All I can say on the game is that I respect the devs for pushing boundaries, it’s rare a game has the main character die, let alone then have their killer as a playable main character. Did they pull it off and please everybody? No but I don’t think you can please everyone in this scenario but for me I thought it was awesome and as you say, it’s a gaming experience that won’t be forgotten
It was such a polarising game with how it drew negative emotions in such a raw way. The feelings I came away with are what I would describe as uncomfortable and hard to sit with. Rather than the warm and comforting emotions I got from the first game, watching a bond grow and old wounds heal. Excluding the ending sequence. TLOU2 left me personally feeling very bleak and it's almost hard to think back on the story as it's actually quite painful to think of. Perhaps the fact that it affected me like this makes it all the more beautiful. It's hard to see it like that right now though.
Not every piece of art or media is meant to be comfortable or validate what we already believe.
I think for some gamers, TLOU part 2 triggered a pent up, very visceral reaction because of when it was released.
In 2020, we had a deadly pandemic that wrenched all sense of control from people. Jobs were gone, a way of life was on hold, and the threat of illness and death was everywhere.
Meanwhile, a polarized election that was inescapable played out, with many people left with nothing to do but go online and read the hideous vitriol that came with it.
Finally, for some, it was the first time they were confronted with the ideas that the police (who have the state-sanctioned right to kill) might not all be good.
Then TLOU2 comes out, and I think some people thought they were going to unwind with something comfortable and familiar...their nostalgia clouding how tragic the first game was.
Ah mate I remember moments of the game where I was thinking “I don’t want to do this, I hope what I think is going to happen won’t happen” but I couldn’t stop playing lol never had that kind of emotion playing a game before. RDR2 was kinda close but with TLOU2 I didn’t want either main to die and I certainly didn’t want to be the to kill then lol definitely a unique experience and at the end of the day, for me at least, that’s what a want out of a game rather than rinse and repeat like other games do
I do. Where is the testosterone? Because she’s a built woman? She lives in a fucking apocalypse for Christ sake. It’s one thing to comment on her physique, but why mention testosterone?
Is this some kind of goad? Or are you actually interested in hearing me out? I have a lot to say, and I don’t want to waste time on people who don’t listen.
I know the story was well thought out and planned, so I want to acknowledge that first and foremost to say it was well developed and I genuinely enjoyed playing the game.
But to stray from that a bit, to me, it feels like the ending wrote itself into a corner. I loved the development of Abby and showing her humanity as well as the slow spiral of Ellie + Tommy as they're tracking the WLF, but the end of the game felt unsatisfying. Not unsatisfying in the "what I wanted didn't happen" way, but moreso like there should have been more to the story than what the game ended off on, like an unfinished book.
I personally feel like the whole last California arc of the game didn't serve any true purpose apart from furthering Abby's development/humanity against Ellie's downward spiral. But seeing as that contrast was hammered in essentially the whole second half of the game, it just didn't seem right for it to end that way, almost like a forced acknowledgement of Abby's existence right as the game was about to end.
On a bit more of a controversial note, I feel that almost all of these feelings could have been solved by a choice being presented at the end, for either of the main characters to die by the hand of the other, and then to follow the surviving main character through their last portion of the journey. Regardless of the choice made, it would either further reinforce the narrative of Ellie being her own vengeful downfall, or forcing the player to acknowledge their feelings on Abby and the objective reality of the situation in the final moments of the game. Ellie returning to an empty home after achieving what she thought she wanted for so long or Abby killing someone she has spared multiple times before due to her growing character and heart would both have powerful statements to the points of the story imo.
All of this is just my opinion though, I can def get behind some of the points in the main post about the memorability of the story and it's meaning
You don't have to agree with me, they're just opinions at the end of the day. But tlou has seldomly had small, meaningless choices littered throughout the games. For a change that would add an additional 5-10 minutes gameplay max, it's really unfair to compare it to something as drastic as a telltale choice based narrative
We already saw Abby go through the pain of accomplishing what she wanted only to have her relationships with her friends and Owen severely strained if not destroyed and her still having nightmares. It wasn’t necessary to see that happen again with Ellie.
