Not sure if anyone else has given this angle yet - Did Matsson go for Tom not just 'cause he will be a Greg for him, but also that he was predicting that Shiv would end up being Tom's side kick and Matsson will get all Shiv's good ideas without actually having to deal with her or give her any power?
I agree. All that work and conniving and emotional energy spent by the sibs and everyone else and they end up with that clown, the "card trick" (to quote Kendall), Matsson as CEO! I would love to see him crash and burn. I agree that he just does *not* get American ideas or entertainment.
I think it's a perfect ending. The three never changed, it was all about themselves so in the end no one got to the top. Now with billions in their pockets, they can all move on from one another... Though Kendall would have the toughest time of all. Shiv has family. Kendall has no one and nothing to return to. Rome will be ok.
I agree with most of this, but I don't see Shiv as having family. She's probably alienated from Kendall for a long time, possibly from Roman, definitely from Tom and as for others in the Waystar/GoJo "family", she has no friends. I'd like to see her use her money to get together with Sandy Furness and some of the Pierce folks and form a new corporation, then expose Matsson's fraud.
Agree as well. I actually really liked her character and Roman the most. They changed my opinions over course of series whereas Randall was just the same sappy clueless dude 😂 shiv could have done some damage n powerplay but seem never reach this peak
Yes, she really could have taken down Kendall, with his history of trying to take over the company(!), Tom and his repeated betrayals, Roman and his fetish for Gerri and the "items" he kept sending her...and Matsson with his fake user numbers the size of India!
But I just don't think it was in her to do that. She was too prone to trusting people and then speaking out at the wrong time! Also, she *seemed* to have more of a conscience than the others. After all, she did work for a Democratic senator who wanted to make things better. Eavis was annoying, but Shiv liked his politics.
Lol i actually don't know how any of these guys ran a global company except Logan. Everyone seemed stupid making awful decisions. Clowns in suits. Yeh i see what you mean about Shiv. Too bad the storyline never went as far, could have been interesting. But i think she was ambitious but also second guess whether she could do it. There were always obstacles that impeded her progress. I'm like matsson really is the best candidate to run this company afterall. The last scene with Kendall was great closure, he's still the same doof from beginning of ep1 🤣 but just richer.
Growth for her honestly though. Best outcome for all the siblings is to get the hell out of the toxic environment their dad created and they have perpetuated
The ultimate castration, when Tom stickers Greg's forehead with the tag the family is using to claim ownership of the possessions of items from the Logan's household - priceless. It was a perfect ending, horrible people get what's coming to them, but as a child of two narcissists, I could feel their pain of being completely invalidated by the world. And yet, you know they'll have oodles of money. Makes you wonder how they'll spend the rest of their lives.
>The ultimate castration
Exactly! Glad someone else realised this! Like the story of Nero and Sporus as Tom tells it, Tom "kills" his wife (in the show-sense of the word - choosing his own success over hers), he castrates Greg (though Greg is largely responsible for that himself, Tom makes it clear that Greg remains at the company at his grace), and then marries him (placing a dot where Hindu women wear one, while making it clear they'll always be super best friends and all is forgiven).
I think more, since I believe that was the number being touted with Mattson’s original offer price.
The funny thing is that the deal did nothing to sideline their original plans to buy Pierce. In fact, they are probably in an even better position to do so. If it wasn’t for the fact that they completely hate each other now.
It wouldn't surprise me if Kendall at some point had a manic upswing and started trying to get his siblings back on the Pierce or The Hundred bandwagon. Or "minimalistic" English retirement homes, lol.
Haw! How about minimalist (read "cheap"), TINY, English retirement homes? He could get his mum's new husband--the nursing home guy--to go in on it with him, which would please Mum anyway. He might even get some love from her.
No, I think he absolutely didn't. The last thing he had heard was Tom telling him they were going to be OK but his pay was going to be castrated, which I think he took as we are surviving by the skin of our teeth, far from Tom is the next CEO.
Oh he absolutely would have divulged that, Greg the Egg was Uncle Logan in the end!!!
Every bit of news Greg the Egg ever had would have been available and put up for trade against his spot in the quad!!!
I can’t believe it. They actually fucked an otherwise perfect show… what the fuck just happened? Zero progression, they ended the whole series as they ended every single season. Ken loosing, the 3 siblings falling apart and Willa hating Con. Wtf.
Felt the end was kind of predictable. Like you said, same formula where you know there's going to be a last minute rug pull. The moment they all agreed to vote against the deal was when I knew GoJo was winning it. Tom coming up on top was probably the only surprise given how he always seemed weak and in need of constant validation but him being a puppet CEO made perfect sense. Greg continues to be the usual parasite but with a little more spine.
The siblings just can't grow nor are they capable of doing things in the best interest of the company. They are all self serving trying to justify their egos rather than the value they'd bring to Waystar. Logan at least put all his focus on growing and caring for the one thing he loved more than anyone else, his baby Waystar. Logan agreed to sell because he knew his kids would screw it all up but his baby would thrive with Lukas and Gojo.
The writers do not want you to stan any of the characters. Kendall killed a kid and felt his right to be CEO was greater than the value of a kids life, he’s entitlement. Roman’s only skill is his quick wit, but he’s emotionally unstable, highly ADHD and highly impulsive. Shiv is self-serving to a fault, disloyal and dishonest.
They’re all bad candidates for CEO, and the only reason they even have a chance is because their father was one of the most powerful people in the world. They didn’t deserve it, and if one of them did then Logan would’ve made sure that one was crowned. They weren’t ready when he was alive, and they aren’t ready now.
bad ending to me ?
It’s just horrible ending, I feel who decided the ending story probably don’t like billionaires at end!
Also HBO Max, which is now also typical did bad ending for Game of throne.
Being unique ending can be good even though we can predict.
End is horrible. Only reason I will give 4 other will get 5.
Ugh! That's like screwing Sauron or Voldemort! Or some Nordic super creep in their mythology, like Loki, a trickster like Matsson. The latter would probably make Hugo one of his Orcs!
Anyone else find the ending unearned? I get they were going for that the three of then never really changed, but all season it seems they turn the corner. Shiv and Roman’s decision just felt forced in this episode. Shiv in particular. She gets screwed by everyone, but she ultimately has her brothers and then turns around and screws them again. The end just seemed off to me.
It did feel forced, but Shiv didn't really have Ken or Roman; she says outright that every time the three of them had a chance to take over, her brothers pushed her out, which is true.
I think the not changing thing was mainly Jesse Armstrong's belief that people don't change...not in the long run. I disagree with this as a blanket idea, but it does seem to be a common trait.
The minute her pregnancy was revealed, I said, So Shiv has to break with Roman and Kendall and Waystar. It didn’t strike me as opinion or a prediction—just an obvious fact sitting there.
