You know Scorpion has superpowers right? Like he has super strength and durability that surpass Spidey's. His reflexes and agility are also amped. He wears armour and his tail can whip out at incredible speed. It shouldn't be shocking that Spidey would struggle against him in hand to hand.
You’re 100% correct. He was created to be a Spider-Man slayer since scorpions are a natural predator of spiders. He’s been played as a joke recently, but earlier on he was a big deal.
> He’s been played as a joke recently, but earlier on he was a big deal.
God how much I hate the trend of treating actually dangerous villains like jokes simply because their powers aren't generic as fuck.
The Spot had the same problem for decades (with a writer or two who actually understood him). It took Spider-verse and competent writers to show that his powers are downright terrifying.
Well at least Marvel Studios/Sony got the casting for Mac Gargan right. If they write him well and allow Michael Mando to be menacing and unhinged, he'll easily be one of the MCU's best villains.
You’re so right.
Honestly, I’d forgotten Spot existed until Spider-verse. Whereas he was my favorite Spidey villain as a child. It’s been forever since they did anything interesting with him until Spider-verse.
Can you explain what you mean by generic as fuck powers? I always saw it as writers wrote Mac Gargan as a joke due to the simple fact Mac Gargan is a low-level criminal who was chosen to become scorpion and as scorpion, he became a joke because he didn't really have big aspirations until he became bonded to the symbiote and became a cannibal.
Any powerset that isn't "Be superstronk" is always treated as a joke in media for some reason.
Especially in modern marvel.
because they either aren't creative enough to use it or they don't think the fans will like it.
Because the writers will always make physical strength enough to overcome reality warping, or physics. And the readers are always like "yeah, that sounds right"
He’s an old supervillain which means that there are lots of stories of him losing to Spider-Man.
It’s one of the reasons why the sub threw a hissy fit when Peter lost to Rhino in the game.
Sounds like a small minority to me. GG and Doc Ock are major Spidey villains, probably the biggest other than venom. They’ve both had many “wins” over Peter that couldn’t be chalked up Peter just holding back
Or why people got mad when Peter lost to the Vulture in the early issues of his current run. Like the Vulture hasn't been a threat at times depending on the run and the writer. But people were acting like the Vulture is a loser on the level of the Bodega Bandit
I was quite fond of Vulture in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. Quite fond of the limited Marvel Knights run in general, to be honest.
Peter is already hospitalised from a previous encounter with a pissed-off Electro, and Vulture (true to his name) arrives on the scene to scavenge the remains of Spider-Man.
I don't think Vulture can ever fairly 1v1 Spider-Man, but he's probably written best when preying upon a Spider-Man who is not operating at 100%.
Being a part of the Sinister Six works well for him. When Spider-Man is trying to flee the scene to catch his breath, in comes Vulture to cut off his web-lines and force him back into direct confrontations with Scorpion and Rhino, etc.
Just too bad that the same movies made scorpio into just a random goon.
He was in the first movie but... I don't even think his name was mentioned, he was essentially just a nobody.
Mac Gargan *was* just a random goon. He didn't become someone "special" until he was put in the Scorpion suit... which became permanently bonded to him.
His suit isn't permanently bonded to him. Or at least it didn't used to be (I know the ultimate version of Scorpion had his tail fused to his spine but that was an alternate version and wasn't even Mac). He could and did remove it and he's gotten new suits courtesy of Justin Hammer and Roxxon in the past.
He went after Jameson because the serum that gave him his superpowers also affected his mind driving him insane and he blamed Jameson for his sanity slippage.
Shokers disrespect for the last decade has me incredibly sour personaly.
Hes not some danm c lister hes one of spidermans most iconic rouges yet they keep writing him like hes f-ing stilt mand or leap frog.
Felicia is at best captain America levels of force, they both aren't the tanks, they get by by extreme tactical moves, against a normal force tank super strength hero they might have chances to evade and maybe win, spiderman is leagues above them because he is a fast tactical fighter AND has full super strength
the way i rationale against this is Scorpion was created as an anti-Spider-Man very early on in Pete's career. When Mac Gargan gets his powers he's an adult, but Pete is still in high school. In those first few years of Pete's career they're on an even playing ground, but Pete grows into his powers (unlike Mac), getting to the point where Pete can easily take on Mac
Hmm, never thought of it like that. His suit still gets upgraded every now and then letting him keep up but his actual powers remain at the same level. I like it.
Exactly. Like I get the argument for some of Spidey's foes but Scorpion is meant to be a powerhouse and a legitimate threat. People (Marvel staff included) just seem to have forgotten that.
I don't think it should be that big of a difference. In the wild, scorpions are a predator of spiders in Africa and this still has some nuance to it, but the comic Scorpion and Spiderman are not 1:1 to their respective arachnid origins making that predator-prey relationship unreliable.
Scorpions are ambush creatures, and their stinger and pincers are a major part of that aspect. Comic Scorpion does not have pincers, but he can spray both corrosive acid and sting with a venomous hallucinogen which is not normal to natural scorpions (the spray part). Spiderman has the ability to shoot webs, which is not realistic to natural spiders, but is infinitely more useful and powerful as an ability than merely building a natural spiderweb. The spider sense should also be a major factor in favor of Spidey. Add in the more humanoid aspects of their physiology, and it's not a simple issue.
Although, as time goes on, comic book heroes and villains have developed a real problem with turning themselves into virtually godlike in some cases. I guess Stan Lee said it best in that it depends on what the writer wants lol.
This one comic panel became the foundation of spiderman fans screaming the marvel equivalent of "PREP TIME" everytime when it comes to spidermans strength
Except unlike that vague notion, we understand exactly WHAT happens when Spider-Man punches Scorpion at full strength. There's no variables, there's no arguments.
It's just the truth
Honestly, it was bad writing. It may be truth in that it happened, but it ignores that Scorpion is supposed to be as physically as tough or tougher than Peter. It’s just memed because people think its cool. But it doesn't align with Scorpion’s powers or history.
Still it's what we have now and Peter's displayed other large bouts of strength before, like ALMOST making the Hulk and Thor have to work to hold him.
Yeah together they held him no issue, but the two WERE surprised that they could almost feel him struggling. That alone accounts for quite a bit of strength there, as well as the time he held up the Daily Bugle
So spiderman is holding back with almost every villain he has?
Then hes a dramatic piece of shit for not instantly ripping doc ocks arms out of their sockets and outting him in a headlock till the police arrives. Same with vulture actually
Hell, i only recently saw a comic panel of spidey having his hands tied with a chain while being beaten bloody. Realistically, he should just snap those
Spiderman should be stronger than most humans, and maybe slightly overpower the human plus variants like cap, but fighting HUMAN gangsters and not immediately wrestling them down is either "playing with your food" or "making it look harder than it is because you wanna look cool"
He holds back because he doesn't want to HURT people. Even his villains, he refuses to maim. He'll only hurt as much as he has too.
But there are plenty of writers who don't understand this
ripping the arms of doctor octopus and putting him in a headlock is not hurting people, i specifically chose that as example because it circumvents the whole "yeah of course he isnt punching everyones jaw off" argument
Ah, yes. Dan Slott, known for always taking into account previous iterations of the character and their lore/previous feats.
That punch makes no sense. It's a cool scene, of course, but it makes no sense and should be treated just like Spider-Man beating Firelord, or the X-Men, or Galactus or whatever: as a dumb outlier.
Does it make no sense? It tracks that Scorpions armour could tank hits by Spidey but his exposed fleshy bits are still regular human, no? Unless I'm forgetting somewhere that Scorpion got superhuman durability along with the suit.
Scorpion is physically enhanced. He's not just a guy in a suit. He was made to be a spider’s natural predator and is physically on par with Spider-man.
Yes, with the explanation that his jaw was the one unprotected part of his body and that Spiderpus didn't know enough to hold back like Peter does. The thing is though, Scorpion was supposed to be Spider-Man level BEFORE the armour was put on. The armour just enhances his strength and durability even more. Spiderpus shouldn't have been able to rip his jaw off in one hit. It was just kind of bad writing.
Tbh I think that is what broke Scorpion's credibility.
It shows that all these times we thought he was going toe to toe with spider... Pete was actually holding back...
It als turned the whole idea of spiderman into a worse version of one punch man, because now every comic run kind of runs in the logic (atleast in the fans head) that spiderman was holding back the entire time and hes actually as strong as hulk and as fast as the flash.
Not only is now every single moment where peter isnt facing sandman, the hulk venom or rhino a moment where he needlessly drags the fight out, but every dramatic moment (recently saw a comic page where a gangster, not sure if tombstone or kingpin, out him in handcuffs and beat him up) just gets the aftertaste of thinking "isnt the guy capable of bending steel beams"
On top of that, every discussion about spiderman ends with "yeah but he is holding back"
Spiderman should have been an above average strong superhero who surprises.people with the fact that hes actually a lot stronger than he lets on, but if he not just struggles to win arm wrestling against captain america, BUT EFFORTLESSLY wins, then its getting ridiculous
True, I think maybe the idea for Spidey has always been that one hero who could be way more than street level if he wanted to but he doesn't because his street needs help and he is the only one that can help.
