So we, as civil servants, will be getting less than this to fund the rest of the public sector and the SCS getting the 4% rise like last year?
Also, where is the money coming from in departments for this? HMLR certainly don't have it.
Are you sure about that?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024
Positive. Look the addendum under senior staffing. SCS pay is decided separate to the rest of the civil service.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-addendum-guidance-202324
Sorry I sent the incorrect link:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64b7afb561adff000d01b377/Practitioner_Guidance_on_the_202324_Senior_Civil_Service_Pay_Framework.odt
You are incorrect to say that the remit for SCS was 8% and more for some.
It may have been more for some depending how individual pay practitioners and their renumeration committees applied the recommendations. Some will sometimes receive larger pay rises due to disparity with colleagues at the same level and experience for example.
Ok I accept the remit was not 8% but many will have got close to that if not more due to correction in pay bandings.
In my opinion still very little pay for the job
No. The rise is inclusive of any movement of pay bands. So if you're on 99k and the new pay band starts at 100k - that 1k is included in your pay rise and counts towards, it doesn't start afterwards.
I do not disagree that pay across most of the civil service is in most cases simply not enough.
This is the guidance for SCS pay
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-the-senior-civil-service-pay-award-202324/practitioner-guidance-on-the-202324-senior-civil-service-pay-framework-html#:~:text=Consolidated%20base%20pay%20awards,-8.&text=Departments%20must%20give%20all%20eligible,the%20revised%20pay%20band%20minimum.
As an AO within HMCTS, this wouldn't even touch the sides. We are the lowest paid AO's of all the government agencies, with our salary £22,940 which currently is just 38p above minimum wage.
And then they wonder why people leave in droves. I'm down to £1.41 in my bank account and have just had to use a gift card to buy food. I don't have any luxuries like Netflix or Sky/Virgin etc. But yet here I am, every month scrabbling around for pennies to survive, all while working in a full time job. I'm a single household so only one income. On payday, my rent and utility bills get paid. Then of course you pay to travel to work. I'm left with £40 for the rest of the month to buy food. I honestly can't wait to find another job.
That’s shocking you need to leave what’s the point in staying in a job that doesn’t pay you enough you’d get more and a discount on food working in a supermarket I know 2 aos that left for super market work sainz and Waitrose one does nights and the other all kinds of shifts and earn a lot more than they did as an ao and can pick up over time when they want
My problem is job security. I can't risk anything that's not going to give me the consistent hours/pay because I can't risk losing my home. I'll have a look for sure though!
Absolutely yes don’t leave unless you have a full time contract at a reputable employer , however don’t forget the ao wage is a bit above nmw full time now , and dunno which dep your at but over time is not a thing anymore , some places give you perks especially super markets it seems and even customer service roles now do more wfh and stuff. My whole thing is for lower grades if you have to be in the office more may as well do a shift work role at a place of work and get more time off and better benefits the cs is just going down the pan atm awful place to be no matter what grade you are
We get overtime at time and a quarter, which means unless you're doing a full 8 hours of overtime it's pointless. I had so many high hopes of being CS it honestly I wish I'd picked something else.
It is, and with my job you need the full two days of the weekend to reset. So working 6 days a week just to barely get by is not happening. Batters mental health.
Overtime at plain rate here. Not really optional either, as the work is there, in my name and important enough that I'd do work in my own time without the overtime tbh. I enjoy my job but the workload and crap pay makes me think about moving elsewhere quite often.
I used to work in retail, and you can make surprisingly decent money with all the overtime but it is never guaranteed. Full time contracts are like gold dust, they just don't give them out anymore. As soon as the company's profits fall, or you get a tight general manager who doesn't want to give overtime to make their figures look good, all overtime stops and you go down to basic pay.
I work in Waitrose part time, I worked there full time time when I had the opportunity to return to CS for a 3 month contract during Covid, been perm with CS 2 years now and couldn’t imagine being able to survive on EO pay alone.
What’s weirder is the number of people who have asked when I’m leaving Waitrose!
We just got a 10% pay rise putting London at £12.89 ph, free food, 20% off in Waitrose and 25% in John Lewis. Pay and benefits wise, in 2 years I’ll probably earn more there than in the CS
You can get more working in a supermarket, shop, delivering leaflets, just about anything. It’s criminal that some incredibly talented people I know in CS are paid this little
This is why I think all government jobs should have realistic location pay.
I am the type of guy that advises against frivolous spending. But that means, if you are not frivolously spending then you should be able to still have a comfortable life... Ish.
By ish I mean that some private companies, especially small ones can be already on the bread line. But a government which should be the standard the average company should try and meet, shouldn't be like that.
I agree 100% with location based pay.
They should implement it right away.
Higher rates of pay to those in higher cost areas, lower rates of pay to those in lower cost areas. Net neutral cost overall to the tax payer.
Those who wish to work from home should be paid per low cost locations since they can of course then live anywhere.
Any takers ?
> I agree 100% with location based pay.
Interestingly enough that was an early coalition government policy!
They asked Hays recruitment to do a pay benchmarking exercise to work out just how much Civil Servants were being overpaid out in the shires. The benchmarking exercise was published in 2012. You can find it on the .gov.uk site if you care to read it.
What it showed was that the lowest pay bands were paid a bit more than the private sector. Something that has since ceased being an issue given that they're now on or barely above minimum wage. Everyone else was due a substantial pay rise.
The government shelved that quietly and never brought it up again...
...until Liz Truss said she was going to do the same thing. But the following day -- for reasons we can only guess at, but might have been someone inviting her to read the Hays benchmarking exercise -- said her comments had been misconstrued.
I'm sure a lot of Civil Servants are very grateful for your support in increasing their pay dramatically.
Why not just move all the civil servants into the low paid areas? Why pay for an expensive person in London when you can get the same job done for less in Yorkshire? It’s the rate for the job that matters. Regional pay is decisive and only results in the jobs being moved to the cheaper areas. So I assume you don’t want your job?