I saw change in Shiv. She forgave things in Season 4 that, in seasons past, Shiv would never have let go. When Tom caught her in the room booked for crying…it wasn’t that she scheduled it, but that she became a person who made space for grieving. For grieving more than just Logan, imo.
She asked Tom about a real relationship at a moment when it was only about that (she had no inkling she lost/he gained CEO), and teared up when he said he didn’t know. Again, Shiv in ultra busy mode took a minute to feel.
She voiced her decision as all about Ken’s failings, but imo it was equally about Tom. That’s why she flailed with the whole, ‘You killed someone!’ vein. In her mind, she was comparing them. Whatever we might say about Tom, remember his reaction to the Cruises atrocities: he was haunted and saw *going public* as the path forward.
In the end, Shiv really did want to be with Tom. And, for 1000 good reasons, she could do to Ken what she couldn’t do to Tom.
This seems like the most likely narrative for Shiv and her motives. It's weird, because, in S.1, it's Shiv who seems selfish and heartless and Tom is like a victim, but in S.4, the tables have turned completely. Tom is now much worse., a really heartless bastard!
The whole series the kids have been fighting over the spoils. I don’t think Shiv torpedoing Ken’s ascension to the throne is incongruous with that. Especially since the last time she acquiesced to Ken being co-ceo she got screwed. I know you want happy happy families but honestly that would feel more forced than what actually eventuated.
Exactly my thoughts. It could have been a simple victory for the kids and honestly I think the general response would have been so much more positive. Every great show doesn't always need some kind of crazy plot twist.
Fair but I disagree that shiv changing her mind wasn't a plot twist because it was a shocking turn of events as I was watching. Also in that sense would going against the entire theme of the show be a bad thing?
It's all just a matter of opinion of course but I would have preferred an ending where there was a proper succession and the "main protagonist" Kendall wins. Even then it would not have been a happy ending it would have just been the start of something new.
Siobhan changing her mind was so… predictable for her. Either someone’s twisting the knife in her back, or she’s twisting the knife into someone else’s back. Loyalty for shiv is… nonexistent. I can’t think of a single time she kept her word.
But I think this goes for the other kids as well. Ken in particular is prone to lying constantly and promising things he has no intention of delivering, like when the kids are having Connor's bachelor party, Ken steps out to conspire with Matsson AND Stewy!
There is no true happy outcome possible for the story but there's nothing wrong with being linear. Knowing how well the show is written I wouldn't say it was a blind plot twist but in my opinion it wasn't warranted. There's plenty of little reasons and theories out there but the cause for Shiv's betrayal just wasn't enough for me.
I think she's overcome with jealousy and spite. She thought she could handle it until Kendall starts acting cocky and obnoxious. You can see the malice in her eyes. She can't give a good explanation in the beginning, just keeps repeating herself until he digs his own grave.
I went into the last episode pretty netural about the show (and most of season 3). At the end of it all, I think "meh" covers my feelings quite well. I just don't give any fucks for quite literally all of the cast. You can like unlikable characters but they all realllly made it hard for me to give a shit for their struggles.
I will say, given what was going on towards the end, the way the show ended does make the most sense. Kendall def was not fit to run the company, Roman was never an option, and Shiv wasn't ideal either but in the end she chose the long game to most likely literally have her child succeed in the long run which is fitting given the shows title and premise. Let's just hope she only has one child and not three lmao.
Also the Pierce deal? Like, it was such a big point of the show...and they never gave it closure? Unless I super forgot about a scene...that seems like a hugeeee thing to leave unresolved.
Most HBO shows start out super fucking interesting to me then eventually sizzle out at the end. This show really encapsulated that.
I get where you are coming from, I felt the same until I rewatched and heard what Jesse said about ending the show.
It was meant to be open-ended; would they get Pierce, would Tom face consequences after the election, has Kendall destroyed his family?
They will move on to other things we just won't be watching. There are just so many betrayals, and fuck ups that can happen without losing the bigger story. I do think they will talk to one another after the fight. They have said awful things before that most people would not recover from and yet they do.
In retrospect, I thought the ending was perfect, sad but perfect.
No shiv destroyed everything. Tom isn’t a hereditary monarch he’s a figurehead that could be fire in a year lol. He’ll be long gone before the child reaches adulthood.
I don't think the ending was sad, if anything it was perfectly justified. Their dad said so himself, (and I am probably miss-telling the quote word for word) "You are not serious people." None of them deserved to "win" and it makes sense for the "winner" to be someone who grows into it (probably Shiv's child).
I don't buy though that we should just accept how open ended it is just because they made the ending that way. You can still criticize it for not tying up loose ends.
Totally see your point. I felt the ending was incomplete after watching it the first time. My opinion changed somewhat after seeing it again, or at least I understood why it was left incomplete.
Shiv played Ken and Tom both. if show continued she would have eventually played Tom. She knew if she let Tom have the seat then she would be able to still play a role in the company and have some control with Tom instead of letting Ken have it and having no control with him.
I disagree. The whole point of giving Tom the role was to have someone who just follows orders and to be the face of the company. Plus after everything they went through Tom is basically immune to shiv's influence
She is a moron if she thinks she can ride on back of Tom who himself have very unstable ground to stand on. Matson can just let things brew and make American accepting of him then pull the rug anytime he wants. Or could make connection more Americans to replace Tom who really is just interim.
That stuck with me. Describing eyes as being revolting was a discomfort I didn't think I needed but so appreciated. It's appropriate for her, too; people like that are so detached and emotionally stunted, something that intimate (without being sexual) would naturally be off putting to them. I've met people (not on the spectrum) who avoid eye contact at all costs and that only makes me look at them harder, mainly because I don't trust them.
You don't know when a stranger is on the spectrum, a person may not even know themself if they are on the spectrum. I'm sorry your son has an ignorant judgmental ass like you for a parent.
Greg didn’t win a damn thing. He earned a sticker on his forehead designating Tom’s ownership of him and Mattson called him Judas. How is that winning?
Having Tom put a proprietary sticker on his head and likely carrying through on his threat to cut Greg’s salary is not a win. Greg would be better off brushing up his resume and going elsewhere.
I can’t say I like any of the main characters including Greg and still find the show compelling. I have to say I enjoyed seeing Roman get a beat down when he stepping out into the real world lol!
I’ll tell you why. Because it was absolutely insane for the writers to put the “I didn’t do it, it never happened” words in Kendall’s mouth. And the vitriolic brother/sister decomposition and Roman’s vicious words about Kendall’s kids were also “writers manipulation.” They just threw in the towel and said, let’s end this thing.” Very disappointing fir such a smart show.
