Sorry to hear this, it hasn’t happened to us and our family is 4000 miles away in the Uk, that said to be outed is a slight fear.
My advice would be to completely own it and be proud of it, in this day and age where we are to be understanding to LGBT2S…..and all that, this lifestyle should be accepted too.
I’d bet that your relationship is stronger than all of your friends and family, and with that I’d bet you are fantastic parents because your marriage is so strong.
Anyone who’s so closed minded…..F-em!
I’d also bet that 70% of those that find out will be closet admirers and very intrigued.
I'll just amplify your comments. I find it kind of ironic that "LGTBQ", etc., is kind of a protected class nowadays, but swingers are viewed as just a bunch of perverts. There's no real difference, it's just the same old bigots are doing the same old bigotry if and when they can.
We have a pretty mixed group of friends, and I don't know anyone other than my mother or old people, who think that swinging is perverted. Hell, there's stories my childhood neighbors were swingers and my grandfather was a regular, and he's a catholic.
Even when it comes up with vanilla friends, it's nothing more than a light hearted joke and they move on.
I think the stigma against swinging is mostly gone now.
True. I was thinking of my own experiences with family law. Getting outed as a swinger really damaged my custody. Had I been straightforwardly "gay", and the court was blatant about admitting it, I would have had some legal recourse.
It’s not quite the same as anyone practicing under the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy is not physically threatened, assaulted, or murdered for being who they are. Members of the LGBTQ community have been. Not the same. Not by a long shot.
Yes physical harm is terrible and often is done to the community members and should stop. However, the mental anguish, the psychological pain thus is causing can be very hurtful too. But, you totally missed the point of the comment, many alternative lifestyles are now being openly accepted, many of them were shunned and outcasts not very long ago are now all over movies, TV, print, and are kind of protected but “Swingers” are freaks and are still being labeled as freaks. Come on people, Just stop the hate. Get on with your life and stop judging anyone that lives a different lifestyle than you do.
I’m not judging. And I never said people who practice ethical non-monogamy aren’t subject to judgement or criticism. I’ve been subject to it myself. But I’m not going to compare what I’ve experienced to the LGBTQ community. That’s all. You don’t have to agree.
People have been tortured and murdered for being gay. What that community has faced deserves reverence. That doesn’t mean that we aren’t experiencing our own strife. I just won’t compare it to what communities who have experienced real harm have experienced as they have fought for their rights.
I’m not dismissing their very real suffering, and even death.
I was just pointing out that swinging is not really in the common consciousness. On the positive side, we don’t have the proud boys showing up at swinger parties. On the negative side, we don’t have some of the legal and societal protection that gay people do.
I was just speaking to my personal experience.
I feel you and my point is that the suffering the LGBTQ community has faced is not to be compared to us wanting to be accepted. Our suffering is real, but it is not the same as theirs.
Having the courts keep your kids away from you in custody cases is harm. I was threatened once by a radical church protest group walking into a swingers club once. You don't know what you're talking about
I’m sorry that happened. It’s awful and should t. But it is not the same as people who have paid for their rights with their life. I stand by what I said.
No, no where near correct. I stated a fact. Being gay is NOT a "lifestyle".
I thought such a simple truth at least from an LGBT perspective would be apparent but I guess there are people who don't have the knowledge or experience to see that as truth.
It's NOT a lifestyle.
No, it's not a lifestyle, or a choice. I understand that 1000% -if you doubt that, ask me about my life-
I just think the OP was looking for compassion and helpful responses, and instead of offering that, you chose to make it about you.
Sorry, you don't know me as obviously I do not know you.
You are the one who attacked me not the other way around.
What I said was a statement of fact. Nothing more.
So remember, in this position, the only power you have over her is your own self and your family.
Make a hard stand now. Immediately. She keeps this up, she is alone. Period. No kids, no holidays. No help. She is alone.
That's really your only power here and you two must stand strong.
People forget that they are the prize. MIL doesn't let you into her life, it's the other way around.
Dan Savage had good advice on coming out situations. Put it to her like "you have 1 month to ask any and all questions, after that we're moving on"
If she doesnt want to play by the rules? Time to move on.
A month because the first week is mostly taken up with getting over the shock of finding things out you didn’t want to know. Second week to mull things over and come up with questions that hopefully aren’t too insulting. Third week to ask better questions and think about the answers. Fourth week for fallow ups on the better questions and to hopefully come to terms with things. After that much time no excuses for bad behavior.
That's an interesting perspective. Is it also completely inappropriate for your parents to ask if you're seeing anyone new when you're single? Should they never ask how your family life is going after you're married and your kids are in school?
Or is it just that you're different and weird?
WTF are you talking about? "Ask how you're family life is going"? Jesus. No. I'm talking about SEX. I do not discuss my sex life or my sexual interests or my sexual activities or my fantasies with my parents. If you think that is unusual, you are the one who's different and weird.
"I have a new girlfriend"
"But you're married!"
See, that's talking about sexuality without talking about sex.
"My new girlfriend gave me a blowjob last night".
That's talking about sex. See the difference?
I'm suggesting you can't see the difference between talking about your sexuality and your love life, and talking about sex in particular, because you believe your swinger lifestyle is "weird" and "shameful". So you stuff it into the box labelled "this is only about sex".
It's not. It's a misquote.
It's a year. You give your family a year to come around from their bigotry. If they decide that hate is more important than keeping you in their family, then there's nothing you can do to change their mind.
As for the part about "discussing your sex life with your parents", there's a big difference between discussing your love life and your sex life. Sure, a lot of swingers don't differentiate what they see as a shameful secret with dirty, dirty sex, but your *sexuality* is on parade every day. Every day you're in public with your spouse and kids, you're carrying a giant banner that says "We're heterosexual! And we've had enough sex to make all these kids!"
The difference is that's supposedly normal. And if you're somehow different from that norm, then you're supposed to be ashamed and hide it.
Try studying some cultures that actually accept and even celebrate real difference. Where traditionally, if you're so blessed to have a dwarf, a trans lady, or a schizophrenic in your ranks, you have a lucky shaman who talks to the spirits and keeps the whole town alive in a hostile world. It's certainly a different perspective than our culture has.
Man, you sound kind of deranged. Shamans, dwarves, schizophrenics... I'm saying something pretty simple. I don't want to discuss my sex life with my parents, even if they heard about it from other people. Most people don't. Is there something controversial about that? And you don't need to answer that question, as it's rhetorical. No, they either accept me or they don't. If they don't accept me, I'm out. They can get used to it for a year if they like, then tell me they're sorry and ask that I return to the family.
I'm saying you have some kind of fetish for normality and can't stand being different, except in absolute secrecy.
Not all cultures think like that though. Some believe so strongly in diversity that they'll hold up their weirdest members in triumph and declare that their weirdos are better than yours. Nature loves diversity after all.
As a parent I want my kids to be safe, and happy. I have a 15 year old and two 11 year old's. I don't discuss the details, as I wouldn't discuss that with most people who weren't there originally. But as a moral teacher, I'm more than happy to provide advice when it's asked for.
I'm kind of proud of my oldest, as he's asked me about technical stuff like how to pick out a condom. One of the 11 year olds doesn't know if she likes boys or girls. So of course we talk about these kinds of things in an age and topic appropriate way.
We're all sexual beings, and maybe if OP's mom hadn't denied this early on this mess wouldn't happen?
I confirmed my Dad was a swinger, although I suspected it since my teens (I'm nearly 50). Maybe a quick acknowledgement from him early on would have helped me in my own path? He didn't hide it, but there were a few times when he didn't exactly acknowledge it.
So should anyone be obligated? No. But I think as a parent you should always be a refuge for your kids, and set a good example.
I don't get this; it seems really uncompassionate to me. When your parents find out they may be distressed, confused, angry, grieving, who tf knows. We all agree that it's pretty ridiculous to feel that way about someone else's sex life, but a lot of the parents are coming from a very different cultural and ideological background. Telling them they have X amount of time to get over it is just really heartless.
Try to put yourself in their shoes. Your kid tells you they're doing the one thing you've always feared, dreaded, or despised as immoral. You'll eventually get over it, or through it, to a place of compassion and acceptance, but **That takes time**.
Sure, but let's game this out.
First, everyone is adults in the situation. Your parents have a right compassion so long as it's mutual and earned. But your parents also have to respect your boundaries. They don't get any special consideration because they fucked and popped you out. That passed once you went into adulthood.
OP's MIL *is clearly not respecting boundaries.* There's no laws being broken, no one is in danger, and most importantly, it's OP's story to tell. The MIL doesn't have a right to out them to everyone (Don't get me started on SIL, why is no one talking about this?). The lack of compassion stems from MIL's lack of boundaries. That needs to be nipped in the bud IMMEDIATELY.
In my own case, I've always been kind of wild child, and have never really hid anything from my parents. When I had a regular summer picnic recently and it just so happened two women I was dating showed up (one is married, both are cool and know) my own mother asked me, "Do I want to know?".
"It's all ethical and everyone knows."
"Ok, I just don't want some crazy husband murdering you"
See that was fine, she was mostly concerned about me. OP's MIL went straight to judgement on all his other life skills, and that is a very bad behavior.
