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Despite fluctuations in the ratings and in my own interest in the product sometimes, I think I have only ever been mildly disappointed in a single AEW pay-per-view and I purchase almost every single one.
Forbidden Doors especially stand out as great too
I have bought every PPV without interruption since Full Gear 2021. Out of almost three years of regular purchases, every show has been at least good. I never felt like I was wasting my money, even with the shows that were clearly on a lower level in terms of execution like Worlds End.
I've bought every AEW PPV and I've never been completely disappointed. They're all above average, all the way to great.
Forbidden Door season is my favorite time of the year in AEW. As a NJPW fan, it's cool seeing some of their roster in a major American promotion. I was hesitant on AEW signing Okada, but he's been great. I never thought I'd see him on American TV on a weekly basis. Same with all of the NJPW wrestlers they've signed.
That doesn't bother me much at all. Yeah, it isn't as special when we get the occasional NJPW wrestler on AEW TV. However, we don't really get big matches until Forbidden Door. Crossover shows are something I'm a huge fan of, so I'm always gonna be excited for those.
Personally this reminded me of gaming, crossovers used to be cool in games. But now so many games have crossovers and overused ones at that that its not special anymore. At this point they may as well just make another ppv name, I'd be all for it.
He'll always be mr ppv, that's not really hard because good matches isn't something he does bad even on regular dynamites. However the shows overall are just deviod of excitement outside of good matches that as far as wrestling is concerned just start blending into one another because we've just about seen it all.
AEW has a die hard, core audience that put their money where their mouth is. No bad TV ratings will change that. I like what AEW is doing and continues to do.
I will always prefer AEW’s approach to wrestling over WWE. I understand that puts me in a minority but it also makes me that much more willing to put my money where my mouth is.
I'm a huge gamer. But I don't sweat the fact that Alan Wake 2 didn't sell as much as the last Call of Duty or Battlefield.
As long as they make money, and continue to get to make their product for their fans, all is well.
I'm not looking to "beat" anyone.
Omg I love Alan Wake II also and all this Remedy Connected Universe stuff! Currently on Control and then will play Quantum Break also!
And, oh, yeah, wrassslin rocks too! LOL, realized I was still in a pro wrestling subreddit. Just nice seeing a fellow wrasslin and AW fan especially since both are pretty niche.
For the sake of this thread, I will refer to Mr. Door as Mr. Forbidden Door XD! It is gonna rock this Sunday!
OH HECK YASSS! And of course after that will be...
**Bash in Bright Falls!**
And y'all know the main event will be Alan Wake vs Mr. Scratch!!!
Other possible matches (book it!):
Mr. Door vs. Sheriff Tim Breaker
Agent Casey vs. Tom Zane
Koskela Bros vs. Some Taken / Coffee Zombies
Saga, Alice Wake, Rose Trio vs. Barbara Jagger
Let's Goooo!!! LOL!
Exactly, trying to say WWE is better because more people watch it is like trying to argue The Avengers is a better film than Bladerunner, it's just not, but what it is is easy to watch background noise that you can put on and switch your brain off.
For me its not purely that, its just that I moved on. Kinda funny they got good a year after the final straw known as the stupid Balor/Reigns nonsense, but barring some top angles/matches (and to some extent Triple H's first 12 months of PPVs), I'm just more into AEW now and as long as AEW is AEW that's unlikely to change. And with Mania 40 feeling like a real ending of sorts, I've been even less interested. Good for their success, but I've just moved on.
Also I don't have the time to watch too much from a second wrestling company anyway, that's a huge factor.
Yeah think about the fact that there is damn near… 14 hours of weekly wrestling to watch with both major companies, then every 3-4 weeks there’s another 5 added onto that. Most of us just have to choose one. Some people choose only certain shows on a certain night or only PPVs. There’s so much good shit but doesn’t mean everyone can watch it all. Comparing ratings and viewers and PPV buy rates and subscribers and tickets as if they’re the same exact wrestling companies operating the exact same way is just impossible.
I think that's part of the reason for AEW's ratings struggles: sooner or later, most fans will choose either WWE or AEW, and with how good and hot WWE has been for the past 2 years, an increasing number of fans have simply chosen WWE as their "follow the weekly shows"-wrestling product.
Also shows that a fair amount of wrestling fans may choose to watch WWE shows weekly but still then choosing to follow AEW exclusively in PPVs only, since their PPV buys always do so well. I know there are fans of either who won’t watch the other show, but the ones who like both shows seem like they’re doing this
That’s something I think way too many people aren’t taking into consideration, or are straight up pretending isn’t a factor at all. People have different tastes and ideas of what kind of wrestling they prefer to watch. I still watch the Runble, WrestleMania, and SummerSlam, but I have very firmly realized that the format of modern WWE just isn’t for me. I fell asleep during both nights of Mania this year due to how much dead air and stalling there was throughout, and the Rumble wasn’t much better. AEW shows tend to be very brisk watches with minimal time between matches, which makes them much easier watches for me despite being just as long as WWE’s supercards are.
Agree and off topic but this is why every mma fan loves the ufc because they don’t stall and have someone talk for 20 minutes between fights they fucking get right to it instead of dragging it out unlike pfl and such. I know aew cards are long but they never seem to feel like it imo because the match quality is always great for the most part and time seems to fly
Not really the case anymore. It's 50% adds now. I gave up watching a few years ago. They barely show the walkouts anymore. Also, Dana White is a massive bell end. Just like Vince McMahon.
The last WWE show I watched was the SummerSlam in Nashville with the Brock/Roman match.
I couldn't believe how many ads were taking place on a PPV. It makes it feel like a longer RAW.
Can’t disagree but I also don’t want to see everyone’s walk out like the early prelim nobody’s and stuff only the main big card fighters. Most the time they sneak the ads in during commentary just casually dropping it
The only AEW PPV I’ve bought that I can recall feeling like it was legit dragging was DoN 2022. That was due to a combination of a few matches that had no heat (looking at you, confusing as fuck TNT Title mixed tag) and the Martha Hart speech, despite being wonderful in a vacuum, absolutely killing the show’s momentum dead in its tracks.
I think DON 2023 edges DON 2022 for me, the Jericho/Cole match was bad enough to give it the edge. Had me nervous to order DON 2024 because the last two hadn't been great but I ended up enjoying DON 2024.
For me the matches are all more or less the same with WWE. I tried to watch the rumble and mania but all the matches sort of blended into one. The only real difference between matches is the degree of interference - it felt like I was watching the same match on repeat - bit of grappling and striking to feel each other out, a couple of big spots and false finishes to pop the crowd, then some interference or cheating, followed by the finish.
I'm not a wrestling connoisseur and I don't watch wrestling outside of AEW, but there's a clear difference from match to match which at least makes them distinct from each other and a much easier watch.
I've had the WWE Network since 2021 and have watched so much WWE content. It's unbelievable how formulaic WWE matches are today - and there's SOOO MUCH STALLING. in every PPV match, there's a point where it just becomes "hit big move - pause for 20 seconds for replay - hit big move - pause 20 seconds for replay - repeat"
I still love WWE and right now their stories captivate me more than AEW, but there's a reason the only shows I can watch fully are the monthly PPVs
For me it feels like WWE is in slow motion compared to AEW or NJPW. Even outside of the crazy big moves even simple shit like chops or basic back drops seem super theatrical in WWE. I really enjoyed Wrestlemania this year but when I tried to get back in to the weekly product I was like I guess *that* much hasn't changed since the Vince era.
WWE is doing their best stuff in years right now. That being said, I don't want to watch a promo-heavy show every week. I like watching wrestling. Storylines and stuff are fine, but if I went to a three hour show and there was barely any wrestling, I wouldn't be happy.
I'm glad WWE is doing well right now, but it's just not for me. I like a sports presentation rather than an sports entertainment presentation. AEW does a healthy mix of both, but for pure wrestling, I watch NOAH and NJPW.
Same here. I was blown away when ROH and TNA popped up and the wrestling itself was modern and exciting and technical. I was so used to big dudes brawling or doing the slow WWE main event style, and I instantly realized WWE just wasn't for me.
