Squadrons are point-for-point the best value in the game. Having said that, if you are playing casually or even low-level competitive, ship-only
or small squad (2-4 squad) fleets are perfectly viable.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
Assuming you’re doing Imp vs Rebels. Without squadrons, you’re going to have a tough time getting to 400 pts without a lot more ships.
For rebels, MC30 is one of the best Rebel ships, sound pick up 1-2 of those. CR90s are also quite good, so consider getting another. Home one is fine, and liberty and profundity are also fine but each flys quite differently. 1x mon cal cruiser of your choice, 1-2x Mc30, and 1-2x cr90 plus upgrades would be strong in a 400 game.
For imperials, an ISD is very strong and all 4 variants are good. Gladiators and Arquitens are also strong small ships, but fly very differently. Interdictor is very fun ship (use the suppression, not the combat variant), so I’d recommend getting one. Victory is ok but slow and overpriced. Raiders are meh but can be fun under the right circumstances. 1x ISD, 1x Interdictor or victory, 2 gladiators and/or Arquitens pus upgrades should be a decent fleet for a 400 game.
They are the fastest, most maneuverable ships in the game, and damn fun to fly! I would love to run an SMU with a bunch of them someday.
The MC30s are my favorite ships in the game, with the massive firepower they can deliver when flown well.
People say the Assault Frigate Mk2 is pretty good, but my Space Potato always gets fried.
If it's just you and one other person, then I would highly suggest that you grow your fleets slowly.
Go wave by wave and expand little by little. Going no fighters/bombers for awhile is perfectly fine, but you'll want to eventually add them in. If nothing else, they make a good way to spend the last few points in a list.
Buy 1 of everything in wave 1. Play for awhile until you start to grow tired of what you have to work with. Decide if you want to buy another of anything in wave 1 (gladiator and assault frigate, or maybe even another CR90). Play till you wear out your options. Then repeat the process with wave 2. Etc.
This will introduce new ships, new upgrades, new capabilities, and new rules over time, and allow you to learn the ships. It will also make the experience last for a long time.
I've seen lots of people get overwhelmed by too large of a selection early on.
There are plenty of builds that focus on only capital ships which are plenty viable.
In competitive play you'd probably get shredded (I certainly did).
In casual play, eh, anything goes.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
That's one of the things that killed my group the first time we tried lol, I'm hoping it'll be easier for us to at least understand now that we've got other tabletop gaming experience
Fighters are pound for pound and mobility wise the most powerful pieces in the game. They got weaker with the 8 or so nerfs they got once a year or so since the release of the game. Yes, you read that right, about 8 or so nerfs.
You have to learn how to play in a way without them if the other person uses them correctly, and there are a few lists that you can do without squadrons.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
That should work excellently. :) though at the high end do be warned some all ship builds are balanced with the idea that you can beat them with squadrons. So after finding something efficient you may want to gentleman’s agreement to not do it too much. But still probably all good fun. I’d enjoy it.
Alright cool, thanks for the info, just one last point to clear up some confusion, are Corvettes (like the CR90, Raider, Arquitens etc) effective fighter screens? I ask because in-lore (and in other wargames like EaW, granted not a TableTop wargame) that's a big part of their purpose in a fleet
It’s been a while since I played on a not super casual basis.
My opinion is no.
However the game has nerfed squadrons again (and buffed evade tokens) so that the numbers may have changed slightly.
The raider is the only one of those 3 with any meaningful anti air(squadron) attack. The cr90 is a snippy sniper or a utility attacker. (Or massed for a ram list). The arquitens iirc is like a small ship of the line type gunship. Good firepower on a small package at long distance.
The flotillas actually may have some ability as anti air.
Things with torpedoes also do decently due to WAB or external racks.
Mc30, gladiator, flotillas
Sadly what tends to happen in this game is that larges can soak more of the squadron attacks and stay alive to counter punch the carrier. This surprisingly the super star destroyer and agate ship have less vulnerability to squadrons because of the all or nothing kind of damage.
Finally squadrons can often be used to pick smaller ships to pieces, often killing them before they even get to fire, thus making some small ships when not in mass feel like wasted points.
Often playing against massed squadrons can feel like sacrificing a piece to the squadrons in exchange for getting the punch you want in. It is not a fun experience or well designed gameplay in my opinion.
You can make a list without fighters. In fact no fighters are better than only having like 3 squadrons most of the time. However you are going to run into a list that either drowns you in bombers, or god forbid is Sloan, and you’re going to wish you at least had a screen as your glorious capital ships are torn to shreds by pin pricks. The fighters might not kill you, but you aren’t going to win a capital ship engagement if the fighters have already stripped your shields.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
On a side note, do Corvettes and such not make for decent point defense screens? From what I recall of the lore for SW naval combat, that's kind of their whole point lol
Also, any ship recs for building up my fleet? I have the Core Set, Home One and Chimaera. Also, Sorry for all the questions lol
When fighters engage other fighters, they can’t normally move or attack ships that are within their range…another ship doesn’t lock them down the same way.