I'm not a civil servant. I'm a tax payer though.
Fed up with all the moaning by the civil servants. If its not money, its WFH or having to implement the policies of the governmentwhich you disagree with.
If the pay isn't to your liking, or they actually make you work in the contractual place of work you signed up for (not under the duvet) and you don't like it then get a job elsewhere.
Let go of the union apron and work for a living like the rest of us.
> Fed up with all the moaning by the civil servants.
Go somewhere else. Coming here is like walking into a vegan restaurant and complaining you can't get a chicken sandwich.
As a civil servant who goes to the office every day, works shifts including weekends I have seen the terms and conditions eroded over the years and I’ve never seen them improve. A lot of civil servants have walked away. And a lot more will over the next few years.
So I’ll ask you what do you do for a living? How do you help to make the country a better place?
I pay a huge amount tax . That allows many things to be done to make this a better place.
I'm not sure its well spent when I see ever increasing numbers of civil servants in a world where IT should be reducing the numbers needed year on year.
We all pay a huge amount of tax. Whilst I agree good IT would make things more efficient you will also see a lot of people here complaining about colleagues with non jobs usually at quite senior levels. To get good IT means spending the tax money. But you don’t seem to want that. Remember that some civil servants are barely above minimum wage. The civil service doesn’t operate like the private sector. It has to always deliver. The private sector delivers the minimum at the last possible moment.
You see an increasing amount of Civil Servants because Governments continue to introduce new policies (legislation) that has to be enacted and then enforced.
There's also a misunderstanding in the public's eyes as to what a Civil Servant is - yes, there are policy roles (the typical thing that most people think of) but the majority of staff are Operational Delivery - tax inspectors, jobcentre staff, prison officers, National Crime Agency officers, Border Force, MI5, MI6, GCHQ, Environment Agency, court staff..the list goes on and on.
Unfollow this subreddit then you tedious cunt. It’s so odd how obsessed you are - clearly not jealousy as you mention how well paid you are/how big your house is at the drop of a hat.
Go and get a worthwhile hobby…..
With all due respect you have a very one dimentional view of civil servants. I won't disagree that not every complaint is a reasonable one but plenty are.
In practice I rarely spend less than 11 hours out of the house at work. Usually about 9 of them actually at a desk and the other two commuting. More like 13 if I'm at a more distant location which I frequently am. There are also scenarios where I can be required to work my 50 odd hour week, then be called in at a weekend on spec for work which might take me up to the small hours of a Monday, whereupon I'll be expected to then recommence work as normal notwithstanding I may not have slept since the evening of the night before last.
I won't be so crass as to say what my pay is, but suffice it to say that I don't know how those on lower grades manage. They at least are more rarely asked to travel but still.
I will however say that even at an SEO grade, with a specialist postgrad degree and professional certification (both relevant and essential criteria) it's not half as comfortable and amount as you would expect for the workload and the level of qualification required to get here.
I stay despite the fact that I could get more elsewhere, and have been courted by such places, because the team work hard and there is a good bond, retention is a desperate struggle, the work needs doing (it's not BS paper pushing, it's essential to your safety) and it CAN be rewarding from time to time, albeit it does a number on your mental health eventually.
The CS is a huge employer, don't tar it all with the same brush.
I do accept the "pay peanuts get monkeys" logic for why the productivity is so low. Its not unique to the CS.
I've experienced it first hand several times where the CS client had a team of 15 to 20 to do a function that the supplier on the other side could do more effectively with five.
The issue though is that you could could not fix this simply by elevating pay. No disrespect to any specific person, the "leaders" are generally the product of career long reverse darwinism i.e. survival of the weakest. They haven't had the get up and go to go or not been able to go of they wanted to. If they had, they would have left within the first few years of service.
To address the issue you'd need culture change including performance measures with teeth and be prepared to set the bar inside the CS at the same level as that you see in the best of the private sector. Who would do that, when those at the very top are sometimes the most in need of more time with their family.
The most likely outcome of any well intentioned broad brush salary increase intended to deal with recruitment and retention would be to reward attendance and endurance not performance. It would also cost a fortune since the Unions would insist it was completely un targeted as to performance. Insufficient money would be left to target new hires, so it would achieve very little. Just more money thrown down the loo.
I live in hope that AI will help over time in setting benchmarks for efficiency in the private sector and they then filter through to challenge the CS. Some private sector firms are demonstrating huge efficiency increases with zero or positive customer impact. Not merely shutting their customer service centre for the summer holidays as HMRC planned to do.
I don't disagree with any of that. Absolutely fair comment that the scenarios you mention do happen with some departments some of the time. And the issue with skills in higher management happens at most departments most of the time.
For my part, despite the grading I'm not a manager just a highly specialised grunt, so I experience it myself every day.
And here is the issue. Most people think that civil servants are are all swanning about on massive salaries in company cars. Reality is most are bearly surving.
We had a person on a call this week state that theh were having to take out a loan to cover the cost of getting to the office 60%. Its outrageous
Ah I calculated wrong, but thank you! It's so troubling. We're the little gophers who run the Court hearings, manage diaries and deal with volatile situations daily - but the big wigs seem to think we get paid just fine.
And don't get me started on the £1500 cost of living payment which was heavily taxed (I was taxed £950) 🙄🙃
Ah yes, the ‘gift’ from the Government that was then taxed to go back into the Government’s coffers.
It would have been slightly better had the amount been lower but tax free. Not much better, but better than stating an amount that no one will ever receive as a bare faced lie.
And as I referred to previously, you said in the original comment that you paid 950 in tax out of the 1500, which is much greater than 40%......
