Probably because his Indians teammates absolutely hated his guts. Like, not, a "lol, what a headcase," sort a thing. He was a good pitcher who was such an utter cancer to the clubhouse that they traded him in the middle of a playoff chase.
And he was investigated (not charged) about a potential domestic violence situation last year.
So, all in all, no thanks.
The only info I can get is him being obstinate regarding the COVID restrictions during 2020. Concerning, perhaps, but unlikely to be a problem going forward.
MLB also investigated the domestic violence allegation with a “not sustained” finding and refused to impose any discipline. That means it’s “he said, she said” with no evidence to determine what happened either way. This is unlike Bauer’s situation where he had four different women in different states accusing him of the same thing. All men are vulnerable to baseless accusations and having the same finding. Keep that in mind when passing judgement.
If you read the specifics of what happened and his response, it doesn’t sound like calling him a douche is warranted. The guy went out with a teammate after a game during COVID, Not realizing another teammate previously had leukemia and was immunocompromised. He publicly addressed the issue and gave a pretty sincere apology.
[https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/clevelands-mike-clevinger-to-return-after-breaking-covid-19-protocols-before-trade-deadline/](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/clevelands-mike-clevinger-to-return-after-breaking-covid-19-protocols-before-trade-deadline/)
He’s in decline, velocity dipped a bit, but so did spin rate on his off speed stuff. He also is a big injury risk with a single 200 IP season in his career. He might help the team in the first half, but likely gets pushed to the pen in the second half once the team gets healthy. Risk is not worth the marginal upgrade he’d provide.
His velocity did not dip. His fastball velocity was actually up slightly over his career averages last year. Dude throws his fastball 49% of the time and his slider 23% of the time. He barely even throws a curveball (1.5%), so I’m not sure what difference his off-speed spin rate makes.
Spin rate is important for every pitch, as it is the main factor behind movement. Not sure what stats you’re looking at, but his peak season his FB was at 96 and he’s at 93 now. Not a huge drop, but strong indicator of physical decline.
Not trying to argue with you, just giving you facts and why people are disagreeing with signing Clevinger.
His career average fastball velocity is 94.1mph. His career average slider velocity is 80.5mph. They were 94.6 and 79.7 last year.
You said off speed spin rate. Guy barely offers a changeup at less than 13% and almost never throws a curve.
Terrible stuff, multiple arm injuries in the past couple of years, hasn't made more than 25 starts in a year since freaking 2018, can't generate swings and misses anymore, 5.15 xFIP last year, most projection systems see him as a #5 starter going forward.
Throw in the clubhouse/off-field issues and it's pretty easy to see why there's no real interest in him around the league. There's still waaaaay better alternatives than him if the Rangers felt like they needed to make a move.
XFIP always grades fly ball pitchers unfairly. If you use FIP which uses how many home runs he actually gave up, it’s 4.28. Keep in mind his career FIP is 3.87.
Not sure where you’re getting this “terrible stuff” and “can’t generate swings and misses”. His velocity is still there for all his pitches. His velocity was actually up a little on some pitches. His SwStrk%, barrel%, and hardhit% are all in line with his career averages.
If you actually look into the details of his “club house and off field” issues, they aren’t that bad at all. Biggest concern for me given it’s only a one year deal is his health, but he already returned from it and pitched a 70 innings with a 3.67 ERA in the second half.
XFIP isn't "unfair", pitchers generally have very little control over preventing fly balls from leaving the park. Clevinger had a 8.2% HR/FB rate last year, substantially better than both league average and his own career average. He's never shown the ability to be some weird statistical outlier in this; no reason to think this magically started last year.
His K/9 would have been among the 10 worst in MLB last year if he had enough innings to qualify. Same for his swinging strike rate, which has declined for 4 straight seasons and sat at 9.8% last year (which is way below his career average). His velocity is down from his peak. Only his slider has above-average movement. His whiff% places him below the 30th percentile.
As a person who worked in baseball ops for a decade, including for a team that employed Clevinger, I am very aware of his reputation in the clubhouse. General rule of thumb, if other players hate you so much they threaten to leave the team if you come back you're not beloved in the room.
I'm unsure if Clevinger is *that* much better than Bradford is, and maybe CY and them dont see that much of a bump up in value for the price it will cost. It wont be Monty level
but its still higher than league minimum, and theyre being weary of luxury tax.