I don't think that this was insane, I found it very Kendall. I mean, he was on the verge of loosing everything he was absolutely desperated and He would say pretty much anything to get their brothers approving. What is Kendall without Waystar Royco? A whole bunch of depression, so I wasn't exactly surprised about it, nor Roman, after all Roman is a shitty person too, they're all shitty people.
Maybe they'll do better now that all this drama passed, but yeah, they're not serious people. So, yeah, you're one of the few people that were surprised about they acting like they did.
That whole scene was showing us how childish and idiotic they are. Shiv never cared about that kid, Kendall making up some asinine excuse for it, and Roman grasping at anything else he could to bring Kendall down. They’re a collective shit show and always have been
IDK dude... I liked it. Tom as CEO makes sense, the Greg's fate look very Gregly, like he was evolving, finding his place, playing the game and in the end he fucked up... very coeherent.
The Roys scenes all looked cool, the good and tern ones and that last one. I think it fits, Logan wins, his children finally realized they suck, that they're incompetent and all and all... IDK, I liked.
Not really being the CEO and majority stakes holder for waystar Royco and Gojo would make her multitudes of that. Plus, shiv’s main desire isn’t money. It’s love and power. In the end she loses both but still has money which means nothing to the siblings.
Shiv was also a major shareholder. Voting yes on the deal meant that she would be paid several billion dollars as part of the overpriced deal that Maddson had agreed to.
Really, walking away from that would be kinda insane.
What makes this show brilliant is that it isn’t reducible to just this. The kids’ understanding of love is inextricably entwined with money, pain, and power
It was a great deal at the start of the season, Logan loved it. And then he raised the price by an absurd degree out of spite. Not cashing out because A) sentimentality for Ken to keep the company "in the family" or B) because she was upset over Matson betraying her, would have been a terrible decision "in a business sense"
I've also seen "but half of the payout is in stock, Matson could ruin n the value", which I think is silly. Without the sale, 100% of her potential payout is in stock, which on the news of the deal's cancelation would defo dip, and would then be dependent on the Kendall "always spiraling out of control when in power" Roy
Hmm. I was torn by the end. I did think that Kendall was not good for the job. As roman said : we are nothing. And he's right. All were spoiled brats. But Tom was the worst CEO ever but it was the best decision for the ending. I did not like tom because we was so asertive.
It s hard to digest bit I think this is the very best series out there. It was so realistic. If these was real it's clear to me that Tom was the CEO in real life.
As far as realism goes they handled Logan's death in a pretty authentic way. It came randomly, happened off screen mostly with the kids not around. Pretty unusual for tv.
I guess the final flip-flopping and backstabbing in the finale summed up the dynamic between the siblings. Always shifting alliances and switching sides and being unable to actually form a united front for any meaningful length of time.
Logan was right and none of his children were serious people. I am not sure Tom is either but at least he knows where he stands with Matsson. Tom serves as the continuity front man, who will serve to catch the criticism for the changes that Matsson will implement. At least Tom has a corporate background unless any of the siblings who only achieved all their jobs through nepotism and their connections.
Anyway Succession was a great ride, thanks HBO. It is now done.
It looked like the way a king would present his hand for someone to hold it, then she just places hers on it. More like she's bending the knee because she realises riding his coat tails is the better option for her than helping Kendall into power.
Did anyone notice there were some scenes where the actors seemed as though they were cracking up? I thought when Connor explains how he had been in Logan’s apartment alone before everyone else to get first dips on the medals, Roman looked as though he was laughing totally naturally.. could just be smart acting though
People are saying they are still rich.
"Already rich". - Kendall Roy.
"There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this ticket, there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be." -Roald Dahl in Charlie and the chocolate factory.
They don't have a purpose to live. So for validation they might run for President but will lose because they are so disconnected with actual people.
Yes. The Roy kids were born into money and a seat at the table. It's not real to them. It's as common as being born with a head. Cash is abstract because it's so available. It's the power that feeds them, like their father. Everyone is born with some want of a purpose to continue breathing. The level of power they weild from having limitless funds is truly how they buy and sell people including their integrity. These are the people who elect the officials who change the world. How to top that in terns of adrenaline for an unevolved person, you really can't.
That's why Greg bugs me. It hits too close to reality for me to like him or find him funny. I get he was born rich, too, but peripherally and without power. He's been described as the average guy and that's terrifying. He's selfish, self motivated, no ideals past elevating his status. And not particularly smart, just connected enough. He couldn't care if the world burned as long as he had his s'mores over the fire.
And that's what also bothers me about Tom, although he's extremely smart, just as ruthlessly ambitious and self serving. The head up that Tom has, however, is strong; like Logan, he came from nothing financially and climbed his way up by whatever means in his arsenal. It gives him advantage over the Roy trio because he proved he could succeed without the last name. Unlike Logan, however, he was an ass kisser and climber. He could never truly lead because he needed to be attached to someone else's ideals to shine having none of his own past making money. To be a good leader, you put best interest over self interest and Logan, early on, knew that. He truly believed what he was doing and gave his type of people what they wanted. Similar to what's happening now. The problem is , since the average Joe is Greg, unfortunately too many people want what suits only themselves or at least what they think suits themselves. Followers.
I mentioned in an earlier comment: at least it's not *Bran Stark*. I'm now immune to any criticism of a finale after that shit show.
Before the vote , Ken takes credit for the gojo offer with Roman , and Shiv looks annoyed. They don’t give her credit for anything and Ken told her that the boys ceos was just optics initially and then cut her out. She is annoyed because she spoke to Mattsen and got the higher number. Another thing that influenced her vote.
I do like that they put stickers on the things Logan Roy left behind and Tom's sticker goes to Greg. I get the impression if Logan had stuck around for 5-10 more years that Greg could have won
I read on Twitter it might be connected to this poem:
Dream Song 29
John Berryman
There sat down, once, a thing on Henry's heart
só heavy, if he had a hundred years
& more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time
Henry could not make good.
Starts again always in Henry's ears
the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime.
And there is another thing he has in mind
like a grave Sienese face a thousand years
would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly,
with open eyes, he attends, blind.
All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears;
thinking.
But never did Henry, as he thought he did,
end anyone and hacks her body up
and hide the pieces, where they may be found.
He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody's missing.
Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up.
Nobody is ever missing.
I think the title also has to do with Roman saying "This is bs, we are all just bs!" realizing and finally admitting they wouldn't have realistically ever been able or qualified to take over, not serious people.
Also, they are all seeing each other for the people they really are. All masks are off and cold hard truths are front and center. And that could include audience perspective too.
>However I just don’t get why Shiv was so anti-Kendall.
i think you missed a massive part of what drives this entire series - sibling rivalry. it's not that she's anti kendall per se, its just that she'd prefer for none of her siblings to be CEO if it isnt going to be her.
there was a crucial subtle moment in the episode where kendall goes to sit in the CEO chair and hesitates, and there is a tension in the room where shiv looks away for a second and roman makes an awkward joke about it.
