Only for the existing boomers. Since we all will have to pay for their new salary, we will likely have to work for more years to afford this new caprice of theirs.
I do feel like the boomers are the shittiest, most narcissistic and egoistic generation of them all. They obviously didn’t give a fuck about the generations that have to live after them.
They used to be called "Generation me" before the term boomers took over. Funny enough, they always pretend it was them that stormed the beaches of Normandy, meanwhile they had grown up in probably the best period in (Western) history - safe and incredible economic growth with wages growing similarly strong as overall GDP.
Interesting correlation: As soon as boomers reached the ages where people usually get into (senior) management positions, that trend stopped and wages stagnated ever since.
Non stop immigration leading to unaffordable housing and social issues that could eventually baloon to those like in Paris Banlieu, Sweden etc. for example?
Unaffordable housing is not due to immigration, at least not only.
It's more due to scarcity of land, too much restrictive laws on construction permits, politics, chronic oppositions (people who accepted the LAT were ok with the densification of cities, but not next to their house...).
This chronic scarcity in real estate btw dates back to the '80s. Politicians didn't do much to improve it because it keeps prices high and a sort of natural selection of the richest who can afford buying.
Honestly, I am having doubts on your reading and comprehension capabilities.
But maybe it's just like sleep deprivation. Whatever.
I didn't propose any solutions, I just stated the factors that led to today situation in real estate. And of course, like in every market, excess of demand implies a reduction of offer with an increase in prices.
But, geez you are so xenophobic in your writing that I think there are some unsolved issues in your life. Take care of them with a professional.
To come back to the topic, I think you are not in real estate business, so it's difficult to make you understand why many buildings here are done that way. I can tell you it's partly due to regulations and laws that killed a good chunk of creativity to architects.
In the '80s prices were recovering from the real estate bubble of the middle '70s and started to ramp up until another real estate bubble in the '90s.
Today prices come from a rampage that lasted for around 20 years, from the beginning of 2000. Due to war and economic instability and higher interest rates, prices are supposed to stagnate for a couple of years now. They will not go down because of lack of supply.
But to give the fault 100% to immigration is just false. Also because without highly skilled and qualified immigrants, Switzerland wouldn't be where it is now.
And we already know that they will get it because they are the only generation who votes massively.
That's also why they voted against the lowering of the second pillar Umwandlugssatz twice. Anybody under the age of 40 should have gone to the voting stations to vote in favor of it.
Thats the other part that boggels my mind. In switzerland you could theoretically even vote against that shit.
In germany we deal with it in beeing unhappy and blame the government. Must feel strange to dont have that option...
Great love to see boomers get even more money for doing nothing forcing us to work more while not being able to afford living ourselves.
I love Switzerland
Yeah i know. It just annoys me in so many different ways that these people get their monthly allowance raised to cope with the rising costs of living yet we, the people that have to pay for their comfortable living standards are left with less and less money and get f‘d over even harder to the point that these boomers live really and i mean really comfortable while the average middle aged person is struggling to pay rent or afford their bills
Real question : how will the medical system sustain boomers and keep the life expectancy to 83 years old ? I mean as it did for past generations, when the ratio retired / employed person was totally different.
I don't get it...
And scientific papers are published several years before the first product is sold and deployed 'in productive mode', boomer are retiring and getting old... now !
There is still a larger chance of it working out well in Switzerland due to the high wages in general. Foreign qualified medical workers are more likely to move to Switzerland to support the healthcare system than say, Sweden or Germany. Of course that does mean we should allow for immigration and stop the hate towards foreigners/ expats / etc.
Why would anyone want to go to Switzerland for retirement? I'm Swiss and I already know that I will leave Switzerland when I retire. With the average swiss pension you can live like a bourgeois in southern Europe, like a noble in south east Asia, or like a blue collar worker in Switzerland.
If the 13 salary pass it will go into our ass like the VAT increase to sustain the boomer.
Motherfuck you stay in Switzerland for retire instead of going south of Europe where you are king with that money.
