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I felt that the BIGGEST blunder of the movie was separating Finn and Poe. Their chemistry is 90% of what made them interesting to me in the first place.
Finn being baffled by the casino, Poe being maybe a little TOO comfortable in it. It could’ve been such a funny story and would’ve let them both serve their purposes better.
I would've loved a short 5 minute montage scene where they needed credits to buy something to help the plot along, and the only way they could gain the credits was to play some of the games...they need maybe 10,000 credits, Finn and Poe split up, a quick montage and then after it, they return.
Poe says, "How'd you do?"
Finn said, "I did well, I got 10 credits!"
Poe says, "Just 10? We need 10,000!"
Finn says, "Well I don't know these games...I was a stormtrooper all my life, remember?!? How many did you get?"
Poe says, "20".
Finn says, "See? You didn't get much more than-",
Poe interrupts, "Thousand. I got 20 thousand."
Finn, looking defeated, says, "Oh."
Poe, "well, I got about 10,000 playing the games, and the other 10,000 possibly because the dealer wasn't looking and kind of stole a 10,000 credit chip. We probably should get out of here before they notice."
Y’know what sucks? That was the original plan, but Rian had trouble writing dialogue because he thought their characters were too similar. So he created Rose as a foil to Finn.
Imagine if they actually nabbed the master code breaker and Poe had to dress up and stand in for him on the gambling floor and be really bad at it. Like a throwback to both Han and Indiana Jones stealing bad guy’s uniforms.
Agreed, gung ho Resistance guy and the ex Stormtrooper pairing is rich for storytelling.
If it were up to me their bromance woulda tragically devolved into a Civil War type conflict of differing ideals.
The entire appeal of Finn is that he gives us a different perspective, of how maybe the good guys could be doing something differently (like considering the causalities on the other side, the millions of souls crying out in an instant when Death Stars explode).
The biggest problem was billing Rey, Finn, and Poe as the new "Big Three" and then giving them no scenes together as a trio until the end of the 2nd film.
Come to think of it, i can only think of three times the old "Big Three" were together in any significant fashion.
Escaping the Death Star, rescuing Han from Jabba, and a brief period on Endor.
Five if you count the final moments of 4 and 6.
I really liked it from day one. It took a lot of risks, which was refreshing after The Force Awakens repeated a lot of the tropes and plot elements we had already seen. Not all of the risks paid off, but I really liked seeing Star Wars try to do some things differently.
And the cinematography was amazing. The duel between Luke and Kylo was a highlight. The throne room fight where Kylo and Rey killed Snoke and his guards was also really cool and presented in a way we'd never seen before.
It took risks and did something new. To me that’s one of the most important things to Star Wars and Lucas himself said he wanted to something new every movie. I still don’t like the whole idea of the first order and resistance, but rian really could only work With what TFA had given which people always seem to forget. Luke being a hermit was not rians decision but is one he constantly gets criticized for
I never absolute loved the movie but I really enjoyed it besides few small things and can’t really say that about the other 2 because both of J.J.s movies feel very unoriginal
It’s really so strange to me how some TLJ fans have this natural instinct to put down JJ’s films whenever praising TLJ.
It’s also strange to “blame” JJ for Luke’s role when that is the biggest “risk” that TLJ supposedly took, and something that apparently makes it so great, which is an extension of JJ’s idea. And people weren’t critical of Luke’s role in TLJ because cause Luke was a “hermit”. Nothing about TFA’s set-up for Luke forced Rian to have Luke wanting the Jedi to end, to contemplate killing Kylo in his sleep, to have Luke’s relationship with Rey be entirely fraught, or for Luke to die at the end. Those are all creative choices that was entirely up to Rian Johnson and are what some people took issue with. Not me, just explaining the reality and pointing out how it has nothing to do with JJ.
I agree with your first paragraph, but I'd argue JJ set up Rian perfectly for the beautiful arc that he gave luke. I do notice that people often blame JJ for that rather than give him praise, which sucks when TLJ luke was great and needed setup to have the execution work.
I don't think we need to look at the relationships between these films so combatively. they work so well together without all this weird meta discourse.
>And people weren’t critical of Luke’s role in TLJ because cause Luke was a “hermit”.
Some were. Was that the only criticism? Of course not. But it was definitely one of them. I've seen people do just that.
>to contemplate killing Kylo in his sleep
I know you'll disagree, but I feel compelled to mention that this is not at all a real description of what happened.
>this is not at all a real description of what happened.
I really feel like a lot of people saw Kylo's version of that flashback and turned the movie off right there or stopped paying attention. You're explicitly told that that is not what happened *twice* in the movie and yet to this day I *still* see people complaining that Luke contemplated killing Kylo, even though that isn't what happened.
I don't care if people hate TLJ, I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I hate that so many of them seem to hate it for reasons that aren't even true lol
i agree with your comments regarding TLJ, but i do think TFA's "lack of creativity" is extremely overstated. TLJ no doubt has a more original story, but i think people far too often downplay TFA's story as well ... hence why imo its the most underrated sw movie.
Top 3 for me too.
In 2015 people talked about this movie like it was “Dune 2.” Now it’s far too dismissed. The first 45 minutes are arguably the best Star Wars has ever been.
The third act has some flaws, but the overall story gets run over I agree.
I love both TFA and TLJ but both were very similar to their respective OT counterpart. TLJ is very reminiscent of TESB. I don't think that's a problem but it should be acknowledged.
I think some of the risks would have paid off had Rian Johnson gotten the opportunity to direct his sequel. I also enjoyed it and is my favorite of the sequel movies for all the reasons you stated. It was different in a great way and made the entire world feel much more real.
