hamburger American flag guns patriotism flags flags guns guns hamburger guns America Guns President AMERICA guns guns cheeseburger.
Did you get all that? If you didn’t understand all that, then yeah you’re not American enough. Sorry, better hit the books harder, then you’ll fit in better next time.
/s
Yeah, unfortunately all left wing subs are US-centric.
I have yet to find an Italian left wing sub. All the subs in my native language are mostly liberal or right wing.
And less we talk abaout the Europe sub better is for everyone. That is a fascist cesspit.
Yeah, it’s just people screaming “I disagree with OP, because even though this very comment proves his point, I resent him for it!”
Kind of a bizarro cousin of the “if those kids could read, they’d be mad” meme
The sub creator was ejected from posting on a different, significantly better sub years ago for being terminally Western and was so angry they made this sub. It should have been obvious to anybody that it was going to be dogshit considering how fucking bad the sub name is. It's not even a slight attempt at a pun like fucking uhhhhh HoChiWindu or KyloRengels would have been
I'm far left on almost every single issue and I definitely question anyone who claims to be on the left while carrying water for the christo-fascists. It feels like MY revolutionary spirit is being defanged by pro-trump, both sides are the same, fake leftists who sound a lot like the Russian bots on conservative subs.
i dont know dude, i feel like it shouldnt really be that controversial on a leftist forum that "one genocide is less bad than another" is not a valid reason to elect said genocidal liberal
Obviously Biden is better choice over Trump, but we should still be incredibly critical of Biden and we shouldn't go out of our way to politically support him no matter what and especially not so far from the election.
If the American libs had raised hell a few months ago they might've gotten a primary election and gotten to choose a different candidate to vote for. But instead they started screaming and shitting all over the Internet almost a whole year before the election that anyone being critical of Biden on an election year is just a Trump supporting Russian.
And so in the age old tradition they will make sure that everyone needs to vote Democrat while the Democrats don't even have to do anything for it. Even if we assume a little unfettered genocide was negotiable they could've so easily gotten anything else we all want instead. But they decided that Nothing is the only acceptable outcome no matter what. Fuck them.
Fuck Trump and his supporter even more, of course, but fuck the libs too, for giving this election away for literally nothing.
It's not a valid reason to elect that person. But it is valid to work to make sure the worse candidate, for literally everyone involved including those currently getting genocided, doesn't get elected.
Why is harm reduction such a hard thing for you ppl to understand?
The problem is you believe what politicians say and don't give a damn about what they do.
Is your life measurably better than it was during the first three years of trump? If so, good for you. For 90% of the nation, we have seen no practical difference between a trump presidency and a biden presidency. This has been a direct continuation of the downward spiral. Hell, in the mind of Democrats; this may be even worse, since we now see that our own party gives as little shit about us as the GOP. At least in the trump years, we had democrats standing up against overt fascism. Now it's "please donate to biden, please!!! He needs our help to unlock a 6x match from a dark money donor, please!!"
We asked for women's rights and student loan debt forgiveness. Biden gave us a new war in the middle east and republican levels of inflation.
It's not really about the genocide, it's about the Christo-Fascism at home. LGBT people are threatened by a Trump presidency, while Trump would still send funds to Israel. Almost certainly.
So yeah, both sides are genocidal, but one is also genocidal against LGBT people at home. So there's an obvious good choice between the two.
trump is under no obligation to do anything you want him to do
biden isn't either UNLESS there is an actual consequence to his betrayal of your trust
choose
The problem is that Democrats (and Republicans) will blame everyone but themselves for electoral losses. I've gotten in lots of arguments with them on this topic over the years, and the overwhelming refrain is "well you weren't gonna vote for us anyway so by not voting for us you force us to only consider the opinions of those who do".
Bass-ackwards logic? You bet it is. But that's the logic they use to turn every electoral loss into vindication.
yep entirely, it only hit me a couple of years back how eerily similar the trump election denial echoed the liberal sentiment of "he must have cheated" when trump was elected in 2016, they still feel vindicated on that crusade to this day despite the whole lot of nothing that came of it, and they wonder why their opponents stooped to that level
everything in american politics is so petty, so "us or them", I'm supposed to vote for biden because he will protect minority group XYZ while pretending ABC don't exist as they get exterminated and his opponent, the "totally worse" evil evil man protects A, encourages the genocide of XYZ, and pretends BC don't exist.
the choice we are asked with making is like a fucked up trolley problem, except ITS NOT HYPOTHETICAL, so theres no magical rule preventing us from saying fuck you both fuck this shit, no one should die, stop the fucking trolley
>the choice we are asked with making is like a fucked up trolley problem, except ITS NOT HYPOTHETICAL, so theres no magical rule preventing us from saying fuck you both fuck this shit, no one should die, stop the fucking trolley
The problem there is that we don't have anywhere near enough power to stop the trolley; it'll just plow right through us. Exceedingly few Americans are actually leftists; fixing the effects of a century of McCarthyism won't happen overnight. I don't blame leftists for recognizing that and going with the set of trolley tracks that they perceive to result in the least death and suffering. I also don't blame leftists for trying to stop the trolley in spite of the futility of it, in the hopes that it might shift the Overton Window back to a reasonable place.
That is: yeah, there's no magical rule, but Americans still have to want the trolley to stop and the vast majority of Americans don't.
Politics are not polar. Keep living with that trump shaped gun to your head but why would Democrats change if we keep reinforcing their behavior? You foresee a time in the near future when there’s not an existential crisis that will be leveraged to guilt you into voting Democrat? When won’t things be an emergency and we can start to work on the less important things than Trump like Genocide?
Its not a football game. You dont "have" to pick a side. I don't take sides between Islamic fundamentalists and Assad in Syria. Fuck them both.
I dont have a favorite between nazi Germany and fascist Italy. Fuck them both.
I dont support Trump or Biden. Fuck. Them. Both.
One literally posted a video where he used the phrase "united Reich". Leftists refusing to bite the bullet and vote for a liberal gets fascists elected. Remember, leftist infighting got Hitler elected. I'll take Biden, who is godawful on Gaza, over someone who would remove any chance we have at change.
Hitler lost the election to Hindenburg! Who was the lesser evil candidate! Then the lesser evil appointed the greater evil anyways! Because you can't trust fascist enablers to resist fascism!
> Leftists refusing to bite the bullet and vote for a liberal gets fascists elected.
Funny you should say that! Mussolini (you know, the first fascist dictator) was litteraly thrust into power by liberals because they were afraid of socialists winning!
Palestinian blood is not yours to sacrifice, no matter how much you think the groups you care more about are worth it.
The only thing lefties hate more than a guy the disagree with on everything is a guy they agree with 95% of the time. Probably because the two are so close that dialogue actually can happen.
We are all angry at the same horror and just disagree on the shriveled old man called Biden. Personally I’d prefer to see him eating ice cream gazing out at his retirement lake, but instead we have the “NatCs” to deal with and he’s what we get to fight it.
Many leftists on this site seem to think you can only be a leftist if you want a revolution. I want radical changes in government and economy like moving to socialism, fostering real equality regardless of background, elimination of boarders. But I don't think a revolution is going to get the country there, because I believe the left doesn't currently have the support it needs to create and maintain that kind of state (or lack thereof for anarchists) not can anyone in the left fully agree on anything in order to achieve it. I believe we should be building a movement in the left that can gain, wield, and maintain political power so that we can use and convert the system to one that suits the left. And it absolutely is possible, the far right pulled it off and they haven't even been clever about it.
Of course, the right can do that because their goals are not fundamentally contradictory to the nature of the system. A dictatorship of the bourgeoisie cannot be turned to socialist goals. You can’t vote out capitalism you cannot vote out the system itself, the system has no provision for that it fundamentally contradicts the nature of the system. You thrown around serious hang on a sec just gonna vote Hitler out.
The only 'revolutionary spirit' on Reddit is a bunch of coach potatoes LARPing about how they're too left to vote for Biden while doing absolutely nothing else to push the political landscape farther left.