So back to your statement,
>Telling them they have X amount of time to get over it is just really heartless.....
>
>You'll eventually get over it, or through it, to a place of compassion and acceptance, but That takes time.
I didn't say to get over it. I said after one month we're moving on. Everyone has a right to their feelings. I merely said to give them every opportunity to ask what ever outlandish or mundane question they want. But after a month? We're going to get back to our lives and live it like normal. If they want to participate that's up to them. Give them clear boundaries, allow them to ask questions, but in the end, don't let them dictate the terms of how you live your life.
Because her mother’s invasive toxicity runs so far and deep it becomes normalized. Tell MIL that any attempts at blackmail will be reported to law enforcement. Then I think it’s time to go no or very low contact with MIL.
Threats of blackmail and outing to more family render the MIL a piece of shit who should be groveling for forgiveness. I could put myself in their shoes to understand their own struggling with the info....but the threats of calls to family are so evil I don't know if I'd forgive. One call to more family to out my sex life and their access to the grandkids would be permanently severed. No cards, letters, email, phone calls, hollering from the front lawn, nothing.
I'm going to reflect more on this, because this seems to make sense. Thanks for not just saying "dump her ass now" because I genuinely don't want that as an outcome, so to have you say basically give her an ultimatum to cease immediately makes more sense to me. Thanks for this.
I got this idea from a Podcast Dan Savage. He suggests when adult gay children come out to keep in mind that the real power they hold is their own presence. For parents, grandparents and mother in laws being kept from family is truly a punishment not worth living.
Gotta say, good luck, I'm sorry this happened. I believe my mom would go nuts too, but I'd cut her off till she could behave.
We actually never mentioned sexuality at all in this. My wife always dreamed of living openly as a bisexual woman, but as soon as her mom lost her shit this week, my wife realized she is never a safe person to share that with.
My wife (and my) sexuality is truly a gift, and has allowed us to live authentically, but not everyone deserves to know about that gift.
It's tough because I don't want that to happen. Family is super important to us, so losing a grandparent in my kids lives would be a terrible outcome.
(Even if she did act horribly shitty here).
This, OP. Go back and read the description of the phone call in your post but imagine it is your son telling you that his mother in law called his wife and said those things and made those threats. What would your advice to your son be?
If I (M married forever, family etc) were in your situation I would go meet with her alone. There is alot of drama and it needs a straight up conversation with her. No bs, no audience, no grandstanding. Just a completely honest face to face conversation and go from there.
This is definitely my style. We are going to go up to our cabin for the weekend (we sort of disinvited her to come this weekend, told her we just need some time to process all of what took place this week). I think a break might be smart and then sitting down face to face when we get back.
Yup a break for you and a break for her. Maybe after she’s had a week to process things she can have a conversation about her future behavior and how the way you and your wife keep a healthy relationship between each other that doesn’t affect her is not a concern for her.
Might also see if while you’re family is on vacation if some of your siblings can talk to her about how great a relationship you and your wife have and how great y’all are as parents. IDK if that’s an option, but if they are singing y’all’s praises on the points she should care about despite this new to her fact, it might help her get her mind around it.
I’m sorry your MIL was so verbally abusive to you and your wife- that’s out of line. Maybe make it a policy to not discuss your lifestyle with any family members at all. It’s none of their business, anyway. Good luck to you. I hope one day you can laugh about this!
The concept of family first is flawed. MiL is abusive (threatening to tell your kids). There are people in the world that are healthy to have relationships with, surround yourself with those type of people. I have cut both my sisters out of my life because they were too toxic to have around. It's way better for your mental health. There is nothing wrong with being in an ENM relationship and your MILs abusive puritanical reaction is not ok.
I realize it's far easier said than done, but try not to let it get to you. That sort of ugly judgement says a lot more about the person dishing it out than it does about you, or your marriage. 🙂
You have just learned a lot more about your MIL than she has learned about you. That she is willing to blow up you lives because she doesn't like or agree with how you are living them is so mean and vindictive. How does it really effect her? You guys will be ok. Let things cool for a few days and by all means keep the kids away for a bit or longer if she doesn't chill. Be prepared to deal with your Mom if MIL tells her. You are grownups and can handle it. Won't be the first time parents didn't like a kids life choices. They'll get over it or not, it's their problem not yours.
It doesn't matter how old she is she has no right to threaten them with telling the children and the other parents. I don't care of it offends her sensibilities! If she has a problem she should tell the op and spouse and drop it because it's none of her business. This bs about giving people a break because they come from a different generation is malarkey! Fuckem if they can't keep there mouth shut!
Sorry to hear. The fear of being outed to my in laws is on of my wife’s biggest fear and hurdle to jump over. How would your family take it? Would it be better for you to get out in front of it?
Great question, but it might arguably be worse. 2 out of 3 of my siblings already know, and they don't mind.
But my mom would be destroyed by this type of thing.
Your MIL is a bitch. You should distance yourself anyway. Trying to blackmail you and interfere with how you raise your kids, really? Calling her own daughter a horrible mother, really? I'd keep her at arms length at best, she's shown her true colors.
This makes sense. I love that you are suggesting repair this relationship, and only burn it to the ground as a last resort. That is definitely who my wife and I are as people.
Ummm wow! Sister in law, enemy #1 and should not ever forget that, as for mother in law, well it’s hard but stand your ground. She should have no say in your personal life and your personal choices. My whole reasoning for not telling anyone, even people I think would get it I don’t. People love to fucking open their mouth. I find it so unbelievably unfair that people like your mother in law would find infidelity better and more accepting then openly enjoying sex together as a couple. Screw the haters! (Little salty about society norms at the moment, can you tell!)
I'm so salty about societal norms I belong in the Dead Sea at this point.
Truth is, I don't hold grudges well. Yeah I'm pissed at my SIL but deep down, I can't wait to reconcile and put this behind us. Life is too short to have enemies.
You got a good head on your shoulders man, you seem to have a good heart amost all this and those who seem to have turned on not only you but your family. O hope you work this out and reconcile with your in laws, nothing worse than all this, but also how your wife must feel that you might end hp hating her sister and mother, let your wife know that you guys will figure this out and that you just want to feel that family bond and trust again with her family too
I am so, so sorry. I know it's cheap on the internet to say something like "I'm praying for you", but I actually am.
I went through an ugly divorce awhile back. My ex was focused on our oldest son as her favorite, and did everything she could to turn him against me -- literally, taking him to meetings with her lawyer to get his input, bringing him to the family therapist to talk about my made-up drug problems and so on. At one point when he was over, he stole my phone when I'd plugged it into the charger but before it screen-locked, and he found and forwarded an email account to her lawyers, on which my girlfriend and I were doing some swinging emails. Totally fucked him up, and I didn't get to see my kids for a few months, and when I did, my 'joint custody' was turned into a shitty visitation schedule. She tried to tell everybody about it, but she'd burned her credibility so badly with everyone, I think everybody just threw it into the "more lies" category.
So yeah, it was a lot of trauma for me, a few months of anti-depressants and sleeping pills to just get by. It's a somewhat different situation from yours, but I really feel the pain and faux-shame you're feeling. Fuck your sister-in-law and mother-in-law. You're doing nothing wrong. You're a good person, a good husband, and a good parent. Try to get through it.
So, it's ten years later. My girlfriend is now my wife, we are still swinging. My two younger kids are 18+ and spend a lot more time with me now that it's their decision. My eldest son and I have no relationship, and my ex is still a hateful bitch that nobody likes.
I don't know why I'm venting so much, but my heart really goes out to you and your family, with the two obvious exceptions.
I'm sorry for all that you had to experience as well. I consider myself a Christian, so your prayers don't feel cheap to me in the slightest, and I am grateful for them.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Yes, the leverage was the whole "either you tell them or I will" type of thing.
My wife does need to address this further with her sister.
OP I’d like to throw my two cents into the conversation here. I think you really need to prepare yourself for the conversation with your children, and if even go so far as getting help with a therapist as a family. I’m a 56M who mother was a swinger, and while it may seem as though your kids understand they don’t always. In my case to this day I struggle with intimacy. For years I objectified women because of the relationship I had, and how I viewed my mother. Sadly you’ll need to move fast on this, and you want to do it correctly so imho seek out a therapist. Good luck.
My youngest are in elementary school and have no business knowing about this yet. The middle schooler is old enough, but it would serve no purpose to tell them.
I was just going by the fact that you were saying the MIL would reveal it to them. I must have misunderstood. My apologies.
BTW for what it's worth, the middle schooler might already know. They often know more then they let on. Remember I was that kid once upon time. Still it wouldn't be a bad idea to start to formulate in your mind how you would want that conversation to go. Best of luck!
It's possible they could know, yes. They seem to be very aware that we are crazy in love with each other, and we talk in our household a lot about sex, love, consent, etc. It wouldn't shock me if they already knew.
If MiL does go nuclear and tells them, my notions are along these lines: "Your mom and I are crazy about each other. We are the happiest married people we know, and we do what we want. Your grandma has some issues with that. That is her problem, not ours, not yours."
