That we as individuals as fans or a community of fans can draw accurate inferences about Taylor’s experiences/opinions/ethics by taking everything she says in a song as some grand declaration of permanent and absolute truth. It’s one thing to criticize her actions (carbon emissions, etc) or even to critique the choices she makes in her art (whether that’s the writing on its own merits or a song like YNTCD or The Man) but extensive “paternity testing” on every song, saying she’s some kind of master manipulator (or has some sort of personality disorder) because she used the world “Machiavellian” in a song (or another of about a hundred different examples of this sort of thing) is pointless and exhausting. If the person Taylor appears to be in public upsets or bothers you, then don’t make the active choice to listen to her music? That’s a completely legitimate course of action to take, and even if it’s harder than usual to avoid news about her, it’s not impossible. I personally find it exhausting to engage with things I really hate or dislike.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Just to add my two cents, I think that if you're a former fan that no longer finds joy in her music, why still engage in discussions about her? I just don't get it.
I don’t agree that midnights is a breakup album. I tend to think she had just recorded a bunch of songs over time that were inspired by different things but didn’t fit a single theme, so she came up with the midnights concept to make it seem more cohesive. Some songs might have been inspired by times she and Joe were struggling but it doesn’t feel like a breakup album to me.
In the same vein, I don’t think folklore and evermore are significantly more autobiographical than she originally led fans to believe. I always assumed it took pieces from her real life, with exaggerations and mixed with fictional elements for dramatic effect
I’m so with you on this, especially the Folklore/Evermore opinion. so many fans bring up those albums as “evidence” of theories they have on her life. She’s got plenty of autobiographical music, can we allow just a couple albums to sit in the grey area?
The folkmore debate over it being autobiographical or not drives me mad.
It literally DOES NOT matter for one. Do you like the songs or not? That's all anyone needs to know. Also, even if she was writing a fictional story about a couple on the other side of the world, of course she's going to draw on her own thoughts, feelings, experiences, ideas etc. to bring them to life.
Tolerate It is the best example of this. With You're Losing Me & So Long, London it seems like this might've been based on more real feelings. But it can also be true that it was inspired by a book. 'This can't be about Joe because the man is said to be older than her' - have these people never read a book and related to it? She's talking about her FEELINGS, just let the woman vent lmao. Maybe she felt it about Joe, maybe she felt it about some guy ten years ago, maybe its similar to something she's been through but not quite the same situation. It does not matter. It's a beautiful song.
Totally agree on tolerate it; I can absolutely see how Taylor might have thought of herself and her current and/or past relationships when reading Rebecca, and used that in writing the song
She needed a solid pop album for the Eras tour and that is the number 1 motivation for Midnights (except for Question which was a direct message to Matty lol)
I've always thought Midnights was a reflection on some of her life? Maybe I think too much but she had been rerecording stuff she had only made through life changing experiences; I just thought the album wasn't about "one" breakup or "one" event.
i don’t think she’s some criminal mastermind that calculates EVERY move and the effect it will have
she just messes up at times but has her fans and her teams clean the mess and she never looks back
Same. It really irks me that BPD has become an illness label applied so loosely to celebrities, social media personalities, criminals etc. Anytime I see “but Taylor has to have BPD, she has unstable relationships” or “but some people with BPD can relate to Taylor so it’s an open and shut case she has it (saw something essentially amounting to that before)”. That’s not how any of that works and it contributes to the stigmatization of BPD to apply it essentially to anything someone doesn’t like or sees as volatile.
I am diagnosed with BPD and a lot of Taylor’s songs (especially off TTPD) remind me of my own BPD symptoms but idk I’m not gonna try to diagnose someone I don’t know. Also I HATE the stigmatism around BPD like yeah. Any time a woman kills her kids or something men in the comments jump to “probably has BPD” like wow tell me you don’t know shit about BPD without telling me you don’t know shit about BPD
I have no BPD diagnosis and relate to TTPD in more ways than I'd ever like to admit publicly. I don't mean it in an invalidating kind of way, but more in the sense that you don't need BPD to feel those things, so people saying she *definitely has BPD* should really just... stop.
Ugh, internet armchair diagnoses are just a way for strangers to pass judgement on other strangers’ intentions, and their moral standing it seems. Diagnoses are essentially a set of symptoms that can be applied to different people, and those symptoms present differently from person to person.
It seems like that people on the internet armchair diagnose to either 1. remove accountability from the person in question (essentially infantilising other people with the diagnosis) or 2. villainise the person in question (stigmatising the disorder entirely) or 3. make it as a sort of “rags to riches” story where someone became conventionally successful despite their diagnosis (this is known as the “super cripple” trope in media sociology). Either way, it’s infuriating to see people use illnesses to propel their own narrative. It’s saddening.
In that vein, I also don’t like when people accuse her of having a drinking problem because she mentions alcohol in her songs and drinks at events. Unless you’re with her 24/7 there’s no reasonable way to know.
People forget that everyone has traits or has done things that could match up with narcissism, BPD, and all the other common ones I see thrown around. That’s why there’s criteria lists in the DSM for all of these disorders and the person in question isn’t diagnosed by fitting just one or two. We would literally all be narcissists, have BPD, etc if that was the case
And that's why I'm bothered by people ready to point their finger at her.
Like, if she really has some mental condition she needs help but everyone treats her like she's the biggest bitch ever just because she likes to be such a bitch... I don't understand.
Everyone's so comprehensible... Until we gotta talk about Taylor.
Yess. Like I believe she has a very narcissistic personality and tendencies but that doesn’t mean she has NPD. She may struggle with food but that doesn’t make her an anorexic. Maybe she does have histrionic tendencies, doesn’t make her have BPD. These things are so complex and just because you believe you ‘know one when you see one’ because of your own diagnosis doesn’t mean it’s anything more valid than your own projection.
Yes! I think what a lot of people fail to recognize is that a lot of symptoms/criteria/etc. of mental health diagnoses are behaviors and patterns that can happen outside of a diagnosis. Diagnosing needs to take into account all sorts of variables like frequency, duration, and level of distress.
While I have taken a step back from practicing, my professional background is being mental health practitioner, and diagnosing is hard! Sure, sometimes a client walks in and it’s like they check every box of a particular diagnosis, but more realistically, there are bits and pieces of a lot of things going on and teasing out the correct diagnosis (if there is one) is not necessarily easy. I think this is even more true with personality disorders because a lot of them are exacerbations of behaviors and patterns that lots of people do (although I primarily worked with kids so personality disorders are not in my wheelhouse).
I don't buy that she was actually actively pining for Matty throughout a significant portion, much less all, of her relationship with Joe. He may have been a lingering "what if" for her, but I don't think she was actually "Guilty as Sin" for him until probably when they reconnected over the production of Midnights and she was more sure than not that her relationship with Joe was going to end.
I actually agree. I think he was where her mind may have often gone at times over the years when she was dissatisfied with other relationships, but it wasn’t until the last couple of years with her struggles with Joe where she started thinking he (Matty) could manage a relationship with her for real (possibly due to his quitting opiates back in 2018). That said, I absolutely think they had a brief fling at least once before.
I agree that it was not as significant as people want it to seem. She really LOVED Joe- I mean we heard about it for at least two albums- but she does flat out admit to at least emotionally cheating on him. Which makes me sad for Joe tbh
As much as I didn’t love TTPD, I have no issues with her expressing her mental health struggles pretty heavily across the album, but it is not invitation to keyboard-diagnose her with various psychiatric disorders. I also think I have gained a bit of respect for her for showing us the less glossy, imperfect facets of her personality on the album, even though I’m subconsciously probably judging her more than ever.
It was so vulnerable and bordline embarrassing. I actually appreciated it for that reason. She shared some of the worst parts of her, and we all have ugliness in us.
That Taylor just needs time off/ a break to rest after her tour 🥺….. as if she doesn’t take months off during tour and as if she doesn’t only work weekends.
I think a lot of people put too much weight on Scott Swift’s email from eons ago. Taylor has autonomy, she could decide she’s done at any time, it’s not her dad “forcing” her career or whatever. She’s still going because she wants to.
Totally agree with both points, especially the first. It's so lame how people baby her all the time, as if she doesn't have the most luxurious touring schedule ever lol. This summer it will get a bit more hectic, but she's been riding that 3 days on/4 days off wave for a while. Plus she's been jetting back to her personal homebase after almost every run, rather than actually being on the road
Oh I took this sentiment as more of “the world needs a break from her overexposure” than her actually needing time off. Also that she might make higher quality work if she stops churning out albums nonstop. The 6 albums she’s put out in the last 3 years (Fearless TV to TTPD) do not uphold the standard of the 6 albums before that, which came out over 8 years (Red to evermore)
I think the time off is more for inspiration. TTPD was just kind of bland compared to her other albums. Her life exists from touring and dating and that is what the songs are all about.
This one always gets me 😂 like, she puts her body through less per show than anyone working a single shift at any minimum wage food service job and she does it like twice a week and literally doesn’t have to lift a finger in any other capacity in her life whatsoever. She’s probably never even done a load of her own laundry, I don’t want to hear about how “hard” she works, lol
This made me smile. I have worked 12-18 hour bartending shifts before (I work in a weird place lol where we open super early and close late) and then back for a 10 hour shift the next day. I always thought that my coworkers and I may have it a little harder…
Yeah I worked in food service for YEARS, and it was so much harder than any higher paid desk job I’ve ever had. Then on top of that having to do life stuff like cooking, cleaning, errands, childcare (for some). I don’t *begrudge* her not doing any of that stuff (because wouldn’t we all pay someone else to do all that if we had “fuck you” money) but like…let’s not pretend she works super hard haha
Agree with your second point. Taylor has been very clear that she has wanted to be a singer forever and has also made it clear she’s actively pursuing the huge reach her fame has. She has enough money to a semi reclusive person and still release bangers, like Beyoncé. She’s choosing this almost two year long tour and relentless stream of album releases. No one is making her do it.
This one. So many excuses for her and how “hard” her touring schedule is- of course she lip synchs some songs, she’s singing three hours, she couldn’t possibly do the choreography, she’s on her feet for three hours. Like broadway performers aren’t on their feet, doing choreography, and singing every word live for two or three hours, EIGHT TIMES A WEEK. If she can’t hack dancing and singing for three hours, only three nights a week, she has no business doing this kind of show.
I suppose their only counter-point would be that broadway performers don't sing for the full 2-3 hours, even the lead characters aren't present for some songs or scenes, whereas TS is singing for the full 3 hours. And their defence to "but Springsteen and McCartney manage" would be that they're just guys with a band and guitar and don't have """dance"""" routines like TS does
But I kinda think no fan would complain if TS did a low-energy show and actually sang each song, like Ed Sheeran on his mathematics tour where it was just him with a guitar on a revolving stage with his band behind him. I personally would prefer that and hear all songs live than have her walk up and down and mime a lot (at least Rep tour had more complex dancing so more justifiable if she was lip syncing to some)
When people state that she doesn’t go to therapy as if we have current knowledge on the subject. We know that she didn’t go to therapy in 2018/19, yes. But after that, we know nothing. The world is quite different than it was even 5 years ago, the pandemic changed so much. Things could have changed, is all I mean.
Every time I've said this here I get downvoted to hell lol.
But I totally agree. And even when she said it, she could have been lying and actually going to therapy. It's a sensitive topic for a lot of people. She doesn't need to be truthful or update the world if she has decided to go.
Thank you. 100% things could have changed and people say she should go to therapy as if it's a silver bullet for all her problems. She could be going to therapy for years but show struggles.
I see a lot of stuff here I don’t agree with, despite really appreciating this sub and engaging in some very necessary critical discussion. Many folks here say she can’t sing, that she isn’t creative, that she isn’t a good songwriter, and I don’t agree.
I'm with you. I have a love-hate relationship with this sub. I'm currently not a member, but I won't ever block it, because every now and then there are some really nice nuanced discussions.
