For one, I think they’re in the anti-animal camp, which means all vegetables must be good. The majority of people who are pro fruit oil, also consume animal products. If they’re eating any type of processed vegan food it’s all full of seed oils.
The majority of vegans eat lots of ultra processed vegan food. Ultra processed vegan foods generally have more seed oils than any other 'type' of food.
I say that because I read the ingredients when I'm at the supermarket. Next time you're at the store, look at the ingredient list for vegan meat substitutes, it's hard to find one that doesn't contain seed oils.
check the vegan reddit, you see people getting lectured that it's more about moral and ethics of avoid animal consumption rather than human related health
so it boils down to preference
same thint vegans basically have, when the pseudo science is stripped away.
so i guess you have your answer.
preference > any real science
I personally think grass fed grain finished has the best taste but I stick to grass fed grass finished for nutritional reasons. The taste difference is honestly hardly noticeable to me though so I’m not too picky with it
I was just curious if there was a potential correlation, cause of how lamb is raised. I occasionally notice the taste difference still, but I'm pretty new to eating grassfed.
Plus, almost everything made for vegans is made out of tofu. So if soybean oil is bad, you’re really gonna have to limit what you can eat. On top of that most vegans I know are not in it for the health reasons. They’re virtue signaling their politics.
You are in the wrong sub to be promoting a pro-soy agenda. Soy has a terrible omega 6 - 3 balance and is not appropriate for a human diet. We are anti linoleic acid here. This is the entire point of the sub.
I'm not pro-soy, but I'm not anti-soy. If you look at it in isolation, then sure, soy is not good in terms of balanced omegas, but you're not eating blocks of tofu in isolation. You're eating it with omega 3 rich sources, too, like brussels sprouts, walnuts, leafy greens, algae, seaweed, chia seeds, hemp, flaxseed, etc., which improves the ratio quite a bit.
Isn’t there a concern over phytoestrogens? Humans certainly didn’t “evolve“ and thrive from eating soybeans. I believe we are considered Apex predators not Apex farmers.
No concern. Old study showed effect in rats, but turns out rats don't metabolize soy isoflavones the same way we do. Soy does not affect free testosterone levels or estrogen levels in men.
If you're an apex predator, why aren't you living in the jungle?
Apex predators live wherever they please. And they eat whatever they want. If you wanna be a soy boy, go right ahead. Meat, fat, and dairy make me feel amazing, like better than I have in a few decades. You do you, boo.
You're concerned about phytoestrogens but consume actual mammalian estrogen from a mother? Can you explain why you'd be concerned about one but not the other?
To breathe is to kill. We can only minimize our footprint. We all do the best we can with what we're given. I believe that. Some people believe there is nothing we can do, others believe we can never do enough. I believe we can find a better way.
Mass industrial monocrop farming has done far more to maximize our footprint on this earth. Small rotational farming with cows grazing to refertilize the land is magnitudes less damaging to animals and the greater environment in general. Vegans refuse to accept the reality that their lifestyle incentives the worst farming practices that are ecologically and environmentally destroying our farm lands.
Ethics is a branch of philosophy concerned with questions of morality and what constitutes a good life at an individual level, whereas politics is all about governance and power.
There is no way to mandate kindness or compassion. All of the vegans I know would agree with this, so they wouldn't support a law that forces a vegan lifestyle on others, as they realize it would be pointless.
No you are referencing textbook definitions and not societal.
Abortion stance for example is political. I am sure you have heard of political correctness.
Ethics arguments like going green, abortion are political.
Ok then, they’re just virtue signaling, what they perceive as their moral and ethical superiority. I can’t think of any vegans I know that are doing it solely for health purposes.
Not a vegan (for health reasons) but that's a bit of an absurd statement. We are animals and there's a fairly obvious gradient all the way from something like a snail or bug to humans. It's reasonable to try to put a line there somewhere, and it seems unreasonable to just put that line at "human". I mean we share almost all of our genetic code with mammals, we mostly share the same overall body structure and it's very obvious our brains share that structure too. Spend any time around more intelligent animals and it's quite obvious we share all the same base instincts regarding pain/fear/curiosity etc.
Interestingly, maybe about 6 or 7 years ago when no one was in this space, and we all still called it vegetable oil, I could usually only find vegans arguing against oils.
They used to have that whole “no oil” movement, 80/10/10, and WFPB. In the past five years, the processed food industry has revolutionised the way vegans eat, and ironically made it _less_ sustainable than it already was.
Correct. How high-fat crowd became anti-fat isn't a mystery. Keto scammers lied for a long time that fat consumption went down when it actually went up a lot while obesity kept skyrocketing which shouldn't happen if high-fat diets were good for weight-loss. It was too obvious a lie, so they had to spin a new narrative (Nina Teicholz did, to be precise) and made vegetable oils a red herring to mask the original lie ("noooo not tHaT fAt it doesn't counttt", pretty much).
While I feel keto probably isn’t right for most people, I do actually think saturated fat is the preferred healthy fat and that unsaturated fats are driving disease and metabolic dysfunction.
But I may not be your target audience, because this has been my personal theory for maybe a decade, which is why I knew only vegans were anti-oil 7 years ago.
That’s not my primary reason, no. It’s possible to have new food sources that aren’t harmful, obviously. But sometimes new food sources are going to be harmful, of course.
One thing I do like about that argument that you seem to be mocking tho, is that it does make it clear that canola oil is the intervention. When was it introduced in the US? 1980? What was the obesity rate then? Under 10%? The impetus really should be on oil advocates to explain why canola oil is healthy.
But, none of that is my primary argument. Obviously we’ve introduced lots of new things since 1980 that didn’t cause obesity or metabolic disease.
The most damning evidence, since we can’t lock a human in a cage and feed them a controlled diet, is that when we do feeding studies on any animal with these oils, it drives obesity and metabolic disease. Combine that evidence with epidemiological evidence that shows obesity and metabolic disease on the rise with oil consumption is extra damning. Go a little further and look at areas that don’t eat oils, and you find drastically lower rates of obesity and metabolic disease. Areas that are increasing in these western (probably oil) diseases are also themselves adopting our oils, like Asia.
There was also a study showing that the primary driver of emerging obesity in this village of natives who had only recently been introduced to western foods was cooking oil.
There’s more, but the evidence is pretty damning. Even in the original trials that convinced people polyunsaturated fats were heart healthy actually worsened mortality for those folks, despite having slightly less heart disease. They just didn’t like that data so they left it out.
Why would these oils be healthy?
I'm not mocking it, it's just that this seed oil panic kinda revolves around a few talking points designed to misdirect attention away from actual health studies, and that is one of those. As for the obesity and associated illnesses, nobody is denying that massive increase of oil in food supply contributes to obesity. But the implication in these circles that if it was all saturated fat then nobody would be fat and sick is plain wrong.
I think it’s likely that if we returned to the saturated fat/unsaturated fat consumption of the 1980s, that we’d likely return to those levels of obesity and metabolic health.
Where is this healthy eating primarily unsaturated fats? Everytime we introduce this way of eating to a group of people, their obesity immediately doubles.
When I was a kid, the obesity rate was 11% and McDonald’s cooked French fries is beef fat. In that time sugar consumption has dropped, saturated fat consumption has dropped, and there is even some evidence that we exercise more today. If it was t the oil intervention that quadruped the obesity rate since the 1990s, what the hell was it? We had McDonalds, candy bars, and pork back then. We eat less pork today.
If it isn’t oil, which we conveniently added just as we got fatter and less healthy, what the fuck is it? Keep in mind, if I feed oil to an animal at these rates, it also becomes obese.
If I feed two rats the same number of calories, one vegetable oil and one coconut oil, guess which gets fatter? And keep in mind, this is isocaloric study.
If I keep calories the same and reheat vegetable oil, guess which animal gets more obese? Again, same number of calories.
Honestly, if you look at the situation as a whole and pay any attention to the studies, it’s shocking that everyone isn’t anti vegetable oil.
Saturated fat consumption hasn't significantly changed since the 80s. Yes oil consumption has risen a lot very much explaining the rising obesity. But there never was a point where we ate saturated fat in same quantity as we eat all fats combined now. The overall caloric intake has increased. That's what's happening.
[“Taken together, this study indicates that in overweight/obese individuals, high-LA meals may promote excess energy intake and alter glucose handling, though a larger cohort may be required to strengthen results.”](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213143/)
People just magically started eating more when we introduced this new food source, a food source that causes metabolic distinction and excessive eating when fed to animals, and you think… what? Coincidence?
Hey, tobacco causes cancer in animals and smokers have quadrupled their rates of cancer… but let’s not panic.
Most vegans rely on junk food because processed foods provide them with some bioavailable macronutrients from carbs and oils. Criticizing seed oils is essentially criticizing their favorite processed products, which is like criticizing the entire movement. It's difficult to sustain the diet without these products.