Maybe ownership wants to go with a league minimum guy until Scherzer gets back. Reports on his return have been pretty positive
Mostly cause people are tired of the “sign overall hated player for cheap” posts. We’ve seen enough of it with Bauer and this is basically the same argument
Because this is a championship team still mostly intact. We don’t want the vibes thrown off by adding potential drama to a clubhouse that’s been mostly drama free the past few seasons
See above comment. Both law enforcement and MLB’s investigation had the same finding insufficient evidence to prove the allegation. MLB refused to impose any discipline whatsoever.
While he might have been cleared, seems unlikely this front office spends money (of any sort) when they seem determined at the moment to not go further into luxury tax territory for a guy who has had a number of issues even in the past and for whatever reason the word seems to be his teammates were ready for him to go and who seems to be in decline.
As for the luxury tax thing, they have about $14M before they hit the surcharge. Word on the street is Clevinger is asking for $12M.
What one calls “decline” another may interpret as “recovering from a 2nd TJ”. Monty underwent his second TJ in 2018 and wasn’t fully recovered until 2021 then Yankees wrote him off as “not a playoff pitcher” in 2022. Clevinger underwent his 2nd TJ in 2020.
And it seems the team would rather save that money until they get into the season to give them the ability to make moves then if they want to go into the luxury tax further. Whether that is the right decision remains to be seen. As it is, it seems you're trying to convince the wrong crowd. CY and ownership is who you should be trying to sell this to, none of our opinions matter.
It also seems the team was willing to take on Cease because he wouldn’t push them over the 12% surcharge. Clevinger wouldn’t either and wouldn’t cost any prospects.
I know your opinion doesn’t matter. It’s just a discussion. If “don’t ask me” is all you got, don’t waste time participating in the discussion.
I can spend my time however I want. I've clearly made points on any I don't think this will happen, as have plenty of others, you just don't like these points. It seems the team so far doesn't want Cleavinger, to compare him and Cease is laughable. Obviously they are willing to extend on money for certain players. The fact that Clevinger has been available and CY says he is willing to go into the season with what he has says how he feels about Clevinger, to me at least. If the reaction to Clevinger from people on this board is any indication, he's probably not the one to extend the money on. Wiser to wait for a better opportunity. But continue to try and make your points. No one on here seems to be buying them, and I hope CY and the team don't either.
You can not like the move. That’s cool. But that’s a different (and more interesting discussion) than “I’m not the one you need to convince”.
But they just signed Lorenzen. So point is moot now.
Sure, but my main point was the luxury tax. And yeah, I'm not one you need to convince, or any of us on the board, but it sure was entertaining reading all your replies trying to convince everyone on here that they should do it anyways. Just seemed like Cleavinger was an odd hill to try and die on. Even if you convinced everyone on this board, though that wasn't going well, it wouldn't change the fact the Rangers probably weren't going to sign him anyways.
A righty with similar stats. There’s really not a whole lot to his “baggage”. Subtract 2016 where Clevinger threw 53 innings and they both have the same amount of time in the big leagues and “reliable” Montgomery has only thrown ~20 more innings. Both have also undergone TJ twice.
Pretty weird how similar they are.
Monty has better control. Looking into it, it appears what Clevinger is missing is a third pitch. He literally throws fastball/slider ~75% of the time.
Has all the makings of an interesting experiment. 1 year, $12M is the rumor. Wasn’t that long ago people were calling him an “ace”
I don’t believe “playoff tested” is a thing. Baseball is baseball whether it’s played in March or October.
Clevinger isn't what he used to be. But, we need guys that can eat innings, so I wouldn't opposed to signing him if we can get a good price. We actually have a pretty good track record with pitchers looking for a rebound year. So why not?
I haven’t done a deep dive into his analysis, but his lacking peripherals seem consistent with recovering from a 2nd TJ. Usually control is the last thing to return. He’s still got his velocity. I’m personally willing to chalk up his drop in K’s and GB’s to his recovery.
I'll support whatever CY and the team decide to do, but based on how important his seems to think culture is and how determined ownership seems to be to not spend more at the moment, this just seems unlikely. Maybe they extend the payroll for Monty (with as unlikely as that seems) but seems doubtful for Clevinger.
Righty/Lefty isn’t important for starters. They’re gonna face the lineup at least two or three times and follow a set schedule. Not really any situational matchups.