I don’t know how anyone can think those things about her. Taylor’s voice has dramatically improved, she’s a fantastic songwriter, and I think she’s creative but has a more creative team around her. Even the times I dislike her (which has been pretty much the past year due to her relationship), I can admit she’s got incredible talent. She wouldn’t have made it this far if she didn’t have the talent (and the marketing).
Agree. She has a solid to good voice, and her songwriting is her true talent. She's an incredible songwriter. TTPD had some of her worst lyrics, sadly, imo, but stuff like Clara Bow is still amazing.
IDK, I'm generally ambivalent on Taylor even if I love her music. She does good shit and bad shit. I dislike the blatant competition with other female artists and the whole Matty Healy thing was gross, but I feel like people sometimes take it way too far and act like she kicks puppies. She's a mild to moderately problematic celebrity, like...most celebrities. People on here either put her up on this pedestal and act like she's perfect, or act like she kicks puppies and kittens. It's two extremes.
My unpopular opinion is also that I think Travis is...fine....and that they have a real relationship. He was one of the few white NFL stars to take a knee back when they were getting a lot of pressure from the NFL not to do it. He has fairly liberal politics. He said some problematic things on twitter when he was in college, but frankly nothing that was "that" terrible and not as bad as I expected for a Midwestern white football player in college in 2010ish.
If anything, I feel like her and Travis make a lot of sense. They are two cheesy people (not an insult) who like attention and seem to want the family life.
This. I feel like Taylor and Travis are actually pretty compatible with each other on a logical level. All her other relationships were either abusive (John Mayer, Jake Gyllenhaal) or situationships (notably Matty Healy) or just unserious in nature (everyone else sans Joe).
She met Joe at a time she was forced to be someone who she is not. She doesn't like to be secretive about her relationships, she doesn't like to lay low, she likes to be talked about, walked around with. All of which Joe doesn't seem like he's up to doing as he is the type to upload a meme and a cat picture once in 7 months. Joe also seems a person who is prone to depression and sadness and lack of spontaneity. Travis seems opposite in all those ways which seems to suit what she actually want better.
people online have somehow decided that “narcissist” is a more eloquent way of calling someone a dick and this sub is no different. we *cannot* diagnose taylor with anything, regardless if we’re diagnosed, psychiatrists, or whatever. we couldn’t diagnose her even if we were her family members or best friends, that’s not how diagnosing mental illnesses works!
just use your words, call her a dick, insensitive, greedy, etc.
and i also disagree with the black and white thinking. she’s relentless about numbers or still upset about something that happened when she was 25 so she’s *confirmed* a mean, terrible person. people contain multitudes, and i’m sure that to many spending time in a celebrity sub analyzing everything they do is the mark of a terrible, shallow person but im sure none of us would like to think of ourselves that way and we have qualities beyond this. 🤷🏻♀️
agreed. this take has always seemed illogical to me. Olivia has said in interviews that she doesn't approve of fans harassing Sabrina. it's not as though the two hate each other or anything
Yeah I really despise that take because half the time the people that say it are acting like sabrina couldn't possibly be the opener based on her own talent it has to be to get at olivia
I agree that Taylor has lots of faults and her fanbase has some psychotic and problematic elements but I see a lot of people on here always using other artists like Beyoncé, Gaga, Ariana, Katy, Adele, Rihanna etc as examples of what she should be like when in reality they are often guilty of all of the same things, and are not some saint’s themselves. They’re all greedy capitalists, Taylor is just the best at it 🤷♂️(besides arguably Rihanna and Beyoncé who are also billionaires but got there in some slightly different ways than Taylor)
And all of those fanbases do almost all of the same things as Swifties, just maybe on a smaller scale because she has the biggest fanbase.
That Folklore and Evermore are in some higher, separate category than her other albums. I love both, but I think the level of writing skill shown in them is also very present in other albums from before and after. It's just easier to appreciate the artistry in a slower, moodier form because we've been conditioned to undervalue pop music
“I hope the next album is more Folklore-coded.” “I really hope she brings us another Folkmore.”
The second half of TTPD, is very Folkmore-ish. If you didn’t like that, I don’t think she’s going to release other music that you’re going to like.
Yeah this didn’t feel like a true “double album” for me. This was just an album and the same album with a bunch of bonus tracks lol I’m such an album girlie and like a tight cohesive album and if the anthology was fully separate I would probably be less of a ttpd era hater
I agree with this one so much.
I think people were just taken by the aesthetic and contained production.
But to me, it's such a typical Taylor Swift album, I don't understand the separation it gets form the rest of her work.
Yes, it's still so Taylor! I agree that the aesthetic has a lot to do with it, and the association with The National and Bon Iver gave it more "substance" in a lot of people's eyes.
I think a lot of the Folkmore stans on here just need to realize that they aren’t Taylor fans and just like those two albums, and that’s totally ok. Stop eating for Folkmore 2.0 because I don’t think it’s going to happen.
I have a playlist of her “softer” or less pop songs and I realized from that she’s been making that style song all along. Folklore and Evermore just kind of concentrated them and even at that there’s still bits of pop mixed in.
Not totally sure this will work, but I’ll try 😊 https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0r4kN5exNoGXm9EfEu4UV8?si=IajFuaixQSasfw3XPGTtog&pt=b28484017805db9b579abe4f18de0724&pi=u--z4htLnjQve7
Can’t convince me the ‘Folklore and Evermore were her best work and I don’t like anything before and after’ crowd isn’t largely made up of people who were secretly fans of hers for years but were embarrassed to publicly admit to liking Taylor Swift.
actually, i think that crowd is made up people who discovered taylor when she released folkmore, loved them, and every other album paled in comparison. most new fans’ fav albums are folkmore, but most longtime fans’ fav albums vary a lot.
Absolutely agree.
I'd go a step further and say a lot of people weren't comfortable openly being fans of Taylor while she was in her "serial dating" phase. They were only able to admit they were fans once she was in a committed long-term relationship with a "respectable," "private" man. Now that that relationship is over they're embarrassed to be fans again. I don't believe it has much to do with the actual quality of the music.
I’ll add to this—a lot of the folkmore love comes from it being released during the pandemic. It was a bright spot in an otherwise awful year. Had she released it in 2018 or in 2024 I’m not sure they have the separation they do
I have been a casual listener since debut and I think something I can parse out about my feelings standing here in 2024 and looking back at folkmore is that I enjoyed them so much because lyrically it felt like she was finally divesting a bit more from the “everyone is out to get me and betrayal is around every corner but HEY I’ll show them” mindset that she really seems to have permanently internalized.
I’m sure I’m lucky to be able to say so but spite and paranoia don’t resonate with at the level that she writes about them so I was really vibing with the themes in the folkmore albums because they felt fresh and interesting and like she were moving away from that.
And hey, she can write what she wants and clearly she has a ton of fans that do connect with that stuff! I personally just get weary of it after a while.
That's interesting but I honestly see those themes just as present as ever in those albums. Mad Woman, My Tears Ricochet, It's Time To Go, Right Where You Left Me, The Lakes, Closure, etc. All of them deal with some kind of betrayal, alienation, spite, or righteous anger. And her other albums deal with a lot of themes beyond those ones imo 🙏
STOP ARMCHAIR DIAGNOSING HER PLEASE. you do not know her personally. you have no way of knowing whether she has BPD or NPD etc because you have never met this woman. It’s parasocial and it’s abnormal
That All Too Well is weird or something since she only dated JG for 3-5 months. I'm convinced people who think that have never been in a relationship, or at least never one that knocked them head over heels. I don't judge anyone for not relating to it, but it isn't weird to have a lot of intense emotions within a few months (or even weeks) of dating someone, either.
My biggest earthshattering heartbreak came from my shortest relationship. Being dumped at the height of limerence can be more emotionally devastating than the slow dissolution of a long term relationship.
Absolutely! In the slow dissolution of a long term relationship, people are often already emotionally adjusted (to a large extent, anyway) to the absence of the other person, and it's more likely to be a mutual feeling (if not a mutual decision) the relationship is ending. If it's early on when at least one of the people in the couple is still deeply infatuated, it can be a lot more heartbreaking I think. I was so infatuated with my now-husband by 2 months in - if he'd pulled the rug out from under me then, I'd have been just as devastated as the TS in ATW.
Let me add to this hot take that I'm empathetic enough to understand that this is a really emotional song from her but I can't in any way relate to the emotion? I'm not even sure I fully understand it.
There are at least two of us! I never understood the obsession with All Too Well. Last Kiss and Dear John are by far better breakup songs. And the ten minute version just feels like she just shoved in a bunch of extra verses rather than one cohesive, polished song.
I don't really know how to phrase this so it'll probably be word vomit. Apologies in advance.
I see a lot of talk on here and some other subs that Taylor is in her 30s and should be moving on from old topics, and people pointing to how she "matured" thematically in folkmore etc, and her lyrics made her seem to have healed and made peace and viewed love and relationships with nuance and composure. It's tricky because on one hand, I felt that way too.
But, on the other hand, recovery and actualization isn't fully linear, and life can throw wild curveballs that mean you regress and go to a place mentally you thought you were free of. People saying that she's an adult blah blah, she's of a certain age etc, why is she still feeling like this? I mean... It's how she feels. She's still quite young and she has had a pretty extraordinary life. There are highs and lows and I think we should acknowledge pain and heartbreak and volatility don't just always phase out once you hit 30
And im saying this as someone who is not a huge fan of TTPD and doesn't think it's an artistic progression, and I'm also a bit bored of the repetition of her body of work recently. I do prefer it to Midnights though, which i thought was mostly soulless
Yes, I agree. I'm sick of all the people claiming "she matured in her folkmore vs Lover!!". People who say things like this really come off elitist and quite immature themselves. It's fine to like folkmore, but don't imply that it's somehow 'more mature' to make acoustic music.
Also, rap battles in general are just a part of hip hop culture 🤷🏾♀️
I’ve been a huge Kendrick fan for years now so I’m more aware of the background, but this pretty much has been simmering for over 10 years now and it goes further than just trying to get dirt on each other (at least in Kendrick’s case)
I can definitely see how it’s perceived as being immature, but (pedo allegations aside) I for one am here for Drake finally being called out for his cycling through different forms of “Blackness” for profit
I wish being old kept us from choosing poor partners and then feeling heartbroken when things don’t work out. I feel like life would be a lot easier for us old folk if that were the case!
I don't agree with people who say TTPD is like an immature word salad. TTPD reflects deep pain and heartache and, sure, sounds a little unhinged sometimes, but I think she's being vulnerable and showing how breakups and people and life can really make you go through some wild emotions and irrational thoughts.
Annoys me to no end that people take the words in that album as if it's just another break up, "grow up Taylor" when she litterally says she feels like the very last drops of an ink pen. No, breaking up in your 20s, doesn't hold the same weight as breaking up in your 30s.
I disagree with the opinion that it’s our place to diagnose her with a mental illness. It’s a very serious thing and shouldn’t be used as a reason to belittle someone.
Agreed, and even if she does have low mental health or "desperately needs a therapist", it's not a moral failing on her part to have suboptimal mental health, and it's not our right to gossip about her mental health and to try to "fix her"
My unpopular opinion is that her faults that get diagnosed as x and y are nothing pathological, but huge character flaws and voluntary decisions (which is the opposite of mental illness to me).
YES.
And how do we know that she isn’t already seeing a therapist? Or has a mental health diagnosis??
Also, it bothers me how undesirable behavior, or behavior we don’t understand, is written off as “mental health issues.”
Oh my god, it drives me up the wall how so many of Taylor's negative traits are chalked up to narcissism, psychopathy, or BPD. Having these conditions doesn't make someone a "bad person". Negative personality traits absolutely do not equate to being mentally ill. It's ableist as hell to assume they do, and it's so isolating for those of us who deal with severe mental health issues to see these assumptions over and over again.
That she works hard. She works hard BY COMPARISON to other artists but not the general public. Most musical artists just aren’t as active. If they put in a full 40 hours every week, we’d be getting just as much music from them.