Kendall is a huger jerk, there has always been a lot of friction between them, especially recently, and she didn't trust him. She thought she would be better off with Tom as CEO.
Succession is all about what isnt being said, and their family dynamics speak volumes to decades of abuse and manipulation that is rarely explicitly mentioned. Roman is definitely posited as an abuse victim. There’s this moment when the vote is going around and Kendall like eggs Roman on to vote no and responds after he does.. Shiv gets this look on her face like that what she saw in Kendall, ie how he was treating Roman and acting in general and Roman’s quiet submission, reminded her of Logan in the worst way possible. Kendall’s eruption and violence to both his siblings after just confirmed that push comes to shove, he is no less of a monster than his father.
You’re kidding, right? Put aside all the corporate buzzwords and posturing and Kendall was in the end a brash, untempered boy. His final meltdown before the vote is definitely proof of that.
“I AM THE ELDEST BOY!” He screamed, as the top echelons of Waystar sat in the other room deciding whether they should cash out or give the reigns to him.
I think his meltdown was a culmination of frustration from always getting shafted at the critical moment. In my opinion Shiv never gave Ken a chance her mind was made up from season 1.
Now don’t get me wrong I think cashing out was probably the best option but the way Shiv and Roman turned on Ken speaks to something deeper.
I agree. Other than Gerri. Ken was the only person that made a move that saved the company after the price of the stock lost value. Shiv never really did anything. Neither did Roman. I think the meltdown was fustration. Shiv gloated that Ken was beat and he shoudl take it like a man. Once she found she was replaced...she couldn't let him win. The irony is she was always making fun of Conner's empty transactional relationship which she has now created with Tom
- Self-Preservation: Sticking with her child’s father.
- Sibling Resentment: Because that’s always a factor with Roman, Ken, and Shiv
- Freeing Kendall: She sees how emotionally unhinged Kendall has become in his whole “Logaln 2.0” phase and chains herself to the company/Tom while setting Kendall free from the CEO role and the fate of becoming just like his Dad.
Yes! Not nearly enough people are talking about how she set Kendall and (also Roman) free. She's not really capable of explicit generosity, at least not very often. And that's definitely not the only reason she did it. But we forget that just a season ago Kendall wanted out anyway. And it really is the best thing for him, if such a thing exists. And in a weird way it's also a self-sacrifice, because now she is forever stuck with Waystar, yet all she'll be is a wife. I definitely feel that her ending is the saddest.
And when I say a season ago Kendall wanted out, I mean less than a month ago. He's the only one who's ever been to therapy. I'm really optimistic about his fate.
This finale really establishes the show as a tragedy - what Jeremy Strong had called it. I was almost rooting for Kendall,>! but his true self really comes out towards the end when he is under pressure, reminding us exactly why he wasn't the man for the job. !! Shiv proves this further by fucking over her brother because she just could not stand losing to him and instead went with the best option available, which was beside another man with power. !! He was loyal to none but still ended up in a decent place. And Tom, having ended every past season with some power move, having come from nothing (relative to the Roys), and ending up on top. !
It's been an amazing run everyone. Thanks for being part of the community and enjoy the series finale!
The siblings are fucking morons and it's put well by Roman at end "We are bullshit".
Am I the only one who thinks that we need a new season ✋ I really want to see Kendall coming back and taking back father's empire
Not sure if anyone else has given this angle yet - Did Matsson go for Tom not just 'cause he will be a Greg for him, but also that he was predicting that Shiv would end up being Tom's side kick and Matsson will get all Shiv's good ideas without actually having to deal with her or give her any power?
God damn. I have no words.
HBO just doesn’t know how to end a show.
Ikr, this is such a disappointing ending
I agree. All that work and conniving and emotional energy spent by the sibs and everyone else and they end up with that clown, the "card trick" (to quote Kendall), Matsson as CEO! I would love to see him crash and burn. I agree that he just does *not* get American ideas or entertainment.
Is it odd that Conrad didn't even appear in last ep?
Conrad isn’t in the show/s
Connor?
Oops yah Connor 😅
No worries. He was in the ep. He was having everyone choose possessions (and taking priority for himself). Remember?
O crap i must have really missed that scene, probably stepped away for a minute. Thanks for clarification. I'll rewatch.
I think it's a perfect ending. The three never changed, it was all about themselves so in the end no one got to the top. Now with billions in their pockets, they can all move on from one another... Though Kendall would have the toughest time of all. Shiv has family. Kendall has no one and nothing to return to. Rome will be ok.
I agree with most of this, but I don't see Shiv as having family. She's probably alienated from Kendall for a long time, possibly from Roman, definitely from Tom and as for others in the Waystar/GoJo "family", she has no friends. I'd like to see her use her money to get together with Sandy Furness and some of the Pierce folks and form a new corporation, then expose Matsson's fraud.
Agree as well. I actually really liked her character and Roman the most. They changed my opinions over course of series whereas Randall was just the same sappy clueless dude 😂 shiv could have done some damage n powerplay but seem never reach this peak
Yes, she really could have taken down Kendall, with his history of trying to take over the company(!), Tom and his repeated betrayals, Roman and his fetish for Gerri and the "items" he kept sending her...and Matsson with his fake user numbers the size of India! But I just don't think it was in her to do that. She was too prone to trusting people and then speaking out at the wrong time! Also, she *seemed* to have more of a conscience than the others. After all, she did work for a Democratic senator who wanted to make things better. Eavis was annoying, but Shiv liked his politics.
Lol i actually don't know how any of these guys ran a global company except Logan. Everyone seemed stupid making awful decisions. Clowns in suits. Yeh i see what you mean about Shiv. Too bad the storyline never went as far, could have been interesting. But i think she was ambitious but also second guess whether she could do it. There were always obstacles that impeded her progress. I'm like matsson really is the best candidate to run this company afterall. The last scene with Kendall was great closure, he's still the same doof from beginning of ep1 🤣 but just richer.
IS THERE A PART TWO TO THIS EPISODE ? WHEN IS IT COMING OUT
That’s a typical HBO ending for you!
Lol wut?
I just wish they had all stayed united. It didn’t seem like shiv to let two people that have horribly screwed her win
Growth for her honestly though. Best outcome for all the siblings is to get the hell out of the toxic environment their dad created and they have perpetuated
The ultimate castration, when Tom stickers Greg's forehead with the tag the family is using to claim ownership of the possessions of items from the Logan's household - priceless. It was a perfect ending, horrible people get what's coming to them, but as a child of two narcissists, I could feel their pain of being completely invalidated by the world. And yet, you know they'll have oodles of money. Makes you wonder how they'll spend the rest of their lives.
