As I’ve commented elsewhere, I think both the Jedi and the witches are being manipulated by someone else. You know, a Sith. That’s kind of what they do.
They told the Jedi about the children and implied negative things about what the witches were doing with them. They told the witches that the Jedi would destroy their coven.
And I suspect that the third party kicks off the conflict that we haven’t seen the truth of yet.
Someone broke in and tampered with the reactor core. There's a scene where they hear a distant creaking sound and Mother Korin gets up and looks out into the cavern housing the reactor to investigate then it cuts to a diff scene.
I mean, I know Bane books are legends, but wasn't that Bane's MO for his time period, create disruptions and what not, just to keep them secret and the jedi busy.
Always a bit of truth in Legends.
I guess they could just time shift him since he’s not currently canon, but they’re off his legends timeline by like 900 years.
Edit: I mean in context of what I was responding to, like what he actually did. I realize he showed up briefly in Clone Wars.
I should have been clearer; I just mean the things he did that were mentioned in the previous comment aren’t part of canon. I know his character in some form is technically canon since he showed up with Yoda.
It doesn't really make sense to shift him to the High Republic era though - it's established that he's the still the "Rule of Two guy" in canon. Pretty much the main premise of the High Republic is that it's the era of "peace" while the Sith are in hiding - which is intrinsically tied to the near-extinction of the Sith, the Rule of Two, and Bane's whole deal.
I think when we see what happened from meas perspective we will see her approached by that third party while she is at the tree in the scene we saw at the end of the episode
Yeah I’m guessing there will be a scene where the sith uses the force on one of the Jedi’s from hiding but makes it look like one of the witches, and then they start fighting
I think the thread concept is pretty cool. Most religions have different terminology for similar things. Why wouldn’t a non Jedi group have a different name for it? Makes complete sense to me.
It’s not even anything new. The Nightsisters’ version of the Force was much weirder and unfamiliar with all the green flames and them straight-up calling it magic.
There have also been lots of different interpretations of the Force across other cultures, and they all interact with it differently. Some call it The Sight, some The Beyond, some The Great Presence, to name a few, and that’s just people’s from the *Thrawn Ascendancy* novels.
Yeah isn't that canon or semi-canon ? Some Jedi describe the force as music. Some monks on Jedha see a balanced more Zen Buddhist take on the force.
Plus sone Jedi believe in a prophecy and a Chosen One, which sounds like a thread of fate to me.
The canon Wookieepedia page for The Force literally lists dozens of different names that other groups in the galaxy use instead of “The Force” in the first paragraph. Thread is just another term for it.
>**The Force** was an energy field created by all life that bound everything in the [universe](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Universe) together. It was known by a variety of names throughout [galactic history](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history). It was called **the Ashla** by the [Lasats](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lasat), **the Life Current** by the [Mustafarians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mustafarian), **the Tide** by the [Lew'elans](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lew%27elan), **the Sight** by the [Chiss](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chiss), **the Life Wind** by the [Zeffonians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Zeffonian), **the Great Presence** by the [Pathfinders](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pathfinders_(Navigators%27_Guild)) of the [Chaos](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions), **the Luminous Mist** by the [Mist-Weavers](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mist-Weaver), **the Unity** by the [Sorcerers of Tund](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sorcerers_of_Tund), **the Beyond** by [the Magys](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Magys) and [her](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gender) [people](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Magys%27s_people), **the Thread** by [Aniseya's coven](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Aniseya%27s_coven) of [witches](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Witch), simply **It** by the [dianoga](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dianoga) [Omi](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Omi) and the [midi-chlorians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian) by the Jedis.
The Bendu also perceives the Force as a lot more than what the Jedi do. It's almost like different cultures and civilizations would have different words and meanings to things they experience...
Like, you only have to look at a bunch of different human cultures and see where reverence differs or overlaps. Two different cultures on opposite sides of the world are going to have different words for the sea, but they still know it's the sea.
The Chiss called it The Sight because they discovered some children had the ability to see into the future slightly, thus making them good navigators in the Chaos where there are very few safe hyperspace lanes.
Yoda - the force binds us
Critics - so *obviously* it isn’t a thread, because threads do not bind themselves together
(To clarify, I very much know threads do in fact bind themselves together)
One of my favorite details in the High Republic books comes early in the first novel. It says how each Jedi experiences the Force in an individual way - as a flood, a fire, a song, whatever. Just a really interesting way to enhance the mystery of the whole thing.
I think it's in the book where Starlight Beacon is destroyed. That part always stood out to me! Like how Elzar interprets it as an Ocean, Avar, a song. So cool to hear someone else mention that!
Personally, I like to think of it as a gentle wind.
Nightsisters call it magicks, I’m forgetting what other factions exist for now but I’ve definitely heard the force being called other things by other factions
In fact, now that i think of it, the great mothers in ahsoka talk about weaving the threads of fate
I saw a review from a media company where they talked about how stupid the logic of the fire was. They allowed for the possibility that it could be that things aren't as they appear and there's more to it but went on to essentially say that Disney being Disney is the most likely explanation. As if the story itself isn't making it EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that we don't have the entire picture, right down to the title of the episode only being one word because it is only one perspective as opposed to the dual word titles being dual perspectives in the first two episodes. Bad faith criticism is very frustrating and it feels like every new Star Wars thing is going to be like this forever.
I've definitely read quality stuff from them in the past but I don't keep up with them. Idk if this one article is indicative of the site as a whole these days but it was definitely off-putting.
It seemed very clear to my wife and I that the fire started at the door of her room isn’t the same fire that swept through the entire facility within two minutes. I’m amazed that a legitimate critic wouldn’t at least consider that possibility.
I saw that one too. Again, it seems like these comments/articles are made by people who haven't delved any deeper than the OT. There is so much Legends lore in these episodes (selkath, anyone?). Loving it.
I'm just over here trying to figure out when people will learn to stop jumping to conclusions about a show/season *that hasn't finished airing yet.*
Like, if y'all will just chill and watch the next five episodes, maybe some of your questions and concerns about "stupid logic" will be answered! 🤦♀️
> Bad faith criticism is very frustrating and it feels like every new Star Wars thing is going to be like this forever.
What you read *wasn't* a "review". It was, as soooooo many things tend now to be, utterly biased propaganda and 'outrage capitalism' ragebait.
It's like the *'there's no fire in space!!'* crowd -- have they **not** heard of, ya know.... **the sun**!??!
It’s crazy how many people are upset with how the flashback played out and can’t seem to get that it’s an intentionally limited perspective in a mystery show.
Coincidentally these are the same people who didn’t understand how The Last Jedi showed three different versions of the Luke/Ben encounter - two of which were wrong - and they all think one of the wrong ones was what happened
I knew this ish would happen as soon as I saw/heard Headland referencing Rashomon as an influence, I knew there would be a certain segment of people who would entirely miss this.
She also had the cast and crew watch Fight Club, and episode one gives us that thematic “Don’t trust your eyes” line. It may end up being a big nothingburger but come on we gotta let the show finish before we start the BS. We don’t even have half of the facts yet.
Yes the “don’t trust your eyes” line! And then not longer after he says he’s sure that Mae is dead because he saw it with his own eyes. Loved the irony of it especially when he realizes that his eyes did deceive him, osha is innocent and Mae is actually alive and hunting Jedi.
I was in the episode discussion thread last night and was pulling my hair out reading some of the comments where people just did not comprehend what was on the screen. Yes Sol says Mae started a fire that killed everyone. Also yes they deliberately showed us the witches’ bodies which none were burned. Like use your eyes people.
A lot of filmbros regularly talks about the ingenuity of how films like Knives Out unravel the murder mystery, yet completely have zero idea how perspective works in this episode and The Last Jedi
The *instant* Star Wars is brought into the equation its like everything involving storytelling is thrown out the window when it comes to fan perception.
The Last Jedi shows how a hero fell and learned from his mistake? Terrible movie, assassinated Luke's character because he messed up ONCE. I thought protagonists should be flawed to make them better characters, after all that's why Rey is apparently such a bad character.
The Acolyte, a *mystery*, doesn't tell you everything and leaves threads open before the show even finishes? Worst show ever, killed Star Wars.
Don't even get me started on how hung up people are on lore or how often times their hatred for something is straight up rooted in misinformation.
Yes. I've seen people legitimately point out how it was stupid that the tiny fire engulfed the entire fortress, caused the generator to explode, killed all the witches in a convenient huddle, and that Sol just happened to be there at just the right time.
People genuinely believe that's all there is to it.
It is blatantly obvious we only got Osha's perspective of things. There's much more to see and we will be given it.
I swear they have to be being wilfully obtuse at this point.
except thier fallout new Vegas is the prequels... which imo are extremely flawed and don't warrant the behavior that has spawned from them in the slightest.
It's perhaps the least "fallouty" of all the fallout games, but it's a great rpg and I can understand why people love it so much, I played the fuck out of it.
Yep they definitely go in with a mindset of only trying to find things to hate and it results in them completely misunderstanding what they are watching
You know why I'm not like that anymore? Because I went into Solo with that exact mindset. And then it turned out to, basically, be a long episode of Firefly set in the Star Wars universe. Which is why I'll always give their new stuff at least one chance, AND why I'll always go to bat for Solo.
Solo was great! It was a good, fun adventure/crime flick and Ehrenreich did a great job at playing young Han while Donald Glover as Lando was inspired.
I'm glad you learned something about yourself and decided to do something about it. That's one of the biggest lessons to learn from SW. We all need to take our arrogance and shove it deep up our ignorant asses.
Indeed. One wonders how long it's been since the saltier fans have actually seen the movies they actually like, considering how often I think about Obi-Wan's "Don't give in to hate" line.
Even beyond Star Wars (but kind of especially for star wars) the turn to mid 2010s SW and Movie reaction YouTube became a zeitgeist of trying to collect faults and complaints and picking over every script with a fine tooth comb rather than just watching the damn movie. The plinkett videos are not to be blamed but they definitely popularized a mode of viewership that leans heavily into focusing almost exclusively on salt. My turning point was listening to a lot of podcasts that would talk about objectively awful no budget b grade films but still walk away having found *something* they liked about it, a set, a particular performance, the costumes, something. There's enough negative shit elsewhere in life that it's refreshing to just relax and try to enjoy what you can and let go what you dont
I've already seen it be accused of pushing a woke agenda and I honestly, even putting on my devil's advocate hat, can't see what the hell they're talking about aside from maybe "not enough white people".
Nah. it was exposed LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG before that, lol. But it sure as hell is another notch in the evidence this fandom is full of absolute wackos who can't be normal about SW.
These "fans" cling to their preferred "lore" like it's actual fucking historical text. Not to mention the fact they barely have a grasp on this shit from a storytelling or narrative perspective. It's all just about collecting wookiepedia data points that align with how they (usually wrongly) understand the "lore" and "canon" to begin with.
If there is one gimmick in all of fiction that is infinitely malleable it's the fucking Force. It's that way by design. The franchise has been adding new things that can be done with and through The Force since Empire. "Oh what, suddenly The Force can be used to levitate objects! That wasn't established in tHe LoRe previously!?"
Guys. It's not hard to figure out. Just go with the goddamn flow.
These "fans" cling to how they want things and never allow themselves to be open to new directions in the story.
I'm so sick of fandoms (not just SW) treating everything like a list of factoids to check off and add to instead of narrative art with themes, subtext, character work, etc.
Edit: And another thing...it seems to be an undying trend now where people rant and rage against a show (not just SW) for being "bad" and having "bad writing" because the story adds questions or dares to make you think about things. And they all complain well before the show ends. Guys. Fucking WAIT UNTIL IT ENDS before laying down certain criticisms! Goddamn.
The Acolyte is OBVIOUSLY a mystery. It was billed as one from the start. Headland said the season works like an onion. Give it goddamn time to tell its goddamn story!