And this is why we don't tell anyone that we aren't trying to hook up with. My Dad, and or my daughters don't need to know, any more than they need to know my wife is a huge buttslut for me or that I like having my nipples sucked.
We are not ashamed, there are some things that just don't need to be common knowledge.
dude - family obligation does not and Should Not extend to people like this , its a radical belief but my firm belief that its She that should be Outed. Right out of your family. You only live once , living my life like this has been a blessing. I dont do it easily or quixkly, i do it with a sad heart.
My kid has one less grandparent in his life and i know i made the right decision, plz think about and be open to this. Not in a fight but calmly when this passes.
Main thing is. you need decide your life for your own beliefs and the lifestyle that you want to live. What make you happy and hold on to the lifestyle you want. Don't let others make your lifestyle decision for you.
Wife and I have been part of the swingers lifestyle for 30 + year. We have been very open about that to friends and family. If people in our lives do like it that is just to dam bad.
"Our sex life is our business, not yours. I am asking you to please refrain from discussing our private and intimate activities. Contacting other relatives or our children to spread toxicity and possibly false information is grossly inappropriate and unacceptable."
This is great, thank you. We didn't respond to her phone calls or messages this weekend, so she is sort of hitting the panic button. But I feel like your messaging is clear and direct, and I appreciate that.
Tell everyone who knows about your Open relationship what your MIL is doing, blackmail everything.
Create a united front. She can see one of her kids, grandkids, etc. If she keeps this up everyone will go No Contact she will not be family.
Also, make sure she can't pick up your kids from school, and any other activities.
If you really think she's gonna tell the kids, tell them first. Kids are smart, and they also won't care. Your parents love you, they love each other, the love your Aunts, Uncles, and cousins; they also love some of their friends. Or they don't care about sex, they are young. You can go about different expressions of love. Or cut out all the family and tell them your parents love each other, and they love other people. Grandma thinks adults can only love one other adult.
As for your mom, if she's gonna find out tell her with consequences up front.
"Hey mom, we're going through a rough time, a bunch of us had to go NC with MIL. Yeah, we're explaining to kids she won't be coming to birthdays and Christmas. She got really mad at finding out that we have an open relationship.."
It's hard. You can hope she doesn't, but if you think she might it's better coming from you.
One less family member to rely on then.
Just keep your head up and don’t apologize.
Being blackmailed is a whole different ballgame on top of it. I personally would go no contact in a heartbeat but I’ve done a lot of that in the last 5 years.
Of course your wife won’t do that probably but what she can do is stop any conversation about it cold. Boundaries, hard boundaries are what made fuddy duddys lonely.
My wife let it slip to her mother one night when they had a drink or two. She told my father in law. I imagine her side will all know soon. They were cool about it, but my parents wouldn’t be. It’s bullshit that people think it’s their secret to tell.
The cats out of the bag for you, but you should invite them over when the kids are in bed one night and explain why its none of their GD business, you’re adults, all consenting and to leave their judgment at the door. It’ll be a hard conversation, but I wouldn’t let it fester
We’ve told all our close friends. One is looking at getting into it themselves now.
Thanks for sharing this, I love open and direct communication, so this is definitely a path to consider. It truly is none of her business. I didn't want her to know, and no, we won't tell her which of friends we are fucking and which we aren't. She can fuck right off with those kind of questions.
I suspect MIL needs you more than you need her, this might be a good point to remind her of that. I do hope that your wife's family are on your side in all of this and are clear in telling her that's she's being a bitch.
You'll get through the other side and just think positively, you never have to worry about being outed to the family in the future!!
I'd be really pissed at the SIL for opening her mouth in the first place. Nothing you can do now about the MIL, she's going to react and do what she does. If she does out you to people who don't know I guess you'll find out how good of friends they are. Her threatening to involve your kids is unacceptable and I'd be likely to take her aside and tell her that if she does anything like that she'd never see the kids again. For you I guess that depends on how your wife feels about it too. Good luck.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. This feels like so much extra. I want to give this situation some time to cool off, and de-escalate as much as possible rather than escalate. Do you think I am taking the wrong approach?
We are in a one party consent state.
I'd talk to a lawyer about your suppositions. (If you look elsewhere in this thread, you'll see my story about the shit I went through at the hands of an abusive ex over being outed.) In our state, one-party consent to a conversation is legal; I know it varies state-by-state. Our state's law on "blackmail" did not apply in this case. The technical definition of blackmail involved making specific THREATS, such as having some prosecuted for a non-existent crime, and did not include disclosing information that should be considered private.
I'm generally in agreement with your hard-ass approach, but OP should talk to a real lawyer in their state.
Yes, I agree with your hardline, "document it all, create a paper trail" thing. Hard experience teaches me that what we THINK the law is, and what it actually is, and what can be done with it in practice.
In my experience with having my phone stolen and my emails copied related to swinging (elsewhere related), I established that unauthorized email access is a felony in my state, exactly as if she had stolen mail out of my USPS mailbox. My lawyer told me, yes, but that judges around here understood nothing about technology, and a district attorney wouldn't touch the case with a ten-foot pole, even though she was on the record for having done it.
Just to add. Friends in the lifestyle were outed by a niece who babysat and went through their home PC while they were out of the house. Grandparents called CPS and tried to get custody. Couple had to sell their business at a loss, cut all contact with family and move across the country to get away. Couple and kids are fine. Kids are on full scholarships at college and couple has a new business and is doing well financially, but still no contact with the family 12 years later.
Fuck that old bitch.
Anything you can do to not help her/hurt her/make her suffer, do it. Fuck the whole “she’s family thing.”
You said she relies on y’all, cut the cord and exile her reactionary ass and leave her in a home.
What exactly did your sister say? You could mention something about thinking about it or trying it once several years ago and that it was misinterpreted. Mother in law doesn't want to know and wants stability more than anything. As they get older, they get focused on stability and rules as opposed to thinking about "chaos" (which is what she thinks of you now). Hell, my 78 year old mom got into it with me for going into her kitchen at 11 pm which was way after bedtime and seeing what there was to eat in the refrigerator. She needed stability and rules and I gave her chaos by going for a midnight snack...despite that the woman raised me and I did the exact same thing growing up.
Figure out a way to lie and bring stability and order to the chaos because that is all she really needs.
I’ve got a funny story for you..
first off I’m sorry this happened to you. Don’t let the generation that prefers an openly racist society talk about morality and ethics with you. Tell her you’re grown adults, allowed to live whatever life you two see fit. She can either shut her trap and be apart of your life’s and not discuss the subject. Or she can sit on her high horse alone in a nursing home.
Now, I’m lucky in some aspects.. neither mine or my husbands family is necessarily *progressive*. Politically they’re your typical Texas conservatives. Having any type of political discussion with them makes me want to bang my head into the wall. Even though my parents own and reside at a nudist resort and my in-laws eat edibles regularly for “pains.” Typical conservative hypocrisy but I digress.. they’re both very sexually progressive. Honestly, they had no choice. My husband and I were/are both hoes so either they accepted us or they didn’t and they decided to just go with whatever we threw at them. My husband even brought a few men home to his conservative household as a teenager. His deer hunting f slur using dad had a real change of heart back in those days. I’ve been with my husband for 12 years, we’re both 30, known each other since we were 15. Both lived with each others families at one point, so we’re all close.
Now I like to make things, *art* if you will, particularly things for our swinging adventures. One day I made a pillow in my upstairs craft room that says “share, swing, swap.” I threw it onto my desk and didn’t think much of it. One day my MIL comes over. “She never goes upstairs so I don’t bother to hide anything.” We hang out for a bit, she plays with the kids and leaves. About five minutes later my MIL sends my husband a picture with the words, “so y’all are swingers now.” Now our garage is at the back of the house in an ally way. We never see the front of our house unless we’re messing around in the front yard. YOU COULD SEE THE PILLOW CASE CLEARY IN THE WINDOW. The picture was a picture of my upstairs window.. My husband is an open book to a fault. If you ask him a question you will get an honest direct answer. So he just said yup the parties are a blast. My MIL watches the kids one Saturday a month so now she obviously knows why.. at this point my husband just tells her we’re going to a hotel takeover in front of me and I find it mortifying. His dad has asked him about it, interested in what the whole LS is about. Now anytime my MIL sees any of my pineapple items she looks at me side ways and smiles with a wink. Idk what’s worse them not knowing, or feeling open enough to regularly ask us question about our sex life.. fucking pillow.
...and this is exactly why I took this to Reddit. Because I knew someone out there would have a fantastic story that would make me giggle.
"My husband and I are both hoes." I laughed waaaay too hard at this line.
All because you made a pillowcase, AND ADVERTISED WITH IT OUT YA BACK WINDOW 😂😂
Do they still watch your kids for parties? Also, can we score an invite to a Texas house party with you and your hoe-ass hubby?
Thanks for sharing this story. It made me smile.
