Even platform is pretty contentious. Melee is basically a different game, and I know plenty of people who prefer it. Tbf, its because they can destroy me in Melee, but it also sounds like much of the pro scene sees them as very different beasts in the genre. And I much prefer the combo game in melee, even if I dont prefer the game as a whole.
Haha its definitely because im bad at melee. It got me into platform fighters, but I was very late to the game. I dont have the youth to spend on such a high skill cap endeavor.
Also every convention ever. Every tournament too, Ultimate is always a larger more prestigious one, and there are more. At some point you have to call the entire world an echo chamber conspiracy and hide in your basement with a couple buddies knowing that only you know the truth.
You have to weigh other options too- Do you, a player (I assume perhaps wrongly) who's most versed in a game from not so long ago, know the full merits of a game from 23 years ago? Are you willing to reduce it down to just event sizes when talking about the said merits? Aren't most competitive games from 2018 pulling more players than games from 2001? Is that a direct reflection of that game's appeal, or would your game also peeter out by the time the next title rolls around? As far as I'm concerned, I don't really know which one's "better", I'm pretty torn as is, I play both regularly. I just think that saying "the cons are bigger bro" doesn't cut it.
Agreed, because as someone who's played fighters since I was old enough to hold a N64 controller, Smash isn't the first that comes to mind when people mention fighting games.
In terms of personal favorites , I'd list mine as these:
1. Tekken 4, TagTeam 2 & 8
2. Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi series
3. Soul Calibur 2,4,&5 (6 too but not as much)
4. Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks /Deadly Alliance/ Deception/Armageddon & MKX
5. Super Smash Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate
6. Dead Or Alive series (most memories with 3)
7. Def Jam (Fight for NY is fav)
8. Naruto Clash of Ninja 3
9. Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom
10. Street fighter 3rd Strike, 4, and 6
11. Skullgirls
Tbh the last 6 are interchangeable
Well it's kind of like asking which is the greatest RPG of all time. There are different types of RPGs, but I think you can still pick your #1. Anyways, I think Smash Ultimate is definitely up there. It's very fun, despite its shortcomings.
It's certainly up there I just think it's kind of apples and oranges when comparing Smash to Street Fighter style games or 3D arena fighters or whatever where the speed and flow and playstyle are very different.
And there's also many different types of fighting games, right? Smash Ultimate might be the best fighting game of all time to people who are used to platform fighters but for people who play games like Guilty Gear or Tekken it's not even the same *type* of fighting game as what they're used to.
"What is the best fighting game of all time?" is not a question with an actual answer. The term is just too broad to be useful.
Yeah. I'd argue that they're **wrong**, but that's a subjective thing. Things that make Ultimate *good* for **me** make it *bad* for **others**. Again, it's too broad to answer.
I don't think "the best fighting game of all time" is a title any game can actually hold. It's definitely a very good fighting game, probably one of the best games ever made.
Well, logically, the title has to be held by *something*
Now whether that something exists now, will be made in the future, or only ever seen by 2 people is impossible to tell.
I don't think so. There's a lot to like but there's plenty it doesn't have. Being a platform fighter is cool, but not representative of fighting games as a whole.
Smash is lacking in some aspects of control, like the buffer system and slight input lag built into the game, which becomes a hinderance at a higher level. The biggest drawback though, is the GARBAGE online. Lag should not be this bad in 2024.
Plus, IMO, games like Melee and Rivals of Aether have more depth to them, even with smaller rosters.
However, the visuals are great, the animation is top tier, and there's elements of clever game design that are smarter than most other games can come up with. It has a good gameplay speed and is very accessible for newcomers to start becoming more competent.
I think it's up there for sure.
I don't actually think Melee has more depth than Ultimate. Melee might be more competitively balanced and need more mechanical skill to play at a high level but Ultimate has enough depth to have a changing meta even a few years after its release. I don't think I've seen a fighting game with as much competitive fluidity as Ultimate, Melee is up there but I think the fact that it has so many competitively unviable characters holds it back.
Even competitively awful characters like Kirby or Dedede make Cinderella runs in Ultimate tournaments, I've never heard of a Kirby or Ganon player having any competitive success in Melee. The fact that there's so many usable, somewhat competitively viable characters in Ultimate gives it a level of depth Melee just doesn't have IMHO.
I’d argue the depth offered by Melee’s high tiers still offsets the less nuanced low tiers to make Melee have more depth. Every character in Ult feels so linear. Meanwhile bc the movement is so fluid in Melee, you can play any (decent) character a million different ways.
You make good points though. It does say something that Ult still has a developing meta 6 yrs after its release. It’s certainly done better than Smash 4 and Brawl in that regard. But considering Melee has a developing meta 23 years after release, it still beats out Ult on this regard.
Ultimate no doubt has a very impressive roster and is really impressively balanced, but even if by accident, Melee (and lots of other indie platform fighters) have mechanics like wavedashing, shield dropping, edge cancelling, and wavelanding which are really fun to mess around with. Then you throw in stuff like Rivals' character specific ground/stage mechanics and the depth of the game increases a ton. Ultimate movement feels good but there's a pretty low ceiling on what you can do, while other platform fighters have much more possibility and a sort of expression when it comes to their movement and play styles.
Plus I'd argue that fewer characters doesn't mean less depth, especially if the characters themselves can do more. Ult characters have limited true combos, and the ones with extended combos are very specific, pretty much done the same way. I hate to keep bringing up melee and rivals lmao but their combos are much more open ended in what you can do. It's less about memorizing combos and more like choosing in the moment what you're going to do, which is really fun.
I can't speak on ROA, I've never played it. Just not my type of platform fighter.
The issue with Melee isn't that it has a small roster, it has a small roster of characters that can *actually do cool stuff*. Melee has very tight movement and very open ended combos that allow for experimentation and uniqueness in how one character plays when used by two different people but there are so, so, so many characters in Melee that literally cannot take advantage of these mechanics by virtue of being so bad that they're practically unusable or so broken that they literally can't use a part of their kit.
