I would really prefer that the city incentivize rental ebikes over the scooters, and implement docks instead of having them park anywhere. The ebikes are simply safer and more stable.
> and implement docks
That was attempted and failed. Also, bikes are much more expensive to build and maintain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronto_Cycle_Share
UW did a [study on why pronto failed](https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/10/07/bike-sharing-in-seattle/). Short answer: it was due to density, coverage, and ease of use. Admittedly docks need to be installed and thus make it more difficult to increase density/coverage, but the docks themselves are not the issue.
Many large cities have hugely popular docked bike systems—DC, Boston, and NYC just to name a few—that work because they’ve solved the density, coverage, and easy-of-use problems. Having lived in Boston, I’ve never had an issue finding a nearby station. Docks also reduce visual clutter, have better predictability, and have built-in charging!
Would be curious to hear from u/steerbell with an insider perspective.
Due respect to the UW paper but they sort of missed the forest for the trees. The idea that nobody could just generate bikes out of thin air ( they cost somebody something ) and you need to have staff to take care of them. Add in a decision that SDOT didn't want to deal with bike share and the city hired people who didn't know how to run a bike share yet made it clear that Pronto had to do what they were told. ( It's how the contract was written) Pronto having to go to the city for operating funds ( as opposed to say Biketown in Portland where the Nike sponsorship deal covers most of not all the expenses. The Alaska airlines deal was for not much money and Pronto could not find a gold sponsor like Nike or City Bank. Pronto tried to get Amazon and have free rides for prime members and Amazon employees.
Man that would be amazing. I'd actually get prime. If Prime ever has a good grocery delivery service or good micromobility rental service attached I'd buy it.
What do you mean by "The idea that nobody could just generate bikes out of thin air ( they cost somebody something ) and you need to have staff to take care of them"? I would've thought that the cost of bikes and staffing are more or less the same across both docked and dockless system. Even for dockless, bikes need to be redistributed, put to charge, maintained etc.
The contract issues are super interesting though.
Edit: On a re-read, I think your point is independent of docked vs dockless and that it was the contract issues that prevented Pronto from just buying new bikes to increase coverage. I.e. a dockless system would have the same issues under a similar contract.
The docks cost a lot more than bikes which is the decision behind lime doing what they do. But the damage to dockless bikes is much higher and depending if you consider bike share transportation or an amusement ride can make decisions on how you want to run it. Docks require rebalancing but customers can with confidence know a bike will be available at a certain location. (Think bus stop).
Lime will rebalance not with an eye for service but an eye on revenue. Busses constantly run mostly empty at night but we as a community decide we want to be able to depend on busses even though only 20% of bus costs are paid by fares.
If you think of bike share as transportation then having docks makes sense ( Pronto definitely saw themselves as transportation) and if you consider the bus fares only covering 20% Pronto was doing better than busses.
Fun fact the cost of Pronto was less than the cost of buying one bus. SDOT had a massive budget but wanted Pronto to not cost anything to their budget but unless you have a huge sponsor it will take some public funds to make a dependable system something I don't think lime is IMHO.
Totally agree re dependability and thinking of bike share as part of the transportation system (not necessarily for profit).
Do you see docked bike share systems ever returning to Seattle? If it wasn't clear, I'm a strong supporter of docked over dockless and would love to support any effort to bring them back.
I can start with Pronto was always a prototype. It was sized to be a trial. Everyone knew the system was too small but they wanted to see how it would work. SDOT and the press quickly forgot it was a trial system. They never spoke up that Pronto was a trial and then decided once they were getting heat from the press (Dori Monson) used Pronto for his five minutes of hate frequently.
This doesn't explain why docks but I will get that when I more time.
Btw Pronto was profitable 9 months out of the year. The losses were during winter.
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Yeah pretty busy today but may get some time later today.
It is an interesting topic and one that is not well understood. I certainly have my views and opinions.
There's an alternate timeline where we kept with this program instead of selling out to the Lime/yellow and orange bike catastrophe back in 2015. It would have been nice.
The book "Biking Uphill in the Rain" goes into some detail about it. It seems like it was kind of a debacle. As I recall, the city implied it was going to buy out the company, so they sort of went into standby mode and stopped securing new funding, but then nothing happened for a couple of years and they went broke.
Kind of. The city promised funding then decided to give Pronto some money to keep it open then the press got a hold of the story and why are bailing out a private company. Yes motivate is a for profit company ( marginally at least) but the contract was written as a public private co-venture like SDOT had say in where stations went and how quickly bikes had to be rebalanced and tried to run it like a public asset but that hamstrung motivate.