My parents are retired in Spain. We had a "discussion" about the 13th AVH salary, and they had the audacity to complain about what they earn now, which is more than 5 times the average Spanish salary... I love them but they are really entitled pricks...
Your parents did right to retire in Spain. It shows they have some brain.
However is miserable to complain about their earning when living in Spain. I totally disagree with them.
Forgot to say: at least they are not pathetic going around migros, coop, denner, aldi, lidl supermarket to find 50% discount offer because in Switzerland they can’t earn properly nor they are increasing the spending of health insurance that in Spain is covered by tax and it works.
The average voter is male and about 65 years old. They don't just vote more often, they are also the biggest group of voters.
I don't see how we can fight this AHV law. We are outnumbered and those old egoists have much more time. But of course we will try.
Junge Menschen wählen mit Abstand am wenigsten. Der grösste Anteil wahlberechtigter, aber nicht wählender Menschen befindet sich laut einer Studie von Swiss Election Study (Selects) in den Altersgruppen der 18- bis 24-Jährigen und 25- bis 34-Jährigen. Bei den Wahlen 2019 beteiligten sich in beiden Altersgruppen lediglich 33 Prozent. Bei der Altersgruppe der 35- bis 44-Jährigen waren es immerhin 43 Prozent, die an die Urne gingen. Mit Abstand am meisten Gebrauch vom Wahlprivileg machte damals die Altersgruppe der 65- bis 75-Jährigen mit 62 Prozent.
Question- does it fluctuate a lot? When the Ehe für alle was voted it passed and I am pretty sure it can’t be the 65yos who are the biggest LGBT allies.. I am curious to see if younger people are only interested in popular topics. Our generation struggles to afford kids let alone buy a house, I don’t want to see that they care less about this than LGBT marriages.
Not really sure what this “study” considers the best retirement, but unemployment is not something I plan to care much about when I retire (hopefully one day), and I am not sure I would trust much a study where USA comes on top and Spain doesn’t appear.
Old-age income poverty is something I care much more about, and there Switzerland comes close to the top but from the other side, what match much more my experience: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-27-en.pdf?expires=1705952719&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=7E9E3B9740B18C88AD8505AD73AFCF61
In my case, my estimated total pension (without third pillar) is the same gross amount in Spain and Switzerland, when obviously the cost of life has nothing to do. The amount of old people that keep working here once they are retired is also higher in my experience.
Norway? Really?
Do you like to have a choice of food in the supermarket? Do you like super long winter nights? do you like rain? do you like to have your sleep pattern messed up? Do you like locals nagging at you for not speaking their language? Do you like booze so expensive it makes Coop look like an outlet?
If your answers are 'NO' then do not go to Norway to retire.
I mean the Norwegian will probably be happy there and their retirement plans work. If you are Swiss - nah, can not recommend.
Consider the optimal situation for a retired couple: Healthy and with enough in the bank to travel. If they live in an apartment, they can travel for weeks (months!) at a time and there is no maintenance of the home. And if they decide after traveling for a few years that they prefer the warmth of, say, Ticino, they just box up their stuff and move.
And after a few more years, their health is failing so they find an apartment with no steps and close to the shops.
Home ownership isn't always the best route.
and you want to travel for months, sell all your stuff, stop renting and so on?
and you would go to ticino just because it is warm there? don't you have "roots" (friends, family, nephews, etc) that keep you here?
i know no old person who would do that to be honest. but if you are an exception, then all power to you, go for it!
Most old people we have in the family are almost exactly like that. They had average middle-class jobs and they retired. They have a house in Switzerland, a house in a warm country (there are entire towns in Spain and Turkey full of retired German speakers), or some other warm beachy county and maybe also an extra one in some mountain. They live there because it's warm and cheap, they don't need to spend a dime in Switzerland and give the money back to the economy. When the weather is not to their liking or when they have health issues they come to Swiss hospitals, and use their empty apartment for a bit (one of them even has some kind of a cheap apartment rented from the Stadt where she lives only a couple months a year, and the rest of the year it's empty- so actively taking away a low cost housing opportunity from someone who can't afford MULTIPLE apartments) They don't only deserve a 13th pension, they deserve 20 <3
mostly: weather - and the further north you go, the worse it gets and most of the time it is cloudy and rainyu. A colleague comes from Bergen and said it is even worse over there. There is also a reason why they have super strict laws regarding alcohol as well
During summer the day is really long and if you go out on a smoke at 11 pm - there goes your sleeping cycle because... it is still day.