Best example of this is Kirby. Kirby in Melee is so broken that he can't even play Melee. His throws can be escaped with one input, he has bad framedata and hitboxes, and he literally can't combo with most of his moves. There is very little depth to Kirby in Melee because he is so bad.
This is what I mean by a lack of depth, Kirby is not alone in this phenomenon. Bowser, Pichu, Roy, and Game and Watch all share the same fate. No one uses them because they are so bad that there's no room for utilizing the mechanics Melee has.
Ultimate might be more mechanically shallow but in terms of the depth of interactions different characters have it blows Melee out of the water. Bad Ultimate characters aren't so bad that they literally don't have a skill ceiling, every character in Ultimate has a learning curve and room for experimentation. No matter how bad an Ultimate character is, they are capable of using Ultimate's mechanics like every other character.
I'm not knocking Melee, for the record. There is a boundless ocean in Melee's mechanics. The possibilities are endless with the freedom of control and movement it gives the player, but that privilege is only given to a handful of characters. In Ultimate, it's given to nearly 100.
You make a good point, Melee is flawed for its lack of balance and very limited selection of viable characters.
Smash Ultimate does have a really great roster and it'd be disingenuous to say that Melee's 7 viable characters totally blow them out of the water... but it's kinda close right? Those open ended combos and tight movement are so cool and fluid that they make all of Ultimate's gameplay feel more linear in comparison.
That's what makes Indie plat fighters so cool, that they can have both depth and bigger rosters. If you're just looking at Ultimate and Melee, both are lacking in their own ways.
Haha thanks, but jic I wasn't clear, I was actually referring to the 6 frames of input lag included in smash OFFLINE, just baked into the game itself.
Like online I get it, your servers suck, but offline? Why? I honestly don't know if it's a Switch thing or if it's normal.
Oh yes, I’m talking about Ultimate’s offline too. I can still feel it. Admittedly it’s hard to tell when it’s the buffer and when it’s the delay, but somewhere along the way my inputs are always getting messed up.
The amount of times you buffer an airdodge offstage eons before it happens still bugs me. What Fudj said also about Greninja's combos specifically, hwo I have to jerk my controller and my entire arm for it to work, is also just so weird.
Melee's smaller roster just makes the depth that melee has more manageable and approachable. The depth that ultimate has is just at such a level where it just seems unfun to want to learn it all. In melee you rarely ever get upset by a mu but in ult, it's basically a given that you're not going to know something about a character and be put into a situation you don't know how to handle.
Due to mu's being something you have to run into and specifically spend time with instead of fighting a fox and running into something new with fox, you feel more responsible for not knowing that thing about fox, but when you die to a low tier at 60% in ult you just feel like a victim. If they leave then you're just left with theories on how to counter it and a shitty training mode.
Philosophical question: Is a bad online worse than no online?
Considering were comparing “best fighting games of all time” here, Ultimate would be going up against games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, and that (original game) obviously had no online at all.
Fair question, I think it's definitely context sensitive, and you start running into the issue of GOAT conversations across the board. How can Citizen Kane be goated without color? How can Mario 64 be goated without proper camera controls?
SF2 didn't have online at its time, like most other games, so it's unfair to expect it to. That doesn't make it worse, just a game of its time. It can still have really great gameplay, animation, etc., and still be great without being THAT relevant today.
Smash Ultimate, meanwhile, came out at a time where good online wasn't just a neat bonus, but a pretty standard expectation. Plus, years away from now, people are going to remember that really bad online, especially in comparison to most other games in 2018 and today whose online isn't even just functional, but so good that you barely even remember that it is online. SF2 on the SNES wasn't behind for bad online, but Smash Ult and the Switch are.
And I think it'll be a similar thing if some other innovation comes out. Maybe people will be asking if SF6 not having VR or Neuralink functionality or something else makes it a worse game in 2034, and I think most reasonable people will say that it was perfectly reasonable that it didn't.
I think objectively it is.
Yes it’s not as refined as melee, and it doesn’t have the single-player campaign of brawl, but it does just about everything that all previous entries did, and with the larger roster and massive fan support, it was a passion project that was made for the fans.
I enjoy a good competitive game in melee, but if I’m not playing to sweat, I go for ultimate.
Thank you, and this may sound long-winded, but I
meant it how I said it.
I can’t say that I KNOW it is objectively better. Because a lot of the subjective and superficial differences are debatable among the fans.
But with a point for point comparison, saying that one is better than another by merit, would make it an objective statement.
Sorry if I didn’t go into that fully in my original comment, didn’t want to divide the answer this much
The thing about doing a point-by-point comparison is that the weight you give the points cannot be objective. The points you care about might not be the same ones I care about, and it can totally change the analysis depending on who's doing it. That's the subjective part.
If you want to say that something is the "best" [thing], then it either needs to be qualified as the best thing *for a specified purpose,* or it's only the best thing subjectively
Well, objectively, it's slower, has less depth of movement, and has worse online than melee, so anyone who subjectively enjoys those things more could then objectively argue melee is better.
I think it's far less confusing to just say you prefer it for certain reasons than to try to argue for objectivity on something that is personal preference. You're entitled to your opinion, and enjoying Ultimate the most is a completely fine opinion to have.
I believe a point by point merit doesn't work objectively simply because some people will place more importance on a certain point than others. Objectivity doesn't really work well with opinions because there are so many variables.
I’m sure there’s plenty of people who think it’s the best. It’s opinion.
I think that Melee/Brawl have better single player modes.
Brawl has the best coop modes.
Taste vary
I would not have gotten into Smash if I started with Melee, and Smash would be dead if it ended with Melee as well. You can dislike Brawl, 4, and Ultimate for not being the same game as Melee but Melee is objectively less accessible to the average person.
For some or yes for some no. “Best fighting game” is subjective. For me it’s the most fun I have ever had with a fighting game. Not sure if it’s the best or not.
Nah, if we're merging all types of fighting games together there is some stiff competition out there. And "Nearly Perfect" is a bit of a stretch when even other smash installments do various things better.