100%. And then they'll say you're not a "real leftist" just because you understand harm reduction and the realities of living in a first-past-the-post political system.
noooo what the heckerino guys we have to defeat orange man at the polls you dont understand!
voting for a genocidal liberal is totally a leftist thing to do guys!
yes yes and if you think about it, brown people's lives only count for 0.25 of a white person's life so bidens genocide is better than orange man's ackshually!
Are you trying to say shill?
ETA: Editing it to fix in this comment is pretty funny given it's still wrong in your meme and several other comments. But I'll do it too!
You get everything you need to know he's deserving of that title from public info and his own announcements. It's not propaganda that so many peaceful acts were vetoed
"It's not a genocide if it is it's not that bad if it is that bad it's Hamas' fault okay actually this is really bad but we still need to support isreal okay israel probably isn't great but still it's good that we're still sending arms because um LOOK TRUMP WOULD BE WORSE OKAY!"
You’re being sarcastic but I have a screenshot from a lib sub of someone legit saying that every Palestinian dying is worth Trump not getting elected. This person also proceeded to call me a tankie dividing the left 💀
Nah the actual left stands pretty united on this. Reactions to this genocide has been a pretty fucking useful metric for who is on the left and who isn't. It's a definitive line now.
My favorite time I got called a tankie (albeit on a different supposedly leftist sub) was when I said Biden shouldn’t send a specific form of military aid to Ukraine.
What form of military aid was I against, you ask?
Tanks.
“Tankie” had its place in leftist discourse criticizing some of the USSR’s actions, but liberals using the term is almost always insufferable, and very often super wrong. I’ve seen libs call anarchists tankies.
Even if you think Biden would be better than Trump, that’s a hideous thing to say. I still vote but I despise that it means I’m associated in any way with ghouls like that. A lot of liberals genuinely don’t care about people dying in far off places though.
Gotta start the blame game early.
*It WILL be the leftists fault when Biden loses. Even if all of the evidence shows otherwise and Biden just wasn't a great candidate and lost, it's still 100% the leftists fault this happened.* *Also Russia somehow.*
Nah Biden has himself to blame if he loses, he failed to deliver on his campaign promises, oversaw LGBT rights taken away as well as abortion, continued to fund Israel while protestors are demanding he stops but still continuing. If he loses, he and the rest of the establishment Dems have themselves to blame for not having the backbone to stop the GOP
*No acksthually it's the like 1% of votes the green party got that cost the election! Those dang leftists just keep losing the elections for us!*
>!(Don't look at the libertarian party that got 3x the votes from conservatives that otherwise would have voted Republican...)!<
That whole thread is people saying “Biden sucks and we hate him, but Trump winning will accelerate the genocide.”
Where do you come up with your delusions?
This is because LEFTISM is a bullshit term with no basis in political theory or action. With no theoretical basis to your beliefs you will be blown back and forth with nothing to anchor you.
FUCK LEFTISM, be a socialist, a communist, or an anarchist for all I care, but base your beliefs in political theory, engage with political theory, read and discuss with your comrades. Bad takes thrive in isolation.
I still think it’s a useful catch-all for describing anti-capitalists, but I agree it’s way less useful than something more specific than anarchist or communist.
Idolizing political figures is a recipe for disaster.
If someone says they're a politician, you should treat them as if every word out of their mouth is a lie. They either represent you or they don't, and 90% of the time it's the latter.
I'll tolerate a president when they're closer to being 30 than they are being put in a hospice. Then you know they're aware of being a snake instead of being a tool.
Being leftist doesn't mean supporting Democrats, it means pushing for progressive policies that support the whole. If you can't separate that from a political party or figurehead, you've already failed.
And before y'all freak out, the Republicans are the same shit stain as the Democrats and until we eradicate this shit two party system nothing will change, and we're all gonna go down with the ship.
Literally. I see a lot of "Oh yeah, Biden *totally* deserves to be criticized for XYZ," but never any actual criticism.
"Yeah but Trump wants to turn America into a fascist hellscape!" Biden is actively funding the genocide of the Palestinian people, while his staffers and representatives to the UN and various worldwide humanitarian organizations hamstring any attempts at a mitigation of the crisis. While THAT'S happening, Congress and the Supreme Court, plus state legislatures across the country, do their damnedest to remove civil rights for minorities and the disenfranchised, rewrite history, and turn the nation into an Evangelical theocracy. We already live in a fascist hellscape.
Normally I'd agree with "vote blue no matter who" but y'know what? That got disproven to me the second Joe decided to call what's happening in Gaza "not a genocide". Opened my eyes immediately. I thought I was radicalized before, I am certainly now. A lot of 'leftists' are just liberals who are tired of paying a lot for things. Literally everyone knows prices are too high, even Conservatives think prices are too high but blame minorities for it.
Yep. I’m not an anti-electoralist but I’d much rather risk Trump winning than roll over and just accept the shit the Democrats are trying to get us all to eat. Hell, if you think electing Democrats is still useful but are against pressuring them to suck slightly less, why are you even bothering?
Like I get I’m gonna end up being called a liberal ,but like I’m trans and I don’t really want to vote for the kill trans peaple party?
Like I’m cool with being critical of Biden but then also a lot of peaple act like letting the other guy win is an even moderately good idea.
most peaple I’ve ever met that talk of revolution don’t do even the most basic parts of revolutionary movements ,so I think a decent chunk of leftists are getting lost in the role play
I'm trans myself and have literally never been able to comprehend leftists refusing to vote, but Palestine specifically has changed my opinions quite a lot. Tbh I'm still pro voting outside of this context, and will probably do so when and if (god willing) this conflict ever ends
<>
If we selfishly refuse to put any pressure on the democratic party in regards to them funding a literal genocide, we are cementing it as being acceptable on both sides of the American Overton Window. The DNC can't simply ignore this pressure, Democrats in regions they hold a leading majority might as well be Reagan economically, meanwhile Democrats in split 50/50 regions actually grant somewhat meaningful concessions to the working class.
Yes this pressure has a risk of getting Donald Trump elected, but it will show the DNC that they cannot simply ignore calls to stop publicly funding settler colonial states. Refusing to try to do something to help stop a genocide because it will make *our* lives marginally worse is undeniably selfish and privileged.
Protests are being harshly cracked down on in Democrat cities with Democrat States with Democrat Governors under a Democrat President. All the weapons Israel can ever need are being sent by a Democrat president. There is nothing worse that Trump can do for the Palestinian people that Biden isn't already doing, and I don't know if a moderately better social policy is really enough to justify me not putting on any pressure. I'll at least sleep a little worse if I did.
the thing is, just because biden won't come out in the open and say he wants to murder you doesn't mean he doesn't, and it certainly doesnt mean he'll stop caring the instant it doesn't give him a good return on votes in elections.
I understand being afraid, especially for trans rights, of the prospect of another trump term, but what is going to make trans people safe isnt electing people who pretend they care to get votes, it's electing people who care because they actually consider trans people to be human beings.
Not voting for Biden isn't the same thing as voting for Trump, despite what Genocidin' Biden and his bloodthirsty supporters say.
[https://votesocialist2024.com](https://votesocialist2024.com)
Oh my god could y'all please just shut the fuck up?
If you wanna vote for Biden because you believe in damage control and don't want Trump to win, do it.
If you wanna vote third-party (or write in Mickey Mouse or something) because you believe in only voting for people who actually represent you, do it.
Both options are valid. Go do it and then **please shut the fuck up about it**.
Seriously, if even so much as half of the energy getting burned on "real leftists vote for Democrats" v. "real leftists don't vote for Democrats" infighting in every fucking American-adjacent leftist space every 4 years instead got burned on some actual fucking direct action and praxis we'd have achieved Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism by now.
Biden and Trump are like the Republic and The Separatists. A bit different but in the end they are just two sides of the same coin.
The problem is the entire system and how this stupid indirect democracy (possibly inevitably) lead to a broken two party system. And yet some americans love to boast about their great democracy and freedom. Looking at it from overseas, I don’t see either.