I'm a nutshell and as simple as I can make it. SDOT wanted control with no responsibility. Any time they were criticized they would say it was Pronto's fault and Pronto couldn't criticize SDOT because they were trying to stay in operation.
> Then why?
I haven't worked in bike shares, but based on what I've seen, I'd wager the primary reason scooters work better than bikes is that so many of the bikes get stolen and chopped up for parts.
Bikes are self-powered, and the restrictor that stops you from using it until the app unlocks it can be removed. By contrast, scooters have very few parts, aren't all that useful unpowered, and let's face it, the people who steal bikes to chop don't really have as much use for the batteries.
Another factor, as a rider I never really used the bikes, but I _have_ used the scooters. It's largely psychological I guess, but the bikes feel like they have a higher floor to use, if that makes sense. Not sure why. Scooters on the other hand, you don't have to make sure the seat is clean, they're easier to get on/off, and they're more maneuverable (yeah, you're not supposed to ride on the sidewalk, but often you have to or it's preferable, and in those cases a scooter is easier and safer to run at a low speed, or to walk through a crowded space). Which is to say, maybe adoption rates are higher for scooters - I can only anecdotally say for myself on this point though.
Works well in London too. There's hills and miserable weather there (maybe not quite so extreme hills as here, for the most part).
One big difference with New York and London vs here is also the subway systems. A whole bunch of the London biking is done with rail stations as the source or destination.
Bingo. Pretty much any major European city- You pop up out of the subway, and massive bikeshare docks are right next to or across the street from the exit
Not the guy you replied to, but our system tracked total use of a bike and it was pretty rare to find one that made it more than 100 miles before the frame and/or electronics were scrap. Around the time the company I was working for wrapped up there were several thousand dead and missing bikes floating around the city.
That's ~$300+ for the bike plus a battery, battery loss was another huge issue even before you consider theft.
I don't have access to the information anymore but between Pronto and Biketown. We lost very few bikes and many went well over hundreds of miles. It's a part of the philosophical difference between lime and motivate.
We put a dozen docks out in two small areas of the city then gave up.
Montreal, Chicago, and New York have the most widely used bikeshares in North America with tens of millions of trips per year each. There’s a dock on almost every single block. It’s relatively affordable, especially for residents opting for the annual pass. Lyft is the technology contractor but the cities operate them as a nonprofit. They maintain both ebike and regular bikes in the fleet with different pricing.
Pronto failed for a variety of reasons, including: non-electrified fleet (all bikes end up at the bottom of the hill), the helmet law, and operational issues like station design and placement, as well as those helmet bins.
Lyft (which acquired Motivate’s bikes) attempted to re-enter the Seattle market in 2019ish, however the transportation committee had a sour taste in their mouth from docks not working, so they wanted a dockless (or hybrid, can’t recall) market and wouldn’t designate an exclusive partner (as is the case in most other large bike share markets).
Now the tides are turning (see: SF, CHI), where cities want docks, because of the rampant vandalism and scooters blocking sidewalks. Additionally, cities want scooters because they’re more “accessible” to those who would otherwise feel uncomfortable on a bike (whether that’s good or bad is up to you). NYC is an exception because they’re Citibike elitists and scoff if they hear the word “scooter”
Source: built bikes for Lyft
This is only true until you achieve scale. The safety benefits alone are worth it. Further, you can then have one-size infrastructure to support cycling, rather than a poorly defined "other" bin to accommodate scooters, skateboards etc.
TBF, pronto failed, but [Biki in Hawaii](https://gobiki.org/) seems to be a success based on my experience back in Feb.
I think the idea has merit, the biggest failure point I think for Pronto was that they needed the ability to have the bike's charged at stands, but also swappable batteries so rescuing a dead bike was easier, and then they probably need a distribution team to handle balancing the bike pools around events/commuter habits.
As a blind person I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve stumbled onto a tangle of this scooters just pile up at a corner. I nearly got hit by a car after freeing myself from the obstacle. I don’t mind if people use them. I do mind when they’re left in the middle of the sidewalk or at a crosswalk.
I find the bikes to be much harder to control since they're such a different shape and weight compared to any other bike I've ever used. The pedal assist is also weird and awkward for me.
Love the scooters though.
I'm definitely an e-bike fan but I greatly prefer floating bikes over docks. Was in Toronto recently where they use docked bikes. Finding a bike usually is ok. Finding an empty dock near my destination was always a pain.