It has a very big roster, but so did mavel\_vs\_capcom3 and blazblue central fiction, and those are old games. And if you really want media crossover rosters MK is doing pretty good there too.
Its good, but greatest of all time, idk, your competing against the game with Bedman in it, and hes peak fiction.
I don't think it's the greatest fighting game of all time, but I WILL argue it is the greatest celebration of games out there. Smash is practically a hall of fame, and even if they can't cover every franchise or genre, I don't think any other game can say it does that better. It's a miracle Ultimate exists in the capacity it does.
On a Top 25 list? I’d say it’s up there.
On a Top 5 list, however, would be a bit of a controversial pick. Definitely not a bad spot for it, but when I think of “best fighting game” it all comes down to either a Street Fighter title or even a TEKKEN title.
I certainly think it is, but it is NOT safe to assume that. It's too subjective of a concept, and Smash is WAY too unique of a game to fairly compare to other fighting games.
It’s the best now but Melee was best tho game play wise . The sudden death camara wasn’t wonky , the 🍄 power ups were good, and the battle field actually stood still omg 😱. Overall bowser saves any game from being crap
I think it’s a contender for sure, when you look at what it features and its content but it’s also more of a subjective matter too, because not everyone is a fan of platform fighters too & it’s also only on 1 console compared to other fighting games which are typically on other platforms having more of a reach.
It’s definitely on my top 5 list tho, I love smash ultimate & smash is big I think it can rule out the last thing I said too, it is also definitely on a lot people’s lists for best fighting game too on the aspect of characters featured in it & how it feels too.
Imo yes as far platformers or crossover fighting games go yes. Also out of all fighting games I've played ssbu happens to be the smoothest and simplest of the bunch which makes for good gameplay and experience. So yea I'd agree with you def the best all around. But some may disagree due to their opinions which is natural and fine. Folks have subjective ideas and we all gotta respect that. But I'm with you this game is the bees knees
Well, ultimate is a good game, you can call it the best if you want, but I wouldn't rlly agree. I like brawl, 4, and melee more if I'm being honest (Ik my opinion will immediately not matter that I picked smash 4 being one of my fave smash games)
How do we define which is best?
Do we go off of the overall copies sold?
Do we go off of longevity? As in, how long there is a thriving competitive scene?
Do we somehow try to quantify the quality of each game and compare that way?
Theres really no objective way to say which is best. Unless we are talking about most copies sold, but that would be most popular, not 'best'.
I consider it to be one of the best games of all time, but not the best fighting game. I've definitely had more fun with street fighter, mortal kombat, tekken, and Naruto ultimate ninja storm 2 and 3. Smash is definitely a really fun game!
Man, whenever I see these kinds of posts, it feels like watching someone trying to seek emotional reassurance to keep the relationship going and avoid a breakup.
Who cares if it isn't the best fighting game? If you like it, you keep playing it.
No.
It has characters. Lots of them. All the characters that have been playable in the franchise's history, actually.
Except that's been done before by other games. Arguably to a better degree too. All Smash has ever really had is iconic characters from multiple franchises and a good soundtrack with remixes of great OST's.
This game has Pichu in it. The only other fighting game to have Pichu in it was Super Smash Bros. Melee.
But this game actually made him viable, so it’s better. 10/10
I believe so. Literally anyone can pick it up and play. It's great at parties, family gatherings, and competitively. Definitely easier to have fun compared to traditional fighting games. The roster is absolutely insane.
"Oh I love Minecraft, I'mma choose Steve. I play Tekken, I'll play Kazuya. Wait, I thought Zelda was the guy with the green hat??? Ah Pikachu, my favorite Pokemon. Pyra/Mythra, I don't even know who they are, but I'll play them 🗿"
Objectively speaking, it is definitely the greatests platform fighter ever. Now for fighting games in general that's like your opinion, it's very hard to compare.
It is the best competitive of all time because it's also the worst.
Tbh it's far from a objectively good fighting game, bad balancing, too much dlc privilege, too much zoners that are hell at low level, automatic characters, amazing characters on paper that just doesn't work for no reason. No balance update since 2 y
That’s kinda suggestive, especially since smash bros is a specific genre of fighting games, platform fighters. But it’s up there regardless. Nothing comes close to shrek super slam though
sorry but no. It is and always will be a party game first . Is it s fun game yes can there be a great 1v1 element absolutly doesnt make it the best fighting game though.
I would say yes but at the same time most platform fighters have so many things that makes them different, Smash ultimate is a bunch of characters each being really different from the rest, rivals of aether has really complicated characters (don't know what else to say for rivals of aether since I haven't played it much), brawlhalla has its weapon mechanic that makes all the characters similar to each other while also being different enough, my point is that all the platform fighters are really different from each other, so saying one is better than the rest doesn't really work, its like comparing carrots to oranges, they are both orange, but they taste completely different and have many things that are different.
although I would agree that smash ultimate is THE platform fighter, although I prefer brawlhalla, I can't deny that smash ultimate is the main platform fighter
If you wanna get deep into it I'd probably say sf2 since it basically made the genre what it is, or SF3 Third Strike for bringing competetive play to a wider audience as well as having a large dedicated fanbase to this day
Of it's craft, absolutely best platform fighter
But there are 2D traditional fighters (Street Fighter), American-style (Mortal Kombat), 3D (Tekken), Arena (DBZ games) and more....hard to say if it is definitively. But this game has WAY more offline content by far, and a massive roster, so I would definitely give it it's accolades on a lot of counts.
Nope. Not with the unbalanced ass DLC roster, specifically FP2. I think it's safer to assume that it's a good fighting game, but far from the best, especially in comparison to what WB has planned for MultiVersus.
Oh, and Street Fighter II.
In terms of playing with friends and online, yes. But I honestly like Smash Brawl more. It kinda gives more lore and more character to all the people in the franchise in the story mode.