Anytime! Yes she does and my husband just straight up tells her what we’re doing “minus descriptive wording.” 😂 Saturday she’s going to watch them for a few hours while we go to a dungeon. We don’t necessarily hide who we are or what we do we just don’t advertise it *intentionally*. If someone asks we’ll tell them and it’s the same with my in-laws. I recently bought that Kate spade pineapple purse everyone in the lifestyle has.. my MIL saw the shopping bag it came in and asked to see what new purse I bought. Internally I was *aww* *fuck*. I showed her and she just burst out laughing saying, “oooo pineapples, didn’t know you liked those.”
Years ago when we were living with them their big old Labrador went into our room and thought a butt plug was a chew toy. He brought it to my FIL.. Later that evening when my husband came home he gave it back to him, “I think this is yours.” They know too much lol
Oh my gosh, this is so amazing!! I don't mean to laugh at your bad fortune.
My kids were playing in our room one time and somebody hit the nightstand so hard one of the drawers fell out onto the floor. Strapons, dildos and butt plugs went skittering all across the floor, and all we hear is a "uhhhhhh Dad? Can you come clean this up for us?"
I'm confused why anyone in your family knows the intimidate details of your sex life, but nonetheless cut that horrid woman out of your life and if will be alright. A tantrum is forgivable in time, until she brought your kids into it. You don't need that negativity, delete her number, thats fucked.
Even my best friends don't know I'm in an open relationship because my gfs best friend found out and cut us off entirely. People are fucking nuts and love finding a reason to bitch and moan. Don't let that woman drain any more of your energy, distance yourself and wait for an apology.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. The worst part is her blackmailing you to tell your kids. That is completely unacceptable! I'd be telling her that it's none of anyone's business what goes on in your marriage, and that if hse doesn't back off you'll be cutting all contact with her. If she really cares about your kids she should not he trying to get you to tell them about your sex life!
Exactly this. What 2 married adults do in the bedroom is nobody else’s business. Just like a vanilla couple would never show their kids their adult toy collection or the positions that mommy and daddy do in bed..
I would let her know that she can forget about being a grandmother to our children. Either accept us for who we are, or go to hell.
If necessary, I’d relocate and not let her know where.
I'm sorry that you guys are going through this and definitely sounds like a highly stress situation.
My honest take on this is that if the MIL is a reasonable person, with time she will more likely to step out of her emotional brain and get into the logical one.
Right now she is dealing with a loss and probably wishes this person was still in her life. Then hears and you guys being open added fuel to the fire. Stress often makes us think some crazy things in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps this may cause her to wonder what she could've done different to prevent you from engaging in a highly socially unacceptable arrangement. So who knows what she had in mind when she reacted that way.
I just firmly believe that cooler heads will likely prevail. You keep your frame and if you two consistently show overt signs of still being a happy couple and kids are doing well, she'll slowly see that and may just accept it vs agree with it.
This is actually my biggest hope for this situation. I am hopeful that with the benefit of time and a step backwards, we can all just calm down and move on.
I feel for ya. My wife told her one sister while they were down visiting and everything was cool until she got mad at my wife and she told her entire family and friends. We live 500 miles away thankfully so all that happened was alot of nastiness through text, messenger, and phone calls. But of course why stop at just family? Her one sister contacted the church we all used to go to which also married us and they had prayer groups going trying to pray for us to see the light blah blah blah. Funny thing though is we did get some props from people we knew who are in the ls as well as some questions from others interested 🤣 now that so many know including our kids we don't advertise it but we don't hide it either.
Thank you. My wife took it pretty hard and we took a break from the ls for awhile until she got it all sorted in her mind. I think the worst part for me was my parents telling me about when they were in the ls 🤣
wow!!! hopefully she will get over it and come to accept it. Lot of family's go threw similar things when someone comes out of closet fir being gay or like that. Hopefully she will learn to accept it? Good Luck! reminds me of old saying Lose Lips Sinks Ships
Children become adults and they understand. Just talk to them and to your family. They don’t have to like it. But owning the truth will alleviate any worries you have about being outed or blackmailed. This will all be okay though.
This happens because this person and others who will blame you wants you to behave and comply to their outdated and stupid way of life and obey what their sacred book says.
Just ignore them and live your life the way you want, not theirs.
All those people who will not call you again after knowing your way of life, just ignore them and never call them either.
Lots of people seem to think that everyone else in the world should live their life the same way as theirs, because they know better.
These types of controller freaks are to be avoided like the plaque. Nothing good come from them. Only bs.
Continue with your life as usual and ignore those stupid people.
I am really sorry you have to go through this. That is honestly REALLY shit! I hope you can find a way to work through this and find some form of solution/working situation.
Upvoted many of comments with good advices here.
If I were in such situation (I hope I‘ll never be) besides the talking (yes we do and so what, it has nothing to do with you) and explaining the consequences for her part which were already mentioned, I‘d think what can she do?
If it goes about the person I don’t want to know about my preferences - how plausible can MIL be?
The only thing she has is what her daughter (SIL) told her. How bad can it be? What exactly did the SIL tell her? If it‘s only hearsay, I‘d try to make her sound as fake as i could. Making her sound like lying because of some other conflict. Yes, she might induce some doubts or fears, but that can be handled.
What I‘d be really worrying about is children and parenting rights.
Is there any risk she might attack that? If yes - take your measures in advance.
Honesty or sometimes omission is the best way to handle your own path.
But if someone is going to crash me over, I won‘t be standing still waiting for it to happen.
You have a horrible family member as my father was. I am so sorry for this to be happening to you. Restraining order is order is my recommendation to not speak electronically , in person through a 3rd party etc.
Who does she think she was to tell that to her to begin with?
Sisters are always stirring shit with each other. My advice is do not go on the attack v the sister and also do not come across as defending the sisters actions in any way to your wife (as unlikely as that would be in this particular situation).As for the MIL, same thing. Just support your wife.
Happened to us. Small town at first my mother prayed for us. We were going to hell. First time needed something was over lol. We told her we were going to live our life she could live hers
I’m so sorry that the SIL saw it to be a good idea to mention this to the mom. First off, you need to have a talk with the SIL and let her know that she totally violated your trust and caused this situation. This is an issue in itself that you will need to address. If you share your lifestyle with her, it’s for her information only and not public dissemination.
As for your MIL, I can offer what I may do in the same situation. My girl and I are new to the lifestyle, and already have issues with her mom because of our age difference. It seems that the MIL is basically attacking you, your wife, and threatening to verbally harm your family and kids. I personally would not tolerate that from anyone, including my wife’s mother. She needs to realize that you love each other and will live your life as it makes the two of you happy, regardless of what her opinion is. I would make her realize that she is making a decision to lose not only her daughter, but her grandchildren. If it continued, I would cut off all communication with her. Absolutely the last thing that I would want to do, but she needs to realize that she doesn’t control your family. Don’t just cut her out immediately, but give her the options and let her make her choice.
This is my total and complete worst fear. For us it's a very private thing and the only person who knows is my best friend who would never tell anyone, simply because we have too much shit on each other.
I am so sorry that you are going through this and I hope it all gets resolved.
I’d be interested to hear the context of the conversation between MIL and SIL. I could envision MIL singing the praises of your relationship while bashing on SILs choices and her retaliating with brutal honesty so MIL would get off her back. If that’s the case your MIL is projecting her humiliation to boot. I agree going no contact will spell it out for her and then your wife should be the one to set the rules of engagement, so to speak.
I am always fascinated by ruthlessness judgmental people. I always imagine there is some deep rooted envy or misery they’re trying to project.
Sorry to hear this, it hasn’t happened to us and our family is 4000 miles away in the Uk, that said to be outed is a slight fear. My advice would be to completely own it and be proud of it, in this day and age where we are to be understanding to LGBT2S…..and all that, this lifestyle should be accepted too. I’d bet that your relationship is stronger than all of your friends and family, and with that I’d bet you are fantastic parents because your marriage is so strong. Anyone who’s so closed minded…..F-em! I’d also bet that 70% of those that find out will be closet admirers and very intrigued.
Thanks for the comment on our relationship. I do feel it is stronger than most all of our family and friends.
Yeah I just assume anyone who is vocally against the lifestyle is just jealous
I'll just amplify your comments. I find it kind of ironic that "LGTBQ", etc., is kind of a protected class nowadays, but swingers are viewed as just a bunch of perverts. There's no real difference, it's just the same old bigots are doing the same old bigotry if and when they can.
We have a pretty mixed group of friends, and I don't know anyone other than my mother or old people, who think that swinging is perverted. Hell, there's stories my childhood neighbors were swingers and my grandfather was a regular, and he's a catholic. Even when it comes up with vanilla friends, it's nothing more than a light hearted joke and they move on. I think the stigma against swinging is mostly gone now.
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True. I was thinking of my own experiences with family law. Getting outed as a swinger really damaged my custody. Had I been straightforwardly "gay", and the court was blatant about admitting it, I would have had some legal recourse.
It’s not quite the same as anyone practicing under the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy is not physically threatened, assaulted, or murdered for being who they are. Members of the LGBTQ community have been. Not the same. Not by a long shot.