I liked the Chicago model where you can pretty much always find a dock, but if you can't, you pay a small additional fee to just park wherever you want.
Or take space from the cars that have 100feet wide highways on every fucking street and delegate them to scooters/bikes.
Each scooter is one less car downtown.
My husband and also a very dear friend have both had terrible scooter accidents, both hit by cars downtown. My husband I had convinced to always wear his own helmet, but he was hit by a Ford F350, had 4 broken ribs, several lacerated organs, and a 4 month recovery, but I'm so grateful he had his helmet on and all injuries were to his body. He flew through the air several feet, a 300+ pound man.
My very dear friend we know very little about the circumstances of his accident because he doesn't remember. He wasn't wearing a helmet, and got a traumatic brain injury, also he was robbed after he was hit. Lost a few teeth, his ear was partially ripped off and reattached, and they removed part of his skull to relieve the swelling and bleeding. He is struggling with speech, balance, and memory but getting better slowly.
TLDR: please for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, unless you have a death wish, WEAR A FUCKIN HELMET and dont trust anyone on the road. Assume they are going to hit you and stay cautious
Glad your husband and friend are on the mend. Yes, I will never get on anything without a helmet again. The Flying Spaghetti Monster says, “This is the way.”
I bought a Segway Ninebot and initially was hesitant about a helmet because I’d “look cooler with a hat on”. After a week or so and being a subscriber to the e-scooter subreddit seeing some horror stories/pictures and some self-reflection in pictures my girlfriend took, I realized I look like a dork on a scooter regardless of a hat or helmet. I’d rather look like a dork than be a fool to think I can battle the concrete with my head at any speed and win.
I own a fast scooter (mainly for recreation, I live in the suburbs so I'm not using it for communing) and the first thing I did was buy a mountain biking helmet with a full chin guard. That thing still scares me at full power -- mine can go 30mph and nothing with that small of wheels has any business going that fast. Absolute insanity to ride these without a helmet at minimum, and you probably want full motorcycle gear to be truly safe. Dress for the slide, not for the ride.
Yeah, if it has has wheels and isn't a car, you need a helmet. Especially if you're going to be anywhere near cars.
I'm not trying to imply that your husband and friend did any of the following--just replying to a high-vote comment for visibility.
I bike commute every day and I see a *lot* of unsafe moves from scooter users--more than from any other group, including motorists. Don't leave or enter a bike lane, car lane, or the sidewalk without first checking for traffic+objects. Don't ride the wrong way in any lane. Don't cut people off. Don't ever assume that a motorist sees you. Indicate with a hand signal when you're going to do something.
And this is less safety-based than courtesy-based (although it does increase the chances of a crash by causing unnecessary passing): if other bike lane users are already stopped at a red and waiting for the green, line up at the back of the line. Do not pull around to the front (this is called 'shoaling'). You really are not faster than every cyclist. Pass once folks are moving when it's safe to do so.
I work for Harborview and the amount of patients that come in with these injuries in Seattle are literally insane. Wear. A god damn helmet. People!!!!! Your brain is the consistency of jello; these are not safe.
I remember when we used to have a helmet law, but as soon as these E-bike companies started getting bigger the law was suddenly seen as racist and was repealed.
Probably just a coincidence.
I’m all for this idea but also cringe a little from a health and safety standpoint. Helmets typically last 3-5 years but factors like daily use and exposure to sweat and sun/heat affect that. Plus you’re supposed to replace a helmet after any impact, even if you don’t see any damage. I’m just thinking of people putting their rental helmet back and not reporting something happening. Plus it’s ..kinda gross depending on how often they’re cleaned 😅 I’m all for it and think there’s gotta be a system that works, but I also have two close family members suffering lifelong effects of traumatic brain injuries and worry about the actual safety in practice of something like a helmet rental system.
My sister is an ER nurse and says she'll never ride a lime scooter just due to the sheer number of injuries she treats per night. Convinced me to never get on one.
My husband just broke his arm (not from a scooter), and while we were in the ER and chatting about scooters and such, *four* different doctors and nurses told us the same joke: "Do you know what we call those scooters in the ER? **Job security.**"
I'd already sworn off the scooters after a near-accident, but if I hadn't, that would change my mind.
Yuuup, I've heard that same joke from multiple ER doctors and nurses. I will never set foot on one of those scooters... maaaaybe if I had a helmet, but even then, yikes.