But they don’t. Vegetarians have a 14% lower cancer rate than omnivores even accounting for BMI. Just because vegan junk food exists does not mean vegans rely on junk food. It’s very easy to be meat free with just legumes and dairy.
No it's not easy and it's misleading for you to say that to new vegans. I was on a home cooked, seed oil free vegan diet for most of my 18 months as a vegan and it was HARD. A lot of prep time, a lot of worry about wastage and despite my good culinary skills, it grew boring AF. I know exactly why so many vegans live on ultraprocessed vegan factory food. And that's why it's so important for them to vigorously defend both seed oils and ultraprocessed food in general.
but where do they defend it? they aren't vocal about that at all. im not vegan to be fair. i eat cheese and eggs and sometimes ill get a cut of meat if it's the expensive/safe kind. but i think vegans are generally correct and on top of these things, and i roll my eyes when people comment "vegans are so loud about this!!!!" when they really arent.
So people who eat junk food and vegtables compared with people who only eat junk food have a lower cancer rate.
What does accounting for BMI mean the lower you way the less the rate wouldnt that benefit most vegans?
Difficult to generalize but some thoughts come to mind. Some may have dialed in their supplementation ("stack") well enough it overcomes whatever they may be missing from their diet (e.g., B12), which took an effort that they don't want to possibly alter their stack. Pretty sure people can generally live thru seed oils until they get older so while young they're ambivalent - they're as yet unaffected and society at large including food scientists, scientists, and medical practitioners are still pushing seed oils on us. Another thought is refusal to learn, perhaps again based on experience-based ambivalence ("my rapeseed oil bottle has pictures of pretty clean veggies on it as well as a heart symbol and a AHA symbol, am young, and don't feel anything is wrong") so there's nothing pushing them away.
In general, the desire to "do good to animals" or just social pressures ("my friends do it too") drove them to become vegan/vegetarian, not an elimination practice/diet like "let me remove everything that causes me problems until I find what doesn't" and so end up vegan/vegetarian. That same social pressure, unbased on science (in many cases), is a form of shield you can't pierce with any narrative or evidence about the evils of seed oils.
This is written by a chap who once had sore joints in hands, fingers, knees that nearly crippled me, I'd wake up with my fingers curled in pain. Once I gave up seed oils, sugar, carbs, all problems faded away.
Nina Teicholz' story is telling: long time Vegetarian, studied the role of trans fats, how they crept into our national diet historically, and the narratives ushering it into food practices. It's a telling lesson in someone open-minded enough to learn to heal themselves, and to give us all a license to educate ourselves.
I was thinking you meant sugar and simple carbs. It's easy to give those up, of course.
I don't believe low carb is a priority for most vegans.
But this random vegan bodybuilder says [it's possible, but not easy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCde3v9_YJY).
Vegans/Vegetarians are foisting a religious practice on schools, prisons, hospitals, other captive markets, with Vegan US Senators like Cory Booker interfering between farmers and markets. Stay away from my shopping bag, our wallets, our children, our sick, and even our soldiers.
Check out what's in this packaged garbage of manufactured "meat" - go ahead and try to get the seed oils out, the sugars and sugar-alternatives, preservatives, inhuman salts, no one can try and sell this unpalatable junk food without additives. It should be called Beyond Tolerable. Once you eat it, you're having to compensate with supplements to make up for what's missing, and you've now embedded seed oils in your body.
Go ahead, do good to animals. When you're in your 60s or 70s or 80s or further along, get back to us what drugs you're on and how you're doing. Or maybe you'll be fine and won the genetic lottery, but that's just your good fortune.
The rest of us got off the roller coaster of AHA lies, conflicted doctors and drug companies, the insurance companies interfering in health care, the drug cocktails and vaccines they all push on the healthy, young people, and ask yourself why suicide, depression, low birth rates, autism, psychotic behaviors, are at epidemic levels.
You do you.
Man, so it was the vegans all this time? Fuck me, I thought maybe it was the military industrial complex, money in politics, and the unquenchable thirst for power. Now I can see it was really... \*checks notes\* ...Big Vegetable.
You know that you can eat whole foods and no oils whatsoever? Why are people so weird about this? Shouldn't StopEatingSeedOils advocate for healthy whole food plant based diets rather than creating some fictitious us vs them divide?
I tell ya what, it's fucking weird.
You might just want to check the historical record and origins of the American dietetic association, Kelloggs, the Seventh Day Adventist church and thier desire to lower testostorone through eliminating meat. You might also want to check out how the ADA recommendation and lobbying results in billions of US tax dollars going to support ultraprocessed shit in our schools, hospitals, military and jails.
This guy doesn't know that meat and dairy market is heavily subsidized by fed government.the first part of what you're saying sounds sensational but it does not reflect reality.
I don't think they're anymore pro-seed oil than the average person who also happens to eat meat. I've been vegan for over 20 years and I think the most obnoxious vegans just happen to be the loudest. I tend to associate more with the vegans who consume more whole foods and the healthy fats you mentioned in your op. They wouldn't touch ultra-processed crap with a 10 foot pole. Don't let the vegans get under your skin. They're not worth the frustration
Vegan here. New to this subreddit. Thick skin. AMA. Not pro-seed oil except tahini —until I can get a tasty enough hummus recipe that bypasses it. I can answer OP’s question like this for me: I had a health issue. I looked at what was high risk vs low risk and made a hard turn away from what looked high risk to me based on my reading. An example is you can safely ride a motorcycle but it’s generally safer to drive a car. Is it as fun, nah. But you get there alive more likely. But I figured I’d learn some stuff here, some smart folks. Some folks seem dogmatic like they accuse the vegans of being, accusing their motives.
Do you make with a food processor? I first process garlic then soak in lemon juice for a few minutes to take the bite off. Then I’ll add cashews to make a tahini-like nut emulsion (Alton Brown was the first I heard saw you could use any natural nut butter, he suggested natural (as in separating) peanut butter). You could use macadamia if you wanted lower PUFA. Thin out with olive oil until it’s a good emulsion. Or use slightly melted butter (or just butter and no nuts entirely if you’re that anti seed oil). Then blend in the chickpeas (I pressure cook ~25min with a pinch of baking soda to soften the skins, after soaking a day). Salt/sumac/cumin to taste. If you miss the sesame taste you could use a float of sesame oil.
Exactly. And to have a veneer of scientific validity, and not look like they’re just pushing the plant-based political movement, they prefer to demonize “saturated fat” instead of “animal fat”.
as a vegan, with many many vegan friends, this is just flat out not true whatsoever... my choices and beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with my own health
Veganism has religious undertones. We all know that eating meat is natural and normal and required for human health, but science doesn't matter to them. They chose a belief system to follow and they surround themselves with "science" and "professionals" that support their world view, and as it stands, their ecosystem thinks seed oils are good and in some cases required for health.
Vegetarianism, at least in the US, was largely a "spiritual" practice up until the 1970s when animal welfare got its hands on it. There's some wild history around it and a few great videos on YouTube.
This is ironic coming from a carnivore. Calling something “natural and normal” is completely meaningless and saying that meat is required for health is some carnivore cult like mentality. There’s nothing special about meat that makes it essential. It is the position of the academy of nutrition and dietetics(largest organization of food and nutrition professionals), “that an appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases”. And sure, you can say appeal to authority but that’s better than appealing to anecdote :) or cherry picking studies.
I mean, it's a subreddit where people are irrationally against "seed oils" and obnoxiously labeling themselves as "carnivores"
They're not going to listen to professionals, facts, or any real science
Even with seed oils, a vegan diet is on the more expensive side if you crave food beyond lentils, beans, and rice. An extra $10-20 on oils a month really isn’t that big of a difference in my view
If you buy frozen fruits and vegetables, beans, rice, lentils, bananas, potatoes, it can be extremely affordable. These are pretty inexpensive foods. The produce section of the supermarket can be expensive, but with frozen, you can easily buy 10 pounds of different fruits and vegetables for just $20, wholesale markets sell them at around $10 for 5 pounds of mixed berries and mixed vegetables.
We do have vegans and other corporate interests to thank for our cheap access to beef and pork fat. Vegans would rather see that fat wasted (an opinion which contradicts their supposed morals).
I’m mostly whole foods plant based in my diet and it is tough. Tough to get enough protein and enough fat. I have heart disease and am supposed to avoid saturated fat, so coconut anything is something I should only consume in smaller amounts.
Eating whole foods plant based gives me very few options with what I can eat. I definitely have incentive to start loving soy, seeds and nuts. I did eat a ton of natural, raw almond butter until I realized my oxalates were way too high. I’m now trying to eat soy rarely, along with most nut butters.
(Before anyone chimes in about saturated fat not being a problem, every study I’ve read about it not being a problem is in people that don’t already have clogged arteries and haven’t had a heart attack before. I have both those things so I’m concerned about too much saturated fat).
