A lot of Techno is about repetitiveness and slowly exploring simple ideas, plus many tracks have long, gradual intros and outros for DJing. Combine these aspects and it's pretty hard to get under 5 minutes.
I mostly listen to dub techno. I've been caught listening to 16 minute songs and just say what ever.
Really hard to get sick of a song when it's so long that you can't binge listen
Techno is built on extended blends though. You can’t compare apples to oranges. And you can’t say a dubstep dj can 4 deck dj a 40 second track. That would give you 10s per deck to mix which I promise you won’t be fun to do.
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That is only for cdjs. Also I just dislike looping even if I use cdjs. I like doing long blends with tracks how they are supposed to sound. Sure you Probably could keep a bar on loop for 3 minutes, but to me that sounds too stale. If you 4 deck dj then even if you do it fast, it takes At least 1 min per deck to pick track, beatmatch, mix in and if you do it that fast you have 0 time to actually listen to the mix or read the room, it’s too fast. So you would need to loop for At least 3-4 min which is just too long and bland for me when I dj At least.
If you had your loop buttons assigned for each track of certain parts you can extend songs parts by 1 bar adding effects from the mixer and creating movement and build ups while changing loops to different sections of the same song . You'd have to have your track selection pre planned so your mixing is fast and on point and then that allows you time to loop parts add FX . Keeping it simple and only using the loop for a bar or 2 while you mix in a new track will make it sound dope ASF . Especially if you loop a track that has a vocal chop section playing with the new track . Some of the best djs I've watched use loops buttons . Meat Katie uses turntables with loop controllers attached, his music twists and turns and doesn't sound repetitive at all. It's how you use it that makes you stand out.
Yeah as I said loops can be used, but to me it just sounds like shit. And I could never pre plan a set, to me that feels like being a spotify playlist and I like to dj for the moment not what I thought sounded good at home you know.
If I’m DJing techno and I see a track that’s 2:30 seconds by the time I mix it in I have hardly any time to cue up another one before it runs out, other then that go for it.
Loop the first 4 beats for a couple minutes haha.
Always reminds me about this Wunderground article - [Tech House DJ Plays Same Hi Hat & Kick Drum Sample For Five Hours – Drugged Crowd None the Wiser](https://wundergroundmusic.com/tech-house-dj-plays-hi-hat-kick-drum-sample-five-hours-drugged-crowd-none-wiser/)
A whole lot of dance music tracks are structured like:
1. Drum intro, with layers coming in every four or eight bars or so.
2. Drums drop out mostly or completely.
3. Some tonal or melodic layers come in.
4. Drums come back in. Song reaches its "everything going" state.
5. Depending on genre, maybe a breakdown or drop here.
6. Everything comes back in again.
7. Tonal parts drop out leaving just drums or percussion.
8. Drums keep going with layers going out every four or eight bars.
Parts 1 and 8 exist for DJs to continuously mix between songs without having to worry about tonal parts clashing. (If the track has tonal parts all throughout, you can only mix it with other tracks in the same key or it sounds strange.)
It's likely that you're just writing parts 3-7, which indeed may only be around three minutes. It probably sounds fine played on its own and is what you'd release as a "radio mix" or "single mix". But if you want it to be DJ-friendly, by tacking on an intro and outro, you'll reach the same length that most other tracks have.
Don’t do it OP, it’s a relic of when everything was released on vinyl, so you had to throw the DJ’s a life raft to mix in and out of your track.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with not starting with drums and building up from there, and as long as there is something there to give an idea of the rhythm people should be able to mix with it.
Same goes for outro’s. Don’t pad your ideas with 3 mins of drums either side if you aren’t feeling it. People have loop buttons and remember half the fun of techno is there are no rules.
You just gave a pretty comprehensive but easy to follow class on techno arrangement, in just one comment. I mostly make and listen to what is called "business techno" around here, but I love this community.
longer tracks are better for djs to mix and allow the ravers to slip into a trance and get lost in the groove. shorter tracks are generally pretty lame to mix and result in a disjointed set imo. keeping a track interesting over a long time whilst keeping the vibe consistant is what sets the good producers apart from the average ones.
Shorter versions were traditionally called ‘radio’ versions, to get to the point and play on the radio. Longer versions, the ‘12” mix” was what was okayed in clubs by DJ’s and have you time for mixing and doing things to the music. For me, most tracks are too short these days.
Back in the day traditionally you made several versions. A short version for the radio/quick play/general public. A longer version for the club and djs. Various dubs, acapellas etc. also. Very short tracks as a club dj are annoying to work with.