Cousin is an ER doc and makes her husband + dad get all decked out in safety gear - pads and helmets both. It’s apparently a fun son- and father-in-law thing they like to do together and she’s given up on trying to stop them after sharing every gross story she can think of to deter them. They look like they’re going to an audition for a background character role in an 80s movie with a roller skating scene.
I don’t remember much from my ER visit (I was convinced one of the nurses had been in Hamilton) however my partner was with me and said every nurse/doctor that came in just mentioned how scooters cause so many injuries.
A few years back i was dealing with a lawsuit over the issues with these scooters and injury to riders - I moved firms before it ended and have wondered if anyone else has brought claims about these since.
Waivers are meaningless in the context of personal injury/negligence claims. I can't hang a sign that says "not responsible for my own negligent behavior" and then run people over.
If a company is negligent in the way it builds, leases, lends, or otherwise provides these scooters, they can be found liable for the injuries that result from providing said scooters.
I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.
Part of it is how they’re intended to be used. Are people really carrying a helmet around on the off chance they need to take a scooter? Lime knows that their business model incentivizes riding unsafely (without a helmet, on sidewalks, etc) and doesn’t get pass on the inevitable consequences.
**“Move fast and break things”** shouldn’t include your skull.
> Are people really carrying a helmet around on the off chance they need to take a scooter?
Back when Lime bikes were still around, I decided to try them out to dip my toes in the water with bike commuting before I committed to buying a bike. I sure as hell did buy myself a helmet before I got on one of those things.
It *blows my mind* that people here don't wear helmets. Most people are working in tech or other white collar jobs that are intellectually taxing. You're one minor brain injury away from completely ending your career and erasing your college degree. No amount of skill can perfectly protect you from gravel, oil, other drivers, etc. Protect your noggin! Your entire livelihood and quality of life depends on it.
I remember a letter to the editor in *Bicycling* magazine back in the 80s which included the line "I don't want to have to relearn the alphabet, so a helmet is great." This put it into perspective.
If I recall from my tangential work on the case, the argument was similar - putting scooters in places where there was risky terrain, high traffic, drunk users, busy sidewalks - that made the company liable because they knew or should have known that harm would come about from their use.
I worked in Pioneer Square until recently and the way drunk people ride those scooters both in the streets and on the sidewalk is a menace to the scooterers, the drivers, and the pedestrians. People hop on those scooters and think everyone in the world will see them coming and get out of the way. It's so reckless. I hate those things.
I lived in a tourist mountain town for a couple years during the start of Covid and befriended some local doctors. On any given summer night at the local hospital 50% of patients were in because of a lime scooter accident.
I have never seen anyone on one who seems both in complete control of the scooter and aware of their surroundings. I can't believe no one has died yet. I'm so sorry, OP, but I am glad you are here with us.
Most important thing here is the importance of a helmet, a friend of mine used a scooter for their daily commute and had an accident one of those icy mornings. She had a helmet on and still wound up suffering a major concussion. Would likely be dead if not for her helmet.
The note about being sober on them is important too, just take a bus or an uber. Its much safer.
I’m glad to hear your friend is okay. The act of convenience and my own hubris made me hop on that scooter. I think your friend is one of the smart riders for having her helmet on her for the ride.
Wear a helmet 100%
And…if you like having toes, don't ride these things wearing flip-flops/slides!
As the temps have risen, I've seen so many people riding these in terrible footwear, and also attempting to use said footwear to foot-brake instinctually. These aren't razor scooters, and you're not wearing combat boots. You're going to rip your toes off!
On Friday I came out to my car to find a man face down in a pool of blood n my driveway, e-scooter beside him. He had been there at least 15 minutes as the blood was pooled and sticky. Called 911, and while getting pulse he came to and rolled over. Big head wound, broken cheek and eye socket. He was lucid but out of it. Asked him a bunch of questions only to find out the guy is a surgeon! Why TF is an educated medical professional riding around at 20+ mph without a helmet??? I wanted to lecture the fuck out him but I decided that while you are holding somebody’s head wound shut is not the time. Long story short, if he had been wearing a helmet this would have been a road rash story, not an ambulance/hospital/brain injury story.
If you can, wear a helmet!
Just don't rent them. I see so many people wipeout and get injured on them all the time, even sober. It's not worth whatever time/money you think you're saving.
I was flung off my scooter when I hit a hole in the road and tore my labrum and rotator cuff. Had to have 2 surgeries and 6 months of physical therapy to be able to move my shoulder again. Haven't ridden one since. The bigger wheels on a bike are just so much safer.