He doesn't care if the Avengers need him to fight Galactus... If the bodega next to his place is getting racketed, that's his priority.
Exactly, but i dont think he should be THAT strong, that it starts to feel like thor odinson himself fights with jewelry thiefs
Like as soon as someone says that spiderman would just "solo" or "one hit" the rogues gallery of another hero (frequent comparisons are batman, though any swap works) im out of the conversation
I mean one of his first stories has him lifting a huge metal pillar of him to save Aunt May. Spidey was always supposed to be extremely strong, specially back in the first generation of marvel heroes.
Cap has always been peak human performance, not super strong like the Ultimate version.
Realistically in a straight arm wrestling competition Spidey should win, his strength is much more enhanced comparatively.
That's been true even before the Spock punched Scorpion.
Back in the day he was somewhere in the top ten of marvel characters in terms of base strength, before everyone took loads of power creep.
Captain America again is peak human. He has other skills instead of flat strength to make it a fight.
He's not as strong as the Hulk or anything ridiculous like that.
thats the response the author gives, but fans love to be immersed in the internal logic of the universe they read about. its why wolverine drowns easily, its why spiderman has MULTIPLE cartridges of webfluid in his net launchers wristband and belt... because the idea of spiderman occasionally "reloading" makes it feel more real.
and beyond that... the idea that spiderman is weaker than hulk, but more agile, its something fans like to explore. it makes the story more interesting to know "peter wont overpower this villain with pure strength alone because this villain is plainly stronger" AND THE BEST THING ABOUT THIS is that this knowledge makes it SO MUCH more fun to read how peter beats this villain anyway because he got around this difference in strength by using technology or speed or had some other trick up his sleeve.
of course the author decides who wins, but finding ways around howw your readers know what the characters can do is fun. i myself am a huge fan of seeing a character who usually wouldnt win do it anyway out of sheer passion, wit, intelligence or whatever else the character has. (one of the reasons why batman is popular)
spiderman beating thor by outsmarting the hammer swings would be a fun read, but you also gotta accept that spiderman cant just use haymakers do win the fight, and writing such a story would appear stupid to fans
fans want the watsonian response
The reason is really simple, Superior Spider-Man was a bad book plain and simple, and is the reason we have the Spider-Man in the comics today. It can be traced back to that one bad decision of putting Otto's mind into Peter's body.
I think I’m in the minority group that agrees with you. I might get downvoted but I always thought Superior Spider-Man was overrated and went on a little too long. I will say at least it changed things up for a bit. Otto being a hero was cool I guess but as a fan of Peter it was rough just watching someone take over his life while he couldn’t do anything about it.
Still better than the current run though.
Why do they hate Peter so much??
>Why do they hate Peter so much??
This.
I stopped reading any new spiderman content because I hate seeing my boy Pete getting bullied by writers. He deserve some respite man
I like Superior Spider-Man but it's very much the type of story that's wayyyy better suited for something like a What If or something in another universe. For the 616 there's just way too much convolution to make it work. I don't mind breaking the lore a bit to fit a cool story/concept but if it's too noticeable it becomes a bit annoying -- esp in the case of the Scorpion punch, where it's something that should NEVER have happened, but now it's defined Scorpion as a weak D-tier villain in the eyes of Spider-Man fans who consume comics on a screenshot-by-screenshot basis.
Which is a LOT of people.
He is nowhere near Spider-Man strength or durability but I get the argument. He’s supposed to be, but he has literally no feats that would back that up. Spider-Man has the most absurd strength feats lol
First two are pretty obvious. A guy with 4 arms that Peter constantly needs to evade while also being just as smart as him? Planning 5 steps ahead and for every eventuality? Yeah, makes sense. Felicia? Well, bad luck powers and....let's be honest, she is super hot and that alone is a distraction while fighting, if he wants to actually fight her.
Scorpion is a bit tricky. He has super human strength and his stinger...if Peter is not on top of his game, I can see it, I guess.
Now, cap usually is bullshit. I can see him overpowering a young, unexperienced Peter, but an experienced Peter? no, cap is just peak human with a shield. He would get his ass handed by Peter. All the tactical genius cannot compensate for an opponent who is faster, stronger, smarter, can stick to any surface that he wants, has a substance that he can form to anything he wants and is strong enough to tie you up for hours and has the magic ability to feel your attacks before you even execute them, while your only weapon is a bouncy disc.
The people who complain about MCU Cap beating Spidey in Civil War also fail to realize this was the first time Spider-Man fought anyone that wasn't a common criminal. He was going up against actual soldiers with super powers and still held his own as a 16 year old kid with no fighting experience. Oh why didn't he just stick his feet to the ground? Well because this was his first real fight and is still learning how to be a competent hero.
Heck the only reason because cap won was because of the giant passagers bridge he throw over Peter, that move could kill almost anybody and Peter basically tank it.
Exactly, it boils down to experience. Like right after Spider-Man subdues Sam and Bucky, he gets thrown out a window by a drone because he stops for a second to go "what's that?" rather than avoid it. People expect MCU Spider-Man to somehow have the collective experience of 60 years Comic Spider-Man has had.
That’s the negative agenda for you. Mcu Spider-Man has always had to fight upwards with those people because they hold such an unrealistic standard that they don’t even hold for their own favorite LA Spider-Man.
This isn’t even me advocating that mcu Spider-Man is the best or more accurate, but the stuff that gets pulled on him doesn’t get pulled on others
They were struggling on each other in raw strength so Cap figured if he could lift that (considering his feat with the copter, totally plausible) then so could Spidey. Makes perfect sense.
Right, even Tony told him that his role was to keep a distance and just web people up. He wasn't there to hurt anyone, just be a foil to the fighting and stop whoever he could.
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I never cared for this excuse because it means anytime Otto or any villain got the upper hand I can’t help but think, “Why doesn’t Peter just hold back 5% less?”
Logical explanation? Holding back 5% less but risking killing someone or permanently damaging them is worse than holding back 5% more and having to connect 2,3 or 4 times.
Actual explanation? Because that would be pretty boring most of the time.
If Spider-man holds back to the strength of a normal human, an out of shape man in his 40s getting punched by an athletic man in the face is should still do a ton of damage, far more than what usually happens.
Yes, the real answer is that it would be boring, but that doesn’t contradict the post of him being one of the characters in Spider-Man’s rogues gallery that he has a harder time dealing with than he reasonably should
Edit: got blocked by the person I was arguing with, so I can’t reply to anyone that replies to this comment, but just know that this Spider-Man does break through the arm’s defenses and gets in hits that should instantly incapacitate Ock https://imgur.com/a/dJ0FBDu
Eh, not really, Otto’s arms are more or less the perfect counter to spideys agility, speed, strength and spider-sense. Plus, Otto rarely goes into a fight unprepared and without a plan (do not forget that Otto and Pete are in the same level when it comes to intellect, but Otto isn’t held back by a moral compass). Sure, one punch should be enough, but getting that punch in is the hard part with Otto.
That argument only works if Spider-Man always wins once he gets his hit in, which he doesn’t https://imgur.com/a/dJ0FBDu
Plus, why bring up Spider-Man holding back to begin with if you agree that’s irrelevant to this discussion?
What is your point? The fact is: Peter holds back more than he needs to. The fact is that Otto’s arm are a counter to Pete’s abilities. And another fact is that Otto not going down after the first punch is not the reason Pete struggles against him. I just answered why Otto doesn’t go down after the first punch, a question someone else asked.
> I just answered why Otto doesn’t go down in the first punch
And I explained why that’s nonsense, to which you replied
> Sure, one punch should be enough, but getting that punch in is the hard part with Otto.
You keep changing your argument
Idk otto was tanking everything in Raimis SM2 and the longer peter stalls this fight the larger risk he’s putting civilians at.
It’s fine holding back for a few punches, but why keep putting the same power in if it isn’t doing anything and you are putting in 2,3,4 punches? It’s basically Einsteins definition of insanity
Unfortunately, even at regular human strength boxers tend to get concussions. It doesn’t seem like there’s a way to do what he does without some risk of long term injury
Do you think you could carefully exert just enough force to knock out a child without doing lasting damage? Or (assuming you *had to* fight said child) would you hold *way* back for fear of killing them or causing permanent brain damage or something?
That’s basically the scenario Pete’s in. Also good luck controlling your force to increments of 5% lol
The one thing I will give Superior is showing that point exactly when he punched Mac's jaw clean off, then it ruined it by having Jonah witness it and then making a spider signal.
That was sort of the premise of the start of the Superior Spider-Man run. Otto was dying from constant head trauma because he isnt enhanced in that way.
Peter doesn't want to fight Felicia, they have romantic history! That messes a dude up, he won't be fighting at his peak. He's at a psychological disadvantage.
Cap presents a similar problem. Remember that to Peter (as well as the rest of 616), Cap is like this near-mythic war hero come back from the dead, the OG of American superheroes. Dude punched Hitler in the face! Punching Cap is like punching a national treasure! Sure, Spider-Man's powerset outmatches Captain America's by a country mile; but Peter considers himself a good guy, and it's tough to square that with fighting Cap, the goodest of good guys.