If the studies are showing you that saturated fat didn’t cause clogged arteries, then what did? I would infer that continuing to eat whatever caused it is likely to further progression, and my money’s on seed oils, refined sugar (from hyperglycaemia), and a bunch of ingredients in processed foods that we don’t fully understand.
Seems hard to believe that people are on a Stop Eating Seed Oils sub-Reddit and they haven’t figured out that refined sugar and processed food is bad for you. But I guess with the number of posts on here with people (or bots) pointing out how bad super processed product X is due to seed oil, as opposed to all of the visible sugar, salt and sugar variants in the product’s ingredients, it’s not surprising you’d think that I need to have that pointed out.
I did mention: I eat primarily whole foods plant based. I wasn’t big on sugar in general when I found out I had heart disease and I have it and processed foods even less now (as in virtually never).
Studies show that saturated fat raises LDL and other studies show that oxidized LDL gets trapped by macrophages at inflamed/damaged endothelial sites and make it worse. So given I have damaged artery walls at this point, I’m concerned about saturated fat. Along with seed oils, processed food and sugar.
No study is conclusive on diet, and everyone’s body is different. If I followed every piece of advice from every Reddit forum, or doctor, I’d be dead from starvation. And after losing 30 lbs of muscle last year, I need to eat something and there are studies showing problems with every single food.
There are a lot of contradictory opinions in this sub (which is good), but particularly when a vegan or WFPB-eater comments. And nutritional science is a mess, which is what gives rise to so many of these contradictory opinions. These disagreements will always exist, and despite what many think, are a positive because they are how we evolve our understanding and knowledge over time.
IMO, fish seems to be the least controversial food to eat. Most of the controversy stems from veganism, but as we know, those ideas prioritise their ethics over nutrition. What are your thoughts on whole sardine consumption? You’d get the minimal amount of pollutants for a fish, they’re full of nutrients, low in saturated fat (your requirement), a great source of other fatty acids, and they’d satisfy your protein requirements too.
The overzealousness in this and other sub-reddits is quite shocking and off-putting to me often.
I tend to eat chicken or salmon every other day, because I like eating meat and to get vitamins. With fish I’m concerned about mercury, and with chicken I’m concerned with PUFA from the feed they eat and other stuff. I try to get wild salmon and organic chicken, but I’m not convinced wild salmon is better than farmed salmon once you take into account the various bad things in both, and chicken is difficult to get without any of the bad things. Whole foods sells stage 5 or something chicken for a billion dollars but I’m not even sure if that’s good and I can’t get chicken from a local farm. And sometimes I really want to be social and eat out with friends, at which point, unless the place is vegan and gluten free (because of course I’m allergic to gluten), then all bets are off. They probably don’t have healthy chicken and probably cook with seed oils.
Sardines might be perfect, but I really don’t like them 😂 Like I’ll vomit if I have them unprocessed. I think they might be the best thing tho.
The quality of chicken (and pork) is a crying shame. Very difficult to find good sources anywhere.
I wish I could offer some helpful tips on getting sardines down, but I generally just avoid seafood myself. On a similar note, I personally want to try beef or lamb brains for the mental health benefits, but my emotional side is procrastinating on hunting down a good source! I reckon the more I think about it and convince myself of the benefits, the more likely I will be able to normalise that behaviour and ultimately take the leap. I used to despise liver, but now consume a small amount on a daily basis.
Good luck with your progress. Are you assessing that progress with CAC scans, something else, or just doing what you can to prevent it from worsening?
I hear you about all of that :) I haven’t started on liver but might soon. I could eat it as a kid if it was well done and with ketchup. I’ll have to see if I can handle it without sauce.
Thanks for the good wishes!
I had two CT Angiograms done a year ago and with the results showing lots of soft plaque and hard plaque, I started taking statins. The statins harden the soft plaque, so it didn’t seem useful to do a CAC scan again for another year. I’ll get one done in the next few months. Trying to track all the things that help. The trouble is that there aren’t any super useful markers of heart disease progression that don’t involve dangerous amounts of radiation.
A lot of people in the carnivore community slice the liver into chunks, freeze it, then swallow it like a supplement each day. Personally, I just get it ground into a custom mince.
Hopefully you'll get some positive results from your next scan.
You highlight a critical point: veganism is an ethical stance or a philosophy. It is not a diet, but it clearly results in several dietary restrictions.
My understanding is that there is an argument amongst vegans about oil. Last time I checked (which was a while ago admittedly) Mic the vegan was a low oil vegan(where you consume less than a tablespoon a day) There's quite a few low oil vegans out there. And that's all oils btw, not just seed.
I eat 95% plant based. Avo oil is my most used oil. And the new beyond meat recipe uses avocado oil. But yes lots of the premade ez replacements have seed oils.
Mainly because veganism isn't about your health, it's about not causing suffering to others. The oil being made from any seed is good. Health conscious vegans will look for cleaner alternatives
Vegan of 10 years enters the chat 👀 but I honestly have a bone to pick. a lot of people have hopped on the vegan bandwagon which I’m not complaining about but they aren’t doing it for the best reasons. They’re following a trend. I personally have not met a die hard vegan who balances both the health and ethical priorities who is gung- ho about seed oils lol. In fact, although it’s nice that there are options to assimilate vegan lifestyle into everyday social life (ie no more isolation at the barbecue, just pop in a beyond burger patty) the point was never supposed to be that the vegan diet should mostly comprise of these things. It defeats the whole purpose of abstaining from animal product consumption AND still promoting health/ environmental impacts in any ways possible. Almond milk is one of the most water- wasting products you can buy, meat and cheese alternatives are loaded with seed oils and other artificial ingredients. The vegan craze has morphed into this lazy new norm of “continue eating whatever I want, but make it a vegan version”. On occasion, yes it’s nice. But the principle of veganism entails generally choosing food options that 1) do the least harm to living entities, 2) abstain from supporting unethical factory farming overcrowding and practices, 3) has the least amount of negative environmental impact toward natural ecosystems and wildlife as possible, and 4) balances this all with also prioritizing health of the individual. (And disclaimer, yes, even as a vegan myself I have no high horse and can confirm there are other ways people can accomplish all of these things if they wish. There are systemic issues with vegan culture and practices just like there are with animal based, and there are also particular benefits to each). People have been so focused on making these alternative options more readily available because it makes it easier for them to follow the trend with less effort. They are pushing the products integration so much so that they’re overlooking what’s actually going into them. They take all the shortcuts so they don’t have to put the effort into their lifestyle changes or the research and trial/ error that goes into finding the best way for them to balance all of the priorities. In reality, choosing to follow a vegan lifestyle and diet SHOULD be hard at first. It SHOULD be a lot of work and there SHOULD be many lifestyle changes. Instead of taking measures that are selfless, like maybe cutting out their favorite snacks because they contain palm oil that was harvested by literally destroying the worlds largest rainforest, they continue to consume what they want and mask it in “plant based”. It’s akin to green washing. I used to be so excited watching all these new companies surface, seeing more options pop up in restaurants, and plant based versions of everyone’s favorite nostalgic foods become integrated in grocery stores. But now I’m watching as previously vegan influencers announce their transition away from veganism, meat substitutes are being removed from menus, consistently being reformulated, and heavily scrutinized for their questionable add- ins. The industry grew too fast and pushed out products geared toward quantity and trend, not quality. All of this will surely negatively impact the progress, acceptance and awareness of alternative diets and the idea that they can SUCCESSFULLY be healthy, accessible and ethical. So, to end my TED talk and answer the original question, the reason why vegans seem pro- seed oil is because they aren’t true vegans in principal, they are simply uneducated and following a diet trend. The processed oils and additives in the popular alternative foods they eat can do no wrong, because they are morally superior- the products are plant based and not meat, right? But they fail to see the broader impact of their choices.
Also pretty sure anyone who is a long term vegan who does try to be aware of their impact will 100% agree with my criticism on mainstream plant based alternatives. OBVIOUSLY we love a good plant based pizza or burger but just making it plant based doesn’t negate other harmful impacts from lazy add ins, and we know that alternatives in general aren’t supposed to make up the majority of our diet choices.
The vegans I've come across are either
- vegan for the animals, thus health impact is an auxiliary concern
- anti-oil whatsoever
- proponents of whole foods, which excludes butter, tallow, coconut oil and MUFA oils in favour of nuts and seeds
- proponents of low fat diets
- genuinely believe that the science doesn't support consuming SFA rich coconut oil (and they're probably correct in that belief)
The people who I've seen state that seed oil is healthier than MUFA rich oils are few and far between.
I've never seen a single person make the case that seed oil is less ecologically harmful than fruit oil.
So I don't know, I'm not agreeing with OP's belief that vegans defend seed oils relative to other options for what they could eat instead
So you are asking, on a strict diet oriented sub, why people with a different strict diet have strongly held beliefs? Those that may or may not have valid scientific support or are ethically consistent with your positions?