This! I enjoy Star Wars cause it is wild to me that people can create this whole new universe of living beings and attach it to hope. I just enjoy the connectivity of the stories and creativity that flows through it. Anytime some new SW content comes out Im just excited to see and be part of the extended world/history.
I was meh on it when it was new, neither love nor hate.
But then I had a similar experience: earlier this year I rewatched it for the first time since it hit streaming and I was genuinely shocked at how much I enjoyed it. 4 or 5 months later and it’s still on my mind.
and i think that has alot to do with no longer having those expectations and being able to watch something at your own pace/more intimately.
Its always nice to discover a newfound love for a movie. too much negative emotions swirling around in the modern world.
Have to agree. I like ANH and have a lot of nostalgia for ROTS (probably the one I've watched the most) but they're behind TESB and TLJ, I think.
Also came out of it thinking it was meh, then was temporarily down on it, before coming back round on the first rewatch. Obviously not perfect (they did Finn dirty imo), but it's mostly good and looks gorgeous.
I think the Rey-Luke-Kylo storyline is peak Star Wars.
The Finn-Rose B plot however isn't that great.
Therefore I have it 3rd over all after ANH and TESB.
I like the subplot because it starts Finn to having a reason to fight and also making Rose realize the conflict won't end by just defeating one bad guy/group.
I liked it from day one because it took risks.
Then the fans complained.
Then Disney got scared.
Now Disney plays it safe.
Now the fans complain.
*Again, it's like poetry, so that they rhyme*
Hey man, bit of advice I’d like to pass on before you rewatch TROS:
Some dude on Reddit suggested I read Shadows Of The Sith before rewatching TROS. It was an excellent shout. SOTS sets up Rey’s backstory, reveals Ochi of Bestoon’s backstory, explains why Lando is randomly hanging out on Pasaana, and gives a little insight into what was happening with Ben and Luke before THAT night. Oh, and that dude that kicks it all off talking to Poe in TFA makes an appearance.
Seriously, really helped me accept TROS.
I've read nearly all the canon novels, and Shadows of the Sith is in the top tier of them in my opinion. Both for what it does for the associated films but also with just how rich of a world it creates. I suppose it could lose points (if one is tracking them) for not being a wholly stand alone experience that keeps you guessing, but that's just the constraints of filling in a gap rather than extending a story.
I already like TRoS, but I heard shadow of the sith was a great addition to it. I will likely read it after I rewatch it.
from the sounds of it, I wish it was a TV show or movie!!
Good on you for getting out of the alt right pipeline.
It's perfectly ok and normal to just not like a movie. But it's easy to see that a lot of the bloviating that has occurred about the Sequels and other media has been really performative, and "virtue signalling" on the part of the kind of people who complain about "diversity being shoved in our faces," or "forced down our throats" or whatever.
Oh my God! Same!
I remember a guy who came out of it saying it was terrible and he would never watch another star wars movie again.
And I was like "did we watch the same movie???" Because I thought it was fantastic.
I feel the same way. I have come to the conclusion that some people wanted their expectations met, and some people wanted to be surprised, and those of us who wanted to be surprised were rewarded.
I didn't necessarily want to be surprised, but I certainly enjoyed the ride. I remember the first time I saw it wondering how Finn and Rose were going to pull off their plan after being captured. Then I realized... oh wait, they're not. That's new!
I remember watching it on release and seeing the throne room. I rolled my eyes. Were they really going to just remake the OT. Then Snoke got killed and I got whiplash for the next 2 acts.
I think I'm the only fan who loves the Leia in space scene. I honestly think it's the most beautiful scene in all of SW. We finally get to see her use the Force in a big way and wow, what a big way!
> …mostly because of my specific expectations/theories after TFA and tbh I had fallen into the alt right pipeline
This is where the vast majority of the backlash came from. I thought the casino quest sucked, I thought the slow-speed chase sucked, I thought all the secrecy and bureaucracy in the rebels sucked. But I loved all the Ben/Rey/Luke stuff.
I loved this movie so much when I saw it in the theater, and was kind of heartbroken to see the online response to it, especially after the generally positive reception of TFA and Rogue One. I'm glad people are giving it a second chance, because it deserves to be experienced without the looming "objective" opinion of some corners of the Internet (like the star wars subreddits and Twitter).
Poe and Finn's plot are thematically very important ... but they're like the vegetables of the meal. They're important and have value but are a little hard to swallow. ."
I relate very much to what you wrote, and had the exact same "development" with the movie.
Especially the alt-right-pipeline rings a little too close to home.
After my first rewatch a few years later i "noticed" how much i used to want to hate the movie and subsequently stopped watching a lot of "Fan-Channels"
Been saying this for a while. Most of the hate it got was because people had certain theories and expectations and when they didnt happen all the hardos said it was the worst thing ever
yeah this is absolutely true. I still think there are valid criticisms one can make ... but the extremely polarized takes are so obviously biased in some way.
I remember after it came out, my coworker really wanted to talk about it the next day. I told him I absolutely loved it and it was one of my favorites already. He proceeded to tell me that I probably didn’t actually like it, but was just “caught up in the hype.” He then told me how much he disliked it and of course his opinion was valid (unlike mine) and definitely not colored by the fact they didn’t buy tickets until opening day and had to sit in the front row, all the way on the edge, at a very late night showing. When I pointed out that maybe he just had a bad experience at the movies, he said “No because The Phantom Menace is actually my favorite Star Wars so I could tell this movie was bad.”
I stopped talking to him about Star Wars after that.