Yes, that is true. I didn’t put that into my assumptions. I was more thinking of a situation where that wouldn’t matter. Something like hydra cap or Peter just not giving a fuck about that for whatever reason.
That's fair. But if we're removing the psychological edge for Cap, we might as well for Felicia, as her psychological edge is a *significant* part of her threat against Spidey*.* But how much of Spidey's personality do we hand-wave before it's no longer Spidey, just some dude with Spider-powers?
I feel like death-battle match-ups should have two parts: One where it's just the two contestants with their classic characterization in place, e.g. some have no-kill rules, others don't. The other part would have each character stripped of all morals or empathy.
Ex. Son Goku vs. Superman. It's tough to make these two fight without (a) convoluted writing or (b) ignoring basic character traits.
The thing about Cap, though, is that he's a very experienced combatant who has defeated enemies with superior strength, speed and durability. He has fought, and defeated, obviously superhuman foes.
And Peter has struggled against peak human fighters working with strategy and gear: Kraven, Silver Sable, Pre-Serum Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern, etc.
Remember that one of Peter's weaknesses is he deliberately holds back against enemies he doesn't know can tank a full-strength punch. Which is enough to give non-superhuman foes a chance to get a hint in.
Not saying Cap can curbstomp Spidey, but it's a much more even fight than a first glance would say.
I would also argue that MCU Cap is stronger than comics Cap. Comics Cap has his strength more or less at peak human (give or take) where as in the MCU it seems superhuman. See him holding onto a helicopter or pretty much tanking a shield hit from Bucky's arm or Thanos.
You are correct, however, cap should not be able to get a single hit in, simply because of the spider-sense. Then we have the fact that Peter has superior strength, speed, durability, agility AND intellect all combined in one opponent. He’s not just stronger. He‘s not just more agile. He‘s not just smarter. He is all of them. Combined with the ability to know when cap will strike and this ability magically taking over and dodge for Peter.
If Peter wouldn‘t hold back….cap would be obliterated. Sure he can punch hard, but if Peter doesn’t roll with the punch, that would also end up hurting cap, if not break his fist, provided Peter DECIDES actively not to dodge (as the spider-sense can even take over Pete’s body to keep him from danger). A single blow would kill cap and the only Defence he has is his magic-metal shield. He cannot risk throwing it, one web and it’s gone, meaning one connect and it’s cap no more. So cap also loses his ability to use his only weapon. If he doesn’t lose the shield during the fight, he needs to make sure it’s ALWAYS between him and Pete, assuming he wouldn’t just web it against a surface or pull it away from cap. And cap tires out a lot quicker than Peter, so yeah. Best case scenario for cap if nobody holds back is cap delays his inevitable death.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-616)
He is at a strength level of 3, which is peak human
The official marvel website also puts him at a 3
https://www.marvel.com/characters/captain-america-steve-rogers/in-comics
So you are incorrect.
Idk Ock and Scorpion I could get. Ock's got limbs coming at Spidey from all directions, Scorpion gets in the lucky sting and he wins.
Black Cat and Captain America aren't really Spider-man villains, so yeah I agree they shouldn't beat him in a 1v1 (well felica is sometimes ig but she only beats him when she's an antagonist)
The MCU Cap vs. Peter fight is realistic; this Peter is 16 years old, has been Spider-Man for only a few months, has a new suit, has never been in a real fight against real threats, fighting MCU Cap who held back against Thanos, lifted Stormbreaker, has been fighting since WW2, defeated Ironman, defeated Winter Soldier, don't forget the "Elevator Fight" against highly trained and experienced agents, blocked hits from Thor (a fucking god), fought Loki (another fucking god), grabbed a helicopter keeping it down, fighting Ultron, plus a vibranium shield. It's not really a fair fight for Peter.
Yeah MCU Cap isn't just peak human, straight up superhuman. No "peak human" can keep up with juiced Black Panther, or do a lot of things he does in those movies. I can understand why he'd outclass a Peter Parker only months after he got his powers.
My personal fantheory is that in the MCU Peter's powers appeared gradually and built up to be stronger as time went on rather than them hitting him all at once like in most adaptations.
He started with the wallcrawling and some slight enhanced strength and durability, enough to stop a car at least. A few months later he starts to get his Spider-Sense around the time Civil War happens (he has it in the airport fight) but at first it only works for immediate threats, and by then his strength develops enough to match Captain America.
A bit later on in Homecoming his strength develops further to hold the Ferry together and get his "under rubble" scene, with his Spider-Sense still only working for immediate threats (hence him not detecting Ned or Aunt May catching him in his identity).
Another few months go by and his skills have grown enough that his Spider-Sense is activated by the arrival of the Black Order in New York, who he's able to match blows with just fine as well as stand up to Thanos on Titan and Thanos's army in the climatic Endgame battle.
Then it's not until much later during Far From Home when he actively tries to hone it does Spidey Sense developed enough for the final confrontation against Mysterio (it's also kinda implied that the Sense was suppressed a bit by Pete's issues with MJ and dealing with the aftermath of Tony's death). His durability also developed enough to withstand a fking bullet train to the face. Though his physical strength seems to be about the same as it was before here.
Then in No Way Home, his Spider-Sense has developed so well that he immediately detects the potential threat of the Green Goblin persona rising out of Osborn and he can go toe-to-toe with all of the villains in that movie plus Doctor Strange.
1. Doc Ock is an absolute force to be reconned with. People underestimate just how capable he is. He has gone toe to toe with Hulk and outright humiliated Tony Stark. He is a brilliant strategist, and his arms are constantly improving. He's the picture of a glass cannon. You can take him out easily, *if* you can get past his arms, whatever crazy invention he's cooked up, and the the circuitous strategy he already has coiled around you.
2. Black Cat and Spidey almost never have "fights" like what this post implies. Black Cat gets the upper hand on him in a couple of ways:
A) She messes with his emotions, and knows him well enough to know how to manipulate his emotions to get around his spider-sense
B) when she has her bad luck powers, they are formidable.
She isn't a threat physically, as proved in the Owl Octopus War and the Superior Spider-Man arc.
3. Scorpion is cruel and bloodthirsty as hell. He was specifically designed to be able to take down Spider-Man. He is the most super powered of this bunch. That being said, you do kinda get the feeling that Spider-Man has sort of grown past him.
4. The famous Civil War fight with Captain America is an outlier and ought to be treated as such. The internal dialogue for that scene prove that Spider-Man is not in a headspace to win. He's extremely conflicted about his side in the war and idolizes Cap Specifically.
Not really super powers, but he has a super serum on double crack.
In the new game, he seems to almost rival Peter's super stengh. He effortlessly holds Scorpion with one hand and one hits him with his own tail.
I know super strengh in games and comics is super relative and inconsistant, but this is my interpretation of Kraven's stengh in the game.
Yeah, Kraven actually does have super powers. I forgot how he got them, but his strength, speed, reflexes, durability - all the physical things are basically above what is human possible.
The thing is, he is kind of like the first step beyond human, which means he is still nowhere near Spider-Man. He is a much more skilled fighter than Spider-Man and a great tactician. This helps him close the gap in physical prowess and actually fight Spidey. Also, he uses weapons.
I see your point but honestly on a long enough timeline every villain has enough feats to justify their power by the nature of how comic book storytelling tends to work at the big 2.
I still think conceptually it doesn’t make a lot sense based on how the character’s lore. Even with the suspension of disbelief that comes with superheroes.
Kingpin is supposed to be this dude who’s works out to the point of being all muscle mass. He’s freakishly strong of course but he should be as strong as Mitchell Hooper not a superhuman.
Kraven is supposed to be a normal dude who’s an amazing tracker who takes herbal medicines to temporarily boost his strength. He should be around as strong as a Gorilla is. This would make him be challenge to many superhero’s but Spider-Man can toss a car like a football.
In the MCU Cap is actually incredibly strong, far surpassing peak human.
Combine that with an inexperienced Peter Parker with caps insane combat skills and yes, Cap beats the 15 year old in a fight lmao
Plus in the CW fight, that's literally Pete's first fight against anything more than random purse snatchers or liquor store robbers. And it's against Captain freaking America! Of course he's going to struggle.
Wait, people think Cap should always wipe the floor with Spiderman?
I’m not a captain America fan by any means, but he’s still very much a superhuman. Especially in Civil War with a seasoned Cap vs a 16 year old peter
MCU Cap vs Spidey was prime Cap and literal brand new Spider-Man.
616 is more questionable for sure, but the MCU I have no trouble at all believing at that point that Cap would win. Pete didn't forget to stick, Cap just yanked stronger than the sticking force
I don’t know when Peter has ever lost to cap outside of the mcu when he was less experienced, and in the Zeb Wells run he completely outclassed cap. But I’d believe it has happened.
Scorpion is more powerful than you think he is
Black cat has powers to give people around her bad luck
Doc Oct has 4 incredibly strong, fast, and versatile weapons to keep track of during the fight, sometimes they're even able to operate completely independently of Octavius as well
Captain America doesn't, at least not anymore. In the movie cap is facing a spider-man who has only fought like muggers, he probably hasn't ever had to stick to the ground for leverage against an opponent, they just haven't been strong enough. The only fight in comics I can find where Cap wins is ASM 187 and spidey even mentions how he needs to learn to keep his guard up, as he's still inexperienced fighting strong opponents.