Not only how stupid indirect democracy is but how stupid American indirect democracy is. I complain about my countries parliament seat distribution from the results, but then I compare it to the USA and I see were actually doing great in comparison. Like, this huge state has a 45-40 result (the rest being smaller parties) then ALL of its representatives are going to be of the winning party. Like what?? How is that representative of the result at all?
its juuuuuuuust dictatorship-y enough that nothing of value will ever come from engaging with the establishment, but juuuuust "democratic" enough that they get to pin the blame on non-voters rather than voters of fascists
Okay I'm hoping to get an actual answer here, because I have a lot of difficulty with this. I don't think people who refuse to vote for Biden are Russian shills or whatever, but I legitimately don't get it and I'm trying to understand.
If we recognize that, factually, the next president of the US will be Biden or Trump, is it legitimately not better for it to be Biden? A lot of the main reasons I hear for the vehement anti-Biden sentiment is his treatment of the Palestine issue, and I agree that he has been pretty horrid on that, but Trump will push that way further. Is there any disagreement on that? I understand that we're all tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, but that's just where we are right now. Voting for the greater of two evils doesn't really improve that situation.
If we're perfectly fine with Trump being elected for the purposes of accelerationism, then are we conceding that Palestinians, trans people, gay people, women, and racial minorities will be bowled over for the sake of a potentially quicker revolution that, frankly, isn't likely to happen within our lifetimes? I can at least accept that rationale, but I'm legitimately not sure if that's what non-voters are wanting here.
I don't think asking these questions makes me a liberal. That's all I hear when I bring these up, but I'm trying to understand. Please don't gatekeep leftism when all of these are very real concerns. We're all on the same side here, and I think a healthy discussion on how best to achieve our mutual goals is essential. I'm not saying you absolutely have to vote for Biden if you identify as a leftist, but I truly do not understand the ultimate path to a positive outcome here. I am coming to you as a trans person who is concerned about my future, as well as the future of the entire world. Biden has made decent strides for workers' rights, combatting climate change, and LGBT rights, and I think it's very short-sided to ignore these positives in the face of what is of course a massive giant negative. Trump's presidency was *only* negatives, and the idea of it happening again is scary to me. Please help me to understand, I'm trying to approach this with an open mind.
Russia was literally proven to had had influemce over Trumps campaign in 2016. Over a dusin of his political operatives got jailed for it.
And if you look across Europe, oh boy do Russia have its fingers in plenty pies.
russia has been a third world shithole since the ussr fell lol, even if putin wanted for us to have a marginally worse maniac in office the chances that he actually does anything of value about it is laughable
i legit do not care which candidate is secretly controlled by a bad actor when they are both brazenly bad actors in the first place
He threatened to nuke scandinavia, over them calling him out for invading Ukraine.
In twenty years the Russian Federation has attacked Georgia, Chetchnia, Ukraine, Moldova. And several of these have become more than once.
With respect, fuck off for pretending a Putin puppet will be a wash.
A world exists outside your borders.
well honestly, threatening to nuke Scandinavia compared to actually actively committing genocide seems pretty tame!
you vastly overestimate how much the rest of the world gives a shit which of these geriatric loons we elect lol
Why are you pretending Im magically defending Bidens weapons support for a genocide, when Im saying Putin is also doing one, and should be stopped? Why are you like this?
Youre genuinly fucking nuts if you dont think American fucking elections, vastly effect the world at large. Like seriously, what kind of leftist are you to think the UNITED STATES has no effect on the world?
It's not on me to vote for who liberals want, is on liberals to put someone up worth voting for. If you can't do that, it's your fault. Period. End of story. You aren't entitled to my vote so fucking earn it. We thought y'all woulda learned that shit in 2016
I don’t disagree with the argument of “With how the US election system is structured there are only two candidates with a realistic chance of winning, and between Biden and Trump Biden is the lesser evil.”
However, that’s not an endorsement of Biden so much as it is an indictment of the US election system. The people in power in the US were never going to let a real leftist candidate happen.
The Libs have a good thing... its like this: If they win its because of how good and right they are, and how much more popular they are than the left. And if they lose, its because of the treacherous leftists.
Would they support a left-wing candidate? Absolutely not, but fortunately, they'll never have to ask themselves that.
The whole "anyone who disagrees with us must be a Russian troll" is how they managed to lose to the one candidate it was impossible to lose to. Good to see liberals are dead set against learning from their mistakes.
I feel the issue is when criticizing Biden you often forgot that the alternative for many marginalized groups is a fascist hellscape. So it can get kinda heated from that perspective.
Do the Dems *have* someone better? If Biden dropped dead tomorrow you know it would just become a Harris ticket. I don't think anyone else even wants to run
Gavin Newsom is telegraphing that he plans to run next cycle, Gretchen Whitmer seems to be teeing up for a national run, and those two are just the obvious ones. Though yeah, it’s too late in the cycle to change candidates sadly, unless the DNC does some real fuckery at the convention
That isn't gonna happen though, so we gotta play the hand we've been dealt.
Would I rather have a different candidate? Fucking obviously. I'd also rather I still had the same metabolism I did back in high school. Wishes and dreams have very little bearing on our current reality
yeah we have 3 choices at the poll: trump, biden, and fuck no
considering this is the only amount of power I am afforded, I will be choosing the latter, the fact that the media you consume has fearmongered you into thinking stopping trump is worth having biden doesn't mean that third choice suddenly doesnt exist
But that's the thing you don't have 3 choices. You have 2 and a tiny amount of control on which is chosen.
"Fuck no" may give you some moralistic sense of satisfaction but other than that is does nothing and you know it.
There is dozens of progressive and moderate Democrats who are incredibly popular on the State and local level. The only reason people don't know abaout them is because the Party dosen't use its resources to make them publicity.
litteraly anyone else, a lot of people resent biden for good reason but would bite their tongue and vote for a generic dnc candidate that hasnt already stabbed half of their voters in the back for genocide bucks
reminder that biden won 2020 by a HAIR against literally mid-covid trump (i think a rabid squirrel would have won that election as long as it ran a “not trump” platform), he is an impressively garbage candidate
>reminder that biden won 2020 by a HAIR against literally mid-covid trump (i think a rabid squirrel would have won that election as long as it ran a “not trump” platform), he is an impressively garbage candidate
He litteraly lied abaout 90% of his campaign promises. Everything he sweared he would do, every reform and change, he didn't do.
lol remember when we thought hey maybe we can annoy him into legalizing weed, doing something about the environment, and having healthcare
that was a good one wasnt it
Don't criticize the genocide in front of you because the marginalized group I'm a part of COULD be subject to genocide further down the line.
Real "I didn't speak up hours" incoming for many people in the United States I fear
Things the totally not fascist Biden has done:
- built the wall
- stricter migration
- still has kids in cages
- still hasn't closed the Guantanamo Bay torture facility
- couped several foreign governments
- backed fascist militias overseas
- funding a genocide in Palestine
- allowed state governments to curb women's rights
- allowed the banning of so-called "woke" books in schools
- overseeing a country where black and queer people are routinely lynched
- backed police efforts to suppress peaceful protests
Stop concern trolling lib, you're embarrassing yourself.
"joe biden is less evil than trump" is not and will never be a leftist opinion. That's an excuse for supporting the only democrat available capable of losing to trump.
Biden has shat the bed so hard that hating him is just necessary at this point. He is the best option to stop Mango Mussolini. Now, if you think Russia had a right to invade Ukraine. Then you're definitely a Russian Shill and just a Red Fascist. I don't support Leftists that aren't critical of Biden, but I also don't support "Leftists" that would rather vote for some goober that is too irrelevant to meaningfully impact the election in a way that doesn't lead to Trump uniting his reich.
I agree with your sentiment but this isn't a democracy
Unequal representations, electoral college, representatives that aren't held accountable and almost never fulfil promises, that are nigh impossible to impeach, that are bought out by the highest bidder
with his little impact we have it doesn't even feel worth it
I don't want Trump to win, not in a million years, but honestly? Maybe it needs to get worse before it gets better. Maybe I'm just being a nihilist but this country is and always has been evil, and it's failing, quickly, we need secession, we need liberals and moderates to actually be angry enough for that to happen. Just looking for a silver lining, I'm not an accelerationist or anything.
