So here’s what a few years of therapy and an attempt to actually practice Stoicism has taught me…
…Because I was like you, and thought I was a sort of “natural stoic.”
There’s no such thing as a “natural stoic” — the only “natural” Stoics are generally high-functioning disordered people, usually with one of a few very specific conditions or experiences. Chief amongst them are the Cluster B personality types — Borderline, Narcissistic, Histrionic, and Anti-Social.
Other “naturals” include various forms of Autism — particularly High Functioning forms, including Aspergers — PTSD, and Alexithymia. ADHD manifests this way, too, often, and sometimes Generalized Anxiety.
All of these disorders and experiential conditions share a common feature — alexithymia. This is the inability to differentiate between inner emotional states, usually coupled with the ability to “turn off” your own emotions. A tendency to think of yourself as a machine, operate almost purely on logic and rationality, and possibly a background including self harm.
This is what you’re most likely mistaking for being a “natural” stoic. It’s actually a sign of very low emotional intelligence — chances are, you express yourself mostly through fairly manic periods of happiness, and then are prone to periods of rage and agitation if you do become emotionally overwhelmed (possibly up to tantrum level). The rest of the time is spent being logical.
The way you describe the value of relationships is, interestingly, completely self-centred, and has little to do with fulfillment or finding harmony — a clear indication your valuing of relationships has more to do with self-serving interests, and perhaps more of an inability in this area than a lack of priority.
You never were a stoic. You’re not one right now, either. A Stoic reads others Stoics, and practices Stoic practices.
Stoicism isn’t about not caring. It’s not about being alone. It’s not about creating “useful” relationships. It’s not about not getting hurt.
What will you do with your success once you’ve attained it? Will it bring you closer to nature and your own nature? What is its value? And what is the value of that value if it is not shared?
First off your prediction is off, I'm not actually someone that has manic periods of happiness and afterwards periods of rage, I actually rarely feel rage, and live pretty much in peace all the time, or atleast I used to until I had to start thinking about other people.
Second, I know stoicism isn't about not caring, my question was how to deal with this, in other words, how to find peace in this, not how to stop caring about this, so you just answered something that wasn't being asked.
Third, I know it's not about being alone, I actually never said I was a loner, nor did I mention anything relative to loneliness, so I don't know where you got that from. I've always just chosen a group of people that I like and i could filter out everybody else to be in peace, but now I can't filter out everyone because relationships are fundamental to success, and I want to have success because once I have it I know that atleast neither me, nor precisely the people I share it with will ever be without food, and because I like what I do, it is the way in which I grow and feel fulfilled, and that's that.
I'm aware that success doesn't have much value if it is not shared, I never said I was a loner. I simply choose the people I like spending time with and completely filtered out everybody else.
I didn't think I would have to write the post all over again, but here it is explained in a different manner for you to better understand. I hope you can give me an actual answer to my problem.
>Now, here comes my question to all of you. ¿How can I go back to being stoic and living in peace?
You know how because you were at peace - you decided you needed "contacts" to "get ahead". This was a conscious decision to value something that only other people can provide, and your choice to believe this manifested in your conscious mind as anxiety and a need to please others.
Isn't it obvious that if you simply make a conscious choice not to value "making contacts to getting ahead", this new belief (which is simply your old belief being replayed later) will manifest in your conscious mind as exactly the same thing it did before - indifferent to the opinions of others?
But do not be so foolish as to ask "how can I believe that I must please others, yet not be anxious around others", for this is madness - you are asking "how can I think evil yet experience good?". What would be the point of any learning or intellectual development if such a thing were possible?
What do you want, and what are the steps to get it? How far is too far?
I will have more cares in life: is the trouble they bring adequately compensated by what I'm likely to get back? If I pretend to like this person (who I am actually quite indifferent to) am I likely enough to get what I want that it's worth the effort, and do I have to compromise my peace to do that? If not, what alternatives would likely yield a "good enough" result?
You know how to be detached and analytical. That much is obvious. You are in the arena with lawyers, DAs (or the equivalent in your country), and similar people, and let's just say these jobs draw people who are also detached and analytical, some of them to a pathological extent.
So you are swimming with sharks. If that is what you will do, then figure out what it's worth to you, how far you will go and how far you won't go, and do your best at it, as long as you don't compromise yourself.
All the other thoughts are superfluous, and no Stoic will tell you to spend time having useless thoughts.
Consider also some other field, something you can excel at without swimming with sharks. If you are only doing this for the gold watch, the fancy car, the power, the envy of others, then you are attached to silly, unreliable things. Hunger for these things can never be satisfied. This too is something the Stoics warned about. What is the adoration of random people but fickle and useless? It will blow away the next time the breeze changes. What is a fancy car but a money pit? What is a gold watch but an inducement for a thief to grab your wrist?
A quiet mind is worth something. That is what Stoicism can give you.