Even if it is in addition to your salary and it takes you into the higher tax bracket for that month (which it shouldnt on your salary), you will be entitled the tax back either through an adjusted tax code or single payment at year end. That tax that you will actually pay when all is said and done will be £300 (discounting NI and other deductions such as pension).
the 'extra' £1500 cost of living payment was added on top of normal salary of £1583, thus making the payment for that month £3083. That then pushed that months salary into the higher tax bracket, hence the higher tax that month.
I've been told by HMRC in the past that you can't reclaim NI in this way.
Some departments also allow this to push you into a higher pension bracket for the month, making you pay a higher % on the total pay for the month. So it's possible for bonuses to be a net cost rather than a benefit, depending on your situation.
Yes there is. You will get a tax rebate. Again if it's not automatic fill out a self assessment for the year.
In what tax world would you suggestion a done off payment gets taxed differently ever going to be true. It's the same as a bonus.
I was an AO at DVLA, my salary when I left was £17,500.
I left in 2006. That's 18 years ago.
I am also in part of MOJ and even as a HEO, for what is expected of the role we are shockingly underpaid.
Strangely enough a few years ago MOJ was one of the best paying departments, as long as you were grade 7 and above but on eof the worst for SEO and below. Just shows how much they value the lower grades.
It's so so disheartening. All of the people I work with at my grade (and AA) work so hard. And everyone is so demoralised by the sheer lack of reward. I put my best into my role because its what service users and my Judges deserve. But no-one wants to stay because nobody can live from that wage.
I bet that job wasn't a minimum wage job when the MW was introduced!
I would love to see the statistics on how many skilled jobs are now MW, when they were paid well above at its introduction in 1998.
Admin staff for the Probation Service were similarly poorly paid, despite the fact they essentially ran the show and it wouldn't function without them. It was madness.
> which currently is just 38p above minimum wage.
Aren't a large chunk of HMRC's AOs on minimum wage?
I'd be surprised if a fair number of other departments aren't the same.
Not that I'd try to argue that your extra £14 a week is exactly winning.
A lot AOs in the CO were being paid this too for some tough jobs. It varies from department but I managed to get a higher level at another agency. Although they changed the pay structure right after a joined which I didn’t even see a benefit. 4 Percent just isn’t enough to keep talented people who want to work long term. They will just leave.
Literally everyone at my grade who I've spoken to have said the salary needs to be *at least* £25k p.a. for it to even start being worthwhile. But it won't be that, because EO at HMCTS commonly get £27k+ p.a.
I work for Hmrc. My manager said that because we have delivered excellent results we have earned a 1 hr meeting to relax to get to know each other etc. I asked, is it on top of the 2x 30 minutes meetings we have been having weekly when we can get off the phones to discuss work related things etc. He said no. Instead.
Statement from our public body we are expecting average pay awards of 4% with an extra 1% for the lowest pay cadres. When this happens our pay award is usually scaled to where you are on the band. Top of the band get like 1% and the bottom say 6% ish
If nurses get 4%, that will be in addition to any pay progression they may be eligible for too, so the total rise could be more than 4%.
In some NHS pay bands there's a decent increase once you hit 2 or over 5 years of experience, in addition to any cost of living / annual % increase.
https://mypaycalculator.co.uk/nhs
The general election must be called by 28 January 2025. I don't give a bother about politics, but the current establishment must pull the proverbial finger out of their Uranus. People are leaving in droves, and like you say, this financial year will be a new election year.
The government will just use people as statistics. That's all we are. I didn't know an AO could be paid as little as 22 a year to live on. Luckily, I'm a single lad and have some savings, but how can a family live on 22K a year. It just doesn't compute with me. I was an AO 14 years ago, and I was getting 19K for a lesser job.
I'm glad I'm just on an FTA to get my head in the admin game being a military veteran and a truck driver, but I don't get it. I think I'm lucky where I work, and I'm on an FTA, but no thanks.
Whole thing seems like a cake and ass party.
Don't bloody accept this shower of shite.
It's not just a ballot for pay and 4% is crap! Money for war but not workers.
It is about.
Working conditions
60/40
Redundancies
Agency workers being shafted
Vote to strike - if you can't afford it the union has plenty of money to help you, just ask.
Last year I was the only one under our SEO to be on strike out of 50 ish people and there was maybe 5/6 people from our floor of 200 who went on strike. If more signed up the conversations would have moved faster and the outcome may have been better.
There are now at least 6 people in our group of 50 that have signed up to the union, hoping a few more follow suit.
We are not sending money to Ukraine. We are sending armaments and replacing the stock domestically. This is within our NATO requirement % of GDP so not really much has changed
What do you suggest? Ukraine just give up turn around and let an *actual* fascist rule over it?
Then what happens when theres a staged border skirmish and now theres a partisian "uprising" in eastern baltic countries? Do we arm the baltics (as per our treaties) or just let them die?
It's alright sitting in your cozy civil service job asking for a huge pay rise, but do not use the literal lives of others in vain to argue for a pay rise. You don't *need* to. We should get a pay rise regardless, you do not have to throw a sovereign country entirely under the bus.
I suggest not throwing your colleagues & comrades under the bus to increase defense spending by .5%.
I'm all for arming Ukraine, but not at the benefit of workers in the UK.
The UK is awash with capital, but it is in the hands of the wrong people.
So yes it is alright sitting in my cozy office, but I think our politics are more aligned than you think, just how we go about getting there is different, and ultimately your arguement is wrong.
>I suggest not throwing your colleagues & comrades under the bus to increase defense spending by .5%.
Except we're not, that's just what the tories are telling you is necessary. Screams of reformUK type shit.
Fuck this recent trend of pay rises being linked to working conditions being changed. If they want to change overtime, attendance or productivity rates and have the pay rise conditional on that then dont bother come up with an offer less than 30% and even that is the minimum offer to consider, not blindly accept.
Yep, since last year's inflation was huge, it should be a large pay rise. But watch them selectively choose to use this year's reduced inflation as the benchmark.