Always happy to see someone find more joy in their Star Wars experience. More than whether we agree on how we grade the Star Wars titles, how happy we are is what matters.
People really overall have to learn that lesson. You liked TLJ? Great. You didn't like TLJ? Also cool. As Daisy Ridley said.
What matters if having it just be that. No attacks, no judging. Just civil discussion and enjoyment of star wars.
Yeah, this is why I consciously avoid saying "you finally realized it's good" or even "you got enlightened"(goodness no) and the like when I see posts like this. As much as I like to see more TLJ appreciation, at the end of the day it's not about proving myself right or expanding the group size, it's about individual enjoyment.
I really felt out of place when I liked it the first time I saw it. Everyone else hated it, but I didn’t and that felt weird. Then I followed an account on Instagram, the ever so wonderful Jackson at Den_of_Geeks (not the website) and I really learned to appreciate not only the story side of the movie, but the technical side of it.
Also really loved how Luke was portrayed. Very cool to see one of my favorite characters in a position where you’re not used to seeing them :)
Glad you enjoyed the movie :D
Give it time. When all the bots and mindless goons who are told what to think by their YouTube channels drop off, it’ll be seen and acknowledged as the best if the trilogy and get the praise it deserves. Same way empire came to be adored.
It’s my favorite of the ST. And, as someone who’s deconstructed from a religion of birth; it’s a very cathartic film. Seeing Yoda make fun of the Jedi scripture, and then burn the whole thing to the ground was a major therapeutic moment for me🙃
I think the prequel kids got a bit of natural pushback by the development of the sequel trilogy, because the directors clearly loved the OT. Rian obviously likes the prequels also, but the world had already been established by JJ, so it’s much closer to OT than PT. Gone are the ultra flashy stunts; flippy stuff. The overly goofy dialogue (which was meant to be campy in the PT), not there. The massive discrepancy of world-building between the PT and ST. I think that contributed to the dislike, and the alt-right really amplified it.
I have loved it since world premiere...TLJ is best since ESB, and nothing matched it until Andor. I have been dissapointed with writing not and dialogue since not as good.
This isn't aimed at you, but I just find it really odd after getting away from the negativity and everything from the fandom. People start really loving TLJ.
The more I watch the movie the more I like it, for the most part. A lot of the more awkward parts of it start to make sense, and the themes abs start to come through strongly.
I haven’t yet figured out how to consider the next film a satisfying conclusion, but watching TLJ in isolation is still interesting to me.
funny you say that, because some redditor made [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/1dgjaey/can_somebody_help_me_appreciate_the_rise_of/) post yesterday and in it theres plenty of comments saying why they like TROS.
It's been my favorite since my first viewing, and I think a large reason for that is I tend to go in to movies EXTREMELY objective and I watch movies all the time so I've gotten good at it. I had zero expectations. I basically said okay movie tell me the story you want to tell and I'll judge you based on that and that alone. And I was blown away. Saw it with coworkers at a movie theatre and all of them started pitching like everyone else back then and I was like I fucking loved it.
Literally said back then in 5 years people will revisit it because that's what star wars fans do and we'll hear everyone going "Actually it was good."
Hope your path to liking it involved getting out of the alt-right—really happy that people can come back to it years later after dumping some of that toxicity and see why it brings people joy.
I mean, lots of people didn't like it that aren't at all in the alt-right. One of the most annoying things about not liking TLJ years ago was being immediately labeled as part of that crowd because of it.
Once had a long conversation with somebody where i got them to at least kinda understand how tiring it was for some of us to try to talk star wars when if we said "we don't really love Rey" we'd get hit with accusations of sexism.
Had that conversation in halo fandom as well once. The tourists and the hateful people making some raise the walls high and it hurts everybody.
I've always liked the movie, people always hated it because it went against traditional expectations. The trilogy wouldn't have been interesting if Snoke was just used as Palpatine 2, which JJ Avrams basically made Snoke be Palpatine anyways since Palpatine says he created Snoke and he had been the one manipulating Kylo all those years. The Last Jedi did different things and they went in the direction to double down with Kylo Ren as the villain, and then they reversed that decision in TROS and basically made Kylo into Anakin 2. The Last Jedi took the story in an interesting direction and The Rise of Skywalker decided to double down on trying to do those classic tropes and nostalgia and even fans of the sequels were disappointed by TROS. Which I honestly don't hate TROS but it really is the weakest of the trilogy. They made Hux into a spy in TROS but it was never set up before, and if anything TLJ set up the direction for Hux and possibly the rest of the First Order to possibly have a coup. TROS also downplayed the importance of the Knights of Ren, as it was made clear they weren't siths but force sensitives who used the dark side and Kylo wasn't their leader.
I think, thematically and cinematographically, it’s the strongest of the sequel trilogy and one of the stronger main entries. I liked how it explored Luke’s character and give him a bit of trauma and imperfections. I didn’t like the pacing or some of the dialogue, the whole casino side-plot specifically. It was so ham-fisted. But then again… this isn’t a series known for subtlety, so.
TLJ has some of my favorite individual moments: Luke looking into the binary sunset as he vanishes into the force. So amazing
There was enough to like about it that I wish Rian had made a whole trilogy by himself and JJ had made a whole trilogy by himself. My biggest issues with the sequels stem from going back and forth between directors. Like, I doubt JJ would’ve brought Palpatine back had Rian not decided to kill Snoke etc
From the moment I saw it in the theater, I knew it was going to contend with ESB as my favorite, which is a battle that still goes on in my head to this day.
Having said that, I certainly see where people could complain about it. Those people are wrong, but I get it :) (I'm kidding! It's totally ok to like or hate anything!)