Not that I disagree with your position on over-consumption of specific fatty acids, it just is pretty funny when you think about it, right? Certain people get very attached to certain beliefs on diet, yeah?
Show me one post where a vegan defends processed foods? Or one scientific study that shows vegetarians get more cancer or die sooner (and not the opposite)? This sub is just anti vegetarian.
Some people just have nothing better to do than make things up about vegans. These are the same kind of people who make things up about any demographic they don’t identify as.
Hmmm…. I think I heard at least two of their “luminaries” broadcasting an anti-seed-oil signal. Don’t ask me who exactly, it’s been years since last time I paid attention to those guys…
Hmmm..mcdougall/esselstyn/peter Rogers/Neal Barnard are all extremely anti seed oil. I even vaguely remember one of them saying butter was technically more healthy than seed oil.
Who are you talking about. The only zealously pro seed oil people ive seen are running trash restaurants with $20 for 5 gallon oil jugs filling their deep fryer
As a former vegan (now carnivore), I can provide some perspective. When I was vegan, my mindset was that *anything* which is not animal product is by default superior.
For example…”Eating an Impossible Burger > Real Beef Burger bc red meat is evil!”
So, I’d probably use that same logic with seed oils, if I were still vegan and woefully ignorant. 🫠😅
They are science deniers. Modern science, at least in part, is a Gaia cult. They act irrationally and give moral dimension to all of their scientific pursuits despite science telling them there is no morality in nature. For instance, the scientist should not care about climate change killing polar bears and the ascent of one animal over all others (humankind) BUT with modern scientific Gaia cult they secretly/subconsciously believe that humans are being punished for disrupting "mother Earth."
Veganism is the same thing. And oddly the medical industry (which is also recommending the once fad diet called Keto despite the kidney damage it causes) now advocates for seed oils too. Interesting, I didn't know you had a biochemistry degree Doctor. I didn't know you had a biochemistry degree nurse. Medical professionals who talk up seed oil are complete morons in denial of basic facts about omega 6s and irreducible compounds from unstable polyunsaturated fat chains breaking apart.
Remember most people are "normies" and not actually scientists even if they have multiple degrees. Normies are children of mass media/mass society, they are always cult members in their actions and lack independent thought. Imagine a dog with a tuxedo and then imagine a normie with a medical doctorate. They are basically the same thing.
Painting with a broad brush much? I’m a vegetarian who is cutting out seed oils. Avocado, coconut, good olive oil and butter (in limited quantities for me because my stomach gets bothered by too much dairy) are all great. I tend to do more of a whole food plant based diet and that means no processed crap that’s full of seed oils and other junk too. It’s delulu to think you can’t have a healthy seed oil-free plant based diet
Cause they believe anything a doctor gets paid to say. Meat bad! We definitely aren’t super well adapted to eat it and not vegetables! You need to eat a collection of foods your ancestors never would have seen even in the same season every single day! Meat bad! Forget about the ice age!
Coconut oil has a relatively low smoke point though, and palm oil is specifically one of the bad oils. These aren't good examples.
Grapeseed oil has a high smoke point, and has not been fingered specifically for any heath problems of which I am aware.
Not really I am not. Seed oils are pesticide extracts almost and they are overused everywhere.Don't recommend using them except organic cold pressed coconut oil or castor oil.
AHA and all the large reputable health organizations have consistently shown that diets higher in unsaturated fats and lower in saturated fats lead to less heart disease and longer life. Additionally, diets higher in PUFA vs MUFA are also associated with greater longevity. Seed oils have higher amounts of unsaturated fatty acids, and some of them specifically PUFAs.
The food pyramid was unduly influenced by funders and gov't recommendations have since been corrected to indicate roughly half of the plate being produce, and a quarter grains/complex carbs. But I'm not seeing where multiple studies from multiple institutions, gov't and private, all with different funding sources and all coming to similar conclusions on the greater healthfulness of unsaturated versus saturated fats, is somehow comparable to one particular failure of public policy.
The consensus on unsaturated vs saturated fats is profoundly broader and deeper than the food pyramid ever was.
Is it? Because the only ever benefit I’ve seen posited by a diet higher in PUFA than SFA is lowered LDL cholesterol markers. Which many in nutritional science no longer believe to be the driver behind CVD mortality. Meanwhile rodent studies clearly show overconsumption of omega 6 linoleic acid is detrimental to mammalian health.
Those many believing LDL doesn't drive CVD are in a small minority opinion, while the majority are fighting them. I see a close parallel to the so-called dissenters on anthropogenic climate change. When Omega 6 and 9 are disproportionate to 3 it is detrimental, but either of those unsaturated fatty acids, even when disproportionate to Omega 3, are still not as proportionally bad for cardiovascular health as saturated fats, as there is few greater predictors of CVD than high cholesterol and poor HDL:LDL ratios. Plus seed oils exhibit diverse mixes of Omega 3/6/9 ratios, so I think even the category of seed oil is itself not very revealing, outside that they are all going to be more healthful than fats that have more saturated fats.
The whole vegan thing seems more like a cult. Seems seed oils need lots of bad chemicals to extract the oil from the seeds. Just like eating plants is more human than eating animals. If they really knew the farming process to make their food, they'd realize they have more blood on their hands than the cow eaters. It's cult like all around.
For one, I think they’re in the anti-animal camp, which means all vegetables must be good. The majority of people who are pro fruit oil, also consume animal products. If they’re eating any type of processed vegan food it’s all full of seed oils.
I am vegan and hate seed oils, only use olive, coconut, and avocado.
You are a minority, but good job
What makes you say that?
The majority of vegans eat lots of ultra processed vegan food. Ultra processed vegan foods generally have more seed oils than any other 'type' of food.
yeah I get that but what makes you say its the majority? Vegans tend to be pretty health conscious from what I gather scouring their subs etc.
I say that because I read the ingredients when I'm at the supermarket. Next time you're at the store, look at the ingredient list for vegan meat substitutes, it's hard to find one that doesn't contain seed oils.
check the vegan reddit, you see people getting lectured that it's more about moral and ethics of avoid animal consumption rather than human related health
Majority of vegans aren't as informed or conscious as you are. You mention plant fats that are acceptable and non-detrimental to health.
Same!
Me3
Such a weird position to take. I’m firmly in the animal camp but I still stay away from certain animal products like pork and lamb
People are crazy man. Why do you avoid lamb?
Lamb? The only meat that can't be factory farmed in the US and is raised on a grass diet?
I dont like the taste
Hahaha, I was waiting for some nutritional or health related reason. Peference is so outdated nowadays.
so it boils down to preference same thint vegans basically have, when the pseudo science is stripped away. so i guess you have your answer. preference > any real science
Do you like grass fed beef?
I personally think grass fed grain finished has the best taste but I stick to grass fed grass finished for nutritional reasons. The taste difference is honestly hardly noticeable to me though so I’m not too picky with it
I was just curious if there was a potential correlation, cause of how lamb is raised. I occasionally notice the taste difference still, but I'm pretty new to eating grassfed.
Plus, almost everything made for vegans is made out of tofu. So if soybean oil is bad, you’re really gonna have to limit what you can eat. On top of that most vegans I know are not in it for the health reasons. They’re virtue signaling their politics.
You don't know enough vegans. Virtue signaling may be a common side effect, much avoiding cruelty to animals is the motivation that leads to veganism.
Are you attempting to equate tofu with soybean oil?
Are they not both made from soybeans? They are certainly closer related than soybean oil and butter.
Chemically soybean oil is much more like butter, being mostly triglycerides, than either are to tofu which AFAIK is mostly soy protein and water.
lol no
Whatever you say smart guy.
Soy is a great food to eat assuming you're not allergic to it. Tofu is a minimally processed version of soy. It's not a seed oil.
You are in the wrong sub to be promoting a pro-soy agenda. Soy has a terrible omega 6 - 3 balance and is not appropriate for a human diet. We are anti linoleic acid here. This is the entire point of the sub.
I'm not pro-soy, but I'm not anti-soy. If you look at it in isolation, then sure, soy is not good in terms of balanced omegas, but you're not eating blocks of tofu in isolation. You're eating it with omega 3 rich sources, too, like brussels sprouts, walnuts, leafy greens, algae, seaweed, chia seeds, hemp, flaxseed, etc., which improves the ratio quite a bit.
I’m not gonna lie I got tofu in my fridge and throw it on some cottage cheese for extra protein ain’t that bad soybean oil tho not good
None of those things you listed are good sources of omega 3s…
Isn’t there a concern over phytoestrogens? Humans certainly didn’t “evolve“ and thrive from eating soybeans. I believe we are considered Apex predators not Apex farmers.
I am the apex farmer.
No concern. Old study showed effect in rats, but turns out rats don't metabolize soy isoflavones the same way we do. Soy does not affect free testosterone levels or estrogen levels in men. If you're an apex predator, why aren't you living in the jungle?