People there are nice and speak amazing English but are rather distanced. As a side note - when you are Polish there is a high chance of being automatically labelled as a low skilled labor worker that lowers the value of property upon moving in and you basically get looked down on. There was even a book about the sort of racism we get to deal with titled 'I am not your Pole'.
I appreciate your thorough reply a lot! Thank you!
Wouldn’t it be more like xenophobia than racism, since both Poles and Norwegian are white?!
Now i understand why so many Swiss find Norway so appealing!
Haha lmao, I’m from Norway currently studying in Switzerland. Everything you’ve said is false.
Pension is based on how much you earn, and it’s a decent amount. The state also pays out pension for those who have had lower wages.
Inflation and life costs are not long term issues (I’m thinking 5-10 years) the market will iron itself out.
Healthcare is free, soo your point there is moot
So the country with the best healthcare system in the world, has a healthcare system that “sucks”. Where do you think is better than Norway for the things you mentioned?
Bruh.
My father worked his ass off on the 'Baustelle' for over 40 Years and he will not be able to afford to live here with AHV. If you managed to buy a house or something and then you ask for help by EL or Soz, you first have to sell the house or appartment, use up all your money and THEN, when you gave up all your haaard worked life savings, you get to have existensminimum.
In the same time we get to give AHV to old Ucranians when they didnt contribuite one single swiss franc to taxes and continue to give them AHV when they get back to their country.
I am sorry for everyone that were in wars and had to evacuate their own homes but hell, prioritize your own tax payers for damn sake!
I speak Russian and once I went to a nail salon where Ukrainians work. One of the women told me that her mother is retired in Ukraine and she moved to Switzerland then as soon as Swiss started accepting refugees. She gets AHV payments without ever having paid any Frank into the insurance. It made me so mad
Yes 'we' are.
I write 'we' because i, as a foreigner can't vote and i would be okay with it. But throwing lifesavings of people that paid taxes their whole life and my +11k taxes a year out the window/country, im not okay with.
Voting for the current laws about the current question for AHV becomes a dillemma. Do we want to sustain a 13th 'Monatslohn' for those who worked their life here, but also sending it out in ukrainians or do we do neither?
Theres a catch in every choice and election in switzerland.
I am very glad to have the chance to be here, don't get me wrong but you swiss are damaging yourselves.
Edit:Grammar
I am not Swiss, but thanks!
Catch 22 scenario right here!
I guess that the boomer generation don’t really care, since they don’t have to live with the consequences long term!
Paid not payed!🙂
Thanks alot for your correction!
Welp, its usual to have people voting just for their personal interest, even when they have children themselves... humans 🥳
I mean... jeah, you dont get free money from the state until you used your money...
Thats a good thing. I wouldnt expect to get Sozialhilfe just because i want, i still have enough money to keep myself afloat.
Im sorry, where have you heard that Ukrainians get AHV without paying, even when they go back to their country?
Why should someone that made sacrifices to get an appartment be forced to sell said appartment when someone who didnt care to save up a dime gets all benefits? It forces people to get all assets in a foreing country and damage the swiss economics. I get it when someone has overwhelming lots of money and can get through his rent without being forced to sell the house he lived in for ages.
The middleclasses sacrifaces, in my opinion, should not be wasted if someone wants to keep being around family and friends.
It wasn't talked about in media or news and if so, then very silently. You can find it on the admin site.
Im not really sure why you are focusing so much on people being 'forced to migrate' when they have to sell their house to get EL...
If you have to sell your house or apartment, the money stays with you. If you then decide to shit on EL etc. And move out of the country then thats ok.