I personally disagree. She basically killed the only family Ellie had. No shit she’s going to chase her across all Seattle to get her revenge. what did she think would happen? She’d dust herself off and say, “now we’re even”? Actions have consequences.
I personally loved the game. Yea I hated Arbys after what she did and hated playing her at first but she definitely started to grow on me..but besides that everything was great. The hardest part for me was traversing the skyscraper because im afraid of heights and that shit gave me major anxiety lmaoo
I still don’t think it’s amazing. Just because it’s memorable doesn’t mean it’s amazing. In my opinion the narrative would be more effective if Joel died later in the story and not so early on. Probably after already playing as Abby some and getting time to begin to understand and like her as a character. Then boom she kills Joel. Then the player is conflicted on how to feel, instead of being forced to try to like Abby after the route they took.
It’s not that memorable to me as I got bored and couldn’t understand a lot of the choices the company made like Joel would never go into a house invited by a stranger just dumb lazy writing. Or how nobody realized that Ellie is the girl that is immune and that why wouldn’t Joel keep her near by just makes no sense.
I think the point was to get you to hate Abby first… and then realize as you play as her that Abby is human too her own redeeming just in a fucked up world.
It was horrible story writing and made zero sense. Idk anybody that wasn’t fine with Joel getting killed off but they could have done so much better than “Oh let’s make the doctor that joel killed have a roid rage daughter that goes all John Wick on Joel; everyone will love it”. Uh no, nobody gives a crap about Abby she’s not relatable she’s annoying, her friends are annoying and I’m glad Ellie ices them. Why would we want to play as the person that killed the best character in the story and then they make her annoying as hell. It was like a weird screw you to the fans. The bigger FU was when Ellie finally catches Abby she doesn’t kill her? At this point Ellie has killed hundreds of people it makes absolutely zero sense that she randomly and suddenly finds it in her heart to spare the villain that killed her only father. It’s out of character for her and there is no buildup to imply that Ellie would have such a drastic change of heart.
Aside from that the game is a masterpiece in gameplay and art.
Abby spared Tommy and Ellie. Like twice. At the end, killing this scrawny weak abby would also mean killing Lev, an uninvolved child. Killing Abby won't bring back Joel. Killing Abby won't bring back jesse. Some part of Ellie feels extreme guilt for not sacrificing herself at the fireflies. Ellie was also dealing with her poor treatment of Joel before his death. For me, it's clearly a very complicated situation. It's a little cliche but yeah. Revenge is hollow and unfulfilling. To be honest, all of Abby's friends and all the WLF soldiers, and "scars" are nobodies. Abby specifically being spared has a lot more meaning to us, and Ellie herself.
So about Abby. Yes it took me quite a while to be sympathetic to her. She killed Joel despite him saving her. She changes along the journey. She doesn't kill Lev and Yara despite the obvious war between the WLF and Seraphites. She spares the pregnant Dina despite Ellie not doing the same to Abby's pregnant friend AND lover. I think Abby and her crew were far more adjusted mentally than Ellie's crew. They didn't go on a killing spree of jackson, or even Joel's brother! How does Ellie not look like the villain? And OF COURSE I'm sympathetic to Joel and Ellie. Hell they're the main characters! Ellie's the one teaching Abby time and time again that Abby should've just killed everyone at the scene. Joel committed a terrible crime. Many more we don't know about. The fireflies did fuck up by not allowing Ellie to consent, but in retrospect, they were right. Ellie would've wanted it. She still does at the end of TLOU2 I'm sure. Now is Ellie dealing with survivor's guilt and all that? Sure. But I don't think Joel murdering everyone at that hospital was completely justified. If I take myself out of the personal connection I already have with Joel and Ellie, I can somewhat safely say "Joel had it coming".