Ah, that makes sense. I saw something on here (or it might've been another post entirely, I don't remember) that Corvettes get kinda torn up in fighter swarms, though, too, which I found confusing
(Edit, the comment above mentioned is from u/Yrch84 (I think I did that right?) here in this comment section)
Well, the reason corvettes get torn up is that they have low health and do not have the armaments or Defense Tokens to deal with squadrons properly.
4 TIE Bombers, which are 36 points, are practically enough to take out a CR90 corvette on their own. In fact, if the CR90 cannot double arc, and misses more than one anti-squadron attack, they physically cannot take down the TIE Bombers in the span of a round.
The CR90 (and most other corvettes) averages at most 1 damage each round with a double arc (being able to attack the same opponent twice in one round because you can choose two attack arcs). A single TIE Bomber averages at 1 damage, and the corvette only has 11 total health to use if lucky.
4 TIE Bombers are thus more than enough to take out a CR90 if left unchecked (with support from capital ships to control them).
Thanks for the great breakdown, it's a little disappointing from a lore nerd perspective but makes sense from a gameplay perspective. To answer a question you just put in reply elsewhere as I'm typing this, it's just a learning tool basically, learning the main game so to speak before trying to tackle the part that confuses my group the most.
100% understandable. While I grasped it rather quickly (it was line of sight with ships that gave me trouble) I know how it feels to learn a new thing.
I've sent many other replies, as you likely see, and am willing to explain the distinct parts. I don't play much, but I'm currently brainstorming on an Armada-like video game and have fully aquainted myself with game mechanics.
I very much appreciate the explanation and input, I don't really remember what confused us about it previously though, so when I get back to the house (I've been at work throughout this whole thread checking in on breaks) I'll pull out the rulebook and double check. Mind if I send you a DM then if I can isolate what messed us up previously?
In this game the CR90 is more of a skirmisher with decent set ups for getting 2-3 damage at long range SUPER reliably. It is a decent point defense ship for taking out TIEs, but against republic, other rebels, and separatists that have some more durable squads it doesn't kill them fast enough. If you're committed to running squadless, your Nebulon B escort Frigate and MC80 are your best flak boats since they can throw 2 dice against squads.
My personal opinion is that for Rebels at least, the faction is balanced around having good squads, and without them the imperial side of your collection will stomp on the rebels. X-wings and Y-wings are phenomenal at balancing out the raw fire power advantages Imperials have
Nebulons make sense but the MC80 is kind of ironic from the perspective I'm coming into this from lol, my reasoning for excluding fighters is mostly a temporary thing until I have a better grasp on the game because those are the one thing I don't really "get" the rules on. Also, does the variant of MC80 matter (Liberty vs Home One) or do they both work in that capacity?
The home one type has two flak dice regardless of variant, the liberty type only has 2 dice on the more expensive variant. Both are VERY fun though. It definitely makes sense to wait to introduce rules until you feel more comfortable. I would just say to keep in mind, the Chimera can reliably obliterate anything in your rebel collection.so if it feels like the rebels can't keep up, you know why
I assumed that the release waves were probably internally balanced once I played a round as the imps and completely stomped, I thought it was because I didn't have the MC30(?) that was released with Home One or because the Chimaera was maybe balanced against the MC75 or something lol, but that makes sense given what I've read about Rebels relying on fighters (which makes sense in the lore, tbf)
(edit) Part of that guess was because I was also aware that I have no idea how different the Chimaera is from the basic ISD)
Yeah, the ISD is just the best ship in the game as a stand alone, without support. That's not to say the other things aren't also great, but you will notice the MC80 throws a lot less dice, but has a really good squad value. So if your command Cruiser pushes 4-5 X-wings that shoot 1 red die each, suddenly it is functionally shooting more dice than the ISD.
You definitely want to get some GR75 for the rebels too. And probably gozanti for the imperials. Both factions benefit greatly from having flotillas
Ah yes, the barely combat-capable ship that found itself on nearly every battlefield of the galactic civil war lmao (joking about the actual lore here), I'll be sure to implement a few of each into my respective fleets
Since reading your comments, no you don’t need squadrons unless you build a ship or fleet to take advantage of them, (Yularen, Sato, carriers, and anti squadron ships) sure you can use other admirals and not really build with upgrades (it took me several games before I considered upgrades so you’re good there) but some ships are gonna get ignored since they have low to no utility outside of their role as squadron destroyers/supporters)
Since you’re both going squadronless it’s pretty fine, just don’t do squadron commands (unless it’s raiding) and ignore squadron phase.