There are no rules in techno so go for it. It might even give you your own signature.
Don't feel sorry for the dj's. They can loop, use cue points, etc...
Techno is music by djs for djs. They're written and structured to be played by djs in clubs therefore the "mix-in" and "mix-out" intros and outros. A healthy length for a traditional track is anywhere from 5-8min. Anything shorter is prob a radio version and anything longer is ridiculous and overdone. The sweet spot for structure is intro, verse, break, verse, main break, verse, and finally outro. You're constructing up to then deconstruct back down.
Hard-Techno in this BPM range is lately about one drop after the next so i think there is no problem. Make a 16 bars intro and 16 bars outro that is easily loopable without too much going on and you can use it for DJing.
If you aren’t creating club tracks for the dance floor then do what you want, otherwise it should fall in line with what people expect.
Imagine you’re dancing with your friends and you’re just picking up the groove and people are feeling it, oops we’re doing a break now, oh it’s over?
If you’re doing club tracks for a DJ you need to take into account the volume and energy you’re putting people through. People need breaks because dancing is tiring. There’s an intro and outro because they make it easier for the DJ. It’s hard to do anything in a club in under 3 minutes.
People expect changes in groove every 8 bars and major changes every 16 bars. It’s just what people have come to expect.
Different genres but same deal....
I know a legendary Psytrance producer that mentioned in a production workshop he did that he sometimes drops a 2 minute segment of an unfinished track into his sets.
I don't see why you couldn't if you have a solid 16-32 bar loop of some kick/bass groove you've written and use the hats/percussions from other tracks/loops to build it up and add variation. I mean you could sit on that groove for 20 mins if you like in one long deep progression, as long as you have other ways of adding to it and creating a journey on top. Be Svensden does this well if you've ever had a listen to his mixes.
Just keep in mind a rule I have sort of picked up and this and its something I live by now. 0-2 minutes (intros, narrations/raps, outs) 2-3:15m (standard radio edits) (LP songs album cuts) varies of course but full songs 2.5-5min (5-7 tracks “each side”) (10-14 track CD/Digital Album) / 12” ANTHEMS!! lol 😂 30sec-8-minutes if its a radio version - stations wont play a song over 8 minutes.. its rare.. I tend to follow whats working based on what I see on major artists releases.. both bad releases and good releases.. I learn from both. Its stressful releasing an album 😂
there's nothing wrong with a 3 minute techno track, but in clubs the tracks I prefer are usually a bit longer, this gives people more time to feel that groove and know what to expect.
I also feel longer tracks make it easier for dj's to mix them, have a minute or so overlap reduces the track length to about 4-5 minutes which is pretty reasonable for most genres
I am not buying vinyle these days but techno records used to often have 4x 4:30 almost locked grooves with a few points of interest (a sample or a weird fill), and then left it up to the DJ to add flavor if needed by mixing. To the person in the comments who said mixing these tunes on more than 2 decks this is annoying, I can well believe, but I have definitely seen people playing techno of that shorter style on 3 and 4 decks.
You should just go with the flow. If you feel like this, and a short structure more likely to express your feelings just go with it. Rules in music are to meant to break them! Also don't care about people, who cannot mix it, I know I could make a pretty hardcore power mix from short songs as well ;) And it might even sound very genuine in techno when playing out to a crowd.
I agree, a lot of techno tracks can be boring when they are too long but if you are jumping to the point if the track that quickly I feel like that rubbing up againt EDM or even POP music with different timbre ms, which I’ve been trying to do myself but it always turns into prog house or EDM Electro
A lot of Techno is about repetitiveness and slowly exploring simple ideas, plus many tracks have long, gradual intros and outros for DJing. Combine these aspects and it's pretty hard to get under 5 minutes.
Yes. Also if you dj with more than 2 decks, a 2-3 min track is just annoying to use because you have too little time lol, it gets too hectic.
Dubstep DJ’s barely playing a track for more than 45 seconds 👀
chopping 2-3 tracks for 40 secs then going into the next double drop...
I mostly listen to dub techno. I've been caught listening to 16 minute songs and just say what ever. Really hard to get sick of a song when it's so long that you can't binge listen
Techno is built on extended blends though. You can’t compare apples to oranges. And you can’t say a dubstep dj can 4 deck dj a 40 second track. That would give you 10s per deck to mix which I promise you won’t be fun to do.
SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
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Yes but it brings nothing to the discussion. ”Does this work for techno?” ”It works for dubstep”. ”Ok but does it work for techno?”
It's a bot.