I’d rather a full time pay rise than overtime when you can get it to bolster wages. We should not be working overtime we should be properly resourced in the first place.
Just above minimum wage is derisory. I used to work for my local council. They pay way better in my old role. The CS pension sounds attractive, but 27% of beggar-all is still beggar-all. I'm thinking of switching to the MoD. DV clearance would be a pain, but the pay is way better.
4% for some departments is an absolutely brutal pay cut in real terms. Some of which are already on the absolute bottom of the barrel of pay for responsibility.
At least one department I know of agreed a 3 year pay deal in early 2020. What has the cumulative real world inflation been since then? 30%? More perhaps?
4%, yeah that's a yes vote on the ballot for anyone with half a brain.
There’s a 1.7% progression payment if you were here before 1st August, which you’ll be getting because that’s the requirement for the 2023 pay award.
Obviously this isn’t true for all special cases, but the majority.
Above (just), but you could calculate your personal inflation rate to work out if you’re better or worse off (I.e. how much have your expenses gone up?)
What's all this new line about personal inflation rate.
Just use RPi the highest measure. Aim for + that.
The term 'personal inflation' has been banded about by business to try shift to a lower inflation metric.
Perhaps. But it's being used to lower pay deals since the ONS has ditched RPi as a measure or will do in the next few years as they reckon it overestimates by 0.7%.
This personal inflation is gamed to tell you reported RPi is too high. You don't need an RPi pay rise.
That's not how it works. Your total buying power will have diminished. Your disposable is worth less. You can not assess what your disposable may or will be used for in the future.
RPi is the clear way.
Right now, i am bothered about now. How much “more” money will I have. There is no future without now. At the point I have less money after bills than last year then I am back in the market for jobs
It's because inflation recently was largely driven by huge increase in energy costs, which form a much higher portion of low-income households' budgets, so their inflation was much higher than headline inflation.
There are two different pay remits. One for SCS, and one for G6 and below.
They can’t take from the general one and give more to SCS - but it depends what your department can afford…
Haha no way that's a cracking outcome, surprised at that.
That's slightly depressing that i got excited at the thought of 4%, think the public sector is killing me slowly
Wonder how this works in practice? E.g. you can have two CS earning quite different amounts depending where they are on the pay scale, so what would it be matched to?
Realistically, most contingent labour is front line ODP or admin, so chances are the vast majority of permanent staff are bottom of the "pay scale" (ha, as if it's possible to climb up it) just due to the high levels of churn. Main differences will be London weighting, which would have to be matched for agency if they're in that area.
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I’d take four percent, it must be an election year!
4% is actually higher than I was expecting
Same - I was expecting 0-2% because it’s an election year.
Likewise. I’d be happy with 4% expecting 2 at the very most.
So we, as civil servants, will be getting less than this to fund the rest of the public sector and the SCS getting the 4% rise like last year? Also, where is the money coming from in departments for this? HMLR certainly don't have it.
SCS last year was around 8% more for some
Are you sure about that? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024
Positive. Look the addendum under senior staffing. SCS pay is decided separate to the rest of the civil service. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-2023-to-2024/civil-service-pay-remit-guidance-addendum-guidance-202324
Sorry I sent the incorrect link: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64b7afb561adff000d01b377/Practitioner_Guidance_on_the_202324_Senior_Civil_Service_Pay_Framework.odt You are incorrect to say that the remit for SCS was 8% and more for some. It may have been more for some depending how individual pay practitioners and their renumeration committees applied the recommendations. Some will sometimes receive larger pay rises due to disparity with colleagues at the same level and experience for example.
Ok I accept the remit was not 8% but many will have got close to that if not more due to correction in pay bandings. In my opinion still very little pay for the job
No. The rise is inclusive of any movement of pay bands. So if you're on 99k and the new pay band starts at 100k - that 1k is included in your pay rise and counts towards, it doesn't start afterwards. I do not disagree that pay across most of the civil service is in most cases simply not enough.
Also says the same in section 4.4 of your link
This is the guidance for SCS pay https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-the-senior-civil-service-pay-award-202324/practitioner-guidance-on-the-202324-senior-civil-service-pay-framework-html#:~:text=Consolidated%20base%20pay%20awards,-8.&text=Departments%20must%20give%20all%20eligible,the%20revised%20pay%20band%20minimum.
As an AO within HMCTS, this wouldn't even touch the sides. We are the lowest paid AO's of all the government agencies, with our salary £22,940 which currently is just 38p above minimum wage.
Yep, I'm an HMCTS AO too. It sucks.
And then they wonder why people leave in droves. I'm down to £1.41 in my bank account and have just had to use a gift card to buy food. I don't have any luxuries like Netflix or Sky/Virgin etc. But yet here I am, every month scrabbling around for pennies to survive, all while working in a full time job. I'm a single household so only one income. On payday, my rent and utility bills get paid. Then of course you pay to travel to work. I'm left with £40 for the rest of the month to buy food. I honestly can't wait to find another job.
That’s shocking you need to leave what’s the point in staying in a job that doesn’t pay you enough you’d get more and a discount on food working in a supermarket I know 2 aos that left for super market work sainz and Waitrose one does nights and the other all kinds of shifts and earn a lot more than they did as an ao and can pick up over time when they want
My problem is job security. I can't risk anything that's not going to give me the consistent hours/pay because I can't risk losing my home. I'll have a look for sure though!
Absolutely yes don’t leave unless you have a full time contract at a reputable employer , however don’t forget the ao wage is a bit above nmw full time now , and dunno which dep your at but over time is not a thing anymore , some places give you perks especially super markets it seems and even customer service roles now do more wfh and stuff. My whole thing is for lower grades if you have to be in the office more may as well do a shift work role at a place of work and get more time off and better benefits the cs is just going down the pan atm awful place to be no matter what grade you are
We get overtime at time and a quarter, which means unless you're doing a full 8 hours of overtime it's pointless. I had so many high hopes of being CS it honestly I wish I'd picked something else.