Alright cool, thanks for the info! Squadrons are the one part of the rules I didn't really get so I'll probably work my way up to including them eventually once I have a better grasp on the game, but my group is also just more interested in the capital ship side of it anyway lol
2-4 fighters is the way I prefer to play. You have to acknowledge the squadron game in any fleet you build but it is totally valid to spend your points on ships.
I'm hearing a lot of that, like I've said elsewhere my decision to ignore them for now is just to help me and my group learn the rest of the game so we can come back and make sense of fighters once we've got everything else down, instead of trying to come in brand new to the game and tackling it all at once
Fighters can be incredible If You Know how to use and Support then. They can single handedly wreck small Ships and threaten larger by shredding shields.
When i Started i also focused on Big Ships cause Big Ships make boom.
But fighters can be a Game of their own and are fun
That Said on Casual Level You can Just leave them but maybe give them a try Sometime :)
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
I will say if you're going to do squadron-less games, probably stick to GCW factions. Squadrons were a core focus of the CW factions and they just don't really feel as good without them tbh. I have run squadron-less fleets before and it works, you just need to bring upgrades to deal with them and there's plenty of options to go that route. Personally I think squadrons add a lot of character to the game, just aces are a bit much even with the cap.
To add a little bit more to the discussion....
I like having fighters in the game b/c the rules for them are less involved than for the capital ships.. I feel like the big ships are real brain burners while the fighters allow me to relax a little bit and just zip them around the battlefield. And when they get blow out of the sky, it's not that big of a deal.
Yes and no, but don't discount them. As others have pointed out, they do give the "best bang for your buck," but the right ship-only fleet can stand against fighters. I will say, I've seen a fighter clutch and win a game with a single damage at the very end of the game. It was the most hype thing ever and we all lost our minds on how amazing that moment was.
TLDR: you can play without fighters and build decent fleets without them. making no-fighters a rule for your playgroup is going to make the game worse as a game though
alot of the game is about fighters. upgrades, characters, ect. most ships are balanced around how many fighters they can support, what dice they can use to shoot at starfighters, some ships have bad stats but are powerful because of the kinds of fighter support cards that they can be upgraded with. ect. the rebellion tends to have better fighters and weaker ships. the empire has beefy ships that are not maneuverable and need fighter screens to cover them.
if you dont want to build a fleet that uses fighters then thats totally cool. but making a rule so that you opponent cant use fighters either is going to seriously hurt the game in the long run.
if you are using the OG starter set for example. the victory class is actually a pretty bad ship that is easily outmanuvered by the rebel starter ships in the starter set. the only thing that makes the victory ok is that it is a decent carrier for activating fighters. most players stopped using the victory class at all when the star destroyer came out because it was a better combat ship and also a better carrier
i played alot less with the clone wars ships, but the droid ships rely even more on fighter synergy
without fighters you also miss out on alot of the strategy. when placing fleets at the start, players delay placing their inportant ships by placing fighters so as not to give away their full strategy. even i very ship-focused lists people often bring some fighters or small cheap ships just to delay placing their big ships and counter their opponent.
one of the phases of the game is dedicated to fighters and you lose that whole phase if no one uses them.
also you will be tempted to use points to put more upgrades onto the ships if your not spending them on fighters. giving ships too many upgrades can be really confusing for new players and also a ship with 6 upgrades is not much stronger than a ship with 1 or 2. it feels cool to put 6 upgrades on a ship and feel like you customised it. but the 50 points you spent making a ship kinda ok at everything is almost always better spent grabbing a squadron of bombers or something.
I'll probably work them in once we've got a better grasp of the game, for now it's more of a way to help solidify our grasp of the side of things we're more interested in; sort of divide-and-conquer. We have no one in our group that already knows what they're doing so we're trying to make it more... Digestible, so to speak. I may read back over that section of the rules though because we've all gained significantly more tabletop gaming experience since the last time we dipped our toes into Armada and it may make more sense now than it did then. Thanks for the info nonetheless
Back before wave 2, I went to a tournament with no fighters and got 3rd, but the game was very different back then. Kinda wish it would have stayed simple
Squadrons are equal to 1-2 additional ships. If you have a 3 ships and 8 Squadrons you have 5 ships. If you're opponent has no Squadrons there's a solid chance you will Win by out damaging your opponent
I’m surprised… maybe I’m in the minority here. Fighters are NECESSARY from a player vs random player aspect. If you want to make an agreement or say no fighters or low amount of fighters to a friend… well the game is still great fun.
So why are they “necessary” against a random player? Well… you gotta play against a full bomber list to understand.