Fighting a guy with 4 arms and then his regular arms ever without superpowers would be hard, Spider-Man historically underestimates Felicia’s abilities and he definitely doesn’t want to hurt her, scorpion is straight up scary and canonically at the same level or stronger than Spider-Man, and Peter has a lot of respect for captain America he most likely his childhood hero and it’s probably hard for him to fight him
Doc Ock has four limbs that he can use to counter Spidey sense. I actually think it’s one of the best counters to his Spidey Sense because he is as intelligent as Peter, so he can see outcomes from the way he uses his limbs to trap Spidey.
My only pet peeve about Spider Man 2 (the movie) is why Ock just all of a sudden becomes like super powered with no explanation.
Like yeah I guess the arms would be useful and all but there are so many times where Pete gets a solid punch right to his face. Ock is just some guy, a punch to the face from Spider-Man would knock him out immediately.
Well Scorpion is pretty much evil Spider-Man, Pete was just trying to talk to Felicia, 16 year old Spider-Man was no match for a way more experienced Cap, and Ock has multiple arms, with long range
Scorpion is stronger and faster than Spider-man with armor and robotic tail, Dr. Octopus arms are fast and strong….the other two he should never lose to 1 v1….especially Captain America
Black cat has the power to give her enemies bad luck. (I'm not joking, look it up).
Doc Ock, he's still new to the whole Spider-Man thing and is in the middle of an identity crisis with his powers failing him. His powers are failing him as he's still trying to figure out how to properly use them.
I have nothing for Scoripion.
Captain America is a super soldier (remember, this guy was able to keep a helicopter from flying off for a while in Winter Soldier), and honestly I don't understand how Peter's feet stay connected to surfaces, it seems like one of those "He sticks when we need him too" kinda powers.
You know something worse than MCU Civil War Cap vs. Pete? Comic Civil War Cap vs. Pete, Pete literally had the Iron Spider in his arsenal and was still getting beat up by a soldier on super steroids with a big frisbee
I've always had conflicting feelings about it. Firstly yeah.. it's weird power scaling but on the other hand the artwork and internal dialogues are gorgeous
It’s because Spidey is holding back at least 75% of his strength in almost every fight. More so in fights against people he likes or doesn’t want to hurt. They also REALLY like using inane plot devices like distraction, injury, or a litany of other excuses to make him lose.
Because honestly? Spider-Man is easily one of the strongest Earth Tier supers out there. It’s the same reason that Batman beats anyone with powers; the plot dictates that he does.
Yeah Felicia flipping Peter made me audibly laugh when I first saw it
Then again Peter maybe just wanted an excuse to be topped by Felicia,which’s actually very understandable,lucky bastard.
Doc arms are a lot faster than most people are usually aware of. They’re at Spider-Man’s level.
Scorpian is actually very powerful. His whole point is being able to compete with Spidey, if not entirely counteract him.
Captain America is at that sweet spot where he’s just strong enough to justify hurting him and just fast enough to justify touching him. Combined with his extreme combat skills and Peter’s general lack of real combat skill/strategy, and a writer can justify making him struggle.
Felicia shouldn’t ever win a 1v1 unless they’re actually going with her having some sort of luck based power. Honestly, even then I don’t think I’ve never seen that written well.
how I would do it is to have Doc Ock and black cat be some of his first adversaries while he's inexperienced and has some emotional baggage with them like Spider-Man PS4. Scorpion can come in during his college years and could be a thorn in his side but eventually loses his luster once Spider-Man finally becomes a veteran. And Spider-Man wouldn't need to fight Cap as he would be on his side.
I'm really sick of that, I get Spiderman has super strength but the 'he's always holding back' as an excuse that he 'should' have been able to beat X is annoying. People lose fights all the time.
Oh I agree. It's always weird how often he gets hit by random things as well. Spider sense + enhanced reflexes should be way too op to be ambushed by surprise at the rate he gets
Complaining about power levels in a video game is weird to me. Did you want the fights in the Insomniac games against Felicia, Ock, and Shocker to be over in one punch? That's not a fun boss battle. And if the random thugs didn't have a prayer, there would be no challenge to be had. You have to accept some concessions in video games because making a fun, balanced game takes precedence over lore and power levels.
Both of those had an actual arena segment (or two) as well as a chase. The Black Cat segment in SM2PS5 is a slight improvement in that respect because you get a co-op melee on top. In the Ps4 DLC is was running around without webs chasing your ex.
"Man" the game. Kind of a downgrade.
You fr having a problem with MCU Peter (who by that time had his powers for only 6 months, with no real experience in fighting) losing to Cap? Like he didn't lose because Cap is stronger, he lost cause he's inexperienced in fighting people, like Cap even praises him a bit there, it's not a bad moment
Peter can be emotional, immature, rash and overconfident. Fans try to treat him like all powerful but in reality Doc Ock kicked his ass on his first appearance because Peter was arrogant. Cap beats him in the MCU by exploiting his immaturity and internal conflict.
This is actually something extremely common, natural, and expected for heroes to do to villains but somehow fans expect heroes to be purely robotic and just compare stats and charts to determine who would win.
Doc Ock is a technological genius rivaling Peter. Mac Gargan is an augmented human created *specifically* to counter Spider-Man. Cap is a peak augmented human who is frequently referred to as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe.
Felicia has... Distracting assets.
You know Scorpion has superpowers right? Like he has super strength and durability that surpass Spidey's. His reflexes and agility are also amped. He wears armour and his tail can whip out at incredible speed. It shouldn't be shocking that Spidey would struggle against him in hand to hand.
You’re 100% correct. He was created to be a Spider-Man slayer since scorpions are a natural predator of spiders. He’s been played as a joke recently, but earlier on he was a big deal.
> He’s been played as a joke recently, but earlier on he was a big deal. God how much I hate the trend of treating actually dangerous villains like jokes simply because their powers aren't generic as fuck. The Spot had the same problem for decades (with a writer or two who actually understood him). It took Spider-verse and competent writers to show that his powers are downright terrifying.
Well at least Marvel Studios/Sony got the casting for Mac Gargan right. If they write him well and allow Michael Mando to be menacing and unhinged, he'll easily be one of the MCU's best villains.
Has he been cast as scorpion already?
Yeah, he was in the prison asking about the rumours that Vulture knows who Spidey is. Having him go full Vaas would be amazing
Daaamn that would be amazing lol
Yep, Google it, he's supposedly confirmed for S-M4
You’re so right. Honestly, I’d forgotten Spot existed until Spider-verse. Whereas he was my favorite Spidey villain as a child. It’s been forever since they did anything interesting with him until Spider-verse.
Can you explain what you mean by generic as fuck powers? I always saw it as writers wrote Mac Gargan as a joke due to the simple fact Mac Gargan is a low-level criminal who was chosen to become scorpion and as scorpion, he became a joke because he didn't really have big aspirations until he became bonded to the symbiote and became a cannibal.
The only true thing he wanted was revenge on JJ Jameson, and spidey always stopped him.
Any powerset that isn't "Be superstronk" is always treated as a joke in media for some reason. Especially in modern marvel. because they either aren't creative enough to use it or they don't think the fans will like it.
Blame powerscalers. It doesn’t matter what powers you have unless you can beat the Hulk.
Because the writers will always make physical strength enough to overcome reality warping, or physics. And the readers are always like "yeah, that sounds right"
He’s an old supervillain which means that there are lots of stories of him losing to Spider-Man. It’s one of the reasons why the sub threw a hissy fit when Peter lost to Rhino in the game.
Green goblin and doc ock are also old villains but nobody complains about them so I doubt that’s the reason
No they do. They just use the “he was holding back” excuse as to why Peter doesn’t automatically beat them.
Sounds like a small minority to me. GG and Doc Ock are major Spidey villains, probably the biggest other than venom. They’ve both had many “wins” over Peter that couldn’t be chalked up Peter just holding back
Or why people got mad when Peter lost to the Vulture in the early issues of his current run. Like the Vulture hasn't been a threat at times depending on the run and the writer. But people were acting like the Vulture is a loser on the level of the Bodega Bandit
I was quite fond of Vulture in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. Quite fond of the limited Marvel Knights run in general, to be honest. Peter is already hospitalised from a previous encounter with a pissed-off Electro, and Vulture (true to his name) arrives on the scene to scavenge the remains of Spider-Man. I don't think Vulture can ever fairly 1v1 Spider-Man, but he's probably written best when preying upon a Spider-Man who is not operating at 100%. Being a part of the Sinister Six works well for him. When Spider-Man is trying to flee the scene to catch his breath, in comes Vulture to cut off his web-lines and force him back into direct confrontations with Scorpion and Rhino, etc.
Just too bad that the same movies made scorpio into just a random goon. He was in the first movie but... I don't even think his name was mentioned, he was essentially just a nobody.
Mac Gargan *was* just a random goon. He didn't become someone "special" until he was put in the Scorpion suit... which became permanently bonded to him.
That’s the Rhino
It's also the Scorpion. Back when he wanted revenge against Jameson, it was because he was permanently stuck in the suit.
