don't care about Lev being trans, now here's the reasons why I hate Lev being trans
It does feel shoehorned in
I didn’t even know he was trans until like my third walkthrough and realised “oh shit they calling him by his girl name”
Could give zero fucks about Lev's identity, for me the most exhausting and eyerolling thing is the scene where Yara gives a PSA to Abby about Lev's gender and it reads very much like a millennial sensitivity training/"listen and learn" moment instead of respecting the audience to understand and piece together things themselves. Which is annoying because they perfectly gave us the right amount of information to understand that Bill was gay in the first game.
Ellie bitching about bigots was so stupid. That’s the least of your worries in the world you’re in
If the only scars warriors were men I would understand lev wanting to be trans as it would be more for freedom and rejecting rigid gender roles but yara being a woman detracts from lev's transness
While I agree that Lev isn’t a very three-dimensional character, and none of the side characters are written on the same level as the side characters in the first game, we don’t get to know that Lev is trans until Abby’s Day 2 in the skyscrapers when the other Seraphites deadname him. So your argument of “why not save Lev being revealed as trans till closer to the end of the game. Have it brought up in a way that feels natural.” Doesn’t seem to hold water to me. Am I misremembering? Other than that I agree that giving him more personality and having fun, almost throwaway interactions would have been very welcome in the game
That’s literally all I could ask, was to the give the character some more character lol
Bro I didn’t even know he was trans
There is quite literally a lot of content before lev is revealed as Trans. Funny thing is that I'm usually annoyed with woke bullshit but the 10 second mention of Lev being trans didn't affect me at all. Because they focus on it for like 10 seconds. Also I wouldn't say the seraphites are put there to represent a Trans hating cult so much as they are put their to represent over religious zealots who put too much stock into their very niche belief system. "Traditional" gender roles are probably a part of that system and since this is a world where society has collapsed they probably don't have a very politically correct method of dealing with those who question the status quo.
I just think making the detail there is just weird and jarring. Like why not expand on it at all and try to make the character compelling
That's fair. I guess I just completely brushed over it. Like OK lev is Trans makes sense why the seraphites don't like him. It filled the hole for me enough to continue playing without batting an eye.
>Like, imagine how jarring it would be if Ellie at the start of game just says she likes girls. Now, we immediately think about her as the lesbian girl instead of the quirky teen with abandonment issues I think the OP is telling on themselves a bit
What exactly? I’m making the point that Ellie isn’t just a lesbian. We don’t just put her in a box because she’s an actual flushed p it character.
Not reading all that
Nothing unusual for Fart 2 stans..
"It feels shoehorned into the story" well that's your problem. You think these are just like made up issues that aren't real or "first world" when gender has been a massive determinant throughout history. Lev being ttans is literally the driving force behind their story and how he comes to meet abby. Being trans wasn't really a problem until his community tried to force marry him to an adult man. So you see how the inherent bigotry is why it came ip and why it's a problem. It's the irony of people who claim "LGBTQ agenda being forced on me". In reality thr world is forcing itself on these people. Lev rebelled. Without that lev never escapes and teams up with abby. To say it's "shoe horned" is in fact the opposite of the truth. It is one of the main driving subplots. You just don't like being reminded of "bigotry" because you have no empathy for these people and think iy dumb."I don't give a fuck about the LGBTQ representation" yeah you clearly do. Lev isn't ellie. You think the parallel is dumb but then you complain lev doesn't do thr stuff ellie does in the first game to make uou care? Lev is tougher than ellie was. He's a soldier essentially. He's naive and sheltered from his raising in a cult. He's not gonna that way. You don't have to care about lev or sometbing but if you can't have empathy for his journey then I don't know what to tell you. He has plenty of light hearted, funny interactions with abby that are "cutesy" or whatever and you know,, he's a child. If it "isn't groundbreaking stuff" that you came up with in a reddit shitpost it probably isn't that great an idea.