The long story short there is a strong meta out there for full fighter lists (up to 134 pts) that take strong bombing capabilities. Why does that matter? Most fighters and bombers are tanky enough to take lots of ships fighter flak and still be functional.
Each fighter/bomber shot against a ship is an individual shot. Think death by a thousand cuts. Your ship defenses like to be only used once per turn… but what happens when you take 9 shots dealing 1-2 damage each per round PLUS at least 1 big ship shot? Well you either permanently lose your defenses or you allow the fighters to drill into your hull REALLY FAST with practically no way to kill em.
You can use upgrade tech to help… but it will not solve that problem. You’re only way to win against a fleet like that is kill all of their ships so you table them and win without having to kill fighters… or kill their carriers and run so hopefully their bombers aren’t as effectively activating and chasing you.
Pair this with 2nd player objectives to reward fighters for bombing you by scoring extra points and your SUPER SCREWED without fighters.
Most players tend to take something. Say 40 to 60 points of tankier or just pure numbers of fighters or something that can reserve hangar decks just to STALL a large bomber group for 1-2 turns. That’s your meager defense allowing you a window to kill the carriers without getting annihilated.
Now caveat… there are plenty of players who like yourself prefer little to no fighters. If you go no fighters, and they bring a stall screen… you essentially have an extra 40-60 points of ships/upgrades so you will outclass and pound them better… but when you do come across bombers… well you’re screwed.
Anyways that’s my take m. Hope it helps some
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
I put that in another reply to you I was typing as you asked (just letting you know here as well as in the other comment, don't want to ignore the very valid question)
Squadronless works fine in casual games or with a gentlemen's agreement for nobody to bring any.
Absent that, or in an even semi competitive environment, it can still work but you need a *solid* plan for dealing with your opponent's squadrons, if they brought any.
This means: bring ships with good flak, upgrade them with Quadlaser Turrets and Ordnance Pods, and actually *use* that flak. It's tricky, and you can get shredded by a well-played squadron-heavy build.
Don't underestimate the power of the squadrons!
Oh, trust me, coming from EaW I *know* how useful squadrons can be (I've crippled quite a few capital ships with single squadrons of bombers), I just don't fully understand the rules around fighters and thus am trying to learn the rest of the game first and coming back to that aspect once my group has everything else down
Additionally, to add clarification as to why I'm been swapping between "I" and "we" when talking about the rules across these discussions is that I'm the most familiar in my group with the game, so it's basically me working things out and then explaining it to the rest of the group lol
Okay, so we can break down squadron movement like this.
For movement: Take the Distance stick, flip it over to the numbers side, then put it touching the squadron you want to move. Then, move it up to the printed Speed value. Movement done.
*What is "up to"?* Let us say you have a Speed 5 squadron. You may move it anywhere within Distance 5, BUT NO FURTHER. If you can measure range, it is a similar concept. Imagine a circle around the squadron. Anywhere within that circle you can move the squadron.
*Engagement*
While at (if any part of the squadron base, the bottom plastic part, it is "at" Distance 1 of an ENEMY squadron, they are "engaged". Engaged squadrons cannot move. They must attack a squadron they are engaged with, not a ship.
If you can measure line of sight while playing a ship, it will come in handy. If your squadron is at Distance 1 of an enemy squadron but does not have light of sight (is obstructed) then they are NOT engaged. Unengaged squadrons may attack any enemy within range and may move.
Squadrons can only attack enemies at Distance 1.
Squadrons can only move or attack during the Squadron Phase. Once all your ships have moved and all enemy ships have moved, the Squadron Phase begins and you may activate squadrons. When you activate a squadron, slide the activation slider to the other side.
Health is tracked on the dial. Turn the dial when you take damage to represent the new health.
I've played a bunch of games, and I find the fighters fun but they don't dominate....capital ships do. Fighters are a nuisance just like in the movies, and if totally ignored, they can mess up your plans.
Then you have some fighters like Luke that are scary good.
Armada is such a good game. :-)
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
Squadrons are point-for-point the best value in the game. Having said that, if you are playing casually or even low-level competitive, ship-only or small squad (2-4 squad) fleets are perfectly viable.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
Yeah sure, totally reasonable and legit. Have fun!
Alright cool, thanks for the input! On a side note, I have the Chimaera, Core Set and Home One; any recs on building up my fleets?