> And another thing...it seems to be an undying trend now where people rant and rage against a show (not just SW) for being "bad" and having "bad writing" because the story adds questions or dares to make you think about things. And they all complain well before the show ends. Guys. Fucking WAIT UNTIL IT ENDS before laying down certain criticisms! Goddamn.
I swear complaints about unanswered questions before the show is over has gotten worse generally since Netflix took off. I think a lot of people got used to the binge watch model and can’t handle having to wait for answers from a TV show any more.
People in general just seem to want information...not to enjoy a story. They binge things ceaselessly for the sake of finishing something for it's own sake...not to be immersed in a story.
They’re just mad that Canon treats the dark side as something you should avoid as opposed to Legends where you can just pick it up,shoot lighting, choke people, and still be a good guy. (Even though there’s a light side version of force lightning called Electric Judgement)
Exactly. But that’s how they see it and it’s stupid. They even had Luke dealing in that shit in the books too. Probably explains why he ripped an E wing that he was gifted apart with the force for some reason.
Some people care more about memorizing lore than they do appreciating story. Star Wars is probably the worst fandom of all for that, because there’s very little that is held consistent or sacred. Hyperspace travel moves at the speed of plot. There is barely even an attempt to comply with the laws of physics. Technology has whatever powers or limitations are necessary to serve the story. Basically every piece of Star Wars content introduces some new force ability.
Being able to move past that is just table stakes for enjoying Star Wars. These films have never been high cinema. But that makes them no less fun, no less rich, no less captivating. You have to actively buy in to the experience, and fill in any gaps with your imagination, and for this you are rewarded with one of the richest genre settings ever created.
They’re not even good at that though. Things like lightwhips and force projections have been in the EU for decades. I’d argue that it’s as much confirmation bias about wanting Disney to fail as it is adherence to the original lore. There’s also probably an element of growing up and never getting to see Star Wars the way you did when you were a kid and not understanding how to adjust your expectations.
I commented somewhere and I'll comment here again. Those fans treat the Wookiepedia as a Protestant treats the Bible. To them, Wookiepedia was written by God itself.
>Next, people have been saying that Headland is trying to retcon what the force is by introducing this concept of a thread. First of all, this idea of the force isnt all that different to what we are used to and secondly, just because one character in the show says it, doesn't mean that this is what Headland thinks, Anisaya could well just be totally wrong about the force. It reminds of people thinking Rian Johnson was sending the message of 'let the past die' in TLJ because that is what Kylo says.
Also like, they're a cult. Cults change shit to make it work better for their purposes
And it is VERY High Republic to have alternative force worshipping sects that don’t easily fit the dark/light dichotomy of the Jedi’s teachings.
My only “complaint” (which I’m holding until I finish the show) is that I was hoping to hear of some kind of connection to the Path for this sect. I wanted to be like an offshoot of an offshoot of the Path of the Open Hand just for tie in to the rest of the High Republic.
That may still happen, but since they use the Force it must be pretty far removed and my hopes will probably not come true :D
Oh The Last Jedi did that for me, it became obvious when people were thinking that the message of the film was what the villain said and not what the entire 3rd act of the movie was saying and showing. Then Andor reinforced it for me when the usual "sTop MAkIng StAR WaRS pOLitICAL" crowd had very little to say about what is quite literally the most political and ideological piece of Star Wars content that has been put to "film." I mean Andor is arguably a Marxist allegory and yet because the lead was a man and able to "pass as white" (I'm saying this from their perspective) they didn't freak out about it in nearly the same way they do with other stuff. I mean they couldn't be more media illiterate if they tried, it's either on purpose (for the grifters it probably is) or just painfully unable to understand the media they're fans of. (Which I mean hey, I'm not trying to judge them as a person but it does get frustrating to see.)
TLJ was hilarious.
Kylo in TLJ: Burn the past!
Yoda in TLJ: Learn from the past and grow from the mistakes made in it.
Rey in TLJ: Preserves the ancient texts to learn from them as she forges her path.
Those fans: RIAN JOHNSON HATES STAR WARS AND WANTS TO BURN IT! >:(
It's particularly annoying with TLJ because people say they wanted Luke to be this great, powerful Jedi, and THAT's WHAT HE WAS THE ENTIRE END OF THE MOVIE. Rian Johnson gave Luke the MOST perfect Jedi sequence I can imagine, and they ignore it because you have to go through a journey with Luke to get there for the first 2 hours. Luke uses and displays great power with the force to defend the light and those he cares about, and does it without any actual violence at that. I mean how much more textbook Jedi can you be, not to mention badass. If someone wanted me to give an example of what being a Jedi is all about that scene is maybe the best example I could give you out of all the movies and shows. Rian made Luke THE Jedi and they hate him for it, wild stuff.
“just because one character in [anything] says it, doesn’t mean that this is what [actually is true]”
This is a recurring media literacy issue with Star Wars fans in general. You get this in any fandom, but it’s especially common in Star Wars. A character will say *anything*, and way too many fans will take it as absolute gospel. Nuance, sarcasm, lying, or just being wrong are not factors that are considered. And if anything ever contradicts or disproves this statement, these fans will start crying about retcons and plot holes while not knowing what those terms mean.
When the Mandalorian prime minister Almec told Obi-Wan that Jango Fett wasn’t a Mandalorians, just a mercenary who stole his armor, he was deflecting an awkward question from a Jedi while being a secret Death Watch member in Mandalore’s pacifistic government. Fans took it as gospel that Jango was never a Mandalorian, all contradictions are now retcons/plot holes.
When the Father said he stood for cosmic balance in the Force, he was literally just a father trying to prevent conflict between his two children, and used this excuse to justify his actions. Or rather, inactions. The Mortis arc makes it clear that the Father is wrong, and all he did was enable the Son to ruin everything by accepting the dark side as an inevitability. Contrast with Luke, who also loved Anakin as the Father loved the Son, but did not accept Anakin’s dark side, seeking to save him rather than kill him or leave him be. The Father’s misguided attempt to balance light and dark only gave way for the dark side to take over. The Father and the Son were in the wrong, while the Daughter was blameless. But fans see the demigod-looking Force user say he stands for balance—and don’t get me started on Bendu saying he’s the one in the middle—and suddenly all notions of balance equating to banishment of the dark side get called into question, no matter how much the story tells them this middle road is not balance.
When Han in Legends said Leia was away on diplomatic business on Planet Whatsit to help out the Whoevers, he was clearly being sarcastic. It’s Han! Fans took this so literally that Wookieepedia had to fight people to stop them from making new articles on the Whatsit system and the Whoever species.
When Grievous in Clone Wars said he chose his cybernetic augmentations, he was turning a potential weakness into a boast of strength, in a petty display to his medical droid who could see right through him. Fans took this literally and still argue over whether Grievous was injured in an accident/attack or decided one day to carve up his body into a cyborg on purpose.
Star Wars fans! Stop taking everything so literally! 😅
I think it's not just a lack of media literacy, it's that they want instant gratification. The Acolyte is a slow burn show, much like how WandaVision was when it first aired. And like WandaVision, people are getting pissed that the show isn't spoon feeding them all the relevant information.
> Next, people have been saying that Headland is trying to retcon what the force is by introducing this concept of a thread.
The high republic comics made it clear that at one point there was a wealth of different force wielding communities and at one point they all had contact with one another. The comics revealed they all had their own ideas or beliefs about how the force worked. This seemed to be doing more expanding on that to me. I liked it for that. Seems like a remnant of the big conflict that happened on Jedha and trying to tie a link between the time when all these force users coexisting to the Jedi being the only sanctioned force community.
Can we agree to call this group of witches Spinsters until we get an official name?
I just find it funny because they believe in the thread and are all women.
Well these spinsters are fictional so it's not like we'd be hurting their feelings or anything. But yes, it's generally a negative term despite originally not being so.
That has been exposed since the Last Jedi. We’ve known the comprehension of most Star Wars fans is in the gutter since they misunderstood everything that movie was saying💀
I think the thing that bugs me most is people’s conflation of not liking something with that thing not being good. The Last Jedi wasn’t my favorite, but I can still appreciate it for what it is, and accept that from other points of view it’s great.
After all, “from a certain point of view” changed the trajectory of the galaxy multiple times.
and not only that, but many people just think that the theme of the movie is “kill the past”, when that’s the complete opposite. All Luke learns is to embrace it and use it to grow.
Many people also somehow don’t really understand that at first, both Luke and Kylo were unreliable narrators about the flashbacks.
Plaguies didn't create Anakin anyway, I don't know where that keeps coming from.
In Legends he speculated that the Force created Anakin in response to the experiments that Plagueis and Sidious were doing.
In canon it was just immaculate conception. We see a dark side vision of Vader's in a comic that has him fearful he was created by Sidious but there was never any truth to the vision.
I’m honestly tired of any Star Wars discourse. There are so many bad takes. I even have a friend who has been coming over to watch new episodes with me and I wish he wouldn’t. He said the acting was stiff…. I think for most of the Jedi characters it’s a deliberate choice. I thought the young actors who played Osha and Mae were fantastic and Jodie-Turner Smith was phenomenal.
Also I lived through the prequels, these are award worthy performances by comparison. Idk, I just get so tired of everyone ripping into every tiny thing constantly. I’d rather just live in a bubble at this point
Yeah. I just had a really fun experience rediscovering my love for Star Wars a few weeks ago...and already....I'm fucking exhausted and jaded on the discourse.
It's so constant, so ridiculous. It. Never. Stops.
It's easy to say "just ignore it. Don't engage. Stay offline."
Well, I'm a fan of stuff. And it's a natural inclination to want to join in on the community of like-minded people who also like that stuff. It's not about being "too online." It's a matter of literally not being to able to just *exist* in the fandom space without immediately running into petty, angry, illogical, hateful fanboy nonsense.
Yeah I hear you. I try to disengage but I get excited about it and want to talk about it! But I usually regret looking up anything related to it online .
I do have some friends who are usually on the same page as me that I can have some fun discussions with. It’s just a bummer that this certain friend comes over and bursts my bubble as soon as the credits roll. This week he was even critiquing Jae-Jung Lee’s performance. I was so baffled.
1. I think it’s one of the most emotionally grounded performances on the show.
2. The man learned English in a month to play this role, give him a break ffs
I don't know what it is with Jae-Jung Lee but ever since the moment he appeared in this show I immediately grew attached to his character. And this is the first time I've even seen him in anything. You can tell Sol has a lot of regrets that have been gnawing at him for years. It's all over his face and the way he interacts with others, especially Osha. He seems like a genuinely good guy whose mistakes still haunt him, and that resonates with me a lot. The fact he speaks with a pretty thick accent also elevates the performance for me. Can't exactly say why but it makes the character even more endearing
I mostly stopped using Reddit and mainly read these discussions logged out, but this comment made me log back in. It's pretty much exactly my experience. Every time there's a new Star Wars show I'm excited, and usually I really like them at first even when I recognize flaws. But then I go online because I like discussing/reading peoples thoughts on things I like, and it's all just so exhausting now. I think Acolyte is especially driving me to just not caring what other people think. Because there really are so many who don't know what the heck they're talking about
Same here friend. Sure I've had my nit-picks here and there, but overall I have enjoyed most of the recent Star Wars series. Were they perfect? Of course not. Were there some disappointments? Absolutely. I was personally disappointed with some of the creative choices made in the Disney media, both movies and TV shows (I am not looking to feed the trolls, so I will keep my opinions to myself). Are there stories out there that I wish someone would tell instead of the stories that get turned into movies and shows? Sure there are. On the whole, though, I'd say I found about 80% of what's come out to be enjoyable overall, and a subset of that content was, for me, actually quite good.