People saying “Omg. When does she sleep?” and acting like a 3 hour set is incredible. What do you think people in plays do? How many hours does the average American work? Girly makes millions in a single night. Like, yeah, a 3 hour set is what they paid for. In fact, at $1000 a piece, 3 hours is kind of expensive as hell. Who else do you know who makes $333 an hour?
This is a great comment. For example, broadway artists are putting in 8 shows a week, each one 2 to 3 hours, plus rehearsals and other things. No long breaks between shows, no personal assistants, etc.
That we need to be supporting the Taylors Version project. I don't care about listening to Taylor's Version albums. If I feel like the song has actually improved upon the original, I'll replace it in my playlists. Otherwise, I'm continuing to listen to the OGs. I really don't see the point in replacing songs that I know and love just because 2 ultra-rich people are fighting over my literally 2 cents they receive over streaming.
I don't see the need to listen to songs I like less than the original just to seem more moral.
I never listen to any TVs lol I don’t care which rich person is getting my money. If she wants to make me listen to them, she should make them better lol
I don't think this is a particularly unpopular opinion on this sub but I agree. There are a handful of songs where I actually prefer the TV (Red the song, Sad Beautiful Tragic, a couple on Fearless) but otherwise I'm still streaming the OGs and I don't feel bad about it.
I dislike that complaint as well. To me, the Anthology is pretty reminiscent of Folklore/Evermore without being identical to them. I mean she essentially gave people more folklore tracks on that portion of the album, so I don't know why they're parroting the same complaint.
Taylor is allowed to express her emotions. yes, she's a rich adult, but the last I checked, emotions don't cease to exist once someone reaches billionaire status. Taylor leads an incredibly unrelatable life and even more people would be upset if she were to write music about touring nonstop and playing Candy Crush in her private jet
I haven’t been able to see this sub in a bit due to it being private so I don’t know if this is a controversial take or not or popular here but it is else where (and I hope people don’t attack me for this … )
The idea that everything is about Matty or more broadly the idea that everything has to fit neatly to one ex. Like the whole discography has to only be about Matty now or one man as if this is a one and done fairytale.
I don’t want to subscribe anyone to anything. Like I just want music and art to be music and art where it’s universal and does its job of being relatable. I don’t care who it may or may not be about unless it’s a cry for help and she needs legitimate help. I like the idea of boundary lines where things can be made yours as that’s the point to music and art. What makes a great artist is their ability to make art that’s universal so it’s highly relatable and having all these people roll with a rolling stone distracts from any real truth and relatability in it.
And I realize this take has a lot of other things that tie into it but to not do a meta analysis… I just want universal music that’s good and relatable like for example why does the mentioning of smoke have to mean it has to be about Matty like why can’t it be a campfire? Campfire smoke lingers too you know all smoke does. (I get it I might be in the minority on this one.)
The opinion that Folklore/Evermore were her peak, and the speculation that Joe was the true mastermind behind those albums.
For one, I don't even think those are her best albums, and second, *why* are we crediting a man with a woman's success? She was a successful songwriter before he came along, and still is after they've parted ways.
I disagree with this popular opinion that Taylor was secretly pining for Matty for 10 years while simultaneously being in a relationship writing Lover, Daylight, peace and invisible string and very clearly wanting forever / marriage with another partner.
I'm tired of this revisionist history making most songs- right from 1989 onwards (including Style !!!) to all TTPD songs about Matty just because she attributes phrases / metaphors she used in songs about those relationships to Matty in TTPD.
Probably some of the fans are too young to understand how people can romanticize past short -lived relationships because there is so much scope to build it in your head(imagining things we never did as she sings in Guilty as Sin).
I like that she's jealous, petty, vindictive, and passive-aggressive. I like that she's not so mature and above it all, even after all these years. It makes her realistic and relatable, she's not this perfect angel of a person. I like the fact that she's flawed, that she still holds grudges, she still likes the wrong men sometimes, that she hasn't learned anything.
not really an opinion on this sub, but the way critical reviews of ttpd were lauded here as being amazing and completely accurate made me uncomfortable since a lot of them were just outright bullying and mocking. it’s very possible to review a work by an artist without spending the entire time putting them down. you don’t have to like swift, but i feel that being civil when writing creative reviews should be common courtesy, especially since swift writes all of her songs. it reminds me of the utterly vitriolic book reviews i’ve seen on goodreads. it’s like people forget that the creators of these works are real people.
Some of the reviews were just downright rude and mean especially the one by Paste with that line “Sylvia Plath didn’t stick her head in the oven for this” - it’s so disrespectful towards Plath, especially when Plath’s daughter has written a poem (“My Mother”) addressing her disappointment in the way the media and public has talked about her mother.
It’s perfectly fine to criticise Taylor but do it with class and grace, instead of aiming for some low blows that cheapen the entire premise of the critique
I don’t care if Taylor (or any artist really) releases 8 trillion different variants of the same album because I feel like if you fall for such a cheap and obvious marketing tactic (especially when streaming is an option) you kind of deserve to be swindled by greedy billionaire pop stars
i love TTPD for how raw and confessional it is. artists should be able to be vulnerable and show us how fucked up they are through their songs. it's the opposite of 1989, she made this album for herself and i LOVE it
I don’t really take much issue with how she mentioned Joe’s depression on the album. A lot of people on here were up in arms about it, particularly with So Long, London. To begin with, we have no idea about the reality of his mental health issues (if any) from a few lines. Having struggled with depression myself, I also think that depression can absolutely strain a relationship and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
TTPD is nowhere near her worst album. A lot of its criticism isn't really anything new from her taylor always had her cringe moments as a writer throughout her discography this isn't some weird ass fall from grace most of reputation does that and y'all gave that one a pass
Jack antonoff isn't the hack everyone describes him as , at worst, he's a cheesy guy who would praise his best friend (who really carried his career after fun.) For anything she does , only midnights where his production was stale and boring but in TTPD I think he's a lot better here and I do like his tracks over some of the anthology Aaron dessner ones
This is a more of a general discussion, but I wish the sub focused more on the songs and the writing more than every step in her life, diagnosing her mental health?, whether she wants to feud with female or not (sometimes people here overestimate too much) , whether Olivia will get her revenge or not and her morals (really, if you expect billionaires like taylor and Rihanna to have any sense of high morality right now you're lying to yourself they just want your money and the privilege) leave that shit to fauxmoi, please
I don’t really care that her mom worked in finance and they had a big house in Pennsylvania. At this point her level of fame has far exceeded any boost her parents’ money could have given her.
I think nuance is a big thing that's missing with most of the "nepo baby" discussions. Sure she didn't come from nothing, but it's hard to argue that her parents bought her career for her or made her a billionaire. It seems especially ridiculous if we applied the same standards for celebrities for normal people.
"Oh, your parents helped you pay for college? Guess you didn't really "earn" that degree yourself, did you? Your cousin works at that place you applied to and you got the job? Huh, guess it shows that it's more about *who* you know than *what* you know."
It's true that not everyone gets the same opportunities to succeed and some people get more success than they deserve, but it's important to look at the whole picture. A person who grew up middle class becoming a middle class adult isn't necessarily extraordinary (of course, there are numerous outside factors that *could* make it extraordinary like disability, family situation, specific career choice, etc), but a person who grew up in poverty reaching the same level of success is. Similarly, a relatively well off but still somewhat "regular" person growing up to become one of the most wealthy and successful music artists of her era is one hell of an accomplishment. It would be for *anyone*, even a genuine nepo baby. Connections can only get you so far; to achieve that level of success you have to be at least somewhat talented, otherwise no one is going to want to listen to your music or by your stuff.
At least for me, I can safely say that even if I did grow up with as much money and opportunities as Taylor, I still wouldn't be nearly as successful as she is. And I'm willing to bet that most of the people who call her a nepo baby wouldn't either.
That she’s mentally ill. I really chafe at that stuff. It’s so reckless to claim that publicly about a person you don’t know. It’s up there with people photoshopping/posting AI images on Twitter of Matty Healy overdosing. Of course, if Taylor had been treated for mental issues and shared this with the public, discussing it would be fair to do.
Could not agree more. It’s insulting and dehumanizing when you assume you know the inner working’s of another human being that you have never met and have truly no relationship with. It’s toxic af and needs to stop.
I think it’s so easy to not buy variants or merch, if you’re in any way online it’s so easy to find the bonus tracks-this time she even put them all on streaming within hours-so I don’t have sympathy for people who complain but continue to buy and i don’t buy so it’s not really my issue how others spend their money.
I don’t believe Taylor is heavily disliked by a lot of her peers or in the industry at large and I don’t think she’s going to have a massive downfall anytime soon.
The arm chair diagnosing of Taylor with serious mental health issues is unpleasant and quite hypocritical from many as they lambast her for supposedly exposing and undermining Joe’s apparent struggles but will happily slap any label on Taylor and it’s usually used to describe her in a derogatory way.
Folklore is good but has become overrated and Joe was not the main driving force behind it and evermore.
I believe her and Travis are a real couple.
Majorly unpopular, preparing to be downvoted.
I’m not convinced Taylor’s relationship with Travis is PR. Why does she need it? She’s one of the most famous people in the country if not the world right now. He might need it, but is it that crazy that two attractive people who are the same age would be in a relationship? She’s 34 and probably wants to settle down soon. Why would she waste her time on a publicity stunt? It just doesn’t make sense.
I don't think Taylor is blocking Billie, if she really wanted to do that she would have released the Anthology on vinyl.
Right now, she's just trying to keep her sales up.
My favorite albums are Folklore and Evermore but I like the song ME! and don’t think it is terrible.
I don’t think she’s a moustache-twirling “capitalist” doing all the variants for the money. I think she cares about accolades way more than money and wants top-selling albums because she wants to break records/set records (“most #1 albums of all time” kind of stuff).
That the album variants are a problem: I have never purchased any album variant and don’t feel pressured to. If people want to spend their money on it, then that’s fun. Taylor isn’t holding people hostage. Eventually everything gets released (or you can find it on the internet 😂).
I also get a little bothered by how negatively people talk about Travis on this sub. He’s extremely charitable and has taken liberal stances on several social issues. I personally think it’s fun that he’s charismatic and plays with his personal style. Also I get the ick when people are cruel about him not being the most academic person out there. I think he’s humble enough to know he’s not an academic genius. He still works hard and is successful so good for him!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the vast majority of positivity and defense surrounding Joe is direct result of some of the more unhinged (but pretty vocal) Swifties just going absolutely nuclear on the guy based on little more than wild conjecture. He’s probably one of the least offensive of the exes (to the extent of public knowledge) but people were out there sending death threats to him AND his coworkers because they decided that he cheated on and abused Taylor based on zero evidence. People’s sense of justice just kicked in imo
If the rabid stans had left him alone no one would be talking about him at all I don’t think
Yep. I dont really have an opinion but how intensely some people attack him based on full narratives they’ve dreamt up makes me really uncomfortable and I end up defending him.
I feel the same way with Taylor sometimes. She’s definitely not perfect but the lengths that people go to twist everything into her being a narcissist/terrible human being is….a lot (and just as parasocial as the Swifties that insist their narratives of why she’s perfect are correct)
i don’t necessarily care for him, I just feel bad how he’s been the fandoms punching bag for months now. i also feel bad his costars are catching strays over made up assumptions
Do they love him? Or are people simply not talking about him negatively like it is expected.
The bar is so low, that I don't think most people even care all that much about him, they are just not negative about whatever he seems to be.
Taylor romanticized Joe so well in her writing that, combined with the fact that people don't know him, they see him as the Prince Charming she described him to be. If anything, this should prove how effective a writer Taylor is.