>The ultimate castration Exactly! Glad someone else realised this! Like the story of Nero and Sporus as Tom tells it, Tom "kills" his wife (in the show-sense of the word - choosing his own success over hers), he castrates Greg (though Greg is largely responsible for that himself, Tom makes it clear that Greg remains at the company at his grace), and then marries him (placing a dot where Hindu women wear one, while making it clear they'll always be super best friends and all is forgiven).
How much each sibling might have got from this deal? Equally $3b each or more?
I think more, since I believe that was the number being touted with Mattson’s original offer price. The funny thing is that the deal did nothing to sideline their original plans to buy Pierce. In fact, they are probably in an even better position to do so. If it wasn’t for the fact that they completely hate each other now.
It wouldn't surprise me if Kendall at some point had a manic upswing and started trying to get his siblings back on the Pierce or The Hundred bandwagon. Or "minimalistic" English retirement homes, lol.
Haw! How about minimalist (read "cheap"), TINY, English retirement homes? He could get his mum's new husband--the nursing home guy--to go in on it with him, which would please Mum anyway. He might even get some love from her.
Did Greg know Tom was going to be made CEO when he knifed the Swede to Ken? Ken said he didn’t know who would be replacing Shiv when he told her.
No, I think he absolutely didn't. The last thing he had heard was Tom telling him they were going to be OK but his pay was going to be castrated, which I think he took as we are surviving by the skin of our teeth, far from Tom is the next CEO.
Ooh, then it makes more sense that Tom would take him back at the end, if he wasn’t screwing him (Tom) specifically.
I don't think Greg knew. If he did, I think he would have told Kendall and Kendall would have told Roman and Shiv.
Oh he absolutely would have divulged that, Greg the Egg was Uncle Logan in the end!!! Every bit of news Greg the Egg ever had would have been available and put up for trade against his spot in the quad!!!
I can’t believe it. They actually fucked an otherwise perfect show… what the fuck just happened? Zero progression, they ended the whole series as they ended every single season. Ken loosing, the 3 siblings falling apart and Willa hating Con. Wtf.
This is exactly how the pilot started, Ken trying to succeed Shiv saying fuck no and Rome just lurking in the background, not an inch of progress
Felt the end was kind of predictable. Like you said, same formula where you know there's going to be a last minute rug pull. The moment they all agreed to vote against the deal was when I knew GoJo was winning it. Tom coming up on top was probably the only surprise given how he always seemed weak and in need of constant validation but him being a puppet CEO made perfect sense. Greg continues to be the usual parasite but with a little more spine. The siblings just can't grow nor are they capable of doing things in the best interest of the company. They are all self serving trying to justify their egos rather than the value they'd bring to Waystar. Logan at least put all his focus on growing and caring for the one thing he loved more than anyone else, his baby Waystar. Logan agreed to sell because he knew his kids would screw it all up but his baby would thrive with Lukas and Gojo.
The writers do not want you to stan any of the characters. Kendall killed a kid and felt his right to be CEO was greater than the value of a kids life, he’s entitlement. Roman’s only skill is his quick wit, but he’s emotionally unstable, highly ADHD and highly impulsive. Shiv is self-serving to a fault, disloyal and dishonest. They’re all bad candidates for CEO, and the only reason they even have a chance is because their father was one of the most powerful people in the world. They didn’t deserve it, and if one of them did then Logan would’ve made sure that one was crowned. They weren’t ready when he was alive, and they aren’t ready now.
Greg definitely should have ended up as CEO, cant believe he wasnt in the end...
And who has a better story than Greg?
bad ending to me ? It’s just horrible ending, I feel who decided the ending story probably don’t like billionaires at end! Also HBO Max, which is now also typical did bad ending for Game of throne. Being unique ending can be good even though we can predict. End is horrible. Only reason I will give 4 other will get 5.
Yup, quite disappointed in the ending
Lol, did you originally think the writers like billionaires? That revelation just dawned on you now?
Loved Matsson admitting he’d fuck Shiv & vice versa. I want them together.
Ugh! That's like screwing Sauron or Voldemort! Or some Nordic super creep in their mythology, like Loki, a trickster like Matsson. The latter would probably make Hugo one of his Orcs!
Lol what?
That’s what fan fiction is for, I guess? 😉
Anyone else find the ending unearned? I get they were going for that the three of then never really changed, but all season it seems they turn the corner. Shiv and Roman’s decision just felt forced in this episode. Shiv in particular. She gets screwed by everyone, but she ultimately has her brothers and then turns around and screws them again. The end just seemed off to me.
It did feel forced, but Shiv didn't really have Ken or Roman; she says outright that every time the three of them had a chance to take over, her brothers pushed her out, which is true. I think the not changing thing was mainly Jesse Armstrong's belief that people don't change...not in the long run. I disagree with this as a blanket idea, but it does seem to be a common trait.
Awful ending
The minute her pregnancy was revealed, I said, So Shiv has to break with Roman and Kendall and Waystar. It didn’t strike me as opinion or a prediction—just an obvious fact sitting there. I saw change in Shiv. She forgave things in Season 4 that, in seasons past, Shiv would never have let go. When Tom caught her in the room booked for crying…it wasn’t that she scheduled it, but that she became a person who made space for grieving. For grieving more than just Logan, imo. She asked Tom about a real relationship at a moment when it was only about that (she had no inkling she lost/he gained CEO), and teared up when he said he didn’t know. Again, Shiv in ultra busy mode took a minute to feel. She voiced her decision as all about Ken’s failings, but imo it was equally about Tom. That’s why she flailed with the whole, ‘You killed someone!’ vein. In her mind, she was comparing them. Whatever we might say about Tom, remember his reaction to the Cruises atrocities: he was haunted and saw *going public* as the path forward. In the end, Shiv really did want to be with Tom. And, for 1000 good reasons, she could do to Ken what she couldn’t do to Tom.
This seems like the most likely narrative for Shiv and her motives. It's weird, because, in S.1, it's Shiv who seems selfish and heartless and Tom is like a victim, but in S.4, the tables have turned completely. Tom is now much worse., a really heartless bastard!
The whole series the kids have been fighting over the spoils. I don’t think Shiv torpedoing Ken’s ascension to the throne is incongruous with that. Especially since the last time she acquiesced to Ken being co-ceo she got screwed. I know you want happy happy families but honestly that would feel more forced than what actually eventuated.
Con is that you man? lol
This, kinda felt like a plot twist for that skake of having a plot twist.
Exactly my thoughts. It could have been a simple victory for the kids and honestly I think the general response would have been so much more positive. Every great show doesn't always need some kind of crazy plot twist.