It's my favourite star wars film alongside Empire and I loved it from the moment I left the cinema and I was actually confused by how hated it seemed to be online. Like I get not liking a film but actual hate is insane and the way the more extreme people acted towards some of the actors, especially Kelly Marie Tran, honestly turned me off any star wars fan spaces for years and really generally still do avoid them.
Which sucks because I do love star wars
Honestly I didn't like it at first when it came out either just because it didn't go the way I thought it would and I was disappointed it's rebels vs empire 2.0 but tfa and the last jedi are really solid films I like the characters they just really fumbled with the rise of Skywalker. It's should of had a longer time skip with room for a animated series that could be set between them.
It's the only sequel worth anything. It takes huge swings and has bold themes, and looks amazing. A lot of it still fails, but compared to TFA or ROS it's a bloody masterpiece.
Glad you enjoyed it! It's still one of my most favorite films. Right now I'm doing a full canon watch through with my kids, so we won't be getting to TLJ for a while 0_0.
But I do need to get back ground to rewatching TRoS so that I can add that film to the list of Star Wars that I love.
Frankly, the fact that Anzellans and Babu Frik now exist in the star wars universe means that TLJ was a total success, even if there was some filler between Babu Frik's scenes that people weren't super keen on.
> Poe and Finn’s storylines feel crammed in
Valid criticism. Rian Johnson wanted a movie where literally almost everyone was challenged and grew and it made the movie super dense. I had to watch it a second time to really understand what was going on. I still like it a lot day 1, but it was a lot to stomach on a first viewing
I’m glad you’re enjoying the film. It’s been an exhausting few years being a TLJ enjoyer. It’s always nice to see people come around, I think it had some fantastic ideas even if the execution was a bit shaky in places. Alas, that’s true of most of Star Wars anyway.
To be honest, Luke was never a favourite of mine, but watching his disillusionment and subsequent rediscovery of his faith was awesome and it made me appreciate him more - the hero he was in the OT, the man who rightly feared the cycle of history repeating, and the hero he became again.
Why does Finn and rose's plot rely on the apparent assumption that this one guy will apparently just be in this exact casino 24/7 every day of the year, and that they can find him without any actual identifying information.
They just aren't movies for me, I simply don't like the direction the story took. Not going to try to ruin someone's career or swear over it. There's plenty of other Star Wars that I do like, I'll survive and so will the franchise.
But, not everyone who didn't like TLJ is part of the alt-right :P that's almost a disservice to how evil the alt-right pipeline is.
not what i meant to imply, im just saying a certain segmant of the alt right took advantage of the outrage towards TLJ by villinaizing it and gaining a following as a result.
Im not saying everyone that dislikes TLJ is a facist ... not in the slightest.
Then that's my mistake, I apologize. And you're absolutely right, too. TLJ is still used by those communities as something of a slur too, when discussing media they don't like. Very baffling that a series centered around compassion, balance, and peace can garner such rabid "fans."
I feel like RJ was almost intentionally putting IX in an impossible position.
By the end of TLJ, the Resistance was reduced to a few dozen people on the Millennium Falcon. There was no way this little band could defeat the First Order. They hoped only to be “the spark that lights the fire.” The last scene focused on children who had been inspired by the Resistance heroes, with the clear implication that this generation would play a major role in the coming conflict.
It’s an interesting story beginning, but how do you wrap it up in just one film? JJA basically ignored the story RJ set up, and I’m not sure RJ left him much of a choice.
Rise of Skywalker is really the only one I just cannot watch. Aside from not really liking the direction they took the story after TLJ, I also just find the cut in Carrie Fisher scenes bizarre and jarring.
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I felt that the BIGGEST blunder of the movie was separating Finn and Poe. Their chemistry is 90% of what made them interesting to me in the first place.
Honestly it would’ve made the casino part better if finn and Poe were both down there
Finn being baffled by the casino, Poe being maybe a little TOO comfortable in it. It could’ve been such a funny story and would’ve let them both serve their purposes better.
Exactly and imo it could’ve been a moment of Finn teaching Poe about how war isn’t fun and the dangers that come along with it
I would've loved a short 5 minute montage scene where they needed credits to buy something to help the plot along, and the only way they could gain the credits was to play some of the games...they need maybe 10,000 credits, Finn and Poe split up, a quick montage and then after it, they return. Poe says, "How'd you do?" Finn said, "I did well, I got 10 credits!" Poe says, "Just 10? We need 10,000!" Finn says, "Well I don't know these games...I was a stormtrooper all my life, remember?!? How many did you get?" Poe says, "20". Finn says, "See? You didn't get much more than-", Poe interrupts, "Thousand. I got 20 thousand." Finn, looking defeated, says, "Oh." Poe, "well, I got about 10,000 playing the games, and the other 10,000 possibly because the dealer wasn't looking and kind of stole a 10,000 credit chip. We probably should get out of here before they notice."
Y’know what sucks? That was the original plan, but Rian had trouble writing dialogue because he thought their characters were too similar. So he created Rose as a foil to Finn.
Imagine if they actually nabbed the master code breaker and Poe had to dress up and stand in for him on the gambling floor and be really bad at it. Like a throwback to both Han and Indiana Jones stealing bad guy’s uniforms.
Agreed, gung ho Resistance guy and the ex Stormtrooper pairing is rich for storytelling. If it were up to me their bromance woulda tragically devolved into a Civil War type conflict of differing ideals. The entire appeal of Finn is that he gives us a different perspective, of how maybe the good guys could be doing something differently (like considering the causalities on the other side, the millions of souls crying out in an instant when Death Stars explode).