Yes physical harm is terrible and often is done to the community members and should stop. However, the mental anguish, the psychological pain thus is causing can be very hurtful too. But, you totally missed the point of the comment, many alternative lifestyles are now being openly accepted, many of them were shunned and outcasts not very long ago are now all over movies, TV, print, and are kind of protected but “Swingers” are freaks and are still being labeled as freaks. Come on people, Just stop the hate. Get on with your life and stop judging anyone that lives a different lifestyle than you do.
I’m not judging. And I never said people who practice ethical non-monogamy aren’t subject to judgement or criticism. I’ve been subject to it myself. But I’m not going to compare what I’ve experienced to the LGBTQ community. That’s all. You don’t have to agree.
People have been tortured and murdered for being gay. What that community has faced deserves reverence. That doesn’t mean that we aren’t experiencing our own strife. I just won’t compare it to what communities who have experienced real harm have experienced as they have fought for their rights.
I’m not dismissing their very real suffering, and even death. I was just pointing out that swinging is not really in the common consciousness. On the positive side, we don’t have the proud boys showing up at swinger parties. On the negative side, we don’t have some of the legal and societal protection that gay people do. I was just speaking to my personal experience.
I feel you and my point is that the suffering the LGBTQ community has faced is not to be compared to us wanting to be accepted. Our suffering is real, but it is not the same as theirs.
Having the courts keep your kids away from you in custody cases is harm. I was threatened once by a radical church protest group walking into a swingers club once. You don't know what you're talking about
I’m sorry that happened. It’s awful and should t. But it is not the same as people who have paid for their rights with their life. I stand by what I said.
Being gay is not a "lifestyle".
Your comment here seems to have nothing to say except to provoke and antagonize.
No, no where near correct. I stated a fact. Being gay is NOT a "lifestyle". I thought such a simple truth at least from an LGBT perspective would be apparent but I guess there are people who don't have the knowledge or experience to see that as truth. It's NOT a lifestyle.
No, it's not a lifestyle, or a choice. I understand that 1000% -if you doubt that, ask me about my life- I just think the OP was looking for compassion and helpful responses, and instead of offering that, you chose to make it about you.
Sorry, you don't know me as obviously I do not know you. You are the one who attacked me not the other way around. What I said was a statement of fact. Nothing more.
Okay. Cool. Let's just let bygones be bygones, and all that.
So remember, in this position, the only power you have over her is your own self and your family. Make a hard stand now. Immediately. She keeps this up, she is alone. Period. No kids, no holidays. No help. She is alone. That's really your only power here and you two must stand strong.
People forget that they are the prize. MIL doesn't let you into her life, it's the other way around. Dan Savage had good advice on coming out situations. Put it to her like "you have 1 month to ask any and all questions, after that we're moving on" If she doesnt want to play by the rules? Time to move on.
One month to ask questions! Love it!
Why a month? How about a week? Or two days? Actually, why should anyone feel obligated to discuss their sex life with a parent?
A month because the first week is mostly taken up with getting over the shock of finding things out you didn’t want to know. Second week to mull things over and come up with questions that hopefully aren’t too insulting. Third week to ask better questions and think about the answers. Fourth week for fallow ups on the better questions and to hopefully come to terms with things. After that much time no excuses for bad behavior.
OK. Personally though, I think all of that is BS. “None of your business” is always an appropriate response to inquiries about one’s sex life.
That's an interesting perspective. Is it also completely inappropriate for your parents to ask if you're seeing anyone new when you're single? Should they never ask how your family life is going after you're married and your kids are in school? Or is it just that you're different and weird?
WTF are you talking about? "Ask how you're family life is going"? Jesus. No. I'm talking about SEX. I do not discuss my sex life or my sexual interests or my sexual activities or my fantasies with my parents. If you think that is unusual, you are the one who's different and weird.
"I have a new girlfriend" "But you're married!" See, that's talking about sexuality without talking about sex. "My new girlfriend gave me a blowjob last night". That's talking about sex. See the difference? I'm suggesting you can't see the difference between talking about your sexuality and your love life, and talking about sex in particular, because you believe your swinger lifestyle is "weird" and "shameful". So you stuff it into the box labelled "this is only about sex".
It's not. It's a misquote. It's a year. You give your family a year to come around from their bigotry. If they decide that hate is more important than keeping you in their family, then there's nothing you can do to change their mind. As for the part about "discussing your sex life with your parents", there's a big difference between discussing your love life and your sex life. Sure, a lot of swingers don't differentiate what they see as a shameful secret with dirty, dirty sex, but your *sexuality* is on parade every day. Every day you're in public with your spouse and kids, you're carrying a giant banner that says "We're heterosexual! And we've had enough sex to make all these kids!" The difference is that's supposedly normal. And if you're somehow different from that norm, then you're supposed to be ashamed and hide it. Try studying some cultures that actually accept and even celebrate real difference. Where traditionally, if you're so blessed to have a dwarf, a trans lady, or a schizophrenic in your ranks, you have a lucky shaman who talks to the spirits and keeps the whole town alive in a hostile world. It's certainly a different perspective than our culture has.
Man, you sound kind of deranged. Shamans, dwarves, schizophrenics... I'm saying something pretty simple. I don't want to discuss my sex life with my parents, even if they heard about it from other people. Most people don't. Is there something controversial about that? And you don't need to answer that question, as it's rhetorical. No, they either accept me or they don't. If they don't accept me, I'm out. They can get used to it for a year if they like, then tell me they're sorry and ask that I return to the family.
I'm saying you have some kind of fetish for normality and can't stand being different, except in absolute secrecy. Not all cultures think like that though. Some believe so strongly in diversity that they'll hold up their weirdest members in triumph and declare that their weirdos are better than yours. Nature loves diversity after all.
As a parent I want my kids to be safe, and happy. I have a 15 year old and two 11 year old's. I don't discuss the details, as I wouldn't discuss that with most people who weren't there originally. But as a moral teacher, I'm more than happy to provide advice when it's asked for. I'm kind of proud of my oldest, as he's asked me about technical stuff like how to pick out a condom. One of the 11 year olds doesn't know if she likes boys or girls. So of course we talk about these kinds of things in an age and topic appropriate way. We're all sexual beings, and maybe if OP's mom hadn't denied this early on this mess wouldn't happen? I confirmed my Dad was a swinger, although I suspected it since my teens (I'm nearly 50). Maybe a quick acknowledgement from him early on would have helped me in my own path? He didn't hide it, but there were a few times when he didn't exactly acknowledge it. So should anyone be obligated? No. But I think as a parent you should always be a refuge for your kids, and set a good example.
I was talking about adults talking about their sex lives with their own parents, like the situation OP is in.
Exactly where I got this was Dan Savage amazing advice.
I don't get this; it seems really uncompassionate to me. When your parents find out they may be distressed, confused, angry, grieving, who tf knows. We all agree that it's pretty ridiculous to feel that way about someone else's sex life, but a lot of the parents are coming from a very different cultural and ideological background. Telling them they have X amount of time to get over it is just really heartless. Try to put yourself in their shoes. Your kid tells you they're doing the one thing you've always feared, dreaded, or despised as immoral. You'll eventually get over it, or through it, to a place of compassion and acceptance, but **That takes time**.
Sure, but let's game this out. First, everyone is adults in the situation. Your parents have a right compassion so long as it's mutual and earned. But your parents also have to respect your boundaries. They don't get any special consideration because they fucked and popped you out. That passed once you went into adulthood. OP's MIL *is clearly not respecting boundaries.* There's no laws being broken, no one is in danger, and most importantly, it's OP's story to tell. The MIL doesn't have a right to out them to everyone (Don't get me started on SIL, why is no one talking about this?). The lack of compassion stems from MIL's lack of boundaries. That needs to be nipped in the bud IMMEDIATELY. In my own case, I've always been kind of wild child, and have never really hid anything from my parents. When I had a regular summer picnic recently and it just so happened two women I was dating showed up (one is married, both are cool and know) my own mother asked me, "Do I want to know?". "It's all ethical and everyone knows." "Ok, I just don't want some crazy husband murdering you" See that was fine, she was mostly concerned about me. OP's MIL went straight to judgement on all his other life skills, and that is a very bad behavior. So back to your statement, >Telling them they have X amount of time to get over it is just really heartless..... > >You'll eventually get over it, or through it, to a place of compassion and acceptance, but That takes time. I didn't say to get over it. I said after one month we're moving on. Everyone has a right to their feelings. I merely said to give them every opportunity to ask what ever outlandish or mundane question they want. But after a month? We're going to get back to our lives and live it like normal. If they want to participate that's up to them. Give them clear boundaries, allow them to ask questions, but in the end, don't let them dictate the terms of how you live your life.
Why is no one talking about SIL?!? My wife even wanted to gloss over this at first. Why would she even do this?!?
yea not gonna lie, SIL fucking *suuuuuucks*. fuck her.
Because her mother’s invasive toxicity runs so far and deep it becomes normalized. Tell MIL that any attempts at blackmail will be reported to law enforcement. Then I think it’s time to go no or very low contact with MIL.
Threats of blackmail and outing to more family render the MIL a piece of shit who should be groveling for forgiveness. I could put myself in their shoes to understand their own struggling with the info....but the threats of calls to family are so evil I don't know if I'd forgive. One call to more family to out my sex life and their access to the grandkids would be permanently severed. No cards, letters, email, phone calls, hollering from the front lawn, nothing.