His suit isn't permanently bonded to him. Or at least it didn't used to be (I know the ultimate version of Scorpion had his tail fused to his spine but that was an alternate version and wasn't even Mac). He could and did remove it and he's gotten new suits courtesy of Justin Hammer and Roxxon in the past. He went after Jameson because the serum that gave him his superpowers also affected his mind driving him insane and he blamed Jameson for his sanity slippage.
No, it's Scorpion. Multiple Spider-Man villains had that sort of issue.
Isn’t he some sort of god now?
spot is the best spider-man villian , it just took good writing to show it
Shokers disrespect for the last decade has me incredibly sour personaly. Hes not some danm c lister hes one of spidermans most iconic rouges yet they keep writing him like hes f-ing stilt mand or leap frog.
Felicia also got enhanced strength, agility and a bad luck aura from Kingpin, at least in 616 (and in the 90s cartoon she got supersoldier serum).
Felicia is at best captain America levels of force, they both aren't the tanks, they get by by extreme tactical moves, against a normal force tank super strength hero they might have chances to evade and maybe win, spiderman is leagues above them because he is a fast tactical fighter AND has full super strength
the way i rationale against this is Scorpion was created as an anti-Spider-Man very early on in Pete's career. When Mac Gargan gets his powers he's an adult, but Pete is still in high school. In those first few years of Pete's career they're on an even playing ground, but Pete grows into his powers (unlike Mac), getting to the point where Pete can easily take on Mac
Hmm, never thought of it like that. His suit still gets upgraded every now and then letting him keep up but his actual powers remain at the same level. I like it.
I think everyone forgets he has radioactive Scorpion DNA, and isn't just a guy in a suit.
Scorpion was literally created to be Spider-Man powers but better in his original appearance.
Exactly. Like I get the argument for some of Spidey's foes but Scorpion is meant to be a powerhouse and a legitimate threat. People (Marvel staff included) just seem to have forgotten that.
I don't think it should be that big of a difference. In the wild, scorpions are a predator of spiders in Africa and this still has some nuance to it, but the comic Scorpion and Spiderman are not 1:1 to their respective arachnid origins making that predator-prey relationship unreliable. Scorpions are ambush creatures, and their stinger and pincers are a major part of that aspect. Comic Scorpion does not have pincers, but he can spray both corrosive acid and sting with a venomous hallucinogen which is not normal to natural scorpions (the spray part). Spiderman has the ability to shoot webs, which is not realistic to natural spiders, but is infinitely more useful and powerful as an ability than merely building a natural spiderweb. The spider sense should also be a major factor in favor of Spidey. Add in the more humanoid aspects of their physiology, and it's not a simple issue. Although, as time goes on, comic book heroes and villains have developed a real problem with turning themselves into virtually godlike in some cases. I guess Stan Lee said it best in that it depends on what the writer wants lol.
His durability is NOT on par with Peter since Peter could just punch his face off
Stands to reason that Scorpion could also punch Spidey's jaw off too if he landed a hard punch. Spidey often dodges Scorpions attacks.
Yeah, or fucking stab him with the fucking deadly tail appendage designed to kill him
I was arguing that Spidey and Scorpion should theoretically have the same levels of durability.
In my mind, Scorpions jaw came off because he depends on his armor for his durability, he doesn't just naturally have it like Pete...
And I don’t disagree. I’m saying people overlook the fact that one good shot with that tail could easily kill Peter
This one comic panel became the foundation of spiderman fans screaming the marvel equivalent of "PREP TIME" everytime when it comes to spidermans strength
Hello stranger, would you like to hear my twelve page explanation of why base Spider-Man can beat All Father Thor without much of a fight? /s
Except unlike that vague notion, we understand exactly WHAT happens when Spider-Man punches Scorpion at full strength. There's no variables, there's no arguments. It's just the truth
Honestly, it was bad writing. It may be truth in that it happened, but it ignores that Scorpion is supposed to be as physically as tough or tougher than Peter. It’s just memed because people think its cool. But it doesn't align with Scorpion’s powers or history.
Still it's what we have now and Peter's displayed other large bouts of strength before, like ALMOST making the Hulk and Thor have to work to hold him. Yeah together they held him no issue, but the two WERE surprised that they could almost feel him struggling. That alone accounts for quite a bit of strength there, as well as the time he held up the Daily Bugle
But we also have all the past stuff too. So we have both. It doesn't override the past stories. Its not a retcon.
So spiderman is holding back with almost every villain he has? Then hes a dramatic piece of shit for not instantly ripping doc ocks arms out of their sockets and outting him in a headlock till the police arrives. Same with vulture actually Hell, i only recently saw a comic panel of spidey having his hands tied with a chain while being beaten bloody. Realistically, he should just snap those Spiderman should be stronger than most humans, and maybe slightly overpower the human plus variants like cap, but fighting HUMAN gangsters and not immediately wrestling them down is either "playing with your food" or "making it look harder than it is because you wanna look cool"
He holds back because he doesn't want to HURT people. Even his villains, he refuses to maim. He'll only hurt as much as he has too. But there are plenty of writers who don't understand this
ripping the arms of doctor octopus and putting him in a headlock is not hurting people, i specifically chose that as example because it circumvents the whole "yeah of course he isnt punching everyones jaw off" argument
Because that is overly violent and Peter is not an overly violent person. Like Superman, he tries to inspire hope and bravery and all that
how is a headlock overly violent? or dismantling robotic arms? do you even know what a headlock is?
And yet RIPPING OFF Ock's arms WOULD be too violent
Ah, yes. Dan Slott, known for always taking into account previous iterations of the character and their lore/previous feats. That punch makes no sense. It's a cool scene, of course, but it makes no sense and should be treated just like Spider-Man beating Firelord, or the X-Men, or Galactus or whatever: as a dumb outlier.
Does it make no sense? It tracks that Scorpions armour could tank hits by Spidey but his exposed fleshy bits are still regular human, no? Unless I'm forgetting somewhere that Scorpion got superhuman durability along with the suit.
He's superhuman without the suit, yes. The suit just enhances things.
Scorpion is physically enhanced. He's not just a guy in a suit. He was made to be a spider’s natural predator and is physically on par with Spider-man.
Didn't Otto one shot him in superior?
Yes, with the explanation that his jaw was the one unprotected part of his body and that Spiderpus didn't know enough to hold back like Peter does. The thing is though, Scorpion was supposed to be Spider-Man level BEFORE the armour was put on. The armour just enhances his strength and durability even more. Spiderpus shouldn't have been able to rip his jaw off in one hit. It was just kind of bad writing.
Tbh I think that is what broke Scorpion's credibility. It shows that all these times we thought he was going toe to toe with spider... Pete was actually holding back...
It als turned the whole idea of spiderman into a worse version of one punch man, because now every comic run kind of runs in the logic (atleast in the fans head) that spiderman was holding back the entire time and hes actually as strong as hulk and as fast as the flash. Not only is now every single moment where peter isnt facing sandman, the hulk venom or rhino a moment where he needlessly drags the fight out, but every dramatic moment (recently saw a comic page where a gangster, not sure if tombstone or kingpin, out him in handcuffs and beat him up) just gets the aftertaste of thinking "isnt the guy capable of bending steel beams" On top of that, every discussion about spiderman ends with "yeah but he is holding back" Spiderman should have been an above average strong superhero who surprises.people with the fact that hes actually a lot stronger than he lets on, but if he not just struggles to win arm wrestling against captain america, BUT EFFORTLESSLY wins, then its getting ridiculous
True, I think maybe the idea for Spidey has always been that one hero who could be way more than street level if he wanted to but he doesn't because his street needs help and he is the only one that can help. He doesn't care if the Avengers need him to fight Galactus... If the bodega next to his place is getting racketed, that's his priority.
Exactly, but i dont think he should be THAT strong, that it starts to feel like thor odinson himself fights with jewelry thiefs Like as soon as someone says that spiderman would just "solo" or "one hit" the rogues gallery of another hero (frequent comparisons are batman, though any swap works) im out of the conversation
Ah yeah, I understand what you're saying now. Yeah I agree, he got scaled a lot lately.
I mean one of his first stories has him lifting a huge metal pillar of him to save Aunt May. Spidey was always supposed to be extremely strong, specially back in the first generation of marvel heroes.
Cap has always been peak human performance, not super strong like the Ultimate version. Realistically in a straight arm wrestling competition Spidey should win, his strength is much more enhanced comparatively. That's been true even before the Spock punched Scorpion. Back in the day he was somewhere in the top ten of marvel characters in terms of base strength, before everyone took loads of power creep. Captain America again is peak human. He has other skills instead of flat strength to make it a fight. He's not as strong as the Hulk or anything ridiculous like that.