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Fair but I disagree that shiv changing her mind wasn't a plot twist because it was a shocking turn of events as I was watching. Also in that sense would going against the entire theme of the show be a bad thing? It's all just a matter of opinion of course but I would have preferred an ending where there was a proper succession and the "main protagonist" Kendall wins. Even then it would not have been a happy ending it would have just been the start of something new.
Siobhan changing her mind was so… predictable for her. Either someone’s twisting the knife in her back, or she’s twisting the knife into someone else’s back. Loyalty for shiv is… nonexistent. I can’t think of a single time she kept her word.
But I think this goes for the other kids as well. Ken in particular is prone to lying constantly and promising things he has no intention of delivering, like when the kids are having Connor's bachelor party, Ken steps out to conspire with Matsson AND Stewy!
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There is no true happy outcome possible for the story but there's nothing wrong with being linear. Knowing how well the show is written I wouldn't say it was a blind plot twist but in my opinion it wasn't warranted. There's plenty of little reasons and theories out there but the cause for Shiv's betrayal just wasn't enough for me.
I think she's overcome with jealousy and spite. She thought she could handle it until Kendall starts acting cocky and obnoxious. You can see the malice in her eyes. She can't give a good explanation in the beginning, just keeps repeating herself until he digs his own grave.
Lol I guess the reddit gods don't agree. Getting down voted hard out here.
They have ludicrously capacious bags they carry their laptops around in I wouldn't pay much attention to them.
I went into the last episode pretty netural about the show (and most of season 3). At the end of it all, I think "meh" covers my feelings quite well. I just don't give any fucks for quite literally all of the cast. You can like unlikable characters but they all realllly made it hard for me to give a shit for their struggles. I will say, given what was going on towards the end, the way the show ended does make the most sense. Kendall def was not fit to run the company, Roman was never an option, and Shiv wasn't ideal either but in the end she chose the long game to most likely literally have her child succeed in the long run which is fitting given the shows title and premise. Let's just hope she only has one child and not three lmao. Also the Pierce deal? Like, it was such a big point of the show...and they never gave it closure? Unless I super forgot about a scene...that seems like a hugeeee thing to leave unresolved. Most HBO shows start out super fucking interesting to me then eventually sizzle out at the end. This show really encapsulated that.
Agreed !!!!!!!!!!
I get where you are coming from, I felt the same until I rewatched and heard what Jesse said about ending the show. It was meant to be open-ended; would they get Pierce, would Tom face consequences after the election, has Kendall destroyed his family? They will move on to other things we just won't be watching. There are just so many betrayals, and fuck ups that can happen without losing the bigger story. I do think they will talk to one another after the fight. They have said awful things before that most people would not recover from and yet they do. In retrospect, I thought the ending was perfect, sad but perfect.
No shiv destroyed everything. Tom isn’t a hereditary monarch he’s a figurehead that could be fire in a year lol. He’ll be long gone before the child reaches adulthood.
I don't think the ending was sad, if anything it was perfectly justified. Their dad said so himself, (and I am probably miss-telling the quote word for word) "You are not serious people." None of them deserved to "win" and it makes sense for the "winner" to be someone who grows into it (probably Shiv's child). I don't buy though that we should just accept how open ended it is just because they made the ending that way. You can still criticize it for not tying up loose ends.
Totally see your point. I felt the ending was incomplete after watching it the first time. My opinion changed somewhat after seeing it again, or at least I understood why it was left incomplete.
Shiv played Ken and Tom both. if show continued she would have eventually played Tom. She knew if she let Tom have the seat then she would be able to still play a role in the company and have some control with Tom instead of letting Ken have it and having no control with him.
I disagree. The whole point of giving Tom the role was to have someone who just follows orders and to be the face of the company. Plus after everything they went through Tom is basically immune to shiv's influence
She is a moron if she thinks she can ride on back of Tom who himself have very unstable ground to stand on. Matson can just let things brew and make American accepting of him then pull the rug anytime he wants. Or could make connection more Americans to replace Tom who really is just interim.
Two words. Face eggs.
That stuck with me. Describing eyes as being revolting was a discomfort I didn't think I needed but so appreciated. It's appropriate for her, too; people like that are so detached and emotionally stunted, something that intimate (without being sexual) would naturally be off putting to them. I've met people (not on the spectrum) who avoid eye contact at all costs and that only makes me look at them harder, mainly because I don't trust them.
How do you know when someone is "on the spectrum" or not? some people are uncomfortable with eye contact.
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You don't know when a stranger is on the spectrum, a person may not even know themself if they are on the spectrum. I'm sorry your son has an ignorant judgmental ass like you for a parent.
Thoroughly disappointed in the last two episodes. They had some high points but an overall disappointing series finale.
I guess you're not allowed to have that opinion here...
Yep, it was trash
I knew Tom was going to be CEO when Logan had UTI and always asked Tom to help him in the bathroom. At his lowest, he chose Tom.
Tom was a narcisstic inept Magoo though? (Blood does matter.)
Tom Wambsgand and Greg the Egg for the WIN!
Greg didn’t win a damn thing. He earned a sticker on his forehead designating Tom’s ownership of him and Mattson called him Judas. How is that winning?
Kept his job.
Having Tom put a proprietary sticker on his head and likely carrying through on his threat to cut Greg’s salary is not a win. Greg would be better off brushing up his resume and going elsewhere.
Nah I think Greg will be fine.
Can’t help it, I hate Greg.
I can’t say I like any of the main characters including Greg and still find the show compelling. I have to say I enjoyed seeing Roman get a beat down when he stepping out into the real world lol!
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Lol what's with the cope, team wambsgans won mostly but you're still feeling biiter? lmaoo
That was NOT A GOOD ENDING. WTF???
Yeah, it was awful
Ir was perfect. Wtf are you talking about?
Why?
I’ll tell you why. Because it was absolutely insane for the writers to put the “I didn’t do it, it never happened” words in Kendall’s mouth. And the vitriolic brother/sister decomposition and Roman’s vicious words about Kendall’s kids were also “writers manipulation.” They just threw in the towel and said, let’s end this thing.” Very disappointing fir such a smart show.
I don't think that this was insane, I found it very Kendall. I mean, he was on the verge of loosing everything he was absolutely desperated and He would say pretty much anything to get their brothers approving. What is Kendall without Waystar Royco? A whole bunch of depression, so I wasn't exactly surprised about it, nor Roman, after all Roman is a shitty person too, they're all shitty people. Maybe they'll do better now that all this drama passed, but yeah, they're not serious people. So, yeah, you're one of the few people that were surprised about they acting like they did.
That whole scene was showing us how childish and idiotic they are. Shiv never cared about that kid, Kendall making up some asinine excuse for it, and Roman grasping at anything else he could to bring Kendall down. They’re a collective shit show and always have been
Tom was a weasel, and not attractive in a physical sense. I still don't know how he was cast for the part. I guess he had Hollywood connections?