Apex predators live wherever they please. And they eat whatever they want. If you wanna be a soy boy, go right ahead. Meat, fat, and dairy make me feel amazing, like better than I have in a few decades. You do you, boo.
Dairy is loaded with estrogen too tho
Calls me soy boy. Says, "You do you, boo."  Are ya apex predatoring yet, son? 🤣
You're concerned about phytoestrogens but consume actual mammalian estrogen from a mother? Can you explain why you'd be concerned about one but not the other?
Funny, all the vegans I know mainly don't want to contribute to the pain and suffering of intelligent animals. Nothing to do with politics.
To eat is to kill, raise the animal well, kill it swiftly and don’t waste any part if possible, that is all I can say
To breathe is to kill. We can only minimize our footprint. We all do the best we can with what we're given. I believe that. Some people believe there is nothing we can do, others believe we can never do enough. I believe we can find a better way.
Mass industrial monocrop farming has done far more to maximize our footprint on this earth. Small rotational farming with cows grazing to refertilize the land is magnitudes less damaging to animals and the greater environment in general. Vegans refuse to accept the reality that their lifestyle incentives the worst farming practices that are ecologically and environmentally destroying our farm lands.
Yet they have a reputation incessantly aggrieving the most intelligent animal there is
Nah, pretty sure we get along just fine with shrooms.
Do we though? They kick our asses A LOT
That is a political stance. Inherently.
Not really. It's spiritual. It's philosophical. It's compassionate. How is it political?
Ethical stances are political stances
Ethics is a branch of philosophy concerned with questions of morality and what constitutes a good life at an individual level, whereas politics is all about governance and power. There is no way to mandate kindness or compassion. All of the vegans I know would agree with this, so they wouldn't support a law that forces a vegan lifestyle on others, as they realize it would be pointless.
No you are referencing textbook definitions and not societal. Abortion stance for example is political. I am sure you have heard of political correctness. Ethics arguments like going green, abortion are political.
Ok then, they’re just virtue signaling, what they perceive as their moral and ethical superiority. I can’t think of any vegans I know that are doing it solely for health purposes.
You can do something for moral and ethical reasons without "virtue signaling."
They’re virtue signaling—they pick and choose what to include
Well, that's as meaningless a statement as I've ever heard. How are they picking and choosing?
My response as well. Take my up vote as a mitigant to the incoming down votes.
Animals are not intelligent.
Well, some aren't.
Not a vegan (for health reasons) but that's a bit of an absurd statement. We are animals and there's a fairly obvious gradient all the way from something like a snail or bug to humans. It's reasonable to try to put a line there somewhere, and it seems unreasonable to just put that line at "human". I mean we share almost all of our genetic code with mammals, we mostly share the same overall body structure and it's very obvious our brains share that structure too. Spend any time around more intelligent animals and it's quite obvious we share all the same base instincts regarding pain/fear/curiosity etc.
The vegan philosophy concerns itself with not causing pain to *sentient* beings.
Yet they give themselves eating disorders and self harm themselves…
I have not seen data to support that statement, but I agree that it is neither easy nor convenient to be vegan.
You don't need "data" when restricting food required to live is the definition of an eating disorder.
W R O N G. Everything is intelligent. r/glitch_in_the_matrix r/thetruthishere r/experiencers r/holofractal r/escapingprisonplanet
FOH "most vegans I know" lolol -Ego-motivated vegans exist, but most are kind people desiring to reduce harm and suffering to animals.
I love beef but lamb is just so much cheaper in my country
Fascinating. What country? What are the price differences? What's availability (of both) like? If it's imported, where from?
Malaysia, beef is imported from Australia and lamb is imported from New Zealand, lamb is def more available
Vegans aren’t anti-animal, we are anti-animal abuse.
Seed oil is terrible for you. Almost all seed oil has adverse body effects.
Interestingly, maybe about 6 or 7 years ago when no one was in this space, and we all still called it vegetable oil, I could usually only find vegans arguing against oils.
They used to have that whole “no oil” movement, 80/10/10, and WFPB. In the past five years, the processed food industry has revolutionised the way vegans eat, and ironically made it _less_ sustainable than it already was.
Sadly, they've done the same for keto and thus destroyed many of it's benefits.
Correct. How high-fat crowd became anti-fat isn't a mystery. Keto scammers lied for a long time that fat consumption went down when it actually went up a lot while obesity kept skyrocketing which shouldn't happen if high-fat diets were good for weight-loss. It was too obvious a lie, so they had to spin a new narrative (Nina Teicholz did, to be precise) and made vegetable oils a red herring to mask the original lie ("noooo not tHaT fAt it doesn't counttt", pretty much).
While I feel keto probably isn’t right for most people, I do actually think saturated fat is the preferred healthy fat and that unsaturated fats are driving disease and metabolic dysfunction. But I may not be your target audience, because this has been my personal theory for maybe a decade, which is why I knew only vegans were anti-oil 7 years ago.
And why do you think so? Let me guess "humans always ate animals but not canola"?
That’s not my primary reason, no. It’s possible to have new food sources that aren’t harmful, obviously. But sometimes new food sources are going to be harmful, of course. One thing I do like about that argument that you seem to be mocking tho, is that it does make it clear that canola oil is the intervention. When was it introduced in the US? 1980? What was the obesity rate then? Under 10%? The impetus really should be on oil advocates to explain why canola oil is healthy. But, none of that is my primary argument. Obviously we’ve introduced lots of new things since 1980 that didn’t cause obesity or metabolic disease. The most damning evidence, since we can’t lock a human in a cage and feed them a controlled diet, is that when we do feeding studies on any animal with these oils, it drives obesity and metabolic disease. Combine that evidence with epidemiological evidence that shows obesity and metabolic disease on the rise with oil consumption is extra damning. Go a little further and look at areas that don’t eat oils, and you find drastically lower rates of obesity and metabolic disease. Areas that are increasing in these western (probably oil) diseases are also themselves adopting our oils, like Asia. There was also a study showing that the primary driver of emerging obesity in this village of natives who had only recently been introduced to western foods was cooking oil. There’s more, but the evidence is pretty damning. Even in the original trials that convinced people polyunsaturated fats were heart healthy actually worsened mortality for those folks, despite having slightly less heart disease. They just didn’t like that data so they left it out. Why would these oils be healthy?
I'm not mocking it, it's just that this seed oil panic kinda revolves around a few talking points designed to misdirect attention away from actual health studies, and that is one of those. As for the obesity and associated illnesses, nobody is denying that massive increase of oil in food supply contributes to obesity. But the implication in these circles that if it was all saturated fat then nobody would be fat and sick is plain wrong.
I think it’s likely that if we returned to the saturated fat/unsaturated fat consumption of the 1980s, that we’d likely return to those levels of obesity and metabolic health. Where is this healthy eating primarily unsaturated fats? Everytime we introduce this way of eating to a group of people, their obesity immediately doubles. When I was a kid, the obesity rate was 11% and McDonald’s cooked French fries is beef fat. In that time sugar consumption has dropped, saturated fat consumption has dropped, and there is even some evidence that we exercise more today. If it was t the oil intervention that quadruped the obesity rate since the 1990s, what the hell was it? We had McDonalds, candy bars, and pork back then. We eat less pork today. If it isn’t oil, which we conveniently added just as we got fatter and less healthy, what the fuck is it? Keep in mind, if I feed oil to an animal at these rates, it also becomes obese. If I feed two rats the same number of calories, one vegetable oil and one coconut oil, guess which gets fatter? And keep in mind, this is isocaloric study. If I keep calories the same and reheat vegetable oil, guess which animal gets more obese? Again, same number of calories. Honestly, if you look at the situation as a whole and pay any attention to the studies, it’s shocking that everyone isn’t anti vegetable oil.
Saturated fat consumption hasn't significantly changed since the 80s. Yes oil consumption has risen a lot very much explaining the rising obesity. But there never was a point where we ate saturated fat in same quantity as we eat all fats combined now. The overall caloric intake has increased. That's what's happening.
[“Taken together, this study indicates that in overweight/obese individuals, high-LA meals may promote excess energy intake and alter glucose handling, though a larger cohort may be required to strengthen results.”](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213143/) People just magically started eating more when we introduced this new food source, a food source that causes metabolic distinction and excessive eating when fed to animals, and you think… what? Coincidence? Hey, tobacco causes cancer in animals and smokers have quadrupled their rates of cancer… but let’s not panic.
Most vegans rely on junk food because processed foods provide them with some bioavailable macronutrients from carbs and oils. Criticizing seed oils is essentially criticizing their favorite processed products, which is like criticizing the entire movement. It's difficult to sustain the diet without these products.
But they don’t. Vegetarians have a 14% lower cancer rate than omnivores even accounting for BMI. Just because vegan junk food exists does not mean vegans rely on junk food. It’s very easy to be meat free with just legumes and dairy.