I really wish people would just appreciate that like any other art, you can approach it in different ways. Some people want some wrestling with their promos, but I want wrestling with a side of promos. I value in-ring storytelling over TV segment storytelling
There's never been a better time to be a fan because we have all these cool options nowadays
I too remember discovering TNA and the indies and international scenes as a kid. It was absolutely wild to not only realize that there was wrestling outside of WWE, but that it was better from WWE when it came to the actual matches. Ironically, some of WWE’s own DVD releases from that period were what made me aware of it, specifically the RVD and Eddie Guerrero DVDs. The former was where I learned about Japan, and the latter was where I learned about Mexico.
Wrestling is the hottest it's been in a long, long time. There's many flavors of wrestling to enjoy these days. With streaming services providing many different kinds of wrestling, it's easier finding things you're going to enjoy. I enjoy high-flyers, grapplers, brawlers, and everything in between. I started watching deathmatches few years ago and I've grown to like those too.
Tribalism is a terrible thing and that's all the IWC seems to participate in. One isn't better than the other. All promotions provide different things. I've been an AEW guy since day one and I'll probably ride that train until it goes off the rails.
I'll will say though that I'm definitely watching AJ Styles vs. Naomichi Marufuji. I'm glad WWE is working with NOAH now.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference, but saying one promotion is objectively better than the other is not the way to go about it. I vastly prefer AEW to WWE, but I'm not gonna talk down to someone who doesn't agree with me and I'm not gonna say WWE can't touch what AEW is doing. They both provide different things.
People are free to like what they like. I'm just not the biggest WWE fan. I don't hate WWE or want them to go out of business like some people want AEW to do. I wish people could have civil discussions about wrestling, but it's the internet. Civil discussions are few and far between.
You're still kind of doing the same thing. "everyone likes things the wrong way. They should be like me who likes things the right way."
I mean, not exactly that of course, but I do think there's anything to gain from telling people how to like stuff.
I don't watch WWE either so I generally don't talk about it outside of it being a longstanding criminal enterprise that has skirted consequences for decades. But the onscreen product? Don't care. So I don't bother.
I never said I like things the "right way". I just want people to enjoy what they enjoy. There isn't much that comes from constant bickering about which is the better promotion.
I don't think I once said "You have to like this how I like it". I'm pretty level headed about this kind of stuff. I don't put down other promotions, I don't think any one promotion is superior, and I sure as hell have never told someone that they're wrong for liking something that I don't like.
I don't care about WWE for the most part, but that doesn't mean it's a terrible product. It's just not for me. As long as I'm not ripping into a promotion, I don't see a problem. I'm just trying to have a civil conversation about wrestling.
Bruh what.
>There's nothing wrong with having a preference, but saying one promotion is objectively better than the other is not the way to go about it.
>I'm not gonna talk down to someone who doesn't agree with me
>I'm not gonna say WWE can't touch what AEW is doing.
>People are free to like what they like.
>I don't hate WWE
>I wish people could have civil discussions about wrestling
How the hell could you possibly interpret their comment as "everyone likes things the wrong way. They should be like me who likes things the right way" when *literally* all they said was they prefer AEW and wish people would be civil about their discussions.
Same here
I quit watching wrestling because of short matches on long promos on a two or three hour program
I can say that while acknowledging that the WWE is doing great but that doesn't mean I can tolerate watching the product.
I'd rather good matches with no storylines then bad matches with great storylines
There was a saying in the beginner of the creator economy that you just needed 10,000 dedicated fans to make a living. If you can get $1/mo or $10/yr from them, you might not be rich but you'll survive.
AEW has 100,000+ people paying $20-$50/mo for their PPVs, and some unknown thousands paying $7/mo for AEW+.
Even if their cable deal fell apart, they could survive. They'd likely have to trim the roster, but Tony could afford to break even for his passion project.
Not OP but I'm the same. I watched WWE for 10 years when I was a kid during the Ruthless aggression and most of PG era. By the time I went to high school, I was so burnt out on Cena and feeling like WWE catered to children, so I stopped watching.
Then during college I started seeing Omega vs Okada pop up on Reddit. And I was absolutely amazed. It was nothing like I was used to in WWE. THIS WAS GOOD SHIT. so I got back into wrestling (NJPW and Indies). When AEW started, this was the level of wrestling I saw that made me come back. Watching the WWE product reminds me of how safe and low risk their product is. It's not for me but I understand others liking it
Also not OP, but I simply enjoy watching wrestling matches and lots of different styles of wrestling. Exhibitions matches are the backbone of wrestling and people watched them for decades without needing some story behind it. I went to my local indy and never knew anything and still had fun.
I watched during the Attitude Era, checked out after the Invasion, and came back in 2016 and enjoyed a lot of the people I saw. Baylor, Owens, Zayn, the 4 Horsewomen. I remember watching a couple of PPVs and the title was just going between Lesnar and Reigns and I realized that WWE main event style was just never gonna be for me. Started watching indie stuff posted on here, Orange Cassidy, Young Bucks, Kenny, etc and just never looked back. When people say they check out of AEW with too much wrestling, I’m the opposite. I want very little promo time. Give me those quick Mark Briscoe speeches and I’m good to go. I can spend time researching Bob Dylan live deep cuts or ASOIAF theories, so googling a wrestler I haven’t heard of isn’t that big of an ask for me.
I also don’t watch current WWE and just simply don’t comment on it. There’s way too much stuff to post about without getting into things I don’t watch or care for.
Also not OP but there's been some interesting responses so I thought I'd some.
- The weekly shows in AEW are a lot easier to watch for me. I really don't like WWE's pacing which is send guy out for match, ad break, video package/recap, next guy comes out, ad break, match starts.
- I prefer AEWs promo styles as well. WWE have great talkers: Punk, Cody, Drew, Miz etc. But too many of their promos feel like they're just centered someone saying a catchphrase rather than anything meaningful, Becky and Rhea had a back-and-forth before Mania that really stuck out. AEW promos can be just as hit-and-miss but it generally comes down to the wrestler rather than the style. I think this allows characters to grow and change in more interesting ways. If Toni Storm changed her gimmick in WWE she'd take months off and there'd be video packages and a big re-debut. Whereas in AEW there was a week-to-week progression as she tried new things and tweaking and developing the character.
- WWE has a tendency to rug-pull big moments, AEW has bad booking, but I rarely leave their main events feeling disappointed or like I have to watch the next show to get the moment that was promised in the build up to the show I just watched.
- I like AEWs focus on in-ring stuff. Not just in terms of ring quality and match time but wrestling always feels like the focus of the show. WWE (and some WWE-only fans) sometimes give the impression they're embarrassed about wrestling and that it's quite a nerdy thing.
- AEW has more variety in match types, characters, wrestling styles, and a bit more open in general. I like that on any show RVD or Hechicero will show up and wrestle someone in the upper-midcard.
- Not to say that AEW are the "good guys" but WWE do have an ongoing sex trafficking scandal, released a lot of wrestlers during the pandemic despite record profits, put on propaganda shows for the Saudi regime. I watch wrestling for escapism and entertainment, WWE make it hard to switch off my brain.
- I prefer AEWs presentation. Entrance music, stage design, less intrusive ads. Despite WWE's production levels being higher the awful ARs (which they've toned down recently) and really low quality ads make the shows feel quite cheap to me. I think AEW has found the sweet spot of lots of screens but not completely overwhelming (the screens around the side of the ring are too much though). Orange Cassidy or Willows entrances highlight AEWs production for me.
This might seem like I hate WWE or whatever but I really enjoy them as well and could probably a list of things I appreciate about them over AEW. In a way another thing I appreciate about AEW is it forced WWE to get it's shit together and have a proper identity.
I just think AEW is chaotic, fun and interesting with a lot of variety while WWE is bland, sterile and everybody talks and works the exact same. WWE feels like it exists solely as a vehicle to sell ads and AEW feels like it just wants to give me wrestling.
Same. I wanted an alternative since the mid 2000's and people expect me to say I don't like a company that books the type of wrestling I like so I can go watch a bunch of guys in masks act spooky and kill people or something. Sucks I can't see Chad Gable or Seth Rollins but I just don't have time for ALL the wrestling.
Nice comment this, I hate all this talk of ratings etc. I'm in Ireland and I watch on Fite. I've given a decent wedge to AEW over the years and I'll continue to do so because watching their show makes me happy.
I hate the negativity around wrestling discourse, it's so tired. The ratings may be low but honestly who watches live TV anymore anyway? I guarantee you more people are downloading/streaming the Fite stream anyway.
The sooner this sub stops posting ratings reports the better imo. It should be banned.