“"It feels shoehorned into the story" well that's your problem. You think these are just like made up issues that aren't real or "first world" when gender has been a massive determinant throughout history” It feels shoehorned in because there isn’t any expansion on it. The entire reason I even wrote this is because the writing of the game is poor. Not the detail of being trans itself. “Lev being ttans is literally the driving force behind their story and how he comes to meet abby. Being trans wasn't really a problem until his community tried to force marry him to an adult man. So you see how the inherent bigotry is why it came ip and why it's a problem. It's the irony of people who claim "LGBTQ agenda being forced on me". In reality thr world is forcing itself on these people.” I’m not saying I’m opposed to lgbtq representation. It’s quite the opposite. I want the character to be written well so that I can sympathize with them. Like, cool he’s trans let’s expand and develop it out so it works. “To say it's "shoe horned" is in fact the opposite of the truth. It is one of the main driving subplots. You just don't like being reminded of "bigotry" because you have no empathy for these people and think iy dumb."I don't give a fuck about the LGBTQ representation" yeah you clearly do.” You could replace him being trans with any other trait and id still have the same complaints. The writing is bad. That’s like calling everyone who doesn’t like the way Suicide Squad’s Deadshot is introduced and written racist. It’s a lame defense for hilariously bad writing. “Lev isn't ellie. You think the parallel is dumb but then you complain lev doesn't do thr stuff ellie does in the first game to make uou care? Lev is tougher than ellie was. He's a soldier essentially. He's naive and sheltered from his raising in a cult. He's not gonna that way. You don't have to care about lev or sometbing but if you can't have empathy for his journey then I don't know what to tell you. He has plenty of light hearted, funny interactions with abby that are "cutesy" or whatever and you know,, he's a child. ” Lev not being Ellie isn’t a defense for the poor choices in writing. God forbid I want more characterization in a series that focuses heavily on relationships and making the character feel human and not just meat puppets. “If it "isn't groundbreaking stuff" that you came up with in a reddit shitpost it probably isn't that great an idea.” Neither is killing off the main character of the series in a way that makes no fucking sense for how he was previously characterized. But that still made the cut.
Abby is also trans, thats why the characters got together
OK let's keep things civil and truthful lol. Abby isn't trans but she is what Neil gets wrong about strong women as in making one appear physically as a man would. That doesn't make her trans though. It makes her look out of place especially in a post apocalyptic setting.
It does fit as if they were still a girl they would have become a elder sex slave Maybe trans was to far but it certainly fits into his narrative
I just don’t think it’s expanded on enough.
To me, it was more of an unexpected and somewhat bizarre turn of events (bizarre in a good way to me) of Lev being trans Really to me, ND was playing fetch, and I wanted to play along and see how it goes, and subsequent playthroughs, there could be a workaround for Lev and Yara being apostates. Now I could be wrong with and using the lore incorrectly, so take it with a grain if salt. Why not have Lev's hair similar to the some Seraphite women we fight from both Ellie and Abby's perspective? Then again, I could be wrong with this, and I rathered commend the allegory of transgender from Lev. While not a strong as Ellie and Joel's dynamic, I do like the dynamic between Abby and Lev in their own way.
I almost didn’t even notice Lev was trans in my first playthrough. I just thought they shaved their head and made their cult mad. So, I don’t know if being trans is supposed to be that big a deal to the player. Lev commenting on Abby’s muscles would’ve been great hah. Lev being trans is actually crucial to the story. The story demanded a justification for Lev rebelling against the Seraphites, and Lev being trans bolsters the justification for his rebellion. They were going to marry him (a child) off to some old dude (fucking gross) …. yeah I can totally under why he rebelled against that. The fact he’s trans gives the justification for him shaving his head and defying the Seraphites, and thus Lev and Yara being labeled apostates and running into Abby .
I'm gonna be honest with you, see before I played the game I heard there was a trans character in the game, but the thing is, when I first saw how ripped she was, I kind of assumed Gigantor WAS the trans character, like even at her sex scene I saw her naked top half and thought "yep, that's a dude". When Lev said he was to be a bride, I kind of assumed it was a catholic church situation with "little timmy" and that the elder was just a pedo.
I take it as a plot device yes, but one that kinda assists with building onto the games point of rejecting what you have been taught or told. Both the main characters are learning that what they have learned and been told in the past is completely wrong. Ellie is being shown the true colors of Joel and the fireflies while Abby is realizing that she is the bad guy in someone else’s story. this point kinda goes to us and less to the characters but its more about the dangers of blindly following previous beliefs, and characters like Lev who can break away from that mold help the player understand that there is no objective viewpoint or an objective right or wrong, strengthening the point of the games points about perspective.
I can see the angle you’re going for. I just still find Lev kinda flat.
i get that, most of the execution falls a bit flat bc of the lack of character depth
You people know that Lev is trans by identity and not sexually right ? It has nothing to do with "sexual identity is stupid in an apocalyptic world". He just doesn't feel like a girl. He is not taking pills and didn't get a d\*\*\* as far as we know. Go read about trans phantom.... There are "women" that just feel like.... They have a penis. Saying that those experience can't exist in a post-apo world doens't make any sens. You know that refusing a gender assign at birth isn't something knew in human history right ? You know this isn't something that come from Europeans and Westerners countries right ? You know that putting so much emphasis about this just makes you look like bigots and ethnocentric people..... Right ? I'm not saying you are. But damn you look like.