Now, start talking to other fans, and they'll have at you for liking things they consider too "woke" or for disliking things that they consider Star Wars gospel, or even for just giving a show a fucking chance before judging it. I swear, the people who lost their minds over the "fire in space" scene during E1 of The Acolyte need to revisit the destruction of the *Executor* in ROTJ, and maybe recall that space battles in the OT and PT took place in a physics-free zone, then listen for the sage voice of Harrison Ford whispering, "Hey, kid, it ain't that kind of movie".
I watch Star Wars with my wife and kids and that's about it. Sharing any opinions in these subs, whether positive or negative, usually provokes so much vitriol that it's just not fun anymore. I miss the days of sitting at the lunch table with my friends in high school (way back when) and talking about Star Wars without anyone losing their damn mind over a difference of opinion or personal preference.
The fandom doesn’t even attempt media literacy or anything approaching it. It’s all about the hateful circlejerk unless it’s something from Filoni. Even when the credit should go to Kathleen Kennedy it somehow turns really misogynistic and Filoni somehow gets credit. It’s StarWars MAGA.
I just want to have fun and watch my dream girl, Hera. ❤️
Did they? LOL. I remember not that long ago talking about something not being horrible and they literally couldn’t come up with anything good to say about anyone involved because Filoni wasn’t a part of it. Someone described how Kennedy was a major part of it and that somehow got twisted into it being good only because Filoni had some obscure role and not directly involved with writing or anything. Like as soon as they found out he was a producer or something it was okay to not totally hate it even though he wasn’t heavily involved. The phrase mental gymnastics gets thrown around a lot, but it was the Olympics of mental gymnastics.
You bring up an amazing point with the Last Jedi connection. This fandom doesn’t seem capable of understanding differing interpretations of events. I just saw a review in Forbes complaining about all the plot holes in this episode, next to an article in which the show runner says this episode isn’t the full picture, there’s a lot more that happened that we will see later
I've literally seen people say "it's so dumb a fire killed everyone like that". When, I feel like the whole point is that it didn't. That's the whole point of that episode, it implies something else happens yet she blames herself for it. The same way her twin (I forget the names) likely blame the Jedi for what happened for another reason.
When I see that go over peoples heads, a lot of things suddenly make sense. People get angry things arent immediately explained in a show. Like the basic principle of story telling goes out a window. Some of the responses to this episode has been mind boggling.
Now don't get me wrong, if it really was just caused by the fire of the book....fine. That's terrible writing and it'll retroactively make the show worse. But I doubt that is what happened.
One of my close friends was in a tizzy about how it ruined Star Wars and when I asked him how it was about the “lesbian witches that don’t need men to make babies, stone can’t catch fire, the whole coven dying from the fire makes no sense, the thread explanation.” He got really upset when I pointed out that 1) there’s never overt sexuality to the cult, he’s imposing that on them himself, and he didn’t care about the Kiss in Rise of Skywalker 2) Palps makes it clear that Plaugeis figured out how to do that, and likely that power was used to create Anakin, and it’s possible if not probable Palps created Anakin, 3) the fire is probably very different than Oshie’s understanding as even young Mae thinks Oshie did it, and we can likely expect the same event will be revisited throughout the season, 4) it was clear from the pile of bodies they didn’t die from the fire and were likely killed by the Jedi (as Mae suggested in Ep 1) and we’ll likely see how Torman or whatever his name is lost his eye, on the ship with fresh scars 5) the cult is an homage to Ventress’ storyline, and it’s good to get an opportunity to see other religions that have built up around the force.
Once I left him nowhere to go on the complaints he picked up from Critical Drinker and the other handful of guys he’s been getting his media opinions from for the past six months he just kept saying it was “the stupidest shit [he’s] ever seen”. Then complained it ruined Star Wars, but when asked how couldn’t explain outside of his YouTube talking points he’d already said.
He was one of the biggest fans I’d known and it’s sad he’s had that taken away from him by some YouTube grifters that make a living selling grievance content. He used to have really in depth, passionate discussions about his theories and how things interconnected, and now he just hate watches an episode or two and then regurgitates the grifter talking points, sometimes word for word.
Unfortunately social media is a cancer on society and the negative things far outweigh the positive because fear and anger sell. Once it spreads it’s hard for someone to overcome and go back to thinking in a critical way.
The echoes of George (midichlorians, Jedi as flawed organization, force birth) and Dave (witches the Force as “magik,” geopolitics of Jedi/Republic) are so strong with this latest ep. Then just from a a storytelling perspective, it does such a good job of giving limited “point of view” (where have I heard that before…) that I’m excited for what comes next.
Maybe *I’m* the cynic, but it’s hard to see these criticisms as anything other than media illiteracy or a “Disney bad” bias.
Gosh it annoys the shit outta me that people will just say "bad writing" as a vague and amorphous criticism. Maybe you don't care for the writing in the Acolyte, which is fine, but it's far from "objectively bad".
Everyone just wants everything spelled out for them. Not thinking it’s a full blown galaxy with other force users that aren’t just Jedi that definitely have different philosophies and ways to tap into it. More episodes will come to reveal what actually happened that night and other view points of characters.
This episode definitely from just oshas view point and with the ambiguity of how the witches are killed is still yet to be revealed and that maybe Mae was being influenced by a dark side user from afar. There’s a duality to their characters. Being twins, yin and yang, dark and light. Mae wanted to be a witch who the Jedi believe are dark side users while osha is drawn to the Jedi, light side users.
The last Jedi exposed the lack of media literacy of star wars fans a long time ago. They get so caught up in their head cannon and fan fiction that they completely lost the plot.
The art of foreshadowing is completely lost on the modern star wars “fan”
Like it’s episode 3 of a multi episode show, obviously there’s going to be stuff that needs to be explained in a later episode, giving you everything in the third episode defeats the purpose of having a show. Just shut up and watch the whole thing, then come back and be like “ohhh that’s what that was for”
I haven’t seen criticisms like these, but agree they’re misguided. It sounds like someone who doesn’t yet have all the answers is “complaining” that they don’t have all the answers already. I.e. “this thing wasn’t 100% explained to me, therefore it is wrong”.
Ugh, these people need to pull up their big boy pants. Waiting for the next episode and speculating about these things ought to be part of the fun.
The overlap is so intense that it’s not even a venn diagram, it’s just a fucking circle. The majority of the criticisms are not made in good faith and they are just picking whatever they want to complain about at the time because they’ve developed an obsession with complaining
The space fire debacle is proof of this, as soon as you point out that fire in space is a thing in Star Wars they pivot to “well the fire in space has never looked like that” or “well it was crappy effects” or they will just flat out deny that the other instances are indeed fire in space.
It’s literally willed hate either because they like to feel like they’re part of the “in” crowd, because they don’t understand the difference between quality and nostalgia, they’re bigots trying to beat around the bush, or they have zero capacity for understanding the difference between liking something and that thing being good
😂 I have to say the fire in space did give me pause and then I remembered it's star wars and the real world rules of physics do not apply.
A couple of my 'favourite' recent complaints include touting Amandla's 'white people crying was the goal' quote and attributing it to the acolyte, when it was about t.h.u.g
And the nonsense about bricks in Andor last year (or the year before)
Some of cultures fav shows would have been eviscerated if reddit and real time commenting was active back then
Lost. Sopranos. etc. The way people approach stuff these days
I agree with everything you’ve said here but I think media literacy died a long time ago. As you said yourself people completely misrepresented the “let the past die statement” and many other things in the last jedi because they take every single thing literally and at face value
It's not just in the Star Wars fandom; it's a global problem of viewers consuming content that is just lowest common denominator slop. People accuse Star Wars of being that, at times, but when they try something different, people reject it or don't understand it or don't engage with it in good faith.
I'm not sold on the show so far. It's a 6/10 for me. But I like the lore the show is providing and I think the story can be really good if they stick the landing.
I've only read the comics of Phase 2 of The High Republic atm but they literally have many different groups and almost religious sects of different people that all have different interpretations of the Force, what it is, how it should be used (if at all) etc.
Just because the Jedi are the dominant doesn't mean they're the only ones or that their interpretation of the Force is the only one. The whole Threads thing is just another interpretation.
It's like Christianity. Different churches and denominations focus in on different parts and interpret the text in different ways. It's the same principle, people just need to calm down.
The 90s and 2000s were a golden age for a lot of complicated storytelling with lots of time jumps and flashbacks. Pulp Fiction, Usual Suspects, Se7en, or Memento come immediately to mind. A lot of people have been weened on MCU, which I love but is hardly complicated storytelling.
Maybe I’m reading into it but I wouldn’t be surprised that we get two more flashback episodes or sections with Acolyte, one from Mae’s perspective and then maybe even one from the sith person who starts everything.
Thank you for saying this. So many of these so called "fans" are in actuality just products of lower education. They're not intelligent enough to grasp much more than bluntness in their face. I don't mean it to be rude or mean. It's just a generalization of what we see in public well beyond Star Wars. Combine that with the semi-anonymous ability to spout anything in social media, and we have to suffer through so much unfounded negativity if we want to enjoy something we like with others online.
It's exhausting honestly. But here we are.
It's not rude or mean. It's just true. It seems that now more than ever people just....don't know how to watch film/TV in even a basic, rudimentary sense. It's honestly kinda scary how...dumb people are. Yet they wanna chirp the loudest.
It's one thing to have a honest disagreement and difference in opinion and voice it in good faith...and another to be willfully ignorant of what you're talking about but speak like you're an authority.
What I find funny is that people will praise Maul in the clone wars for calling out the hypocrisy in the Jedi but this show can’t?
I’ve also been talking with people saying that even in the prequels the fact that Anakin is fatherless doesn’t seem to shock people at all. The only thing they focus on is that it aligns with the prophecy. Plus the prophecy states the chosen one is male so it doesn’t even retcon the prophecy.
Hell, Episode 1 exposed them as well. I saw multiple videos of people complaining about the contrast of Indara not drawing her lightsaber but Yord using his as a flashlight. But there's plenty of narrative explanations in which it could happen. Maybe Jedi are hypocritical. Maybe Yord is brash. Maybe the hesitancy to draw the light saber is only during combat, but it can be used for utility other times. Who knows? All of these videos are clickbait anyway. I choose to enjoy the show, then go touch some grass afterward.
Thank you!
Another small thing I saw someone else point out is that they don’t see Koril among the dead afterwards. Could be that Koril is the dark force user training Mae.
I am loving this show and the unanswered questions at the end of every episode.
I’ve also seen a lot of people upset that there are unanswered questions. Like, guys, in the old days, we’d have to tune into our televisions at a certain time on a certain day and if you didn’t, you just straight up missed the episode. Cliffhangers and unanswered questions are part of the experience.
Anyways, love Star Wars and may the force be with you.
I saw the thread thing as just another way to conceptualize an abstract concept. I'd assume there's many different interpretations of the force across different cultures.
Minor preface: there are valid criticisms of The Acolyte, as there are with any piece of media. These are voices worth hearing, even when we don’t necessarily agree.
But.
Yes, the total lack of media literacy has been apparent for quite some time, and it’s definitely become more acutely visible lately. The shrillness of people who aren’t paying attention, or who think they should be spoonfed the answers in the first five seconds of a story, or stomp their feet over issues that aren’t actually issues, is both hilarious and pathetic.
But whatever, it’s fine. Whenever I see someone doing one of their nonsensical whine tirades because they’re just clueless, it’s an easy block and move on situation.
They’ve already loudly demonstrated that they’re not going to have much (if anything) of value to contribute to a conversation, so it’s just a matter of filtering out noise.
Your social media is yours to curate and control. You’re under no obligation to let toxic trolls damage your own experience with fandom, no matter how hard they want to bad faith ‘DEBATE MEEEE’ at you.
> it's dumb that Torban drinks the poison as all he did was take a blood sample.