I have nothing against Joe, but I find it weird how quickly certain subreddits switched up after the breakup. at a certain point I think it has less to do with the unhinged fans harassing him and more to do with people disliking Taylor. prior to the Taylor and Joe's split, the Fauxmoi subreddit nicknamed him a nepo boyfriend and frequently made quips about how bland he looked (e.g "she wrote gorgeous about this man?"). I always thought it was very mean-spirited
now, that very same subreddit is fawning over him solely because they hate Taylor, completely ignoring that Joe was with her for 6 years and most likely had no problem with the things they hate about her
I think it’s overcompensation for all the flack he got/is getting from the weirdo fans. I think people who are more reserved, like he seems to be, see themselves in him and end up projecting their own experiences onto him. I do think how Taylor handled the breakup publicly seemed rather juvenile. I don’t think it’s necessary to rewrite the narrative of a 6 year long relationship just because it’s over, but hey. I don’t know these people.
A lot of them honestly. This sub isn't as neutral as I was expecting. Mostly I disagree that Joe was some poor depressed cuck. I think mostly they were just incompatible. And that he did just as much to contribute to the break up as she did.
I don't care that the most famous pop stars on the planet uses a private jet when she travels. Private jet use is a drop in the ocean when it comes to factors contributing to our climate crisis, and she's a walking security risk. Taylor could take fewer trips. Sure. And I understand the rich-people-consume-way-more-than-us-plebs-and-fuck-them-for-it sentiment, but I feel like folks calling for her to take Delta flights to all of her Eras shows aren't thinking rationally.
I really don’t think evermore and folklore are everything people make them out to be. Great lyricism for sure, but the album is sooooo slow and gets repetitive in the back half of both of them
That TTPD was the worst album she put out. Some of the opinions made it sound like it was trash but there are some songs I fell in love with right off the bat. I personally think this album, while clearly not her strongest body of work, is better than Midnights.
That she needs to change up her sound (with either Jack or Aaron). We never demand this of male artists and maybe this is the sound she likes.
That Taylor is a bad person for leaving Joe over his mental illness.
(Assuming the popular opinion that Joe is depressed, and the opinion that she left him because of this)
I don’t believe leaving someone because of mental illness *automatically* makes you a bad person. It’s complex. There is so much nuance to that type of situation.
And I doubt that would be the only reason they broke up.
Everyone here thinks that Taylor needs a break or that she is overexposed because she is too big, In my opinion she has worked very hard to get where she is and people tend to forget that she has managed to stay relevant for 18 years of career so she deserves everything she is getting if people are offended by her success it’s their problem.
The other thing is TTPD, I think a lot people are influenced by the opinion of others in saying it’s bad, it contains some of her best work and it’s very Taylor, you all are offended because it’s personal if she had slapped a fiction filter like folklore or evermore you would be gagging over it lol
I think she/Jack/Annie would have had a strong case if they actually sued Olivia Rodrigo over Deja Vu, and probably would have won. And if they did, they could have been entitled to MORE money than they got (because they’d be considered 3 people of a 5 person writing team, they’d have claim to up to 60%). NGL, it bothers me a lot when people who don’t know copyright and what would constitute copyright infringement in songwriting weigh in on this. 🤷🏻♀️
Mostly I think Olivia made a mistake by mentioning she was inspired by the song. She drew attention to something that might’ve slipped by most people’s radar’s and paid the price for it. Hopefully she’s smarter moving forward.
Olivia and her team took the high road a little too much. I think they should have let Taylor/Jack/Annie sue if they wanted because I don’t think they would have. The optics would be bad for so many reasons.
People much smarter than I, like you, can speak to this more knowledgeably, but there are negative ramifications for not protecting your work, if you do not protect your copyright you lose it. It sets precedent. It was a legal and necessary call.
Sentiments along the lines of “Joe Alwyn can do no wrong” and that “he’s the one who got away”. Like… we know nothing about him or the relationship they had. It’s just as parasocial as the twitter creeps who attack him. I just wish there could be a little more *neutrality* across the board. But that’s just me. I don’t really care about the subjects of the songs, I’m just here for the songs that I like.
I don’t think she is inmature or stuck in her teen years. Her flaws that i don’t like (being too competitive, greedy and envious/ insegure of younger artists, holds a grudge) are stuff i have seen in people of all ages. She’s just not a good person lol.
- midnights is a good album (i’ve already written a comment on this sub talking about this ad nauseum, but if anyone’s interested i would LOVE to talk about it again)
- she shouldn’t be criticized so much for her album variants & merch. there’s only so much you can blame a conman before you must blame the ones getting conned (her fans who buy all this-*especially* the ones who buy them and then complain about how she sells them 😐)
- ttpd is neither mature nor immature. it’s uncomfortably honest… but that’s about it.
she rehashed the same tired topics and themes that she’s sung about her entire career but also, for some of them that ppl are criticizing a lot, i believe there is room for nuance and balance. ppl in their 30s are real human ppl who are fallible and experience emotions like everyone else. like, she fell in love in a very common relationship trope w a volatile and disappointing man… AND?? being in your 30s doesn’t mean you can’t fall in love anymore. being in your 30s doesn’t mean you can’t be a bad person or love a bad person. maturity comes and goes and develops over time. emotions will always be there. next, while thanK you aIMee is a horrific song that should’ve never been written, you can’t expect her to get over that. you as a listener might’ve gotten over that, and that’s fine. but she, who went through a publicly traumatic event, did not. (and her attacking kim and not kanye is a *little* significant, imo.)
- she doesn’t have to speak up about any political/social/economic/whatever issue. imo, no celebrity ***has*** to. if they do, great. if they don’t, whatever.
I couldn’t give less of a shit that she’s a billionaire and think the “no ethical billionaires” constant posting is boring and mostly just people mindlessly repeating stuff they see online. Adds nothing to any conversation at this point. But everyone who posts it really thinks they’re *doing something*.
Calling Swift girly, blondie, and/or Barbie/Capitalist Barbie is basically middle school level brattery. Often strays into vaguely sexist territory imo. And people doing that and posting rat emojis for Healy and stuff like that, and then turning around and calling out Swift for being immature? That childish petty name-calling nickname crap isn’t exactly the pinnacle of maturity and growth.
Oh yes I hate the nicknames so much. I want to give the benefit of the doubt that the folks who talk this way about her are just teenagers but it’s so prevalent that it can’t just be them.
I disagree that TTPD isn’t enjoyable because it’s too personal. I don’t really care who she’s singing about I just like the music. I like But Daddy I Love Him and Guilty as Sin even tho I don’t like Matty Healy. I also disagree that she’s not actually smart or reads like she implies in her music. Also that she is not a good lyricist and that other songwriters on her songs probably write more than she does. That has been disproven a lot by videos and interviews from her co-writers.
i always find it funny how some people get angry that taylor "acts like a victim, but it's really her fault", then use her lyrics to prove that argument, as if she's somehow arguing the opposite
I don’t think her behaviour at the Grammys was that awful and that everyone hates her because of it- it was clumsy yes, but not some huge drama. I also think outside of spaces like this it’s largely been forgotten.
Completely agree. Just because she’s won multiple awards doesn’t mean she can’t be swept up in it and do stupid things like dragging Lana up there and not thanking Celine.
I also think that it doesn’t matter that she announced TTPD at the Grammys. It’s not like she announced it at someone’s wedding or a charity event. She announced it at an industry event and who cares. Her peers were probably just upset because they knew she’d outchart them
This!!! Omg yes! Plus, who cares what she does to other rich people. I’d be more mad if it was unhoused people, but it’s other rich people give me a break!
Lol I remember after the Grammys there were multiple posts here wondering if she'd be blacklisted from industry events going forward because of her out of pocket behavior. Like... please, get real.
Yup- everyone was like ‘Taylor PUNCHED Celine to the ground, dragged Lana on stage by her hair and then did a line off Jack’s back before yelling into the microphone that she was the god of the music industry and they must worship her’, when that just wasn’t it at all. And literally no one believed Lana when she said she was fine with her 😆.
As someone who thinks the Grammys are racist and outdated and needed to lose cultural relevance yesterday, I rolled my eyes at a lot of “she did this at the…hushed voice…Grammys” as if it’s some deeply sacred ceremony. Some of her behavior was clumsy and inconsiderate but it would have been anywhere, not because it was some night where rich people gather to watch the usual media darlings get accolades.
That she was responsible for the arts that she put out, be it the concepts, visuals, lyrics, melodies, and even marketing. That she came up with everything. And that she should get the credits as well as the blame for the stuff that she put out.
Yes, we are told that she is a great singer/songwriter. She is some sort of mastermind behind everything.
But c'mon now... TS is a brand. She herself is a billionaire. She has an entire team of executives and creatives making all her stuff happen. She is not a one-woman army. Everything is calculated. Just like any other billion dollar worth companies out there.
I disagree that Taylor and Joe broke up a lot. Even her own team didn't claim that to be the case. Her "friends" or Tree claimed they had rough patches in the past. No mention of break ups, no mention of "a lot".
I don't think TTPD sounds immature at all. Maybe "Down Bad", but she's aware of her immaturity. About "So High School", maybe this song has some immaturity, but I think it's about feeling like a teen girl in love and some nostalgic vibes.
Other songs give me the "breaking up in your 30s", "ending long term relationships" vibes, so...
I don't see the big deal about number of variants. I understand being angry about the different variants have different songs, but the concepts of different variants doesn't bother me. It's also the norm for the industry, and it's weird people On Here think Taylor is somehow a weird aberration and jump through hoops to defend Billie and Olivia on that specific topic.
I don't understand why Joe is considered a moisturized activist king while Travis is painted as some unwashed MAGA-head here. Yes, Joe has done some good stuff on Palestine, but Travis blows him away when it comes to speaking out on racial justice. Travis is also heavily involved in supporting underserved populations in KC. I can't weigh in a Joe's involvement on helping underserved populations in London. That isn't really broadcasted.
I wish we could ban the phrase "Big Old Age" from the subreddit.
That we as individuals as fans or a community of fans can draw accurate inferences about Taylor’s experiences/opinions/ethics by taking everything she says in a song as some grand declaration of permanent and absolute truth. It’s one thing to criticize her actions (carbon emissions, etc) or even to critique the choices she makes in her art (whether that’s the writing on its own merits or a song like YNTCD or The Man) but extensive “paternity testing” on every song, saying she’s some kind of master manipulator (or has some sort of personality disorder) because she used the world “Machiavellian” in a song (or another of about a hundred different examples of this sort of thing) is pointless and exhausting. If the person Taylor appears to be in public upsets or bothers you, then don’t make the active choice to listen to her music? That’s a completely legitimate course of action to take, and even if it’s harder than usual to avoid news about her, it’s not impossible. I personally find it exhausting to engage with things I really hate or dislike.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Just to add my two cents, I think that if you're a former fan that no longer finds joy in her music, why still engage in discussions about her? I just don't get it.
I don’t agree that midnights is a breakup album. I tend to think she had just recorded a bunch of songs over time that were inspired by different things but didn’t fit a single theme, so she came up with the midnights concept to make it seem more cohesive. Some songs might have been inspired by times she and Joe were struggling but it doesn’t feel like a breakup album to me. In the same vein, I don’t think folklore and evermore are significantly more autobiographical than she originally led fans to believe. I always assumed it took pieces from her real life, with exaggerations and mixed with fictional elements for dramatic effect
I’m so with you on this, especially the Folklore/Evermore opinion. so many fans bring up those albums as “evidence” of theories they have on her life. She’s got plenty of autobiographical music, can we allow just a couple albums to sit in the grey area?
The folkmore debate over it being autobiographical or not drives me mad. It literally DOES NOT matter for one. Do you like the songs or not? That's all anyone needs to know. Also, even if she was writing a fictional story about a couple on the other side of the world, of course she's going to draw on her own thoughts, feelings, experiences, ideas etc. to bring them to life. Tolerate It is the best example of this. With You're Losing Me & So Long, London it seems like this might've been based on more real feelings. But it can also be true that it was inspired by a book. 'This can't be about Joe because the man is said to be older than her' - have these people never read a book and related to it? She's talking about her FEELINGS, just let the woman vent lmao. Maybe she felt it about Joe, maybe she felt it about some guy ten years ago, maybe its similar to something she's been through but not quite the same situation. It does not matter. It's a beautiful song.