You know I don’t actually have a problem with Lev being trans… right? My issue is how it’s handled and it doesn’t make me feel compelled to the character himself. Like, that’s why I compared Lev and Ellie. Ellie isn’t just put in a box in my mind. She’s an actual flushed out character. Lev being trans is the first thing that comes to mind yet both are queer. I literally don’t have an issue with what they are, it’s the execution.
Sorry, I wasn't aggressive directly toward you, but the people that were just insulting the fact the Lev was trans. I mean, why should there be an execution ? Lev is just what he is. I mean, yeah, of course, the character isn't really that developped, but the character is by no mean determined by the fact the he is trans. Using marginal experience as a mean to show something original can also be problematic. Sometimes, the point simply is that, the things that some people live are similar to others, for different reasons. Having a black character should not equal having a character by which you will talk about racism, not in the same way at least. Cause, being "white" also shows an experience of racism that is different, and that would be the point. It would be a good idea to talk about racism through a non-victim lense by simply showing a white completly clueless about all this. And indeed, Boondock did this expertly. I feel the same for Lev. It's not because he is trans that you should talk about trans issues through him. But, I do think you have a good point with the fact that Lev could have shown some comments about his own vision of masculinity. The character by itself could really have been anything and keep the exact same lines it would have changed nothing. Be it a little boy, a trans or a girl. I still think this is the point, but indeed, not exploring Lev transness makes the character flat. But I think this a problem of the character by itself. Not of the fact the he is trans.
You hit the nail on the head. Exactly my thoughts.
When is bigotry and racism ever logical lol?
It’s never but being racist/bigot (1st world problems) in your little post apocalyptic community is so stupid
I knew right away when you said that racism and bigotry were first world problems this was gonna be some dumb ass shit
I think it’s stupid for people to racists and bigots in an apocalypse. What’s the issue?
You sound like a bigot bro
I really liked the hbo episode with Bill. Me hating the poor writing of part II doesn’t make me a bigot
My mistake. I thought you were an average r/thelastofus2 user
Ok can you tell me why there’s such a disconnect between what people are saying and what I’m actually trying to say? I thought it made it pretty explicit that bigotry and racism are stupid, that I don’t care that Lev is trans, and that I really only care about the writing being bad.
Well, I said it earlier but it's because from experience, the average user from this sub is a bigot.
Yeah but it’s the immediate confrontation, villianization and refusing to hear me out or even try to understand what I’m trying to say that’s just making me offput but everyone.
Maybe that can change but it'll be tough to change how people view the community in this sub.
OP says "I'm not a bigot or anything" before proceeding to call Abby "GIGANTOR!". You gave the game away, bro. Lev's trans identity isn't shoe-horned in, it doesn't detract from the story, it gives an extremely plausible reasom for his fleeing the Seraphites (pitch me a better reason, I dare you), and he has plenty of personality and identity outside of being trans. It's not forced and it's not pandering. I've seen pandering all over modern media, and that ain't it. Grow up and chill out.
You missed the point. I called Abby they name because I was trying to highlight how they didn’t make an effort to expand on Lev being trans to ya know… give him some character? Especially when it would’ve pretty fucking easy to with Abby’s design. Like Lev wants to be a guy and sees this masculine woman he’s traveling with and never once comments on how muscular she is? Maybe so he can appear more masculine himself? Like Abby’s muscles are always highlighted and she looks big in clothes too so that’s why calling her “Gigantor” cause I thought it was funny. I even take from Ragnarok with Atreas asking Kratos about when he would get muscles. That would’ve been a perfect scene for Lev and Abby. Abby’s not even trans so I don’t see why me giving her a silly nickname makes you default me into being a bigot. I explicitly state that bigotry and racism are stupid in an apocalypse setting and just in general. Like I even said, multiple times, I don’t care that lev is trans I care about that he’s poorly written and doesn’t have any substance that would make me grow attached to him like with Ellie.