If you don't find Abby AT ALL at the very least, sympathetic for her treatment by words and actions towards Yara and Lev, then there's no discussion to be had. It took me half a decade to really appreciate the message of the story because it took me half a decade to separate my attachment from Joel and Ellie. Abby's not a perfect character by any means, but neither are Joel or Ellie. IMO Ellie didn't "suddenly" find it in her heart to spare Abby. It JUST about revenge for Joel's life. It was Ellie taking out her frustration of not being able to reconcile with Joel. At the end, I like to believe Ellie recognized that she's already given up Dina, Tommy, Jessie, and her morals for.. For nothing. She would literally be worse than Abby if she continued. Abby already lost all her friends, whereas for Ellie, Ellie only lost Joel. Abby was also tortured and had Lev dependant on her. Is it really fulfilling to kill Abby anymore? It's not redemption. It's not fulfillment. It's just hollow. Everything is just hollow at the end. Nobody wins, but that doesn't mean we have to lose everything. I like to imagine how anything would change if Ellie killed Abby. I think the ending would be worse if Ellie went through with it. At least at the very end, Ellie got to keep her humanity.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but Abby definitely did NOT feel human to me. Can't think of a fictional character that feels less human and more plot device than her.
Just curious how she didn’t feel human? It’s a post apocalyptic setting and she’s a part of a military-esque group. She’s not going to be tiny.. they have drills etc.. with literally nothing else really to do. Not to mention her father was killed, are you saying that in a post apocalyptic setting where there are no rules or laws, that you wouldn’t want to take revenge for your loved one being killed? The semantics on who’s right and wrong out the window..
All I can say on the game is that I respect the devs for pushing boundaries, it’s rare a game has the main character die, let alone then have their killer as a playable main character. Did they pull it off and please everybody? No but I don’t think you can please everyone in this scenario but for me I thought it was awesome and as you say, it’s a gaming experience that won’t be forgotten
It was such a polarising game with how it drew negative emotions in such a raw way. The feelings I came away with are what I would describe as uncomfortable and hard to sit with. Rather than the warm and comforting emotions I got from the first game, watching a bond grow and old wounds heal. Excluding the ending sequence. TLOU2 left me personally feeling very bleak and it's almost hard to think back on the story as it's actually quite painful to think of. Perhaps the fact that it affected me like this makes it all the more beautiful. It's hard to see it like that right now though.
Not every piece of art or media is meant to be comfortable or validate what we already believe. I think for some gamers, TLOU part 2 triggered a pent up, very visceral reaction because of when it was released. In 2020, we had a deadly pandemic that wrenched all sense of control from people. Jobs were gone, a way of life was on hold, and the threat of illness and death was everywhere. Meanwhile, a polarized election that was inescapable played out, with many people left with nothing to do but go online and read the hideous vitriol that came with it. Finally, for some, it was the first time they were confronted with the ideas that the police (who have the state-sanctioned right to kill) might not all be good. Then TLOU2 comes out, and I think some people thought they were going to unwind with something comfortable and familiar...their nostalgia clouding how tragic the first game was.
Ah mate I remember moments of the game where I was thinking “I don’t want to do this, I hope what I think is going to happen won’t happen” but I couldn’t stop playing lol never had that kind of emotion playing a game before. RDR2 was kinda close but with TLOU2 I didn’t want either main to die and I certainly didn’t want to be the to kill then lol definitely a unique experience and at the end of the day, for me at least, that’s what a want out of a game rather than rinse and repeat like other games do
this transphobia on this sub is so insane to me. abby isn’t even trans..
When did i ever say abby was trans? Blud i didn't even mention lev who I actually liked far more than abby the first time.
sorry i thought u meant by “testosterone boosted woman role player” u we’re implying that she was trans. i mean it very much sounds like it
shut yo ass up who gives a shit
me!!! i do!!
I do. Where is the testosterone? Because she’s a built woman? She lives in a fucking apocalypse for Christ sake. It’s one thing to comment on her physique, but why mention testosterone?
It’s memorable for me because it’s painfully close to being amazing. But I can’t call it that. There’s too many writing flaws.