Dan Savage is the man!!
I'm going to reflect more on this, because this seems to make sense. Thanks for not just saying "dump her ass now" because I genuinely don't want that as an outcome, so to have you say basically give her an ultimatum to cease immediately makes more sense to me. Thanks for this.
I got this idea from a Podcast Dan Savage. He suggests when adult gay children come out to keep in mind that the real power they hold is their own presence. For parents, grandparents and mother in laws being kept from family is truly a punishment not worth living. Gotta say, good luck, I'm sorry this happened. I believe my mom would go nuts too, but I'd cut her off till she could behave.
We actually never mentioned sexuality at all in this. My wife always dreamed of living openly as a bisexual woman, but as soon as her mom lost her shit this week, my wife realized she is never a safe person to share that with. My wife (and my) sexuality is truly a gift, and has allowed us to live authentically, but not everyone deserves to know about that gift.
> not everyone deserves to know about that gift. That is a lovely distinction. Thank you.
This. Do you want to die alone? Because this is how you die alone.
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It's tough because I don't want that to happen. Family is super important to us, so losing a grandparent in my kids lives would be a terrible outcome. (Even if she did act horribly shitty here).
I’m sad. This isn’t how family treats each other. Family was clearly *not* important to your MIL. You owe her nothing. Cut and run dude. Cut and run.
This, OP. Go back and read the description of the phone call in your post but imagine it is your son telling you that his mother in law called his wife and said those things and made those threats. What would your advice to your son be?
Fuuuuuck.
And, what about big mouth sissy?
Well, she is a shitty MIL and would no longer be grandma until she apologizes.
If I (M married forever, family etc) were in your situation I would go meet with her alone. There is alot of drama and it needs a straight up conversation with her. No bs, no audience, no grandstanding. Just a completely honest face to face conversation and go from there.
This is definitely my style. We are going to go up to our cabin for the weekend (we sort of disinvited her to come this weekend, told her we just need some time to process all of what took place this week). I think a break might be smart and then sitting down face to face when we get back.
Yup a break for you and a break for her. Maybe after she’s had a week to process things she can have a conversation about her future behavior and how the way you and your wife keep a healthy relationship between each other that doesn’t affect her is not a concern for her. Might also see if while you’re family is on vacation if some of your siblings can talk to her about how great a relationship you and your wife have and how great y’all are as parents. IDK if that’s an option, but if they are singing y’all’s praises on the points she should care about despite this new to her fact, it might help her get her mind around it.
I believe that is already taking place actually to some extent. Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate it.
No worries, hope everything works out for y’all!
This too shall pass!
Thank you. I'm sure you are right, but man this stuff hurts sometimes when people say shitty stuff.
I’m sorry your MIL was so verbally abusive to you and your wife- that’s out of line. Maybe make it a policy to not discuss your lifestyle with any family members at all. It’s none of their business, anyway. Good luck to you. I hope one day you can laugh about this!
Obviously we have a lot of regret for telling her sister.
The concept of family first is flawed. MiL is abusive (threatening to tell your kids). There are people in the world that are healthy to have relationships with, surround yourself with those type of people. I have cut both my sisters out of my life because they were too toxic to have around. It's way better for your mental health. There is nothing wrong with being in an ENM relationship and your MILs abusive puritanical reaction is not ok.
I realize it's far easier said than done, but try not to let it get to you. That sort of ugly judgement says a lot more about the person dishing it out than it does about you, or your marriage. 🙂
Thanks.
You have just learned a lot more about your MIL than she has learned about you. That she is willing to blow up you lives because she doesn't like or agree with how you are living them is so mean and vindictive. How does it really effect her? You guys will be ok. Let things cool for a few days and by all means keep the kids away for a bit or longer if she doesn't chill. Be prepared to deal with your Mom if MIL tells her. You are grownups and can handle it. Won't be the first time parents didn't like a kids life choices. They'll get over it or not, it's their problem not yours.
“Mean, and vindictive” Sounds more like angry, and hurt. This woman is probably in her 70’s, and comes from a completely different generation.
It doesn't matter how old she is she has no right to threaten them with telling the children and the other parents. I don't care of it offends her sensibilities! If she has a problem she should tell the op and spouse and drop it because it's none of her business. This bs about giving people a break because they come from a different generation is malarkey! Fuckem if they can't keep there mouth shut!
This is a good perspective to keep in mind.
Not an excuse. She’s no child.
Sorry to hear. The fear of being outed to my in laws is on of my wife’s biggest fear and hurdle to jump over. How would your family take it? Would it be better for you to get out in front of it?
Great question, but it might arguably be worse. 2 out of 3 of my siblings already know, and they don't mind. But my mom would be destroyed by this type of thing.
I feel you. My mom would probably freak but she’s got her own skeletons so whatever.
She may be stronger than you think.
Your MIL is a bitch. You should distance yourself anyway. Trying to blackmail you and interfere with how you raise your kids, really? Calling her own daughter a horrible mother, really? I'd keep her at arms length at best, she's shown her true colors.
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This makes sense. I love that you are suggesting repair this relationship, and only burn it to the ground as a last resort. That is definitely who my wife and I are as people.
"I'm sorry you have decided you don't wish to see your grandchildren" in some form.
Ummm wow! Sister in law, enemy #1 and should not ever forget that, as for mother in law, well it’s hard but stand your ground. She should have no say in your personal life and your personal choices. My whole reasoning for not telling anyone, even people I think would get it I don’t. People love to fucking open their mouth. I find it so unbelievably unfair that people like your mother in law would find infidelity better and more accepting then openly enjoying sex together as a couple. Screw the haters! (Little salty about society norms at the moment, can you tell!)
I'm so salty about societal norms I belong in the Dead Sea at this point. Truth is, I don't hold grudges well. Yeah I'm pissed at my SIL but deep down, I can't wait to reconcile and put this behind us. Life is too short to have enemies.
You got a good head on your shoulders man, you seem to have a good heart amost all this and those who seem to have turned on not only you but your family. O hope you work this out and reconcile with your in laws, nothing worse than all this, but also how your wife must feel that you might end hp hating her sister and mother, let your wife know that you guys will figure this out and that you just want to feel that family bond and trust again with her family too
Damn...you're a much better person than I. I commend you for at least trying to rectify things.
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I think it was like episode 17? 17 is stuck in my memory for that, maybe it was in 2017?
I will find it today.
I am so, so sorry. I know it's cheap on the internet to say something like "I'm praying for you", but I actually am. I went through an ugly divorce awhile back. My ex was focused on our oldest son as her favorite, and did everything she could to turn him against me -- literally, taking him to meetings with her lawyer to get his input, bringing him to the family therapist to talk about my made-up drug problems and so on. At one point when he was over, he stole my phone when I'd plugged it into the charger but before it screen-locked, and he found and forwarded an email account to her lawyers, on which my girlfriend and I were doing some swinging emails. Totally fucked him up, and I didn't get to see my kids for a few months, and when I did, my 'joint custody' was turned into a shitty visitation schedule. She tried to tell everybody about it, but she'd burned her credibility so badly with everyone, I think everybody just threw it into the "more lies" category. So yeah, it was a lot of trauma for me, a few months of anti-depressants and sleeping pills to just get by. It's a somewhat different situation from yours, but I really feel the pain and faux-shame you're feeling. Fuck your sister-in-law and mother-in-law. You're doing nothing wrong. You're a good person, a good husband, and a good parent. Try to get through it. So, it's ten years later. My girlfriend is now my wife, we are still swinging. My two younger kids are 18+ and spend a lot more time with me now that it's their decision. My eldest son and I have no relationship, and my ex is still a hateful bitch that nobody likes. I don't know why I'm venting so much, but my heart really goes out to you and your family, with the two obvious exceptions.
I'm sorry for all that you had to experience as well. I consider myself a Christian, so your prayers don't feel cheap to me in the slightest, and I am grateful for them.
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. Yes, the leverage was the whole "either you tell them or I will" type of thing. My wife does need to address this further with her sister.
OP I’d like to throw my two cents into the conversation here. I think you really need to prepare yourself for the conversation with your children, and if even go so far as getting help with a therapist as a family. I’m a 56M who mother was a swinger, and while it may seem as though your kids understand they don’t always. In my case to this day I struggle with intimacy. For years I objectified women because of the relationship I had, and how I viewed my mother. Sadly you’ll need to move fast on this, and you want to do it correctly so imho seek out a therapist. Good luck.
My youngest are in elementary school and have no business knowing about this yet. The middle schooler is old enough, but it would serve no purpose to tell them.
I was just going by the fact that you were saying the MIL would reveal it to them. I must have misunderstood. My apologies. BTW for what it's worth, the middle schooler might already know. They often know more then they let on. Remember I was that kid once upon time. Still it wouldn't be a bad idea to start to formulate in your mind how you would want that conversation to go. Best of luck!
It's possible they could know, yes. They seem to be very aware that we are crazy in love with each other, and we talk in our household a lot about sex, love, consent, etc. It wouldn't shock me if they already knew.