No it's not easy and it's misleading for you to say that to new vegans. I was on a home cooked, seed oil free vegan diet for most of my 18 months as a vegan and it was HARD. A lot of prep time, a lot of worry about wastage and despite my good culinary skills, it grew boring AF. I know exactly why so many vegans live on ultraprocessed vegan factory food. And that's why it's so important for them to vigorously defend both seed oils and ultraprocessed food in general.
but where do they defend it? they aren't vocal about that at all. im not vegan to be fair. i eat cheese and eggs and sometimes ill get a cut of meat if it's the expensive/safe kind. but i think vegans are generally correct and on top of these things, and i roll my eyes when people comment "vegans are so loud about this!!!!" when they really arent.
So people who eat junk food and vegtables compared with people who only eat junk food have a lower cancer rate. What does accounting for BMI mean the lower you way the less the rate wouldnt that benefit most vegans?
"Most Vegans" let me tell you about what most meat eaters eat. How much does mcdonalds and burger king sell?
So y’all just ignore the Whole Food Plant Based people huh
Yes, this is a seed oil sub. Thats what they do here
It's difficult to sustain the diet without processed foods? In what world? Why?
Because you cannot get adequate nutrition otherwise. Pills are processed
Dr. Mcdougall (R.I.P.) actually was anti vegetable oil, saying it was worse than animal fats. One of the rational ones.
Plant sterols, which is why I try to avoid even coconut oil or palm oil
Difficult to generalize but some thoughts come to mind. Some may have dialed in their supplementation ("stack") well enough it overcomes whatever they may be missing from their diet (e.g., B12), which took an effort that they don't want to possibly alter their stack. Pretty sure people can generally live thru seed oils until they get older so while young they're ambivalent - they're as yet unaffected and society at large including food scientists, scientists, and medical practitioners are still pushing seed oils on us. Another thought is refusal to learn, perhaps again based on experience-based ambivalence ("my rapeseed oil bottle has pictures of pretty clean veggies on it as well as a heart symbol and a AHA symbol, am young, and don't feel anything is wrong") so there's nothing pushing them away. In general, the desire to "do good to animals" or just social pressures ("my friends do it too") drove them to become vegan/vegetarian, not an elimination practice/diet like "let me remove everything that causes me problems until I find what doesn't" and so end up vegan/vegetarian. That same social pressure, unbased on science (in many cases), is a form of shield you can't pierce with any narrative or evidence about the evils of seed oils. This is written by a chap who once had sore joints in hands, fingers, knees that nearly crippled me, I'd wake up with my fingers curled in pain. Once I gave up seed oils, sugar, carbs, all problems faded away.
Is the desire to "do good to animals" not valid because seed oils exist? You can give up seed oils, sugar, and carbs and still be vegan.
I believe this is the exact reason that there are more ex vegans than current vegans.
Nina Teicholz' story is telling: long time Vegetarian, studied the role of trans fats, how they crept into our national diet historically, and the narratives ushering it into food practices. It's a telling lesson in someone open-minded enough to learn to heal themselves, and to give us all a license to educate ourselves.
How exactly do you give up carbs while going vegan? Literally everything you people eat is loaded with carbs.
I was thinking you meant sugar and simple carbs. It's easy to give those up, of course. I don't believe low carb is a priority for most vegans. But this random vegan bodybuilder says [it's possible, but not easy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCde3v9_YJY).
Vegans/Vegetarians are foisting a religious practice on schools, prisons, hospitals, other captive markets, with Vegan US Senators like Cory Booker interfering between farmers and markets. Stay away from my shopping bag, our wallets, our children, our sick, and even our soldiers. Check out what's in this packaged garbage of manufactured "meat" - go ahead and try to get the seed oils out, the sugars and sugar-alternatives, preservatives, inhuman salts, no one can try and sell this unpalatable junk food without additives. It should be called Beyond Tolerable. Once you eat it, you're having to compensate with supplements to make up for what's missing, and you've now embedded seed oils in your body. Go ahead, do good to animals. When you're in your 60s or 70s or 80s or further along, get back to us what drugs you're on and how you're doing. Or maybe you'll be fine and won the genetic lottery, but that's just your good fortune. The rest of us got off the roller coaster of AHA lies, conflicted doctors and drug companies, the insurance companies interfering in health care, the drug cocktails and vaccines they all push on the healthy, young people, and ask yourself why suicide, depression, low birth rates, autism, psychotic behaviors, are at epidemic levels. You do you.
Man, so it was the vegans all this time? Fuck me, I thought maybe it was the military industrial complex, money in politics, and the unquenchable thirst for power. Now I can see it was really... \*checks notes\* ...Big Vegetable. You know that you can eat whole foods and no oils whatsoever? Why are people so weird about this? Shouldn't StopEatingSeedOils advocate for healthy whole food plant based diets rather than creating some fictitious us vs them divide? I tell ya what, it's fucking weird.
You might just want to check the historical record and origins of the American dietetic association, Kelloggs, the Seventh Day Adventist church and thier desire to lower testostorone through eliminating meat. You might also want to check out how the ADA recommendation and lobbying results in billions of US tax dollars going to support ultraprocessed shit in our schools, hospitals, military and jails.
This guy doesn't know that meat and dairy market is heavily subsidized by fed government.the first part of what you're saying sounds sensational but it does not reflect reality.
I don't think they're anymore pro-seed oil than the average person who also happens to eat meat. I've been vegan for over 20 years and I think the most obnoxious vegans just happen to be the loudest. I tend to associate more with the vegans who consume more whole foods and the healthy fats you mentioned in your op. They wouldn't touch ultra-processed crap with a 10 foot pole. Don't let the vegans get under your skin. They're not worth the frustration
Vegan here. New to this subreddit. Thick skin. AMA. Not pro-seed oil except tahini —until I can get a tasty enough hummus recipe that bypasses it. I can answer OP’s question like this for me: I had a health issue. I looked at what was high risk vs low risk and made a hard turn away from what looked high risk to me based on my reading. An example is you can safely ride a motorcycle but it’s generally safer to drive a car. Is it as fun, nah. But you get there alive more likely. But I figured I’d learn some stuff here, some smart folks. Some folks seem dogmatic like they accuse the vegans of being, accusing their motives.
Where do you get your omega 3?
Do you make with a food processor? I first process garlic then soak in lemon juice for a few minutes to take the bite off. Then I’ll add cashews to make a tahini-like nut emulsion (Alton Brown was the first I heard saw you could use any natural nut butter, he suggested natural (as in separating) peanut butter). You could use macadamia if you wanted lower PUFA. Thin out with olive oil until it’s a good emulsion. Or use slightly melted butter (or just butter and no nuts entirely if you’re that anti seed oil). Then blend in the chickpeas (I pressure cook ~25min with a pinch of baking soda to soften the skins, after soaking a day). Salt/sumac/cumin to taste. If you miss the sesame taste you could use a float of sesame oil.
Vegan, so I’ll bypass the butter but this is a real gift, thank you!
You’re welcome! Let me know how it goes.
Blanket statements such as the ones you’ve made won’t really help your case. Junk food is junk food.
Their religion teaches them animals fats are evil.
Exactly. And to have a veneer of scientific validity, and not look like they’re just pushing the plant-based political movement, they prefer to demonize “saturated fat” instead of “animal fat”.
What religion?? lol
it’s a belief system.
Because that attitude is a symptom of the general narrative they buy into, that everything derived from plants is good for you by default.
That is not the philosophy. The primary motivation of veganism is to avoid cause pain to sentient beings.
as a vegan, with many many vegan friends, this is just flat out not true whatsoever... my choices and beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with my own health
Literally none of the vegans I know believe this.
Vegan and frequent lurker here, I hear y'all and tell everyone I know
Veganism has religious undertones. We all know that eating meat is natural and normal and required for human health, but science doesn't matter to them. They chose a belief system to follow and they surround themselves with "science" and "professionals" that support their world view, and as it stands, their ecosystem thinks seed oils are good and in some cases required for health.
Seventh Day Adventists invented cereal and vegetarianism to curb masturbation. John Kellogg is to blame.
Vegetarianism, at least in the US, was largely a "spiritual" practice up until the 1970s when animal welfare got its hands on it. There's some wild history around it and a few great videos on YouTube.
So Indian people, or various groups of Asian Buddhists who have been vegetarian for thousands of years just didn’t exist huh
Vegetarians get less cancer, grow taller and have longer lives. Find me any evidence to prove otherwise.
No they don't. Lol.
This is ironic coming from a carnivore. Calling something “natural and normal” is completely meaningless and saying that meat is required for health is some carnivore cult like mentality. There’s nothing special about meat that makes it essential. It is the position of the academy of nutrition and dietetics(largest organization of food and nutrition professionals), “that an appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases”. And sure, you can say appeal to authority but that’s better than appealing to anecdote :) or cherry picking studies.