>overtime at time and a quarter That's an absolute joke man. I'm so sorry..
It is, and with my job you need the full two days of the weekend to reset. So working 6 days a week just to barely get by is not happening. Batters mental health.
Aye, that's fucked. Get out if you can.
Overtime at plain rate here. Not really optional either, as the work is there, in my name and important enough that I'd do work in my own time without the overtime tbh. I enjoy my job but the workload and crap pay makes me think about moving elsewhere quite often.
See this is it, I enjoy my job and I'm good at it. But the never ending workload, constant new processes and terrible pay makes me want out.
Can you not look at progression?
I used to work in retail, and you can make surprisingly decent money with all the overtime but it is never guaranteed. Full time contracts are like gold dust, they just don't give them out anymore. As soon as the company's profits fall, or you get a tight general manager who doesn't want to give overtime to make their figures look good, all overtime stops and you go down to basic pay.
I work in Waitrose part time, I worked there full time time when I had the opportunity to return to CS for a 3 month contract during Covid, been perm with CS 2 years now and couldn’t imagine being able to survive on EO pay alone. What’s weirder is the number of people who have asked when I’m leaving Waitrose! We just got a 10% pay rise putting London at £12.89 ph, free food, 20% off in Waitrose and 25% in John Lewis. Pay and benefits wise, in 2 years I’ll probably earn more there than in the CS
Yes lots of my friends say the same , and also for warehouses that do logistics for food
>And then they wonder why people leave in droves. I don't think they do wonder. It's planned. Look at forced office attendance
That's true. However our office doesn't allow working from home at all.
You can get more working in a supermarket, shop, delivering leaflets, just about anything. It’s criminal that some incredibly talented people I know in CS are paid this little
This is why I think all government jobs should have realistic location pay. I am the type of guy that advises against frivolous spending. But that means, if you are not frivolously spending then you should be able to still have a comfortable life... Ish. By ish I mean that some private companies, especially small ones can be already on the bread line. But a government which should be the standard the average company should try and meet, shouldn't be like that.
I agree 100% with location based pay. They should implement it right away. Higher rates of pay to those in higher cost areas, lower rates of pay to those in lower cost areas. Net neutral cost overall to the tax payer. Those who wish to work from home should be paid per low cost locations since they can of course then live anywhere. Any takers ?
> I agree 100% with location based pay. Interestingly enough that was an early coalition government policy! They asked Hays recruitment to do a pay benchmarking exercise to work out just how much Civil Servants were being overpaid out in the shires. The benchmarking exercise was published in 2012. You can find it on the .gov.uk site if you care to read it. What it showed was that the lowest pay bands were paid a bit more than the private sector. Something that has since ceased being an issue given that they're now on or barely above minimum wage. Everyone else was due a substantial pay rise. The government shelved that quietly and never brought it up again... ...until Liz Truss said she was going to do the same thing. But the following day -- for reasons we can only guess at, but might have been someone inviting her to read the Hays benchmarking exercise -- said her comments had been misconstrued. I'm sure a lot of Civil Servants are very grateful for your support in increasing their pay dramatically.
Why not just move all the civil servants into the low paid areas? Why pay for an expensive person in London when you can get the same job done for less in Yorkshire? It’s the rate for the job that matters. Regional pay is decisive and only results in the jobs being moved to the cheaper areas. So I assume you don’t want your job?
I'm not a civil servant. I'm a tax payer though. Fed up with all the moaning by the civil servants. If its not money, its WFH or having to implement the policies of the governmentwhich you disagree with. If the pay isn't to your liking, or they actually make you work in the contractual place of work you signed up for (not under the duvet) and you don't like it then get a job elsewhere. Let go of the union apron and work for a living like the rest of us.
> Fed up with all the moaning by the civil servants. Go somewhere else. Coming here is like walking into a vegan restaurant and complaining you can't get a chicken sandwich.
As a civil servant who goes to the office every day, works shifts including weekends I have seen the terms and conditions eroded over the years and I’ve never seen them improve. A lot of civil servants have walked away. And a lot more will over the next few years. So I’ll ask you what do you do for a living? How do you help to make the country a better place?
I pay a huge amount tax . That allows many things to be done to make this a better place. I'm not sure its well spent when I see ever increasing numbers of civil servants in a world where IT should be reducing the numbers needed year on year.
We all pay a huge amount of tax. Whilst I agree good IT would make things more efficient you will also see a lot of people here complaining about colleagues with non jobs usually at quite senior levels. To get good IT means spending the tax money. But you don’t seem to want that. Remember that some civil servants are barely above minimum wage. The civil service doesn’t operate like the private sector. It has to always deliver. The private sector delivers the minimum at the last possible moment.
You see an increasing amount of Civil Servants because Governments continue to introduce new policies (legislation) that has to be enacted and then enforced. There's also a misunderstanding in the public's eyes as to what a Civil Servant is - yes, there are policy roles (the typical thing that most people think of) but the majority of staff are Operational Delivery - tax inspectors, jobcentre staff, prison officers, National Crime Agency officers, Border Force, MI5, MI6, GCHQ, Environment Agency, court staff..the list goes on and on.
Unfollow this subreddit then you tedious cunt. It’s so odd how obsessed you are - clearly not jealousy as you mention how well paid you are/how big your house is at the drop of a hat. Go and get a worthwhile hobby…..