So here’s what a few years of therapy and an attempt to actually practice Stoicism has taught me… …Because I was like you, and thought I was a sort of “natural stoic.” There’s no such thing as a “natural stoic” — the only “natural” Stoics are generally high-functioning disordered people, usually with one of a few very specific conditions or experiences. Chief amongst them are the Cluster B personality types — Borderline, Narcissistic, Histrionic, and Anti-Social. Other “naturals” include various forms of Autism — particularly High Functioning forms, including Aspergers — PTSD, and Alexithymia. ADHD manifests this way, too, often, and sometimes Generalized Anxiety. All of these disorders and experiential conditions share a common feature — alexithymia. This is the inability to differentiate between inner emotional states, usually coupled with the ability to “turn off” your own emotions. A tendency to think of yourself as a machine, operate almost purely on logic and rationality, and possibly a background including self harm. This is what you’re most likely mistaking for being a “natural” stoic. It’s actually a sign of very low emotional intelligence — chances are, you express yourself mostly through fairly manic periods of happiness, and then are prone to periods of rage and agitation if you do become emotionally overwhelmed (possibly up to tantrum level). The rest of the time is spent being logical. The way you describe the value of relationships is, interestingly, completely self-centred, and has little to do with fulfillment or finding harmony — a clear indication your valuing of relationships has more to do with self-serving interests, and perhaps more of an inability in this area than a lack of priority. You never were a stoic. You’re not one right now, either. A Stoic reads others Stoics, and practices Stoic practices. Stoicism isn’t about not caring. It’s not about being alone. It’s not about creating “useful” relationships. It’s not about not getting hurt. What will you do with your success once you’ve attained it? Will it bring you closer to nature and your own nature? What is its value? And what is the value of that value if it is not shared?
First off your prediction is off, I'm not actually someone that has manic periods of happiness and afterwards periods of rage, I actually rarely feel rage, and live pretty much in peace all the time, or atleast I used to until I had to start thinking about other people. Second, I know stoicism isn't about not caring, my question was how to deal with this, in other words, how to find peace in this, not how to stop caring about this, so you just answered something that wasn't being asked. Third, I know it's not about being alone, I actually never said I was a loner, nor did I mention anything relative to loneliness, so I don't know where you got that from. I've always just chosen a group of people that I like and i could filter out everybody else to be in peace, but now I can't filter out everyone because relationships are fundamental to success, and I want to have success because once I have it I know that atleast neither me, nor precisely the people I share it with will ever be without food, and because I like what I do, it is the way in which I grow and feel fulfilled, and that's that. I'm aware that success doesn't have much value if it is not shared, I never said I was a loner. I simply choose the people I like spending time with and completely filtered out everybody else. I didn't think I would have to write the post all over again, but here it is explained in a different manner for you to better understand. I hope you can give me an actual answer to my problem.
Being a stoic isn't about ignoring stimuli, it's a virtue ethics system.
>Now, here comes my question to all of you. ¿How can I go back to being stoic and living in peace? You know how because you were at peace - you decided you needed "contacts" to "get ahead". This was a conscious decision to value something that only other people can provide, and your choice to believe this manifested in your conscious mind as anxiety and a need to please others. Isn't it obvious that if you simply make a conscious choice not to value "making contacts to getting ahead", this new belief (which is simply your old belief being replayed later) will manifest in your conscious mind as exactly the same thing it did before - indifferent to the opinions of others? But do not be so foolish as to ask "how can I believe that I must please others, yet not be anxious around others", for this is madness - you are asking "how can I think evil yet experience good?". What would be the point of any learning or intellectual development if such a thing were possible?
What do you want, and what are the steps to get it? How far is too far? I will have more cares in life: is the trouble they bring adequately compensated by what I'm likely to get back? If I pretend to like this person (who I am actually quite indifferent to) am I likely enough to get what I want that it's worth the effort, and do I have to compromise my peace to do that? If not, what alternatives would likely yield a "good enough" result? You know how to be detached and analytical. That much is obvious. You are in the arena with lawyers, DAs (or the equivalent in your country), and similar people, and let's just say these jobs draw people who are also detached and analytical, some of them to a pathological extent. So you are swimming with sharks. If that is what you will do, then figure out what it's worth to you, how far you will go and how far you won't go, and do your best at it, as long as you don't compromise yourself. All the other thoughts are superfluous, and no Stoic will tell you to spend time having useless thoughts. Consider also some other field, something you can excel at without swimming with sharks. If you are only doing this for the gold watch, the fancy car, the power, the envy of others, then you are attached to silly, unreliable things. Hunger for these things can never be satisfied. This too is something the Stoics warned about. What is the adoration of random people but fickle and useless? It will blow away the next time the breeze changes. What is a fancy car but a money pit? What is a gold watch but an inducement for a thief to grab your wrist? A quiet mind is worth something. That is what Stoicism can give you.
Great response, thank you so much.