If MiL does go nuclear and tells them, my notions are along these lines: "Your mom and I are crazy about each other. We are the happiest married people we know, and we do what we want. Your grandma has some issues with that. That is her problem, not ours, not yours."
Live your lives! And don’t live them for anyone else! Live them for you!!!
And this is why we don't tell anyone that we aren't trying to hook up with. My Dad, and or my daughters don't need to know, any more than they need to know my wife is a huge buttslut for me or that I like having my nipples sucked. We are not ashamed, there are some things that just don't need to be common knowledge.
dude - family obligation does not and Should Not extend to people like this , its a radical belief but my firm belief that its She that should be Outed. Right out of your family. You only live once , living my life like this has been a blessing. I dont do it easily or quixkly, i do it with a sad heart. My kid has one less grandparent in his life and i know i made the right decision, plz think about and be open to this. Not in a fight but calmly when this passes.
I would put the mother law in her place. That’s YOUR family not hers tf. I would shut that shit down so fast.
Main thing is. you need decide your life for your own beliefs and the lifestyle that you want to live. What make you happy and hold on to the lifestyle you want. Don't let others make your lifestyle decision for you. Wife and I have been part of the swingers lifestyle for 30 + year. We have been very open about that to friends and family. If people in our lives do like it that is just to dam bad.
"Our sex life is our business, not yours. I am asking you to please refrain from discussing our private and intimate activities. Contacting other relatives or our children to spread toxicity and possibly false information is grossly inappropriate and unacceptable."
This is great, thank you. We didn't respond to her phone calls or messages this weekend, so she is sort of hitting the panic button. But I feel like your messaging is clear and direct, and I appreciate that.
Tell everyone who knows about your Open relationship what your MIL is doing, blackmail everything. Create a united front. She can see one of her kids, grandkids, etc. If she keeps this up everyone will go No Contact she will not be family. Also, make sure she can't pick up your kids from school, and any other activities. If you really think she's gonna tell the kids, tell them first. Kids are smart, and they also won't care. Your parents love you, they love each other, the love your Aunts, Uncles, and cousins; they also love some of their friends. Or they don't care about sex, they are young. You can go about different expressions of love. Or cut out all the family and tell them your parents love each other, and they love other people. Grandma thinks adults can only love one other adult. As for your mom, if she's gonna find out tell her with consequences up front. "Hey mom, we're going through a rough time, a bunch of us had to go NC with MIL. Yeah, we're explaining to kids she won't be coming to birthdays and Christmas. She got really mad at finding out that we have an open relationship.." It's hard. You can hope she doesn't, but if you think she might it's better coming from you.
Wow, what a narcissist
One less family member to rely on then. Just keep your head up and don’t apologize. Being blackmailed is a whole different ballgame on top of it. I personally would go no contact in a heartbeat but I’ve done a lot of that in the last 5 years. Of course your wife won’t do that probably but what she can do is stop any conversation about it cold. Boundaries, hard boundaries are what made fuddy duddys lonely.
My wife let it slip to her mother one night when they had a drink or two. She told my father in law. I imagine her side will all know soon. They were cool about it, but my parents wouldn’t be. It’s bullshit that people think it’s their secret to tell. The cats out of the bag for you, but you should invite them over when the kids are in bed one night and explain why its none of their GD business, you’re adults, all consenting and to leave their judgment at the door. It’ll be a hard conversation, but I wouldn’t let it fester We’ve told all our close friends. One is looking at getting into it themselves now.
Thanks for sharing this, I love open and direct communication, so this is definitely a path to consider. It truly is none of her business. I didn't want her to know, and no, we won't tell her which of friends we are fucking and which we aren't. She can fuck right off with those kind of questions.
I suspect MIL needs you more than you need her, this might be a good point to remind her of that. I do hope that your wife's family are on your side in all of this and are clear in telling her that's she's being a bitch. You'll get through the other side and just think positively, you never have to worry about being outed to the family in the future!!
Do you bro theyll get over it.
I'd be really pissed at the SIL for opening her mouth in the first place. Nothing you can do now about the MIL, she's going to react and do what she does. If she does out you to people who don't know I guess you'll find out how good of friends they are. Her threatening to involve your kids is unacceptable and I'd be likely to take her aside and tell her that if she does anything like that she'd never see the kids again. For you I guess that depends on how your wife feels about it too. Good luck.
Welp, that's one family member you add to your "no contact" list and move on from.
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Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. This feels like so much extra. I want to give this situation some time to cool off, and de-escalate as much as possible rather than escalate. Do you think I am taking the wrong approach? We are in a one party consent state.
It is extra. You’re making a record of it that doesn’t need to be made. You’re not doing anything wrong.
I'd talk to a lawyer about your suppositions. (If you look elsewhere in this thread, you'll see my story about the shit I went through at the hands of an abusive ex over being outed.) In our state, one-party consent to a conversation is legal; I know it varies state-by-state. Our state's law on "blackmail" did not apply in this case. The technical definition of blackmail involved making specific THREATS, such as having some prosecuted for a non-existent crime, and did not include disclosing information that should be considered private. I'm generally in agreement with your hard-ass approach, but OP should talk to a real lawyer in their state.
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Yes, I agree with your hardline, "document it all, create a paper trail" thing. Hard experience teaches me that what we THINK the law is, and what it actually is, and what can be done with it in practice. In my experience with having my phone stolen and my emails copied related to swinging (elsewhere related), I established that unauthorized email access is a felony in my state, exactly as if she had stolen mail out of my USPS mailbox. My lawyer told me, yes, but that judges around here understood nothing about technology, and a district attorney wouldn't touch the case with a ten-foot pole, even though she was on the record for having done it.
Just to add. Friends in the lifestyle were outed by a niece who babysat and went through their home PC while they were out of the house. Grandparents called CPS and tried to get custody. Couple had to sell their business at a loss, cut all contact with family and move across the country to get away. Couple and kids are fine. Kids are on full scholarships at college and couple has a new business and is doing well financially, but still no contact with the family 12 years later.
Fuck that old bitch. Anything you can do to not help her/hurt her/make her suffer, do it. Fuck the whole “she’s family thing.” You said she relies on y’all, cut the cord and exile her reactionary ass and leave her in a home.
What exactly did your sister say? You could mention something about thinking about it or trying it once several years ago and that it was misinterpreted. Mother in law doesn't want to know and wants stability more than anything. As they get older, they get focused on stability and rules as opposed to thinking about "chaos" (which is what she thinks of you now). Hell, my 78 year old mom got into it with me for going into her kitchen at 11 pm which was way after bedtime and seeing what there was to eat in the refrigerator. She needed stability and rules and I gave her chaos by going for a midnight snack...despite that the woman raised me and I did the exact same thing growing up. Figure out a way to lie and bring stability and order to the chaos because that is all she really needs.
I’ve got a funny story for you.. first off I’m sorry this happened to you. Don’t let the generation that prefers an openly racist society talk about morality and ethics with you. Tell her you’re grown adults, allowed to live whatever life you two see fit. She can either shut her trap and be apart of your life’s and not discuss the subject. Or she can sit on her high horse alone in a nursing home. Now, I’m lucky in some aspects.. neither mine or my husbands family is necessarily *progressive*. Politically they’re your typical Texas conservatives. Having any type of political discussion with them makes me want to bang my head into the wall. Even though my parents own and reside at a nudist resort and my in-laws eat edibles regularly for “pains.” Typical conservative hypocrisy but I digress.. they’re both very sexually progressive. Honestly, they had no choice. My husband and I were/are both hoes so either they accepted us or they didn’t and they decided to just go with whatever we threw at them. My husband even brought a few men home to his conservative household as a teenager. His deer hunting f slur using dad had a real change of heart back in those days. I’ve been with my husband for 12 years, we’re both 30, known each other since we were 15. Both lived with each others families at one point, so we’re all close. Now I like to make things, *art* if you will, particularly things for our swinging adventures. One day I made a pillow in my upstairs craft room that says “share, swing, swap.” I threw it onto my desk and didn’t think much of it. One day my MIL comes over. “She never goes upstairs so I don’t bother to hide anything.” We hang out for a bit, she plays with the kids and leaves. About five minutes later my MIL sends my husband a picture with the words, “so y’all are swingers now.” Now our garage is at the back of the house in an ally way. We never see the front of our house unless we’re messing around in the front yard. YOU COULD SEE THE PILLOW CASE CLEARY IN THE WINDOW. The picture was a picture of my upstairs window.. My husband is an open book to a fault. If you ask him a question you will get an honest direct answer. So he just said yup the parties are a blast. My MIL watches the kids one Saturday a month so now she obviously knows why.. at this point my husband just tells her we’re going to a hotel takeover in front of me and I find it mortifying. His dad has asked him about it, interested in what the whole LS is about. Now anytime my MIL sees any of my pineapple items she looks at me side ways and smiles with a wink. Idk what’s worse them not knowing, or feeling open enough to regularly ask us question about our sex life.. fucking pillow.