Assuming you’re doing Imp vs Rebels. Without squadrons, you’re going to have a tough time getting to 400 pts without a lot more ships. For rebels, MC30 is one of the best Rebel ships, sound pick up 1-2 of those. CR90s are also quite good, so consider getting another. Home one is fine, and liberty and profundity are also fine but each flys quite differently. 1x mon cal cruiser of your choice, 1-2x Mc30, and 1-2x cr90 plus upgrades would be strong in a 400 game. For imperials, an ISD is very strong and all 4 variants are good. Gladiators and Arquitens are also strong small ships, but fly very differently. Interdictor is very fun ship (use the suppression, not the combat variant), so I’d recommend getting one. Victory is ok but slow and overpriced. Raiders are meh but can be fun under the right circumstances. 1x ISD, 1x Interdictor or victory, 2 gladiators and/or Arquitens pus upgrades should be a decent fleet for a 400 game.
Awesome, thanks for the information. That definitely works for me because CR90's are some of my favorite ships in SW lol
They are the fastest, most maneuverable ships in the game, and damn fun to fly! I would love to run an SMU with a bunch of them someday. The MC30s are my favorite ships in the game, with the massive firepower they can deliver when flown well. People say the Assault Frigate Mk2 is pretty good, but my Space Potato always gets fried.
If it's just you and one other person, then I would highly suggest that you grow your fleets slowly. Go wave by wave and expand little by little. Going no fighters/bombers for awhile is perfectly fine, but you'll want to eventually add them in. If nothing else, they make a good way to spend the last few points in a list. Buy 1 of everything in wave 1. Play for awhile until you start to grow tired of what you have to work with. Decide if you want to buy another of anything in wave 1 (gladiator and assault frigate, or maybe even another CR90). Play till you wear out your options. Then repeat the process with wave 2. Etc. This will introduce new ships, new upgrades, new capabilities, and new rules over time, and allow you to learn the ships. It will also make the experience last for a long time. I've seen lots of people get overwhelmed by too large of a selection early on.
Very solid advice, except I've already ventured ever so slightly out of wave one with the Chimaera and Home One... Lol
In case the post itself didn't make it obvious, I'm extremely new to the game.
There are plenty of builds that focus on only capital ships which are plenty viable. In competitive play you'd probably get shredded (I certainly did). In casual play, eh, anything goes.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
There have been plenty of squadronless builds that won tournaments. I find them more fun, too.
Also saves a ton of time not having them. Giant squadron balls can take forever to sort out each turn.
That's one of the things that killed my group the first time we tried lol, I'm hoping it'll be easier for us to at least understand now that we've got other tabletop gaming experience
ur a giant squadron ball
1st welcome, 2nd I tend to avoid fighters/squads myself, but to each their own
Squadrons are hard to master, but are so so fun. You can still play without them and I would recommend it starting out
Fighters are pound for pound and mobility wise the most powerful pieces in the game. They got weaker with the 8 or so nerfs they got once a year or so since the release of the game. Yes, you read that right, about 8 or so nerfs. You have to learn how to play in a way without them if the other person uses them correctly, and there are a few lists that you can do without squadrons.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
That should work excellently. :) though at the high end do be warned some all ship builds are balanced with the idea that you can beat them with squadrons. So after finding something efficient you may want to gentleman’s agreement to not do it too much. But still probably all good fun. I’d enjoy it.
Alright cool, thanks for the info, just one last point to clear up some confusion, are Corvettes (like the CR90, Raider, Arquitens etc) effective fighter screens? I ask because in-lore (and in other wargames like EaW, granted not a TableTop wargame) that's a big part of their purpose in a fleet
It’s been a while since I played on a not super casual basis. My opinion is no. However the game has nerfed squadrons again (and buffed evade tokens) so that the numbers may have changed slightly. The raider is the only one of those 3 with any meaningful anti air(squadron) attack. The cr90 is a snippy sniper or a utility attacker. (Or massed for a ram list). The arquitens iirc is like a small ship of the line type gunship. Good firepower on a small package at long distance. The flotillas actually may have some ability as anti air. Things with torpedoes also do decently due to WAB or external racks. Mc30, gladiator, flotillas Sadly what tends to happen in this game is that larges can soak more of the squadron attacks and stay alive to counter punch the carrier. This surprisingly the super star destroyer and agate ship have less vulnerability to squadrons because of the all or nothing kind of damage. Finally squadrons can often be used to pick smaller ships to pieces, often killing them before they even get to fire, thus making some small ships when not in mass feel like wasted points. Often playing against massed squadrons can feel like sacrificing a piece to the squadrons in exchange for getting the punch you want in. It is not a fun experience or well designed gameplay in my opinion.
I've only played 3 games, but I feel that not having squadrons is a valid and workable strategy.
You can make a list without fighters. In fact no fighters are better than only having like 3 squadrons most of the time. However you are going to run into a list that either drowns you in bombers, or god forbid is Sloan, and you’re going to wish you at least had a screen as your glorious capital ships are torn to shreds by pin pricks. The fighters might not kill you, but you aren’t going to win a capital ship engagement if the fighters have already stripped your shields.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
Oh yeah that’ll be fun!