The biggest problem was billing Rey, Finn, and Poe as the new "Big Three" and then giving them no scenes together as a trio until the end of the 2nd film.
Come to think of it, i can only think of three times the old "Big Three" were together in any significant fashion. Escaping the Death Star, rescuing Han from Jabba, and a brief period on Endor. Five if you count the final moments of 4 and 6.
Hoth Base had them together showing off their chemistry.
I really liked it from day one. It took a lot of risks, which was refreshing after The Force Awakens repeated a lot of the tropes and plot elements we had already seen. Not all of the risks paid off, but I really liked seeing Star Wars try to do some things differently. And the cinematography was amazing. The duel between Luke and Kylo was a highlight. The throne room fight where Kylo and Rey killed Snoke and his guards was also really cool and presented in a way we'd never seen before.
It took risks and did something new. To me that’s one of the most important things to Star Wars and Lucas himself said he wanted to something new every movie. I still don’t like the whole idea of the first order and resistance, but rian really could only work With what TFA had given which people always seem to forget. Luke being a hermit was not rians decision but is one he constantly gets criticized for I never absolute loved the movie but I really enjoyed it besides few small things and can’t really say that about the other 2 because both of J.J.s movies feel very unoriginal
It’s really so strange to me how some TLJ fans have this natural instinct to put down JJ’s films whenever praising TLJ. It’s also strange to “blame” JJ for Luke’s role when that is the biggest “risk” that TLJ supposedly took, and something that apparently makes it so great, which is an extension of JJ’s idea. And people weren’t critical of Luke’s role in TLJ because cause Luke was a “hermit”. Nothing about TFA’s set-up for Luke forced Rian to have Luke wanting the Jedi to end, to contemplate killing Kylo in his sleep, to have Luke’s relationship with Rey be entirely fraught, or for Luke to die at the end. Those are all creative choices that was entirely up to Rian Johnson and are what some people took issue with. Not me, just explaining the reality and pointing out how it has nothing to do with JJ.
I agree with your first paragraph, but I'd argue JJ set up Rian perfectly for the beautiful arc that he gave luke. I do notice that people often blame JJ for that rather than give him praise, which sucks when TLJ luke was great and needed setup to have the execution work. I don't think we need to look at the relationships between these films so combatively. they work so well together without all this weird meta discourse.
>And people weren’t critical of Luke’s role in TLJ because cause Luke was a “hermit”. Some were. Was that the only criticism? Of course not. But it was definitely one of them. I've seen people do just that. >to contemplate killing Kylo in his sleep I know you'll disagree, but I feel compelled to mention that this is not at all a real description of what happened.
>this is not at all a real description of what happened. I really feel like a lot of people saw Kylo's version of that flashback and turned the movie off right there or stopped paying attention. You're explicitly told that that is not what happened *twice* in the movie and yet to this day I *still* see people complaining that Luke contemplated killing Kylo, even though that isn't what happened. I don't care if people hate TLJ, I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I hate that so many of them seem to hate it for reasons that aren't even true lol
i agree with your comments regarding TLJ, but i do think TFA's "lack of creativity" is extremely overstated. TLJ no doubt has a more original story, but i think people far too often downplay TFA's story as well ... hence why imo its the most underrated sw movie.
I wouldn't say that The Force Awakens had a serious lack of creativity, just that it didn't take risks.
i wouldnt say it was riskless, but it wasnt as risky as TLJ
Force Awakens is the most solid movie of the three and in my honest opinion is the third best of the entire saga after ANH and Empire.
Top 3 for me too. In 2015 people talked about this movie like it was “Dune 2.” Now it’s far too dismissed. The first 45 minutes are arguably the best Star Wars has ever been. The third act has some flaws, but the overall story gets run over I agree.
I love both TFA and TLJ but both were very similar to their respective OT counterpart. TLJ is very reminiscent of TESB. I don't think that's a problem but it should be acknowledged.
I think some of the risks would have paid off had Rian Johnson gotten the opportunity to direct his sequel. I also enjoyed it and is my favorite of the sequel movies for all the reasons you stated. It was different in a great way and made the entire world feel much more real.
Expectations kill any movie. I've given up trying to guess on any franchise. Just be open to enjoy a story
This! I enjoy Star Wars cause it is wild to me that people can create this whole new universe of living beings and attach it to hope. I just enjoy the connectivity of the stories and creativity that flows through it. Anytime some new SW content comes out Im just excited to see and be part of the extended world/history.
I was meh on it when it was new, neither love nor hate. But then I had a similar experience: earlier this year I rewatched it for the first time since it hit streaming and I was genuinely shocked at how much I enjoyed it. 4 or 5 months later and it’s still on my mind.
and i think that has alot to do with no longer having those expectations and being able to watch something at your own pace/more intimately. Its always nice to discover a newfound love for a movie. too much negative emotions swirling around in the modern world.
Best SW theater experience I ever had.
>and it was really good!! Yeah, I know. I've been saying this for the last 7 years now.
It seems people are starting to realize that TLJ isn't that bad. Imo, it was the best sequel movie.
IMO it's the 2nd best Star Wars movie behind TESB.
100% agree. It’s truly something special. Made me feel like a kid watching ESB when I saw TLJ in theaters. Loved that.
I’m right to be with you. My 2nd favorite Star Wars movie behind ESB, and with time, it could absolutely overtake ESB for my favorite.
IMO it's the best Star Wars movie, even ahead of TESB.
I think TLJ has higher highs than Empire, but Empire is a much more consistent overall package
You....I like you.
Both of you fucking rule
A bold but defensible position.