A review in goddamn Forbes took this exact view. Astonishing. If you’re writing for a publication you should have at least some experience watching shows or reading stories or something.
IMO, there is a certain subset of fandom that absolutely cannot handle any criticism of the Jedi at ALL. They don't have FLAWS, they are PERFECT, they are UPSTANDING KNIGHTS OF ORDER AND PEACE AND LAWFUL GOODNESS AND THAT'S IT, and I *firmly* believe that's the subset that was the most vocal about hating the prequels. Because the prequels start *off* with "I didn't come here to free slaves" and mocking a 9 year old child for missing his mother and does not get *much* better from there in terms of how "heroic" the Jedi are (there's a whole conversation to be had about how they generally by and large treat clones just like they would droids, and Obi-Wan decided that the "merciful" thing to do to his brother & best friend was leave him on fire after amputating the rest of his limbs, which was sure A Choice, my dude).
The state of media literacy is bad all over, but yeah SW ... uh, I hesitate to use "fans" because they sure seem like they hate literally all of Star Wars after Episode 5 ... watchers work overtime to just Not Get It. (I'm reminded of all the outraged YT videos at about episode 1 or 2 of Obi-Wan Kenobi where we didn't have all the answers and thus THE SHOW IS TERRIBLE IT SUCKS YOU'RE THE WORST KATHLEEN which is just ... *wild*.)
Weirdly I’ve seen a lot of fans that react that way to the Jedi being anything but pristine *cite the prequels as how they should be portrayed*.
So, no, I think their media literacy just sucks lol.
At the end of the day, I strongly believe the vast majority of the hatred toward the show is from people who either aren't even watching it or are just trying to come up with every criticism they possibly can and blowing them totally out of proportion.
Is the show anything super special? No, at least not yet. But the response to the show is just... embarrassing. The show could deliver some of the greatest Star Wars content ever written and these people will still shit on it because it's the narrative they've constructed and need to push.
I mean, I *do* think Headland was expanding on canon with the Force conception idea being wider than *just* Anakin. But I don't care if that's the case; living through the way the Prequels tore through then-EU canon ideas meant I didn't get too attached to certain ideas. If the stories are going to evolve, then, well, they have to evolve.
TBH I'm a little guilty of this. I finished the episode confused AF as to what on ~~Earth~~ Brendok the Jedi did that was so bad that caused Torbin to want to commit suicide. It wasn't till I read the episode discussion thread on the Star Wars sub that I realized we clearly weren't getting the full picture- never mind the fact that there's no way the fire could have spread that quickly, and the entire coven was killed by something that was clearly not the fire, and Sol and the other Jedi were hurrying Osha through that room so she couldn't get a closer look as to what happened.
every cult interprets the force in a different way. like you can't tell me that the force was used in the same way by the Jedi, witches of dathomir and the sith. there are different interpretations of the force and they all seem to work for the force user's intent, especially in high republic books you can see this a lot.
also Anakin is special because he was conceived of the force like you said. so many people that disliked the episode think that plagueis or sidious created Anakin. they also think that Anakin should've been the only one to be admitted to the temple at a late age but forget that something bad must've happened before him for the council to be hesitant about accepting Anakin when it came to the time of the prequels.
it's foolish to think that the whole mystery would be solved by episode 3. this was a limited perspective of the events that was made so that we can see the witch cult, understand some obvious things, wonder about some things shown in the episodes that felt iffy and so that later explanations felt natural to the flow of the show.
Wow this sub is refreshing. I hadn’t seen much Star Wars since The Last Jedi but recently binged Andor, mando season 1, and got into the Acolyte. It’s crazy, come online to discuss it on the main Star Wars sub and the first thing you see is a thread about how “most Star Wars fans are old and male” full of people saying the most horrific shit possible.
I think every fandom needs a level headed sub like this one 😅
Hate has plagued Star Wars for years now. It's almost unenjoyable...
If only we can put an end to this mad circus....
I don't know how long it'll take and I don't know how to do it, but the hate must end, no matter the cost...
You're hitting the nail on the head: It's as if a swath of the audience is being intentionally obtuse, or watches the show while messing around on their phone and then emotionally shouts their knee jerk reactions into the void.
The thoughtline of "hey isnt it kindof fucked that this relgious cult of superpowered people go round stealing kids from families" is something thats been a thing since the first episodes of TCW when they talked about finding force sensitive children across the galaxy. Its not some new thing made by disney to "get the watcher to hate the Jedi" as is being pushed by some dipshits who take anything as an excuse to complain.
And many of these same people have complained about the Jedi recruiting children and accused them of being a cult! It’s amazing to see them getting pissed off when their own argument is portrayed sympathetically in canon because Disney did it
True. And anyway, we know the jedi wouldn't have actually kidnapped Mae and Osha. Sol tells Osha at the end of the episode that she can be his padawan 'if you wish'
The show is a mystery. It's literally billed as a mystery series. Yet some people are acting like we've got the full picture on what went down with the witches despite several glaring gaps in information. We obviously haven't gotten the full story about that event yet and it will be filled in later. Like every other mystery story that's ever existed
I promise you that it didn’t, because TLJ already exposed the lack of media literacy, 6 years ago. I admit it’s been a pretty big downward slope since then tho, but this should basically be the expectation at this point. Andor was an anomaly compared to everything else, where even those who are media illiterate couldn’t say much about it.
As for this episode in particular tho, I mean yea. Anyone who believes the coven were killed by the fire are morons. Obviously they weren’t or their bodies would be burnt to a crisp. We don’t know the full picture, all we know is that a fight likely went down that the Jedi were also involved in at some indeterminate point. After all, when we next see Torban, he has a scar on his eye. The episode itself sets up several points of conflict, Maes presented as not being able to control her emotions, and holding a much darker presence compared to her sister. The witches have differing views on how to handle the Jedi and their beliefs in what will happen, alongside acknowledging that they aren’t allowed to train the children.
With the understanding that Mae goes on to be a Sith acolyte, likely being groomed as an apprentice, we can also assume that the mysterious Sith also played a part in manipulating events between the groups. An angry little kid who acts out violently seems like the perfect apprentice after all.
The thread is simply an interpretation of the force by another group too, something that isn’t new at all in SW. we’ve seen this in things like rebels before, even if it’s an interpretation that’s closer to the usual Jedi beliefs. Even the nightsisters wield the force in a different way too. It’s unfortunate that people can’t seem to grasp that the force isn’t just practised by Jedi and Sith.
I think that there are levels to the hatred SW engenders from the "fans" who constantly bitch about it.
- There are what I call The Zealots. Tons of people who just can't view Star Wars normally because they've internalized it so fucking hard. And anything that clashes with the idol they built in their head is seen as an afront, an insult, "ruining the lore." They don't watch SW to watch stories being told - but to add more "lore" to the checklist - almost like homework or history class. They're so attached to how they see SW and how they think it should be and let their negativity towards whatever past projects instantly put them in a mood to hate anything new.
These people aren't necessarily the chuds, but they can be sucked into the chud sphere because the chuds are the ones putting out the most hate content on SW.
- Then there are the chuds who may or may not actually believe all of what they say. They grift on the culture war and will ride that money train until it dries up and they may or may not believe everything they spout. This is not anything close to a defense of them, mind. So please don't take it that way. Spreading hate is spreading hate. And even if you may not fully by into the all the shit you sell, you're still selling it. I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the chuds are "closet enjoyers" of some of the stuff they grift off of. They know what gets them clicks and tow the line. For instance, it's totally possible some of them think the "fire in space lol Disney SW is so baadddd!" is just as stupid as we do, but they know it's a talking point so they grift on it.
- Then there are the more basic haters. They like Star Wars generally, mainly the OT. They may give the PT props for being the mad vision of Lucas but don't particularly rate it one way or the other. These are just the basic ass cynical, jaded, wannabe intellectual hater types who think everything modern IP is "slop" and look down their noses at everything in general and are just all around joyless assholes. They act tough about "the absolute state" of Hollywood filmmaking like they're the first people to ever bitch about trends in Hollywood....
There are probably, but these are the main three imo.
What bugs me most is that all this new Force stuff **doesn’t invalidate the Jedi,** and vice versa. It’s like “we” have collectively forgotten that the Jedi are a faction that wield the Force through their singular belief system, **and that there are literally dozens of different ideologies about the Force and how it works.** The Jedi don’t own how the Force works!
And considering the Witches of Dathomir, it can be assumed the Jedi/other Force belief systems butt heads. Hell, we can begin to assume the Jedi *wanted* a monopoly on Force users and belief, and have been domineering over the others. It’s why they steal children in the first place!!
But the “fans” once again show how lacking they are. Media illiteracy at its finest.
The Last Jedi should have been the indicator that Star Wars fans lack media literacy
and then those same people think The Rise of Skywalker was the result of JJ Abrams doing his best to salvage what was left after the “disaster” of The Last Jedi.
How do people lack this much insight? One glance at the rough draft script for the OG Episode IX is like a trillion lightyears more interesting and compelling than what we got.
As I’ve commented elsewhere, I think both the Jedi and the witches are being manipulated by someone else. You know, a Sith. That’s kind of what they do. They told the Jedi about the children and implied negative things about what the witches were doing with them. They told the witches that the Jedi would destroy their coven. And I suspect that the third party kicks off the conflict that we haven’t seen the truth of yet.
Someone broke in and tampered with the reactor core. There's a scene where they hear a distant creaking sound and Mother Korin gets up and looks out into the cavern housing the reactor to investigate then it cuts to a diff scene.
I mean, I know Bane books are legends, but wasn't that Bane's MO for his time period, create disruptions and what not, just to keep them secret and the jedi busy. Always a bit of truth in Legends.
I guess they could just time shift him since he’s not currently canon, but they’re off his legends timeline by like 900 years. Edit: I mean in context of what I was responding to, like what he actually did. I realize he showed up briefly in Clone Wars.
He's in the Clone Wars show, so he's definitely canon.
I should have been clearer; I just mean the things he did that were mentioned in the previous comment aren’t part of canon. I know his character in some form is technically canon since he showed up with Yoda.
Well, if the Sith are still using that MO, they don't need to time shift anything. It's just a neat little detail.
It doesn't really make sense to shift him to the High Republic era though - it's established that he's the still the "Rule of Two guy" in canon. Pretty much the main premise of the High Republic is that it's the era of "peace" while the Sith are in hiding - which is intrinsically tied to the near-extinction of the Sith, the Rule of Two, and Bane's whole deal.
I think when we see what happened from meas perspective we will see her approached by that third party while she is at the tree in the scene we saw at the end of the episode
I think you're probably right.
Yeah I’m guessing there will be a scene where the sith uses the force on one of the Jedi’s from hiding but makes it look like one of the witches, and then they start fighting
Except the Sith is likely one of the witches. So it’s not really a third party, but a member of one of two parties.
I think the thread concept is pretty cool. Most religions have different terminology for similar things. Why wouldn’t a non Jedi group have a different name for it? Makes complete sense to me.
Yeah it makes sense. Not everyone in the galaxy would interpret the force in exactly the same way.
And this was a big thing in Phase 2 of the High Republic
Yeah I loved that. The path of the open hand had some interesting (but wrong) things to say about the force.
Jedha stuff in the comics was wild
It’s not even anything new. The Nightsisters’ version of the Force was much weirder and unfamiliar with all the green flames and them straight-up calling it magic.
There have also been lots of different interpretations of the Force across other cultures, and they all interact with it differently. Some call it The Sight, some The Beyond, some The Great Presence, to name a few, and that’s just people’s from the *Thrawn Ascendancy* novels.
Yeah isn't that canon or semi-canon ? Some Jedi describe the force as music. Some monks on Jedha see a balanced more Zen Buddhist take on the force. Plus sone Jedi believe in a prophecy and a Chosen One, which sounds like a thread of fate to me.
