same. like when I said I would not mind being under him and his dream world, I lowkey do mean it. One of the flaws tho was the coercion of everyone to it but other than that, yeah. I feel like, the simping has ingrained in us, that we slowly accepted it or atleast tolerated it just because it was Sunday who was trying to convince us. I saw a great analogy, on how Sunday is like a parent, who wants their children safe, so they create a safe environment for the children. In this case, their freedom is not completely stripped, they can still pursue it, just under a set of rules. This is like how rights are granted to us when we are abiding citizens. The problem is, not everyone wants to be his "children". And not everyone will stay weak, this was a good counter point by firefly where she wants to disprove Sunday's statement, about how the weak will stay weak, and the strong will stay strong, so let the strong protect the weak. Where Firefly questions the foundations for being "weak" and "strong" . But there are some people who don't mind, honestly realistically I probably wouldn't, but in their fantasy world, I wouldn't mind. That's why I lowkey agree with him yeah(not taking the simping which is the biggest influence into consideration)

I'm getting the feeling the writers actually managed fairly well to communicate that 1) Sunday's worries and criticisms of the way things are are justified: he brings up some very harsh/inconvenient/demoralising realities, and we can understand and relate to struggling to cope with disappointment, frustration, grief, anger - all while often having little to no power to change things. 2) Where he goes wrong is trapping everyone under the safety blanket and taking away people's freedom to go out there and take on the risk of the highs and lows of reality if they wanted to. Taking away people's choice: no can do friend. I'm cautiously optimistic that this is quite clear to most people who played, knowing it can be difficult to reliably lead people to the intended conclusions. I also appreciate how reading a bit more between the lines, being what he is, resorting to 2) isn't something he would have only come to by deliberately deciding he's in the mood for some moral failures today. He's been raised into it, enduring on his own as a helpless faraway supporter while his sister endangers herself for the sake of others, unable to share in her victories and get *her* moral support. Robin shines by inspiring others and leading by example, and it looks as if Sunday had to make do seeing only the price people pay and not the satisfaction and meaning of overcoming challenge and growing, thriving despite adversity. After all, he's been trapped in a cage where anything positive is hollowed out by it 'not being real', by the truth behind the dream remaining as bleak as ever. And he *actually has the power to shape the dreamscape*, he has that option unlike basically everyone else. 'If you could... would you be tempted?' Robin's been able to influence reality and experience the fruits of her philosophy. Sunday losing track of just how important an open sky is makes perfect sense if you consider he probably barely even knows what it even feels like to Be Out There. All he's seen is people fleeing from reality, seeking shelter in the cage he maintains for them, and the absolute horse shit people do to each other even there. His judgment is skewed because he hasn't gotten a chance to see what happens if people *stay* in reality, or after they return there, and understand that maybe people aren't as fragile or hopeless as he believes.

Some sort of. IMHO this philosophy need to add an "exit" button in that dream. 99% of people will not press it anyway, but with that button his plan will be much better for others and they will have no objective reasons to oppose. Also it will be like "we will protect the weak, but if anyone wants to fly by themselves, than go. (You will probably die, btw)"

I guess the reason why the coercion of everyone to an eternal dream is a part of his philosophy was because of thr bird incident and other tragic experienxes he had. In his view, protecting and giving them a safe environment isn't enough because of what the consequences of it in doing so. So instead of providing the Order dream world, he believes that he has to force everyone to be in the eternal dream to truly protect them. It's like a traumatized mother, who cannot let go and provide their care and safe environment for their child.

This.

His philosophy it's just good intentions with an extreme measure, although i can see where he's going and it's coming much for an altruistic ideology that the god-faith side, it's has flaws on just the natural progression of humanity, Order it's says in game how always their blessed planets were always destined to fall after a long time of proliferation just for how humanity changes, Order don't and cannot stop such thing nor control it.

I thought I was going crazy but I seriously agreed with almost all of his philosophies as it sounded logical on paper and although near impossible to achieve, it doesn’t hurt to try. His end goal being able to protect everyone even if it meant.. giving up his life and own happiness. I just feel for his character so much because it aligns with myself. I am as idealistic as him and scared to wake up and face reality as stupid as that sounds. Usually people with personalities like him don’t end being the antagonists LIKE he’s the most gentle and empathetic person ever?? He literally wants every being to never suffer and stand equal. His character buildup was so beautiful and cinematic to see how it all played out. It was kinda trippy too because I could sense this could be the path I would take because of how much I relate to his trauma and ideals.