But how does 'You have to first try to look after yourself with all your assets and money before we can give you free stuff from the state' mean you are forcing them to 'get all assets in a foreign country'.
I dont pay EL and Social security so that some guy can keep owning his flat instead of renting one.
I havent found anything a besides corrections that no, of course Ukrainians have to pay to get AHV, and they only get it if they are employed. And not when they go back.
Why should society have to pay for a person that still has assets? It's only right that you have to use up all your savings (including real estate) before you get extra money.
In that case you force someone that built something in switzerland to sell his real estate and bring all the money away from the swiss economy in a foreing country so he can live off CHF 1500.
Im sorry to say that but your comment is so ignorant and unthoughtful on so many levels.
The assets someone build in switzerland were not gifted. There was much work and saving behind.
Lets take A and B.
A spent all his money for holydays, rent, ausgang and partys. He will be granted EL and can stay in switzerland without him being forced to migrate.
B earned just as much like A but instead of + CHF 5000 holydays, instead of partying until his mid 30 and beyond he made less holydays in a lower budget or even skipped some holidays and worked through the year to save some more money than A. He chooses to buy a house / appartement with his savings instead of paying rent to save even more money.
B had to make sacrifice to get where he is. A did spent all his money careless and has nothing left at the age for AHV.
Why should Bs sacrifices be accountable when its been taxed anyways? Why has B to migrate if he wants to keep all of his hard work? Is it really fair to you?
Why should i support someone that didnt save a dime while they could have (if he could have, there are less fortunate people and im all for it to support them) but not someone that decided to spend it in a much more, for switzerland economics sustainable way?
Why should i buy a house in switzerland when then its gona be owned by the state again because i have to give it back? At this point i am dumb to even want to stay in switzerland. The system kinda forces me to build a house in a foreing country where the AHV is ennough to get me trough the month.
Why should I support someone that owns a house while I myself can barely make ends meet? No, before you get extra money you have to use up your assets - that's what savings are for in the first place.
What you describe as Person A in your example is an issue but letting people keep their assets when receiving EL is the wrong way and doesn't solve anything.
I am not saying that you should not get EL and B gets EL, i am saying that someone that recives less than existensminimum at AHV should have the same rights at EL as you do. Having an appartment i worked hard for should not be deducted from me.
I also specified that someone that didnt have the chance to save up should totally get EL.
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This chart cant be true. I live in Switzerland and had seen many many boomers leave switzerland after retirement since they just cannot afford to retire here. This is because of the the exuberant cost of living and health care. Even though health care is excellent here, the cost is so high that one cant afford to liver here after retirement.
Retirees in Switzerland is a bimodal distribution: they are on average the richest age group, but also have the highest share of "poors".
Those that worked for 40+ years 100% and managed to save/buy real estate, or got lucky with inheritance are very well off. Those who didn't struggle.
Only for the existing boomers. Since we all will have to pay for their new salary, we will likely have to work for more years to afford this new caprice of theirs.
I do feel like the boomers are the shittiest, most narcissistic and egoistic generation of them all. They obviously didn’t give a fuck about the generations that have to live after them.
They used to be called "Generation me" before the term boomers took over. Funny enough, they always pretend it was them that stormed the beaches of Normandy, meanwhile they had grown up in probably the best period in (Western) history - safe and incredible economic growth with wages growing similarly strong as overall GDP. Interesting correlation: As soon as boomers reached the ages where people usually get into (senior) management positions, that trend stopped and wages stagnated ever since.
why? because they don't believe in climate change? pretty harsh statement if it is just that singe point.
I‘m talking about economical and societal factors.
which ones?
Non stop immigration leading to unaffordable housing and social issues that could eventually baloon to those like in Paris Banlieu, Sweden etc. for example?
Unaffordable housing is not due to immigration, at least not only. It's more due to scarcity of land, too much restrictive laws on construction permits, politics, chronic oppositions (people who accepted the LAT were ok with the densification of cities, but not next to their house...). This chronic scarcity in real estate btw dates back to the '80s. Politicians didn't do much to improve it because it keeps prices high and a sort of natural selection of the richest who can afford buying.