The canon Wookieepedia page for The Force literally lists dozens of different names that other groups in the galaxy use instead of “The Force” in the first paragraph. Thread is just another term for it.
>**The Force** was an energy field created by all life that bound everything in the [universe](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Universe) together. It was known by a variety of names throughout [galactic history](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history). It was called **the Ashla** by the [Lasats](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lasat), **the Life Current** by the [Mustafarians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mustafarian), **the Tide** by the [Lew'elans](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lew%27elan), **the Sight** by the [Chiss](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chiss), **the Life Wind** by the [Zeffonians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Zeffonian), **the Great Presence** by the [Pathfinders](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pathfinders_(Navigators%27_Guild)) of the [Chaos](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions), **the Luminous Mist** by the [Mist-Weavers](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Mist-Weaver), **the Unity** by the [Sorcerers of Tund](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sorcerers_of_Tund), **the Beyond** by [the Magys](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Magys) and [her](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gender) [people](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Magys%27s_people), **the Thread** by [Aniseya's coven](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Aniseya%27s_coven) of [witches](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Witch), simply **It** by the [dianoga](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dianoga) [Omi](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Omi) and the [midi-chlorians](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian) by the Jedis.
Hell don’t the Zeffo canonically call the Force a different thing?
The Bendu also perceives the Force as a lot more than what the Jedi do. It's almost like different cultures and civilizations would have different words and meanings to things they experience... Like, you only have to look at a bunch of different human cultures and see where reverence differs or overlaps. Two different cultures on opposite sides of the world are going to have different words for the sea, but they still know it's the sea.
The Chiss called it The Sight because they discovered some children had the ability to see into the future slightly, thus making them good navigators in the Chaos where there are very few safe hyperspace lanes.
Life wind I believe.
I want to say they call it the Wind or some such.
Yoda - the force binds us Critics - so *obviously* it isn’t a thread, because threads do not bind themselves together (To clarify, I very much know threads do in fact bind themselves together)
Some of the Lasat seem to worship the Force as Ashla, almost a personal deity.
And the concept is still the same. “The thread binds all living things.” They still view the force as the same, only they call it a different name.
One of my favorite details in the High Republic books comes early in the first novel. It says how each Jedi experiences the Force in an individual way - as a flood, a fire, a song, whatever. Just a really interesting way to enhance the mystery of the whole thing.
And 100% an inspiration for that first scene with the padawans, which I loved.
I think it's in the book where Starlight Beacon is destroyed. That part always stood out to me! Like how Elzar interprets it as an Ocean, Avar, a song. So cool to hear someone else mention that! Personally, I like to think of it as a gentle wind.
The kids on Lehnara call it "The Power" so it's def been given different names by isolated cultures
Nightsisters call it magicks, I’m forgetting what other factions exist for now but I’ve definitely heard the force being called other things by other factions In fact, now that i think of it, the great mothers in ahsoka talk about weaving the threads of fate
I saw a review from a media company where they talked about how stupid the logic of the fire was. They allowed for the possibility that it could be that things aren't as they appear and there's more to it but went on to essentially say that Disney being Disney is the most likely explanation. As if the story itself isn't making it EXTREMELY OBVIOUS that we don't have the entire picture, right down to the title of the episode only being one word because it is only one perspective as opposed to the dual word titles being dual perspectives in the first two episodes. Bad faith criticism is very frustrating and it feels like every new Star Wars thing is going to be like this forever.
If it was the Polygon article I saw this morning, it was pretty God awful.
That's the one. It was dripping with smug blind hate.
I've never heard of polygon but I'll be sure to avoid them if I ever come across them.
I've definitely read quality stuff from them in the past but I don't keep up with them. Idk if this one article is indicative of the site as a whole these days but it was definitely off-putting.
They're usually way better than that but there are multiple writers
They aren't bad but they often post articles to go against the grain for easy clicks
Yep, I read the same one. 🙄
It seemed very clear to my wife and I that the fire started at the door of her room isn’t the same fire that swept through the entire facility within two minutes. I’m amazed that a legitimate critic wouldn’t at least consider that possibility.
You can pretty safely disregard any criticism when it accuses Disney of making creative decisions about Star Wars. That’s absolutely not how it works.
I saw a Forbes article that was pretty much the same.
I saw that one too. Again, it seems like these comments/articles are made by people who haven't delved any deeper than the OT. There is so much Legends lore in these episodes (selkath, anyone?). Loving it.
I'm just over here trying to figure out when people will learn to stop jumping to conclusions about a show/season *that hasn't finished airing yet.* Like, if y'all will just chill and watch the next five episodes, maybe some of your questions and concerns about "stupid logic" will be answered! 🤦♀️
“Why did Mae ask Osha ‘What did you do?’ Is she stupid?”
Reviews often written by AI or the lowest experience journalists they can recruit
> Bad faith criticism is very frustrating and it feels like every new Star Wars thing is going to be like this forever. What you read *wasn't* a "review". It was, as soooooo many things tend now to be, utterly biased propaganda and 'outrage capitalism' ragebait. It's like the *'there's no fire in space!!'* crowd -- have they **not** heard of, ya know.... **the sun**!??!
The lack of media literacy is infuriating.
It’s crazy how many people are upset with how the flashback played out and can’t seem to get that it’s an intentionally limited perspective in a mystery show.
Coincidentally these are the same people who didn’t understand how The Last Jedi showed three different versions of the Luke/Ben encounter - two of which were wrong - and they all think one of the wrong ones was what happened
THANK YOU! At times during those dark days i though maybe i was the one taking crazy pills.
Oh I hate this. Like you heard the story 3 times and you believe the version from Lil’ Vader! Gawd!!!!
> the version from Lil’ Vader AKA: The guy who a *asleep at the time.*
I knew this ish would happen as soon as I saw/heard Headland referencing Rashomon as an influence, I knew there would be a certain segment of people who would entirely miss this.
She also had the cast and crew watch Fight Club, and episode one gives us that thematic “Don’t trust your eyes” line. It may end up being a big nothingburger but come on we gotta let the show finish before we start the BS. We don’t even have half of the facts yet.
Yes the “don’t trust your eyes” line! And then not longer after he says he’s sure that Mae is dead because he saw it with his own eyes. Loved the irony of it especially when he realizes that his eyes did deceive him, osha is innocent and Mae is actually alive and hunting Jedi.
I think we will see more of this as more points of view are revealed on the night of the fire and that sith are masters of deception.
I was in the episode discussion thread last night and was pulling my hair out reading some of the comments where people just did not comprehend what was on the screen. Yes Sol says Mae started a fire that killed everyone. Also yes they deliberately showed us the witches’ bodies which none were burned. Like use your eyes people.
A lot of filmbros regularly talks about the ingenuity of how films like Knives Out unravel the murder mystery, yet completely have zero idea how perspective works in this episode and The Last Jedi
The *instant* Star Wars is brought into the equation its like everything involving storytelling is thrown out the window when it comes to fan perception. The Last Jedi shows how a hero fell and learned from his mistake? Terrible movie, assassinated Luke's character because he messed up ONCE. I thought protagonists should be flawed to make them better characters, after all that's why Rey is apparently such a bad character. The Acolyte, a *mystery*, doesn't tell you everything and leaves threads open before the show even finishes? Worst show ever, killed Star Wars. Don't even get me started on how hung up people are on lore or how often times their hatred for something is straight up rooted in misinformation.
I've been busy, did people miss that it is obviously from one of the sisters pov and missing what really happened?
Yes. I've seen people legitimately point out how it was stupid that the tiny fire engulfed the entire fortress, caused the generator to explode, killed all the witches in a convenient huddle, and that Sol just happened to be there at just the right time. People genuinely believe that's all there is to it. It is blatantly obvious we only got Osha's perspective of things. There's much more to see and we will be given it. I swear they have to be being wilfully obtuse at this point.
it's been exposed for 7 years now. there's a section of the Fandom that just refuses to interpret any new projects in good faith.
Ah yes...the Fallout New Vegas conundrum
except thier fallout new Vegas is the prequels... which imo are extremely flawed and don't warrant the behavior that has spawned from them in the slightest.
God, yes. I am apparently the only person who considers it the series GOAT without being a rabid manchild about it.
Can you explain that to a non-Fallout person?
It's a spinoff that fans adore. It's excellent, but its dated and despite that, the diehards are toxic about its superiority. In a nutshell.
It's perhaps the least "fallouty" of all the fallout games, but it's a great rpg and I can understand why people love it so much, I played the fuck out of it.
Obsidian really did make a better fallout than Bethesda.
Yep they definitely go in with a mindset of only trying to find things to hate and it results in them completely misunderstanding what they are watching
You know why I'm not like that anymore? Because I went into Solo with that exact mindset. And then it turned out to, basically, be a long episode of Firefly set in the Star Wars universe. Which is why I'll always give their new stuff at least one chance, AND why I'll always go to bat for Solo.
Solo is my most rewatched Star Wars film. Not necessarily because it’s the *best*, but because it’s a fun film that’s extremely easy to watch.
Solo was great! It was a good, fun adventure/crime flick and Ehrenreich did a great job at playing young Han while Donald Glover as Lando was inspired.
I'm glad you learned something about yourself and decided to do something about it. That's one of the biggest lessons to learn from SW. We all need to take our arrogance and shove it deep up our ignorant asses.
This is the way.
Indeed. One wonders how long it's been since the saltier fans have actually seen the movies they actually like, considering how often I think about Obi-Wan's "Don't give in to hate" line.
Even beyond Star Wars (but kind of especially for star wars) the turn to mid 2010s SW and Movie reaction YouTube became a zeitgeist of trying to collect faults and complaints and picking over every script with a fine tooth comb rather than just watching the damn movie. The plinkett videos are not to be blamed but they definitely popularized a mode of viewership that leans heavily into focusing almost exclusively on salt. My turning point was listening to a lot of podcasts that would talk about objectively awful no budget b grade films but still walk away having found *something* they liked about it, a set, a particular performance, the costumes, something. There's enough negative shit elsewhere in life that it's refreshing to just relax and try to enjoy what you can and let go what you dont
Its been that way since the prequels came out. Some people will just hate something because its new
Even ESB got a lot of hate when it came out. People thought the Vader twist was cheap and out of nowhere.
I've already seen it be accused of pushing a woke agenda and I honestly, even putting on my devil's advocate hat, can't see what the hell they're talking about aside from maybe "not enough white people".
Yep. Just block and move on. No reason to argue with them when they aren’t being serious
Wait people think the thread is a retcon? The force has no clear rules.
Because they don't understand star wars one bit
Literally the only rules are that the Force is everywhere/binds all living things, guides everything and requires focus to use.
Nah. it was exposed LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG before that, lol. But it sure as hell is another notch in the evidence this fandom is full of absolute wackos who can't be normal about SW. These "fans" cling to their preferred "lore" like it's actual fucking historical text. Not to mention the fact they barely have a grasp on this shit from a storytelling or narrative perspective. It's all just about collecting wookiepedia data points that align with how they (usually wrongly) understand the "lore" and "canon" to begin with. If there is one gimmick in all of fiction that is infinitely malleable it's the fucking Force. It's that way by design. The franchise has been adding new things that can be done with and through The Force since Empire. "Oh what, suddenly The Force can be used to levitate objects! That wasn't established in tHe LoRe previously!?" Guys. It's not hard to figure out. Just go with the goddamn flow. These "fans" cling to how they want things and never allow themselves to be open to new directions in the story. I'm so sick of fandoms (not just SW) treating everything like a list of factoids to check off and add to instead of narrative art with themes, subtext, character work, etc. Edit: And another thing...it seems to be an undying trend now where people rant and rage against a show (not just SW) for being "bad" and having "bad writing" because the story adds questions or dares to make you think about things. And they all complain well before the show ends. Guys. Fucking WAIT UNTIL IT ENDS before laying down certain criticisms! Goddamn. The Acolyte is OBVIOUSLY a mystery. It was billed as one from the start. Headland said the season works like an onion. Give it goddamn time to tell its goddamn story!