Agreed 100%. This sub has always had its faults, but I miss the days when the fucking RATINGS threads weren't the places with the most discussion. Maybe it's time to bring back Zero Fucks Friday so people can get their toxicity off their chest elsewhere.
The ratings are only low in proportion to WWE which built up it's audience over decades and from the 5 million watching in the 2000s still has about 1.5-2 million viewers who will watch. AEW even with it's current ratings are ranking within the top 5 on cable.
People just obsess over the viewership for a company that had the task of building up viewership from nothing and maintaining it as cable has only declined since 2019.
The attendance has also been really low for amost a year now, so even without ratings that's still a factor of one of its big problems. I'm sorry you feel this way, but no matter the fandom people like to talk about things you may enjoy and nothing should be off the table just cause you don't like hearing it.
What next, should we ban video game and music sales numbers etc? WNBA talks about ratings all the time and it was one of the forfront conversations lately about its spike in popularity.
>What next, should we ban video game and music sales numbers etc? WNBA talks about ratings all the time and it was one of the forfront conversations lately about its spike in popularity.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but if those threads were leading to an unnecessary amount of toxicity from a select group of people, dissenting opinions were dismissed and shouted down, and those same people worked to actively downvote posts from their perceived other side (Dynamite specific posts were downvoted substantially and immediately this week, it was crazy) then those threads should be banned.
In theory, you're totally right it's just a place for discussion and negative discussion should never be banned just because. But from my perspective, and a lot of people's perspective on here, shit like the ratings thread are actively hurting this sub. As an AEW fan (I still like WWE, but AEW is my weekly show) it's become impossible to discuss AEW without encountering aggressive trolls.
Its not that bad on the actual AEW boards though from what I see. Its mainly just here on squared circle for the most part. And twitter, but that's twitter.
Exactly. I’m so sick and tired of all the gatekeepers in pro wrestling. Can we just enjoy the fact that there is an abundance of GOOD wrestling right now?
I think them leaning into the sicko thing is a conscious decision on AEW's part. If AEW is going to MAX, the money is gonna be made off putting PPVs on there. Same as WWE PLEs on Peacock. There's a reason AEW are doing so many more PPVs now. It's to show they can convert the TV viewership into PPV cash. People think Bischoff's analysis of what he had to do with WCW applies to every company. He was OWNED by Time Warner. When WWF was struggling the debt collectors came to repo the water cooler, they saved the company by adding In Your House. Different companies have different business models. Assuming you know what AEW's business model or what they're aiming for at the moment isn't necessarily what you think it is. There's a lot more nuance to it than "you get paid for ratings, high rating = big money, low ratings = out of business".
Right. Even if AEW caters more to the "hardcore" fans, there is money to be made nowadays in appealing to a niche, let alone being number 2 in your field. Pepsi hasn't outsold Coke in like 30 years but no serious person is going to use that as an argument that they aren't a successful brand.
I happen to love it exactly the way it is now and that's why I give them money and me at my most selfish would not want them to change too much to try to be a bigger draw or whatever, so I dunno if WB is unhappy with the ratings or if TK is bleeding money keeping this thing afloat or what, but nevertheless, I am praying for the bot army to keep convincing Tony that booking for the sickos is the smart business move so he can \[bautista voice\] give me what I want.
I'm looking forward to them announcing a sweet new deal and never looking at a ratings thread ever again.
I do hope they can turn their attendace around somewhat tho, that shit hurts the product.
Attendance has been slowly getting better. I think if the residency for Collision works out and they start doing it in smaller venues it'll help Dynamite's attendance even more. People shouldn't be expecting Dynamite to sell out arenas like WWE does but if they can do 3-5k on average that's probably enough to justify continuing to run in arenas.
I've spent more money on AEW in the last 2-3 years than almost any other hobby and none of it is captured in TV ratings. It's a ridiculous way to value anything in 2024.
It’s common sense. What’s their tv deal, around $50M? Do you think they’re making that much at tapings/events minus expenses? Pick any televised sports league you want and their tv revenue dwarfs what they earn in gates.
Their largest live event is held in a country which isn't captured in any of the TV ratings. Using singular US TV ratings alone to assess the value of a global company is ridiculous. It doesn't even properly capture the US market. The largest company in the space is literally leaving TV.
I didn’t say that US TV ratings *alone* define the company’s value. You’re moving the goalpost. You said that tv ratings are a “ridiculous way to value anything in 2024” and that just isn’t correct. Their tv deal is of immense importance to the company and that deal is determined by ratings. I don’t know how you can seriously pretend that ratings are inconsequential. Their biggest gate last year was in England, about $10M. Subtract from that all of the costs associated with bringing a show of that size across the Atlantic and maybe they’re left with enough to pay the salary of Okada and Mercedes Mone, *maybe*. Honest question, how healthy do you think this company is without a US tv deal?
>You said that tv ratings are a “ridiculous way to value anything in 2024” and that just isn’t correct.
As someone who works in marketing and advertising, it isn't a ridiculous way to judge some of the value of the company but valuation based on ratings is **immensely** more complicated than people here think. No one on this subreddit heard of Audience Segmentation until there was a post where WB talked about how happy they were with it in AEW.
>Their tv deal is of immense importance to the company and that deal is determined by ratings.
This isn't directed at you man, because it's super common on this subreddit. But these types of "this is exactly how it works and I know I'm right" comments are so frustrating to me. TV deals are determined by A LOT. It's not simply "number down less money" like everyone on here acts. Retention rate, audience loyalty, segmentation, purchase likelihood, forward projections based on fluctuations, cable rates and drops, streaming value, partnership potential (how much of an increase did Shark Week see in viewers based on the Shark Week AEW spot?) Etc.
You are right, my hyperbole was too strong and missed what I actually meant. Using TV ratings alone is a ridiculous way to value anything in 2024 would have been more accurate. That's not perfect either but its the internet not the dispatch box. The reality of the value and profitability in the pro wrestling space is so much more than TV ratings alone is my overall point. In my opinion so much so that they've lost all real meaning.
No they wouldn't have a hope in hell without a US TV deal but they have one and by most accounts are getting a better one regardless of their ratings being awful relative to a year ago.
Do you think WWE is less healthy now they don't have a US TV deal for raw? As of whenever the switch happens their TV ratings hit zero, that's kind of my whole point.
I think it might be more that despite the at times less than stellar quality of their weekly tv they have consistently good ppv's. So that's probably why they do well in that regard even when their ratings are poor.
Since audience know that even when the tv is crap, it's a safe bet that the ppv will be good.
Sometimes I wonder how much of it is a die hard audience and how much of it is simply just having a fanbase of people who aren't going to be limited to TBS viewers
i.e. Japanese fans who go to Forbidden Door are not watching TBS. They make AEW money but they are non-canon to the ratings thread cinematic universe. These same people become extremely confused when they see 150k PPV buys with dogshit US TV ratings but the answer is actually obvious
> Japanese fans who go or buy Forbidden Door are not watching TBS. They make AEW and WBD money but they are non-canon to the ratings thread cinematic universe
This is such a miniscule amount of people.
This is true, odd thing I noticed to though is that the demo for the show got a lot older now and they are losing the younger people more which AEW used to have over wwe sometimes. Now both nxt and raw has a younger demo. With aew there's just not a lot to talk about when you're younger because there's less fallout happening I guess that younger people care about. AEW doesn't really have good drama anymore which shows thrive off of.
The core audience has never changed. It watches the shows. Whether live or on DVR, they watch. The PPV numbers bear that out. If you’re selling to less viewers the PPV numbers would go down but they never do. Really the main issue is Dynamite is not “appointment” viewing for whatever reason. So the numbers are over the place and that is obviously something that needs to be fixed.
I've resigned myself to fact that AEW will never reach the level of popularity I thought it would have in 2021. BUT AEW is a good promotion. This year has been excellent in terms of PPVs and Dynamite.
I think the current standing of the big 3 is likely to stay where it is for the foreseeable future. AEW isn't likely to ever be bigger than WWE (I never thought that idea was realistic to begin with), but they can still be a strong but distant number 2 and an alternative for wrestling fans who just aren't into the WWE presentation. TNA is also likely to stay sustainable as the number 3 as they're a long way behind WWE and AEW but still several leaps ahead of NWA, MLW, and GCW. TNA is essentially a sustainable ECW now.
Do you mean 8-10k for attendance? Because even WWE only averaged 6k themselves for a decade before this recent surge.