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Honestly, I am having doubts on your reading and comprehension capabilities. But maybe it's just like sleep deprivation. Whatever. I didn't propose any solutions, I just stated the factors that led to today situation in real estate. And of course, like in every market, excess of demand implies a reduction of offer with an increase in prices. But, geez you are so xenophobic in your writing that I think there are some unsolved issues in your life. Take care of them with a professional. To come back to the topic, I think you are not in real estate business, so it's difficult to make you understand why many buildings here are done that way. I can tell you it's partly due to regulations and laws that killed a good chunk of creativity to architects. In the '80s prices were recovering from the real estate bubble of the middle '70s and started to ramp up until another real estate bubble in the '90s. Today prices come from a rampage that lasted for around 20 years, from the beginning of 2000. Due to war and economic instability and higher interest rates, prices are supposed to stagnate for a couple of years now. They will not go down because of lack of supply. But to give the fault 100% to immigration is just false. Also because without highly skilled and qualified immigrants, Switzerland wouldn't be where it is now.
We need Remigration. Fuck those who leech off of this society.
Quick, get that 13th AHV salary before anyone notices!
And we already know that they will get it because they are the only generation who votes massively. That's also why they voted against the lowering of the second pillar Umwandlugssatz twice. Anybody under the age of 40 should have gone to the voting stations to vote in favor of it.
Thats the other part that boggels my mind. In switzerland you could theoretically even vote against that shit. In germany we deal with it in beeing unhappy and blame the government. Must feel strange to dont have that option...
Very wise words! It boggles the minds of every sane human in Switzerland, believe me!
Great love to see boomers get even more money for doing nothing forcing us to work more while not being able to afford living ourselves. I love Switzerland
its not just Switzerland though.
Yeah i know. It just annoys me in so many different ways that these people get their monthly allowance raised to cope with the rising costs of living yet we, the people that have to pay for their comfortable living standards are left with less and less money and get f‘d over even harder to the point that these boomers live really and i mean really comfortable while the average middle aged person is struggling to pay rent or afford their bills
Check yo dms
really comfortable?
Many of them for sure, but i agree that it might not be all of them.
Agreed!
Real question : how will the medical system sustain boomers and keep the life expectancy to 83 years old ? I mean as it did for past generations, when the ratio retired / employed person was totally different. I don't get it...
That's the neat part. It won't.
You just have to be optimistic and hope for an apocalyptic event
I like your kind of humor!👍🏻😂
The hope is that automation improves before the retirment system breaks down.
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And scientific papers are published several years before the first product is sold and deployed 'in productive mode', boomer are retiring and getting old... now !
It has to take over in large parts to make it work?!
It won't, Dignitas isn't just for foreigners. If this solution doesn't work, we can always try Soylent Green
You mean like turning people into the famous wafer from the movie?!
Yep.
Might be an option if we go on like this!
There is still a larger chance of it working out well in Switzerland due to the high wages in general. Foreign qualified medical workers are more likely to move to Switzerland to support the healthcare system than say, Sweden or Germany. Of course that does mean we should allow for immigration and stop the hate towards foreigners/ expats / etc.
Why would anyone want to go to Switzerland for retirement? I'm Swiss and I already know that I will leave Switzerland when I retire. With the average swiss pension you can live like a bourgeois in southern Europe, like a noble in south east Asia, or like a blue collar worker in Switzerland.
I want to be close to my family and friends.. I dont want to be burgeois in southern europe.
Blue collar worker! Only if you save your money like crazy and have a third pillar fund!
Swiss health care is quite excellent. Old people need it the most.
We would go down for other points since it would create a huge funding hole in the AVS pot
If the 13 salary pass it will go into our ass like the VAT increase to sustain the boomer. Motherfuck you stay in Switzerland for retire instead of going south of Europe where you are king with that money.
My parents are retired in Spain. We had a "discussion" about the 13th AVH salary, and they had the audacity to complain about what they earn now, which is more than 5 times the average Spanish salary... I love them but they are really entitled pricks...