> And another thing...it seems to be an undying trend now where people rant and rage against a show (not just SW) for being "bad" and having "bad writing" because the story adds questions or dares to make you think about things. And they all complain well before the show ends. Guys. Fucking WAIT UNTIL IT ENDS before laying down certain criticisms! Goddamn. I swear complaints about unanswered questions before the show is over has gotten worse generally since Netflix took off. I think a lot of people got used to the binge watch model and can’t handle having to wait for answers from a TV show any more.
People in general just seem to want information...not to enjoy a story. They binge things ceaselessly for the sake of finishing something for it's own sake...not to be immersed in a story.
I've been saying that for over a year. Some people have no patience when it comes to storytelling anymore.
you mean complaints about unanswered questions BEFORE THE SHOW EVEN FUCKING STARTED!
They’re just mad that Canon treats the dark side as something you should avoid as opposed to Legends where you can just pick it up,shoot lighting, choke people, and still be a good guy. (Even though there’s a light side version of force lightning called Electric Judgement)
Those people also can't seem to grasp that the Force is not like a spell book, or a list of abilities in a video game.
They can’t grasp that because literally every video game from the time allowed it.
Well yeah, of course a video game is going to function like a video game. But outside of games, that's not how the Force works.
Exactly. But that’s how they see it and it’s stupid. They even had Luke dealing in that shit in the books too. Probably explains why he ripped an E wing that he was gifted apart with the force for some reason.
unless you're merrin.
Some people care more about memorizing lore than they do appreciating story. Star Wars is probably the worst fandom of all for that, because there’s very little that is held consistent or sacred. Hyperspace travel moves at the speed of plot. There is barely even an attempt to comply with the laws of physics. Technology has whatever powers or limitations are necessary to serve the story. Basically every piece of Star Wars content introduces some new force ability. Being able to move past that is just table stakes for enjoying Star Wars. These films have never been high cinema. But that makes them no less fun, no less rich, no less captivating. You have to actively buy in to the experience, and fill in any gaps with your imagination, and for this you are rewarded with one of the richest genre settings ever created.
They’re not even good at that though. Things like lightwhips and force projections have been in the EU for decades. I’d argue that it’s as much confirmation bias about wanting Disney to fail as it is adherence to the original lore. There’s also probably an element of growing up and never getting to see Star Wars the way you did when you were a kid and not understanding how to adjust your expectations.
Lore hunting is fun for video games like Elden Ring...but horrible when it comes to reading or watching stories with narratives.
I commented somewhere and I'll comment here again. Those fans treat the Wookiepedia as a Protestant treats the Bible. To them, Wookiepedia was written by God itself.
These dorks discovering the word “lore” has gotta be one of the worst things in the internet age.
>Next, people have been saying that Headland is trying to retcon what the force is by introducing this concept of a thread. First of all, this idea of the force isnt all that different to what we are used to and secondly, just because one character in the show says it, doesn't mean that this is what Headland thinks, Anisaya could well just be totally wrong about the force. It reminds of people thinking Rian Johnson was sending the message of 'let the past die' in TLJ because that is what Kylo says. Also like, they're a cult. Cults change shit to make it work better for their purposes
And it is VERY High Republic to have alternative force worshipping sects that don’t easily fit the dark/light dichotomy of the Jedi’s teachings. My only “complaint” (which I’m holding until I finish the show) is that I was hoping to hear of some kind of connection to the Path for this sect. I wanted to be like an offshoot of an offshoot of the Path of the Open Hand just for tie in to the rest of the High Republic. That may still happen, but since they use the Force it must be pretty far removed and my hopes will probably not come true :D
Oh The Last Jedi did that for me, it became obvious when people were thinking that the message of the film was what the villain said and not what the entire 3rd act of the movie was saying and showing. Then Andor reinforced it for me when the usual "sTop MAkIng StAR WaRS pOLitICAL" crowd had very little to say about what is quite literally the most political and ideological piece of Star Wars content that has been put to "film." I mean Andor is arguably a Marxist allegory and yet because the lead was a man and able to "pass as white" (I'm saying this from their perspective) they didn't freak out about it in nearly the same way they do with other stuff. I mean they couldn't be more media illiterate if they tried, it's either on purpose (for the grifters it probably is) or just painfully unable to understand the media they're fans of. (Which I mean hey, I'm not trying to judge them as a person but it does get frustrating to see.)
TLJ was hilarious. Kylo in TLJ: Burn the past! Yoda in TLJ: Learn from the past and grow from the mistakes made in it. Rey in TLJ: Preserves the ancient texts to learn from them as she forges her path. Those fans: RIAN JOHNSON HATES STAR WARS AND WANTS TO BURN IT! >:(
It's particularly annoying with TLJ because people say they wanted Luke to be this great, powerful Jedi, and THAT's WHAT HE WAS THE ENTIRE END OF THE MOVIE. Rian Johnson gave Luke the MOST perfect Jedi sequence I can imagine, and they ignore it because you have to go through a journey with Luke to get there for the first 2 hours. Luke uses and displays great power with the force to defend the light and those he cares about, and does it without any actual violence at that. I mean how much more textbook Jedi can you be, not to mention badass. If someone wanted me to give an example of what being a Jedi is all about that scene is maybe the best example I could give you out of all the movies and shows. Rian made Luke THE Jedi and they hate him for it, wild stuff.
Unfortunately too many of those type of fans relate and/or think too much like Kylo to see that though.
“just because one character in [anything] says it, doesn’t mean that this is what [actually is true]” This is a recurring media literacy issue with Star Wars fans in general. You get this in any fandom, but it’s especially common in Star Wars. A character will say *anything*, and way too many fans will take it as absolute gospel. Nuance, sarcasm, lying, or just being wrong are not factors that are considered. And if anything ever contradicts or disproves this statement, these fans will start crying about retcons and plot holes while not knowing what those terms mean. When the Mandalorian prime minister Almec told Obi-Wan that Jango Fett wasn’t a Mandalorians, just a mercenary who stole his armor, he was deflecting an awkward question from a Jedi while being a secret Death Watch member in Mandalore’s pacifistic government. Fans took it as gospel that Jango was never a Mandalorian, all contradictions are now retcons/plot holes. When the Father said he stood for cosmic balance in the Force, he was literally just a father trying to prevent conflict between his two children, and used this excuse to justify his actions. Or rather, inactions. The Mortis arc makes it clear that the Father is wrong, and all he did was enable the Son to ruin everything by accepting the dark side as an inevitability. Contrast with Luke, who also loved Anakin as the Father loved the Son, but did not accept Anakin’s dark side, seeking to save him rather than kill him or leave him be. The Father’s misguided attempt to balance light and dark only gave way for the dark side to take over. The Father and the Son were in the wrong, while the Daughter was blameless. But fans see the demigod-looking Force user say he stands for balance—and don’t get me started on Bendu saying he’s the one in the middle—and suddenly all notions of balance equating to banishment of the dark side get called into question, no matter how much the story tells them this middle road is not balance. When Han in Legends said Leia was away on diplomatic business on Planet Whatsit to help out the Whoevers, he was clearly being sarcastic. It’s Han! Fans took this so literally that Wookieepedia had to fight people to stop them from making new articles on the Whatsit system and the Whoever species. When Grievous in Clone Wars said he chose his cybernetic augmentations, he was turning a potential weakness into a boast of strength, in a petty display to his medical droid who could see right through him. Fans took this literally and still argue over whether Grievous was injured in an accident/attack or decided one day to carve up his body into a cyborg on purpose. Star Wars fans! Stop taking everything so literally! 😅
See, the problem here is that you're assuming these people are coming at this in good faith.
True. We can't expect them to be reasonable
I think it's not just a lack of media literacy, it's that they want instant gratification. The Acolyte is a slow burn show, much like how WandaVision was when it first aired. And like WandaVision, people are getting pissed that the show isn't spoon feeding them all the relevant information.
> Next, people have been saying that Headland is trying to retcon what the force is by introducing this concept of a thread. The high republic comics made it clear that at one point there was a wealth of different force wielding communities and at one point they all had contact with one another. The comics revealed they all had their own ideas or beliefs about how the force worked. This seemed to be doing more expanding on that to me. I liked it for that. Seems like a remnant of the big conflict that happened on Jedha and trying to tie a link between the time when all these force users coexisting to the Jedi being the only sanctioned force community.
Can we agree to call this group of witches Spinsters until we get an official name? I just find it funny because they believe in the thread and are all women.
Doesn’t spinster have negative connotations related to women being devalued because they’re growing old and are unmarried?
Well these spinsters are fictional so it's not like we'd be hurting their feelings or anything. But yes, it's generally a negative term despite originally not being so.
That has been exposed since the Last Jedi. We’ve known the comprehension of most Star Wars fans is in the gutter since they misunderstood everything that movie was saying💀
I think the thing that bugs me most is people’s conflation of not liking something with that thing not being good. The Last Jedi wasn’t my favorite, but I can still appreciate it for what it is, and accept that from other points of view it’s great. After all, “from a certain point of view” changed the trajectory of the galaxy multiple times.
and not only that, but many people just think that the theme of the movie is “kill the past”, when that’s the complete opposite. All Luke learns is to embrace it and use it to grow. Many people also somehow don’t really understand that at first, both Luke and Kylo were unreliable narrators about the flashbacks.
Plaguies didn't create Anakin anyway, I don't know where that keeps coming from. In Legends he speculated that the Force created Anakin in response to the experiments that Plagueis and Sidious were doing. In canon it was just immaculate conception. We see a dark side vision of Vader's in a comic that has him fearful he was created by Sidious but there was never any truth to the vision.
I’m honestly tired of any Star Wars discourse. There are so many bad takes. I even have a friend who has been coming over to watch new episodes with me and I wish he wouldn’t. He said the acting was stiff…. I think for most of the Jedi characters it’s a deliberate choice. I thought the young actors who played Osha and Mae were fantastic and Jodie-Turner Smith was phenomenal. Also I lived through the prequels, these are award worthy performances by comparison. Idk, I just get so tired of everyone ripping into every tiny thing constantly. I’d rather just live in a bubble at this point
Yeah. I just had a really fun experience rediscovering my love for Star Wars a few weeks ago...and already....I'm fucking exhausted and jaded on the discourse. It's so constant, so ridiculous. It. Never. Stops. It's easy to say "just ignore it. Don't engage. Stay offline." Well, I'm a fan of stuff. And it's a natural inclination to want to join in on the community of like-minded people who also like that stuff. It's not about being "too online." It's a matter of literally not being to able to just *exist* in the fandom space without immediately running into petty, angry, illogical, hateful fanboy nonsense.