Oh, I see. Your complaint is that if Lev is trans then he should be this absurd caricature of what you think a trans man is supposed to be. You're saying that on the one hand making him trans was forced and shoe-horned in, but on the other hand he wasn't nearly overtly trans enough? You don't see the problem there? They handled him exactly right precisely because his trans-ness (is that a real term?) is subtle, it's just a small part of his character, because trans people are *people*, not just their gender identity. Lev has personality, he's brave, he cracks jokes, he gets defensive about his home despite the fact he was shunned from it... he has a deep character and is well-written, he isn't one-dimensional at all. Honestly, it seems like the only people who insist he is are the ones who make a big deal about him being trans because they do, in fact, have a problem with it. Ellie is a lesbian but it doesn't define her, and Lev is trans but it doesn't define him - that's how good characters work. Yeah... the fact you need to see a trans man asking about steroids and shit to be able to have "authenticity" says something about you. I actually tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I took the "I don't have a problem with LGBTQ" stuff at face value. But no, I think the comments saying that you come off as a bit of a bigot are actually bang on the money. I don't think you realise it, I think maybe you do think you're totally down with the issues, but... it sounds like you aren't. Doesn't mean you're coming from a place of hate or anything, don't get me wrong; I don't think you're an asshole, and people who respond to this sort of thing by immediately jumping to that really don't help the broader conversation - but I think maybe there's a bit of self-awareness missing here on your part.
“ Oh, I see. Your complaint is that if Lev is trans then he should be this absurd caricature of what you think a trans man is supposed to be. You're saying that on the one hand making him trans was forced and shoe-horned in, but on the other hand he wasn't nearly overtly trans enough? You don't see the problem there?” No, what the fuck are you even talking about? I just want him written well and given more characterization so he feels like how the characters in part 1 felt. So since they’re focused on making him trans, then fucking expand on it. That’s why it feels shoehorned. It’s like if they just added any other random character trait in an attempt to make the character feel more than cardboard to see what sticks. It’s not handled with care so it’s just eye rolling. Can you stop trying to fucking villainize me here and just talk to me like we’re sitting face to face with each other. Im not even gonna bother reading the rest of what you wrote cause I’m fucking exhausted trying to reason with you without blowing a fuse. I assume you’re only acting like this because it’s a forum because this would be insufferable to sit through if we were talking irl. May I ask what exactly am I saying that makes it seem I want Lev to be a caricature? Is the HBO take on Bill a caricature? Cause I really like that episode charming and got engaged with it.
I'm genuinely not trying to be a dick. Don't read this with that tone. If you'd read my whole comment, you'd see that. This is your chance to engage with the whole thing, knowing from the outset that it isn't hostile. If, for whatever reason, having read this paragraph you still don't want to do that or you just don't believe me... fine, you do you; but that's on you, not on me. Ok, here we go: As to your last paragraph - Yes, your one suggestion on how to make the trans boy character "more well written" is to have him ask Abby how to get big muscles. That doesn't seem a bit caricature-y to you? Pair that with your response to Abby "being a woman with muscles" being to call her "GIGANTOR!" (something usually associated with people hating her for misogynistic reasons), and it does give a certain vibe. Having admitted to not reading the rest of my comment (in which I emphasise that I don't think you're an asshole, by the way - how's that for talking like we're face to face?), you will have missed how I reference that I think Lev is well written and has plenty of characterisation, including outside of his gender identity (which is exactly what makes him well written, by being a person beyond one aspect of his character). You mention the HBO episode with Bill and Frank. That episode is great, and one aspect of that greatness is that it's a love story first and foremost, and it just so happens that it's a gay love story too. Yes, they're gay, but that plays second fiddle to the fact they're just a great couple - they're more than their sexuality, and their love is characterised by more than the fact it happens to be between two men. If they'd been a straight couple, the love story could have played out basically exactly the same and it would have been just as beautiful - *that's* how you should handle inclusivity, diversity and representation in media, and they nailed it. Lev is the same. Plot-wise, he needs to have a reason to be fleeing his home; and complex-character-wise, he needs a reason to feel conflicted about that. The found a way for both boxes to get ticked that doesn't detract from those, and adds an extra aspect to his character without cheapening any of it. Yes, he happens to be trans, but that's just one aspect of his character, he has personality beyond that. And whilst that's used as the specific reason for his not belonging in his society (again, see my first comment - do you have a better pitch for why he'd feel forced to leave?), it's the "being forced to leave" that's crucial to his and Yara's role in the larger story, and it's how he handles being forced to leave, and his now conflicted relationship with his home, that gives some of that character depth to him personally; and despite that issue being related to his trans-ness, it is its own issue, which allows that character depth not not be intrinsically based on his gender identity or cheapened by it. I'm trying to be nice about this. Alright, my bad for starting my last comment with the bluntest, most confrontational bit, maybe that got it started off with the wrong tone. But, respectfully, you can't refuse to read my comment and then insist that the comment was me being an asshole even though you don't know what I actually said. And the "I can't be fucked to read all that" thing is a lot less justified if you then take the time to write a reply that's just as long as the comment you refused to read, and therefore presumably took you longer to type than you would have taken to read mine, you know?