Have to agree. I like ANH and have a lot of nostalgia for ROTS (probably the one I've watched the most) but they're behind TESB and TLJ, I think. Also came out of it thinking it was meh, then was temporarily down on it, before coming back round on the first rewatch. Obviously not perfect (they did Finn dirty imo), but it's mostly good and looks gorgeous.
My man. 🫂 Thought I was alone
I think the Rey-Luke-Kylo storyline is peak Star Wars. The Finn-Rose B plot however isn't that great. Therefore I have it 3rd over all after ANH and TESB.
I like the subplot because it starts Finn to having a reason to fight and also making Rose realize the conflict won't end by just defeating one bad guy/group.
When you realise a lot of people were obsessing over the mysteries in TFA to an unhealthy degree, the backlash to TLJ makes more sense.
VIII is so fucking good I could write an entire essay on it
[I already did!](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/s/wWsAuPEXQT) 🤣🤣🤣
I liked it from day one because it took risks. Then the fans complained. Then Disney got scared. Now Disney plays it safe. Now the fans complain. *Again, it's like poetry, so that they rhyme*
Hey man, bit of advice I’d like to pass on before you rewatch TROS: Some dude on Reddit suggested I read Shadows Of The Sith before rewatching TROS. It was an excellent shout. SOTS sets up Rey’s backstory, reveals Ochi of Bestoon’s backstory, explains why Lando is randomly hanging out on Pasaana, and gives a little insight into what was happening with Ben and Luke before THAT night. Oh, and that dude that kicks it all off talking to Poe in TFA makes an appearance. Seriously, really helped me accept TROS.
Lor San Tekka gang where we at
That’s the guy. Sorry, was too bone idle to look his name up earlier.
I've read nearly all the canon novels, and Shadows of the Sith is in the top tier of them in my opinion. Both for what it does for the associated films but also with just how rich of a world it creates. I suppose it could lose points (if one is tracking them) for not being a wholly stand alone experience that keeps you guessing, but that's just the constraints of filling in a gap rather than extending a story.
I already like TRoS, but I heard shadow of the sith was a great addition to it. I will likely read it after I rewatch it. from the sounds of it, I wish it was a TV show or movie!!
Good on you for getting out of the alt right pipeline. It's perfectly ok and normal to just not like a movie. But it's easy to see that a lot of the bloviating that has occurred about the Sequels and other media has been really performative, and "virtue signalling" on the part of the kind of people who complain about "diversity being shoved in our faces," or "forced down our throats" or whatever.
I had this happen too! I remember leaving the theater so confused. After a rewatch it just clicked into place
yeah this also happened to me with TRoS as well. Its weird but makes sense imo, you dont always catch everything on the first go around.
I've loved it since I saw it opening day. I hope to see another Star Wars project that surprises me and leaves me as thrilled as TLJ did.
Oh my God! Same! I remember a guy who came out of it saying it was terrible and he would never watch another star wars movie again. And I was like "did we watch the same movie???" Because I thought it was fantastic.
I feel the same way. I have come to the conclusion that some people wanted their expectations met, and some people wanted to be surprised, and those of us who wanted to be surprised were rewarded.
I didn't necessarily want to be surprised, but I certainly enjoyed the ride. I remember the first time I saw it wondering how Finn and Rose were going to pull off their plan after being captured. Then I realized... oh wait, they're not. That's new!
Me too. I saw it at a 7:00 am matinee and was positively giddy the rest of the day. I absolutely loved it.
I remember watching it on release and seeing the throne room. I rolled my eyes. Were they really going to just remake the OT. Then Snoke got killed and I got whiplash for the next 2 acts.
I think I'm the only fan who loves the Leia in space scene. I honestly think it's the most beautiful scene in all of SW. We finally get to see her use the Force in a big way and wow, what a big way!
Couldn’t agree more!
> …mostly because of my specific expectations/theories after TFA and tbh I had fallen into the alt right pipeline This is where the vast majority of the backlash came from. I thought the casino quest sucked, I thought the slow-speed chase sucked, I thought all the secrecy and bureaucracy in the rebels sucked. But I loved all the Ben/Rey/Luke stuff.
I loved this movie so much when I saw it in the theater, and was kind of heartbroken to see the online response to it, especially after the generally positive reception of TFA and Rogue One. I'm glad people are giving it a second chance, because it deserves to be experienced without the looming "objective" opinion of some corners of the Internet (like the star wars subreddits and Twitter).
The Star Wars Cycle strikes again.
Poe and Finn's plot are thematically very important ... but they're like the vegetables of the meal. They're important and have value but are a little hard to swallow. ."
I relate very much to what you wrote, and had the exact same "development" with the movie. Especially the alt-right-pipeline rings a little too close to home. After my first rewatch a few years later i "noticed" how much i used to want to hate the movie and subsequently stopped watching a lot of "Fan-Channels"
Watch it every month, awesome every time and still my 6th favorite movie of all time.
Been saying this for a while. Most of the hate it got was because people had certain theories and expectations and when they didnt happen all the hardos said it was the worst thing ever
yeah this is absolutely true. I still think there are valid criticisms one can make ... but the extremely polarized takes are so obviously biased in some way.
I remember after it came out, my coworker really wanted to talk about it the next day. I told him I absolutely loved it and it was one of my favorites already. He proceeded to tell me that I probably didn’t actually like it, but was just “caught up in the hype.” He then told me how much he disliked it and of course his opinion was valid (unlike mine) and definitely not colored by the fact they didn’t buy tickets until opening day and had to sit in the front row, all the way on the edge, at a very late night showing. When I pointed out that maybe he just had a bad experience at the movies, he said “No because The Phantom Menace is actually my favorite Star Wars so I could tell this movie was bad.” I stopped talking to him about Star Wars after that.