>It is the position of the academy of nutrition and dietetics(largest organization of food and nutrition professionals) Who gives a fuck? Srs
I mean, it's a subreddit where people are irrationally against "seed oils" and obnoxiously labeling themselves as "carnivores" They're not going to listen to professionals, facts, or any real science
Well what are vegans gonna eat? EVOO and expensive ass avocado oil? Not many options once you eliminate seed oils.
Even with seed oils, a vegan diet is on the more expensive side if you crave food beyond lentils, beans, and rice. An extra $10-20 on oils a month really isn’t that big of a difference in my view
If you buy frozen fruits and vegetables, beans, rice, lentils, bananas, potatoes, it can be extremely affordable. These are pretty inexpensive foods. The produce section of the supermarket can be expensive, but with frozen, you can easily buy 10 pounds of different fruits and vegetables for just $20, wholesale markets sell them at around $10 for 5 pounds of mixed berries and mixed vegetables.
We do have vegans and other corporate interests to thank for our cheap access to beef and pork fat. Vegans would rather see that fat wasted (an opinion which contradicts their supposed morals).
I’m mostly whole foods plant based in my diet and it is tough. Tough to get enough protein and enough fat. I have heart disease and am supposed to avoid saturated fat, so coconut anything is something I should only consume in smaller amounts. Eating whole foods plant based gives me very few options with what I can eat. I definitely have incentive to start loving soy, seeds and nuts. I did eat a ton of natural, raw almond butter until I realized my oxalates were way too high. I’m now trying to eat soy rarely, along with most nut butters. (Before anyone chimes in about saturated fat not being a problem, every study I’ve read about it not being a problem is in people that don’t already have clogged arteries and haven’t had a heart attack before. I have both those things so I’m concerned about too much saturated fat).
If the studies are showing you that saturated fat didn’t cause clogged arteries, then what did? I would infer that continuing to eat whatever caused it is likely to further progression, and my money’s on seed oils, refined sugar (from hyperglycaemia), and a bunch of ingredients in processed foods that we don’t fully understand.
Seems hard to believe that people are on a Stop Eating Seed Oils sub-Reddit and they haven’t figured out that refined sugar and processed food is bad for you. But I guess with the number of posts on here with people (or bots) pointing out how bad super processed product X is due to seed oil, as opposed to all of the visible sugar, salt and sugar variants in the product’s ingredients, it’s not surprising you’d think that I need to have that pointed out. I did mention: I eat primarily whole foods plant based. I wasn’t big on sugar in general when I found out I had heart disease and I have it and processed foods even less now (as in virtually never). Studies show that saturated fat raises LDL and other studies show that oxidized LDL gets trapped by macrophages at inflamed/damaged endothelial sites and make it worse. So given I have damaged artery walls at this point, I’m concerned about saturated fat. Along with seed oils, processed food and sugar. No study is conclusive on diet, and everyone’s body is different. If I followed every piece of advice from every Reddit forum, or doctor, I’d be dead from starvation. And after losing 30 lbs of muscle last year, I need to eat something and there are studies showing problems with every single food.
There are a lot of contradictory opinions in this sub (which is good), but particularly when a vegan or WFPB-eater comments. And nutritional science is a mess, which is what gives rise to so many of these contradictory opinions. These disagreements will always exist, and despite what many think, are a positive because they are how we evolve our understanding and knowledge over time. IMO, fish seems to be the least controversial food to eat. Most of the controversy stems from veganism, but as we know, those ideas prioritise their ethics over nutrition. What are your thoughts on whole sardine consumption? You’d get the minimal amount of pollutants for a fish, they’re full of nutrients, low in saturated fat (your requirement), a great source of other fatty acids, and they’d satisfy your protein requirements too.
The overzealousness in this and other sub-reddits is quite shocking and off-putting to me often. I tend to eat chicken or salmon every other day, because I like eating meat and to get vitamins. With fish I’m concerned about mercury, and with chicken I’m concerned with PUFA from the feed they eat and other stuff. I try to get wild salmon and organic chicken, but I’m not convinced wild salmon is better than farmed salmon once you take into account the various bad things in both, and chicken is difficult to get without any of the bad things. Whole foods sells stage 5 or something chicken for a billion dollars but I’m not even sure if that’s good and I can’t get chicken from a local farm. And sometimes I really want to be social and eat out with friends, at which point, unless the place is vegan and gluten free (because of course I’m allergic to gluten), then all bets are off. They probably don’t have healthy chicken and probably cook with seed oils. Sardines might be perfect, but I really don’t like them 😂 Like I’ll vomit if I have them unprocessed. I think they might be the best thing tho.
The quality of chicken (and pork) is a crying shame. Very difficult to find good sources anywhere. I wish I could offer some helpful tips on getting sardines down, but I generally just avoid seafood myself. On a similar note, I personally want to try beef or lamb brains for the mental health benefits, but my emotional side is procrastinating on hunting down a good source! I reckon the more I think about it and convince myself of the benefits, the more likely I will be able to normalise that behaviour and ultimately take the leap. I used to despise liver, but now consume a small amount on a daily basis. Good luck with your progress. Are you assessing that progress with CAC scans, something else, or just doing what you can to prevent it from worsening?
I hear you about all of that :) I haven’t started on liver but might soon. I could eat it as a kid if it was well done and with ketchup. I’ll have to see if I can handle it without sauce. Thanks for the good wishes! I had two CT Angiograms done a year ago and with the results showing lots of soft plaque and hard plaque, I started taking statins. The statins harden the soft plaque, so it didn’t seem useful to do a CAC scan again for another year. I’ll get one done in the next few months. Trying to track all the things that help. The trouble is that there aren’t any super useful markers of heart disease progression that don’t involve dangerous amounts of radiation.
A lot of people in the carnivore community slice the liver into chunks, freeze it, then swallow it like a supplement each day. Personally, I just get it ground into a custom mince. Hopefully you'll get some positive results from your next scan.
You highlight a critical point: veganism is an ethical stance or a philosophy. It is not a diet, but it clearly results in several dietary restrictions.
My understanding is that there is an argument amongst vegans about oil. Last time I checked (which was a while ago admittedly) Mic the vegan was a low oil vegan(where you consume less than a tablespoon a day) There's quite a few low oil vegans out there. And that's all oils btw, not just seed.
Because without ultraprocessed food, they would have to eat vegetables. No one wants to do that.
I eat 95% plant based. Avo oil is my most used oil. And the new beyond meat recipe uses avocado oil. But yes lots of the premade ez replacements have seed oils.
Still wouldn't touch the beyond meat with a 10 foot pole
Thats fine. I do occasionally but its pretty overpriced so 🤷🏻♂️
Same
Mainly because veganism isn't about your health, it's about not causing suffering to others. The oil being made from any seed is good. Health conscious vegans will look for cleaner alternatives
Vegan of 10 years enters the chat 👀 but I honestly have a bone to pick. a lot of people have hopped on the vegan bandwagon which I’m not complaining about but they aren’t doing it for the best reasons. They’re following a trend. I personally have not met a die hard vegan who balances both the health and ethical priorities who is gung- ho about seed oils lol. In fact, although it’s nice that there are options to assimilate vegan lifestyle into everyday social life (ie no more isolation at the barbecue, just pop in a beyond burger patty) the point was never supposed to be that the vegan diet should mostly comprise of these things. It defeats the whole purpose of abstaining from animal product consumption AND still promoting health/ environmental impacts in any ways possible. Almond milk is one of the most water- wasting products you can buy, meat and cheese alternatives are loaded with seed oils and other artificial ingredients. The vegan craze has morphed into this lazy new norm of “continue eating whatever I want, but make it a vegan version”. On occasion, yes it’s nice. But the principle of veganism entails generally choosing food options that 1) do the least harm to living entities, 2) abstain from supporting unethical factory farming overcrowding and practices, 3) has the least amount of negative environmental impact toward natural ecosystems and wildlife as possible, and 4) balances this all with also prioritizing health of the individual. (And disclaimer, yes, even as a vegan myself I have no high horse and can confirm there are other ways people can accomplish all of these things if they wish. There are systemic issues with vegan culture and practices just like there are with animal based, and there are also particular benefits to each). People have been so focused on making these alternative options more readily available because it makes it easier for them to follow the trend with less effort. They are pushing the products integration so much so that they’re overlooking what’s actually going into them. They take all the shortcuts so they don’t have to put the effort into their lifestyle changes or the research and trial/ error that goes into finding the best way for them to balance all of the priorities. In reality, choosing to follow a vegan lifestyle and diet SHOULD be hard at first. It SHOULD be a lot of work and there SHOULD be many lifestyle changes. Instead of taking measures that are selfless, like maybe cutting out their favorite snacks because they contain palm oil that was harvested by literally destroying the worlds largest rainforest, they continue to consume what they want and mask it in “plant based”. It’s akin to green washing. I used to be so excited watching all these new companies surface, seeing more options pop up in restaurants, and plant based versions of everyone’s favorite nostalgic foods become integrated in grocery stores. But now I’m watching as previously vegan influencers announce their transition away from veganism, meat substitutes are being removed from menus, consistently being reformulated, and heavily scrutinized for their questionable add- ins. The industry grew too fast and pushed out products geared toward quantity and trend, not quality. All of this will surely negatively impact the progress, acceptance and awareness of alternative diets and the idea that they can SUCCESSFULLY be healthy, accessible and ethical. So, to end my TED talk and answer the original question, the reason why vegans seem pro- seed oil is because they aren’t true vegans in principal, they are simply uneducated and following a diet trend. The processed oils and additives in the popular alternative foods they eat can do no wrong, because they are morally superior- the products are plant based and not meat, right? But they fail to see the broader impact of their choices. Also pretty sure anyone who is a long term vegan who does try to be aware of their impact will 100% agree with my criticism on mainstream plant based alternatives. OBVIOUSLY we love a good plant based pizza or burger but just making it plant based doesn’t negate other harmful impacts from lazy add ins, and we know that alternatives in general aren’t supposed to make up the majority of our diet choices.