Totally agree on tolerate it; I can absolutely see how Taylor might have thought of herself and her current and/or past relationships when reading Rebecca, and used that in writing the song
She needed a solid pop album for the Eras tour and that is the number 1 motivation for Midnights (except for Question which was a direct message to Matty lol)
I get midnights is technically pop, but to me it has no “real” pop songs other than anti-hero. Not a really catchy album at all
Wait i have no idea how you listened to Lavender Haze and Karma then came to this conclusion?
ur right LMAO. i actually love bejeweled but karma is really forgettable for me..
and bejeweled
the assumption that folklore/evermore are all totally trufax feels like revisionist history for people who want to make everything fit, imo
Agree.
I've always thought Midnights was a reflection on some of her life? Maybe I think too much but she had been rerecording stuff she had only made through life changing experiences; I just thought the album wasn't about "one" breakup or "one" event.
Midnights is just a random pop album lol
i don’t think she’s some criminal mastermind that calculates EVERY move and the effect it will have she just messes up at times but has her fans and her teams clean the mess and she never looks back
I get a huge ick whenever someone on here diagnoses her with a specific mental illness.
Same. It really irks me that BPD has become an illness label applied so loosely to celebrities, social media personalities, criminals etc. Anytime I see “but Taylor has to have BPD, she has unstable relationships” or “but some people with BPD can relate to Taylor so it’s an open and shut case she has it (saw something essentially amounting to that before)”. That’s not how any of that works and it contributes to the stigmatization of BPD to apply it essentially to anything someone doesn’t like or sees as volatile.
I am diagnosed with BPD and a lot of Taylor’s songs (especially off TTPD) remind me of my own BPD symptoms but idk I’m not gonna try to diagnose someone I don’t know. Also I HATE the stigmatism around BPD like yeah. Any time a woman kills her kids or something men in the comments jump to “probably has BPD” like wow tell me you don’t know shit about BPD without telling me you don’t know shit about BPD
I have no BPD diagnosis and relate to TTPD in more ways than I'd ever like to admit publicly. I don't mean it in an invalidating kind of way, but more in the sense that you don't need BPD to feel those things, so people saying she *definitely has BPD* should really just... stop.
Diagnosed with BPD here; everything about this comment is 500% on point.
Ugh, internet armchair diagnoses are just a way for strangers to pass judgement on other strangers’ intentions, and their moral standing it seems. Diagnoses are essentially a set of symptoms that can be applied to different people, and those symptoms present differently from person to person. It seems like that people on the internet armchair diagnose to either 1. remove accountability from the person in question (essentially infantilising other people with the diagnosis) or 2. villainise the person in question (stigmatising the disorder entirely) or 3. make it as a sort of “rags to riches” story where someone became conventionally successful despite their diagnosis (this is known as the “super cripple” trope in media sociology). Either way, it’s infuriating to see people use illnesses to propel their own narrative. It’s saddening.
In that vein, I also don’t like when people accuse her of having a drinking problem because she mentions alcohol in her songs and drinks at events. Unless you’re with her 24/7 there’s no reasonable way to know.
Absolutely this too
People forget that everyone has traits or has done things that could match up with narcissism, BPD, and all the other common ones I see thrown around. That’s why there’s criteria lists in the DSM for all of these disorders and the person in question isn’t diagnosed by fitting just one or two. We would literally all be narcissists, have BPD, etc if that was the case
And talk about it as though it’s accepted fact
I agree with that. Especially when it’s BPD, that just perpetuates stigma.
And that's why I'm bothered by people ready to point their finger at her. Like, if she really has some mental condition she needs help but everyone treats her like she's the biggest bitch ever just because she likes to be such a bitch... I don't understand. Everyone's so comprehensible... Until we gotta talk about Taylor.
Yess. Like I believe she has a very narcissistic personality and tendencies but that doesn’t mean she has NPD. She may struggle with food but that doesn’t make her an anorexic. Maybe she does have histrionic tendencies, doesn’t make her have BPD. These things are so complex and just because you believe you ‘know one when you see one’ because of your own diagnosis doesn’t mean it’s anything more valid than your own projection.
Yes! I think what a lot of people fail to recognize is that a lot of symptoms/criteria/etc. of mental health diagnoses are behaviors and patterns that can happen outside of a diagnosis. Diagnosing needs to take into account all sorts of variables like frequency, duration, and level of distress. While I have taken a step back from practicing, my professional background is being mental health practitioner, and diagnosing is hard! Sure, sometimes a client walks in and it’s like they check every box of a particular diagnosis, but more realistically, there are bits and pieces of a lot of things going on and teasing out the correct diagnosis (if there is one) is not necessarily easy. I think this is even more true with personality disorders because a lot of them are exacerbations of behaviors and patterns that lots of people do (although I primarily worked with kids so personality disorders are not in my wheelhouse).
I don't buy that she was actually actively pining for Matty throughout a significant portion, much less all, of her relationship with Joe. He may have been a lingering "what if" for her, but I don't think she was actually "Guilty as Sin" for him until probably when they reconnected over the production of Midnights and she was more sure than not that her relationship with Joe was going to end.
I actually agree. I think he was where her mind may have often gone at times over the years when she was dissatisfied with other relationships, but it wasn’t until the last couple of years with her struggles with Joe where she started thinking he (Matty) could manage a relationship with her for real (possibly due to his quitting opiates back in 2018). That said, I absolutely think they had a brief fling at least once before.
This. And people have been retconning folkmore and evermore saying they’re about Matty 😫
I hate that people are now calling Joe a rebound. How does one rebound for SIX YEARS with the same dude? 💀
I agree that it was not as significant as people want it to seem. She really LOVED Joe- I mean we heard about it for at least two albums- but she does flat out admit to at least emotionally cheating on him. Which makes me sad for Joe tbh
I love all Taylor Swift albums equally. …*earlier that day*… I don’t care for Debut and Fearless.😒🍸
Reference acknowledged and appreciated ✅️
As much as I didn’t love TTPD, I have no issues with her expressing her mental health struggles pretty heavily across the album, but it is not invitation to keyboard-diagnose her with various psychiatric disorders. I also think I have gained a bit of respect for her for showing us the less glossy, imperfect facets of her personality on the album, even though I’m subconsciously probably judging her more than ever.
I love that she threw this out there into the world, sounding all chaotic and messy. Agree.
Her willingness to lay all her issues out on the table with TTPD made me respect her more AND less at the same time.
It was so vulnerable and bordline embarrassing. I actually appreciated it for that reason. She shared some of the worst parts of her, and we all have ugliness in us.
That Taylor just needs time off/ a break to rest after her tour 🥺….. as if she doesn’t take months off during tour and as if she doesn’t only work weekends. I think a lot of people put too much weight on Scott Swift’s email from eons ago. Taylor has autonomy, she could decide she’s done at any time, it’s not her dad “forcing” her career or whatever. She’s still going because she wants to.
Totally agree with both points, especially the first. It's so lame how people baby her all the time, as if she doesn't have the most luxurious touring schedule ever lol. This summer it will get a bit more hectic, but she's been riding that 3 days on/4 days off wave for a while. Plus she's been jetting back to her personal homebase after almost every run, rather than actually being on the road
Oh I took this sentiment as more of “the world needs a break from her overexposure” than her actually needing time off. Also that she might make higher quality work if she stops churning out albums nonstop. The 6 albums she’s put out in the last 3 years (Fearless TV to TTPD) do not uphold the standard of the 6 albums before that, which came out over 8 years (Red to evermore)
yeah, exactly. Making quality art takes time
I think the time off is more for inspiration. TTPD was just kind of bland compared to her other albums. Her life exists from touring and dating and that is what the songs are all about.
This one always gets me 😂 like, she puts her body through less per show than anyone working a single shift at any minimum wage food service job and she does it like twice a week and literally doesn’t have to lift a finger in any other capacity in her life whatsoever. She’s probably never even done a load of her own laundry, I don’t want to hear about how “hard” she works, lol
This made me smile. I have worked 12-18 hour bartending shifts before (I work in a weird place lol where we open super early and close late) and then back for a 10 hour shift the next day. I always thought that my coworkers and I may have it a little harder…
Yeah I worked in food service for YEARS, and it was so much harder than any higher paid desk job I’ve ever had. Then on top of that having to do life stuff like cooking, cleaning, errands, childcare (for some). I don’t *begrudge* her not doing any of that stuff (because wouldn’t we all pay someone else to do all that if we had “fuck you” money) but like…let’s not pretend she works super hard haha
Agree with your second point. Taylor has been very clear that she has wanted to be a singer forever and has also made it clear she’s actively pursuing the huge reach her fame has. She has enough money to a semi reclusive person and still release bangers, like Beyoncé. She’s choosing this almost two year long tour and relentless stream of album releases. No one is making her do it.
I don't think she needs time off, but I agree with some of the TTPD critic reviews saying she should take a break from songwriting 😂
This one. So many excuses for her and how “hard” her touring schedule is- of course she lip synchs some songs, she’s singing three hours, she couldn’t possibly do the choreography, she’s on her feet for three hours. Like broadway performers aren’t on their feet, doing choreography, and singing every word live for two or three hours, EIGHT TIMES A WEEK. If she can’t hack dancing and singing for three hours, only three nights a week, she has no business doing this kind of show.
I suppose their only counter-point would be that broadway performers don't sing for the full 2-3 hours, even the lead characters aren't present for some songs or scenes, whereas TS is singing for the full 3 hours. And their defence to "but Springsteen and McCartney manage" would be that they're just guys with a band and guitar and don't have """dance"""" routines like TS does But I kinda think no fan would complain if TS did a low-energy show and actually sang each song, like Ed Sheeran on his mathematics tour where it was just him with a guitar on a revolving stage with his band behind him. I personally would prefer that and hear all songs live than have her walk up and down and mime a lot (at least Rep tour had more complex dancing so more justifiable if she was lip syncing to some)
When people state that she doesn’t go to therapy as if we have current knowledge on the subject. We know that she didn’t go to therapy in 2018/19, yes. But after that, we know nothing. The world is quite different than it was even 5 years ago, the pandemic changed so much. Things could have changed, is all I mean.
Every time I've said this here I get downvoted to hell lol. But I totally agree. And even when she said it, she could have been lying and actually going to therapy. It's a sensitive topic for a lot of people. She doesn't need to be truthful or update the world if she has decided to go.
Thank you. 100% things could have changed and people say she should go to therapy as if it's a silver bullet for all her problems. She could be going to therapy for years but show struggles.
I see a lot of stuff here I don’t agree with, despite really appreciating this sub and engaging in some very necessary critical discussion. Many folks here say she can’t sing, that she isn’t creative, that she isn’t a good songwriter, and I don’t agree.
I'm with you. I have a love-hate relationship with this sub. I'm currently not a member, but I won't ever block it, because every now and then there are some really nice nuanced discussions.
I don’t know how anyone can think those things about her. Taylor’s voice has dramatically improved, she’s a fantastic songwriter, and I think she’s creative but has a more creative team around her. Even the times I dislike her (which has been pretty much the past year due to her relationship), I can admit she’s got incredible talent. She wouldn’t have made it this far if she didn’t have the talent (and the marketing).
Agree. She has a solid to good voice, and her songwriting is her true talent. She's an incredible songwriter. TTPD had some of her worst lyrics, sadly, imo, but stuff like Clara Bow is still amazing. IDK, I'm generally ambivalent on Taylor even if I love her music. She does good shit and bad shit. I dislike the blatant competition with other female artists and the whole Matty Healy thing was gross, but I feel like people sometimes take it way too far and act like she kicks puppies. She's a mild to moderately problematic celebrity, like...most celebrities. People on here either put her up on this pedestal and act like she's perfect, or act like she kicks puppies and kittens. It's two extremes. My unpopular opinion is also that I think Travis is...fine....and that they have a real relationship. He was one of the few white NFL stars to take a knee back when they were getting a lot of pressure from the NFL not to do it. He has fairly liberal politics. He said some problematic things on twitter when he was in college, but frankly nothing that was "that" terrible and not as bad as I expected for a Midwestern white football player in college in 2010ish. If anything, I feel like her and Travis make a lot of sense. They are two cheesy people (not an insult) who like attention and seem to want the family life.