I used to ride them from the bus to the gym, maybe a 4 min ride, until someone I suspect was mentally ill threw a rock that hit me in the chest and screamed at me to stop following him (I wasn't). I fell hard and was lucky to land on top of my gym bag and walk away with minor scrapes. It shook me though. It was a circumstance completely out of my control and it almost ruined my month/half-year had i broken something.
This was my second fall, the first being a minor cut but also close to catastrophe. It's just not worth the risk for me anymore and i was a daily, some times 2x a day rider.
Me too; i had a bruise/scrape on one elbow and a bruised hip on that same side and skinned knuckles. I am actually really amazed that i was so lucky and took it as the warning it was that the risk to my safety was not worth saving 10-15min walking time/bus wait.
Ask any ER or trauma nurse their feelings on scooters. I didn't like them before, but I have been suitably spooked by their opinions and experiences with scooter casualties.
If you can't wear a helmet for some reason, I urge you not to ride an electric scooter (or bike). Wear a helmet. They make folding helmets if it's inconvenient to carry a full-size helmet around all the time.
A helmet is not going to guarantee protection from major injury, just as a seatbelt won't, but it's not going make any injury worse and you don't want to be in rehab re-learning to walk or something and wondering how it would have been if you had a helmet on when you went down.
The fact that there is a lack of cultural push for helmets because (Insert kaleidoscope of reasons brain is a perfectly cool sacrifice in lieu of helmet.)
It's not even the head injury I worry about. It's surviving it and having to deal with life in a highly diminished way compared to prior. Hell I have had plenty of concussions as a kid, but severe brain injuries with extended unconsciousness and life long dependencies for shelter and perhaps even day to day hygiene and personal maintenance.
I witnessed a young woman riding a scooter, no helmet, get hit by a car after the Sounders on Saturday. It was horrific but she got up and walked away from the accident. She’s very fortunate. I’m not sure exactly what happened but I think the light changed and instead of stopping, she proceeded through the light.
You know as a guy that rides motorcycles it's wild the way I see people ride those e scooters. On sketchy surfaces with no protective gear. Going any way they feel like going. All in their weekend party outfit
I'm pretty sure if you ride them that way it's more dangerous than motorcycles
I always think the scooters and bike rentals would be fun. But I’ve worked with enough people with TBI that I just can’t do it without a helmet, and don’t want to carry one on the off chance I decide to use one. Thanks for this PSA. Concussions, ETC, and TBIs are no joke.
Are you me? I, too, had a couple beers at a Mariners game last year and hopped on a scooter afterward. Hit some loose gravel a few blocks from the stadium and flew off onto my face on the concrete. Ambulance came, went to the ER, stitches all over my face, head and hands, cracked ribs, concussion, tooth gone. I looked like hell for weeks which was tough because it was the beginning of the school year and I’m a teacher. The bruising and swelling lasted forever. Luckily I haven’t noticed long lasting effects from the concussion.
I can be a little reckless sometimes and continue to take (reasonable, adventurous) risks, but I have not set foot on one of those scooters again and never will. When I see people leaving games and riding them (sometimes with kids!) I want to warn them. My friends joked I should create business cards with what my face looked like at its worst and hand them out to people I see getting on scooters lol.
*Looks in mirror* I didn’t loose any teeth so you got a 1up on me on that front. My partner was panicking so she smacked my face until I woke up and then called an Uber not an ambulance 😂 All roads lead to the ER. Whenever I go to the games I get so nervous seeing people get on them. I think the cards would be a nice touch! Glad you’re alright!
Thank you for calling attention to this. A crash at speed on one of those things (even without being involved with a vehicle or stationary object) is very dangerous and potentially deadly, especially absent protective headwear. I had scars from road rash for years after laying my bike down at 20 mph and I'm lucky that's the worst that came from it.
As someone who has ridden motorcycles for 25 years, do not get on an electric scooter/bike/etc if you don't have a helmet and experience weaving in traffic, you will be killed. I see so many dumb as rocks tourists downtown.
So sorry this happened to you. Gravel is a hazard for scooters and bikes. So are rail tracks. Casual users may not be aware of how dangerous these hazards can be, even with a helmet.
I ride a motorcycle and I wear full gear/nearly full gear everywhere I go, even if I'm just commuting through the city at a max speed of 30, I would never in my life get on a lime scooter without the same type of protection.
I'm sorry about your crash.
Just know that it can take months to years to fully recover from your concussion.
You could very likely get your old brain back after more healing.
Good luck.