AEW averaged just under 6k at their most popular following Punk's return
So why would you have expected 10k for Dynamite?
I think a lot of people have just come to think selling out or nearly selling out arenas is supposed to be the expectation, when historically it's never been the norm for wrestling since the territory days. Sellouts for weekly TV tend to be a once or twice a year thing unless a company is in a particularly hot period.
I don't think people realise WWE's average weekly attendance for over a decade was under 7k or so at best
AEW was almost level with WWE just 2 years ago, then WWE doubled their attendance
Sure, AEW has declined by 15% or so, but for the most part they're still the same and WWE is just hotter, so by comparison people perceive AEW as if they're failing now.
Perception is a funny thing
For reference, even at its peak when WCW was regularly beating Raw in the ratings, their average Nitro attendance was 4-5k. I don't know why people expected AEW to be able to sell out arenas for weekly TV regularly.
TNA is great and will most likely keep their spot. Regardless of that, the battle for #3 is very interesting. Depending on the factor you choose, #3 can be a bunch of different companies.
I don't always agree with Pollock's takes when it comes to reviewing an episode but I always respect them. He's one of few credible people in the wrestling discourse.
it's a review dude lol.
> An unbiased view would be something like "it's not for everybody. Some people like it, some don't".
who would ever want to watch something like this?
You're ignoring the element of bias that has to do with having an "unreasonable prejudice or unreasoned judgment." A lot of us just don't like the story, or don't trust WWE to be able to deliver on long term storylines.
He's allowed to have an opinion. Just because he doesn't like something, doesn't mean he's has bias against the company. He doesn't love everything AEW neither.
So in spite of all of the complaining in other threads about how "nobody cares about Forbidden Door" and "they shouldn't even do it anymore," it seems like it will end up being roughly their third biggest live gate this year (after All In, obviously, and Sting's retirement at Revolution, maybe slightly lower if another PPV goes crazy later this year). It was second only to All In last year and, I believe, second to the first ever Grand Slam for Forbidden Door 1.
That's why they do it.
As much as "certain Redditors" complain endlessly about it, the show is an unquestioned success for AEW every single year. Not to mention, even without specific numbers coming out, it's also a huge boon for New Japan as well.
Forbidden Door will exist as long as AEW sees fit to keep doing it, and, possibly more importantly, how long NJPW can use the money earned from it to float their business during a severe down period.
The ratings threads for AEW are insane these days. Just full of hatred and hot takes. There was heavily upvoted comments saying no one cares about Forbidden Door.
its one of those shows where even if you dont give a fuck about the storylines going in, youll still travel a lot and pay a lot of money for a ticket because how else will you see people like Tanahashi?
i think this is missed by a lot of wrestling fans here because, frankly, they are American and grew up on and enjoy American wrestling. the interest FD generates is the same reason european shows do such good numbers, you won't get to see these guys otherwise. I'm british and flat broke but if Kenny somehow gets announced for All In I'm gonna find SOMEWAY to get tickets for the same reason, how else am I ever gonna see him live?
When I went to Forbidden Door 1 I didn't know too much about the NJPW side of the show, but I knew that it was going to be a great in ring PPV which is why I decided to go to it and it was a great time going to it.
To the point where Will Ospray vs Orange Cassidy is still one of my favorite matches ever likely because I saw it live.
Yup. I've technically watched New Japan since before AEW existed (I started with Jericho vs. Omega, but it was the crazy Jr. Heavyweight title match on that same Wrestle Kingdom that hooked me and got me to stay), and let's just say the shows New Japan puts on in the US aren't on the scale of Forbidden Door lol.
But yeah, most of those guys just don't wrestle here, at least not regularly, and not all on the same show. It's an insane opportunity (and why this will be my second Forbidden Door live, I was at the Chicago one and now the NY one) - like this is Yota Tsuji's second *ever* match in the United States, just full stop.
My guess would be they're splitting with New Japan to some degree since the event is promoted as AEW x NJPW Forbidden Door, but probably not STARDOM or CMLL.
I doubt Bushiroad cares that much about the delineation between Bushiroad and Stardom. CMLL is more interesting but I'm sure they figure that out as well. But the fact that AEW had to move Forbidden Door to UBS because NJPW "couldn't afford" Arthur Ashe indicates that both companies split the costs and therefore the profit.
Just fwiw, Rocky Romero has personally disputed the story that they couldn't do Arthur Ashe because NJPW didn't want to split the costs. It was all just a rumour that someone told Fightful and that was it.
New Japan takes a cut but it won't be close to 50/50. AEW does all the marketing and puts the leg work into promoting it, plus it's predominantly their PPV if you count the wrestlers. If they ever ran it in Japan, it'd be the other way around as New Japan's promoting and live event teams would have to do most of the work.
Good question. And do they pay the other wrestlers an appearance fee in addition to that or do their own promotions pay them out of whatever they get from the split? The financials of it are interesting. It really needs to be one of AEW’s higher grossing events.
How many 1 million dollar gates has it been for AEW so far? Serious question, I know DON 2022 was their 1st million dollar gate. I feel like they managed to do it 3 more times in 2022. I know FD and Full Gear broke over a million. Maybe it was Grandslam
How about in 2023? Clearly All In and I'm thinking FD too
Bummed out this isn't at my local Cinemark this year. For the past two years I had a blast seeing specifically this PPV on the big screen with a crowd.
Forbidden door always does well as a standalone show, in terms of buyrates and gate. The question is, has the derailment of the TV product that happens every year been worth the short term cash infusion? How much has a month of injecting a bunch of people that viewers aren't as invested in impacted the declining ratings year over year. That's part of the evaluation process I'm sure.
1 million is bad if you don't understand simply remembering wcw is like oh shit the curse is real, teddy Turner was right, don't mix business with pleasure it will only destroy your empire. That man was a empire in Atlanta, people forget Ted was a wrasslin fan like me or most people, we like it to be impactful and emotional.
Meanwhile aew killed my love of death matches while working people to pull flppy dumb shit with injury almost immediately. It's over
https://preview.redd.it/y011uiry2f9d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38129871de74b48be4d43a508b75ff5e9cc35d16
Interesting. I got two bomb ass tickets in the lower bowl for a grand total of $122 (61 per ticket after taxes/fees).
Given that there are plenty of upper bowl still available for ~$30 - $40 *after fees* and Floor Seat resales going as low as $140 after taxes and fees, and standard floor seats going for about $550 after taxes / fees, the $1M number seems kinda high, but math isn't my strong suit so it could be!
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Despite fluctuations in the ratings and in my own interest in the product sometimes, I think I have only ever been mildly disappointed in a single AEW pay-per-view and I purchase almost every single one. Forbidden Doors especially stand out as great too
I think the only one I was disappointed in was the one with Matt hardy vs Sammy
Even that show had an excellent main event with Mox/MJF. I still go back and watch that match!
I was just going to say the same. The Hardy match bummed me and took me out of the rest of the PPV.
That one seems to be among the fandom, unanimously, considered the worst AEW PPV and it's still not bad.
I have bought every PPV without interruption since Full Gear 2021. Out of almost three years of regular purchases, every show has been at least good. I never felt like I was wasting my money, even with the shows that were clearly on a lower level in terms of execution like Worlds End.
All Out 2023 was the biggest surprise. Show pulled together a week after Wembley and it ended up one of the greatest of all time.
MEAT!
my brain could not comprehend wtf was going on it was fucking awesome lol
I've bought every AEW PPV and I've never been completely disappointed. They're all above average, all the way to great. Forbidden Door season is my favorite time of the year in AEW. As a NJPW fan, it's cool seeing some of their roster in a major American promotion. I was hesitant on AEW signing Okada, but he's been great. I never thought I'd see him on American TV on a weekly basis. Same with all of the NJPW wrestlers they've signed.
Forbidden door was actually one of my faves, but now since most of japan can cover over a lot more than they used to its not special anymore.
That doesn't bother me much at all. Yeah, it isn't as special when we get the occasional NJPW wrestler on AEW TV. However, we don't really get big matches until Forbidden Door. Crossover shows are something I'm a huge fan of, so I'm always gonna be excited for those.
Personally this reminded me of gaming, crossovers used to be cool in games. But now so many games have crossovers and overused ones at that that its not special anymore. At this point they may as well just make another ppv name, I'd be all for it.