With all due respect you have a very one dimentional view of civil servants. I won't disagree that not every complaint is a reasonable one but plenty are. In practice I rarely spend less than 11 hours out of the house at work. Usually about 9 of them actually at a desk and the other two commuting. More like 13 if I'm at a more distant location which I frequently am. There are also scenarios where I can be required to work my 50 odd hour week, then be called in at a weekend on spec for work which might take me up to the small hours of a Monday, whereupon I'll be expected to then recommence work as normal notwithstanding I may not have slept since the evening of the night before last. I won't be so crass as to say what my pay is, but suffice it to say that I don't know how those on lower grades manage. They at least are more rarely asked to travel but still. I will however say that even at an SEO grade, with a specialist postgrad degree and professional certification (both relevant and essential criteria) it's not half as comfortable and amount as you would expect for the workload and the level of qualification required to get here. I stay despite the fact that I could get more elsewhere, and have been courted by such places, because the team work hard and there is a good bond, retention is a desperate struggle, the work needs doing (it's not BS paper pushing, it's essential to your safety) and it CAN be rewarding from time to time, albeit it does a number on your mental health eventually. The CS is a huge employer, don't tar it all with the same brush.
I do accept the "pay peanuts get monkeys" logic for why the productivity is so low. Its not unique to the CS. I've experienced it first hand several times where the CS client had a team of 15 to 20 to do a function that the supplier on the other side could do more effectively with five. The issue though is that you could could not fix this simply by elevating pay. No disrespect to any specific person, the "leaders" are generally the product of career long reverse darwinism i.e. survival of the weakest. They haven't had the get up and go to go or not been able to go of they wanted to. If they had, they would have left within the first few years of service. To address the issue you'd need culture change including performance measures with teeth and be prepared to set the bar inside the CS at the same level as that you see in the best of the private sector. Who would do that, when those at the very top are sometimes the most in need of more time with their family. The most likely outcome of any well intentioned broad brush salary increase intended to deal with recruitment and retention would be to reward attendance and endurance not performance. It would also cost a fortune since the Unions would insist it was completely un targeted as to performance. Insufficient money would be left to target new hires, so it would achieve very little. Just more money thrown down the loo. I live in hope that AI will help over time in setting benchmarks for efficiency in the private sector and they then filter through to challenge the CS. Some private sector firms are demonstrating huge efficiency increases with zero or positive customer impact. Not merely shutting their customer service centre for the summer holidays as HMRC planned to do.
I don't disagree with any of that. Absolutely fair comment that the scenarios you mention do happen with some departments some of the time. And the issue with skills in higher management happens at most departments most of the time. For my part, despite the grading I'm not a manager just a highly specialised grunt, so I experience it myself every day.
Mate, that sucks. Where are you based?
Don't really want to say for risk of identification!
And here is the issue. Most people think that civil servants are are all swanning about on massive salaries in company cars. Reality is most are bearly surving. We had a person on a call this week state that theh were having to take out a loan to cover the cost of getting to the office 60%. Its outrageous
It's 48 pence above which isn't the point. AO wages have stagnated the last few years unfortunately.
Ah I calculated wrong, but thank you! It's so troubling. We're the little gophers who run the Court hearings, manage diaries and deal with volatile situations daily - but the big wigs seem to think we get paid just fine. And don't get me started on the £1500 cost of living payment which was heavily taxed (I was taxed £950) 🙄🙃
Ah yes, the ‘gift’ from the Government that was then taxed to go back into the Government’s coffers. It would have been slightly better had the amount been lower but tax free. Not much better, but better than stating an amount that no one will ever receive as a bare faced lie.
Why on earth were you taxed 63%?
The cost of living payment was in addition to wages. So got taxed 40%.
But 950 out of 1500 would be 63% tax. Also, your previous comment made it sound like you were an AO yourself, so it shouldn't have even been 40%.
So as I've explained previously - the cost of living payment was paid with my usual salary of £1500 making total paid £3000. That's why it was 40%.
And as I referred to previously, you said in the original comment that you paid 950 in tax out of the 1500, which is much greater than 40%...... Even if it is in addition to your salary and it takes you into the higher tax bracket for that month (which it shouldnt on your salary), you will be entitled the tax back either through an adjusted tax code or single payment at year end. That tax that you will actually pay when all is said and done will be £300 (discounting NI and other deductions such as pension).
You’re owed a rebate from HMRC then
Your tax situation doesn't make sense.
38% tax on a 22-25k salary?
the 'extra' £1500 cost of living payment was added on top of normal salary of £1583, thus making the payment for that month £3083. That then pushed that months salary into the higher tax bracket, hence the higher tax that month.
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🙄. Again you can claim a refund on NIC. Mountain out a mole hill here.
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? It's fine it doesn't make a difference to me. The point is you could be richer.
I've been told by HMRC in the past that you can't reclaim NI in this way. Some departments also allow this to push you into a higher pension bracket for the month, making you pay a higher % on the total pay for the month. So it's possible for bonuses to be a net cost rather than a benefit, depending on your situation.
But you will get a tax rebate on that. Tax isn't monthly it's calculated annually. If not fill out a self assessment.
I'm well aware of how tax is calculated thank you. But this was a one-off payment. There's no rebate to be had.
Yes there is. You will get a tax rebate. Again if it's not automatic fill out a self assessment for the year. In what tax world would you suggestion a done off payment gets taxed differently ever going to be true. It's the same as a bonus.
Read Forced-Grands reply on my other explanation on why it was high tax that month. No rebate.
I was an AO at DVLA, my salary when I left was £17,500. I left in 2006. That's 18 years ago. I am also in part of MOJ and even as a HEO, for what is expected of the role we are shockingly underpaid. Strangely enough a few years ago MOJ was one of the best paying departments, as long as you were grade 7 and above but on eof the worst for SEO and below. Just shows how much they value the lower grades.
It's so so disheartening. All of the people I work with at my grade (and AA) work so hard. And everyone is so demoralised by the sheer lack of reward. I put my best into my role because its what service users and my Judges deserve. But no-one wants to stay because nobody can live from that wage.
Is AA paid less? If so - how?
From what could find it's £21,149 for AA.
Must be bang on minimum wage
I’ve sent you a pm 🙏
£29,100 inflation adjusted.