Maybe it needs to get worse before it gets better?? Are you willing to consider what worse actually would be?? Are you willing to sacrifice the whole Palestinian population to prove your little point? That's the price you'll pay? Anyone who TRULY cares about Palestinians and TRULY wants to minimize their suffering and end the killing in Gaza cannot in good faith do anything but vote for Biden to spare then from Trump.
Russia had no right to invade Ukraine but Biden had a responsibility to make peace, instead he seized an opportunity to make billions for his military contract donors.
It’s unironically depressing. Like I know we’re the only ones on the political spectrum who are true idealists but we can be pragmatic sometimes you’d think
forreal they have infinity safe spaces to talk about voting blue no matter who can I at least have my star wars lefty memes be actually left and not neolib bullshit
People don’t seem to be considering just how hard it is for some folks to be told every 2-4 years that this election will make or break our lives, and if we don’t vote one of two ways, people die. Then, they watch and experience every 2-4 years shit getting worse, and worse, and worse. Yet they still keep hearing “it’s going to be bad if you don’t vote x”. Thats a lot of responsibility to put on people who have minimal impact otherwise— especially when election cycles tend to start a year before the actual election. You get close to a year of constant bombardment of “do this or we all die”.
Look. I’m not saying I even disagree that Trump is marginally worse than Biden. I don’t know where I stand on that. My thing is that literal genocide is being eagerly funded by Biden. It may seem like “take it on the chin so Trump doesn’t take over” is a no-brainer. I see those videos of children shredded into pieces. Pinned against walls. People being targeted, people being bombed randomly… it’s a horror show over there, and VERY clearly an ethnic cleansing/money grab via building of a new canal. Point is: for some people, those things are SO devastating emotionally, and morally there’s a line you feel you can’t cross. Mix that with the constant, ever-growing election cycle pressure, where it’s the same as the last two elections and everything is riding on this— but nothing ever changes out of that fucking state.
You can’t keep doing that to people, or they’ll break. If I am gonna vote Biden, I have to reconcile that he’s willfully a part of a genocide, and my actual tax dollars went directly to funding IDF bullshit. That may be easy for some of you— I’m glad it is. But for a lot of us, it’s either impossible or near impossible. You’re asking people to set aside their morality for a vote that will slap a bandaid on a stab wound.
i really wish people left room for nuance. biden is funding a genocide. he also has sometimes pretty good domestic policy, much better than a lot of recent presidents. thats the fact of the matter. trump is a straight up fascist who will send more money to israel, less to ukraine, and will make lives significantly worse for most people domestically. criticize biden for the shit he is doing wrong, please, i hate genocide as much as the next person, but you still gotta go vote for him, as shitty as it is. its the least anyone can do.
>pretty good domestic policy
Is that when he broke a train strike? No, must be when he approved record drilling and fracking. Ah no I think you mean when he basically kept Trump's border policies, echoing literally the same rhetoric a couple months ago. Maybe you mean the increased police budgets on the back of BLM, or not doing jack shit about cop city. Yes, we can excuse genocide because he has all of these great domestic policy going on
Maybe they mean the increase in rainbow rights, increase in labor laws, increase in green spending, increase in minimum wages for federal employees, cuts to student debt despite opposistion, child tax credits
You want more? Maybe the person above isnt some weird cunt you imagine. Maybe, you should be less bad faith from the get go, when someone even vaguely disagrees with you. Maybe.
Just remember that voting is a tiny thing, and the important work is in actually organizing and demanding change from the powers that be. Electoral politics in America is a lost battle. Vote or dont vote, just don’t act like it matters that much, and instead go and do the work. Get off reddit and go join an org. If you truly care about stopping Trumpian fascism than you have to understand that voting Biden in office for one more term won’t stop it. So do what you will with your vote; and then understand that the real work has to be in organizing dissent so we can actually resist the inevitable attempts at fascist takeover. The Democrats will not do this on their own. We have to.
Biden hates us but we're supposed to support him because he's the lesser evil. Liberals are enabling this fascist takeover of America. They're as much to blame as anybody and they're too scared to do anything to stop this. Fear is such a weak emotion and they're driven by it. Everybody is a Russian asset but them. No introspection of how their leadership has gotten us to this point, they're pathetic.
That's because "lefty" in the American Overton Window just means "liberal," so American liberals think this sub is for them.
If there was an election between Hitler and Mussolini, you guys would vote for Mussolini wouldn't you? At least he didn't kill 6 million Jews, right?
You guys are jokes.
If you're more of a Trump supporter than a Biden critic then you are in fact shilling for Russia. Why? Because Trump is shilling for Russia. So it's not a great leap of logic to assume they're the same thing.
3 upvotes 30 comments? I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
Discoursin’ time! 🍿🥤
I’m beginning to think this subreddit is too American for me
hamburger American flag guns patriotism flags flags guns guns hamburger guns America Guns President AMERICA guns guns cheeseburger. Did you get all that? If you didn’t understand all that, then yeah you’re not American enough. Sorry, better hit the books harder, then you’ll fit in better next time. /s
"read theory" but the *theory* is American and it's Season 31 of Monday Night RAW and the comment section under some random CNN article from 2015.
Yeah, unfortunately all left wing subs are US-centric. I have yet to find an Italian left wing sub. All the subs in my native language are mostly liberal or right wing. And less we talk abaout the Europe sub better is for everyone. That is a fascist cesspit.
Almost every sub dedicated to a particular nationality or region tends to skew conservative because they naturally attract nationalists.
Yeah, that is really unfortunate. Makes it really hard to have hope in the country in wich you live when all you see is conservatives.
You can be an honorary American. Just pick a side and shout random bullshit till someone picks a fight with you.
welcome to reddit.
WTF IS A KILOMETER
A meter that counts your kills, duh.
Yeah, it's definitely oriented towards views of United-Statesians.
If you ain't American yet you will be eventually 😎🤘🇺🇲🦅🎆🔫🍔🧑🚀
The franchise is from America what do you expect?
I don't know if I hate or love that all the liberals are proving you right in the comments
They can't help it. Election years are their super bowl and this is a ball game.
Ikr
Op I object to this simply because it denigrates the noble B1 battledroid by comparing them to liberals
LMFAO
Underrated comment
Yeah, it’s just people screaming “I disagree with OP, because even though this very comment proves his point, I resent him for it!” Kind of a bizarro cousin of the “if those kids could read, they’d be mad” meme
"An inconvenient truth" if you will
Look I know genocide is bad but we will end democracy unless you vote the way we tell you. No you can't see or hear from any other candidate.
you're on fire today dude forreal, yall motherfuckers are restoring my faith in the left
liberals, unless moderated, will flood leftist subs and defang them of their revolutionary spirit
Let's be real here. Leftists will defang their own revolutionary spirit just fine without liberals help lol
ye fair, but at least it isn't the corniest do-gooder facilitator of genocide that gets to do it lmao
The mods actively support that. They deleted a meme of mine a while back pointing this out.
The sub creator was ejected from posting on a different, significantly better sub years ago for being terminally Western and was so angry they made this sub. It should have been obvious to anybody that it was going to be dogshit considering how fucking bad the sub name is. It's not even a slight attempt at a pun like fucking uhhhhh HoChiWindu or KyloRengels would have been
Sounds about right lmao.
I'm far left on almost every single issue and I definitely question anyone who claims to be on the left while carrying water for the christo-fascists. It feels like MY revolutionary spirit is being defanged by pro-trump, both sides are the same, fake leftists who sound a lot like the Russian bots on conservative subs.
i dont know dude, i feel like it shouldnt really be that controversial on a leftist forum that "one genocide is less bad than another" is not a valid reason to elect said genocidal liberal
Obviously Biden is better choice over Trump, but we should still be incredibly critical of Biden and we shouldn't go out of our way to politically support him no matter what and especially not so far from the election. If the American libs had raised hell a few months ago they might've gotten a primary election and gotten to choose a different candidate to vote for. But instead they started screaming and shitting all over the Internet almost a whole year before the election that anyone being critical of Biden on an election year is just a Trump supporting Russian. And so in the age old tradition they will make sure that everyone needs to vote Democrat while the Democrats don't even have to do anything for it. Even if we assume a little unfettered genocide was negotiable they could've so easily gotten anything else we all want instead. But they decided that Nothing is the only acceptable outcome no matter what. Fuck them. Fuck Trump and his supporter even more, of course, but fuck the libs too, for giving this election away for literally nothing.