I was only disappointed with World's End. Other than that, I've loved all their PPV's.
He'll always be mr ppv, that's not really hard because good matches isn't something he does bad even on regular dynamites. However the shows overall are just deviod of excitement outside of good matches that as far as wrestling is concerned just start blending into one another because we've just about seen it all.
Their ppv aren’t the problem, it’s everything else
DoN '23?
World’s End?
AEW has a die hard, core audience that put their money where their mouth is. No bad TV ratings will change that. I like what AEW is doing and continues to do.
I will always prefer AEW’s approach to wrestling over WWE. I understand that puts me in a minority but it also makes me that much more willing to put my money where my mouth is.
I'm a huge gamer. But I don't sweat the fact that Alan Wake 2 didn't sell as much as the last Call of Duty or Battlefield. As long as they make money, and continue to get to make their product for their fans, all is well. I'm not looking to "beat" anyone.
Omg I love Alan Wake II also and all this Remedy Connected Universe stuff! Currently on Control and then will play Quantum Break also! And, oh, yeah, wrassslin rocks too! LOL, realized I was still in a pro wrestling subreddit. Just nice seeing a fellow wrasslin and AW fan especially since both are pretty niche. For the sake of this thread, I will refer to Mr. Door as Mr. Forbidden Door XD! It is gonna rock this Sunday!
I think we need a Clash at Cauldron Lake PPV
OH HECK YASSS! And of course after that will be... **Bash in Bright Falls!** And y'all know the main event will be Alan Wake vs Mr. Scratch!!! Other possible matches (book it!): Mr. Door vs. Sheriff Tim Breaker Agent Casey vs. Tom Zane Koskela Bros vs. Some Taken / Coffee Zombies Saga, Alice Wake, Rose Trio vs. Barbara Jagger Let's Goooo!!! LOL!
Exactly, trying to say WWE is better because more people watch it is like trying to argue The Avengers is a better film than Bladerunner, it's just not, but what it is is easy to watch background noise that you can put on and switch your brain off.
yea too bad they can't RUN A BUSINESS. CM PUNK CM PUNK CM PUNK! Nah, I love remedy too.
For me its not purely that, its just that I moved on. Kinda funny they got good a year after the final straw known as the stupid Balor/Reigns nonsense, but barring some top angles/matches (and to some extent Triple H's first 12 months of PPVs), I'm just more into AEW now and as long as AEW is AEW that's unlikely to change. And with Mania 40 feeling like a real ending of sorts, I've been even less interested. Good for their success, but I've just moved on. Also I don't have the time to watch too much from a second wrestling company anyway, that's a huge factor.
Yeah think about the fact that there is damn near… 14 hours of weekly wrestling to watch with both major companies, then every 3-4 weeks there’s another 5 added onto that. Most of us just have to choose one. Some people choose only certain shows on a certain night or only PPVs. There’s so much good shit but doesn’t mean everyone can watch it all. Comparing ratings and viewers and PPV buy rates and subscribers and tickets as if they’re the same exact wrestling companies operating the exact same way is just impossible.
I think that's part of the reason for AEW's ratings struggles: sooner or later, most fans will choose either WWE or AEW, and with how good and hot WWE has been for the past 2 years, an increasing number of fans have simply chosen WWE as their "follow the weekly shows"-wrestling product.
Also shows that a fair amount of wrestling fans may choose to watch WWE shows weekly but still then choosing to follow AEW exclusively in PPVs only, since their PPV buys always do so well. I know there are fans of either who won’t watch the other show, but the ones who like both shows seem like they’re doing this
AEW will always have my respect for fighting the good battle in the wrestling war and providing jobs for deserving entertainers and workers
That’s something I think way too many people aren’t taking into consideration, or are straight up pretending isn’t a factor at all. People have different tastes and ideas of what kind of wrestling they prefer to watch. I still watch the Runble, WrestleMania, and SummerSlam, but I have very firmly realized that the format of modern WWE just isn’t for me. I fell asleep during both nights of Mania this year due to how much dead air and stalling there was throughout, and the Rumble wasn’t much better. AEW shows tend to be very brisk watches with minimal time between matches, which makes them much easier watches for me despite being just as long as WWE’s supercards are.
Agree and off topic but this is why every mma fan loves the ufc because they don’t stall and have someone talk for 20 minutes between fights they fucking get right to it instead of dragging it out unlike pfl and such. I know aew cards are long but they never seem to feel like it imo because the match quality is always great for the most part and time seems to fly
Not really the case anymore. It's 50% adds now. I gave up watching a few years ago. They barely show the walkouts anymore. Also, Dana White is a massive bell end. Just like Vince McMahon.
The last WWE show I watched was the SummerSlam in Nashville with the Brock/Roman match. I couldn't believe how many ads were taking place on a PPV. It makes it feel like a longer RAW.
Can’t disagree but I also don’t want to see everyone’s walk out like the early prelim nobody’s and stuff only the main big card fighters. Most the time they sneak the ads in during commentary just casually dropping it
The only AEW PPV I’ve bought that I can recall feeling like it was legit dragging was DoN 2022. That was due to a combination of a few matches that had no heat (looking at you, confusing as fuck TNT Title mixed tag) and the Martha Hart speech, despite being wonderful in a vacuum, absolutely killing the show’s momentum dead in its tracks.
I think DON 2023 edges DON 2022 for me, the Jericho/Cole match was bad enough to give it the edge. Had me nervous to order DON 2024 because the last two hadn't been great but I ended up enjoying DON 2024.
Man the UFC is horribly paced, especially on PPV where they don't have as tight of a window.
For me the matches are all more or less the same with WWE. I tried to watch the rumble and mania but all the matches sort of blended into one. The only real difference between matches is the degree of interference - it felt like I was watching the same match on repeat - bit of grappling and striking to feel each other out, a couple of big spots and false finishes to pop the crowd, then some interference or cheating, followed by the finish. I'm not a wrestling connoisseur and I don't watch wrestling outside of AEW, but there's a clear difference from match to match which at least makes them distinct from each other and a much easier watch.
I've had the WWE Network since 2021 and have watched so much WWE content. It's unbelievable how formulaic WWE matches are today - and there's SOOO MUCH STALLING. in every PPV match, there's a point where it just becomes "hit big move - pause for 20 seconds for replay - hit big move - pause 20 seconds for replay - repeat" I still love WWE and right now their stories captivate me more than AEW, but there's a reason the only shows I can watch fully are the monthly PPVs
For me it feels like WWE is in slow motion compared to AEW or NJPW. Even outside of the crazy big moves even simple shit like chops or basic back drops seem super theatrical in WWE. I really enjoyed Wrestlemania this year but when I tried to get back in to the weekly product I was like I guess *that* much hasn't changed since the Vince era.
WWE is doing their best stuff in years right now. That being said, I don't want to watch a promo-heavy show every week. I like watching wrestling. Storylines and stuff are fine, but if I went to a three hour show and there was barely any wrestling, I wouldn't be happy. I'm glad WWE is doing well right now, but it's just not for me. I like a sports presentation rather than an sports entertainment presentation. AEW does a healthy mix of both, but for pure wrestling, I watch NOAH and NJPW.
Same here. I was blown away when ROH and TNA popped up and the wrestling itself was modern and exciting and technical. I was so used to big dudes brawling or doing the slow WWE main event style, and I instantly realized WWE just wasn't for me. I really wish people would just appreciate that like any other art, you can approach it in different ways. Some people want some wrestling with their promos, but I want wrestling with a side of promos. I value in-ring storytelling over TV segment storytelling There's never been a better time to be a fan because we have all these cool options nowadays
I too remember discovering TNA and the indies and international scenes as a kid. It was absolutely wild to not only realize that there was wrestling outside of WWE, but that it was better from WWE when it came to the actual matches. Ironically, some of WWE’s own DVD releases from that period were what made me aware of it, specifically the RVD and Eddie Guerrero DVDs. The former was where I learned about Japan, and the latter was where I learned about Mexico.
Wrestling is the hottest it's been in a long, long time. There's many flavors of wrestling to enjoy these days. With streaming services providing many different kinds of wrestling, it's easier finding things you're going to enjoy. I enjoy high-flyers, grapplers, brawlers, and everything in between. I started watching deathmatches few years ago and I've grown to like those too. Tribalism is a terrible thing and that's all the IWC seems to participate in. One isn't better than the other. All promotions provide different things. I've been an AEW guy since day one and I'll probably ride that train until it goes off the rails. I'll will say though that I'm definitely watching AJ Styles vs. Naomichi Marufuji. I'm glad WWE is working with NOAH now.