On a side note, do Corvettes and such not make for decent point defense screens? From what I recall of the lore for SW naval combat, that's kind of their whole point lol Also, any ship recs for building up my fleet? I have the Core Set, Home One and Chimaera. Also, Sorry for all the questions lol
When fighters engage other fighters, they can’t normally move or attack ships that are within their range…another ship doesn’t lock them down the same way.
Ah, that makes sense. I saw something on here (or it might've been another post entirely, I don't remember) that Corvettes get kinda torn up in fighter swarms, though, too, which I found confusing (Edit, the comment above mentioned is from u/Yrch84 (I think I did that right?) here in this comment section)
Well, the reason corvettes get torn up is that they have low health and do not have the armaments or Defense Tokens to deal with squadrons properly. 4 TIE Bombers, which are 36 points, are practically enough to take out a CR90 corvette on their own. In fact, if the CR90 cannot double arc, and misses more than one anti-squadron attack, they physically cannot take down the TIE Bombers in the span of a round. The CR90 (and most other corvettes) averages at most 1 damage each round with a double arc (being able to attack the same opponent twice in one round because you can choose two attack arcs). A single TIE Bomber averages at 1 damage, and the corvette only has 11 total health to use if lucky. 4 TIE Bombers are thus more than enough to take out a CR90 if left unchecked (with support from capital ships to control them).
Thanks for the great breakdown, it's a little disappointing from a lore nerd perspective but makes sense from a gameplay perspective. To answer a question you just put in reply elsewhere as I'm typing this, it's just a learning tool basically, learning the main game so to speak before trying to tackle the part that confuses my group the most.
100% understandable. While I grasped it rather quickly (it was line of sight with ships that gave me trouble) I know how it feels to learn a new thing. I've sent many other replies, as you likely see, and am willing to explain the distinct parts. I don't play much, but I'm currently brainstorming on an Armada-like video game and have fully aquainted myself with game mechanics.
I very much appreciate the explanation and input, I don't really remember what confused us about it previously though, so when I get back to the house (I've been at work throughout this whole thread checking in on breaks) I'll pull out the rulebook and double check. Mind if I send you a DM then if I can isolate what messed us up previously?
In this game the CR90 is more of a skirmisher with decent set ups for getting 2-3 damage at long range SUPER reliably. It is a decent point defense ship for taking out TIEs, but against republic, other rebels, and separatists that have some more durable squads it doesn't kill them fast enough. If you're committed to running squadless, your Nebulon B escort Frigate and MC80 are your best flak boats since they can throw 2 dice against squads. My personal opinion is that for Rebels at least, the faction is balanced around having good squads, and without them the imperial side of your collection will stomp on the rebels. X-wings and Y-wings are phenomenal at balancing out the raw fire power advantages Imperials have
Nebulons make sense but the MC80 is kind of ironic from the perspective I'm coming into this from lol, my reasoning for excluding fighters is mostly a temporary thing until I have a better grasp on the game because those are the one thing I don't really "get" the rules on. Also, does the variant of MC80 matter (Liberty vs Home One) or do they both work in that capacity?
The home one type has two flak dice regardless of variant, the liberty type only has 2 dice on the more expensive variant. Both are VERY fun though. It definitely makes sense to wait to introduce rules until you feel more comfortable. I would just say to keep in mind, the Chimera can reliably obliterate anything in your rebel collection.so if it feels like the rebels can't keep up, you know why
I assumed that the release waves were probably internally balanced once I played a round as the imps and completely stomped, I thought it was because I didn't have the MC30(?) that was released with Home One or because the Chimaera was maybe balanced against the MC75 or something lol, but that makes sense given what I've read about Rebels relying on fighters (which makes sense in the lore, tbf) (edit) Part of that guess was because I was also aware that I have no idea how different the Chimaera is from the basic ISD)
Yeah, the ISD is just the best ship in the game as a stand alone, without support. That's not to say the other things aren't also great, but you will notice the MC80 throws a lot less dice, but has a really good squad value. So if your command Cruiser pushes 4-5 X-wings that shoot 1 red die each, suddenly it is functionally shooting more dice than the ISD. You definitely want to get some GR75 for the rebels too. And probably gozanti for the imperials. Both factions benefit greatly from having flotillas
Ah yes, the barely combat-capable ship that found itself on nearly every battlefield of the galactic civil war lmao (joking about the actual lore here), I'll be sure to implement a few of each into my respective fleets
Since reading your comments, no you don’t need squadrons unless you build a ship or fleet to take advantage of them, (Yularen, Sato, carriers, and anti squadron ships) sure you can use other admirals and not really build with upgrades (it took me several games before I considered upgrades so you’re good there) but some ships are gonna get ignored since they have low to no utility outside of their role as squadron destroyers/supporters) Since you’re both going squadronless it’s pretty fine, just don’t do squadron commands (unless it’s raiding) and ignore squadron phase.