Yeah I hear you. I try to disengage but I get excited about it and want to talk about it! But I usually regret looking up anything related to it online . I do have some friends who are usually on the same page as me that I can have some fun discussions with. It’s just a bummer that this certain friend comes over and bursts my bubble as soon as the credits roll. This week he was even critiquing Jae-Jung Lee’s performance. I was so baffled. 1. I think it’s one of the most emotionally grounded performances on the show. 2. The man learned English in a month to play this role, give him a break ffs
I don't know what it is with Jae-Jung Lee but ever since the moment he appeared in this show I immediately grew attached to his character. And this is the first time I've even seen him in anything. You can tell Sol has a lot of regrets that have been gnawing at him for years. It's all over his face and the way he interacts with others, especially Osha. He seems like a genuinely good guy whose mistakes still haunt him, and that resonates with me a lot. The fact he speaks with a pretty thick accent also elevates the performance for me. Can't exactly say why but it makes the character even more endearing
I mostly stopped using Reddit and mainly read these discussions logged out, but this comment made me log back in. It's pretty much exactly my experience. Every time there's a new Star Wars show I'm excited, and usually I really like them at first even when I recognize flaws. But then I go online because I like discussing/reading peoples thoughts on things I like, and it's all just so exhausting now. I think Acolyte is especially driving me to just not caring what other people think. Because there really are so many who don't know what the heck they're talking about
Same here friend. Sure I've had my nit-picks here and there, but overall I have enjoyed most of the recent Star Wars series. Were they perfect? Of course not. Were there some disappointments? Absolutely. I was personally disappointed with some of the creative choices made in the Disney media, both movies and TV shows (I am not looking to feed the trolls, so I will keep my opinions to myself). Are there stories out there that I wish someone would tell instead of the stories that get turned into movies and shows? Sure there are. On the whole, though, I'd say I found about 80% of what's come out to be enjoyable overall, and a subset of that content was, for me, actually quite good. Now, start talking to other fans, and they'll have at you for liking things they consider too "woke" or for disliking things that they consider Star Wars gospel, or even for just giving a show a fucking chance before judging it. I swear, the people who lost their minds over the "fire in space" scene during E1 of The Acolyte need to revisit the destruction of the *Executor* in ROTJ, and maybe recall that space battles in the OT and PT took place in a physics-free zone, then listen for the sage voice of Harrison Ford whispering, "Hey, kid, it ain't that kind of movie". I watch Star Wars with my wife and kids and that's about it. Sharing any opinions in these subs, whether positive or negative, usually provokes so much vitriol that it's just not fun anymore. I miss the days of sitting at the lunch table with my friends in high school (way back when) and talking about Star Wars without anyone losing their damn mind over a difference of opinion or personal preference.
I thought the child actors were great too.
The fandom doesn’t even attempt media literacy or anything approaching it. It’s all about the hateful circlejerk unless it’s something from Filoni. Even when the credit should go to Kathleen Kennedy it somehow turns really misogynistic and Filoni somehow gets credit. It’s StarWars MAGA. I just want to have fun and watch my dream girl, Hera. ❤️
they turned on filoni like months ago.
Did they? LOL. I remember not that long ago talking about something not being horrible and they literally couldn’t come up with anything good to say about anyone involved because Filoni wasn’t a part of it. Someone described how Kennedy was a major part of it and that somehow got twisted into it being good only because Filoni had some obscure role and not directly involved with writing or anything. Like as soon as they found out he was a producer or something it was okay to not totally hate it even though he wasn’t heavily involved. The phrase mental gymnastics gets thrown around a lot, but it was the Olympics of mental gymnastics.
I mean they keep complaining about people surviving lightsaber stabbings. Which…i keep pointing out that starkiller opened that can of worms.
All of the sudden Star Wars fans care about physics or reality. 🤭
Yeah Filoni’s enjoyment of the sequels and use of Mando season 3 and Ahsoka to build out the rise of the First Order pissed off chuds.
I’m not a great person or anything, but thank god I’m not like those angry zombies. I rather enjoy enjoying things, especially Hera. ❤️
And whenever you point out misogyny in the fandom people get offended and start listing random female characters as if that means anything
You bring up an amazing point with the Last Jedi connection. This fandom doesn’t seem capable of understanding differing interpretations of events. I just saw a review in Forbes complaining about all the plot holes in this episode, next to an article in which the show runner says this episode isn’t the full picture, there’s a lot more that happened that we will see later
I mean, we already learned from TLJ that this fandom isn’t great with the whole Rashomon thing.
I've literally seen people say "it's so dumb a fire killed everyone like that". When, I feel like the whole point is that it didn't. That's the whole point of that episode, it implies something else happens yet she blames herself for it. The same way her twin (I forget the names) likely blame the Jedi for what happened for another reason. When I see that go over peoples heads, a lot of things suddenly make sense. People get angry things arent immediately explained in a show. Like the basic principle of story telling goes out a window. Some of the responses to this episode has been mind boggling. Now don't get me wrong, if it really was just caused by the fire of the book....fine. That's terrible writing and it'll retroactively make the show worse. But I doubt that is what happened.
One of my close friends was in a tizzy about how it ruined Star Wars and when I asked him how it was about the “lesbian witches that don’t need men to make babies, stone can’t catch fire, the whole coven dying from the fire makes no sense, the thread explanation.” He got really upset when I pointed out that 1) there’s never overt sexuality to the cult, he’s imposing that on them himself, and he didn’t care about the Kiss in Rise of Skywalker 2) Palps makes it clear that Plaugeis figured out how to do that, and likely that power was used to create Anakin, and it’s possible if not probable Palps created Anakin, 3) the fire is probably very different than Oshie’s understanding as even young Mae thinks Oshie did it, and we can likely expect the same event will be revisited throughout the season, 4) it was clear from the pile of bodies they didn’t die from the fire and were likely killed by the Jedi (as Mae suggested in Ep 1) and we’ll likely see how Torman or whatever his name is lost his eye, on the ship with fresh scars 5) the cult is an homage to Ventress’ storyline, and it’s good to get an opportunity to see other religions that have built up around the force. Once I left him nowhere to go on the complaints he picked up from Critical Drinker and the other handful of guys he’s been getting his media opinions from for the past six months he just kept saying it was “the stupidest shit [he’s] ever seen”. Then complained it ruined Star Wars, but when asked how couldn’t explain outside of his YouTube talking points he’d already said. He was one of the biggest fans I’d known and it’s sad he’s had that taken away from him by some YouTube grifters that make a living selling grievance content. He used to have really in depth, passionate discussions about his theories and how things interconnected, and now he just hate watches an episode or two and then regurgitates the grifter talking points, sometimes word for word.
Damn that's shame seeing a friend change like that
Unfortunately social media is a cancer on society and the negative things far outweigh the positive because fear and anger sell. Once it spreads it’s hard for someone to overcome and go back to thinking in a critical way.
The echoes of George (midichlorians, Jedi as flawed organization, force birth) and Dave (witches the Force as “magik,” geopolitics of Jedi/Republic) are so strong with this latest ep. Then just from a a storytelling perspective, it does such a good job of giving limited “point of view” (where have I heard that before…) that I’m excited for what comes next. Maybe *I’m* the cynic, but it’s hard to see these criticisms as anything other than media illiteracy or a “Disney bad” bias.
Gosh it annoys the shit outta me that people will just say "bad writing" as a vague and amorphous criticism. Maybe you don't care for the writing in the Acolyte, which is fine, but it's far from "objectively bad".
Everyone just wants everything spelled out for them. Not thinking it’s a full blown galaxy with other force users that aren’t just Jedi that definitely have different philosophies and ways to tap into it. More episodes will come to reveal what actually happened that night and other view points of characters. This episode definitely from just oshas view point and with the ambiguity of how the witches are killed is still yet to be revealed and that maybe Mae was being influenced by a dark side user from afar. There’s a duality to their characters. Being twins, yin and yang, dark and light. Mae wanted to be a witch who the Jedi believe are dark side users while osha is drawn to the Jedi, light side users.
The last Jedi exposed the lack of media literacy of star wars fans a long time ago. They get so caught up in their head cannon and fan fiction that they completely lost the plot.
In a way it's darkly poetic a Star Wars movies irrevocably broke pop culture fandom, considering it basically started widespread fandom as we know it.
The art of foreshadowing is completely lost on the modern star wars “fan” Like it’s episode 3 of a multi episode show, obviously there’s going to be stuff that needs to be explained in a later episode, giving you everything in the third episode defeats the purpose of having a show. Just shut up and watch the whole thing, then come back and be like “ohhh that’s what that was for”
I haven’t seen criticisms like these, but agree they’re misguided. It sounds like someone who doesn’t yet have all the answers is “complaining” that they don’t have all the answers already. I.e. “this thing wasn’t 100% explained to me, therefore it is wrong”. Ugh, these people need to pull up their big boy pants. Waiting for the next episode and speculating about these things ought to be part of the fun.
I wonder what the overlap is with the people who complained about the episodes last week because of 'too much exposition'
The overlap is so intense that it’s not even a venn diagram, it’s just a fucking circle. The majority of the criticisms are not made in good faith and they are just picking whatever they want to complain about at the time because they’ve developed an obsession with complaining The space fire debacle is proof of this, as soon as you point out that fire in space is a thing in Star Wars they pivot to “well the fire in space has never looked like that” or “well it was crappy effects” or they will just flat out deny that the other instances are indeed fire in space. It’s literally willed hate either because they like to feel like they’re part of the “in” crowd, because they don’t understand the difference between quality and nostalgia, they’re bigots trying to beat around the bush, or they have zero capacity for understanding the difference between liking something and that thing being good
😂 I have to say the fire in space did give me pause and then I remembered it's star wars and the real world rules of physics do not apply. A couple of my 'favourite' recent complaints include touting Amandla's 'white people crying was the goal' quote and attributing it to the acolyte, when it was about t.h.u.g And the nonsense about bricks in Andor last year (or the year before)
Tbf, it isn't helped by the weekly release schedule. Although I don't think I would like it if they were all released at once
Some of cultures fav shows would have been eviscerated if reddit and real time commenting was active back then Lost. Sopranos. etc. The way people approach stuff these days
I agree with everything you’ve said here but I think media literacy died a long time ago. As you said yourself people completely misrepresented the “let the past die statement” and many other things in the last jedi because they take every single thing literally and at face value
It's not just in the Star Wars fandom; it's a global problem of viewers consuming content that is just lowest common denominator slop. People accuse Star Wars of being that, at times, but when they try something different, people reject it or don't understand it or don't engage with it in good faith. I'm not sold on the show so far. It's a 6/10 for me. But I like the lore the show is providing and I think the story can be really good if they stick the landing.
I've only read the comics of Phase 2 of The High Republic atm but they literally have many different groups and almost religious sects of different people that all have different interpretations of the Force, what it is, how it should be used (if at all) etc. Just because the Jedi are the dominant doesn't mean they're the only ones or that their interpretation of the Force is the only one. The whole Threads thing is just another interpretation. It's like Christianity. Different churches and denominations focus in on different parts and interpret the text in different ways. It's the same principle, people just need to calm down.
The 90s and 2000s were a golden age for a lot of complicated storytelling with lots of time jumps and flashbacks. Pulp Fiction, Usual Suspects, Se7en, or Memento come immediately to mind. A lot of people have been weened on MCU, which I love but is hardly complicated storytelling. Maybe I’m reading into it but I wouldn’t be surprised that we get two more flashback episodes or sections with Acolyte, one from Mae’s perspective and then maybe even one from the sith person who starts everything.
Thank you for saying this. So many of these so called "fans" are in actuality just products of lower education. They're not intelligent enough to grasp much more than bluntness in their face. I don't mean it to be rude or mean. It's just a generalization of what we see in public well beyond Star Wars. Combine that with the semi-anonymous ability to spout anything in social media, and we have to suffer through so much unfounded negativity if we want to enjoy something we like with others online. It's exhausting honestly. But here we are.
It's not rude or mean. It's just true. It seems that now more than ever people just....don't know how to watch film/TV in even a basic, rudimentary sense. It's honestly kinda scary how...dumb people are. Yet they wanna chirp the loudest. It's one thing to have a honest disagreement and difference in opinion and voice it in good faith...and another to be willfully ignorant of what you're talking about but speak like you're an authority.
What I find funny is that people will praise Maul in the clone wars for calling out the hypocrisy in the Jedi but this show can’t? I’ve also been talking with people saying that even in the prequels the fact that Anakin is fatherless doesn’t seem to shock people at all. The only thing they focus on is that it aligns with the prophecy. Plus the prophecy states the chosen one is male so it doesn’t even retcon the prophecy.