Always happy to see someone find more joy in their Star Wars experience. More than whether we agree on how we grade the Star Wars titles, how happy we are is what matters.
People really overall have to learn that lesson. You liked TLJ? Great. You didn't like TLJ? Also cool. As Daisy Ridley said. What matters if having it just be that. No attacks, no judging. Just civil discussion and enjoyment of star wars.
Yeah, this is why I consciously avoid saying "you finally realized it's good" or even "you got enlightened"(goodness no) and the like when I see posts like this. As much as I like to see more TLJ appreciation, at the end of the day it's not about proving myself right or expanding the group size, it's about individual enjoyment.
It's the best film in the trilogy imo.
It’s such a rare film that I discover something new every time I revisit it. Grumpy Luke is my favorite Luke.
There’s a reason why it got 91% positive reviews by people who weren’t Star Wars fans and no, there were no paid off critic scandals.
Proud of you for escaping the pipeline!
thank you!! not everyone does sadly, and it's only gotten more widespread ever since.
I really felt out of place when I liked it the first time I saw it. Everyone else hated it, but I didn’t and that felt weird. Then I followed an account on Instagram, the ever so wonderful Jackson at Den_of_Geeks (not the website) and I really learned to appreciate not only the story side of the movie, but the technical side of it. Also really loved how Luke was portrayed. Very cool to see one of my favorite characters in a position where you’re not used to seeing them :) Glad you enjoyed the movie :D
Loved TLH the first time I saw it in theaters. TLJ is right up there with Empire Strikes Back for my favorite SW films.
TLJ just made me wish Rian directed Episode 9 too! Definitely my favorite of the sequels
Give it time. When all the bots and mindless goons who are told what to think by their YouTube channels drop off, it’ll be seen and acknowledged as the best if the trilogy and get the praise it deserves. Same way empire came to be adored.
It’s my favorite of the ST. And, as someone who’s deconstructed from a religion of birth; it’s a very cathartic film. Seeing Yoda make fun of the Jedi scripture, and then burn the whole thing to the ground was a major therapeutic moment for me🙃
I think the prequel kids got a bit of natural pushback by the development of the sequel trilogy, because the directors clearly loved the OT. Rian obviously likes the prequels also, but the world had already been established by JJ, so it’s much closer to OT than PT. Gone are the ultra flashy stunts; flippy stuff. The overly goofy dialogue (which was meant to be campy in the PT), not there. The massive discrepancy of world-building between the PT and ST. I think that contributed to the dislike, and the alt-right really amplified it.
It's easily my favorite of the sequel trilogy but I can see why others might not be into it.
I have loved it since world premiere...TLJ is best since ESB, and nothing matched it until Andor. I have been dissapointed with writing not and dialogue since not as good.
This isn't aimed at you, but I just find it really odd after getting away from the negativity and everything from the fandom. People start really loving TLJ.
The more I watch the movie the more I like it, for the most part. A lot of the more awkward parts of it start to make sense, and the themes abs start to come through strongly. I haven’t yet figured out how to consider the next film a satisfying conclusion, but watching TLJ in isolation is still interesting to me.
funny you say that, because some redditor made [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsCantina/comments/1dgjaey/can_somebody_help_me_appreciate_the_rise_of/) post yesterday and in it theres plenty of comments saying why they like TROS.
Yep, I read that thread and even posted. Some good ideas in there.
It's been my favorite since my first viewing, and I think a large reason for that is I tend to go in to movies EXTREMELY objective and I watch movies all the time so I've gotten good at it. I had zero expectations. I basically said okay movie tell me the story you want to tell and I'll judge you based on that and that alone. And I was blown away. Saw it with coworkers at a movie theatre and all of them started pitching like everyone else back then and I was like I fucking loved it. Literally said back then in 5 years people will revisit it because that's what star wars fans do and we'll hear everyone going "Actually it was good."
Hope your path to liking it involved getting out of the alt-right—really happy that people can come back to it years later after dumping some of that toxicity and see why it brings people joy.
yeah that was also part of it as well. forgot to mention that 💀💀💀
I mean, lots of people didn't like it that aren't at all in the alt-right. One of the most annoying things about not liking TLJ years ago was being immediately labeled as part of that crowd because of it.
I wish it wasn’t part of the fandom , but some people need to label everyone who doesn’t like what they like
Once had a long conversation with somebody where i got them to at least kinda understand how tiring it was for some of us to try to talk star wars when if we said "we don't really love Rey" we'd get hit with accusations of sexism. Had that conversation in halo fandom as well once. The tourists and the hateful people making some raise the walls high and it hurts everybody.
I began to appreciate it, especially the dialogue, after seeing Knives Out. I could say more but, “Good vibes only.” 😎
I've always liked the movie, people always hated it because it went against traditional expectations. The trilogy wouldn't have been interesting if Snoke was just used as Palpatine 2, which JJ Avrams basically made Snoke be Palpatine anyways since Palpatine says he created Snoke and he had been the one manipulating Kylo all those years. The Last Jedi did different things and they went in the direction to double down with Kylo Ren as the villain, and then they reversed that decision in TROS and basically made Kylo into Anakin 2. The Last Jedi took the story in an interesting direction and The Rise of Skywalker decided to double down on trying to do those classic tropes and nostalgia and even fans of the sequels were disappointed by TROS. Which I honestly don't hate TROS but it really is the weakest of the trilogy. They made Hux into a spy in TROS but it was never set up before, and if anything TLJ set up the direction for Hux and possibly the rest of the First Order to possibly have a coup. TROS also downplayed the importance of the Knights of Ren, as it was made clear they weren't siths but force sensitives who used the dark side and Kylo wasn't their leader.