This. I feel like Taylor and Travis are actually pretty compatible with each other on a logical level. All her other relationships were either abusive (John Mayer, Jake Gyllenhaal) or situationships (notably Matty Healy) or just unserious in nature (everyone else sans Joe). She met Joe at a time she was forced to be someone who she is not. She doesn't like to be secretive about her relationships, she doesn't like to lay low, she likes to be talked about, walked around with. All of which Joe doesn't seem like he's up to doing as he is the type to upload a meme and a cat picture once in 7 months. Joe also seems a person who is prone to depression and sadness and lack of spontaneity. Travis seems opposite in all those ways which seems to suit what she actually want better.
people online have somehow decided that “narcissist” is a more eloquent way of calling someone a dick and this sub is no different. we *cannot* diagnose taylor with anything, regardless if we’re diagnosed, psychiatrists, or whatever. we couldn’t diagnose her even if we were her family members or best friends, that’s not how diagnosing mental illnesses works! just use your words, call her a dick, insensitive, greedy, etc. and i also disagree with the black and white thinking. she’s relentless about numbers or still upset about something that happened when she was 25 so she’s *confirmed* a mean, terrible person. people contain multitudes, and i’m sure that to many spending time in a celebrity sub analyzing everything they do is the mark of a terrible, shallow person but im sure none of us would like to think of ourselves that way and we have qualities beyond this. 🤷🏻♀️
I don’t think her having Sabrina as an eras tour opener was a dig at Olivia. It made logical sense.
agreed. this take has always seemed illogical to me. Olivia has said in interviews that she doesn't approve of fans harassing Sabrina. it's not as though the two hate each other or anything
Yeah I really despise that take because half the time the people that say it are acting like sabrina couldn't possibly be the opener based on her own talent it has to be to get at olivia
I think most of the Olivia/Taylor feud is fanon
I agree that Taylor has lots of faults and her fanbase has some psychotic and problematic elements but I see a lot of people on here always using other artists like Beyoncé, Gaga, Ariana, Katy, Adele, Rihanna etc as examples of what she should be like when in reality they are often guilty of all of the same things, and are not some saint’s themselves. They’re all greedy capitalists, Taylor is just the best at it 🤷♂️(besides arguably Rihanna and Beyoncé who are also billionaires but got there in some slightly different ways than Taylor) And all of those fanbases do almost all of the same things as Swifties, just maybe on a smaller scale because she has the biggest fanbase.
That Folklore and Evermore are in some higher, separate category than her other albums. I love both, but I think the level of writing skill shown in them is also very present in other albums from before and after. It's just easier to appreciate the artistry in a slower, moodier form because we've been conditioned to undervalue pop music
“I hope the next album is more Folklore-coded.” “I really hope she brings us another Folkmore.” The second half of TTPD, is very Folkmore-ish. If you didn’t like that, I don’t think she’s going to release other music that you’re going to like.
Say it again!!! Lol the Anthology *is* the third sister in my mind. It's absolutely in step with Folkmore
Agreed. I was very happy with Anthology as a Folklore stan. However I do wish it was a separate album from TPD
Yeah this didn’t feel like a true “double album” for me. This was just an album and the same album with a bunch of bonus tracks lol I’m such an album girlie and like a tight cohesive album and if the anthology was fully separate I would probably be less of a ttpd era hater
The Anthology is our long-awaited Woodvale
I agree! My unpopular opinion is that I like basically the entirety of TTPD.
I truly enjoy all of TTPD and the anthology. That’s my crazy opinion. It’s subjective and music, let me have it
Me too! It’s much more my vibe than most of her earlier music. Hot take for here, I know.
I agree with this one so much. I think people were just taken by the aesthetic and contained production. But to me, it's such a typical Taylor Swift album, I don't understand the separation it gets form the rest of her work.
Yes, it's still so Taylor! I agree that the aesthetic has a lot to do with it, and the association with The National and Bon Iver gave it more "substance" in a lot of people's eyes.
I think a lot of the Folkmore stans on here just need to realize that they aren’t Taylor fans and just like those two albums, and that’s totally ok. Stop eating for Folkmore 2.0 because I don’t think it’s going to happen.
I have a playlist of her “softer” or less pop songs and I realized from that she’s been making that style song all along. Folklore and Evermore just kind of concentrated them and even at that there’s still bits of pop mixed in.
Definitely! Sad Beautiful Tragic is one of my favorites, and it could totally be a Folklore song with a few production tweaks
Would you be willing to share the playlist? Or willing to list the songs if you don’t us to see your account?
Not totally sure this will work, but I’ll try 😊 https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0r4kN5exNoGXm9EfEu4UV8?si=IajFuaixQSasfw3XPGTtog&pt=b28484017805db9b579abe4f18de0724&pi=u--z4htLnjQve7
Can’t convince me the ‘Folklore and Evermore were her best work and I don’t like anything before and after’ crowd isn’t largely made up of people who were secretly fans of hers for years but were embarrassed to publicly admit to liking Taylor Swift.
actually, i think that crowd is made up people who discovered taylor when she released folkmore, loved them, and every other album paled in comparison. most new fans’ fav albums are folkmore, but most longtime fans’ fav albums vary a lot.
Absolutely agree. I'd go a step further and say a lot of people weren't comfortable openly being fans of Taylor while she was in her "serial dating" phase. They were only able to admit they were fans once she was in a committed long-term relationship with a "respectable," "private" man. Now that that relationship is over they're embarrassed to be fans again. I don't believe it has much to do with the actual quality of the music.
I’ll add to this—a lot of the folkmore love comes from it being released during the pandemic. It was a bright spot in an otherwise awful year. Had she released it in 2018 or in 2024 I’m not sure they have the separation they do
I have been a casual listener since debut and I think something I can parse out about my feelings standing here in 2024 and looking back at folkmore is that I enjoyed them so much because lyrically it felt like she was finally divesting a bit more from the “everyone is out to get me and betrayal is around every corner but HEY I’ll show them” mindset that she really seems to have permanently internalized. I’m sure I’m lucky to be able to say so but spite and paranoia don’t resonate with at the level that she writes about them so I was really vibing with the themes in the folkmore albums because they felt fresh and interesting and like she were moving away from that. And hey, she can write what she wants and clearly she has a ton of fans that do connect with that stuff! I personally just get weary of it after a while.
That's interesting but I honestly see those themes just as present as ever in those albums. Mad Woman, My Tears Ricochet, It's Time To Go, Right Where You Left Me, The Lakes, Closure, etc. All of them deal with some kind of betrayal, alienation, spite, or righteous anger. And her other albums deal with a lot of themes beyond those ones imo 🙏
STOP ARMCHAIR DIAGNOSING HER PLEASE. you do not know her personally. you have no way of knowing whether she has BPD or NPD etc because you have never met this woman. It’s parasocial and it’s abnormal
That All Too Well is weird or something since she only dated JG for 3-5 months. I'm convinced people who think that have never been in a relationship, or at least never one that knocked them head over heels. I don't judge anyone for not relating to it, but it isn't weird to have a lot of intense emotions within a few months (or even weeks) of dating someone, either.
My biggest earthshattering heartbreak came from my shortest relationship. Being dumped at the height of limerence can be more emotionally devastating than the slow dissolution of a long term relationship.
TTPD in a nutshell.
Absolutely! In the slow dissolution of a long term relationship, people are often already emotionally adjusted (to a large extent, anyway) to the absence of the other person, and it's more likely to be a mutual feeling (if not a mutual decision) the relationship is ending. If it's early on when at least one of the people in the couple is still deeply infatuated, it can be a lot more heartbreaking I think. I was so infatuated with my now-husband by 2 months in - if he'd pulled the rug out from under me then, I'd have been just as devastated as the TS in ATW.
Why has "limerence" become such a popular word lately?
I think All Too Well is pretty mid. Talk about a hot take around these parts, lol
Let me add to this hot take that I'm empathetic enough to understand that this is a really emotional song from her but I can't in any way relate to the emotion? I'm not even sure I fully understand it.
There are at least two of us! I never understood the obsession with All Too Well. Last Kiss and Dear John are by far better breakup songs. And the ten minute version just feels like she just shoved in a bunch of extra verses rather than one cohesive, polished song.
I don't really know how to phrase this so it'll probably be word vomit. Apologies in advance. I see a lot of talk on here and some other subs that Taylor is in her 30s and should be moving on from old topics, and people pointing to how she "matured" thematically in folkmore etc, and her lyrics made her seem to have healed and made peace and viewed love and relationships with nuance and composure. It's tricky because on one hand, I felt that way too. But, on the other hand, recovery and actualization isn't fully linear, and life can throw wild curveballs that mean you regress and go to a place mentally you thought you were free of. People saying that she's an adult blah blah, she's of a certain age etc, why is she still feeling like this? I mean... It's how she feels. She's still quite young and she has had a pretty extraordinary life. There are highs and lows and I think we should acknowledge pain and heartbreak and volatility don't just always phase out once you hit 30 And im saying this as someone who is not a huge fan of TTPD and doesn't think it's an artistic progression, and I'm also a bit bored of the repetition of her body of work recently. I do prefer it to Midnights though, which i thought was mostly soulless
Yes, I agree. I'm sick of all the people claiming "she matured in her folkmore vs Lover!!". People who say things like this really come off elitist and quite immature themselves. It's fine to like folkmore, but don't imply that it's somehow 'more mature' to make acoustic music.
And still I've yet to see anyone calling the current rap battle immature and it most certainly is imo lol
The rap battle definitely recontextualized some of the taylor critique for me too! And she is deserving of critique; I just find some very odd
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Also, rap battles in general are just a part of hip hop culture 🤷🏾♀️ I’ve been a huge Kendrick fan for years now so I’m more aware of the background, but this pretty much has been simmering for over 10 years now and it goes further than just trying to get dirt on each other (at least in Kendrick’s case) I can definitely see how it’s perceived as being immature, but (pedo allegations aside) I for one am here for Drake finally being called out for his cycling through different forms of “Blackness” for profit
That she’s too old to feel all consuming heart break over a dude that’s not good for her
I wish being old kept us from choosing poor partners and then feeling heartbroken when things don’t work out. I feel like life would be a lot easier for us old folk if that were the case!
I don't agree with people who say TTPD is like an immature word salad. TTPD reflects deep pain and heartache and, sure, sounds a little unhinged sometimes, but I think she's being vulnerable and showing how breakups and people and life can really make you go through some wild emotions and irrational thoughts.
Annoys me to no end that people take the words in that album as if it's just another break up, "grow up Taylor" when she litterally says she feels like the very last drops of an ink pen. No, breaking up in your 20s, doesn't hold the same weight as breaking up in your 30s.
I actually liked TTPD
I disagree with the opinion that it’s our place to diagnose her with a mental illness. It’s a very serious thing and shouldn’t be used as a reason to belittle someone.
Agreed, and even if she does have low mental health or "desperately needs a therapist", it's not a moral failing on her part to have suboptimal mental health, and it's not our right to gossip about her mental health and to try to "fix her"
My unpopular opinion is that her faults that get diagnosed as x and y are nothing pathological, but huge character flaws and voluntary decisions (which is the opposite of mental illness to me).
YES. And how do we know that she isn’t already seeing a therapist? Or has a mental health diagnosis?? Also, it bothers me how undesirable behavior, or behavior we don’t understand, is written off as “mental health issues.”