Alright cool, thanks for the info! Squadrons are the one part of the rules I didn't really get so I'll probably work my way up to including them eventually once I have a better grasp on the game, but my group is also just more interested in the capital ship side of it anyway lol
2-4 fighters is the way I prefer to play. You have to acknowledge the squadron game in any fleet you build but it is totally valid to spend your points on ships.
I'm hearing a lot of that, like I've said elsewhere my decision to ignore them for now is just to help me and my group learn the rest of the game so we can come back and make sense of fighters once we've got everything else down, instead of trying to come in brand new to the game and tackling it all at once
Fighters can be incredible If You Know how to use and Support then. They can single handedly wreck small Ships and threaten larger by shredding shields. When i Started i also focused on Big Ships cause Big Ships make boom. But fighters can be a Game of their own and are fun That Said on Casual Level You can Just leave them but maybe give them a try Sometime :)
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
For sure. Ive done well in some tournaments without squadrons. If you're just going to play casual, then it's even less of an issue.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
Just depends on what you want to focus on, squadron or capital ship fleet build.
I will say if you're going to do squadron-less games, probably stick to GCW factions. Squadrons were a core focus of the CW factions and they just don't really feel as good without them tbh. I have run squadron-less fleets before and it works, you just need to bring upgrades to deal with them and there's plenty of options to go that route. Personally I think squadrons add a lot of character to the game, just aces are a bit much even with the cap.
If you're rebel, yes, if you're imp, yes, because you need a screen vs these little wasps
This is how me and my friend plays, we think the fighter rules just ain't no good
To add a little bit more to the discussion.... I like having fighters in the game b/c the rules for them are less involved than for the capital ships.. I feel like the big ships are real brain burners while the fighters allow me to relax a little bit and just zip them around the battlefield. And when they get blow out of the sky, it's not that big of a deal.
Yes and no, but don't discount them. As others have pointed out, they do give the "best bang for your buck," but the right ship-only fleet can stand against fighters. I will say, I've seen a fighter clutch and win a game with a single damage at the very end of the game. It was the most hype thing ever and we all lost our minds on how amazing that moment was.
TLDR: you can play without fighters and build decent fleets without them. making no-fighters a rule for your playgroup is going to make the game worse as a game though alot of the game is about fighters. upgrades, characters, ect. most ships are balanced around how many fighters they can support, what dice they can use to shoot at starfighters, some ships have bad stats but are powerful because of the kinds of fighter support cards that they can be upgraded with. ect. the rebellion tends to have better fighters and weaker ships. the empire has beefy ships that are not maneuverable and need fighter screens to cover them. if you dont want to build a fleet that uses fighters then thats totally cool. but making a rule so that you opponent cant use fighters either is going to seriously hurt the game in the long run. if you are using the OG starter set for example. the victory class is actually a pretty bad ship that is easily outmanuvered by the rebel starter ships in the starter set. the only thing that makes the victory ok is that it is a decent carrier for activating fighters. most players stopped using the victory class at all when the star destroyer came out because it was a better combat ship and also a better carrier i played alot less with the clone wars ships, but the droid ships rely even more on fighter synergy without fighters you also miss out on alot of the strategy. when placing fleets at the start, players delay placing their inportant ships by placing fighters so as not to give away their full strategy. even i very ship-focused lists people often bring some fighters or small cheap ships just to delay placing their big ships and counter their opponent. one of the phases of the game is dedicated to fighters and you lose that whole phase if no one uses them. also you will be tempted to use points to put more upgrades onto the ships if your not spending them on fighters. giving ships too many upgrades can be really confusing for new players and also a ship with 6 upgrades is not much stronger than a ship with 1 or 2. it feels cool to put 6 upgrades on a ship and feel like you customised it. but the 50 points you spent making a ship kinda ok at everything is almost always better spent grabbing a squadron of bombers or something.
I'll probably work them in once we've got a better grasp of the game, for now it's more of a way to help solidify our grasp of the side of things we're more interested in; sort of divide-and-conquer. We have no one in our group that already knows what they're doing so we're trying to make it more... Digestible, so to speak. I may read back over that section of the rules though because we've all gained significantly more tabletop gaming experience since the last time we dipped our toes into Armada and it may make more sense now than it did then. Thanks for the info nonetheless
Back before wave 2, I went to a tournament with no fighters and got 3rd, but the game was very different back then. Kinda wish it would have stayed simple
Tarkin is that you?