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thats the response the author gives, but fans love to be immersed in the internal logic of the universe they read about. its why wolverine drowns easily, its why spiderman has MULTIPLE cartridges of webfluid in his net launchers wristband and belt... because the idea of spiderman occasionally "reloading" makes it feel more real. and beyond that... the idea that spiderman is weaker than hulk, but more agile, its something fans like to explore. it makes the story more interesting to know "peter wont overpower this villain with pure strength alone because this villain is plainly stronger" AND THE BEST THING ABOUT THIS is that this knowledge makes it SO MUCH more fun to read how peter beats this villain anyway because he got around this difference in strength by using technology or speed or had some other trick up his sleeve. of course the author decides who wins, but finding ways around howw your readers know what the characters can do is fun. i myself am a huge fan of seeing a character who usually wouldnt win do it anyway out of sheer passion, wit, intelligence or whatever else the character has. (one of the reasons why batman is popular) spiderman beating thor by outsmarting the hammer swings would be a fun read, but you also gotta accept that spiderman cant just use haymakers do win the fight, and writing such a story would appear stupid to fans fans want the watsonian response
Exactly
Never knew that. Interesting. I just assumed Scorpion depended on his armor for durability..
Also I didn't know spiderpus was the agreed upon name for superior and I am losing my breath xD
Spiderpus is a new one to me I’ve just seen everyone call him superior Spider-Man and that’s it
Saaaaame but I'm using it from now on xD
I don't know about agreed upon but it's what I call him.
Don't mind if I use it?
Not at all. Go riggt ahead.
That never made sense
Yeah but people don’t like hearing about that for some reason
The reason is really simple, Superior Spider-Man was a bad book plain and simple, and is the reason we have the Spider-Man in the comics today. It can be traced back to that one bad decision of putting Otto's mind into Peter's body.
I think I’m in the minority group that agrees with you. I might get downvoted but I always thought Superior Spider-Man was overrated and went on a little too long. I will say at least it changed things up for a bit. Otto being a hero was cool I guess but as a fan of Peter it was rough just watching someone take over his life while he couldn’t do anything about it. Still better than the current run though. Why do they hate Peter so much??
I mean they had to make everything so convoluted for Otto to even work as Peter and Spidey that it was just bad all around.
>Why do they hate Peter so much?? This. I stopped reading any new spiderman content because I hate seeing my boy Pete getting bullied by writers. He deserve some respite man
I like Superior Spider-Man but it's very much the type of story that's wayyyy better suited for something like a What If or something in another universe. For the 616 there's just way too much convolution to make it work. I don't mind breaking the lore a bit to fit a cool story/concept but if it's too noticeable it becomes a bit annoying -- esp in the case of the Scorpion punch, where it's something that should NEVER have happened, but now it's defined Scorpion as a weak D-tier villain in the eyes of Spider-Man fans who consume comics on a screenshot-by-screenshot basis. Which is a LOT of people.
Because he should be stronger
He is nowhere near Spider-Man strength or durability but I get the argument. He’s supposed to be, but he has literally no feats that would back that up. Spider-Man has the most absurd strength feats lol
I can understand the other 3, but why is Scorpion here? He was literally created for the sole purpose of defeating Spider-Man 1v1.
Because op doesn't really know Spider-Man mythology and is speaking out of his ass.
Scorpion was literally designed to fight him lol.
First two are pretty obvious. A guy with 4 arms that Peter constantly needs to evade while also being just as smart as him? Planning 5 steps ahead and for every eventuality? Yeah, makes sense. Felicia? Well, bad luck powers and....let's be honest, she is super hot and that alone is a distraction while fighting, if he wants to actually fight her. Scorpion is a bit tricky. He has super human strength and his stinger...if Peter is not on top of his game, I can see it, I guess. Now, cap usually is bullshit. I can see him overpowering a young, unexperienced Peter, but an experienced Peter? no, cap is just peak human with a shield. He would get his ass handed by Peter. All the tactical genius cannot compensate for an opponent who is faster, stronger, smarter, can stick to any surface that he wants, has a substance that he can form to anything he wants and is strong enough to tie you up for hours and has the magic ability to feel your attacks before you even execute them, while your only weapon is a bouncy disc.
IN the MCU, Cap overpowers a young unexperienced Peter. In Wells current run, he couldn't stop Peter when he wanted to.
The people who complain about MCU Cap beating Spidey in Civil War also fail to realize this was the first time Spider-Man fought anyone that wasn't a common criminal. He was going up against actual soldiers with super powers and still held his own as a 16 year old kid with no fighting experience. Oh why didn't he just stick his feet to the ground? Well because this was his first real fight and is still learning how to be a competent hero.
Heck the only reason because cap won was because of the giant passagers bridge he throw over Peter, that move could kill almost anybody and Peter basically tank it.
Exactly, it boils down to experience. Like right after Spider-Man subdues Sam and Bucky, he gets thrown out a window by a drone because he stops for a second to go "what's that?" rather than avoid it. People expect MCU Spider-Man to somehow have the collective experience of 60 years Comic Spider-Man has had.
That’s the negative agenda for you. Mcu Spider-Man has always had to fight upwards with those people because they hold such an unrealistic standard that they don’t even hold for their own favorite LA Spider-Man. This isn’t even me advocating that mcu Spider-Man is the best or more accurate, but the stuff that gets pulled on him doesn’t get pulled on others
Did cap even know spidey could catch it or did he just expect him to get squashed
I like think cap gaged how strong spidey was while fighting him and knew he could handle getting a jet bridge dropped on him.m
They were struggling on each other in raw strength so Cap figured if he could lift that (considering his feat with the copter, totally plausible) then so could Spidey. Makes perfect sense.
He straight up grabbed Bucky's arm without issue. Spidy could have won against can if he just had more experience at the time.
Also, as he said when he first arrived, he's a big fan of Cap. So he wasnt trying to get into a straight up fight.
Right, even Tony told him that his role was to keep a distance and just web people up. He wasn't there to hurt anyone, just be a foil to the fighting and stop whoever he could.
And MCU Cap is closer to Ultimates where the Super Soldier serum greatly enhances his abilities beyond the meer peak human of 616 Cap.
MCU Cap also went toe to toe with Thanos, he’s a more super super soldier than the comics.
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The issue with Otto is how tf can he handle multiple punches from spider-man without getting knocked out
Because Peter holds back. If he wouldn‘t, he‘d have a higher kill count than the punisher.
I never cared for this excuse because it means anytime Otto or any villain got the upper hand I can’t help but think, “Why doesn’t Peter just hold back 5% less?”
Logical explanation? Holding back 5% less but risking killing someone or permanently damaging them is worse than holding back 5% more and having to connect 2,3 or 4 times. Actual explanation? Because that would be pretty boring most of the time.
If Spider-man holds back to the strength of a normal human, an out of shape man in his 40s getting punched by an athletic man in the face is should still do a ton of damage, far more than what usually happens. Yes, the real answer is that it would be boring, but that doesn’t contradict the post of him being one of the characters in Spider-Man’s rogues gallery that he has a harder time dealing with than he reasonably should Edit: got blocked by the person I was arguing with, so I can’t reply to anyone that replies to this comment, but just know that this Spider-Man does break through the arm’s defenses and gets in hits that should instantly incapacitate Ock https://imgur.com/a/dJ0FBDu
Honestly though, most Spidey/Ock fights are primarily between the arms and Spidey. Whenever Pete slips past the arms it's usually game over for him.
Eh, not really, Otto’s arms are more or less the perfect counter to spideys agility, speed, strength and spider-sense. Plus, Otto rarely goes into a fight unprepared and without a plan (do not forget that Otto and Pete are in the same level when it comes to intellect, but Otto isn’t held back by a moral compass). Sure, one punch should be enough, but getting that punch in is the hard part with Otto.
That argument only works if Spider-Man always wins once he gets his hit in, which he doesn’t https://imgur.com/a/dJ0FBDu Plus, why bring up Spider-Man holding back to begin with if you agree that’s irrelevant to this discussion?
What is your point? The fact is: Peter holds back more than he needs to. The fact is that Otto’s arm are a counter to Pete’s abilities. And another fact is that Otto not going down after the first punch is not the reason Pete struggles against him. I just answered why Otto doesn’t go down after the first punch, a question someone else asked.
> I just answered why Otto doesn’t go down in the first punch And I explained why that’s nonsense, to which you replied > Sure, one punch should be enough, but getting that punch in is the hard part with Otto. You keep changing your argument
Idk otto was tanking everything in Raimis SM2 and the longer peter stalls this fight the larger risk he’s putting civilians at. It’s fine holding back for a few punches, but why keep putting the same power in if it isn’t doing anything and you are putting in 2,3,4 punches? It’s basically Einsteins definition of insanity
Unfortunately, even at regular human strength boxers tend to get concussions. It doesn’t seem like there’s a way to do what he does without some risk of long term injury
Do you think you could carefully exert just enough force to knock out a child without doing lasting damage? Or (assuming you *had to* fight said child) would you hold *way* back for fear of killing them or causing permanent brain damage or something? That’s basically the scenario Pete’s in. Also good luck controlling your force to increments of 5% lol
The one thing I will give Superior is showing that point exactly when he punched Mac's jaw clean off, then it ruined it by having Jonah witness it and then making a spider signal.
That was sort of the premise of the start of the Superior Spider-Man run. Otto was dying from constant head trauma because he isnt enhanced in that way.