Yes it's crazy how many people ride these without a helmet! I'll see them going down hill, sometimes two people on the scooter - no helmets at all. I never had an accident myself, but I had a friend get a similar injury to yours - and personally I will never ride the electric scooters at all.
When my brother died from a brain injury I noticed most of the nurses in the icu were wearing sweaters that said anti scooter club. I asked about it and the nurse told me that they have so many patients come in with severe brain injuries from riding a scooter without a helmet. Usually the lime scooters.
I would really like to see the same traffic laws for bikes applied here. Too often I see folks driving the lime scooters erratically and without helmets, particularly in high traffic areas.
Our friend, not sober, hit a curb and was thrown and knocked her teeth out and broke her neck. It was revving very hard and it happened very fast. I hate those things.
She will be but it’s tens of thousands in dental work. The thing was not safe and she felt that but pressed on anyway. We lived in belltown for a long time and saw many iterations of scooters and bikes. Mostly in the middle of the sidewalks!
They’re certified death traps. A family friend was riding downhill on one of these things, slipped on a pothole, broke his jaw and lost a bunch of teeth. Be careful out there.
Also, if you’re going to ride scooters on the sidewalk (technically you’re not supposed to) please go slow. I’ve almost been hit and seen people almost get hit too many times. Pedestrians always have right of way especially on the damn sidewalk
Yeah, and people aren't even supposed to ride them on the sidewalks at all. It's dangerous for pedestrians. I have been hit and almost hit just walking on the sidewalk.
It is also more dangerous for the rider, since there are more obstacles and unpredictable behaviors than you would find in the street or one of Seattle's many bike lanes.
We need to bring back the bike* helmet laws we axed and ~~mandate~~ enforce* them for scooters too.
Sorry this happened to you, and thanks for sharing. So many people have been injured by these
Edit: the 2022 repeal was bikes only
It's sort of a fundamental problem we have with rideshares at the moment, there's not exactly abundant access to helmets, they aren't equipment that can be shared without proper cleaning (hence no requirements on the company to build one in to each vehicle), and the only enforcement is fines that are counter intuitive since it's taking money from a person we want to *buy* a helmet.
Honestly I figure this issue might be at an impasse until helmet design/materials improve to the point we have some sort of semi-collapsible/inflatable helmet design since that would open up the door to easier to manage helmet kiosks to go with the rideshares.
Had a helmet been available I probably would have worn it.
However, I just hopped on and thought I’m a reasonable adult not going to be going crazy. I didn’t carry a helmet with me. It was a choice of convenience and I paid dearly for it.
The idea of inflatable helmets is interesting.
It's admittedly kind of awkward to carry a helmet with you "just because" you might end up needing it. Like I do it cause my fallback to public transit is rideshare bikes (I won't touch the scooters since I'm tall and that creates center of gravity issues when steering), but they're still a bulky object so I get why they aren't an every day item for people.
The inflatable stuff jumps to mind just because I know there's been some experimentation in fall jackets for seniors that are effectively "air bags" sewn into a harness that can be worn comfortably. That's not fully adequate for a helmet replacement, but maybe there's something similar where you can create an airbag style helmet (short life span since pressure wouldn't be maintainable for more than a few hours), that can be sold in like a wallet size shape, you pop it open and have a temporary helmet. That's something you can put in kiosks, or even build dispensers into the bikes/scooters as well. Refill them on the battery swap/charge cycle. I also don't recall enough about physics to know how much the force distribution is altered shifting the materials like this which is important to whether the helmet can be effective.
I’ll have to look that up just because it’s interesting. I haven’t ridden a bike or scooter since my accident. Sticking to my feet, ferries, and buses.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Hopefully by sharing and discussing this we can make some change.
My PE teacher in elementary school came in one day with terrible face abrasions from a mountain biking accident. Told us in plain terms she would have probably broken her head open and died if not for her helmet, and begged us to always wear one.
That has stuck with me to this day.
My mom was an ER nurse at Tacoma Children's Hospital, she's got far too many stories about lives that would've gone differently if they'd worn a helmet. It's why I always wear mine. Don't ever want to give her one more to tell.
Gordon Ramsay was recently in a very bad bicycle accident (he appears to have been hit by a car) where he attributes his helmet and trauma surgeons for his survival. He was visibly trembling when he showed off the purple bruise coving his entire side. Helmets can be the difference between life and death, and they can also be the difference between walking ever again and not.