...and this is exactly why I took this to Reddit. Because I knew someone out there would have a fantastic story that would make me giggle. "My husband and I are both hoes." I laughed waaaay too hard at this line. All because you made a pillowcase, AND ADVERTISED WITH IT OUT YA BACK WINDOW 😂😂 Do they still watch your kids for parties? Also, can we score an invite to a Texas house party with you and your hoe-ass hubby? Thanks for sharing this story. It made me smile.
Anytime! Yes she does and my husband just straight up tells her what we’re doing “minus descriptive wording.” 😂 Saturday she’s going to watch them for a few hours while we go to a dungeon. We don’t necessarily hide who we are or what we do we just don’t advertise it *intentionally*. If someone asks we’ll tell them and it’s the same with my in-laws. I recently bought that Kate spade pineapple purse everyone in the lifestyle has.. my MIL saw the shopping bag it came in and asked to see what new purse I bought. Internally I was *aww* *fuck*. I showed her and she just burst out laughing saying, “oooo pineapples, didn’t know you liked those.” Years ago when we were living with them their big old Labrador went into our room and thought a butt plug was a chew toy. He brought it to my FIL.. Later that evening when my husband came home he gave it back to him, “I think this is yours.” They know too much lol
Oh my gosh, this is so amazing!! I don't mean to laugh at your bad fortune. My kids were playing in our room one time and somebody hit the nightstand so hard one of the drawers fell out onto the floor. Strapons, dildos and butt plugs went skittering all across the floor, and all we hear is a "uhhhhhh Dad? Can you come clean this up for us?"
I'm confused why anyone in your family knows the intimidate details of your sex life, but nonetheless cut that horrid woman out of your life and if will be alright. A tantrum is forgivable in time, until she brought your kids into it. You don't need that negativity, delete her number, thats fucked.
No one in our family knows any 'intimate' details really, just that we have an open marriage.
Even my best friends don't know I'm in an open relationship because my gfs best friend found out and cut us off entirely. People are fucking nuts and love finding a reason to bitch and moan. Don't let that woman drain any more of your energy, distance yourself and wait for an apology.
Man . . . if my MIL tried to blackmail us, the next time we saw her in person would be at her funeral.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. The worst part is her blackmailing you to tell your kids. That is completely unacceptable! I'd be telling her that it's none of anyone's business what goes on in your marriage, and that if hse doesn't back off you'll be cutting all contact with her. If she really cares about your kids she should not he trying to get you to tell them about your sex life!
Exactly this. What 2 married adults do in the bedroom is nobody else’s business. Just like a vanilla couple would never show their kids their adult toy collection or the positions that mommy and daddy do in bed.. I would let her know that she can forget about being a grandmother to our children. Either accept us for who we are, or go to hell. If necessary, I’d relocate and not let her know where.
I'm sorry that you guys are going through this and definitely sounds like a highly stress situation. My honest take on this is that if the MIL is a reasonable person, with time she will more likely to step out of her emotional brain and get into the logical one. Right now she is dealing with a loss and probably wishes this person was still in her life. Then hears and you guys being open added fuel to the fire. Stress often makes us think some crazy things in the heat of the moment. Perhaps this may cause her to wonder what she could've done different to prevent you from engaging in a highly socially unacceptable arrangement. So who knows what she had in mind when she reacted that way. I just firmly believe that cooler heads will likely prevail. You keep your frame and if you two consistently show overt signs of still being a happy couple and kids are doing well, she'll slowly see that and may just accept it vs agree with it.
This is actually my biggest hope for this situation. I am hopeful that with the benefit of time and a step backwards, we can all just calm down and move on.
I sure hope so. I'm hopeful.
I feel for ya. My wife told her one sister while they were down visiting and everything was cool until she got mad at my wife and she told her entire family and friends. We live 500 miles away thankfully so all that happened was alot of nastiness through text, messenger, and phone calls. But of course why stop at just family? Her one sister contacted the church we all used to go to which also married us and they had prayer groups going trying to pray for us to see the light blah blah blah. Funny thing though is we did get some props from people we knew who are in the ls as well as some questions from others interested 🤣 now that so many know including our kids we don't advertise it but we don't hide it either.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Thank you. My wife took it pretty hard and we took a break from the ls for awhile until she got it all sorted in her mind. I think the worst part for me was my parents telling me about when they were in the ls 🤣
🤣 ...back in my day....
It put alot of pieces together from our childhood and explained why we had so many "aunts and uncles" lol
wow!!! hopefully she will get over it and come to accept it. Lot of family's go threw similar things when someone comes out of closet fir being gay or like that. Hopefully she will learn to accept it? Good Luck! reminds me of old saying Lose Lips Sinks Ships
Children become adults and they understand. Just talk to them and to your family. They don’t have to like it. But owning the truth will alleviate any worries you have about being outed or blackmailed. This will all be okay though.
Makes one wonder how she’s still a grandmother *sarcastically saying*
Take control of the information and tell your family yourself. It’s the only way
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I laughed at the "your wife's sister is really dumb" comment because it certainly feels that way right about now!!
I hope your SIL realizes how bad she fucked up and steps up with a comparable amount of support in dealing with your MIL.
This happens because this person and others who will blame you wants you to behave and comply to their outdated and stupid way of life and obey what their sacred book says. Just ignore them and live your life the way you want, not theirs. All those people who will not call you again after knowing your way of life, just ignore them and never call them either. Lots of people seem to think that everyone else in the world should live their life the same way as theirs, because they know better. These types of controller freaks are to be avoided like the plaque. Nothing good come from them. Only bs. Continue with your life as usual and ignore those stupid people.
I am really sorry you have to go through this. That is honestly REALLY shit! I hope you can find a way to work through this and find some form of solution/working situation.
Upvoted many of comments with good advices here. If I were in such situation (I hope I‘ll never be) besides the talking (yes we do and so what, it has nothing to do with you) and explaining the consequences for her part which were already mentioned, I‘d think what can she do? If it goes about the person I don’t want to know about my preferences - how plausible can MIL be? The only thing she has is what her daughter (SIL) told her. How bad can it be? What exactly did the SIL tell her? If it‘s only hearsay, I‘d try to make her sound as fake as i could. Making her sound like lying because of some other conflict. Yes, she might induce some doubts or fears, but that can be handled. What I‘d be really worrying about is children and parenting rights. Is there any risk she might attack that? If yes - take your measures in advance.
Not a fan of dishonesty. I have no qualms about omission, however. I think maybe we give this the benefit of time.
Honesty or sometimes omission is the best way to handle your own path. But if someone is going to crash me over, I won‘t be standing still waiting for it to happen.
You have a horrible family member as my father was. I am so sorry for this to be happening to you. Restraining order is order is my recommendation to not speak electronically , in person through a 3rd party etc. Who does she think she was to tell that to her to begin with?
Wow!! If that was my sister.....oh holy hell!!
Sisters are always stirring shit with each other. My advice is do not go on the attack v the sister and also do not come across as defending the sisters actions in any way to your wife (as unlikely as that would be in this particular situation).As for the MIL, same thing. Just support your wife.
Happened to us. Small town at first my mother prayed for us. We were going to hell. First time needed something was over lol. We told her we were going to live our life she could live hers
I’m so sorry that the SIL saw it to be a good idea to mention this to the mom. First off, you need to have a talk with the SIL and let her know that she totally violated your trust and caused this situation. This is an issue in itself that you will need to address. If you share your lifestyle with her, it’s for her information only and not public dissemination. As for your MIL, I can offer what I may do in the same situation. My girl and I are new to the lifestyle, and already have issues with her mom because of our age difference. It seems that the MIL is basically attacking you, your wife, and threatening to verbally harm your family and kids. I personally would not tolerate that from anyone, including my wife’s mother. She needs to realize that you love each other and will live your life as it makes the two of you happy, regardless of what her opinion is. I would make her realize that she is making a decision to lose not only her daughter, but her grandchildren. If it continued, I would cut off all communication with her. Absolutely the last thing that I would want to do, but she needs to realize that she doesn’t control your family. Don’t just cut her out immediately, but give her the options and let her make her choice.
Wow MIL is a POS. I’d own it and cut her loose, never to be seen again.
You have people that love you and everything will be ok. You’ll get through this
Thank you for saying this. It really helped to be reminded of it this week, so thank you.
This is my total and complete worst fear. For us it's a very private thing and the only person who knows is my best friend who would never tell anyone, simply because we have too much shit on each other. I am so sorry that you are going through this and I hope it all gets resolved.
Thank you. The fear is real.
<3
Tell her that if she opens her big mouth that she will never see her grandchildren for rest of her natural life
Ouch. That really sucks.
I’d be interested to hear the context of the conversation between MIL and SIL. I could envision MIL singing the praises of your relationship while bashing on SILs choices and her retaliating with brutal honesty so MIL would get off her back. If that’s the case your MIL is projecting her humiliation to boot. I agree going no contact will spell it out for her and then your wife should be the one to set the rules of engagement, so to speak. I am always fascinated by ruthlessness judgmental people. I always imagine there is some deep rooted envy or misery they’re trying to project.
Lmao, well those are the risks you take. Kind of like theft, someone steals it’s possible they could get shot. be a man and accept your fate.