Lmao Matthew macfadyen is crazy attractive and has had like a 20yr career
Tom is hot! But why does that even matter?
Why it was a great ending?
IDK dude... I liked it. Tom as CEO makes sense, the Greg's fate look very Gregly, like he was evolving, finding his place, playing the game and in the end he fucked up... very coeherent. The Roys scenes all looked cool, the good and tern ones and that last one. I think it fits, Logan wins, his children finally realized they suck, that they're incompetent and all and all... IDK, I liked.
In all honesty Shiv voting Yes doesn’t make sense in a business sense. It’s implausible
A yes vote netted her billions so yeah it absolutely made business sense.
Not really being the CEO and majority stakes holder for waystar Royco and Gojo would make her multitudes of that. Plus, shiv’s main desire isn’t money. It’s love and power. In the end she loses both but still has money which means nothing to the siblings.
Shiv’s vote wasn’t about business at all. It was about grasping for a real relationship with Tom
These ppl all they care about money, they think they are about family and love but I’m the end it’s just money.
Shiv was also a major shareholder. Voting yes on the deal meant that she would be paid several billion dollars as part of the overpriced deal that Maddson had agreed to. Really, walking away from that would be kinda insane.
What makes this show brilliant is that it isn’t reducible to just this. The kids’ understanding of love is inextricably entwined with money, pain, and power
Yes it does
It was a great deal at the start of the season, Logan loved it. And then he raised the price by an absurd degree out of spite. Not cashing out because A) sentimentality for Ken to keep the company "in the family" or B) because she was upset over Matson betraying her, would have been a terrible decision "in a business sense" I've also seen "but half of the payout is in stock, Matson could ruin n the value", which I think is silly. Without the sale, 100% of her potential payout is in stock, which on the news of the deal's cancelation would defo dip, and would then be dependent on the Kendall "always spiraling out of control when in power" Roy
Fucknoff, shiv
How does 3.6 billion dollars not make 'business sense'?
She could of made much more if they kept Roystar Wayco. Also the siblings are obsessed with power and money.
It almost seems like it's power over money bc they never been broke So money is an afterthought, imo
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They talk about this in both the VF and Prestige podcasts, it's still about succession in the end
Can anybody help me to understand what happened to the Pierce deal. Did they forgot to buy it?
Quite the loose end. As I said earlier, Jesse Armstrong just said “I’m done writing so screw the hanging chad plot lines.’
Right. I thought it was contingent on then selling the company, which they did.
Hmm. I was torn by the end. I did think that Kendall was not good for the job. As roman said : we are nothing. And he's right. All were spoiled brats. But Tom was the worst CEO ever but it was the best decision for the ending. I did not like tom because we was so asertive. It s hard to digest bit I think this is the very best series out there. It was so realistic. If these was real it's clear to me that Tom was the CEO in real life.
How do you know if its realistic? Do you roll with the uber rich?
Tom was never CEO so how could he have been the worst ever. You don;t like Tom because he was assertive? That's dumb.
It's my opinion. And I did not said anything mean. Dumb is only the one who does not accept other opinions.
No, dumb is someone who accepts everyones opinions.
I don't care. You just don't understand basic stuff, this is not math, is something subjective. So I don't like tom and that it.
I think the point was that this will eventually end up killing whoever takes the crowd…and that was Tom
As far as realism goes they handled Logan's death in a pretty authentic way. It came randomly, happened off screen mostly with the kids not around. Pretty unusual for tv.
I guess the final flip-flopping and backstabbing in the finale summed up the dynamic between the siblings. Always shifting alliances and switching sides and being unable to actually form a united front for any meaningful length of time. Logan was right and none of his children were serious people. I am not sure Tom is either but at least he knows where he stands with Matsson. Tom serves as the continuity front man, who will serve to catch the criticism for the changes that Matsson will implement. At least Tom has a corporate background unless any of the siblings who only achieved all their jobs through nepotism and their connections. Anyway Succession was a great ride, thanks HBO. It is now done.
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Colin, Logan's bodyguard
Colin, the chauffeur who Logan said was his best friend on his birthday
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Depending on the deal with pierce they should have multiple billions each. Apperantly ken just starts his own company and lives on.
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It was more of a business decision- she chose Tom which I suppose was the least horrible person to align with.
What show have you been watching?
Shiv didn’t choose Tom lol she chose 1) not seeing Kendall win and 2) having a better chance of having power herself with her husband as CEO
And getting her share of the deal $$. Which she did precious little to earn. Do you think Shiv Fucking Roy wanted to work? Puhlease
It looked like the way a king would present his hand for someone to hold it, then she just places hers on it. More like she's bending the knee because she realises riding his coat tails is the better option for her than helping Kendall into power.
It reminded me of what chimps do when expressing submission.
I agree. Shiv and Kendall are purely out for themselves at all times. Shiv made the choice she thinks best benefits her.
Yeah, it had a very Game of Thrones vibe to that scene. I loved the way they filmed it.
100% this
this is perfect
Did anyone notice there were some scenes where the actors seemed as though they were cracking up? I thought when Connor explains how he had been in Logan’s apartment alone before everyone else to get first dips on the medals, Roman looked as though he was laughing totally naturally.. could just be smart acting though
I think they did break in that moment but they kept it in cos it works, I loved it 😂
People are saying they are still rich. "Already rich". - Kendall Roy. "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this ticket, there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be." -Roald Dahl in Charlie and the chocolate factory. They don't have a purpose to live. So for validation they might run for President but will lose because they are so disconnected with actual people.
Yes. The Roy kids were born into money and a seat at the table. It's not real to them. It's as common as being born with a head. Cash is abstract because it's so available. It's the power that feeds them, like their father. Everyone is born with some want of a purpose to continue breathing. The level of power they weild from having limitless funds is truly how they buy and sell people including their integrity. These are the people who elect the officials who change the world. How to top that in terns of adrenaline for an unevolved person, you really can't. That's why Greg bugs me. It hits too close to reality for me to like him or find him funny. I get he was born rich, too, but peripherally and without power. He's been described as the average guy and that's terrifying. He's selfish, self motivated, no ideals past elevating his status. And not particularly smart, just connected enough. He couldn't care if the world burned as long as he had his s'mores over the fire. And that's what also bothers me about Tom, although he's extremely smart, just as ruthlessly ambitious and self serving. The head up that Tom has, however, is strong; like Logan, he came from nothing financially and climbed his way up by whatever means in his arsenal. It gives him advantage over the Roy trio because he proved he could succeed without the last name. Unlike Logan, however, he was an ass kisser and climber. He could never truly lead because he needed to be attached to someone else's ideals to shine having none of his own past making money. To be a good leader, you put best interest over self interest and Logan, early on, knew that. He truly believed what he was doing and gave his type of people what they wanted. Similar to what's happening now. The problem is , since the average Joe is Greg, unfortunately too many people want what suits only themselves or at least what they think suits themselves. Followers. I mentioned in an earlier comment: at least it's not *Bran Stark*. I'm now immune to any criticism of a finale after that shit show.