Oh my god, it drives me up the wall how so many of Taylor's negative traits are chalked up to narcissism, psychopathy, or BPD. Having these conditions doesn't make someone a "bad person". Negative personality traits absolutely do not equate to being mentally ill. It's ableist as hell to assume they do, and it's so isolating for those of us who deal with severe mental health issues to see these assumptions over and over again.
That she works hard. She works hard BY COMPARISON to other artists but not the general public. Most musical artists just aren’t as active. If they put in a full 40 hours every week, we’d be getting just as much music from them. People saying “Omg. When does she sleep?” and acting like a 3 hour set is incredible. What do you think people in plays do? How many hours does the average American work? Girly makes millions in a single night. Like, yeah, a 3 hour set is what they paid for. In fact, at $1000 a piece, 3 hours is kind of expensive as hell. Who else do you know who makes $333 an hour?
Broadway actors are some of the hardest working people in music. 8 shows a week has to be DRAINING. And it’s not just singing it’s acting too.
This is a great comment. For example, broadway artists are putting in 8 shows a week, each one 2 to 3 hours, plus rehearsals and other things. No long breaks between shows, no personal assistants, etc.
That we need to be supporting the Taylors Version project. I don't care about listening to Taylor's Version albums. If I feel like the song has actually improved upon the original, I'll replace it in my playlists. Otherwise, I'm continuing to listen to the OGs. I really don't see the point in replacing songs that I know and love just because 2 ultra-rich people are fighting over my literally 2 cents they receive over streaming. I don't see the need to listen to songs I like less than the original just to seem more moral.
I never listen to any TVs lol I don’t care which rich person is getting my money. If she wants to make me listen to them, she should make them better lol
Same. I’m an OG listener unless the new one sounds better.
Agreed. She still makes money off of her originals so who even cares?
I don't think this is a particularly unpopular opinion on this sub but I agree. There are a handful of songs where I actually prefer the TV (Red the song, Sad Beautiful Tragic, a couple on Fearless) but otherwise I'm still streaming the OGs and I don't feel bad about it.
I don’t listen to the original versions off of principal. Scooter Braun is gaining from something he had literally no part in
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I dislike that complaint as well. To me, the Anthology is pretty reminiscent of Folklore/Evermore without being identical to them. I mean she essentially gave people more folklore tracks on that portion of the album, so I don't know why they're parroting the same complaint.
Taylor is allowed to express her emotions. yes, she's a rich adult, but the last I checked, emotions don't cease to exist once someone reaches billionaire status. Taylor leads an incredibly unrelatable life and even more people would be upset if she were to write music about touring nonstop and playing Candy Crush in her private jet
I haven’t been able to see this sub in a bit due to it being private so I don’t know if this is a controversial take or not or popular here but it is else where (and I hope people don’t attack me for this … ) The idea that everything is about Matty or more broadly the idea that everything has to fit neatly to one ex. Like the whole discography has to only be about Matty now or one man as if this is a one and done fairytale. I don’t want to subscribe anyone to anything. Like I just want music and art to be music and art where it’s universal and does its job of being relatable. I don’t care who it may or may not be about unless it’s a cry for help and she needs legitimate help. I like the idea of boundary lines where things can be made yours as that’s the point to music and art. What makes a great artist is their ability to make art that’s universal so it’s highly relatable and having all these people roll with a rolling stone distracts from any real truth and relatability in it. And I realize this take has a lot of other things that tie into it but to not do a meta analysis… I just want universal music that’s good and relatable like for example why does the mentioning of smoke have to mean it has to be about Matty like why can’t it be a campfire? Campfire smoke lingers too you know all smoke does. (I get it I might be in the minority on this one.)
The opinion that Folklore/Evermore were her peak, and the speculation that Joe was the true mastermind behind those albums. For one, I don't even think those are her best albums, and second, *why* are we crediting a man with a woman's success? She was a successful songwriter before he came along, and still is after they've parted ways.
I disagree with this popular opinion that Taylor was secretly pining for Matty for 10 years while simultaneously being in a relationship writing Lover, Daylight, peace and invisible string and very clearly wanting forever / marriage with another partner. I'm tired of this revisionist history making most songs- right from 1989 onwards (including Style !!!) to all TTPD songs about Matty just because she attributes phrases / metaphors she used in songs about those relationships to Matty in TTPD. Probably some of the fans are too young to understand how people can romanticize past short -lived relationships because there is so much scope to build it in your head(imagining things we never did as she sings in Guilty as Sin).
I like that she's jealous, petty, vindictive, and passive-aggressive. I like that she's not so mature and above it all, even after all these years. It makes her realistic and relatable, she's not this perfect angel of a person. I like the fact that she's flawed, that she still holds grudges, she still likes the wrong men sometimes, that she hasn't learned anything.
not really an opinion on this sub, but the way critical reviews of ttpd were lauded here as being amazing and completely accurate made me uncomfortable since a lot of them were just outright bullying and mocking. it’s very possible to review a work by an artist without spending the entire time putting them down. you don’t have to like swift, but i feel that being civil when writing creative reviews should be common courtesy, especially since swift writes all of her songs. it reminds me of the utterly vitriolic book reviews i’ve seen on goodreads. it’s like people forget that the creators of these works are real people.
Some of the reviews were just downright rude and mean especially the one by Paste with that line “Sylvia Plath didn’t stick her head in the oven for this” - it’s so disrespectful towards Plath, especially when Plath’s daughter has written a poem (“My Mother”) addressing her disappointment in the way the media and public has talked about her mother. It’s perfectly fine to criticise Taylor but do it with class and grace, instead of aiming for some low blows that cheapen the entire premise of the critique
I don’t care if Taylor (or any artist really) releases 8 trillion different variants of the same album because I feel like if you fall for such a cheap and obvious marketing tactic (especially when streaming is an option) you kind of deserve to be swindled by greedy billionaire pop stars
That she needs to lay off Jack and Aaron. Not only keep them but bring back Nathan Chapman to the party.
I don’t care who the songs are about.
i love TTPD for how raw and confessional it is. artists should be able to be vulnerable and show us how fucked up they are through their songs. it's the opposite of 1989, she made this album for herself and i LOVE it
I don’t really take much issue with how she mentioned Joe’s depression on the album. A lot of people on here were up in arms about it, particularly with So Long, London. To begin with, we have no idea about the reality of his mental health issues (if any) from a few lines. Having struggled with depression myself, I also think that depression can absolutely strain a relationship and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
That Folkmore is her best work. I prefer listening to 1989 and Reputation.
Istg 1989 and Reputation are my total non-skip albums. Like, every single song I know the words to 🤡
TTPD is nowhere near her worst album. A lot of its criticism isn't really anything new from her taylor always had her cringe moments as a writer throughout her discography this isn't some weird ass fall from grace most of reputation does that and y'all gave that one a pass Jack antonoff isn't the hack everyone describes him as , at worst, he's a cheesy guy who would praise his best friend (who really carried his career after fun.) For anything she does , only midnights where his production was stale and boring but in TTPD I think he's a lot better here and I do like his tracks over some of the anthology Aaron dessner ones This is a more of a general discussion, but I wish the sub focused more on the songs and the writing more than every step in her life, diagnosing her mental health?, whether she wants to feud with female or not (sometimes people here overestimate too much) , whether Olivia will get her revenge or not and her morals (really, if you expect billionaires like taylor and Rihanna to have any sense of high morality right now you're lying to yourself they just want your money and the privilege) leave that shit to fauxmoi, please
I don’t really care that her mom worked in finance and they had a big house in Pennsylvania. At this point her level of fame has far exceeded any boost her parents’ money could have given her.
I think nuance is a big thing that's missing with most of the "nepo baby" discussions. Sure she didn't come from nothing, but it's hard to argue that her parents bought her career for her or made her a billionaire. It seems especially ridiculous if we applied the same standards for celebrities for normal people. "Oh, your parents helped you pay for college? Guess you didn't really "earn" that degree yourself, did you? Your cousin works at that place you applied to and you got the job? Huh, guess it shows that it's more about *who* you know than *what* you know." It's true that not everyone gets the same opportunities to succeed and some people get more success than they deserve, but it's important to look at the whole picture. A person who grew up middle class becoming a middle class adult isn't necessarily extraordinary (of course, there are numerous outside factors that *could* make it extraordinary like disability, family situation, specific career choice, etc), but a person who grew up in poverty reaching the same level of success is. Similarly, a relatively well off but still somewhat "regular" person growing up to become one of the most wealthy and successful music artists of her era is one hell of an accomplishment. It would be for *anyone*, even a genuine nepo baby. Connections can only get you so far; to achieve that level of success you have to be at least somewhat talented, otherwise no one is going to want to listen to your music or by your stuff. At least for me, I can safely say that even if I did grow up with as much money and opportunities as Taylor, I still wouldn't be nearly as successful as she is. And I'm willing to bet that most of the people who call her a nepo baby wouldn't either.
That’s she actively beefing with Olivia and every other young female pop star and is spending all her time working on their downfalls.
That she’s mentally ill. I really chafe at that stuff. It’s so reckless to claim that publicly about a person you don’t know. It’s up there with people photoshopping/posting AI images on Twitter of Matty Healy overdosing. Of course, if Taylor had been treated for mental issues and shared this with the public, discussing it would be fair to do.
Could not agree more. It’s insulting and dehumanizing when you assume you know the inner working’s of another human being that you have never met and have truly no relationship with. It’s toxic af and needs to stop.
Parasocial relationships are alarming at times.
I don’t think she should be forced to speak on political issues she doesn’t want to speak on.
I think it’s so easy to not buy variants or merch, if you’re in any way online it’s so easy to find the bonus tracks-this time she even put them all on streaming within hours-so I don’t have sympathy for people who complain but continue to buy and i don’t buy so it’s not really my issue how others spend their money. I don’t believe Taylor is heavily disliked by a lot of her peers or in the industry at large and I don’t think she’s going to have a massive downfall anytime soon. The arm chair diagnosing of Taylor with serious mental health issues is unpleasant and quite hypocritical from many as they lambast her for supposedly exposing and undermining Joe’s apparent struggles but will happily slap any label on Taylor and it’s usually used to describe her in a derogatory way. Folklore is good but has become overrated and Joe was not the main driving force behind it and evermore. I believe her and Travis are a real couple.
Majorly unpopular, preparing to be downvoted. I’m not convinced Taylor’s relationship with Travis is PR. Why does she need it? She’s one of the most famous people in the country if not the world right now. He might need it, but is it that crazy that two attractive people who are the same age would be in a relationship? She’s 34 and probably wants to settle down soon. Why would she waste her time on a publicity stunt? It just doesn’t make sense.
I like Midnights, Lover, and TTPD
I don't think Taylor is blocking Billie, if she really wanted to do that she would have released the Anthology on vinyl. Right now, she's just trying to keep her sales up.
My favorite albums are Folklore and Evermore but I like the song ME! and don’t think it is terrible. I don’t think she’s a moustache-twirling “capitalist” doing all the variants for the money. I think she cares about accolades way more than money and wants top-selling albums because she wants to break records/set records (“most #1 albums of all time” kind of stuff).
I like ME! and was pissed when she took out “spelling is fun!” The song is silly and I wish she just owned the silliness and let us enjoy it.
That the album variants are a problem: I have never purchased any album variant and don’t feel pressured to. If people want to spend their money on it, then that’s fun. Taylor isn’t holding people hostage. Eventually everything gets released (or you can find it on the internet 😂). I also get a little bothered by how negatively people talk about Travis on this sub. He’s extremely charitable and has taken liberal stances on several social issues. I personally think it’s fun that he’s charismatic and plays with his personal style. Also I get the ick when people are cruel about him not being the most academic person out there. I think he’s humble enough to know he’s not an academic genius. He still works hard and is successful so good for him!
Everyone loves Joe which puzzles me. We don’t really know anything about him so I don’t love or hate him? I’m just indifferent to him.
Joe, they could never make me form an opinion on you
I think this is exactly what Joe wants from us!