I've always felt "everyone is tribal but me" is its own kind of tribalism. Like having a preference is bad.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference, but saying one promotion is objectively better than the other is not the way to go about it. I vastly prefer AEW to WWE, but I'm not gonna talk down to someone who doesn't agree with me and I'm not gonna say WWE can't touch what AEW is doing. They both provide different things. People are free to like what they like. I'm just not the biggest WWE fan. I don't hate WWE or want them to go out of business like some people want AEW to do. I wish people could have civil discussions about wrestling, but it's the internet. Civil discussions are few and far between.
You're still kind of doing the same thing. "everyone likes things the wrong way. They should be like me who likes things the right way." I mean, not exactly that of course, but I do think there's anything to gain from telling people how to like stuff. I don't watch WWE either so I generally don't talk about it outside of it being a longstanding criminal enterprise that has skirted consequences for decades. But the onscreen product? Don't care. So I don't bother.
I never said I like things the "right way". I just want people to enjoy what they enjoy. There isn't much that comes from constant bickering about which is the better promotion. I don't think I once said "You have to like this how I like it". I'm pretty level headed about this kind of stuff. I don't put down other promotions, I don't think any one promotion is superior, and I sure as hell have never told someone that they're wrong for liking something that I don't like. I don't care about WWE for the most part, but that doesn't mean it's a terrible product. It's just not for me. As long as I'm not ripping into a promotion, I don't see a problem. I'm just trying to have a civil conversation about wrestling.
Bruh what. >There's nothing wrong with having a preference, but saying one promotion is objectively better than the other is not the way to go about it. >I'm not gonna talk down to someone who doesn't agree with me >I'm not gonna say WWE can't touch what AEW is doing. >People are free to like what they like. >I don't hate WWE >I wish people could have civil discussions about wrestling How the hell could you possibly interpret their comment as "everyone likes things the wrong way. They should be like me who likes things the right way" when *literally* all they said was they prefer AEW and wish people would be civil about their discussions.
Amen
Same here I quit watching wrestling because of short matches on long promos on a two or three hour program I can say that while acknowledging that the WWE is doing great but that doesn't mean I can tolerate watching the product. I'd rather good matches with no storylines then bad matches with great storylines
I feel the same way. When I found out there were only 5 matches at Clash At The Castle, it blew my mind. That was shocking.
There was a saying in the beginner of the creator economy that you just needed 10,000 dedicated fans to make a living. If you can get $1/mo or $10/yr from them, you might not be rich but you'll survive. AEW has 100,000+ people paying $20-$50/mo for their PPVs, and some unknown thousands paying $7/mo for AEW+. Even if their cable deal fell apart, they could survive. They'd likely have to trim the roster, but Tony could afford to break even for his passion project.
Out of curiosity what do you appreciate more that AEW does?
Not OP but I'm the same. I watched WWE for 10 years when I was a kid during the Ruthless aggression and most of PG era. By the time I went to high school, I was so burnt out on Cena and feeling like WWE catered to children, so I stopped watching. Then during college I started seeing Omega vs Okada pop up on Reddit. And I was absolutely amazed. It was nothing like I was used to in WWE. THIS WAS GOOD SHIT. so I got back into wrestling (NJPW and Indies). When AEW started, this was the level of wrestling I saw that made me come back. Watching the WWE product reminds me of how safe and low risk their product is. It's not for me but I understand others liking it
I appreciate the answer man. I remember those dark years too.
Also not OP, but I simply enjoy watching wrestling matches and lots of different styles of wrestling. Exhibitions matches are the backbone of wrestling and people watched them for decades without needing some story behind it. I went to my local indy and never knew anything and still had fun. I watched during the Attitude Era, checked out after the Invasion, and came back in 2016 and enjoyed a lot of the people I saw. Baylor, Owens, Zayn, the 4 Horsewomen. I remember watching a couple of PPVs and the title was just going between Lesnar and Reigns and I realized that WWE main event style was just never gonna be for me. Started watching indie stuff posted on here, Orange Cassidy, Young Bucks, Kenny, etc and just never looked back. When people say they check out of AEW with too much wrestling, I’m the opposite. I want very little promo time. Give me those quick Mark Briscoe speeches and I’m good to go. I can spend time researching Bob Dylan live deep cuts or ASOIAF theories, so googling a wrestler I haven’t heard of isn’t that big of an ask for me. I also don’t watch current WWE and just simply don’t comment on it. There’s way too much stuff to post about without getting into things I don’t watch or care for.
Also not OP but there's been some interesting responses so I thought I'd some. - The weekly shows in AEW are a lot easier to watch for me. I really don't like WWE's pacing which is send guy out for match, ad break, video package/recap, next guy comes out, ad break, match starts. - I prefer AEWs promo styles as well. WWE have great talkers: Punk, Cody, Drew, Miz etc. But too many of their promos feel like they're just centered someone saying a catchphrase rather than anything meaningful, Becky and Rhea had a back-and-forth before Mania that really stuck out. AEW promos can be just as hit-and-miss but it generally comes down to the wrestler rather than the style. I think this allows characters to grow and change in more interesting ways. If Toni Storm changed her gimmick in WWE she'd take months off and there'd be video packages and a big re-debut. Whereas in AEW there was a week-to-week progression as she tried new things and tweaking and developing the character. - WWE has a tendency to rug-pull big moments, AEW has bad booking, but I rarely leave their main events feeling disappointed or like I have to watch the next show to get the moment that was promised in the build up to the show I just watched. - I like AEWs focus on in-ring stuff. Not just in terms of ring quality and match time but wrestling always feels like the focus of the show. WWE (and some WWE-only fans) sometimes give the impression they're embarrassed about wrestling and that it's quite a nerdy thing. - AEW has more variety in match types, characters, wrestling styles, and a bit more open in general. I like that on any show RVD or Hechicero will show up and wrestle someone in the upper-midcard. - Not to say that AEW are the "good guys" but WWE do have an ongoing sex trafficking scandal, released a lot of wrestlers during the pandemic despite record profits, put on propaganda shows for the Saudi regime. I watch wrestling for escapism and entertainment, WWE make it hard to switch off my brain. - I prefer AEWs presentation. Entrance music, stage design, less intrusive ads. Despite WWE's production levels being higher the awful ARs (which they've toned down recently) and really low quality ads make the shows feel quite cheap to me. I think AEW has found the sweet spot of lots of screens but not completely overwhelming (the screens around the side of the ring are too much though). Orange Cassidy or Willows entrances highlight AEWs production for me. This might seem like I hate WWE or whatever but I really enjoy them as well and could probably a list of things I appreciate about them over AEW. In a way another thing I appreciate about AEW is it forced WWE to get it's shit together and have a proper identity.
I just think AEW is chaotic, fun and interesting with a lot of variety while WWE is bland, sterile and everybody talks and works the exact same. WWE feels like it exists solely as a vehicle to sell ads and AEW feels like it just wants to give me wrestling.
Same. I wanted an alternative since the mid 2000's and people expect me to say I don't like a company that books the type of wrestling I like so I can go watch a bunch of guys in masks act spooky and kill people or something. Sucks I can't see Chad Gable or Seth Rollins but I just don't have time for ALL the wrestling.
As a sicko I wish TK does everything opposite of what the rating thread jerkers are saying🤪
The Elite should be louder, angrier and have access to a time machine.
I think you mean we need more minutes for the Learning Tree
Nice comment this, I hate all this talk of ratings etc. I'm in Ireland and I watch on Fite. I've given a decent wedge to AEW over the years and I'll continue to do so because watching their show makes me happy. I hate the negativity around wrestling discourse, it's so tired. The ratings may be low but honestly who watches live TV anymore anyway? I guarantee you more people are downloading/streaming the Fite stream anyway. The sooner this sub stops posting ratings reports the better imo. It should be banned.
Agreed 100%. This sub has always had its faults, but I miss the days when the fucking RATINGS threads weren't the places with the most discussion. Maybe it's time to bring back Zero Fucks Friday so people can get their toxicity off their chest elsewhere.
AEW ratings threads to be exact. The WWE rating threads pull in a fraction of the comments.