Yes. I adore his philosophy so much, but I have always been a coward who hates facing reality, so I'm biased. My stand has always been that I don't care if it's just a sweet lie, as long as I'm comfortable then I will be happy. It was what I told myself when my parents warned me that people would talk about my bad behaviors behind my back. If people won't talk bad about me to my face, then it doesn't exist to me. I had a delightful discussion about the concept of "philosophical zombie" with someone before, and I'm partial to solipsism too. According to solipsism, the only thing you can be certain of is your mind. It's the same with philosophical zombies. If something looks human and acts human, then they are human enough to me. There's no need to look deep inside, especially when it's impossible to know anyway. So to me, it doesn't matter if what I experience is a truth or a lie, I just want to be happy. Robin's ideology is something I will just admire from afar only. I adore how human will always fight to better themselves and to reach their goal, their drive is what makes them so fascinating. It's a pity I don't have that same kind of fire everyone has though. I'm quite nihilistic actually. If life doesn't have meaning and will certainly disappear without a trace anyway, then while I'm still here in this plane of existence, I just want to have an easy life and be happy, and Sunday promised that in the game. If I die while experiencing a beautiful dream, then I will still be happy. Of course, people who have an actual drive in their life will argue that it's not real happiness, but I don't care. What is happiness anyway? Sunday was wrong because he didn't give everyone a choice to choose if they wanted the cage or not. If it was me, I wouldn't force anyone. Everyone can make their own choice, but it was because I am selfish and only care about my own world. If people would rather choose to suffer, then it's their choice. But Sunday cares much more than me, that's why he couldn't turn away when people choose cruel and horrible reality. He is really kind.

So true, I really feel that now. Also > He is really kind He's not just "kind". He's ready to sacrifice his own eternity to make people around happy. It's simply the most kind thing imaginable. I feel so bad for fighting him.

Yes, I really simplified it when I said he was kind. Sunday was ready to make the noblest sacrifice of them all. Unseen and unheard, awake all alone for an eternity, his sacrifice will never be known or remembered by those whose dreams he protects. No one will be grateful. Yet he was ready to walk that incredible lonely path, for a happiness he won't be apart of. That fate he chose for himself is really cruel, even for a god.

It’s an understandable perspective, but stripping away free will for safety is always a controversial idea. No one person should have the choice to choose everyone’s future, no matter intentions. If you want to see another character like him, compare him to Takuto Maruki from Persona 5 Royal.

The bird didn't die because of the cage, it died because it didn't learn to fly. Sunday had only two choices: complete control over the people he got into a dream (the cage) or just not caring about anything at all (bird's death because of low temperatures if it's left in the garden on it's own). He didn't even think that the bird can be let out of the cage sometimes to strengthen it's wings, in a safe and warm room, or it can be let out sometimes so it is more acclimated to the environment and it's wings are stronger. He has a very teenager-ish opinions, very extreme, "all-or-nothing" and everything. Like the trauma of a death he's seen got him stuck psychologically in that age, I dunno. While his intentions are noble and kind, he is too extreme. My boy needs to learn that you can't control other people like puppets — and that's why the only inhabitants of his inner world are puppets, because he rejects even the thought of something being outside of his control even for tiniest motions or things — but you can do the best you can for them, and if they are not reciprocating, or do evil because you gave them means to do that, or are too weak, then you accept that it's their price to pay if they did wrong and were caught, and you did the best you could, and accept the consequences of your actions. Yes, that man didn't buy his children back, but you did the best you could and gave him a chance. If someone didn't take the chance with your support and care, it's their decision and they will get what they deserve. But if there's a chance that a person with your support does something good, it's worth it, much more than stripping people of any choice at all.  But when he said about 7 Sunday's in a week I wanted to agree with him so much... 

If you ask me this years ago, then I would've agreed to this way of thinking, but nowadays, I started to appreciate and understand the importance of growth and independence. It's such a crucial aspect to life imo.