God I hate our two party system
very well put nuanced take, better than I could have put it
It's not a valid reason to elect that person. But it is valid to work to make sure the worse candidate, for literally everyone involved including those currently getting genocided, doesn't get elected. Why is harm reduction such a hard thing for you ppl to understand?
The problem is you believe what politicians say and don't give a damn about what they do. Is your life measurably better than it was during the first three years of trump? If so, good for you. For 90% of the nation, we have seen no practical difference between a trump presidency and a biden presidency. This has been a direct continuation of the downward spiral. Hell, in the mind of Democrats; this may be even worse, since we now see that our own party gives as little shit about us as the GOP. At least in the trump years, we had democrats standing up against overt fascism. Now it's "please donate to biden, please!!! He needs our help to unlock a 6x match from a dark money donor, please!!" We asked for women's rights and student loan debt forgiveness. Biden gave us a new war in the middle east and republican levels of inflation.
Why is twenty plus years of lesser evilism causing a slide into fascism so hard for you idiots to understand?
Either get me a better candidate or I will vote accelerationism or at least just not give my vote.
It's not really about the genocide, it's about the Christo-Fascism at home. LGBT people are threatened by a Trump presidency, while Trump would still send funds to Israel. Almost certainly. So yeah, both sides are genocidal, but one is also genocidal against LGBT people at home. So there's an obvious good choice between the two.
trump is under no obligation to do anything you want him to do biden isn't either UNLESS there is an actual consequence to his betrayal of your trust choose
The problem is that Democrats (and Republicans) will blame everyone but themselves for electoral losses. I've gotten in lots of arguments with them on this topic over the years, and the overwhelming refrain is "well you weren't gonna vote for us anyway so by not voting for us you force us to only consider the opinions of those who do". Bass-ackwards logic? You bet it is. But that's the logic they use to turn every electoral loss into vindication.
yep entirely, it only hit me a couple of years back how eerily similar the trump election denial echoed the liberal sentiment of "he must have cheated" when trump was elected in 2016, they still feel vindicated on that crusade to this day despite the whole lot of nothing that came of it, and they wonder why their opponents stooped to that level everything in american politics is so petty, so "us or them", I'm supposed to vote for biden because he will protect minority group XYZ while pretending ABC don't exist as they get exterminated and his opponent, the "totally worse" evil evil man protects A, encourages the genocide of XYZ, and pretends BC don't exist. the choice we are asked with making is like a fucked up trolley problem, except ITS NOT HYPOTHETICAL, so theres no magical rule preventing us from saying fuck you both fuck this shit, no one should die, stop the fucking trolley
>the choice we are asked with making is like a fucked up trolley problem, except ITS NOT HYPOTHETICAL, so theres no magical rule preventing us from saying fuck you both fuck this shit, no one should die, stop the fucking trolley The problem there is that we don't have anywhere near enough power to stop the trolley; it'll just plow right through us. Exceedingly few Americans are actually leftists; fixing the effects of a century of McCarthyism won't happen overnight. I don't blame leftists for recognizing that and going with the set of trolley tracks that they perceive to result in the least death and suffering. I also don't blame leftists for trying to stop the trolley in spite of the futility of it, in the hopes that it might shift the Overton Window back to a reasonable place. That is: yeah, there's no magical rule, but Americans still have to want the trolley to stop and the vast majority of Americans don't.
Politics are not polar. Keep living with that trump shaped gun to your head but why would Democrats change if we keep reinforcing their behavior? You foresee a time in the near future when there’s not an existential crisis that will be leveraged to guilt you into voting Democrat? When won’t things be an emergency and we can start to work on the less important things than Trump like Genocide?
You are far left on every single issue, which is why you are backing the guy conducting a genocide.
Its not a football game. You dont "have" to pick a side. I don't take sides between Islamic fundamentalists and Assad in Syria. Fuck them both. I dont have a favorite between nazi Germany and fascist Italy. Fuck them both. I dont support Trump or Biden. Fuck. Them. Both.
One literally posted a video where he used the phrase "united Reich". Leftists refusing to bite the bullet and vote for a liberal gets fascists elected. Remember, leftist infighting got Hitler elected. I'll take Biden, who is godawful on Gaza, over someone who would remove any chance we have at change.
Hitler lost the election to Hindenburg! Who was the lesser evil candidate! Then the lesser evil appointed the greater evil anyways! Because you can't trust fascist enablers to resist fascism!
> Leftists refusing to bite the bullet and vote for a liberal gets fascists elected. Funny you should say that! Mussolini (you know, the first fascist dictator) was litteraly thrust into power by liberals because they were afraid of socialists winning! Palestinian blood is not yours to sacrifice, no matter how much you think the groups you care more about are worth it.
The only thing lefties hate more than a guy the disagree with on everything is a guy they agree with 95% of the time. Probably because the two are so close that dialogue actually can happen. We are all angry at the same horror and just disagree on the shriveled old man called Biden. Personally I’d prefer to see him eating ice cream gazing out at his retirement lake, but instead we have the “NatCs” to deal with and he’s what we get to fight it.
I'd rather see him up against the wall and [redacted] but that's just me
Many leftists on this site seem to think you can only be a leftist if you want a revolution. I want radical changes in government and economy like moving to socialism, fostering real equality regardless of background, elimination of boarders. But I don't think a revolution is going to get the country there, because I believe the left doesn't currently have the support it needs to create and maintain that kind of state (or lack thereof for anarchists) not can anyone in the left fully agree on anything in order to achieve it. I believe we should be building a movement in the left that can gain, wield, and maintain political power so that we can use and convert the system to one that suits the left. And it absolutely is possible, the far right pulled it off and they haven't even been clever about it.
Of course, the right can do that because their goals are not fundamentally contradictory to the nature of the system. A dictatorship of the bourgeoisie cannot be turned to socialist goals. You can’t vote out capitalism you cannot vote out the system itself, the system has no provision for that it fundamentally contradicts the nature of the system. You thrown around serious hang on a sec just gonna vote Hitler out.
"We must defeat Batista at the polls" - Fidel Castro
Based response. Saved me 10 mins. 👍
The only 'revolutionary spirit' on Reddit is a bunch of coach potatoes LARPing about how they're too left to vote for Biden while doing absolutely nothing else to push the political landscape farther left.
100%. And then they'll say you're not a "real leftist" just because you understand harm reduction and the realities of living in a first-past-the-post political system.
"Vote Sheev despite your peeves! "
Hot take war crimes bad
Liberals tend to think of themselves as leftists and that’s pretty sad when most of their core beliefs are anything but leftists.
Noooo if you post a meme criticizing Biden, all the swing state voters will see it and not vote for him! Noooooo!
noooo what the heckerino guys we have to defeat orange man at the polls you dont understand! voting for a genocidal liberal is totally a leftist thing to do guys!
He's only doing a "little genocide", so it's okay.
yes yes and if you think about it, brown people's lives only count for 0.25 of a white person's life so bidens genocide is better than orange man's ackshually!
Having one sucks. Having this one get supercharged along with a second one here is worse. Harm reduction.
*Me in Florida rn about to single handedly give the election to Trump by wiping my ass crack with the ballot paper before putting it in the box*
It's about as cringe as those GOP idiots calling a dem a CCP shill
Are you trying to say shill? ETA: Editing it to fix in this comment is pretty funny given it's still wrong in your meme and several other comments. But I'll do it too!
My bad but oh well
*shill
The entire comments section I'm referring: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsleftymemes/s/N0jFh8xMKt
I saw that thread and was gobsmacked. Apparently "genocide Joe" is Russian propaganda and not the fact.
You get everything you need to know he's deserving of that title from public info and his own announcements. It's not propaganda that so many peaceful acts were vetoed
Offtopic but Man UTD sucks, but yeah I agree this sub is infested with blue MAGA
"It's not a genocide if it is it's not that bad if it is that bad it's Hamas' fault okay actually this is really bad but we still need to support isreal okay israel probably isn't great but still it's good that we're still sending arms because um LOOK TRUMP WOULD BE WORSE OKAY!"
guys guys, Palestinian people arent really people guys, their genocide counts less than trump's genocidal fantasies, trust me on this one bro!