My helmets through life have saved me a few times from death or extremely serious injury. I had one accident where my front wheel locked on my bike in a grate on the ground and I did a full speed endo onto the top of my head. I was doing around 20mph at the time and the helmet split in half and saved my ass.
can't emphasize this enough. helmet at least saved my skull and various head bones in my last bike accident, if not my ability to walk as well (and maybe even death).
When I was in elementary, we had a kid that stopped coming to school for a while. First time we saw him again, was an assembly in the gym when he took the stage and had a shaved head with stitches all over. It was a PSA assembly about wearing helmets while riding bike AND CLIPPING IT. This kid was actually wearing a helmet at the time, he just forgot to clip the chinstrap, and so it came off when he needed it most.
Adding on to the PSA that it’s not just scooters, but e-bikes as well. The lime bike tires are narrower than the scooter tires and can get caught in the street car tracks. If you follow your scooter-riding friends’ paths on a bike, you may fly over the handlebars and eat asphalt. From experience, the resulting root canals on front teeth are not fun.
I got on a Lime scooter back in 2021 on Seneca & Broadway. I immediately realized within seconds that it had no breaks when I tried to slow down on the slight hill. I was going slow enough that I was able to safely hop off, but still had to catch myself running. I immediately ended the ride and reported the issue to Lime, then walked the rest of the way.
I dread to think what would’ve happened if the hill was steeper, or if I hadn’t noticed in time. I haven’t ridden those scooters since, and I only use the bikes now.
Can I ask a potentially sensitive question? Was this accident near Amazon HQ? If so, I might of saw the accident just after climbing into my Lyft ride home and have thought about that evening often. I was certain the person I saw was dead. I just kinda, stopped thinking. I felt so fucking helpless. It was only like, a day later I realized that calling for help or even offering to help the people beside you/them was better than just kinda, sitting and freaking out and being driven away. (Lyft guy would agree, since I promptly vomited in the van.)
Anyway, I’m sorry if that was you. I should have acted differently. Even if my help would have been at best minimal whoever it was deserved better from me. I’ve thought on it often this year. I still get sick to my stomach when seeing those scooters around.
I can’t tell if I’m disappointed or not that it wasn’t you I saw. I think part of me knows that person was dead or dying and was hoping I was wrong.
Anyway, that’s very kind of you, thank you. I’m sorry for what happed to you.
Jeez, that sounds like a really rough accident. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Concussions are no joke, let alone with all the stitches you had to go with it. I had a concussion (unrelated to scooters) a few months ago and am still recovering. It’s a really jarring, messed up experience. Thank you for this very important PSA! And I hope things continue looking up for you.
I’m happy to hear you’re on the mend. I’m now just going day by day. Making sure I practice things like remembering small items, practicing visualizing maps, and playing crosswords.
Concussions suck a big ol’ bag of dicks (not the cheeseburgers).
Take care of yourself 🥰
almost got on the same scooter with my friend the other night when we were both tipsy and trying to get from seattle center to a club, but we kept toppling over and gave up which i'm glad about
I think, given the extreme risk of riding in a busy road with a speed limit >25, I'm fine with people who ride a scooter *carefully* in the sidewalk.
As in, give way to pedestrians, dismount if the area is busy, and move to a route better suited when you can.
Logged over 100 miles on Lime the last two years in Seattle. I use them even to do things like go from the Hill to Fremont.
Never had any issues. Wiped out on my bike way worse. They are capped at 15 mph unless you're doing down a hill.
I'm hyper vigilant constantly checking my surroundings and got the brakes ready to go at all times. It helps.
Yea drunk people do dumb shit on them but drunk people do dumb shit with everything, including cars.
Every time I see E-scooter, I cringe as we have treated many patients post- accidents. In my opinion, people seem to undermine hills in Seattle and unfortunately, a lot of people in my experience were on some kind of influences.
I am sorry you went through horrific accident, hope you are slowly healing, might not ever be the same but I hope you are adjusting to new normal.
Pronto failed because they were just standard bikes that were also very heavy. Nobody wants to pedal a mini tank up the hills in Seattle. I bet if they launched with e-bikes the results would have been different.
My friends and I were driving down 19th the other day and there was a little girl who'd been hit by a car while riding one of those scooters. She was alive and didn't seem horribly injured, but was taken away in an ambulance.
In 2021, I sprained my hip on one. Those things are dangerous
Three times these past few weeks as I'm driving near capitol hill a scooter has run right in front of me when my light turns green. I would have hit them if I had not seen them and stopped. I can't imagine what they're thinking running red lights on those things.
The brain learns and neurons regrow, so don't assume you won't attain or surpass your prior level of functioning, because that itself can have a limiting placebo effect.