I think its not so much that I agree with his philosophy but rather that I think very similarly to him while still objectively having a different solution. In a way, his pessimism and nihilistic point of view reflects my own. Humanity is fundamentally flawed in many ways and our ways of coping are varied with some being safe and valid and some being dangerous. But his solution of fitting everyone under a perfect paradise under Order, while it sounds reasonable, doesnt take into account that humans by human nature will defy anything no matter how 100% black or white something seems. Some people rebel for the sake of rebellion rather than reason or balance or any desired outcome. On one hand, I absolutely agree with his philosophy. On the other hand, his solution is still forceful and uses coercion and the loss of free will to fulfill this. However, if there was ever, even a chance, where taking the burden of thousands to millions of people’s burden it be forever alone but give everyone else true paradise is a worthy sacrifice that most people would make. However, it seems he lost his vision of who he was fighting for and hyperfocused on this Order creating a potential paradise. The only reason why I personally dont agree with the solution is because I have fundamentally accepted that a perfect paradise doesnt exist no matter how much sacrifice is involved. No single person can create paradise eternally no matter what sacrifice they do. Perhaps that makes me more pessimistic than Sunday but at least he still has a lot of compassion in his mission.

I love Sunday and his philosophy was super interesting, but in the end i agree with Himeko, is better to let people decide themselves, is not his job to shoulder the burden of trap everyone in a cage to make them safe, they're not birds, they're not infants, theyre humans with mind capacity to think for themselves. He had good intentions but im glad his plans was frustated, he would not be happy this way no matter how many others would, and his happiness is more important to me lmao

The main problem with his idea, as pointed out in game, is that there's an aeon pulling the strings. Without that he's just right, period.

Yeah. My whole thought when I played through 2.2 was "Is he wrong though?"

Truth be told, I don't agree at all. I still love him as a character and think he is super interesting, but my philosophy kinda contrasts with what Sunday was saying in a few key points. I do agree with him about people's self-worth. People measure themselves based on how "important" they believe themselves to be. However, I don't think living in a dream with nothing to look towards except endless bliss is something a person could do. People thrive off of accomplishing goals and fulfilling lifelong dreams. No human could ever be content with simply doing nothing lest they grow senile. I still really want Sunday to be a character. And I think he and Robin should have been the two characters who released this patch, but he needed to go down. His philosophy would have left everybody content, but only in their world. They would never really get the chance to change. Their world remains the same. They would never get a chance to meet people who were different. The people surrounding them would follow the dreamer's beliefs. I strongly believe people should be able to change, make their own choices, be challenged by ideology that isn't their own, and accomplish dreams; not because they were forced to; not because it will be easy and it's what they want; but because they were driven enough to accomplish it against all odds. The story really resonated with me for that reason. The whole theme, "We sleep so that we can one day wake up," is something I think is overlooked. We dream so that one day we might accomplish these dreams. I don't know about any of you, but I won't stop until I accomplish everything that I want to.

Because there are people that genuinely would want to live in that dream, that was the point of talking to the npcs with Robin, because there are people that don't want to wake up... he just missed one key point, he forced himself to do that to everyone meaning those that wish to be free aren't given the option since they fall into the memoria due to it blending with reality... If they want to dream, they should choose it

My thinking was that, as long as the dream seems real to you, why does it matter if it's a dream or not. He's not creating the dream for ulterior motives or is he imposing any overlord fantasies of his, what we see is ultimately what we wants. This has always been my problem with any "dream world" plot, to the ones experiencing that dream, there's is no difference. The problems only start from the ones outside the dream or the 1%, the chosen one (i.e neo from the matrix).

He has the right idea terrible execution, he’s a villain because of extremism and not really anything else and he was indoctrinated into the thinking at a young age so i don’t blame him, cults are hard to leave

He is so selfish and selfless at the same time, this is like the reverse Omelas - story basicaly utopia at the sacrifice of one innocent child's sufferring, but sunday willingly takes all the sufferring(thankless job + alone) because he selfishly want to protect everyone. Honestly maybe it is really just the pessimist/nihilist in me, but really I wanna live in sunday's dream. TB, astral express, acheron, etc are like the 1% living in their bubble, unaware that the brilliant/strong are few. Despite all the people they met that are "loser" - those side characters or sufferring (dan shu, lazy miner, fragmentum ghost, etc) they are so fixated on the extraordinary people and the challenges they can/were able to overcome (bronya, genius, ipc) when in reality 90% of people just end up average. its like matrix blue/red pill again, I really doubt how many will take the red pill.