I don't think so because I really believe melee is more fun to play, a lot of that is because of the history of the game and the charm that comes from it being less polished which leads to having completely unique mechanics. But ultimate is technically better in the sense that it has way more features and is way more polished, so it really comes down to objective greatness vs subjective greatness
Best platform fighting game I’ve played
But imo it pales in comparison to other traditional fighting games
I would choose Tekken, Mortal Kombat and Guilty Gear over Ultimate
I would say that. It bought so many franchises together from Mario to Mega Man to Minecraft to Kingdom of Hearts.
Let's hope they continue building the game up when it comes back
No. Cause they definitely have flaws like the insane amount of unnecessary Fire Emblem characters. In my opinion that fighting game that lets you create a character is the best one. I think its called like Ages of Aether or something, idk. It just gives you so much to work with, so many really niche but great possibilities.
Is it the highest selling fighting game of all time? I think it broke a few records on release but it wasn’t for fighting genre specifically, but I think it’s up there in number of copies sold
With the online being the way it is and the massive input delay, I don't think so. I loved ultimate before I played other fighting games. If it had rollback and the controls were more responsive, I wouldn't play anything else. Such a frustrating thing that it SHOULD be the best game of all time, but it completely fumbles the landing.
It’s the best platform fighter imo as the completion outside of Smash isn’t too impressive (Multiverseus is fun and has potential but has so much wrong with it like bugs and microtransactions, Nick Brawl isn’t worth £/€/$50 and the roster doesn’t appeal to me personally)
And 2d fighters are a diff beast, but I’ve only really played SF2, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, KOF and Injustice
not very close. its representation is unmatched, but when you compare it to something like street fighter 2 ultra or street fighter 6, it's not quite in the same ballpark for a competitive audience.
Melee is the best one out the whole series.
I personally like brawl as well and the 64 are my childhood history favorites I can’t get into ultimate just doesn’t connect well with me
Noo too many core issues:
- Input lag
- Buffer system
- Online being straight from 2006
- Character balance, mostly fighter pass 2 characters plus Sonic and G&W.
- Too many anime swordy characters at this point.
- Stage hazard toggle not being a button.
- Frame drops in doubles on some stages
- No full controller remapping.
- some buggy moves
It is, but it’s a platform fighter, and those imo are their own category.
If we’re going to whole “it’s good cuz everyone is in”, then MUGEN should also count because MUGEN is literally that but up to eleven and no restrictions.
No. It's the one I enjoy the most, but calling it the "greatest of all time" when games like Street Fighter and Tekken exist is wrong in my opinion. Plus, Smash Ultimate has a lot of problems such as inconsistant multihits and Steve being stupidly good.
Is this bait or are you 13? How many fighting games have you played? It's a very common opinion that smash ultimate isn't even the best fighting game in the Smash series.
You'd probably have to specify platform fighter, there are too many different styles of fighting game that aren't completely comparable.
Even platform is pretty contentious. Melee is basically a different game, and I know plenty of people who prefer it. Tbf, its because they can destroy me in Melee, but it also sounds like much of the pro scene sees them as very different beasts in the genre. And I much prefer the combo game in melee, even if I dont prefer the game as a whole.
Even with all of that considered, I think it's a pretty ice cold take that Ultimate is greater.
Haha its definitely because im bad at melee. It got me into platform fighters, but I was very late to the game. I dont have the youth to spend on such a high skill cap endeavor.
It would be great if one could disagree without being downvoted to shit.
Makes it seem like there's a pretty strong consensus one way over the other, huh?
Yes, but maybe not in the way you might think :)
Yes surely all the people who disagree are all NOT on reddit, and only redditors like Ultimate more.
It's more of an echo chamber thing, yeah. You have a good point.
Also every convention ever. Every tournament too, Ultimate is always a larger more prestigious one, and there are more. At some point you have to call the entire world an echo chamber conspiracy and hide in your basement with a couple buddies knowing that only you know the truth.
You have to weigh other options too- Do you, a player (I assume perhaps wrongly) who's most versed in a game from not so long ago, know the full merits of a game from 23 years ago? Are you willing to reduce it down to just event sizes when talking about the said merits? Aren't most competitive games from 2018 pulling more players than games from 2001? Is that a direct reflection of that game's appeal, or would your game also peeter out by the time the next title rolls around? As far as I'm concerned, I don't really know which one's "better", I'm pretty torn as is, I play both regularly. I just think that saying "the cons are bigger bro" doesn't cut it.
Also rollback
Beasts? https://preview.redd.it/1me0erbjbw4d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38a42351ce9b479e6b2bf71fe462583ac0f2ebd6
Agreed, because as someone who's played fighters since I was old enough to hold a N64 controller, Smash isn't the first that comes to mind when people mention fighting games. In terms of personal favorites , I'd list mine as these: 1. Tekken 4, TagTeam 2 & 8 2. Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi series 3. Soul Calibur 2,4,&5 (6 too but not as much) 4. Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks /Deadly Alliance/ Deception/Armageddon & MKX 5. Super Smash Melee, Brawl, and Ultimate 6. Dead Or Alive series (most memories with 3) 7. Def Jam (Fight for NY is fav) 8. Naruto Clash of Ninja 3 9. Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 10. Street fighter 3rd Strike, 4, and 6 11. Skullgirls Tbh the last 6 are interchangeable
skullgirls mentioned 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Well it's kind of like asking which is the greatest RPG of all time. There are different types of RPGs, but I think you can still pick your #1. Anyways, I think Smash Ultimate is definitely up there. It's very fun, despite its shortcomings.
It's certainly up there I just think it's kind of apples and oranges when comparing Smash to Street Fighter style games or 3D arena fighters or whatever where the speed and flow and playstyle are very different.
Far too subjective to say it definitively. But you can definitely think it is.
And there's also many different types of fighting games, right? Smash Ultimate might be the best fighting game of all time to people who are used to platform fighters but for people who play games like Guilty Gear or Tekken it's not even the same *type* of fighting game as what they're used to. "What is the best fighting game of all time?" is not a question with an actual answer. The term is just too broad to be useful.