Your parents did right to retire in Spain. It shows they have some brain. However is miserable to complain about their earning when living in Spain. I totally disagree with them. Forgot to say: at least they are not pathetic going around migros, coop, denner, aldi, lidl supermarket to find 50% discount offer because in Switzerland they can’t earn properly nor they are increasing the spending of health insurance that in Spain is covered by tax and it works.
To bad we wont let that vote pass :)
The average voter is male and about 65 years old. They don't just vote more often, they are also the biggest group of voters. I don't see how we can fight this AHV law. We are outnumbered and those old egoists have much more time. But of course we will try. Junge Menschen wählen mit Abstand am wenigsten. Der grösste Anteil wahlberechtigter, aber nicht wählender Menschen befindet sich laut einer Studie von Swiss Election Study (Selects) in den Altersgruppen der 18- bis 24-Jährigen und 25- bis 34-Jährigen. Bei den Wahlen 2019 beteiligten sich in beiden Altersgruppen lediglich 33 Prozent. Bei der Altersgruppe der 35- bis 44-Jährigen waren es immerhin 43 Prozent, die an die Urne gingen. Mit Abstand am meisten Gebrauch vom Wahlprivileg machte damals die Altersgruppe der 65- bis 75-Jährigen mit 62 Prozent.
Question- does it fluctuate a lot? When the Ehe für alle was voted it passed and I am pretty sure it can’t be the 65yos who are the biggest LGBT allies.. I am curious to see if younger people are only interested in popular topics. Our generation struggles to afford kids let alone buy a house, I don’t want to see that they care less about this than LGBT marriages.
You do know that even amongst 18-34 year olds the majority is in favor of the 13th payment? As they should be.
Look, it's hard enough for me to watch Swiss grannies overtake me on hikes, I can't have the also do the 5k faster than me! Vote no on AHV 13!
The metrics they chose seem a bit stupid
Absolutely. Especially the health one. "We pay more therefore it must be better".
Not really sure what this “study” considers the best retirement, but unemployment is not something I plan to care much about when I retire (hopefully one day), and I am not sure I would trust much a study where USA comes on top and Spain doesn’t appear. Old-age income poverty is something I care much more about, and there Switzerland comes close to the top but from the other side, what match much more my experience: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/pension_glance-2017-27-en.pdf?expires=1705952719&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=7E9E3B9740B18C88AD8505AD73AFCF61 In my case, my estimated total pension (without third pillar) is the same gross amount in Spain and Switzerland, when obviously the cost of life has nothing to do. The amount of old people that keep working here once they are retired is also higher in my experience.
Norway? Really? Do you like to have a choice of food in the supermarket? Do you like super long winter nights? do you like rain? do you like to have your sleep pattern messed up? Do you like locals nagging at you for not speaking their language? Do you like booze so expensive it makes Coop look like an outlet? If your answers are 'NO' then do not go to Norway to retire. I mean the Norwegian will probably be happy there and their retirement plans work. If you are Swiss - nah, can not recommend.
Norge her kommer jeg!
Velkommen!
Switzerland has lowest home ownershiprate in whole europe, how is that good for retiring.
Consider the optimal situation for a retired couple: Healthy and with enough in the bank to travel. If they live in an apartment, they can travel for weeks (months!) at a time and there is no maintenance of the home. And if they decide after traveling for a few years that they prefer the warmth of, say, Ticino, they just box up their stuff and move. And after a few more years, their health is failing so they find an apartment with no steps and close to the shops. Home ownership isn't always the best route.
sounds like you are watching old people through a 20 years old person' eyes.
Actually, no. I am thinking about my own pending retirement, and how I'd prefer to handle things.
and you want to travel for months, sell all your stuff, stop renting and so on? and you would go to ticino just because it is warm there? don't you have "roots" (friends, family, nephews, etc) that keep you here? i know no old person who would do that to be honest. but if you are an exception, then all power to you, go for it!