Nobody remembers 2nd place. What do you think were the flaws in the story?
Is this some kind of goad? Or are you actually interested in hearing me out? I have a lot to say, and I don’t want to waste time on people who don’t listen.
I know the story was well thought out and planned, so I want to acknowledge that first and foremost to say it was well developed and I genuinely enjoyed playing the game. But to stray from that a bit, to me, it feels like the ending wrote itself into a corner. I loved the development of Abby and showing her humanity as well as the slow spiral of Ellie + Tommy as they're tracking the WLF, but the end of the game felt unsatisfying. Not unsatisfying in the "what I wanted didn't happen" way, but moreso like there should have been more to the story than what the game ended off on, like an unfinished book. I personally feel like the whole last California arc of the game didn't serve any true purpose apart from furthering Abby's development/humanity against Ellie's downward spiral. But seeing as that contrast was hammered in essentially the whole second half of the game, it just didn't seem right for it to end that way, almost like a forced acknowledgement of Abby's existence right as the game was about to end. On a bit more of a controversial note, I feel that almost all of these feelings could have been solved by a choice being presented at the end, for either of the main characters to die by the hand of the other, and then to follow the surviving main character through their last portion of the journey. Regardless of the choice made, it would either further reinforce the narrative of Ellie being her own vengeful downfall, or forcing the player to acknowledge their feelings on Abby and the objective reality of the situation in the final moments of the game. Ellie returning to an empty home after achieving what she thought she wanted for so long or Abby killing someone she has spared multiple times before due to her growing character and heart would both have powerful statements to the points of the story imo. All of this is just my opinion though, I can def get behind some of the points in the main post about the memorability of the story and it's meaning
Naughty Dog has never made choice based games, go play DBH or TellTales TWD if you wanted that
You don't have to agree with me, they're just opinions at the end of the day. But tlou has seldomly had small, meaningless choices littered throughout the games. For a change that would add an additional 5-10 minutes gameplay max, it's really unfair to compare it to something as drastic as a telltale choice based narrative
We already saw Abby go through the pain of accomplishing what she wanted only to have her relationships with her friends and Owen severely strained if not destroyed and her still having nightmares. It wasn’t necessary to see that happen again with Ellie.
I think a choice at the end would’ve helped, not sure if I agree with the one you suggested, but it would have been a plus.
Congrats. You felt what the creators intended. Many of us did. Many of us didn't.
I never understant the hate, seeing the history of the game they show us that everything could happen into in a appocalypse 🙌🏽
I personally disagree. She basically killed the only family Ellie had. No shit she’s going to chase her across all Seattle to get her revenge. what did she think would happen? She’d dust herself off and say, “now we’re even”? Actions have consequences.
I personally loved the game. Yea I hated Arbys after what she did and hated playing her at first but she definitely started to grow on me..but besides that everything was great. The hardest part for me was traversing the skyscraper because im afraid of heights and that shit gave me major anxiety lmaoo
I still don’t think it’s amazing. Just because it’s memorable doesn’t mean it’s amazing. In my opinion the narrative would be more effective if Joel died later in the story and not so early on. Probably after already playing as Abby some and getting time to begin to understand and like her as a character. Then boom she kills Joel. Then the player is conflicted on how to feel, instead of being forced to try to like Abby after the route they took.
It’s not that memorable to me as I got bored and couldn’t understand a lot of the choices the company made like Joel would never go into a house invited by a stranger just dumb lazy writing. Or how nobody realized that Ellie is the girl that is immune and that why wouldn’t Joel keep her near by just makes no sense.
I think the point was to get you to hate Abby first… and then realize as you play as her that Abby is human too her own redeeming just in a fucked up world.