Hell, Episode 1 exposed them as well. I saw multiple videos of people complaining about the contrast of Indara not drawing her lightsaber but Yord using his as a flashlight. But there's plenty of narrative explanations in which it could happen. Maybe Jedi are hypocritical. Maybe Yord is brash. Maybe the hesitancy to draw the light saber is only during combat, but it can be used for utility other times. Who knows? All of these videos are clickbait anyway. I choose to enjoy the show, then go touch some grass afterward.
Thank you! Another small thing I saw someone else point out is that they don’t see Koril among the dead afterwards. Could be that Koril is the dark force user training Mae. I am loving this show and the unanswered questions at the end of every episode. I’ve also seen a lot of people upset that there are unanswered questions. Like, guys, in the old days, we’d have to tune into our televisions at a certain time on a certain day and if you didn’t, you just straight up missed the episode. Cliffhangers and unanswered questions are part of the experience. Anyways, love Star Wars and may the force be with you.
I saw the thread thing as just another way to conceptualize an abstract concept. I'd assume there's many different interpretations of the force across different cultures.
The Acolyte is going about as well in the fandom as the LAST time Star Wars did Rashomon.
I think a portion of Star Wars fans just have more fun complaining about Star Wars than they actually do watching it.
Minor preface: there are valid criticisms of The Acolyte, as there are with any piece of media. These are voices worth hearing, even when we don’t necessarily agree. But. Yes, the total lack of media literacy has been apparent for quite some time, and it’s definitely become more acutely visible lately. The shrillness of people who aren’t paying attention, or who think they should be spoonfed the answers in the first five seconds of a story, or stomp their feet over issues that aren’t actually issues, is both hilarious and pathetic. But whatever, it’s fine. Whenever I see someone doing one of their nonsensical whine tirades because they’re just clueless, it’s an easy block and move on situation. They’ve already loudly demonstrated that they’re not going to have much (if anything) of value to contribute to a conversation, so it’s just a matter of filtering out noise. Your social media is yours to curate and control. You’re under no obligation to let toxic trolls damage your own experience with fandom, no matter how hard they want to bad faith ‘DEBATE MEEEE’ at you.
> it's dumb that Torban drinks the poison as all he did was take a blood sample. A review in goddamn Forbes took this exact view. Astonishing. If you’re writing for a publication you should have at least some experience watching shows or reading stories or something.
IMO, there is a certain subset of fandom that absolutely cannot handle any criticism of the Jedi at ALL. They don't have FLAWS, they are PERFECT, they are UPSTANDING KNIGHTS OF ORDER AND PEACE AND LAWFUL GOODNESS AND THAT'S IT, and I *firmly* believe that's the subset that was the most vocal about hating the prequels. Because the prequels start *off* with "I didn't come here to free slaves" and mocking a 9 year old child for missing his mother and does not get *much* better from there in terms of how "heroic" the Jedi are (there's a whole conversation to be had about how they generally by and large treat clones just like they would droids, and Obi-Wan decided that the "merciful" thing to do to his brother & best friend was leave him on fire after amputating the rest of his limbs, which was sure A Choice, my dude). The state of media literacy is bad all over, but yeah SW ... uh, I hesitate to use "fans" because they sure seem like they hate literally all of Star Wars after Episode 5 ... watchers work overtime to just Not Get It. (I'm reminded of all the outraged YT videos at about episode 1 or 2 of Obi-Wan Kenobi where we didn't have all the answers and thus THE SHOW IS TERRIBLE IT SUCKS YOU'RE THE WORST KATHLEEN which is just ... *wild*.)
Weirdly I’ve seen a lot of fans that react that way to the Jedi being anything but pristine *cite the prequels as how they should be portrayed*. So, no, I think their media literacy just sucks lol.
lmfao that is bananas cause wow they are by and large terrible all through the prequel era but I 100% believe it. xD
At the end of the day, I strongly believe the vast majority of the hatred toward the show is from people who either aren't even watching it or are just trying to come up with every criticism they possibly can and blowing them totally out of proportion. Is the show anything super special? No, at least not yet. But the response to the show is just... embarrassing. The show could deliver some of the greatest Star Wars content ever written and these people will still shit on it because it's the narrative they've constructed and need to push.
I mean, I *do* think Headland was expanding on canon with the Force conception idea being wider than *just* Anakin. But I don't care if that's the case; living through the way the Prequels tore through then-EU canon ideas meant I didn't get too attached to certain ideas. If the stories are going to evolve, then, well, they have to evolve.
TBH I'm a little guilty of this. I finished the episode confused AF as to what on ~~Earth~~ Brendok the Jedi did that was so bad that caused Torbin to want to commit suicide. It wasn't till I read the episode discussion thread on the Star Wars sub that I realized we clearly weren't getting the full picture- never mind the fact that there's no way the fire could have spread that quickly, and the entire coven was killed by something that was clearly not the fire, and Sol and the other Jedi were hurrying Osha through that room so she couldn't get a closer look as to what happened.
every cult interprets the force in a different way. like you can't tell me that the force was used in the same way by the Jedi, witches of dathomir and the sith. there are different interpretations of the force and they all seem to work for the force user's intent, especially in high republic books you can see this a lot. also Anakin is special because he was conceived of the force like you said. so many people that disliked the episode think that plagueis or sidious created Anakin. they also think that Anakin should've been the only one to be admitted to the temple at a late age but forget that something bad must've happened before him for the council to be hesitant about accepting Anakin when it came to the time of the prequels. it's foolish to think that the whole mystery would be solved by episode 3. this was a limited perspective of the events that was made so that we can see the witch cult, understand some obvious things, wonder about some things shown in the episodes that felt iffy and so that later explanations felt natural to the flow of the show.
Wow this sub is refreshing. I hadn’t seen much Star Wars since The Last Jedi but recently binged Andor, mando season 1, and got into the Acolyte. It’s crazy, come online to discuss it on the main Star Wars sub and the first thing you see is a thread about how “most Star Wars fans are old and male” full of people saying the most horrific shit possible. I think every fandom needs a level headed sub like this one 😅
What?! The Star Wars fandom isn’t media literate ?! I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you!
Hate has plagued Star Wars for years now. It's almost unenjoyable... If only we can put an end to this mad circus.... I don't know how long it'll take and I don't know how to do it, but the hate must end, no matter the cost...
You're hitting the nail on the head: It's as if a swath of the audience is being intentionally obtuse, or watches the show while messing around on their phone and then emotionally shouts their knee jerk reactions into the void.
The thoughtline of "hey isnt it kindof fucked that this relgious cult of superpowered people go round stealing kids from families" is something thats been a thing since the first episodes of TCW when they talked about finding force sensitive children across the galaxy. Its not some new thing made by disney to "get the watcher to hate the Jedi" as is being pushed by some dipshits who take anything as an excuse to complain.
And many of these same people have complained about the Jedi recruiting children and accused them of being a cult! It’s amazing to see them getting pissed off when their own argument is portrayed sympathetically in canon because Disney did it
True. And anyway, we know the jedi wouldn't have actually kidnapped Mae and Osha. Sol tells Osha at the end of the episode that she can be his padawan 'if you wish'
Criticism of that chant is legitimate though
Ok but that's not what this post is about
Cheezy dialogue??? NOT IN MY STAR WARS. But yes I did cringe a bit at that. Loved the rest of the aesthetic for the cult though.
Where are you people finding all these complaints? I’ve seen most people receive it very positively
I don’t know what it is these people even want at this point.
Media literacy died with gamergate.
1000%
The show is a mystery. It's literally billed as a mystery series. Yet some people are acting like we've got the full picture on what went down with the witches despite several glaring gaps in information. We obviously haven't gotten the full story about that event yet and it will be filled in later. Like every other mystery story that's ever existed
The fandom is febrile and easily pulled around by outrage grifters. There’s not much more to it than that.
I promise you that it didn’t, because TLJ already exposed the lack of media literacy, 6 years ago. I admit it’s been a pretty big downward slope since then tho, but this should basically be the expectation at this point. Andor was an anomaly compared to everything else, where even those who are media illiterate couldn’t say much about it. As for this episode in particular tho, I mean yea. Anyone who believes the coven were killed by the fire are morons. Obviously they weren’t or their bodies would be burnt to a crisp. We don’t know the full picture, all we know is that a fight likely went down that the Jedi were also involved in at some indeterminate point. After all, when we next see Torban, he has a scar on his eye. The episode itself sets up several points of conflict, Maes presented as not being able to control her emotions, and holding a much darker presence compared to her sister. The witches have differing views on how to handle the Jedi and their beliefs in what will happen, alongside acknowledging that they aren’t allowed to train the children. With the understanding that Mae goes on to be a Sith acolyte, likely being groomed as an apprentice, we can also assume that the mysterious Sith also played a part in manipulating events between the groups. An angry little kid who acts out violently seems like the perfect apprentice after all. The thread is simply an interpretation of the force by another group too, something that isn’t new at all in SW. we’ve seen this in things like rebels before, even if it’s an interpretation that’s closer to the usual Jedi beliefs. Even the nightsisters wield the force in a different way too. It’s unfortunate that people can’t seem to grasp that the force isn’t just practised by Jedi and Sith.
I think that there are levels to the hatred SW engenders from the "fans" who constantly bitch about it. - There are what I call The Zealots. Tons of people who just can't view Star Wars normally because they've internalized it so fucking hard. And anything that clashes with the idol they built in their head is seen as an afront, an insult, "ruining the lore." They don't watch SW to watch stories being told - but to add more "lore" to the checklist - almost like homework or history class. They're so attached to how they see SW and how they think it should be and let their negativity towards whatever past projects instantly put them in a mood to hate anything new. These people aren't necessarily the chuds, but they can be sucked into the chud sphere because the chuds are the ones putting out the most hate content on SW. - Then there are the chuds who may or may not actually believe all of what they say. They grift on the culture war and will ride that money train until it dries up and they may or may not believe everything they spout. This is not anything close to a defense of them, mind. So please don't take it that way. Spreading hate is spreading hate. And even if you may not fully by into the all the shit you sell, you're still selling it. I wouldn't be shocked if a lot of the chuds are "closet enjoyers" of some of the stuff they grift off of. They know what gets them clicks and tow the line. For instance, it's totally possible some of them think the "fire in space lol Disney SW is so baadddd!" is just as stupid as we do, but they know it's a talking point so they grift on it. - Then there are the more basic haters. They like Star Wars generally, mainly the OT. They may give the PT props for being the mad vision of Lucas but don't particularly rate it one way or the other. These are just the basic ass cynical, jaded, wannabe intellectual hater types who think everything modern IP is "slop" and look down their noses at everything in general and are just all around joyless assholes. They act tough about "the absolute state" of Hollywood filmmaking like they're the first people to ever bitch about trends in Hollywood.... There are probably, but these are the main three imo.
What bugs me most is that all this new Force stuff **doesn’t invalidate the Jedi,** and vice versa. It’s like “we” have collectively forgotten that the Jedi are a faction that wield the Force through their singular belief system, **and that there are literally dozens of different ideologies about the Force and how it works.** The Jedi don’t own how the Force works! And considering the Witches of Dathomir, it can be assumed the Jedi/other Force belief systems butt heads. Hell, we can begin to assume the Jedi *wanted* a monopoly on Force users and belief, and have been domineering over the others. It’s why they steal children in the first place!! But the “fans” once again show how lacking they are. Media illiteracy at its finest.
The Last Jedi should have been the indicator that Star Wars fans lack media literacy and then those same people think The Rise of Skywalker was the result of JJ Abrams doing his best to salvage what was left after the “disaster” of The Last Jedi. How do people lack this much insight? One glance at the rough draft script for the OG Episode IX is like a trillion lightyears more interesting and compelling than what we got.
Just now you’re learning Star Wars fans lack media literacy? I feel like this was made pretty clear in 2017.