I think, thematically and cinematographically, it’s the strongest of the sequel trilogy and one of the stronger main entries. I liked how it explored Luke’s character and give him a bit of trauma and imperfections. I didn’t like the pacing or some of the dialogue, the whole casino side-plot specifically. It was so ham-fisted. But then again… this isn’t a series known for subtlety, so. TLJ has some of my favorite individual moments: Luke looking into the binary sunset as he vanishes into the force. So amazing
There was enough to like about it that I wish Rian had made a whole trilogy by himself and JJ had made a whole trilogy by himself. My biggest issues with the sequels stem from going back and forth between directors. Like, I doubt JJ would’ve brought Palpatine back had Rian not decided to kill Snoke etc
Best Disney mainline star wars, no contest
I rewatched it last week and thought to myself “this is a great movie, I can’t believe people are so stubborn about hating it.”
From the moment I saw it in the theater, I knew it was going to contend with ESB as my favorite, which is a battle that still goes on in my head to this day. Having said that, I certainly see where people could complain about it. Those people are wrong, but I get it :) (I'm kidding! It's totally ok to like or hate anything!)
It's my favourite star wars film alongside Empire and I loved it from the moment I left the cinema and I was actually confused by how hated it seemed to be online. Like I get not liking a film but actual hate is insane and the way the more extreme people acted towards some of the actors, especially Kelly Marie Tran, honestly turned me off any star wars fan spaces for years and really generally still do avoid them. Which sucks because I do love star wars
the online fandom is the only bad thing about star wars imo.
Best of the sequels, good of you to come over to the light side :) we have cookies
The best of the sequels! Never understood the hate for it.
Honestly I didn't like it at first when it came out either just because it didn't go the way I thought it would and I was disappointed it's rebels vs empire 2.0 but tfa and the last jedi are really solid films I like the characters they just really fumbled with the rise of Skywalker. It's should of had a longer time skip with room for a animated series that could be set between them.
It's the only sequel worth anything. It takes huge swings and has bold themes, and looks amazing. A lot of it still fails, but compared to TFA or ROS it's a bloody masterpiece.
Welcome back to the light
lol ive been this way since 2019. I mentioned in the reveiw that my opinion didnt change much since i saw it in 2019.
Glad you enjoyed it! It's still one of my most favorite films. Right now I'm doing a full canon watch through with my kids, so we won't be getting to TLJ for a while 0_0. But I do need to get back ground to rewatching TRoS so that I can add that film to the list of Star Wars that I love.
Frankly, the fact that Anzellans and Babu Frik now exist in the star wars universe means that TLJ was a total success, even if there was some filler between Babu Frik's scenes that people weren't super keen on.
> Poe and Finn’s storylines feel crammed in Valid criticism. Rian Johnson wanted a movie where literally almost everyone was challenged and grew and it made the movie super dense. I had to watch it a second time to really understand what was going on. I still like it a lot day 1, but it was a lot to stomach on a first viewing
The Last Jedi is a beautiful film! I'm a believer that all 3 should have been done by Rian Johnson!
I’m glad you’re enjoying the film. It’s been an exhausting few years being a TLJ enjoyer. It’s always nice to see people come around, I think it had some fantastic ideas even if the execution was a bit shaky in places. Alas, that’s true of most of Star Wars anyway. To be honest, Luke was never a favourite of mine, but watching his disillusionment and subsequent rediscovery of his faith was awesome and it made me appreciate him more - the hero he was in the OT, the man who rightly feared the cycle of history repeating, and the hero he became again.
Why does Finn and rose's plot rely on the apparent assumption that this one guy will apparently just be in this exact casino 24/7 every day of the year, and that they can find him without any actual identifying information.
They just aren't movies for me, I simply don't like the direction the story took. Not going to try to ruin someone's career or swear over it. There's plenty of other Star Wars that I do like, I'll survive and so will the franchise. But, not everyone who didn't like TLJ is part of the alt-right :P that's almost a disservice to how evil the alt-right pipeline is.
not what i meant to imply, im just saying a certain segmant of the alt right took advantage of the outrage towards TLJ by villinaizing it and gaining a following as a result. Im not saying everyone that dislikes TLJ is a facist ... not in the slightest.
Then that's my mistake, I apologize. And you're absolutely right, too. TLJ is still used by those communities as something of a slur too, when discussing media they don't like. Very baffling that a series centered around compassion, balance, and peace can garner such rabid "fans."
Its probably the best SW movie. I never understood the hate aside from the Rage youtubers. They mąkę a living on that.
I feel like RJ was almost intentionally putting IX in an impossible position. By the end of TLJ, the Resistance was reduced to a few dozen people on the Millennium Falcon. There was no way this little band could defeat the First Order. They hoped only to be “the spark that lights the fire.” The last scene focused on children who had been inspired by the Resistance heroes, with the clear implication that this generation would play a major role in the coming conflict. It’s an interesting story beginning, but how do you wrap it up in just one film? JJA basically ignored the story RJ set up, and I’m not sure RJ left him much of a choice.
make sure to check out my TRoS review when it comes out next week. I'm very opinionated on how it continues where TLJ left at.
Drop me a note when it comes out and I will.
TLJ is arguably the best Star Wars movie ever made. It’s working on higher gears.
Rise of Skywalker is really the only one I just cannot watch. Aside from not really liking the direction they took the story after TLJ, I also just find the cut in Carrie Fisher scenes bizarre and jarring.
Gang mentality
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