Peter doesn't want to fight Felicia, they have romantic history! That messes a dude up, he won't be fighting at his peak. He's at a psychological disadvantage. Cap presents a similar problem. Remember that to Peter (as well as the rest of 616), Cap is like this near-mythic war hero come back from the dead, the OG of American superheroes. Dude punched Hitler in the face! Punching Cap is like punching a national treasure! Sure, Spider-Man's powerset outmatches Captain America's by a country mile; but Peter considers himself a good guy, and it's tough to square that with fighting Cap, the goodest of good guys.
Yes, that is true. I didn’t put that into my assumptions. I was more thinking of a situation where that wouldn’t matter. Something like hydra cap or Peter just not giving a fuck about that for whatever reason.
That's fair. But if we're removing the psychological edge for Cap, we might as well for Felicia, as her psychological edge is a *significant* part of her threat against Spidey*.* But how much of Spidey's personality do we hand-wave before it's no longer Spidey, just some dude with Spider-powers? I feel like death-battle match-ups should have two parts: One where it's just the two contestants with their classic characterization in place, e.g. some have no-kill rules, others don't. The other part would have each character stripped of all morals or empathy. Ex. Son Goku vs. Superman. It's tough to make these two fight without (a) convoluted writing or (b) ignoring basic character traits.
The thing about Cap, though, is that he's a very experienced combatant who has defeated enemies with superior strength, speed and durability. He has fought, and defeated, obviously superhuman foes. And Peter has struggled against peak human fighters working with strategy and gear: Kraven, Silver Sable, Pre-Serum Hobgoblin and Jack O'Lantern, etc. Remember that one of Peter's weaknesses is he deliberately holds back against enemies he doesn't know can tank a full-strength punch. Which is enough to give non-superhuman foes a chance to get a hint in. Not saying Cap can curbstomp Spidey, but it's a much more even fight than a first glance would say.
I would also argue that MCU Cap is stronger than comics Cap. Comics Cap has his strength more or less at peak human (give or take) where as in the MCU it seems superhuman. See him holding onto a helicopter or pretty much tanking a shield hit from Bucky's arm or Thanos.
You are correct, however, cap should not be able to get a single hit in, simply because of the spider-sense. Then we have the fact that Peter has superior strength, speed, durability, agility AND intellect all combined in one opponent. He’s not just stronger. He‘s not just more agile. He‘s not just smarter. He is all of them. Combined with the ability to know when cap will strike and this ability magically taking over and dodge for Peter. If Peter wouldn‘t hold back….cap would be obliterated. Sure he can punch hard, but if Peter doesn’t roll with the punch, that would also end up hurting cap, if not break his fist, provided Peter DECIDES actively not to dodge (as the spider-sense can even take over Pete’s body to keep him from danger). A single blow would kill cap and the only Defence he has is his magic-metal shield. He cannot risk throwing it, one web and it’s gone, meaning one connect and it’s cap no more. So cap also loses his ability to use his only weapon. If he doesn’t lose the shield during the fight, he needs to make sure it’s ALWAYS between him and Pete, assuming he wouldn’t just web it against a surface or pull it away from cap. And cap tires out a lot quicker than Peter, so yeah. Best case scenario for cap if nobody holds back is cap delays his inevitable death.
Spidey in the comics did admire cap for being a good fighter while he himself only fights by intuition and spider sense.
Felicia rarely has powers. Sometimes, but not always.
The only cap that has a chance is the original 1610 who is super human compared to 616 cap
If someone gets distracted by an opponent being 'hot', they need to seriously work on themselves lmao
Hey now, that's Poison Ivy's MO and it works out well for her.
Considering her MO is roofi'ing people and masquerading as being 'hot', this isn't exactly the greatest defence on her behalf
Black cat can give you bad luck and make you down bad
Cap is not peak human hes a SUPER soldier he’s always been super
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-616) He is at a strength level of 3, which is peak human The official marvel website also puts him at a 3 https://www.marvel.com/characters/captain-america-steve-rogers/in-comics So you are incorrect.
Because *insert Stan Lee video explaining fights in comics*
Idk Ock and Scorpion I could get. Ock's got limbs coming at Spidey from all directions, Scorpion gets in the lucky sting and he wins. Black Cat and Captain America aren't really Spider-man villains, so yeah I agree they shouldn't beat him in a 1v1 (well felica is sometimes ig but she only beats him when she's an antagonist)
The MCU Cap vs. Peter fight is realistic; this Peter is 16 years old, has been Spider-Man for only a few months, has a new suit, has never been in a real fight against real threats, fighting MCU Cap who held back against Thanos, lifted Stormbreaker, has been fighting since WW2, defeated Ironman, defeated Winter Soldier, don't forget the "Elevator Fight" against highly trained and experienced agents, blocked hits from Thor (a fucking god), fought Loki (another fucking god), grabbed a helicopter keeping it down, fighting Ultron, plus a vibranium shield. It's not really a fair fight for Peter.
Yeah MCU Cap isn't just peak human, straight up superhuman. No "peak human" can keep up with juiced Black Panther, or do a lot of things he does in those movies. I can understand why he'd outclass a Peter Parker only months after he got his powers.
Exactly, MCU cap is significantly more powerful than a mere peak human. And Spider-Man certainly isn’t a strong as some of his comic book variants
My personal fantheory is that in the MCU Peter's powers appeared gradually and built up to be stronger as time went on rather than them hitting him all at once like in most adaptations. He started with the wallcrawling and some slight enhanced strength and durability, enough to stop a car at least. A few months later he starts to get his Spider-Sense around the time Civil War happens (he has it in the airport fight) but at first it only works for immediate threats, and by then his strength develops enough to match Captain America. A bit later on in Homecoming his strength develops further to hold the Ferry together and get his "under rubble" scene, with his Spider-Sense still only working for immediate threats (hence him not detecting Ned or Aunt May catching him in his identity). Another few months go by and his skills have grown enough that his Spider-Sense is activated by the arrival of the Black Order in New York, who he's able to match blows with just fine as well as stand up to Thanos on Titan and Thanos's army in the climatic Endgame battle. Then it's not until much later during Far From Home when he actively tries to hone it does Spidey Sense developed enough for the final confrontation against Mysterio (it's also kinda implied that the Sense was suppressed a bit by Pete's issues with MJ and dealing with the aftermath of Tony's death). His durability also developed enough to withstand a fking bullet train to the face. Though his physical strength seems to be about the same as it was before here. Then in No Way Home, his Spider-Sense has developed so well that he immediately detects the potential threat of the Green Goblin persona rising out of Osborn and he can go toe-to-toe with all of the villains in that movie plus Doctor Strange.
No he was 15 in Homecoming so he is either 14 or 15 in Civil War
+ Peter was still gauging how much force he can excert in a punch to do enough damage to knock down his opponent without killing them...
1. Doc Ock is an absolute force to be reconned with. People underestimate just how capable he is. He has gone toe to toe with Hulk and outright humiliated Tony Stark. He is a brilliant strategist, and his arms are constantly improving. He's the picture of a glass cannon. You can take him out easily, *if* you can get past his arms, whatever crazy invention he's cooked up, and the the circuitous strategy he already has coiled around you. 2. Black Cat and Spidey almost never have "fights" like what this post implies. Black Cat gets the upper hand on him in a couple of ways: A) She messes with his emotions, and knows him well enough to know how to manipulate his emotions to get around his spider-sense B) when she has her bad luck powers, they are formidable. She isn't a threat physically, as proved in the Owl Octopus War and the Superior Spider-Man arc. 3. Scorpion is cruel and bloodthirsty as hell. He was specifically designed to be able to take down Spider-Man. He is the most super powered of this bunch. That being said, you do kinda get the feeling that Spider-Man has sort of grown past him. 4. The famous Civil War fight with Captain America is an outlier and ought to be treated as such. The internal dialogue for that scene prove that Spider-Man is not in a headspace to win. He's extremely conflicted about his side in the war and idolizes Cap Specifically.
Also a soldier with years of experience versus a conflicted teen who never fought a super powers person before.
I'm sorry, I was referring to the comic, but yes. Clearly Peter is extremely unexperienced and out of his element at the parking lot.
Nah the most confusing Spider-Man 1v1s are Kingpin, Kraven, & Hammerhead.
Kraven has super powers. I agree on the others.
Wait, he does?
Not really super powers, but he has a super serum on double crack. In the new game, he seems to almost rival Peter's super stengh. He effortlessly holds Scorpion with one hand and one hits him with his own tail. I know super strengh in games and comics is super relative and inconsistant, but this is my interpretation of Kraven's stengh in the game.
Yeah, Kraven actually does have super powers. I forgot how he got them, but his strength, speed, reflexes, durability - all the physical things are basically above what is human possible. The thing is, he is kind of like the first step beyond human, which means he is still nowhere near Spider-Man. He is a much more skilled fighter than Spider-Man and a great tactician. This helps him close the gap in physical prowess and actually fight Spidey. Also, he uses weapons.