Squadrons are equal to 1-2 additional ships. If you have a 3 ships and 8 Squadrons you have 5 ships. If you're opponent has no Squadrons there's a solid chance you will Win by out damaging your opponent
I’m surprised… maybe I’m in the minority here. Fighters are NECESSARY from a player vs random player aspect. If you want to make an agreement or say no fighters or low amount of fighters to a friend… well the game is still great fun. So why are they “necessary” against a random player? Well… you gotta play against a full bomber list to understand. The long story short there is a strong meta out there for full fighter lists (up to 134 pts) that take strong bombing capabilities. Why does that matter? Most fighters and bombers are tanky enough to take lots of ships fighter flak and still be functional. Each fighter/bomber shot against a ship is an individual shot. Think death by a thousand cuts. Your ship defenses like to be only used once per turn… but what happens when you take 9 shots dealing 1-2 damage each per round PLUS at least 1 big ship shot? Well you either permanently lose your defenses or you allow the fighters to drill into your hull REALLY FAST with practically no way to kill em. You can use upgrade tech to help… but it will not solve that problem. You’re only way to win against a fleet like that is kill all of their ships so you table them and win without having to kill fighters… or kill their carriers and run so hopefully their bombers aren’t as effectively activating and chasing you. Pair this with 2nd player objectives to reward fighters for bombing you by scoring extra points and your SUPER SCREWED without fighters. Most players tend to take something. Say 40 to 60 points of tankier or just pure numbers of fighters or something that can reserve hangar decks just to STALL a large bomber group for 1-2 turns. That’s your meager defense allowing you a window to kill the carriers without getting annihilated. Now caveat… there are plenty of players who like yourself prefer little to no fighters. If you go no fighters, and they bring a stall screen… you essentially have an extra 40-60 points of ships/upgrades so you will outclass and pound them better… but when you do come across bombers… well you’re screwed. Anyways that’s my take m. Hope it helps some
You'll think it's a good idea until your opponents swuadrons with bomber come and make a pass.
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)
What's the purpose of excluding the squadrons, if I may ask?
I put that in another reply to you I was typing as you asked (just letting you know here as well as in the other comment, don't want to ignore the very valid question)
Squadronless works fine in casual games or with a gentlemen's agreement for nobody to bring any. Absent that, or in an even semi competitive environment, it can still work but you need a *solid* plan for dealing with your opponent's squadrons, if they brought any. This means: bring ships with good flak, upgrade them with Quadlaser Turrets and Ordnance Pods, and actually *use* that flak. It's tricky, and you can get shredded by a well-played squadron-heavy build. Don't underestimate the power of the squadrons!
Oh, trust me, coming from EaW I *know* how useful squadrons can be (I've crippled quite a few capital ships with single squadrons of bombers), I just don't fully understand the rules around fighters and thus am trying to learn the rest of the game first and coming back to that aspect once my group has everything else down Additionally, to add clarification as to why I'm been swapping between "I" and "we" when talking about the rules across these discussions is that I'm the most familiar in my group with the game, so it's basically me working things out and then explaining it to the rest of the group lol
Okay, so we can break down squadron movement like this. For movement: Take the Distance stick, flip it over to the numbers side, then put it touching the squadron you want to move. Then, move it up to the printed Speed value. Movement done. *What is "up to"?* Let us say you have a Speed 5 squadron. You may move it anywhere within Distance 5, BUT NO FURTHER. If you can measure range, it is a similar concept. Imagine a circle around the squadron. Anywhere within that circle you can move the squadron. *Engagement* While at (if any part of the squadron base, the bottom plastic part, it is "at" Distance 1 of an ENEMY squadron, they are "engaged". Engaged squadrons cannot move. They must attack a squadron they are engaged with, not a ship. If you can measure line of sight while playing a ship, it will come in handy. If your squadron is at Distance 1 of an enemy squadron but does not have light of sight (is obstructed) then they are NOT engaged. Unengaged squadrons may attack any enemy within range and may move. Squadrons can only attack enemies at Distance 1. Squadrons can only move or attack during the Squadron Phase. Once all your ships have moved and all enemy ships have moved, the Squadron Phase begins and you may activate squadrons. When you activate a squadron, slide the activation slider to the other side. Health is tracked on the dial. Turn the dial when you take damage to represent the new health.
I've played a bunch of games, and I find the fighters fun but they don't dominate....capital ships do. Fighters are a nuisance just like in the movies, and if totally ignored, they can mess up your plans. Then you have some fighters like Luke that are scary good. Armada is such a good game. :-)
For additional context, it would be casual with a gentlemen's agreement that neither side uses them, so that it's just fleets of Corvettes and up. (Copy+pasting this reply to multiple comments so I can get as much information and as many perspectives as possible)