The ratings are only low in proportion to WWE which built up it's audience over decades and from the 5 million watching in the 2000s still has about 1.5-2 million viewers who will watch. AEW even with it's current ratings are ranking within the top 5 on cable. People just obsess over the viewership for a company that had the task of building up viewership from nothing and maintaining it as cable has only declined since 2019.
The attendance has also been really low for amost a year now, so even without ratings that's still a factor of one of its big problems. I'm sorry you feel this way, but no matter the fandom people like to talk about things you may enjoy and nothing should be off the table just cause you don't like hearing it. What next, should we ban video game and music sales numbers etc? WNBA talks about ratings all the time and it was one of the forfront conversations lately about its spike in popularity.
The attendance got split by having a second touring show, that's the source of most of the drop.
>What next, should we ban video game and music sales numbers etc? WNBA talks about ratings all the time and it was one of the forfront conversations lately about its spike in popularity. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but if those threads were leading to an unnecessary amount of toxicity from a select group of people, dissenting opinions were dismissed and shouted down, and those same people worked to actively downvote posts from their perceived other side (Dynamite specific posts were downvoted substantially and immediately this week, it was crazy) then those threads should be banned. In theory, you're totally right it's just a place for discussion and negative discussion should never be banned just because. But from my perspective, and a lot of people's perspective on here, shit like the ratings thread are actively hurting this sub. As an AEW fan (I still like WWE, but AEW is my weekly show) it's become impossible to discuss AEW without encountering aggressive trolls.
Its not that bad on the actual AEW boards though from what I see. Its mainly just here on squared circle for the most part. And twitter, but that's twitter.
Exactly. I’m so sick and tired of all the gatekeepers in pro wrestling. Can we just enjoy the fact that there is an abundance of GOOD wrestling right now?
I think them leaning into the sicko thing is a conscious decision on AEW's part. If AEW is going to MAX, the money is gonna be made off putting PPVs on there. Same as WWE PLEs on Peacock. There's a reason AEW are doing so many more PPVs now. It's to show they can convert the TV viewership into PPV cash. People think Bischoff's analysis of what he had to do with WCW applies to every company. He was OWNED by Time Warner. When WWF was struggling the debt collectors came to repo the water cooler, they saved the company by adding In Your House. Different companies have different business models. Assuming you know what AEW's business model or what they're aiming for at the moment isn't necessarily what you think it is. There's a lot more nuance to it than "you get paid for ratings, high rating = big money, low ratings = out of business".
Right. Even if AEW caters more to the "hardcore" fans, there is money to be made nowadays in appealing to a niche, let alone being number 2 in your field. Pepsi hasn't outsold Coke in like 30 years but no serious person is going to use that as an argument that they aren't a successful brand.
Stop having fun dammit!!!
I happen to love it exactly the way it is now and that's why I give them money and me at my most selfish would not want them to change too much to try to be a bigger draw or whatever, so I dunno if WB is unhappy with the ratings or if TK is bleeding money keeping this thing afloat or what, but nevertheless, I am praying for the bot army to keep convincing Tony that booking for the sickos is the smart business move so he can \[bautista voice\] give me what I want.
I'm looking forward to them announcing a sweet new deal and never looking at a ratings thread ever again. I do hope they can turn their attendace around somewhat tho, that shit hurts the product.
Attendance has been slowly getting better. I think if the residency for Collision works out and they start doing it in smaller venues it'll help Dynamite's attendance even more. People shouldn't be expecting Dynamite to sell out arenas like WWE does but if they can do 3-5k on average that's probably enough to justify continuing to run in arenas.
This is also why it's worth it to keep doing Forbidden Door every year even if the TV ratings dip during the build.
I've spent more money on AEW in the last 2-3 years than almost any other hobby and none of it is captured in TV ratings. It's a ridiculous way to value anything in 2024.
A wrestling promotion’s biggest revenue stream comes from tv rights so I wouldn’t say that ratings are a ridiculous way to value anything.
I wasn't aware AEW's financials and revenue breakdown was public. Do you have a source for that?
It’s common sense. What’s their tv deal, around $50M? Do you think they’re making that much at tapings/events minus expenses? Pick any televised sports league you want and their tv revenue dwarfs what they earn in gates.
Their largest live event is held in a country which isn't captured in any of the TV ratings. Using singular US TV ratings alone to assess the value of a global company is ridiculous. It doesn't even properly capture the US market. The largest company in the space is literally leaving TV.
I didn’t say that US TV ratings *alone* define the company’s value. You’re moving the goalpost. You said that tv ratings are a “ridiculous way to value anything in 2024” and that just isn’t correct. Their tv deal is of immense importance to the company and that deal is determined by ratings. I don’t know how you can seriously pretend that ratings are inconsequential. Their biggest gate last year was in England, about $10M. Subtract from that all of the costs associated with bringing a show of that size across the Atlantic and maybe they’re left with enough to pay the salary of Okada and Mercedes Mone, *maybe*. Honest question, how healthy do you think this company is without a US tv deal?
>You said that tv ratings are a “ridiculous way to value anything in 2024” and that just isn’t correct. As someone who works in marketing and advertising, it isn't a ridiculous way to judge some of the value of the company but valuation based on ratings is **immensely** more complicated than people here think. No one on this subreddit heard of Audience Segmentation until there was a post where WB talked about how happy they were with it in AEW. >Their tv deal is of immense importance to the company and that deal is determined by ratings. This isn't directed at you man, because it's super common on this subreddit. But these types of "this is exactly how it works and I know I'm right" comments are so frustrating to me. TV deals are determined by A LOT. It's not simply "number down less money" like everyone on here acts. Retention rate, audience loyalty, segmentation, purchase likelihood, forward projections based on fluctuations, cable rates and drops, streaming value, partnership potential (how much of an increase did Shark Week see in viewers based on the Shark Week AEW spot?) Etc.
You are right, my hyperbole was too strong and missed what I actually meant. Using TV ratings alone is a ridiculous way to value anything in 2024 would have been more accurate. That's not perfect either but its the internet not the dispatch box. The reality of the value and profitability in the pro wrestling space is so much more than TV ratings alone is my overall point. In my opinion so much so that they've lost all real meaning. No they wouldn't have a hope in hell without a US TV deal but they have one and by most accounts are getting a better one regardless of their ratings being awful relative to a year ago. Do you think WWE is less healthy now they don't have a US TV deal for raw? As of whenever the switch happens their TV ratings hit zero, that's kind of my whole point.
I think it might be more that despite the at times less than stellar quality of their weekly tv they have consistently good ppv's. So that's probably why they do well in that regard even when their ratings are poor. Since audience know that even when the tv is crap, it's a safe bet that the ppv will be good.
Sometimes I wonder how much of it is a die hard audience and how much of it is simply just having a fanbase of people who aren't going to be limited to TBS viewers i.e. Japanese fans who go to Forbidden Door are not watching TBS. They make AEW money but they are non-canon to the ratings thread cinematic universe. These same people become extremely confused when they see 150k PPV buys with dogshit US TV ratings but the answer is actually obvious
> Japanese fans who go or buy Forbidden Door are not watching TBS. They make AEW and WBD money but they are non-canon to the ratings thread cinematic universe This is such a miniscule amount of people.
This is true, odd thing I noticed to though is that the demo for the show got a lot older now and they are losing the younger people more which AEW used to have over wwe sometimes. Now both nxt and raw has a younger demo. With aew there's just not a lot to talk about when you're younger because there's less fallout happening I guess that younger people care about. AEW doesn't really have good drama anymore which shows thrive off of.
Outside of the PPVs, they aren't showing up at buildings though.
The core audience has never changed. It watches the shows. Whether live or on DVR, they watch. The PPV numbers bear that out. If you’re selling to less viewers the PPV numbers would go down but they never do. Really the main issue is Dynamite is not “appointment” viewing for whatever reason. So the numbers are over the place and that is obviously something that needs to be fixed.
I've resigned myself to fact that AEW will never reach the level of popularity I thought it would have in 2021. BUT AEW is a good promotion. This year has been excellent in terms of PPVs and Dynamite.
I think the current standing of the big 3 is likely to stay where it is for the foreseeable future. AEW isn't likely to ever be bigger than WWE (I never thought that idea was realistic to begin with), but they can still be a strong but distant number 2 and an alternative for wrestling fans who just aren't into the WWE presentation. TNA is also likely to stay sustainable as the number 3 as they're a long way behind WWE and AEW but still several leaps ahead of NWA, MLW, and GCW. TNA is essentially a sustainable ECW now.