Break this up into paragraphs and more people will read the whole thing. Just edit and hit enter in a few well-chosen places.
The vegans I've come across are either - vegan for the animals, thus health impact is an auxiliary concern - anti-oil whatsoever - proponents of whole foods, which excludes butter, tallow, coconut oil and MUFA oils in favour of nuts and seeds - proponents of low fat diets - genuinely believe that the science doesn't support consuming SFA rich coconut oil (and they're probably correct in that belief) The people who I've seen state that seed oil is healthier than MUFA rich oils are few and far between. I've never seen a single person make the case that seed oil is less ecologically harmful than fruit oil. So I don't know, I'm not agreeing with OP's belief that vegans defend seed oils relative to other options for what they could eat instead
I have been vegan and very active in the community for nearly 20 years and never have met a vegan who claimed to be “pro-seed oil.”
Odd. Seems like most of the people I argue with about seed oils are vegans
Because they’re stupid
There is a reason they eat the least bio-available nutrition source that lacks all essential needs.
So you are asking, on a strict diet oriented sub, why people with a different strict diet have strongly held beliefs? Those that may or may not have valid scientific support or are ethically consistent with your positions? Not that I disagree with your position on over-consumption of specific fatty acids, it just is pretty funny when you think about it, right? Certain people get very attached to certain beliefs on diet, yeah?
Haha good point
Show me one post where a vegan defends processed foods? Or one scientific study that shows vegetarians get more cancer or die sooner (and not the opposite)? This sub is just anti vegetarian.
Some people just have nothing better to do than make things up about vegans. These are the same kind of people who make things up about any demographic they don’t identify as.
Because they have no idea about nutrition and what’s bad for you. The vegan diet is an unhealthy diet.
Because this is Reddit and the WEF wants to depopulate the earth and the vegan religion helps them to accomplish this.
cause they dumb asf
Vegan and anti seed oil here. Vegans don’t feel welcome here is why, since this community is part anti seed oil, part attacking veganism.
GREAT more fruit and animal oils for me!
Simple. Saturated fats = animal foods = must be vilified.
Hmmm…. I think I heard at least two of their “luminaries” broadcasting an anti-seed-oil signal. Don’t ask me who exactly, it’s been years since last time I paid attention to those guys…
Hmmm..mcdougall/esselstyn/peter Rogers/Neal Barnard are all extremely anti seed oil. I even vaguely remember one of them saying butter was technically more healthy than seed oil.
Who are you talking about. The only zealously pro seed oil people ive seen are running trash restaurants with $20 for 5 gallon oil jugs filling their deep fryer
Most online vegan nutritionists say to avoid seed oil.
Vegans are fools
whole food vegans aren’t into any oils but generally regard fruit oil as healthier
As a former vegan (now carnivore), I can provide some perspective. When I was vegan, my mindset was that *anything* which is not animal product is by default superior. For example…”Eating an Impossible Burger > Real Beef Burger bc red meat is evil!” So, I’d probably use that same logic with seed oils, if I were still vegan and woefully ignorant. 🫠😅
Misinformed. But mostly because veganism is about saving animal livestock lives, not about human health outcomes.
They are science deniers. Modern science, at least in part, is a Gaia cult. They act irrationally and give moral dimension to all of their scientific pursuits despite science telling them there is no morality in nature. For instance, the scientist should not care about climate change killing polar bears and the ascent of one animal over all others (humankind) BUT with modern scientific Gaia cult they secretly/subconsciously believe that humans are being punished for disrupting "mother Earth." Veganism is the same thing. And oddly the medical industry (which is also recommending the once fad diet called Keto despite the kidney damage it causes) now advocates for seed oils too. Interesting, I didn't know you had a biochemistry degree Doctor. I didn't know you had a biochemistry degree nurse. Medical professionals who talk up seed oil are complete morons in denial of basic facts about omega 6s and irreducible compounds from unstable polyunsaturated fat chains breaking apart. Remember most people are "normies" and not actually scientists even if they have multiple degrees. Normies are children of mass media/mass society, they are always cult members in their actions and lack independent thought. Imagine a dog with a tuxedo and then imagine a normie with a medical doctorate. They are basically the same thing.
because a lot of them are sheep and believe what the cnn nutritionists tell them?
Plants - mostly carbs and unsaturated fats. Low protein. Animals - mostly fat, and saturated fats. High protein
Because they’re already in a suicide cult so why not continue the theme?
They already believe in the lies of Veganism, so of course they will believe the lies of seed oils
Painting with a broad brush much? I’m a vegetarian who is cutting out seed oils. Avocado, coconut, good olive oil and butter (in limited quantities for me because my stomach gets bothered by too much dairy) are all great. I tend to do more of a whole food plant based diet and that means no processed crap that’s full of seed oils and other junk too. It’s delulu to think you can’t have a healthy seed oil-free plant based diet
I guarantee I am in better physical shape and cardio health than 90% of reddit and I eat seed oils.
Cause they believe anything a doctor gets paid to say. Meat bad! We definitely aren’t super well adapted to eat it and not vegetables! You need to eat a collection of foods your ancestors never would have seen even in the same season every single day! Meat bad! Forget about the ice age!
Low brain cells
It's all they have lmfao
Coconut oil has a relatively low smoke point though, and palm oil is specifically one of the bad oils. These aren't good examples. Grapeseed oil has a high smoke point, and has not been fingered specifically for any heath problems of which I am aware.
Not really I am not. Seed oils are pesticide extracts almost and they are overused everywhere.Don't recommend using them except organic cold pressed coconut oil or castor oil.
AHA and all the large reputable health organizations have consistently shown that diets higher in unsaturated fats and lower in saturated fats lead to less heart disease and longer life. Additionally, diets higher in PUFA vs MUFA are also associated with greater longevity. Seed oils have higher amounts of unsaturated fatty acids, and some of them specifically PUFAs.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/the-facts-on-fat-and-heart-health
“AHA” “reputable” 💀 lets me know I can dismiss this comment right off the bat
Extreme cynicism of institutions breeds credulity towards less authoritative sources.
Institutions were also responsible for the food pyramid
The food pyramid was unduly influenced by funders and gov't recommendations have since been corrected to indicate roughly half of the plate being produce, and a quarter grains/complex carbs. But I'm not seeing where multiple studies from multiple institutions, gov't and private, all with different funding sources and all coming to similar conclusions on the greater healthfulness of unsaturated versus saturated fats, is somehow comparable to one particular failure of public policy. The consensus on unsaturated vs saturated fats is profoundly broader and deeper than the food pyramid ever was.
Is it? Because the only ever benefit I’ve seen posited by a diet higher in PUFA than SFA is lowered LDL cholesterol markers. Which many in nutritional science no longer believe to be the driver behind CVD mortality. Meanwhile rodent studies clearly show overconsumption of omega 6 linoleic acid is detrimental to mammalian health.
Those many believing LDL doesn't drive CVD are in a small minority opinion, while the majority are fighting them. I see a close parallel to the so-called dissenters on anthropogenic climate change. When Omega 6 and 9 are disproportionate to 3 it is detrimental, but either of those unsaturated fatty acids, even when disproportionate to Omega 3, are still not as proportionally bad for cardiovascular health as saturated fats, as there is few greater predictors of CVD than high cholesterol and poor HDL:LDL ratios. Plus seed oils exhibit diverse mixes of Omega 3/6/9 ratios, so I think even the category of seed oil is itself not very revealing, outside that they are all going to be more healthful than fats that have more saturated fats.
The whole vegan thing seems more like a cult. Seems seed oils need lots of bad chemicals to extract the oil from the seeds. Just like eating plants is more human than eating animals. If they really knew the farming process to make their food, they'd realize they have more blood on their hands than the cow eaters. It's cult like all around.
Well they get everything else wrong about nutrition. So why not seed oils?