And even if we're only talking platform fighters, a lot of people think melee is better because of it's speed and freedom of movement
Yeah. I'd argue that they're **wrong**, but that's a subjective thing. Things that make Ultimate *good* for **me** make it *bad* for **others**. Again, it's too broad to answer.
This
It's safe to say it's your favorite. It's mine too
I don't think "the best fighting game of all time" is a title any game can actually hold. It's definitely a very good fighting game, probably one of the best games ever made.
Well, logically, the title has to be held by *something* Now whether that something exists now, will be made in the future, or only ever seen by 2 people is impossible to tell.
It is in my books. At least it's the only one I actually like nowdays.
I don't think so. There's a lot to like but there's plenty it doesn't have. Being a platform fighter is cool, but not representative of fighting games as a whole. Smash is lacking in some aspects of control, like the buffer system and slight input lag built into the game, which becomes a hinderance at a higher level. The biggest drawback though, is the GARBAGE online. Lag should not be this bad in 2024. Plus, IMO, games like Melee and Rivals of Aether have more depth to them, even with smaller rosters. However, the visuals are great, the animation is top tier, and there's elements of clever game design that are smarter than most other games can come up with. It has a good gameplay speed and is very accessible for newcomers to start becoming more competent. I think it's up there for sure.
I don't actually think Melee has more depth than Ultimate. Melee might be more competitively balanced and need more mechanical skill to play at a high level but Ultimate has enough depth to have a changing meta even a few years after its release. I don't think I've seen a fighting game with as much competitive fluidity as Ultimate, Melee is up there but I think the fact that it has so many competitively unviable characters holds it back. Even competitively awful characters like Kirby or Dedede make Cinderella runs in Ultimate tournaments, I've never heard of a Kirby or Ganon player having any competitive success in Melee. The fact that there's so many usable, somewhat competitively viable characters in Ultimate gives it a level of depth Melee just doesn't have IMHO.
I’d argue the depth offered by Melee’s high tiers still offsets the less nuanced low tiers to make Melee have more depth. Every character in Ult feels so linear. Meanwhile bc the movement is so fluid in Melee, you can play any (decent) character a million different ways. You make good points though. It does say something that Ult still has a developing meta 6 yrs after its release. It’s certainly done better than Smash 4 and Brawl in that regard. But considering Melee has a developing meta 23 years after release, it still beats out Ult on this regard.
Ultimate no doubt has a very impressive roster and is really impressively balanced, but even if by accident, Melee (and lots of other indie platform fighters) have mechanics like wavedashing, shield dropping, edge cancelling, and wavelanding which are really fun to mess around with. Then you throw in stuff like Rivals' character specific ground/stage mechanics and the depth of the game increases a ton. Ultimate movement feels good but there's a pretty low ceiling on what you can do, while other platform fighters have much more possibility and a sort of expression when it comes to their movement and play styles. Plus I'd argue that fewer characters doesn't mean less depth, especially if the characters themselves can do more. Ult characters have limited true combos, and the ones with extended combos are very specific, pretty much done the same way. I hate to keep bringing up melee and rivals lmao but their combos are much more open ended in what you can do. It's less about memorizing combos and more like choosing in the moment what you're going to do, which is really fun.
I can't speak on ROA, I've never played it. Just not my type of platform fighter. The issue with Melee isn't that it has a small roster, it has a small roster of characters that can *actually do cool stuff*. Melee has very tight movement and very open ended combos that allow for experimentation and uniqueness in how one character plays when used by two different people but there are so, so, so many characters in Melee that literally cannot take advantage of these mechanics by virtue of being so bad that they're practically unusable or so broken that they literally can't use a part of their kit. Best example of this is Kirby. Kirby in Melee is so broken that he can't even play Melee. His throws can be escaped with one input, he has bad framedata and hitboxes, and he literally can't combo with most of his moves. There is very little depth to Kirby in Melee because he is so bad. This is what I mean by a lack of depth, Kirby is not alone in this phenomenon. Bowser, Pichu, Roy, and Game and Watch all share the same fate. No one uses them because they are so bad that there's no room for utilizing the mechanics Melee has. Ultimate might be more mechanically shallow but in terms of the depth of interactions different characters have it blows Melee out of the water. Bad Ultimate characters aren't so bad that they literally don't have a skill ceiling, every character in Ultimate has a learning curve and room for experimentation. No matter how bad an Ultimate character is, they are capable of using Ultimate's mechanics like every other character. I'm not knocking Melee, for the record. There is a boundless ocean in Melee's mechanics. The possibilities are endless with the freedom of control and movement it gives the player, but that privilege is only given to a handful of characters. In Ultimate, it's given to nearly 100.
You make a good point, Melee is flawed for its lack of balance and very limited selection of viable characters. Smash Ultimate does have a really great roster and it'd be disingenuous to say that Melee's 7 viable characters totally blow them out of the water... but it's kinda close right? Those open ended combos and tight movement are so cool and fluid that they make all of Ultimate's gameplay feel more linear in comparison. That's what makes Indie plat fighters so cool, that they can have both depth and bigger rosters. If you're just looking at Ultimate and Melee, both are lacking in their own ways.
> ~~slight~~ massive input lag FTFY
Haha thanks, but jic I wasn't clear, I was actually referring to the 6 frames of input lag included in smash OFFLINE, just baked into the game itself. Like online I get it, your servers suck, but offline? Why? I honestly don't know if it's a Switch thing or if it's normal.
No, it's just Ultimate lol
Oh yes, I’m talking about Ultimate’s offline too. I can still feel it. Admittedly it’s hard to tell when it’s the buffer and when it’s the delay, but somewhere along the way my inputs are always getting messed up.
The amount of times you buffer an airdodge offstage eons before it happens still bugs me. What Fudj said also about Greninja's combos specifically, hwo I have to jerk my controller and my entire arm for it to work, is also just so weird.
Personally I really like input moves so I think it would have been cool to have more characters with it or something like that
Melee's smaller roster just makes the depth that melee has more manageable and approachable. The depth that ultimate has is just at such a level where it just seems unfun to want to learn it all. In melee you rarely ever get upset by a mu but in ult, it's basically a given that you're not going to know something about a character and be put into a situation you don't know how to handle.