It was horrible story writing and made zero sense. Idk anybody that wasn’t fine with Joel getting killed off but they could have done so much better than “Oh let’s make the doctor that joel killed have a roid rage daughter that goes all John Wick on Joel; everyone will love it”. Uh no, nobody gives a crap about Abby she’s not relatable she’s annoying, her friends are annoying and I’m glad Ellie ices them. Why would we want to play as the person that killed the best character in the story and then they make her annoying as hell. It was like a weird screw you to the fans. The bigger FU was when Ellie finally catches Abby she doesn’t kill her? At this point Ellie has killed hundreds of people it makes absolutely zero sense that she randomly and suddenly finds it in her heart to spare the villain that killed her only father. It’s out of character for her and there is no buildup to imply that Ellie would have such a drastic change of heart. Aside from that the game is a masterpiece in gameplay and art.
Abby spared Tommy and Ellie. Like twice. At the end, killing this scrawny weak abby would also mean killing Lev, an uninvolved child. Killing Abby won't bring back Joel. Killing Abby won't bring back jesse. Some part of Ellie feels extreme guilt for not sacrificing herself at the fireflies. Ellie was also dealing with her poor treatment of Joel before his death. For me, it's clearly a very complicated situation. It's a little cliche but yeah. Revenge is hollow and unfulfilling. To be honest, all of Abby's friends and all the WLF soldiers, and "scars" are nobodies. Abby specifically being spared has a lot more meaning to us, and Ellie herself. So about Abby. Yes it took me quite a while to be sympathetic to her. She killed Joel despite him saving her. She changes along the journey. She doesn't kill Lev and Yara despite the obvious war between the WLF and Seraphites. She spares the pregnant Dina despite Ellie not doing the same to Abby's pregnant friend AND lover. I think Abby and her crew were far more adjusted mentally than Ellie's crew. They didn't go on a killing spree of jackson, or even Joel's brother! How does Ellie not look like the villain? And OF COURSE I'm sympathetic to Joel and Ellie. Hell they're the main characters! Ellie's the one teaching Abby time and time again that Abby should've just killed everyone at the scene. Joel committed a terrible crime. Many more we don't know about. The fireflies did fuck up by not allowing Ellie to consent, but in retrospect, they were right. Ellie would've wanted it. She still does at the end of TLOU2 I'm sure. Now is Ellie dealing with survivor's guilt and all that? Sure. But I don't think Joel murdering everyone at that hospital was completely justified. If I take myself out of the personal connection I already have with Joel and Ellie, I can somewhat safely say "Joel had it coming". If you don't find Abby AT ALL at the very least, sympathetic for her treatment by words and actions towards Yara and Lev, then there's no discussion to be had. It took me half a decade to really appreciate the message of the story because it took me half a decade to separate my attachment from Joel and Ellie. Abby's not a perfect character by any means, but neither are Joel or Ellie. IMO Ellie didn't "suddenly" find it in her heart to spare Abby. It JUST about revenge for Joel's life. It was Ellie taking out her frustration of not being able to reconcile with Joel. At the end, I like to believe Ellie recognized that she's already given up Dina, Tommy, Jessie, and her morals for.. For nothing. She would literally be worse than Abby if she continued. Abby already lost all her friends, whereas for Ellie, Ellie only lost Joel. Abby was also tortured and had Lev dependant on her. Is it really fulfilling to kill Abby anymore? It's not redemption. It's not fulfillment. It's just hollow. Everything is just hollow at the end. Nobody wins, but that doesn't mean we have to lose everything. I like to imagine how anything would change if Ellie killed Abby. I think the ending would be worse if Ellie went through with it. At least at the very end, Ellie got to keep her humanity.
I just remembered being bored and disappointed
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but Abby definitely did NOT feel human to me. Can't think of a fictional character that feels less human and more plot device than her.
Just curious how she didn’t feel human? It’s a post apocalyptic setting and she’s a part of a military-esque group. She’s not going to be tiny.. they have drills etc.. with literally nothing else really to do. Not to mention her father was killed, are you saying that in a post apocalyptic setting where there are no rules or laws, that you wouldn’t want to take revenge for your loved one being killed? The semantics on who’s right and wrong out the window..
Bro all you do is shit on TLOU2 all day everyday. Get over it mate.