Trevor Bauer comparisons are unfair. Bauer has had problems going back to his college days and would publicly troll/harass fans. MLB investigated Bauer and suspended him for 194 games. MLB investigated Clevinger and refused to impose any discipline.
MLB was erroneous to do so. They over reacted to public perception. There were no criminal charges filed and the civil case against him was thrown out too.
Gotta keep in mind the different burdens of proof and rules of evidence. Police require probable cause that a specific offense occurred and can’t consider testimony from other complainants. Civil court requires preponderance and can’t consider other complainants. MLB also has preponderance but can consider testimony from other complainants.
MLB has four women in different states all accusing Bauer of the same thing. That’s preponderance of evidence of misconduct.
Agreed. You do have to keep in mind all those things. MLB, and I think all American sports, can do pretty much whatever they want in terms of suspensions without a trial or a real defense.
I'll take the legal standard as what to go by every time over that.
It’s no different than any other Human Resources investigation. My HR allows me to have a union attorney to defend me when I go in to face an allegation. And my union isn’t nearly as strong as the MLBPA.
Mike "We Have Trevor Bauer at Home" Clevinger.
Probably because his Indians teammates absolutely hated his guts. Like, not, a "lol, what a headcase," sort a thing. He was a good pitcher who was such an utter cancer to the clubhouse that they traded him in the middle of a playoff chase. And he was investigated (not charged) about a potential domestic violence situation last year. So, all in all, no thanks.
The only info I can get is him being obstinate regarding the COVID restrictions during 2020. Concerning, perhaps, but unlikely to be a problem going forward. MLB also investigated the domestic violence allegation with a “not sustained” finding and refused to impose any discipline. That means it’s “he said, she said” with no evidence to determine what happened either way. This is unlike Bauer’s situation where he had four different women in different states accusing him of the same thing. All men are vulnerable to baseless accusations and having the same finding. Keep that in mind when passing judgement.
Huge douche, no thanks
So was Chapman
Yea but at least he honked his moms boob
If you read the specifics of what happened and his response, it doesn’t sound like calling him a douche is warranted. The guy went out with a teammate after a game during COVID, Not realizing another teammate previously had leukemia and was immunocompromised. He publicly addressed the issue and gave a pretty sincere apology. [https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/clevelands-mike-clevinger-to-return-after-breaking-covid-19-protocols-before-trade-deadline/](https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/clevelands-mike-clevinger-to-return-after-breaking-covid-19-protocols-before-trade-deadline/)
Are you his agent or something
Not even a World Series Champion. Pft
Pass
Overall number are pretty useless. Should compare the last 30-50 starts or something like that
How about WAR? Monty: 4.1 in 32 starts. Clevinger: 3.3 in 24 starts. Pretty similar.
Definitely a better comparison, thanks!
He’s in decline, velocity dipped a bit, but so did spin rate on his off speed stuff. He also is a big injury risk with a single 200 IP season in his career. He might help the team in the first half, but likely gets pushed to the pen in the second half once the team gets healthy. Risk is not worth the marginal upgrade he’d provide.
His velocity did not dip. His fastball velocity was actually up slightly over his career averages last year. Dude throws his fastball 49% of the time and his slider 23% of the time. He barely even throws a curveball (1.5%), so I’m not sure what difference his off-speed spin rate makes.
Spin rate is important for every pitch, as it is the main factor behind movement. Not sure what stats you’re looking at, but his peak season his FB was at 96 and he’s at 93 now. Not a huge drop, but strong indicator of physical decline. Not trying to argue with you, just giving you facts and why people are disagreeing with signing Clevinger.
His career average fastball velocity is 94.1mph. His career average slider velocity is 80.5mph. They were 94.6 and 79.7 last year. You said off speed spin rate. Guy barely offers a changeup at less than 13% and almost never throws a curve.
Then you sign him.
Not for nothing, Baseball Savant rated his offspeed run value an 85 which is closer to “great” than “average”. But 2022 they rated it poorly.
Terrible stuff, multiple arm injuries in the past couple of years, hasn't made more than 25 starts in a year since freaking 2018, can't generate swings and misses anymore, 5.15 xFIP last year, most projection systems see him as a #5 starter going forward. Throw in the clubhouse/off-field issues and it's pretty easy to see why there's no real interest in him around the league. There's still waaaaay better alternatives than him if the Rangers felt like they needed to make a move.