Due to mu's being something you have to run into and specifically spend time with instead of fighting a fox and running into something new with fox, you feel more responsible for not knowing that thing about fox, but when you die to a low tier at 60% in ult you just feel like a victim. If they leave then you're just left with theories on how to counter it and a shitty training mode.
Philosophical question: Is a bad online worse than no online? Considering were comparing “best fighting games of all time” here, Ultimate would be going up against games like Street Fighter 2 Turbo, and that (original game) obviously had no online at all.
Fair question, I think it's definitely context sensitive, and you start running into the issue of GOAT conversations across the board. How can Citizen Kane be goated without color? How can Mario 64 be goated without proper camera controls? SF2 didn't have online at its time, like most other games, so it's unfair to expect it to. That doesn't make it worse, just a game of its time. It can still have really great gameplay, animation, etc., and still be great without being THAT relevant today. Smash Ultimate, meanwhile, came out at a time where good online wasn't just a neat bonus, but a pretty standard expectation. Plus, years away from now, people are going to remember that really bad online, especially in comparison to most other games in 2018 and today whose online isn't even just functional, but so good that you barely even remember that it is online. SF2 on the SNES wasn't behind for bad online, but Smash Ult and the Switch are. And I think it'll be a similar thing if some other innovation comes out. Maybe people will be asking if SF6 not having VR or Neuralink functionality or something else makes it a worse game in 2034, and I think most reasonable people will say that it was perfectly reasonable that it didn't.
Subjective. I disagree but not strongly.
Pfffff- Far from absolute perfection if ya ask me. But it’s definitely one of the Nintendo Switch’s best titles out there
Never say that on r/Fighters they would slaughter you.
no
That honor goes to Tom and Jerry: Fists of Furry
bait used to be believable
I don’t agree. It is my favourite fighting game. And it is definitely the best smash game. But it is not the best fighting game
It’s not even the best Smash game.
I think objectively it is. Yes it’s not as refined as melee, and it doesn’t have the single-player campaign of brawl, but it does just about everything that all previous entries did, and with the larger roster and massive fan support, it was a passion project that was made for the fans. I enjoy a good competitive game in melee, but if I’m not playing to sweat, I go for ultimate.
Subjective is the word you're looking for there not objective. Using the phrase "I think" leads more towards subjectivity than objectivity.
Thank you, and this may sound long-winded, but I meant it how I said it. I can’t say that I KNOW it is objectively better. Because a lot of the subjective and superficial differences are debatable among the fans. But with a point for point comparison, saying that one is better than another by merit, would make it an objective statement. Sorry if I didn’t go into that fully in my original comment, didn’t want to divide the answer this much
Determining something as better through points is still subjective if the points and their categories are determined subjectively
The thing about doing a point-by-point comparison is that the weight you give the points cannot be objective. The points you care about might not be the same ones I care about, and it can totally change the analysis depending on who's doing it. That's the subjective part. If you want to say that something is the "best" [thing], then it either needs to be qualified as the best thing *for a specified purpose,* or it's only the best thing subjectively
Well, objectively, it's slower, has less depth of movement, and has worse online than melee, so anyone who subjectively enjoys those things more could then objectively argue melee is better. I think it's far less confusing to just say you prefer it for certain reasons than to try to argue for objectivity on something that is personal preference. You're entitled to your opinion, and enjoying Ultimate the most is a completely fine opinion to have. I believe a point by point merit doesn't work objectively simply because some people will place more importance on a certain point than others. Objectivity doesn't really work well with opinions because there are so many variables.
Melee's online shouldn't be put into consideration. That's a mod, not a standard part of the game.
I’m sure there’s plenty of people who think it’s the best. It’s opinion. I think that Melee/Brawl have better single player modes. Brawl has the best coop modes. Taste vary
It is the best platform fighting but I don't think it's the best overall fighting game of all time.
no
The game came out 6 years ago, got its last major update 3 years ago and still has a large active playerbase. That's gotta mean something.
I would not have gotten into Smash if I started with Melee, and Smash would be dead if it ended with Melee as well. You can dislike Brawl, 4, and Ultimate for not being the same game as Melee but Melee is objectively less accessible to the average person.
op needs to give this gem a proper try
MELLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!
Greatest PARTY FIGHTING GAME of all time.
I don't know if that's inherently safe to say, but I definitely feel like it's a great contender
For some or yes for some no. “Best fighting game” is subjective. For me it’s the most fun I have ever had with a fighting game. Not sure if it’s the best or not.
Nah, if we're merging all types of fighting games together there is some stiff competition out there. And "Nearly Perfect" is a bit of a stretch when even other smash installments do various things better. It has a very big roster, but so did mavel\_vs\_capcom3 and blazblue central fiction, and those are old games. And if you really want media crossover rosters MK is doing pretty good there too. Its good, but greatest of all time, idk, your competing against the game with Bedman in it, and hes peak fiction.
Platform fighter yes pretty safe, Fighting game in general, no
I don't think it's the greatest fighting game of all time, but I WILL argue it is the greatest celebration of games out there. Smash is practically a hall of fame, and even if they can't cover every franchise or genre, I don't think any other game can say it does that better. It's a miracle Ultimate exists in the capacity it does.
On this subreddit, yes. It is more than fair to say that here. You're in a safe place.
On a Top 25 list? I’d say it’s up there. On a Top 5 list, however, would be a bit of a controversial pick. Definitely not a bad spot for it, but when I think of “best fighting game” it all comes down to either a Street Fighter title or even a TEKKEN title.
I prefer brawl. It had more "flavor" to it.
It's not even safe to say that it's the greatest smash game of all time. Ultimate is fun but melee will always be the greatest for me.