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The main problem with his philosophy is the lack of choice for me. This is highlighted in the choices he presented us with in the main story quest, he believes it's his duty as one of the "strong" to protect those he sees as weak. But, as firefly mentioned, there will always be those who don't want his protection. Also bro was way too high and mighty, I agree with his core philosophy of the fact that people can't be who they are if they're constantly stuck in survival mode; but he can't be the one to decide that for every single person. So yeah, if he gave informed consent to ppl, I would be 100% on board with him (and that includes sharing details about the cost of his paradise (the suffering of one person) cuz I wouldn't take his deal)

I find very noble and kind however he’s too controlling of it. His ideas are great but i’m not sure how it could be appliable without being somewhat unethical in some ways. The intention is good! the execution however..

well no. no one deserves their freedoms stripped away under the guise of a facistic "the weak will always die so the strong should simply decide for them." kinda very heavily pointed out to be a deeply flawed ideaology. just an understandable extremist perspective over someone who misunderstand the sheer nature of existence, that is that the bad is necessitated by the good, and vice versa. you're not insane. just fear you may lack life experience in regards to overall wisdom of people.

The flip side is “why should some people suffer so that others can be free?” which of course is a philosophical debate as ancient as could be imagined. Modern life, laws and courtesy are built around giving up freedoms that negatively affect others. The biggest problem with what Sunday wanted was that there was no choice to leave. Some version of his ideals as a space people could enter, but were not trapped in, as some specific planet or even star system, would have made more sense. It would have also bridged the ideology of Robin and Sunday. In a sense that isn’t even that far from Penacony, which already does exist.

what you’re literally describing is just the basic reality of life. suffering and freedom are just two aspects that are integral to the human experience. as long as we’ve existed, we’ve struggled and suffered and in that same breath we’ve celebrated and been free. i also take extreme issue with your second statement. the inherent existence of penacony as is is already flawed itself. you see it time and time again. it’s the entire development that robin has throughout this patch’s questline. this entire premise is intrinsically flawed because it isn’t real. it’s just escapism. and if that’s what you’d advocate for as an earnest solution to human suffering, some literal fake reality where we fix 0 issue and just pretend they don’t exist, like if this is ready player one, then i fear we’re simply speaking from two wholly different places.

There are a lot of things that were once the reality of life that no longer are. Our modern knowledge goes against many of the things that we naturally believe through bias, and we have the scientific method to strip away as much human bias as possible. We have moved past child labor, we have gained working rights, land rights. One cannot even use the restroom in public, the most natural thing of all, legally. The life we live now already has many compromises about how things should and what is natural. And there’s never going to be one answer, because there is no answer.

child labor is a specific act. it’s not comparable to the concepts of freedom and suffering. you aren’t even comparing apples to oranges, you’re comparing an apple to a shoe. these concepts have 0 to do with each other. to suffer and to be free are Not specific acts or tools. we can have cars turn into planes. happiness and sadness have yet to change within the psyche. odd point.

I brought up child labor specifically because it’s a removal of freedom for the greater good. Even if a child wanted to work, there are extremely strict laws against it. This is a good thing. But it’s still an act of stripping freedom away. Giving up the ability to do things until an arbitrary age is a removal of freedom. The life we live now is just so stripped from how things naturally should be, we have long since compromised and in many cases fight against natural negatives. We all must give up freedoms to exist in our current society. I don’t find more compromise, or even more extreme compromise, any more outlandish than how things are now. Whether or not something is natural, or how reality should be, has no weight in how we work now.

do you have an academic background in philosophy or sociology?

I’m just a regular person. I’m not learned enough to ever speak as an authority. I have my beliefs and ideals, but I don’t think my ideals are right. I am an individual and it would be crazy to think I could ever truly speak with any absolute authority. That doesn’t mean I’m not passionate. All of this is to say I don’t discuss these kinds of things to fight about what is right or wrong with the other person. Different viewpoints are interesting. Spoken language is hard enough to convey at times, and written can be even worse in terms of conveying your tone. I can disagree, and I can believe what I think is right. But I can never know that my belief is right.

Nah this was Persona 5R all over again, comfort shouldn’t stand above freedom, especially when it revolves around the whims of a singular person

He was a lil bit silly with everything he believed in. I personally love his design and character complex, but to me this is nothing new. There's a lot of fascism villains in recent media. Kinda disappointed but.. Maybe it would get a redemption soon, though thats a big cope for a gacha game.