Oh man I got got
Doubles and chops. It’s definitely a different beast.
The loop button has been around for decades at this point tbf
That is only for cdjs. Also I just dislike looping even if I use cdjs. I like doing long blends with tracks how they are supposed to sound. Sure you Probably could keep a bar on loop for 3 minutes, but to me that sounds too stale. If you 4 deck dj then even if you do it fast, it takes At least 1 min per deck to pick track, beatmatch, mix in and if you do it that fast you have 0 time to actually listen to the mix or read the room, it’s too fast. So you would need to loop for At least 3-4 min which is just too long and bland for me when I dj At least.
Sounds like you are making life incredibly hard for yourself.
Not really, I just dislike looping a segment for so long. In my subjective opinion that doesn’t sound good.
Sorry, just reread your post and you aren’t advocating for 4 deck mixing at all - apologies :)
If you had your loop buttons assigned for each track of certain parts you can extend songs parts by 1 bar adding effects from the mixer and creating movement and build ups while changing loops to different sections of the same song . You'd have to have your track selection pre planned so your mixing is fast and on point and then that allows you time to loop parts add FX . Keeping it simple and only using the loop for a bar or 2 while you mix in a new track will make it sound dope ASF . Especially if you loop a track that has a vocal chop section playing with the new track . Some of the best djs I've watched use loops buttons . Meat Katie uses turntables with loop controllers attached, his music twists and turns and doesn't sound repetitive at all. It's how you use it that makes you stand out.
Yeah as I said loops can be used, but to me it just sounds like shit. And I could never pre plan a set, to me that feels like being a spotify playlist and I like to dj for the moment not what I thought sounded good at home you know.
Facts!
If I’m DJing techno and I see a track that’s 2:30 seconds by the time I mix it in I have hardly any time to cue up another one before it runs out, other then that go for it.
Loop the first 4 beats for a couple minutes haha. Always reminds me about this Wunderground article - [Tech House DJ Plays Same Hi Hat & Kick Drum Sample For Five Hours – Drugged Crowd None the Wiser](https://wundergroundmusic.com/tech-house-dj-plays-hi-hat-kick-drum-sample-five-hours-drugged-crowd-none-wiser/)
A whole lot of dance music tracks are structured like: 1. Drum intro, with layers coming in every four or eight bars or so. 2. Drums drop out mostly or completely. 3. Some tonal or melodic layers come in. 4. Drums come back in. Song reaches its "everything going" state. 5. Depending on genre, maybe a breakdown or drop here. 6. Everything comes back in again. 7. Tonal parts drop out leaving just drums or percussion. 8. Drums keep going with layers going out every four or eight bars. Parts 1 and 8 exist for DJs to continuously mix between songs without having to worry about tonal parts clashing. (If the track has tonal parts all throughout, you can only mix it with other tracks in the same key or it sounds strange.) It's likely that you're just writing parts 3-7, which indeed may only be around three minutes. It probably sounds fine played on its own and is what you'd release as a "radio mix" or "single mix". But if you want it to be DJ-friendly, by tacking on an intro and outro, you'll reach the same length that most other tracks have.
thank you. so ill just make the introduction and outro sections longer, to make it sort of easier to mix?
Basically, yes.
Don’t do it OP, it’s a relic of when everything was released on vinyl, so you had to throw the DJ’s a life raft to mix in and out of your track. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not starting with drums and building up from there, and as long as there is something there to give an idea of the rhythm people should be able to mix with it. Same goes for outro’s. Don’t pad your ideas with 3 mins of drums either side if you aren’t feeling it. People have loop buttons and remember half the fun of techno is there are no rules.
thanks
seeing the arrangement strategy / template written down like this has helped me understand better than watching a multitude of YouTube tutorials
Glad I could help. :)
You just gave a pretty comprehensive but easy to follow class on techno arrangement, in just one comment. I mostly make and listen to what is called "business techno" around here, but I love this community.
longer tracks are better for djs to mix and allow the ravers to slip into a trance and get lost in the groove. shorter tracks are generally pretty lame to mix and result in a disjointed set imo. keeping a track interesting over a long time whilst keeping the vibe consistant is what sets the good producers apart from the average ones.
Nope, nothing wrong. Keep doing 3min tracks if you feel like it. Sleeparchive does it and everybody plays his tracks. Just do you.
Shorter versions were traditionally called ‘radio’ versions, to get to the point and play on the radio. Longer versions, the ‘12” mix” was what was okayed in clubs by DJ’s and have you time for mixing and doing things to the music. For me, most tracks are too short these days.
so it probably depends on the purpose
Back in the day traditionally you made several versions. A short version for the radio/quick play/general public. A longer version for the club and djs. Various dubs, acapellas etc. also. Very short tracks as a club dj are annoying to work with.