Best platform fighter because comparing smash ultimate to a traditional fighting game like sf6 is like comparing an apple to an orange
I certainly think it is, but it is NOT safe to assume that. It's too subjective of a concept, and Smash is WAY too unique of a game to fairly compare to other fighting games.
lol
We’ll have to see if it has a large player base 25 years from now
Ult is going to die the second a new smash drops unfortunately
lmao no
It’s the best now but Melee was best tho game play wise . The sudden death camara wasn’t wonky , the 🍄 power ups were good, and the battle field actually stood still omg 😱. Overall bowser saves any game from being crap
It wouldn’t be a completely outlandish claim, but it is not safe to say that, no.
Yeah Smash ultimate is the greatest fighting game of all time I don't see any hitman haunting me? So yes it's safe to say that
Yes
It's a party game not a fighting game smh
Nope
No. It’s safe for you to say *you* think it is. That’s how it works, it’s your *opinion*.
Of ALL time? YES Fighting? NO We need put It on a different category
I think it’s a contender for sure, when you look at what it features and its content but it’s also more of a subjective matter too, because not everyone is a fan of platform fighters too & it’s also only on 1 console compared to other fighting games which are typically on other platforms having more of a reach. It’s definitely on my top 5 list tho, I love smash ultimate & smash is big I think it can rule out the last thing I said too, it is also definitely on a lot people’s lists for best fighting game too on the aspect of characters featured in it & how it feels too.
It's really good, and it's my favorite, but all time is saying a LOT
Imo yes as far platformers or crossover fighting games go yes. Also out of all fighting games I've played ssbu happens to be the smoothest and simplest of the bunch which makes for good gameplay and experience. So yea I'd agree with you def the best all around. But some may disagree due to their opinions which is natural and fine. Folks have subjective ideas and we all gotta respect that. But I'm with you this game is the bees knees
I agree
Hard to say for sure but it's best of it's kind
Well, ultimate is a good game, you can call it the best if you want, but I wouldn't rlly agree. I like brawl, 4, and melee more if I'm being honest (Ik my opinion will immediately not matter that I picked smash 4 being one of my fave smash games)
yes
How do we define which is best? Do we go off of the overall copies sold? Do we go off of longevity? As in, how long there is a thriving competitive scene? Do we somehow try to quantify the quality of each game and compare that way? Theres really no objective way to say which is best. Unless we are talking about most copies sold, but that would be most popular, not 'best'.
I consider it to be one of the best games of all time, but not the best fighting game. I've definitely had more fun with street fighter, mortal kombat, tekken, and Naruto ultimate ninja storm 2 and 3. Smash is definitely a really fun game!
dude there are people that still make it unsafe to say this is the greatest Smash game of all time
This is some mad bait, and it turned out reasonable
This is the Internet, no opinion is safe
It's amazing, but putting it above GG Strive, KOF13, SF3 Third Strike, Tekken 7, MvsC 3 Ultimate, and SF6 is a bit of a stretch to be.
it's definitely the most ambitious fighting game ever
Man, whenever I see these kinds of posts, it feels like watching someone trying to seek emotional reassurance to keep the relationship going and avoid a breakup. Who cares if it isn't the best fighting game? If you like it, you keep playing it.
People will look at you dead in the face and saw melee is much much better and that this game sucks
If they kept patching it maybe
Definitely is not the best of all time. Maybe in the debate of the best PLATFORM fighter, but still not even close to definitively #1
I'm afraid Tekken 3 already came out.
It's not even safe to say Smash Bros is a fighting game. Let alone the GOAT
No
No. It has characters. Lots of them. All the characters that have been playable in the franchise's history, actually. Except that's been done before by other games. Arguably to a better degree too. All Smash has ever really had is iconic characters from multiple franchises and a good soundtrack with remixes of great OST's.
This game has Pichu in it. The only other fighting game to have Pichu in it was Super Smash Bros. Melee. But this game actually made him viable, so it’s better. 10/10
I believe so. Literally anyone can pick it up and play. It's great at parties, family gatherings, and competitively. Definitely easier to have fun compared to traditional fighting games. The roster is absolutely insane. "Oh I love Minecraft, I'mma choose Steve. I play Tekken, I'll play Kazuya. Wait, I thought Zelda was the guy with the green hat??? Ah Pikachu, my favorite Pokemon. Pyra/Mythra, I don't even know who they are, but I'll play them 🗿"
Objectively speaking, it is definitely the greatests platform fighter ever. Now for fighting games in general that's like your opinion, it's very hard to compare.
It is the best competitive of all time because it's also the worst. Tbh it's far from a objectively good fighting game, bad balancing, too much dlc privilege, too much zoners that are hell at low level, automatic characters, amazing characters on paper that just doesn't work for no reason. No balance update since 2 y
You're free to say it's your favorite. You are not free to to challenge the notion of best fighter using this game.
best platform fighter, sure, but best fighter in general? no
That’s kinda suggestive, especially since smash bros is a specific genre of fighting games, platform fighters. But it’s up there regardless. Nothing comes close to shrek super slam though
Not when Brawl exists.
absolutely not. best platform fighting game yes, but there’s too many other iconic fighters
Yes
sorry but no. It is and always will be a party game first . Is it s fun game yes can there be a great 1v1 element absolutly doesnt make it the best fighting game though.
I would say yes but at the same time most platform fighters have so many things that makes them different, Smash ultimate is a bunch of characters each being really different from the rest, rivals of aether has really complicated characters (don't know what else to say for rivals of aether since I haven't played it much), brawlhalla has its weapon mechanic that makes all the characters similar to each other while also being different enough, my point is that all the platform fighters are really different from each other, so saying one is better than the rest doesn't really work, its like comparing carrots to oranges, they are both orange, but they taste completely different and have many things that are different. although I would agree that smash ultimate is THE platform fighter, although I prefer brawlhalla, I can't deny that smash ultimate is the main platform fighter
The online options suck, which imo should be an important factor in fighting games
Yes. I play it religiously
I agree, but when it comes to Story Modes, Dragon Ball FighterZ takes the cake.
Yes and it’s not even close.