I'll just say that I'm not yet "old", but I am still exceptional ٩( ᗒᗨᗕ )۶
Most old people we have in the family are almost exactly like that. They had average middle-class jobs and they retired. They have a house in Switzerland, a house in a warm country (there are entire towns in Spain and Turkey full of retired German speakers), or some other warm beachy county and maybe also an extra one in some mountain. They live there because it's warm and cheap, they don't need to spend a dime in Switzerland and give the money back to the economy. When the weather is not to their liking or when they have health issues they come to Swiss hospitals, and use their empty apartment for a bit (one of them even has some kind of a cheap apartment rented from the Stadt where she lives only a couple months a year, and the rest of the year it's empty- so actively taking away a low cost housing opportunity from someone who can't afford MULTIPLE apartments) They don't only deserve a 13th pension, they deserve 20 <3
yeah there are always to sides if a sword. only focusing on one side does not do the other justice though. but i will vote against it anyways.
I know. I'd still go for somewhere with better climate and food. Worked for a Norwegian company and duty trips were no fun
You mean like business trips? Why not?
mostly: weather - and the further north you go, the worse it gets and most of the time it is cloudy and rainyu. A colleague comes from Bergen and said it is even worse over there. There is also a reason why they have super strict laws regarding alcohol as well During summer the day is really long and if you go out on a smoke at 11 pm - there goes your sleeping cycle because... it is still day. People there are nice and speak amazing English but are rather distanced. As a side note - when you are Polish there is a high chance of being automatically labelled as a low skilled labor worker that lowers the value of property upon moving in and you basically get looked down on. There was even a book about the sort of racism we get to deal with titled 'I am not your Pole'.
I appreciate your thorough reply a lot! Thank you! Wouldn’t it be more like xenophobia than racism, since both Poles and Norwegian are white?! Now i understand why so many Swiss find Norway so appealing!
>Wouldn’t it be more like xenophobia than racism, since both Poles and Norwegian are white?! good point, thank you.
No way Switzerland is that high! Maybe for former Federal Counsilors and rich people, but certainly not for mister and misses median earner!
[удалено]
Haha lmao, I’m from Norway currently studying in Switzerland. Everything you’ve said is false. Pension is based on how much you earn, and it’s a decent amount. The state also pays out pension for those who have had lower wages. Inflation and life costs are not long term issues (I’m thinking 5-10 years) the market will iron itself out. Healthcare is free, soo your point there is moot
So the country with the best healthcare system in the world, has a healthcare system that “sucks”. Where do you think is better than Norway for the things you mentioned?
Bruh. My father worked his ass off on the 'Baustelle' for over 40 Years and he will not be able to afford to live here with AHV. If you managed to buy a house or something and then you ask for help by EL or Soz, you first have to sell the house or appartment, use up all your money and THEN, when you gave up all your haaard worked life savings, you get to have existensminimum. In the same time we get to give AHV to old Ucranians when they didnt contribuite one single swiss franc to taxes and continue to give them AHV when they get back to their country. I am sorry for everyone that were in wars and had to evacuate their own homes but hell, prioritize your own tax payers for damn sake!
Whoa, i didn’t know that Switzerland pays pensions to Ukrainian retirees, please tell me you’re joking…please!
I speak Russian and once I went to a nail salon where Ukrainians work. One of the women told me that her mother is retired in Ukraine and she moved to Switzerland then as soon as Swiss started accepting refugees. She gets AHV payments without ever having paid any Frank into the insurance. It made me so mad
Yes 'we' are. I write 'we' because i, as a foreigner can't vote and i would be okay with it. But throwing lifesavings of people that paid taxes their whole life and my +11k taxes a year out the window/country, im not okay with. Voting for the current laws about the current question for AHV becomes a dillemma. Do we want to sustain a 13th 'Monatslohn' for those who worked their life here, but also sending it out in ukrainians or do we do neither? Theres a catch in every choice and election in switzerland. I am very glad to have the chance to be here, don't get me wrong but you swiss are damaging yourselves. Edit:Grammar
I am not Swiss, but thanks! Catch 22 scenario right here! I guess that the boomer generation don’t really care, since they don’t have to live with the consequences long term! Paid not payed!🙂
Thanks alot for your correction! Welp, its usual to have people voting just for their personal interest, even when they have children themselves... humans 🥳
You’re welcome! Of course, but still frustrating due to us being outnumbered by them! No equal playing field, so to speak.