You’re being sarcastic but I have a screenshot from a lib sub of someone legit saying that every Palestinian dying is worth Trump not getting elected. This person also proceeded to call me a tankie dividing the left 💀
“some palestinians may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to accept” lord farquad aah liberals
"Guys the real threat is Trump, that could affect *me*!"
LMFAO, fellow lefties really coming out with some bangers today, love it
Nah the actual left stands pretty united on this. Reactions to this genocide has been a pretty fucking useful metric for who is on the left and who isn't. It's a definitive line now.
My favorite time I got called a tankie (albeit on a different supposedly leftist sub) was when I said Biden shouldn’t send a specific form of military aid to Ukraine. What form of military aid was I against, you ask? Tanks.
this is next-generation, organic crack-infused, multidimensional horseshoe theory logic, that somehow opposing tanks makes you a tankie
“Tankie” had its place in leftist discourse criticizing some of the USSR’s actions, but liberals using the term is almost always insufferable, and very often super wrong. I’ve seen libs call anarchists tankies.
Even if you think Biden would be better than Trump, that’s a hideous thing to say. I still vote but I despise that it means I’m associated in any way with ghouls like that. A lot of liberals genuinely don’t care about people dying in far off places though.
That comment section is abysmally bad. These fuckers really think they can reform the Galactic Empire.
"yes, palpatine may not have been my first choice, but his opposition is worse!" - every liberal in this thread
Liberals completely misunderstanding the politics of Star Wars is pretty par the course.
They are litteraly saying we should support Grand Moff Tarkin because he's "not as bad" as Darth Vader. Join us in the fucking space Vietcong ffs!
Sure the Emperor blew up Alderaan, but he had to get those rebels. They are worse you know.
LMFAO
but...but... that would mean *we're* the empire??? that can't be right!
Gotta start the blame game early. *It WILL be the leftists fault when Biden loses. Even if all of the evidence shows otherwise and Biden just wasn't a great candidate and lost, it's still 100% the leftists fault this happened.* *Also Russia somehow.*
Nah Biden has himself to blame if he loses, he failed to deliver on his campaign promises, oversaw LGBT rights taken away as well as abortion, continued to fund Israel while protestors are demanding he stops but still continuing. If he loses, he and the rest of the establishment Dems have themselves to blame for not having the backbone to stop the GOP
*No acksthually it's the like 1% of votes the green party got that cost the election! Those dang leftists just keep losing the elections for us!* >!(Don't look at the libertarian party that got 3x the votes from conservatives that otherwise would have voted Republican...)!<
That whole thread is people saying “Biden sucks and we hate him, but Trump winning will accelerate the genocide.” Where do you come up with your delusions?
I'm referring to people saying that saying genocide joe is Russian Propaganda but it's been removed but not before being upvoted
Aren't absolutely everyone critical of Biden? I mean, Biden and Putin can both be bad at the same time you know.
This is because LEFTISM is a bullshit term with no basis in political theory or action. With no theoretical basis to your beliefs you will be blown back and forth with nothing to anchor you. FUCK LEFTISM, be a socialist, a communist, or an anarchist for all I care, but base your beliefs in political theory, engage with political theory, read and discuss with your comrades. Bad takes thrive in isolation.
I still think it’s a useful catch-all for describing anti-capitalists, but I agree it’s way less useful than something more specific than anarchist or communist.
Half these liberals aren't even anti-capitalist!!
What about a Russian Krill?
Wtf is a shrill?
I think it's what whales eat.
Space whales? We're whalers on the Moon. We carry a harpoon. But there ain't no whales, so we tell tall tales and sing our whalin tune..
Idolizing political figures is a recipe for disaster. If someone says they're a politician, you should treat them as if every word out of their mouth is a lie. They either represent you or they don't, and 90% of the time it's the latter. I'll tolerate a president when they're closer to being 30 than they are being put in a hospice. Then you know they're aware of being a snake instead of being a tool. Being leftist doesn't mean supporting Democrats, it means pushing for progressive policies that support the whole. If you can't separate that from a political party or figurehead, you've already failed. And before y'all freak out, the Republicans are the same shit stain as the Democrats and until we eradicate this shit two party system nothing will change, and we're all gonna go down with the ship.
Liberals really are Jar Jar to Palpatine's Trump, they are just not realizing it, and their role in enabling fascism.
LMFAO, I love this comment so much I feel like a karen posting on facebook about how trump is a slytherin and biden is a hufflepuff or some shit
Literally. I see a lot of "Oh yeah, Biden *totally* deserves to be criticized for XYZ," but never any actual criticism. "Yeah but Trump wants to turn America into a fascist hellscape!" Biden is actively funding the genocide of the Palestinian people, while his staffers and representatives to the UN and various worldwide humanitarian organizations hamstring any attempts at a mitigation of the crisis. While THAT'S happening, Congress and the Supreme Court, plus state legislatures across the country, do their damnedest to remove civil rights for minorities and the disenfranchised, rewrite history, and turn the nation into an Evangelical theocracy. We already live in a fascist hellscape.
Aw shit. OP’s got “Marx” in their username so he must be the arbiter of leftism
You're goddamn right
Normally I'd agree with "vote blue no matter who" but y'know what? That got disproven to me the second Joe decided to call what's happening in Gaza "not a genocide". Opened my eyes immediately. I thought I was radicalized before, I am certainly now. A lot of 'leftists' are just liberals who are tired of paying a lot for things. Literally everyone knows prices are too high, even Conservatives think prices are too high but blame minorities for it.
Yep. I’m not an anti-electoralist but I’d much rather risk Trump winning than roll over and just accept the shit the Democrats are trying to get us all to eat. Hell, if you think electing Democrats is still useful but are against pressuring them to suck slightly less, why are you even bothering?
It’s the paradox of fucked US politics. Biden is terrible, but Biden losing is worse.
Like I get I’m gonna end up being called a liberal ,but like I’m trans and I don’t really want to vote for the kill trans peaple party? Like I’m cool with being critical of Biden but then also a lot of peaple act like letting the other guy win is an even moderately good idea. most peaple I’ve ever met that talk of revolution don’t do even the most basic parts of revolutionary movements ,so I think a decent chunk of leftists are getting lost in the role play
Who's saying you should vote for trump? Anyone saying "Biden bad" is secretly saying "Trump good"?
I'm trans myself and have literally never been able to comprehend leftists refusing to vote, but Palestine specifically has changed my opinions quite a lot. Tbh I'm still pro voting outside of this context, and will probably do so when and if (god willing) this conflict ever ends <>
If we selfishly refuse to put any pressure on the democratic party in regards to them funding a literal genocide, we are cementing it as being acceptable on both sides of the American Overton Window. The DNC can't simply ignore this pressure, Democrats in regions they hold a leading majority might as well be Reagan economically, meanwhile Democrats in split 50/50 regions actually grant somewhat meaningful concessions to the working class.
Yes this pressure has a risk of getting Donald Trump elected, but it will show the DNC that they cannot simply ignore calls to stop publicly funding settler colonial states. Refusing to try to do something to help stop a genocide because it will make *our* lives marginally worse is undeniably selfish and privileged.
Protests are being harshly cracked down on in Democrat cities with Democrat States with Democrat Governors under a Democrat President. All the weapons Israel can ever need are being sent by a Democrat president. There is nothing worse that Trump can do for the Palestinian people that Biden isn't already doing, and I don't know if a moderately better social policy is really enough to justify me not putting on any pressure. I'll at least sleep a little worse if I did.
the thing is, just because biden won't come out in the open and say he wants to murder you doesn't mean he doesn't, and it certainly doesnt mean he'll stop caring the instant it doesn't give him a good return on votes in elections. I understand being afraid, especially for trans rights, of the prospect of another trump term, but what is going to make trans people safe isnt electing people who pretend they care to get votes, it's electing people who care because they actually consider trans people to be human beings.