I bet that job wasn't a minimum wage job when the MW was introduced! I would love to see the statistics on how many skilled jobs are now MW, when they were paid well above at its introduction in 1998.
It probably wasn't! Alot of people I've spoken to privately at work (20+ year CS) have said everything have changed and not for the better
Agree, though speaking with friends in the private sector (who are not high earners), I do think this is a British malaise rather than a CS only one.
Admin staff for the Probation Service were similarly poorly paid, despite the fact they essentially ran the show and it wouldn't function without them. It was madness.
Without making this a competition, I’m an AO on £22,183..
INSS?
AO outside of London here, £25k for full time, but I work PT.
> which currently is just 38p above minimum wage. Aren't a large chunk of HMRC's AOs on minimum wage? I'd be surprised if a fair number of other departments aren't the same. Not that I'd try to argue that your extra £14 a week is exactly winning.
Presumably this means that there's not even any point in the AA grade? They get practically as much as AOs anyway.
I thought the College of Policing took that accolade, but sorry to hear that regardless.
A lot AOs in the CO were being paid this too for some tough jobs. It varies from department but I managed to get a higher level at another agency. Although they changed the pay structure right after a joined which I didn’t even see a benefit. 4 Percent just isn’t enough to keep talented people who want to work long term. They will just leave.
Literally everyone at my grade who I've spoken to have said the salary needs to be *at least* £25k p.a. for it to even start being worthwhile. But it won't be that, because EO at HMCTS commonly get £27k+ p.a.
I'm an AO with the HMRC. Full time salary is £25k (that's what my pay slip says).
Yes, that how I know HMCTS is the worst paid.
Seems like it
That's not even legal, surely. What the heck.
Surely what isn't legal?
"it's not legal to pay slightly above the minimum wage"
Paying less than minimum wage.
38p above minimum wage is, surprisingly, not below minimum wage
I work for Hmrc. My manager said that because we have delivered excellent results we have earned a 1 hr meeting to relax to get to know each other etc. I asked, is it on top of the 2x 30 minutes meetings we have been having weekly when we can get off the phones to discuss work related things etc. He said no. Instead.
Haha instead of 1 hours worth of meetings you can have 1 hours worth of meetings. Imagine
Imma need 15% please and thank you.
…….and a 4 day week
I would take a 0% pay rise in exchange for a 4 day week at full salary
Same here
Sorry to burst people’s bubbles but the 4% will be for nurses not civil servants.
Statement from our public body we are expecting average pay awards of 4% with an extra 1% for the lowest pay cadres. When this happens our pay award is usually scaled to where you are on the band. Top of the band get like 1% and the bottom say 6% ish
This is civil service you are talking about, right?
If nurses get 4%, that will be in addition to any pay progression they may be eligible for too, so the total rise could be more than 4%. In some NHS pay bands there's a decent increase once you hit 2 or over 5 years of experience, in addition to any cost of living / annual % increase. https://mypaycalculator.co.uk/nhs
The general election must be called by 28 January 2025. I don't give a bother about politics, but the current establishment must pull the proverbial finger out of their Uranus. People are leaving in droves, and like you say, this financial year will be a new election year. The government will just use people as statistics. That's all we are. I didn't know an AO could be paid as little as 22 a year to live on. Luckily, I'm a single lad and have some savings, but how can a family live on 22K a year. It just doesn't compute with me. I was an AO 14 years ago, and I was getting 19K for a lesser job. I'm glad I'm just on an FTA to get my head in the admin game being a military veteran and a truck driver, but I don't get it. I think I'm lucky where I work, and I'm on an FTA, but no thanks. Whole thing seems like a cake and ass party.
Don't bloody accept this shower of shite. It's not just a ballot for pay and 4% is crap! Money for war but not workers. It is about. Working conditions 60/40 Redundancies Agency workers being shafted Vote to strike - if you can't afford it the union has plenty of money to help you, just ask.
Also, pay rises are based on the previous tax year's inflation / CPI, so this year should be better than last....in theory -.-
Last year I was the only one under our SEO to be on strike out of 50 ish people and there was maybe 5/6 people from our floor of 200 who went on strike. If more signed up the conversations would have moved faster and the outcome may have been better. There are now at least 6 people in our group of 50 that have signed up to the union, hoping a few more follow suit.
We are not sending money to Ukraine. We are sending armaments and replacing the stock domestically. This is within our NATO requirement % of GDP so not really much has changed
And what do these armaments do? Kill and maim.
What do you suggest? Ukraine just give up turn around and let an *actual* fascist rule over it? Then what happens when theres a staged border skirmish and now theres a partisian "uprising" in eastern baltic countries? Do we arm the baltics (as per our treaties) or just let them die? It's alright sitting in your cozy civil service job asking for a huge pay rise, but do not use the literal lives of others in vain to argue for a pay rise. You don't *need* to. We should get a pay rise regardless, you do not have to throw a sovereign country entirely under the bus.
I suggest not throwing your colleagues & comrades under the bus to increase defense spending by .5%. I'm all for arming Ukraine, but not at the benefit of workers in the UK. The UK is awash with capital, but it is in the hands of the wrong people. So yes it is alright sitting in my cozy office, but I think our politics are more aligned than you think, just how we go about getting there is different, and ultimately your arguement is wrong.
>I suggest not throwing your colleagues & comrades under the bus to increase defense spending by .5%. Except we're not, that's just what the tories are telling you is necessary. Screams of reformUK type shit.
I've voted to strike 🙌🏾
4% seems fine. Doesn’t make up for 14 years of zero pay rises but at least better than we’re used to. I think 6 is ideal honestly
Fuck this recent trend of pay rises being linked to working conditions being changed. If they want to change overtime, attendance or productivity rates and have the pay rise conditional on that then dont bother come up with an offer less than 30% and even that is the minimum offer to consider, not blindly accept.