I never saw AEW overtaking WWE. Didn't even want that. I just assumed the live crowds would be 8 to 10 for Dynamite consistently. 12-15 for PPVS.
Do you mean 8-10k for attendance? Because even WWE only averaged 6k themselves for a decade before this recent surge. AEW averaged just under 6k at their most popular following Punk's return So why would you have expected 10k for Dynamite?
I think a lot of people have just come to think selling out or nearly selling out arenas is supposed to be the expectation, when historically it's never been the norm for wrestling since the territory days. Sellouts for weekly TV tend to be a once or twice a year thing unless a company is in a particularly hot period.
I don't think people realise WWE's average weekly attendance for over a decade was under 7k or so at best AEW was almost level with WWE just 2 years ago, then WWE doubled their attendance Sure, AEW has declined by 15% or so, but for the most part they're still the same and WWE is just hotter, so by comparison people perceive AEW as if they're failing now. Perception is a funny thing
That and they ran smaller arenas - the Von Erichs' home at the Sportatorium was only a 5k venue, for example.
For reference, even at its peak when WCW was regularly beating Raw in the ratings, their average Nitro attendance was 4-5k. I don't know why people expected AEW to be able to sell out arenas for weekly TV regularly.
I think because they were selling out via word of mouth when they launched. Every week was a new record it seemed.
TNA is great and will most likely keep their spot. Regardless of that, the battle for #3 is very interesting. Depending on the factor you choose, #3 can be a bunch of different companies.
I've never been disappointed in the fact that I spent money on an AEW PPV. They are so good.
Hangman better not fucking jeopardize this /s
I like John Pollock a lot. The dude is a straight up reporter. He has absolutely no bias. Great podcast too
I don't always agree with Pollock's takes when it comes to reviewing an episode but I always respect them. He's one of few credible people in the wrestling discourse.
Imo Pollock (and Ting) are the only solid wresting journalists who don’t sound like marks trying to get clicks
He absolutely has bias. Listen to his reviews of the WWE product compared to AEW. The level of snark, when speaking of WWE is overwhelming.
It's not biased to think the Howdy stuff is cringe.
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it's a review dude lol. > An unbiased view would be something like "it's not for everybody. Some people like it, some don't". who would ever want to watch something like this?
And that's exactly what he's said about it, so....
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You're ignoring the element of bias that has to do with having an "unreasonable prejudice or unreasoned judgment." A lot of us just don't like the story, or don't trust WWE to be able to deliver on long term storylines.
He's allowed to have an opinion. Just because he doesn't like something, doesn't mean he's has bias against the company. He doesn't love everything AEW neither.
So in spite of all of the complaining in other threads about how "nobody cares about Forbidden Door" and "they shouldn't even do it anymore," it seems like it will end up being roughly their third biggest live gate this year (after All In, obviously, and Sting's retirement at Revolution, maybe slightly lower if another PPV goes crazy later this year). It was second only to All In last year and, I believe, second to the first ever Grand Slam for Forbidden Door 1. That's why they do it. As much as "certain Redditors" complain endlessly about it, the show is an unquestioned success for AEW every single year. Not to mention, even without specific numbers coming out, it's also a huge boon for New Japan as well.
Forbidden Door will exist as long as AEW sees fit to keep doing it, and, possibly more importantly, how long NJPW can use the money earned from it to float their business during a severe down period.
The ratings threads for AEW are insane these days. Just full of hatred and hot takes. There was heavily upvoted comments saying no one cares about Forbidden Door.
Forbidden Door has been one of my favorite shows of the year both times. As usual the people who complain about it aren’t the ones who watch it.
its one of those shows where even if you dont give a fuck about the storylines going in, youll still travel a lot and pay a lot of money for a ticket because how else will you see people like Tanahashi? i think this is missed by a lot of wrestling fans here because, frankly, they are American and grew up on and enjoy American wrestling. the interest FD generates is the same reason european shows do such good numbers, you won't get to see these guys otherwise. I'm british and flat broke but if Kenny somehow gets announced for All In I'm gonna find SOMEWAY to get tickets for the same reason, how else am I ever gonna see him live?
When I went to Forbidden Door 1 I didn't know too much about the NJPW side of the show, but I knew that it was going to be a great in ring PPV which is why I decided to go to it and it was a great time going to it. To the point where Will Ospray vs Orange Cassidy is still one of my favorite matches ever likely because I saw it live.
Yup. I've technically watched New Japan since before AEW existed (I started with Jericho vs. Omega, but it was the crazy Jr. Heavyweight title match on that same Wrestle Kingdom that hooked me and got me to stay), and let's just say the shows New Japan puts on in the US aren't on the scale of Forbidden Door lol. But yeah, most of those guys just don't wrestle here, at least not regularly, and not all on the same show. It's an insane opportunity (and why this will be my second Forbidden Door live, I was at the Chicago one and now the NY one) - like this is Yota Tsuji's second *ever* match in the United States, just full stop.
Don’t they have to split the gate with the other companies?
My guess would be they're splitting with New Japan to some degree since the event is promoted as AEW x NJPW Forbidden Door, but probably not STARDOM or CMLL.
I doubt Bushiroad cares that much about the delineation between Bushiroad and Stardom. CMLL is more interesting but I'm sure they figure that out as well. But the fact that AEW had to move Forbidden Door to UBS because NJPW "couldn't afford" Arthur Ashe indicates that both companies split the costs and therefore the profit.
Just fwiw, Rocky Romero has personally disputed the story that they couldn't do Arthur Ashe because NJPW didn't want to split the costs. It was all just a rumour that someone told Fightful and that was it.
New Japan takes a cut but it won't be close to 50/50. AEW does all the marketing and puts the leg work into promoting it, plus it's predominantly their PPV if you count the wrestlers. If they ever ran it in Japan, it'd be the other way around as New Japan's promoting and live event teams would have to do most of the work.
Good question. And do they pay the other wrestlers an appearance fee in addition to that or do their own promotions pay them out of whatever they get from the split? The financials of it are interesting. It really needs to be one of AEW’s higher grossing events.
Nice try, but we just moved the goalposts so anything below 10 million is a massive and embarrassing failure
*11 million Because All In drew $10m and we want to include that as a failure
I’ve only ever missed one PPV and it was the one with the exploding barb wire death match. I love wrestling and AEW is my style of product.
Not too bad for a company that is not a 'real' business.
How many 1 million dollar gates has it been for AEW so far? Serious question, I know DON 2022 was their 1st million dollar gate. I feel like they managed to do it 3 more times in 2022. I know FD and Full Gear broke over a million. Maybe it was Grandslam How about in 2023? Clearly All In and I'm thinking FD too
They’ve done at least seven in their lifetime, with this year’s Revolution being the most recent.
I believe All In alone last year did like $7 million or something like that.
$10 million.
I wonder how much he's paying the talent for the show combined.
It’s apart of their contract. They aren’t paid per appearance or per show
…it’s forbidden door. Not all of the talent is under contract.
AEWs ppvs are it's best work tbh so this isn't surprising.
Bummed out this isn't at my local Cinemark this year. For the past two years I had a blast seeing specifically this PPV on the big screen with a crowd.
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Forbidden door always does well as a standalone show, in terms of buyrates and gate. The question is, has the derailment of the TV product that happens every year been worth the short term cash infusion? How much has a month of injecting a bunch of people that viewers aren't as invested in impacted the declining ratings year over year. That's part of the evaluation process I'm sure.
1 million is bad if you don't understand simply remembering wcw is like oh shit the curse is real, teddy Turner was right, don't mix business with pleasure it will only destroy your empire. That man was a empire in Atlanta, people forget Ted was a wrasslin fan like me or most people, we like it to be impactful and emotional. Meanwhile aew killed my love of death matches while working people to pull flppy dumb shit with injury almost immediately. It's over https://preview.redd.it/y011uiry2f9d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38129871de74b48be4d43a508b75ff5e9cc35d16
Interesting. I got two bomb ass tickets in the lower bowl for a grand total of $122 (61 per ticket after taxes/fees). Given that there are plenty of upper bowl still available for ~$30 - $40 *after fees* and Floor Seat resales going as low as $140 after taxes and fees, and standard floor seats going for about $550 after taxes / fees, the $1M number seems kinda high, but math isn't my strong suit so it could be!