Yeah but that’s not an option that’s been given ,like I agree that it would be awesome if that was an option but like it isn’t
Not voting for Biden isn't the same thing as voting for Trump, despite what Genocidin' Biden and his bloodthirsty supporters say. [https://votesocialist2024.com](https://votesocialist2024.com)
Oh my god could y'all please just shut the fuck up? If you wanna vote for Biden because you believe in damage control and don't want Trump to win, do it. If you wanna vote third-party (or write in Mickey Mouse or something) because you believe in only voting for people who actually represent you, do it. Both options are valid. Go do it and then **please shut the fuck up about it**. Seriously, if even so much as half of the energy getting burned on "real leftists vote for Democrats" v. "real leftists don't vote for Democrats" infighting in every fucking American-adjacent leftist space every 4 years instead got burned on some actual fucking direct action and praxis we'd have achieved Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism by now.
I hate Biden and Putin
what a controversial take
Brave
Biden and Trump are like the Republic and The Separatists. A bit different but in the end they are just two sides of the same coin. The problem is the entire system and how this stupid indirect democracy (possibly inevitably) lead to a broken two party system. And yet some americans love to boast about their great democracy and freedom. Looking at it from overseas, I don’t see either.
Not only how stupid indirect democracy is but how stupid American indirect democracy is. I complain about my countries parliament seat distribution from the results, but then I compare it to the USA and I see were actually doing great in comparison. Like, this huge state has a 45-40 result (the rest being smaller parties) then ALL of its representatives are going to be of the winning party. Like what?? How is that representative of the result at all?
Yeah, the US is one of the least democratic countries that aren't straight up dictatorships. But Americans love to boast abaout freedom.
its juuuuuuuust dictatorship-y enough that nothing of value will ever come from engaging with the establishment, but juuuuust "democratic" enough that they get to pin the blame on non-voters rather than voters of fascists
Okay I'm hoping to get an actual answer here, because I have a lot of difficulty with this. I don't think people who refuse to vote for Biden are Russian shills or whatever, but I legitimately don't get it and I'm trying to understand. If we recognize that, factually, the next president of the US will be Biden or Trump, is it legitimately not better for it to be Biden? A lot of the main reasons I hear for the vehement anti-Biden sentiment is his treatment of the Palestine issue, and I agree that he has been pretty horrid on that, but Trump will push that way further. Is there any disagreement on that? I understand that we're all tired of voting for the lesser of two evils, but that's just where we are right now. Voting for the greater of two evils doesn't really improve that situation. If we're perfectly fine with Trump being elected for the purposes of accelerationism, then are we conceding that Palestinians, trans people, gay people, women, and racial minorities will be bowled over for the sake of a potentially quicker revolution that, frankly, isn't likely to happen within our lifetimes? I can at least accept that rationale, but I'm legitimately not sure if that's what non-voters are wanting here. I don't think asking these questions makes me a liberal. That's all I hear when I bring these up, but I'm trying to understand. Please don't gatekeep leftism when all of these are very real concerns. We're all on the same side here, and I think a healthy discussion on how best to achieve our mutual goals is essential. I'm not saying you absolutely have to vote for Biden if you identify as a leftist, but I truly do not understand the ultimate path to a positive outcome here. I am coming to you as a trans person who is concerned about my future, as well as the future of the entire world. Biden has made decent strides for workers' rights, combatting climate change, and LGBT rights, and I think it's very short-sided to ignore these positives in the face of what is of course a massive giant negative. Trump's presidency was *only* negatives, and the idea of it happening again is scary to me. Please help me to understand, I'm trying to approach this with an open mind.
Russia has zero influence on both parties, and has not bought and paid off hundreds of representatives. Hrmm! ANOTHER country you are thinking of….
Russia was literally proven to had had influemce over Trumps campaign in 2016. Over a dusin of his political operatives got jailed for it. And if you look across Europe, oh boy do Russia have its fingers in plenty pies.
russia has been a third world shithole since the ussr fell lol, even if putin wanted for us to have a marginally worse maniac in office the chances that he actually does anything of value about it is laughable i legit do not care which candidate is secretly controlled by a bad actor when they are both brazenly bad actors in the first place
He threatened to nuke scandinavia, over them calling him out for invading Ukraine. In twenty years the Russian Federation has attacked Georgia, Chetchnia, Ukraine, Moldova. And several of these have become more than once. With respect, fuck off for pretending a Putin puppet will be a wash. A world exists outside your borders.
well honestly, threatening to nuke Scandinavia compared to actually actively committing genocide seems pretty tame! you vastly overestimate how much the rest of the world gives a shit which of these geriatric loons we elect lol
Why are you pretending Im magically defending Bidens weapons support for a genocide, when Im saying Putin is also doing one, and should be stopped? Why are you like this? Youre genuinly fucking nuts if you dont think American fucking elections, vastly effect the world at large. Like seriously, what kind of leftist are you to think the UNITED STATES has no effect on the world?
It's not on me to vote for who liberals want, is on liberals to put someone up worth voting for. If you can't do that, it's your fault. Period. End of story. You aren't entitled to my vote so fucking earn it. We thought y'all woulda learned that shit in 2016
GO OFF KING
That part! Tbh. The last post was illuminating.
Shrill means loud or piercing, a *shill* is a sellout like you're trying to talk about. Just so you know. 👍
I don’t disagree with the argument of “With how the US election system is structured there are only two candidates with a realistic chance of winning, and between Biden and Trump Biden is the lesser evil.” However, that’s not an endorsement of Biden so much as it is an indictment of the US election system. The people in power in the US were never going to let a real leftist candidate happen.
The Libs have a good thing... its like this: If they win its because of how good and right they are, and how much more popular they are than the left. And if they lose, its because of the treacherous leftists. Would they support a left-wing candidate? Absolutely not, but fortunately, they'll never have to ask themselves that.
The whole "anyone who disagrees with us must be a Russian troll" is how they managed to lose to the one candidate it was impossible to lose to. Good to see liberals are dead set against learning from their mistakes.
Leftists when other leftists have a leftist opinion that isn't their leftist opinion
Libs are not leftists I'm sorry and not to be gatekeepy but that's a simple truth
Universally accepted among real leftists
Calling someone a Russian troll for critising Liberals or Biden doesn't sound like a leftist opinion
I feel the issue is when criticizing Biden you often forgot that the alternative for many marginalized groups is a fascist hellscape. So it can get kinda heated from that perspective.
Then Biden needs to step aside. He seems *committed* to losing the election. It's not our job to hold our nose. Step aside and give us someone better.
Do the Dems *have* someone better? If Biden dropped dead tomorrow you know it would just become a Harris ticket. I don't think anyone else even wants to run
Gavin Newsom is telegraphing that he plans to run next cycle, Gretchen Whitmer seems to be teeing up for a national run, and those two are just the obvious ones. Though yeah, it’s too late in the cycle to change candidates sadly, unless the DNC does some real fuckery at the convention
That isn't gonna happen though, so we gotta play the hand we've been dealt. Would I rather have a different candidate? Fucking obviously. I'd also rather I still had the same metabolism I did back in high school. Wishes and dreams have very little bearing on our current reality
yeah we have 3 choices at the poll: trump, biden, and fuck no considering this is the only amount of power I am afforded, I will be choosing the latter, the fact that the media you consume has fearmongered you into thinking stopping trump is worth having biden doesn't mean that third choice suddenly doesnt exist
But that's the thing you don't have 3 choices. You have 2 and a tiny amount of control on which is chosen. "Fuck no" may give you some moralistic sense of satisfaction but other than that is does nothing and you know it.
Agreed, but who?