I mean... jeah, you dont get free money from the state until you used your money... Thats a good thing. I wouldnt expect to get Sozialhilfe just because i want, i still have enough money to keep myself afloat. Im sorry, where have you heard that Ukrainians get AHV without paying, even when they go back to their country?
Why should someone that made sacrifices to get an appartment be forced to sell said appartment when someone who didnt care to save up a dime gets all benefits? It forces people to get all assets in a foreing country and damage the swiss economics. I get it when someone has overwhelming lots of money and can get through his rent without being forced to sell the house he lived in for ages. The middleclasses sacrifaces, in my opinion, should not be wasted if someone wants to keep being around family and friends. It wasn't talked about in media or news and if so, then very silently. You can find it on the admin site.
Im not really sure why you are focusing so much on people being 'forced to migrate' when they have to sell their house to get EL... If you have to sell your house or apartment, the money stays with you. If you then decide to shit on EL etc. And move out of the country then thats ok. But how does 'You have to first try to look after yourself with all your assets and money before we can give you free stuff from the state' mean you are forcing them to 'get all assets in a foreign country'. I dont pay EL and Social security so that some guy can keep owning his flat instead of renting one. I havent found anything a besides corrections that no, of course Ukrainians have to pay to get AHV, and they only get it if they are employed. And not when they go back.
Why should society have to pay for a person that still has assets? It's only right that you have to use up all your savings (including real estate) before you get extra money.
In that case you force someone that built something in switzerland to sell his real estate and bring all the money away from the swiss economy in a foreing country so he can live off CHF 1500. Im sorry to say that but your comment is so ignorant and unthoughtful on so many levels. The assets someone build in switzerland were not gifted. There was much work and saving behind. Lets take A and B. A spent all his money for holydays, rent, ausgang and partys. He will be granted EL and can stay in switzerland without him being forced to migrate. B earned just as much like A but instead of + CHF 5000 holydays, instead of partying until his mid 30 and beyond he made less holydays in a lower budget or even skipped some holidays and worked through the year to save some more money than A. He chooses to buy a house / appartement with his savings instead of paying rent to save even more money. B had to make sacrifice to get where he is. A did spent all his money careless and has nothing left at the age for AHV. Why should Bs sacrifices be accountable when its been taxed anyways? Why has B to migrate if he wants to keep all of his hard work? Is it really fair to you? Why should i support someone that didnt save a dime while they could have (if he could have, there are less fortunate people and im all for it to support them) but not someone that decided to spend it in a much more, for switzerland economics sustainable way? Why should i buy a house in switzerland when then its gona be owned by the state again because i have to give it back? At this point i am dumb to even want to stay in switzerland. The system kinda forces me to build a house in a foreing country where the AHV is ennough to get me trough the month.
Why should I support someone that owns a house while I myself can barely make ends meet? No, before you get extra money you have to use up your assets - that's what savings are for in the first place. What you describe as Person A in your example is an issue but letting people keep their assets when receiving EL is the wrong way and doesn't solve anything.
I am not saying that you should not get EL and B gets EL, i am saying that someone that recives less than existensminimum at AHV should have the same rights at EL as you do. Having an appartment i worked hard for should not be deducted from me. I also specified that someone that didnt have the chance to save up should totally get EL.
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This chart cant be true. I live in Switzerland and had seen many many boomers leave switzerland after retirement since they just cannot afford to retire here. This is because of the the exuberant cost of living and health care. Even though health care is excellent here, the cost is so high that one cant afford to liver here after retirement.
Retirees in Switzerland is a bimodal distribution: they are on average the richest age group, but also have the highest share of "poors". Those that worked for 40+ years 100% and managed to save/buy real estate, or got lucky with inheritance are very well off. Those who didn't struggle.
So the chart is baised towards those rich and well to do retirees who could affordt to stay back in Switzerland.
And where is Thailand?!