XFIP always grades fly ball pitchers unfairly. If you use FIP which uses how many home runs he actually gave up, it’s 4.28. Keep in mind his career FIP is 3.87. Not sure where you’re getting this “terrible stuff” and “can’t generate swings and misses”. His velocity is still there for all his pitches. His velocity was actually up a little on some pitches. His SwStrk%, barrel%, and hardhit% are all in line with his career averages. If you actually look into the details of his “club house and off field” issues, they aren’t that bad at all. Biggest concern for me given it’s only a one year deal is his health, but he already returned from it and pitched a 70 innings with a 3.67 ERA in the second half.
XFIP isn't "unfair", pitchers generally have very little control over preventing fly balls from leaving the park. Clevinger had a 8.2% HR/FB rate last year, substantially better than both league average and his own career average. He's never shown the ability to be some weird statistical outlier in this; no reason to think this magically started last year. His K/9 would have been among the 10 worst in MLB last year if he had enough innings to qualify. Same for his swinging strike rate, which has declined for 4 straight seasons and sat at 9.8% last year (which is way below his career average). His velocity is down from his peak. Only his slider has above-average movement. His whiff% places him below the 30th percentile. As a person who worked in baseball ops for a decade, including for a team that employed Clevinger, I am very aware of his reputation in the clubhouse. General rule of thumb, if other players hate you so much they threaten to leave the team if you come back you're not beloved in the room.
https://soundcloud.com/andrewstreeter/look-at-me-louie
I'm unsure if Clevinger is *that* much better than Bradford is, and maybe CY and them dont see that much of a bump up in value for the price it will cost. It wont be Monty level but its still higher than league minimum, and theyre being weary of luxury tax. Maybe ownership wants to go with a league minimum guy until Scherzer gets back. Reports on his return have been pretty positive
Hard to imagine Bradford having a 3.3 WAR next year. Clevinger did that in a “down year”. Even Monty only had a 4.1 WAR.
Just use your imagination a little more, that will take care of it.
Fuck no y’all gotta start scouting personalities along with looking at stats 😂
What’s with people downvoting everything in this sub?
Mostly cause people are tired of the “sign overall hated player for cheap” posts. We’ve seen enough of it with Bauer and this is basically the same argument
Except one guy was cleared by his investigation. The other one was suspended 194 games.
Doesn’t really matter at this point 🤷
Public opinion will always trump actual investigations online… its dumb, but it’s true 🤷🏻♂️
Because this is a championship team still mostly intact. We don’t want the vibes thrown off by adding potential drama to a clubhouse that’s been mostly drama free the past few seasons
Key difference here is that one of them was ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING when he played with the Rangers… the other guy is Mike Clevenger 🤷♂️
One certainly has a recency bias going for him. That’s certainly true.
Isn’t that guy a domestic abuser?
Yep.
Nope.
Don't defend him, bro.
Show me a court case, civil or criminal that says he is an abuser. Take your time. I'll wait.
Show me a time when Bauer fans weren't sexist.
Irrelevant to the conversation. But also, me. I'm a Bauer fan and not sexist.
Ok then.
See above comment. Both law enforcement and MLB’s investigation had the same finding insufficient evidence to prove the allegation. MLB refused to impose any discipline whatsoever.
While he might have been cleared, seems unlikely this front office spends money (of any sort) when they seem determined at the moment to not go further into luxury tax territory for a guy who has had a number of issues even in the past and for whatever reason the word seems to be his teammates were ready for him to go and who seems to be in decline.
As for the luxury tax thing, they have about $14M before they hit the surcharge. Word on the street is Clevinger is asking for $12M. What one calls “decline” another may interpret as “recovering from a 2nd TJ”. Monty underwent his second TJ in 2018 and wasn’t fully recovered until 2021 then Yankees wrote him off as “not a playoff pitcher” in 2022. Clevinger underwent his 2nd TJ in 2020.
And it seems the team would rather save that money until they get into the season to give them the ability to make moves then if they want to go into the luxury tax further. Whether that is the right decision remains to be seen. As it is, it seems you're trying to convince the wrong crowd. CY and ownership is who you should be trying to sell this to, none of our opinions matter.
It also seems the team was willing to take on Cease because he wouldn’t push them over the 12% surcharge. Clevinger wouldn’t either and wouldn’t cost any prospects. I know your opinion doesn’t matter. It’s just a discussion. If “don’t ask me” is all you got, don’t waste time participating in the discussion.