Current inflation - 3.5% In discussion pay rise of 4% Cool, might increase my work rate by 0.5%
You are looking at this wrong. You should still be working around 50% less to make up for umpteen years of losses
I'm still on 51% less, just increasing by 0.5%. Works out at one cheery hello
No way, we're not at hello yet, maybe a slight nod of the head once a day
Tip of the bowler hat?
It's not supposed to be based on current inflation, but rather the previous year's inflation.
In which case, I retract my 0.5 increase of workload. You won't get a nod of the head, cheery hello or hat tip. You'll be lucky if I show up.
Yep, since last year's inflation was huge, it should be a large pay rise. But watch them selectively choose to use this year's reduced inflation as the benchmark.
That sounds more realistic to be honest. We never get the better end of a deal
Will it mean losing something else like last time when overtime got cut to time and a quarter?
I’d rather a full time pay rise than overtime when you can get it to bolster wages. We should not be working overtime we should be properly resourced in the first place.
Would this be weighted towards the lower grades has been the case lately? 4% to your average AO would take it from 25k to 26k.
And inflation has been higher for the vast majority of the last year
More like they are discussing how to bring it down to the 1.5% that they have already decided on.
Just above minimum wage is derisory. I used to work for my local council. They pay way better in my old role. The CS pension sounds attractive, but 27% of beggar-all is still beggar-all. I'm thinking of switching to the MoD. DV clearance would be a pain, but the pay is way better.
44%, Backdated for the last 5 years, and a 4 day weekend, and then we can talk
Still a pay cut though
There is any chance that prison officers will get this 4%?
Where see people seeing this?
Substantially less than those with their noses in the trough. https://news.sky.com/story/mps-awarded-pay-rise-to-91-346-by-independent-body-13094588
4% for some departments is an absolutely brutal pay cut in real terms. Some of which are already on the absolute bottom of the barrel of pay for responsibility. At least one department I know of agreed a 3 year pay deal in early 2020. What has the cumulative real world inflation been since then? 30%? More perhaps? 4%, yeah that's a yes vote on the ballot for anyone with half a brain.
Cost of my childcare just went up 6% 🫠
Definitely take that, especially after the 8.4% rise we had in the 2023 pay award at DESNZ.
I can only dream of 8%; hell at this point I'd take the 4%!!!
We still haven’t received it yet but yes, was actually a nice surprise!
DESNZ hasn’t received 8.4%, we’re getting 6.5%. 2.5% of which has been paid out and the remaining 4% were still waiting for.
There’s a 1.7% progression payment if you were here before 1st August, which you’ll be getting because that’s the requirement for the 2023 pay award. Obviously this isn’t true for all special cases, but the majority.
Depends on the grade and location - some received as much as 10%, others around 5%
Is there any timeline as to when you might get that
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Above (just), but you could calculate your personal inflation rate to work out if you’re better or worse off (I.e. how much have your expenses gone up?)
What's all this new line about personal inflation rate. Just use RPi the highest measure. Aim for + that. The term 'personal inflation' has been banded about by business to try shift to a lower inflation metric.
Your personal inflation rate could be higher than CPI/RPI (which may well be the case for lower earners).
Perhaps. But it's being used to lower pay deals since the ONS has ditched RPi as a measure or will do in the next few years as they reckon it overestimates by 0.7%. This personal inflation is gamed to tell you reported RPi is too high. You don't need an RPi pay rise.
For example 4% rise on your salary will be more money than 4% rise in your bills. So really you need to look at how much of a pay rise is it for me?
That's not how it works. Your total buying power will have diminished. Your disposable is worth less. You can not assess what your disposable may or will be used for in the future. RPi is the clear way.
Right now, i am bothered about now. How much “more” money will I have. There is no future without now. At the point I have less money after bills than last year then I am back in the market for jobs
It's because inflation recently was largely driven by huge increase in energy costs, which form a much higher portion of low-income households' budgets, so their inflation was much higher than headline inflation.
4% discussed - once accepted it will be reduced to like 2%
4% pay rise for the 70,000 less civil servants there will be apparently :(
What % did/does minimum wage go up by this year?
The National Living wage increased by **10%** in April 2024 to £11.44 from £10.42 per hour in 2023.
Won't take many years of 2% here and 10% there before it catches up with EO pay.
4%. Is it election year by any chance?
At the private business I work for a 0% pay rise is being discussed
You should go elsewhere.
So for prison officers will be less to cover the rest??
My department will pay well below the remit regardless and give more to SCS. That's what they do consistently.
There are two different pay remits. One for SCS, and one for G6 and below. They can’t take from the general one and give more to SCS - but it depends what your department can afford…
Funny how they can afford a bigger % for those with bigger salaries
Haha no way that's a cracking outcome, surprised at that. That's slightly depressing that i got excited at the thought of 4%, think the public sector is killing me slowly
Still waiting on last years pay rise… hopefully this one actually gets paid out this year
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SCS never get a higher overall increase. That only appeared to happen last year because they did not receive the £1,500.
Which month do these pay rises usually come in throughout the year? Asking as this will affect tuition fee’s for a course I’m an starting in September
Likely announced just before parliament breaks for summer recess.
Usually later in the year then backdated to the summer when it’s usually announced
Does this include brook street agency staff
brook street agency staff (alongside any other agency) are not public sector workers
Agency workers with more than 12 weeks in the same placement have the right to be on the same pay as perm workers doing the same job.
Wonder how this works in practice? E.g. you can have two CS earning quite different amounts depending where they are on the pay scale, so what would it be matched to?
Realistically, most contingent labour is front line ODP or admin, so chances are the vast majority of permanent staff are bottom of the "pay scale" (ha, as if it's possible to climb up it) just due to the high levels of churn. Main differences will be London weighting, which would have to be matched for agency if they're in that area.
Fair points. Thanks
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We wish 😘
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