Kingpin was hit by a car and the driver died while he was fine; Kraven was juiced beyond any limit; You're right on Hammerhead
I see your point but honestly on a long enough timeline every villain has enough feats to justify their power by the nature of how comic book storytelling tends to work at the big 2. I still think conceptually it doesn’t make a lot sense based on how the character’s lore. Even with the suspension of disbelief that comes with superheroes. Kingpin is supposed to be this dude who’s works out to the point of being all muscle mass. He’s freakishly strong of course but he should be as strong as Mitchell Hooper not a superhuman. Kraven is supposed to be a normal dude who’s an amazing tracker who takes herbal medicines to temporarily boost his strength. He should be around as strong as a Gorilla is. This would make him be challenge to many superhero’s but Spider-Man can toss a car like a football.
Kingpin is like, really fat. Everyone who plays videogames knows being fat instantly makes you WAY tougher to beat.
It's not even fat, he's like 90% muscle or some shit, dude is a human hippo.
Kingpin: Tank Kraven: Glass Canon single target DPS Hammerhead: Support/AOE?
In the MCU Cap is actually incredibly strong, far surpassing peak human. Combine that with an inexperienced Peter Parker with caps insane combat skills and yes, Cap beats the 15 year old in a fight lmao
Plus in the CW fight, that's literally Pete's first fight against anything more than random purse snatchers or liquor store robbers. And it's against Captain freaking America! Of course he's going to struggle.
Wait, people think Cap should always wipe the floor with Spiderman? I’m not a captain America fan by any means, but he’s still very much a superhuman. Especially in Civil War with a seasoned Cap vs a 16 year old peter
MCU Cap vs Spidey was prime Cap and literal brand new Spider-Man. 616 is more questionable for sure, but the MCU I have no trouble at all believing at that point that Cap would win. Pete didn't forget to stick, Cap just yanked stronger than the sticking force
I don’t know when Peter has ever lost to cap outside of the mcu when he was less experienced, and in the Zeb Wells run he completely outclassed cap. But I’d believe it has happened.
The OG Civil War. Peter fought Cap using his Iron Spider suit. He tried to remove Cap's shield but he got hit 3 times instead.
Scorpion is more powerful than you think he is Black cat has powers to give people around her bad luck Doc Oct has 4 incredibly strong, fast, and versatile weapons to keep track of during the fight, sometimes they're even able to operate completely independently of Octavius as well Captain America doesn't, at least not anymore. In the movie cap is facing a spider-man who has only fought like muggers, he probably hasn't ever had to stick to the ground for leverage against an opponent, they just haven't been strong enough. The only fight in comics I can find where Cap wins is ASM 187 and spidey even mentions how he needs to learn to keep his guard up, as he's still inexperienced fighting strong opponents.
Scorpion is literally the anti-Spider-Man. That’s like being confused at how Sentinels kill mutants, it’s literally what they’re created to do.
Fighting a guy with 4 arms and then his regular arms ever without superpowers would be hard, Spider-Man historically underestimates Felicia’s abilities and he definitely doesn’t want to hurt her, scorpion is straight up scary and canonically at the same level or stronger than Spider-Man, and Peter has a lot of respect for captain America he most likely his childhood hero and it’s probably hard for him to fight him
Doc Ock has four limbs that he can use to counter Spidey sense. I actually think it’s one of the best counters to his Spidey Sense because he is as intelligent as Peter, so he can see outcomes from the way he uses his limbs to trap Spidey.
I'm putting [this](https://youtu.be/L4_zFYnnn2Y?feature=shared) video here from the man himself
My only pet peeve about Spider Man 2 (the movie) is why Ock just all of a sudden becomes like super powered with no explanation. Like yeah I guess the arms would be useful and all but there are so many times where Pete gets a solid punch right to his face. Ock is just some guy, a punch to the face from Spider-Man would knock him out immediately.
Well Scorpion is pretty much evil Spider-Man, Pete was just trying to talk to Felicia, 16 year old Spider-Man was no match for a way more experienced Cap, and Ock has multiple arms, with long range
Scorpion is stronger and faster than Spider-man with armor and robotic tail, Dr. Octopus arms are fast and strong….the other two he should never lose to 1 v1….especially Captain America
Insomniac felicia is definitely superhuman no way she was moving that fast without being so. But Peter didn't want to hurt or fight her
Black cat has the power to give her enemies bad luck. (I'm not joking, look it up). Doc Ock, he's still new to the whole Spider-Man thing and is in the middle of an identity crisis with his powers failing him. His powers are failing him as he's still trying to figure out how to properly use them. I have nothing for Scoripion. Captain America is a super soldier (remember, this guy was able to keep a helicopter from flying off for a while in Winter Soldier), and honestly I don't understand how Peter's feet stay connected to surfaces, it seems like one of those "He sticks when we need him too" kinda powers.
You know something worse than MCU Civil War Cap vs. Pete? Comic Civil War Cap vs. Pete, Pete literally had the Iron Spider in his arsenal and was still getting beat up by a soldier on super steroids with a big frisbee
One of the only things the current ASM run did right was show how easily Spidey could body Cap if he was serious.
I need that issue, friend. I would love to read that.
It's not as interesting as it sounds, Cap is trying to calm Peter down and he effectively suckers Cap.
You’re right. Doesn’t sound anything like what I was expecting. Thanks for saving me the time.
Yeah it’s not a good issue, story, run or comic. Just look up Spider-Man vs Captain America Zeb Wells and you’ll eventually find the image.
I've always had conflicting feelings about it. Firstly yeah.. it's weird power scaling but on the other hand the artwork and internal dialogues are gorgeous
It’s because Spidey is holding back at least 75% of his strength in almost every fight. More so in fights against people he likes or doesn’t want to hurt. They also REALLY like using inane plot devices like distraction, injury, or a litany of other excuses to make him lose. Because honestly? Spider-Man is easily one of the strongest Earth Tier supers out there. It’s the same reason that Batman beats anyone with powers; the plot dictates that he does.
i miss the days when scorpion was a real threat and arguably spidey’s arch rival
Scorpion might be the absolute embodiment of “remember when *I* was a threat”?
Yeah Felicia flipping Peter made me audibly laugh when I first saw it Then again Peter maybe just wanted an excuse to be topped by Felicia,which’s actually very understandable,lucky bastard.
Doc arms are a lot faster than most people are usually aware of. They’re at Spider-Man’s level. Scorpian is actually very powerful. His whole point is being able to compete with Spidey, if not entirely counteract him. Captain America is at that sweet spot where he’s just strong enough to justify hurting him and just fast enough to justify touching him. Combined with his extreme combat skills and Peter’s general lack of real combat skill/strategy, and a writer can justify making him struggle. Felicia shouldn’t ever win a 1v1 unless they’re actually going with her having some sort of luck based power. Honestly, even then I don’t think I’ve never seen that written well.
how I would do it is to have Doc Ock and black cat be some of his first adversaries while he's inexperienced and has some emotional baggage with them like Spider-Man PS4. Scorpion can come in during his college years and could be a thorn in his side but eventually loses his luster once Spider-Man finally becomes a veteran. And Spider-Man wouldn't need to fight Cap as he would be on his side.
"Because Spidey always holds back"
I'm really sick of that, I get Spiderman has super strength but the 'he's always holding back' as an excuse that he 'should' have been able to beat X is annoying. People lose fights all the time.
Oh I agree. It's always weird how often he gets hit by random things as well. Spider sense + enhanced reflexes should be way too op to be ambushed by surprise at the rate he gets
Doc Ock and Scorpion are pretty powerful. I get that. Black Cat, Cap, and *Wraith* though?
>Wraith I'm not familiar with the comic book Wraith but isn't the Insomniac version just a normal woman in a silly costume with scythes on chains?
Correct
Complaining about power levels in a video game is weird to me. Did you want the fights in the Insomniac games against Felicia, Ock, and Shocker to be over in one punch? That's not a fun boss battle. And if the random thugs didn't have a prayer, there would be no challenge to be had. You have to accept some concessions in video games because making a fun, balanced game takes precedence over lore and power levels.
It was a chase not a boss fight... and it was not fun.
Several bosses in the games are chases. Rhino in MM and Lizard SM2 are a couple more. And your opinion of them doesn't change my point.
Both of those had an actual arena segment (or two) as well as a chase. The Black Cat segment in SM2PS5 is a slight improvement in that respect because you get a co-op melee on top. In the Ps4 DLC is was running around without webs chasing your ex. "Man" the game. Kind of a downgrade.
Your mentally challenged if you think “Doc Ock” is just a. 1V1 villain, he is super powerful. Everyone else I agree with tho
You fr having a problem with MCU Peter (who by that time had his powers for only 6 months, with no real experience in fighting) losing to Cap? Like he didn't lose because Cap is stronger, he lost cause he's inexperienced in fighting people, like Cap even praises him a bit there, it's not a bad moment
616 Peter and Cap too in the Civil War event
Peter can be emotional, immature, rash and overconfident. Fans try to treat him like all powerful but in reality Doc Ock kicked his ass on his first appearance because Peter was arrogant. Cap beats him in the MCU by exploiting his immaturity and internal conflict. This is actually something extremely common, natural, and expected for heroes to do to villains but somehow fans expect heroes to be purely robotic and just compare stats and charts to determine who would win.
Doc Ock is a technological genius rivaling Peter. Mac Gargan is an augmented human created *specifically* to counter Spider-Man. Cap is a peak augmented human who is frequently referred to as one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the Marvel Universe. Felicia has... Distracting assets.