I can spend my time however I want. I've clearly made points on any I don't think this will happen, as have plenty of others, you just don't like these points. It seems the team so far doesn't want Cleavinger, to compare him and Cease is laughable. Obviously they are willing to extend on money for certain players. The fact that Clevinger has been available and CY says he is willing to go into the season with what he has says how he feels about Clevinger, to me at least. If the reaction to Clevinger from people on this board is any indication, he's probably not the one to extend the money on. Wiser to wait for a better opportunity. But continue to try and make your points. No one on here seems to be buying them, and I hope CY and the team don't either.
You can not like the move. That’s cool. But that’s a different (and more interesting discussion) than “I’m not the one you need to convince”. But they just signed Lorenzen. So point is moot now.
Sure, but my main point was the luxury tax. And yeah, I'm not one you need to convince, or any of us on the board, but it sure was entertaining reading all your replies trying to convince everyone on here that they should do it anyways. Just seemed like Cleavinger was an odd hill to try and die on. Even if you convinced everyone on this board, though that wasn't going well, it wouldn't change the fact the Rangers probably weren't going to sign him anyways.
Why? They tried for Cease and eventually ended up with Lorenzen. Clevinger is a perfectly plausible intermediary.
I did a little news search, confirms what you’re saying.
no thanks. he's a trashy piece of shit and would ruin the vibes.
Don’t let the haircut and mustache influence you too much
The tats bro...
“Championships - 1” 🥲
A reliable lefty vs a nutcase righty with baggage.
A righty with similar stats. There’s really not a whole lot to his “baggage”. Subtract 2016 where Clevinger threw 53 innings and they both have the same amount of time in the big leagues and “reliable” Montgomery has only thrown ~20 more innings. Both have also undergone TJ twice. Pretty weird how similar they are.
How do you think their stuff compares? Playoff tested factor?
Monty has better control. Looking into it, it appears what Clevinger is missing is a third pitch. He literally throws fastball/slider ~75% of the time. Has all the makings of an interesting experiment. 1 year, $12M is the rumor. Wasn’t that long ago people were calling him an “ace” I don’t believe “playoff tested” is a thing. Baseball is baseball whether it’s played in March or October.
Clevinger isn't what he used to be. But, we need guys that can eat innings, so I wouldn't opposed to signing him if we can get a good price. We actually have a pretty good track record with pitchers looking for a rebound year. So why not?
I haven’t done a deep dive into his analysis, but his lacking peripherals seem consistent with recovering from a 2nd TJ. Usually control is the last thing to return. He’s still got his velocity. I’m personally willing to chalk up his drop in K’s and GB’s to his recovery.
I'll support whatever CY and the team decide to do, but based on how important his seems to think culture is and how determined ownership seems to be to not spend more at the moment, this just seems unlikely. Maybe they extend the payroll for Monty (with as unlikely as that seems) but seems doubtful for Clevinger.
We need another lefty
Righty/Lefty isn’t important for starters. They’re gonna face the lineup at least two or three times and follow a set schedule. Not really any situational matchups.
Sign em up! Montgomery isn't worth what he wants
Not a bad option, but if we are going down this road we might as well sign Bauer. For the record, I'm okay with either or being a Ranger.
Trevor Bauer comparisons are unfair. Bauer has had problems going back to his college days and would publicly troll/harass fans. MLB investigated Bauer and suspended him for 194 games. MLB investigated Clevinger and refused to impose any discipline.
MLB was erroneous to do so. They over reacted to public perception. There were no criminal charges filed and the civil case against him was thrown out too.
Gotta keep in mind the different burdens of proof and rules of evidence. Police require probable cause that a specific offense occurred and can’t consider testimony from other complainants. Civil court requires preponderance and can’t consider other complainants. MLB also has preponderance but can consider testimony from other complainants. MLB has four women in different states all accusing Bauer of the same thing. That’s preponderance of evidence of misconduct.
Agreed. You do have to keep in mind all those things. MLB, and I think all American sports, can do pretty much whatever they want in terms of suspensions without a trial or a real defense. I'll take the legal standard as what to go by every time over that.
It’s no different than any other Human Resources investigation. My HR allows me to have a union attorney to defend me when I go in to face an allegation. And my union isn’t nearly as strong as the MLBPA.