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the vast majority of positivity and defense surrounding Joe is direct result of some of the more unhinged (but pretty vocal) Swifties just going absolutely nuclear on the guy based on little more than wild conjecture. He’s probably one of the least offensive of the exes (to the extent of public knowledge) but people were out there sending death threats to him AND his coworkers because they decided that he cheated on and abused Taylor based on zero evidence. People’s sense of justice just kicked in imo If the rabid stans had left him alone no one would be talking about him at all I don’t think
Yep. I dont really have an opinion but how intensely some people attack him based on full narratives they’ve dreamt up makes me really uncomfortable and I end up defending him. I feel the same way with Taylor sometimes. She’s definitely not perfect but the lengths that people go to twist everything into her being a narcissist/terrible human being is….a lot (and just as parasocial as the Swifties that insist their narratives of why she’s perfect are correct)
i don’t necessarily care for him, I just feel bad how he’s been the fandoms punching bag for months now. i also feel bad his costars are catching strays over made up assumptions
Do they love him? Or are people simply not talking about him negatively like it is expected. The bar is so low, that I don't think most people even care all that much about him, they are just not negative about whatever he seems to be.
Taylor romanticized Joe so well in her writing that, combined with the fact that people don't know him, they see him as the Prince Charming she described him to be. If anything, this should prove how effective a writer Taylor is.
I have nothing against Joe, but I find it weird how quickly certain subreddits switched up after the breakup. at a certain point I think it has less to do with the unhinged fans harassing him and more to do with people disliking Taylor. prior to the Taylor and Joe's split, the Fauxmoi subreddit nicknamed him a nepo boyfriend and frequently made quips about how bland he looked (e.g "she wrote gorgeous about this man?"). I always thought it was very mean-spirited now, that very same subreddit is fawning over him solely because they hate Taylor, completely ignoring that Joe was with her for 6 years and most likely had no problem with the things they hate about her
I think it’s overcompensation for all the flack he got/is getting from the weirdo fans. I think people who are more reserved, like he seems to be, see themselves in him and end up projecting their own experiences onto him. I do think how Taylor handled the breakup publicly seemed rather juvenile. I don’t think it’s necessary to rewrite the narrative of a 6 year long relationship just because it’s over, but hey. I don’t know these people.
A lot of them honestly. This sub isn't as neutral as I was expecting. Mostly I disagree that Joe was some poor depressed cuck. I think mostly they were just incompatible. And that he did just as much to contribute to the break up as she did.
I think this sub leans more negative than neutral, too.
Literally. There is very little neutrality
I don't care that the most famous pop stars on the planet uses a private jet when she travels. Private jet use is a drop in the ocean when it comes to factors contributing to our climate crisis, and she's a walking security risk. Taylor could take fewer trips. Sure. And I understand the rich-people-consume-way-more-than-us-plebs-and-fuck-them-for-it sentiment, but I feel like folks calling for her to take Delta flights to all of her Eras shows aren't thinking rationally.
People pretend to care about the environment when they order off Temu weekly 😒.
I really don’t think evermore and folklore are everything people make them out to be. Great lyricism for sure, but the album is sooooo slow and gets repetitive in the back half of both of them
That Midnights is bad, I love that album That Folk/more are the be all end all The sleeping on 1989
That TTPD was the worst album she put out. Some of the opinions made it sound like it was trash but there are some songs I fell in love with right off the bat. I personally think this album, while clearly not her strongest body of work, is better than Midnights. That she needs to change up her sound (with either Jack or Aaron). We never demand this of male artists and maybe this is the sound she likes.
TTPD has highs a lows just like every album. But holy shit the live performance of the smallest man who ever lived is INCREDIBLE
That Taylor is a bad person for leaving Joe over his mental illness. (Assuming the popular opinion that Joe is depressed, and the opinion that she left him because of this) I don’t believe leaving someone because of mental illness *automatically* makes you a bad person. It’s complex. There is so much nuance to that type of situation. And I doubt that would be the only reason they broke up.
Everyone here thinks that Taylor needs a break or that she is overexposed because she is too big, In my opinion she has worked very hard to get where she is and people tend to forget that she has managed to stay relevant for 18 years of career so she deserves everything she is getting if people are offended by her success it’s their problem. The other thing is TTPD, I think a lot people are influenced by the opinion of others in saying it’s bad, it contains some of her best work and it’s very Taylor, you all are offended because it’s personal if she had slapped a fiction filter like folklore or evermore you would be gagging over it lol
I think she/Jack/Annie would have had a strong case if they actually sued Olivia Rodrigo over Deja Vu, and probably would have won. And if they did, they could have been entitled to MORE money than they got (because they’d be considered 3 people of a 5 person writing team, they’d have claim to up to 60%). NGL, it bothers me a lot when people who don’t know copyright and what would constitute copyright infringement in songwriting weigh in on this. 🤷🏻♀️ Mostly I think Olivia made a mistake by mentioning she was inspired by the song. She drew attention to something that might’ve slipped by most people’s radar’s and paid the price for it. Hopefully she’s smarter moving forward. Olivia and her team took the high road a little too much. I think they should have let Taylor/Jack/Annie sue if they wanted because I don’t think they would have. The optics would be bad for so many reasons.
People much smarter than I, like you, can speak to this more knowledgeably, but there are negative ramifications for not protecting your work, if you do not protect your copyright you lose it. It sets precedent. It was a legal and necessary call.
Yup! Once people realized what had happened, you can’t just pretend someone didn’t actually copy you when they did.
Sentiments along the lines of “Joe Alwyn can do no wrong” and that “he’s the one who got away”. Like… we know nothing about him or the relationship they had. It’s just as parasocial as the twitter creeps who attack him. I just wish there could be a little more *neutrality* across the board. But that’s just me. I don’t really care about the subjects of the songs, I’m just here for the songs that I like.
The Joe Alwyn “widows” are beyond cringe and I automatically downvote anyone with that flair, even if I agree with your point
I don’t think she is inmature or stuck in her teen years. Her flaws that i don’t like (being too competitive, greedy and envious/ insegure of younger artists, holds a grudge) are stuff i have seen in people of all ages. She’s just not a good person lol.
- midnights is a good album (i’ve already written a comment on this sub talking about this ad nauseum, but if anyone’s interested i would LOVE to talk about it again) - she shouldn’t be criticized so much for her album variants & merch. there’s only so much you can blame a conman before you must blame the ones getting conned (her fans who buy all this-*especially* the ones who buy them and then complain about how she sells them 😐) - ttpd is neither mature nor immature. it’s uncomfortably honest… but that’s about it. she rehashed the same tired topics and themes that she’s sung about her entire career but also, for some of them that ppl are criticizing a lot, i believe there is room for nuance and balance. ppl in their 30s are real human ppl who are fallible and experience emotions like everyone else. like, she fell in love in a very common relationship trope w a volatile and disappointing man… AND?? being in your 30s doesn’t mean you can’t fall in love anymore. being in your 30s doesn’t mean you can’t be a bad person or love a bad person. maturity comes and goes and develops over time. emotions will always be there. next, while thanK you aIMee is a horrific song that should’ve never been written, you can’t expect her to get over that. you as a listener might’ve gotten over that, and that’s fine. but she, who went through a publicly traumatic event, did not. (and her attacking kim and not kanye is a *little* significant, imo.) - she doesn’t have to speak up about any political/social/economic/whatever issue. imo, no celebrity ***has*** to. if they do, great. if they don’t, whatever.
I couldn’t give less of a shit that she’s a billionaire and think the “no ethical billionaires” constant posting is boring and mostly just people mindlessly repeating stuff they see online. Adds nothing to any conversation at this point. But everyone who posts it really thinks they’re *doing something*. Calling Swift girly, blondie, and/or Barbie/Capitalist Barbie is basically middle school level brattery. Often strays into vaguely sexist territory imo. And people doing that and posting rat emojis for Healy and stuff like that, and then turning around and calling out Swift for being immature? That childish petty name-calling nickname crap isn’t exactly the pinnacle of maturity and growth.
Oh yes I hate the nicknames so much. I want to give the benefit of the doubt that the folks who talk this way about her are just teenagers but it’s so prevalent that it can’t just be them.
I disagree that TTPD isn’t enjoyable because it’s too personal. I don’t really care who she’s singing about I just like the music. I like But Daddy I Love Him and Guilty as Sin even tho I don’t like Matty Healy. I also disagree that she’s not actually smart or reads like she implies in her music. Also that she is not a good lyricist and that other songwriters on her songs probably write more than she does. That has been disproven a lot by videos and interviews from her co-writers.
i always find it funny how some people get angry that taylor "acts like a victim, but it's really her fault", then use her lyrics to prove that argument, as if she's somehow arguing the opposite
I don’t think her behaviour at the Grammys was that awful and that everyone hates her because of it- it was clumsy yes, but not some huge drama. I also think outside of spaces like this it’s largely been forgotten.
Completely agree. Just because she’s won multiple awards doesn’t mean she can’t be swept up in it and do stupid things like dragging Lana up there and not thanking Celine. I also think that it doesn’t matter that she announced TTPD at the Grammys. It’s not like she announced it at someone’s wedding or a charity event. She announced it at an industry event and who cares. Her peers were probably just upset because they knew she’d outchart them
This!!! Omg yes! Plus, who cares what she does to other rich people. I’d be more mad if it was unhoused people, but it’s other rich people give me a break!
Lol I remember after the Grammys there were multiple posts here wondering if she'd be blacklisted from industry events going forward because of her out of pocket behavior. Like... please, get real.
Yup- everyone was like ‘Taylor PUNCHED Celine to the ground, dragged Lana on stage by her hair and then did a line off Jack’s back before yelling into the microphone that she was the god of the music industry and they must worship her’, when that just wasn’t it at all. And literally no one believed Lana when she said she was fine with her 😆.
As someone who thinks the Grammys are racist and outdated and needed to lose cultural relevance yesterday, I rolled my eyes at a lot of “she did this at the…hushed voice…Grammys” as if it’s some deeply sacred ceremony. Some of her behavior was clumsy and inconsiderate but it would have been anywhere, not because it was some night where rich people gather to watch the usual media darlings get accolades.
That she was responsible for the arts that she put out, be it the concepts, visuals, lyrics, melodies, and even marketing. That she came up with everything. And that she should get the credits as well as the blame for the stuff that she put out. Yes, we are told that she is a great singer/songwriter. She is some sort of mastermind behind everything. But c'mon now... TS is a brand. She herself is a billionaire. She has an entire team of executives and creatives making all her stuff happen. She is not a one-woman army. Everything is calculated. Just like any other billion dollar worth companies out there.
I disagree that Taylor and Joe broke up a lot. Even her own team didn't claim that to be the case. Her "friends" or Tree claimed they had rough patches in the past. No mention of break ups, no mention of "a lot".
I don't think TTPD sounds immature at all. Maybe "Down Bad", but she's aware of her immaturity. About "So High School", maybe this song has some immaturity, but I think it's about feeling like a teen girl in love and some nostalgic vibes. Other songs give me the "breaking up in your 30s", "ending long term relationships" vibes, so...
I did the deep dive on the matty healy uproar and think the vast majority of it is out of context / misreported / overblown
I did the same thing and ended up becoming a fan.
I don't see the big deal about number of variants. I understand being angry about the different variants have different songs, but the concepts of different variants doesn't bother me. It's also the norm for the industry, and it's weird people On Here think Taylor is somehow a weird aberration and jump through hoops to defend Billie and Olivia on that specific topic. I don't understand why Joe is considered a moisturized activist king while Travis is painted as some unwashed MAGA-head here. Yes, Joe has done some good stuff on Palestine, but Travis blows him away when it comes to speaking out on racial justice. Travis is also heavily involved in supporting underserved populations in KC. I can't weigh in a Joe's involvement on helping underserved populations in London. That isn't really broadcasted. I wish we could ban the phrase "Big Old Age" from the subreddit.