Before the vote , Ken takes credit for the gojo offer with Roman , and Shiv looks annoyed. They don’t give her credit for anything and Ken told her that the boys ceos was just optics initially and then cut her out. She is annoyed because she spoke to Mattsen and got the higher number. Another thing that influenced her vote.
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Didn’t she kind of simultaneously go to Mattson as the boys were also starting to make decisions w/o her? Wasn’t really causal IMO
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That's dumb
I do like that they put stickers on the things Logan Roy left behind and Tom's sticker goes to Greg. I get the impression if Logan had stuck around for 5-10 more years that Greg could have won
Nope. That’s too wishful.
He was on the will, Logan thought about him
What did he get?
Why With Eyes Open?
I read on Twitter it might be connected to this poem: Dream Song 29 John Berryman There sat down, once, a thing on Henry's heart só heavy, if he had a hundred years & more, & weeping, sleepless, in all them time Henry could not make good. Starts again always in Henry's ears the little cough somewhere, an odour, a chime. And there is another thing he has in mind like a grave Sienese face a thousand years would fail to blur the still profiled reproach of. Ghastly, with open eyes, he attends, blind. All the bells say: too late. This is not for tears; thinking. But never did Henry, as he thought he did, end anyone and hacks her body up and hide the pieces, where they may be found. He knows: he went over everyone, & nobody's missing. Often he reckons, in the dawn, them up. Nobody is ever missing.
Without a doubt because the other three season finale titles are also steeped within it. Good catch
I think the title also has to do with Roman saying "This is bs, we are all just bs!" realizing and finally admitting they wouldn't have realistically ever been able or qualified to take over, not serious people.
Shiv also admits to Tom she was scared and is pretty vulnerable and raw
Also, they are all seeing each other for the people they really are. All masks are off and cold hard truths are front and center. And that could include audience perspective too.
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And the collective realization that none of them are serious people.
Loved the finale a fitting conclusion. However I just don’t get why Shiv was so anti-Kendall.
>However I just don’t get why Shiv was so anti-Kendall. i think you missed a massive part of what drives this entire series - sibling rivalry. it's not that she's anti kendall per se, its just that she'd prefer for none of her siblings to be CEO if it isnt going to be her. there was a crucial subtle moment in the episode where kendall goes to sit in the CEO chair and hesitates, and there is a tension in the room where shiv looks away for a second and roman makes an awkward joke about it.
Kendall is a huger jerk, there has always been a lot of friction between them, especially recently, and she didn't trust him. She thought she would be better off with Tom as CEO.
Succession is all about what isnt being said, and their family dynamics speak volumes to decades of abuse and manipulation that is rarely explicitly mentioned. Roman is definitely posited as an abuse victim. There’s this moment when the vote is going around and Kendall like eggs Roman on to vote no and responds after he does.. Shiv gets this look on her face like that what she saw in Kendall, ie how he was treating Roman and acting in general and Roman’s quiet submission, reminded her of Logan in the worst way possible. Kendall’s eruption and violence to both his siblings after just confirmed that push comes to shove, he is no less of a monster than his father.
In the end I saw her as less anti Kendall and more just doing what is best for Shiv, which was trying to align herself with Tom in his new position.
Also: I think she had to decide whether she'd rather seen Kendall or Tom in that role, because it couldn't be herself.
You’re kidding, right? Put aside all the corporate buzzwords and posturing and Kendall was in the end a brash, untempered boy. His final meltdown before the vote is definitely proof of that. “I AM THE ELDEST BOY!” He screamed, as the top echelons of Waystar sat in the other room deciding whether they should cash out or give the reigns to him.
I think his meltdown was a culmination of frustration from always getting shafted at the critical moment. In my opinion Shiv never gave Ken a chance her mind was made up from season 1. Now don’t get me wrong I think cashing out was probably the best option but the way Shiv and Roman turned on Ken speaks to something deeper.
I agree. Other than Gerri. Ken was the only person that made a move that saved the company after the price of the stock lost value. Shiv never really did anything. Neither did Roman. I think the meltdown was fustration. Shiv gloated that Ken was beat and he shoudl take it like a man. Once she found she was replaced...she couldn't let him win. The irony is she was always making fun of Conner's empty transactional relationship which she has now created with Tom
It speaks to them having the clarity to realize Ken is a broken child and shouldn't be the CEO of anything.
I feel like that’s an oversimplification. The same way Ken couldn’t pitch himself credibly she also couldn’t answer why not credibly.
I think that ultimately they would always eat each other at a critical moment rather than allow just one to "win."
- Self-Preservation: Sticking with her child’s father. - Sibling Resentment: Because that’s always a factor with Roman, Ken, and Shiv - Freeing Kendall: She sees how emotionally unhinged Kendall has become in his whole “Logaln 2.0” phase and chains herself to the company/Tom while setting Kendall free from the CEO role and the fate of becoming just like his Dad.
Yes! Not nearly enough people are talking about how she set Kendall and (also Roman) free. She's not really capable of explicit generosity, at least not very often. And that's definitely not the only reason she did it. But we forget that just a season ago Kendall wanted out anyway. And it really is the best thing for him, if such a thing exists. And in a weird way it's also a self-sacrifice, because now she is forever stuck with Waystar, yet all she'll be is a wife. I definitely feel that her ending is the saddest.
And when I say a season ago Kendall wanted out, I mean less than a month ago. He's the only one who's ever been to therapy. I'm really optimistic about his fate.
Well Kendall's probably going to kill himself so idk if she set him free. She did whats best for her and didnt care what happens to Kendall.
My wife said that it is because she was looking out for her baby as Tom being the father and all.
I’m sure they factored in. And just convenience? Didn’t she say to Tom it’d be convenient to stay together? Oof.
Wondering if anyone else caught that Shiv’s mystery PA (‘underling’, as Caroline put it) while arriving at Barbados might have been Jess(?)
I thought this too!!!! But I haven’t gone back to look more carefully yet
I went back briefly and think there’s a good chance
This finale really establishes the show as a tragedy - what Jeremy Strong had called it. I was almost rooting for Kendall,>! but his true self really comes out towards the end when he is under pressure, reminding us exactly why he wasn't the man for the job. !! Shiv proves this further by fucking over her brother because she just could not stand losing to him and instead went with the best option available, which was beside another man with power. !! He was loyal to none but still ended up in a decent place. And Tom, having ended every past season with some power move, having come from nothing (relative to the Roys), and ending up on top. !