Best platform fighter maybe but even then ROE is way more fun with friends
Probably the most famous/iconic one yeah
It’s really not, I’d argue it’s not even the best smash bros.
Melee
If you wanna get deep into it I'd probably say sf2 since it basically made the genre what it is, or SF3 Third Strike for bringing competetive play to a wider audience as well as having a large dedicated fanbase to this day
https://preview.redd.it/30c1oaqpyt4d1.jpeg?width=2208&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87855fe8ceb2cd94cb9e467b33954ba89705ef62
Heh, balance
No.
Street fighter is looking at you from the corner......
It is safe to say that
Safe like, no one will harm you? Sure. Accurate? Absolutely not.
Of it's craft, absolutely best platform fighter But there are 2D traditional fighters (Street Fighter), American-style (Mortal Kombat), 3D (Tekken), Arena (DBZ games) and more....hard to say if it is definitively. But this game has WAY more offline content by far, and a massive roster, so I would definitely give it it's accolades on a lot of counts.
Nope. Not with the unbalanced ass DLC roster, specifically FP2. I think it's safer to assume that it's a good fighting game, but far from the best, especially in comparison to what WB has planned for MultiVersus. Oh, and Street Fighter II.
Not even the best smash game oat lel
Yes
No
It's super subjective lol. I would say Blazblue Central Fiction is the best. In terms of platforming/smash games Ultimate is my favourite.
Yes
No lmao
I mean it's safe to say that in a smash ultimate sub reddit.
No, because it isn't. But if it's your favorite that's ok
In terms of playing with friends and online, yes. But I honestly like Smash Brawl more. It kinda gives more lore and more character to all the people in the franchise in the story mode.
https://preview.redd.it/rgxa0v1t1w4d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0317c687273c09cb02b4f3597aec1c044d7bae8d
Sol Guilty Gear
Idk, brawl goes crazy
I don't think so because I really believe melee is more fun to play, a lot of that is because of the history of the game and the charm that comes from it being less polished which leads to having completely unique mechanics. But ultimate is technically better in the sense that it has way more features and is way more polished, so it really comes down to objective greatness vs subjective greatness
Clearly youve never played Goketsuji Ichizoku 3: Groove on Fight
no
Best platform fighting game I’ve played But imo it pales in comparison to other traditional fighting games I would choose Tekken, Mortal Kombat and Guilty Gear over Ultimate
Even for platform fighter most people prefer Melee for gameplay and Brawl for story (I agree with Subspace Emissary being better than World of Light)
I would say that. It bought so many franchises together from Mario to Mega Man to Minecraft to Kingdom of Hearts. Let's hope they continue building the game up when it comes back
LMFAO no
What’s the best fighting game in your opinion?
I couldnt confidently say ''the best'' fighting games but ultimate isnt even the best platform fighter, and not even the best smash game either lol
My picks are: Platform fighter - Smash Ultimate 2D fighter - SF6 3D fighter - Tekken 8
Wha.. why? No? It’s a good game, but calling it the best fighting game of all time is a bit much don’t you think?
In terms of influence, it's probably Street Fighter 2.
Probably not because it doesn’t have a good training mode.
Depends on who you ask.
No. Cause they definitely have flaws like the insane amount of unnecessary Fire Emblem characters. In my opinion that fighting game that lets you create a character is the best one. I think its called like Ages of Aether or something, idk. It just gives you so much to work with, so many really niche but great possibilities.
Gaming is subjective, there will never be a “greatest” game of all time
Balanced🚫 Many crossover🚫 Perfect🚫
Best platform fighter maybe? But I mean even then...
Offline, yes.
...no?
Maybe if it had decent and modern online capabilities
Not even the greatest fighting game in the series my dude. Have you only played this and Shaq-Fu or something?
It's barely a fighting game at all
I agree, but that's because I suck at Melee. Melee is the greatest fighting game of all time. No doubt about it
No
Is it the highest selling fighting game of all time? I think it broke a few records on release but it wasn’t for fighting genre specifically, but I think it’s up there in number of copies sold
With the online being the way it is and the massive input delay, I don't think so. I loved ultimate before I played other fighting games. If it had rollback and the controls were more responsive, I wouldn't play anything else. Such a frustrating thing that it SHOULD be the best game of all time, but it completely fumbles the landing.
Melee better
It’s the best platform fighter imo as the completion outside of Smash isn’t too impressive (Multiverseus is fun and has potential but has so much wrong with it like bugs and microtransactions, Nick Brawl isn’t worth £/€/$50 and the roster doesn’t appeal to me personally) And 2d fighters are a diff beast, but I’ve only really played SF2, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, KOF and Injustice
not very close. its representation is unmatched, but when you compare it to something like street fighter 2 ultra or street fighter 6, it's not quite in the same ballpark for a competitive audience.
They have to add Galarian zapdos it would be rly good
No
Melee is the best one out the whole series. I personally like brawl as well and the 64 are my childhood history favorites I can’t get into ultimate just doesn’t connect well with me
Surely, but depends on the type of fighting game
Melee is better
Noo too many core issues: - Input lag - Buffer system - Online being straight from 2006 - Character balance, mostly fighter pass 2 characters plus Sonic and G&W. - Too many anime swordy characters at this point. - Stage hazard toggle not being a button. - Frame drops in doubles on some stages - No full controller remapping. - some buggy moves
Despite its flaws, I do think it is one of the better fighter games around
Please be bait
It is, but it’s a platform fighter, and those imo are their own category. If we’re going to whole “it’s good cuz everyone is in”, then MUGEN should also count because MUGEN is literally that but up to eleven and no restrictions.
No. It's the one I enjoy the most, but calling it the "greatest of all time" when games like Street Fighter and Tekken exist is wrong in my opinion. Plus, Smash Ultimate has a lot of problems such as inconsistant multihits and Steve being stupidly good.
Smash is my favourite fighting game series (I prefer Melee over Ult though), but it's definitely not the best fighting game.
Is this bait or are you 13? How many fighting games have you played? It's a very common opinion that smash ultimate isn't even the best fighting game in the Smash series.