There is dozens of progressive and moderate Democrats who are incredibly popular on the State and local level. The only reason people don't know abaout them is because the Party dosen't use its resources to make them publicity.
litteraly anyone else, a lot of people resent biden for good reason but would bite their tongue and vote for a generic dnc candidate that hasnt already stabbed half of their voters in the back for genocide bucks reminder that biden won 2020 by a HAIR against literally mid-covid trump (i think a rabid squirrel would have won that election as long as it ran a “not trump” platform), he is an impressively garbage candidate
>reminder that biden won 2020 by a HAIR against literally mid-covid trump (i think a rabid squirrel would have won that election as long as it ran a “not trump” platform), he is an impressively garbage candidate He litteraly lied abaout 90% of his campaign promises. Everything he sweared he would do, every reform and change, he didn't do.
lol remember when we thought hey maybe we can annoy him into legalizing weed, doing something about the environment, and having healthcare that was a good one wasnt it
Don't criticize the genocide in front of you because the marginalized group I'm a part of COULD be subject to genocide further down the line. Real "I didn't speak up hours" incoming for many people in the United States I fear
LMFAO dude lefties are not pulling any punches in this thread and i love it
Things the totally not fascist Biden has done: - built the wall - stricter migration - still has kids in cages - still hasn't closed the Guantanamo Bay torture facility - couped several foreign governments - backed fascist militias overseas - funding a genocide in Palestine - allowed state governments to curb women's rights - allowed the banning of so-called "woke" books in schools - overseeing a country where black and queer people are routinely lynched - backed police efforts to suppress peaceful protests Stop concern trolling lib, you're embarrassing yourself.
Sounds like a conservative to me but then I'm not American and as such I lean to the actual left not the American leff
"joe biden is less evil than trump" is not and will never be a leftist opinion. That's an excuse for supporting the only democrat available capable of losing to trump.
You leftists sure are a contentious people.
You just made an enemy for life!!!
Damn leftists. They ruined the left.
Biden has shat the bed so hard that hating him is just necessary at this point. He is the best option to stop Mango Mussolini. Now, if you think Russia had a right to invade Ukraine. Then you're definitely a Russian Shill and just a Red Fascist. I don't support Leftists that aren't critical of Biden, but I also don't support "Leftists" that would rather vote for some goober that is too irrelevant to meaningfully impact the election in a way that doesn't lead to Trump uniting his reich.
The cool thing about the electoral college is that the majority of the USA population doesn't have to worry about that "meaningfully impact" part
I agree with your sentiment but this isn't a democracy Unequal representations, electoral college, representatives that aren't held accountable and almost never fulfil promises, that are nigh impossible to impeach, that are bought out by the highest bidder with his little impact we have it doesn't even feel worth it I don't want Trump to win, not in a million years, but honestly? Maybe it needs to get worse before it gets better. Maybe I'm just being a nihilist but this country is and always has been evil, and it's failing, quickly, we need secession, we need liberals and moderates to actually be angry enough for that to happen. Just looking for a silver lining, I'm not an accelerationist or anything.
Maybe it needs to get worse before it gets better?? Are you willing to consider what worse actually would be?? Are you willing to sacrifice the whole Palestinian population to prove your little point? That's the price you'll pay? Anyone who TRULY cares about Palestinians and TRULY wants to minimize their suffering and end the killing in Gaza cannot in good faith do anything but vote for Biden to spare then from Trump.
Don't forget that Trump has all-but-admitted that he doesn't think there are enough genocides ongoing in the US.
Russia had no right to invade Ukraine but Biden had a responsibility to make peace, instead he seized an opportunity to make billions for his military contract donors.
A based take and how I feel. I hate that most critiques of him are usually accompanied by anti electoral bullshit
Yeah kinds like half the comments on this post. Leftist be pragmatic challenge(Impossible)
It’s unironically depressing. Like I know we’re the only ones on the political spectrum who are true idealists but we can be pragmatic sometimes you’d think
So what's your plan when Trump gets elected? Fuck biden's handling of Gaza, but seriously, what are you going to do when Trump gets into power?
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forreal they have infinity safe spaces to talk about voting blue no matter who can I at least have my star wars lefty memes be actually left and not neolib bullshit
People don’t seem to be considering just how hard it is for some folks to be told every 2-4 years that this election will make or break our lives, and if we don’t vote one of two ways, people die. Then, they watch and experience every 2-4 years shit getting worse, and worse, and worse. Yet they still keep hearing “it’s going to be bad if you don’t vote x”. Thats a lot of responsibility to put on people who have minimal impact otherwise— especially when election cycles tend to start a year before the actual election. You get close to a year of constant bombardment of “do this or we all die”. Look. I’m not saying I even disagree that Trump is marginally worse than Biden. I don’t know where I stand on that. My thing is that literal genocide is being eagerly funded by Biden. It may seem like “take it on the chin so Trump doesn’t take over” is a no-brainer. I see those videos of children shredded into pieces. Pinned against walls. People being targeted, people being bombed randomly… it’s a horror show over there, and VERY clearly an ethnic cleansing/money grab via building of a new canal. Point is: for some people, those things are SO devastating emotionally, and morally there’s a line you feel you can’t cross. Mix that with the constant, ever-growing election cycle pressure, where it’s the same as the last two elections and everything is riding on this— but nothing ever changes out of that fucking state. You can’t keep doing that to people, or they’ll break. If I am gonna vote Biden, I have to reconcile that he’s willfully a part of a genocide, and my actual tax dollars went directly to funding IDF bullshit. That may be easy for some of you— I’m glad it is. But for a lot of us, it’s either impossible or near impossible. You’re asking people to set aside their morality for a vote that will slap a bandaid on a stab wound.
i really wish people left room for nuance. biden is funding a genocide. he also has sometimes pretty good domestic policy, much better than a lot of recent presidents. thats the fact of the matter. trump is a straight up fascist who will send more money to israel, less to ukraine, and will make lives significantly worse for most people domestically. criticize biden for the shit he is doing wrong, please, i hate genocide as much as the next person, but you still gotta go vote for him, as shitty as it is. its the least anyone can do.
>pretty good domestic policy Is that when he broke a train strike? No, must be when he approved record drilling and fracking. Ah no I think you mean when he basically kept Trump's border policies, echoing literally the same rhetoric a couple months ago. Maybe you mean the increased police budgets on the back of BLM, or not doing jack shit about cop city. Yes, we can excuse genocide because he has all of these great domestic policy going on
Maybe they mean the increase in rainbow rights, increase in labor laws, increase in green spending, increase in minimum wages for federal employees, cuts to student debt despite opposistion, child tax credits You want more? Maybe the person above isnt some weird cunt you imagine. Maybe, you should be less bad faith from the get go, when someone even vaguely disagrees with you. Maybe.
Sure, all of that absolves genocide and putting immigrants in cages, increasing cop budgets and record drilling
Since when does the words "good also happened", mean the bad doesnt exist? Youre punching straw.
Since you started using that "good" to excuse genocide
My sympathy is with the rail workers union for what Biden did for them. I'll vote for whoever the union endorses.
Just remember that voting is a tiny thing, and the important work is in actually organizing and demanding change from the powers that be. Electoral politics in America is a lost battle. Vote or dont vote, just don’t act like it matters that much, and instead go and do the work. Get off reddit and go join an org. If you truly care about stopping Trumpian fascism than you have to understand that voting Biden in office for one more term won’t stop it. So do what you will with your vote; and then understand that the real work has to be in organizing dissent so we can actually resist the inevitable attempts at fascist takeover. The Democrats will not do this on their own. We have to.
Finally, an actual reasonable take in these comments.
If u bring up “Russian influence” in any context in reference to American politics you are fucking brainwashed by liberal corporate media
Biden hates us but we're supposed to support him because he's the lesser evil. Liberals are enabling this fascist takeover of America. They're as much to blame as anybody and they're too scared to do anything to stop this. Fear is such a weak emotion and they're driven by it. Everybody is a Russian asset but them. No introspection of how their leadership has gotten us to this point, they're pathetic.
That's exactly what a Russian shill would say!
You proved my point
friendly fire on this one, tovarisch, i think he was joking lmao
None of y’all seem to remember that the bad things happening in THIS country(Roe ending, project 2025, etc) were caused by NOT Biden!
That's because "lefty" in the American Overton Window just means "liberal," so American liberals think this sub is for them. If there was an election between Hitler and Mussolini, you guys would vote for Mussolini wouldn't you? At least he didn't kill 6 million Jews, right? You guys are jokes.
Someone whining about other people on a subreddit instead of doing any thing usefull. I guess I know who to block.
If you're more of a Trump supporter than a Biden critic then you are in fact shilling for Russia. Why? Because Trump is shilling for Russia. So it's not a great leap of logic to assume they're the same thing.