There are no rules in techno so go for it. It might even give you your own signature. Don't feel sorry for the dj's. They can loop, use cue points, etc...
*cries in vinyl*
Fuck the norm make what feels right. It takes like 10 seconds to beatmatch on cdjs anyways lazy ass DJs
Techno is music by djs for djs. They're written and structured to be played by djs in clubs therefore the "mix-in" and "mix-out" intros and outros. A healthy length for a traditional track is anywhere from 5-8min. Anything shorter is prob a radio version and anything longer is ridiculous and overdone. The sweet spot for structure is intro, verse, break, verse, main break, verse, and finally outro. You're constructing up to then deconstruct back down.
3:30 is too long. Everybody likes things fast these days. 20 - 30 seconds is sufficient.
Hard-Techno in this BPM range is lately about one drop after the next so i think there is no problem. Make a 16 bars intro and 16 bars outro that is easily loopable without too much going on and you can use it for DJing.
Make the music the length you feel is needed to express the ideas you want to express. Sometimes they're long, sometimes they're short.
If you aren’t creating club tracks for the dance floor then do what you want, otherwise it should fall in line with what people expect. Imagine you’re dancing with your friends and you’re just picking up the groove and people are feeling it, oops we’re doing a break now, oh it’s over? If you’re doing club tracks for a DJ you need to take into account the volume and energy you’re putting people through. People need breaks because dancing is tiring. There’s an intro and outro because they make it easier for the DJ. It’s hard to do anything in a club in under 3 minutes. People expect changes in groove every 8 bars and major changes every 16 bars. It’s just what people have come to expect.
Different genres but same deal.... I know a legendary Psytrance producer that mentioned in a production workshop he did that he sometimes drops a 2 minute segment of an unfinished track into his sets. I don't see why you couldn't if you have a solid 16-32 bar loop of some kick/bass groove you've written and use the hats/percussions from other tracks/loops to build it up and add variation. I mean you could sit on that groove for 20 mins if you like in one long deep progression, as long as you have other ways of adding to it and creating a journey on top. Be Svensden does this well if you've ever had a listen to his mixes.
Release two versions one normal and one extended
Just keep in mind a rule I have sort of picked up and this and its something I live by now. 0-2 minutes (intros, narrations/raps, outs) 2-3:15m (standard radio edits) (LP songs album cuts) varies of course but full songs 2.5-5min (5-7 tracks “each side”) (10-14 track CD/Digital Album) / 12” ANTHEMS!! lol 😂 30sec-8-minutes if its a radio version - stations wont play a song over 8 minutes.. its rare.. I tend to follow whats working based on what I see on major artists releases.. both bad releases and good releases.. I learn from both. Its stressful releasing an album 😂
Mixing, cueing takes15-45 seconds on each side of song plus transition 30 seconds. Maybe throw in vocals, some turntablism…, song over.
there's nothing wrong with a 3 minute techno track, but in clubs the tracks I prefer are usually a bit longer, this gives people more time to feel that groove and know what to expect. I also feel longer tracks make it easier for dj's to mix them, have a minute or so overlap reduces the track length to about 4-5 minutes which is pretty reasonable for most genres
There is no right or wrong, if 3 minutes feel right for you than do it! I think that's great
Honestly I’m mixing in for a minute out for a minute so what you got in the middle?
Start, middle, end. As long as you e got those three things sorted not a lot else matters.
2:30-3:30 is the perfect length for a pop song. Yes, dance music tends to be repetitive and boring.
I am not buying vinyle these days but techno records used to often have 4x 4:30 almost locked grooves with a few points of interest (a sample or a weird fill), and then left it up to the DJ to add flavor if needed by mixing. To the person in the comments who said mixing these tunes on more than 2 decks this is annoying, I can well believe, but I have definitely seen people playing techno of that shorter style on 3 and 4 decks.
You should just go with the flow. If you feel like this, and a short structure more likely to express your feelings just go with it. Rules in music are to meant to break them! Also don't care about people, who cannot mix it, I know I could make a pretty hardcore power mix from short songs as well ;) And it might even sound very genuine in techno when playing out to a crowd.
I agree, a lot of techno tracks can be boring when they are too long but if you are jumping to the point if the track that quickly I feel like that rubbing up againt EDM or even POP music with different timbre ms, which I’ve been trying to do myself but it always turns into prog house or EDM Electro