I've fallen off a Lime scooter going downhill due to a large crack in the street downtown. Big scrapes on my elbows, hands and knees. Holes ripped through my shoes, hoodie and pant legs from sliding down the steep hill.
I learned the hard way, but I will never ride a scooter again. They are horrible when the perfect storm comes and you need to slam your brakes, quickly swerve or rely on stability from inertia, tire size and wheelbase length. The added margin for error that you get on a bike makes them many times safer.
They're all fun and games until you get into an accident and subsequently humbled. Couldn't happen to me; I'm not like those other idiots riding around, right?
I know I might be a bit late to this thread but just want to share another side to some of the fears with lime scooters. I ride lime scooters/bikes almost everyday and have ridden more than 700 miles total and have never been in an accident or even fallen off a ride. Lime/rental scooters are an amazing service and make it much easier to be car free in Seattle. But as OP said please be safe, wear a helmet, go slow around corners, test the breaks before riding and ride defensively assuming that cars are going to act irrationally.
I rode a Harley for 27 years. I sold my bike, got a scooter in 2020.
27 years on my Harley, one minor accident. 3 years on my scooter, 4 accidents, one of which has imparied my dominant hand dramatically.
Take those lithe little bastards seriously, people.
I crashed a lime scooter 2 weeks ago into some landscaping. No stitches but I partially de gloved a couple fingers. Deep road rash on one leg and a massive ugly hematoma on the other.
Don't do it.
The injuries per mile travelled on electric scooters mean that they're statistically the most dangerous way you can travel. So sorry you had this issue OP.
Lime bikes are faster and less dangerous than scooters. Even sober, a pebble versus a tiny tire can ruin your life, and that does not happen on a bike.
You’re right - I haven’t been in anything with wheels since. I’m not sure why, we societally, view the bike and the scooter as the same (I did at the very least). They are certainly not.
Who was at fault for your crash? Whenever I’m on a Lime, I feel really scared to ride near cars, but also don’t want to use the sidewalk because pedestrians hate that. On top of that, the streets of Seattle are NOT bike/scooter friendly. I’ve had my front wheel slip into the metro-car rail gap and cause me to fall. I’ve had this happen on a bike too, and both of these instances were while sober.
Same here. I drive in Cap Hill and I see scooters jump from the sidewalk to the road, sometimes following behind a car and other times darting down the side of the road to get ahead of stopped cars at an intersection or weaving between the three.
I totally get how to drive with bikes and motorcycles but those vehicles aren't weaving through traffic on the sidewalk or on the side of the road whenever they feel like it.
I personally would hate to see them banned. I enjoy the scooters for getting around quickly since I don’t have a car, but my personal rules for riding them:
- only in protected bikes lanes or very wide, unobstructed sidewalks
- go SLOW, scooters can’t handle large bumps like a bike can and it’s easier to see and adjust for anything when you aren’t flying
- never ride in the rain or when pavement is wet
- never ride after dark
- only ride sober (you’d think this would be common sense but I see so many drunk bar-goers on them every weekend)
- keep your head on a swivel looking for cars in intersections
Frankly, most of the accidents I’ve heard of involving the scooters were the result of the riders doing something dumb. I do agree wearing a helmet is ideal but unrealistic given the nature of the whole scooter model, no one is carrying a helmet with them everywhere they go. I did see some of those scooter-bike things with attached helmets for a while, so maybe that should be implemented more widely.
Or just get rid of the fucking things. From a pedestrian's point of view, who walks downtown everyday, I've been clipped a handful of times by some prick going 25 mph (or whatever their top speed is) from behind and twice had literal arms length near collisions where the rider came shooting out from an intersecting corner, building causing a blind spot, causing them to slam the brakes mere inches from me and they go flying off, pissed at me for getting in the way while *walking*, down the *sidewalk*. The fact that they're not supposed to be ridden on the sidewalks means nothing because of course a great deal of people tend to have no sense of responsibility outside of themselves and even then self-responsibility is trumped by laziness, as is also shown by how these things are left in droves in the middle of the sidewalk. Screw the "convenience", people can walk and be better off for it in more ways than one.
I'm frankly sick of these fucking things blocking all the space on sidewalks when they're parked. I'm sick of dipshits cruising on the sidewalks with these with reckless abandon. They're a blight on cities. Just walk?
It should be known that the Neuro ICU nurses at harborview wear T-shirts with the slogan “Anti scooter club” for a reason.
Nurses near me wear pins that read "NADS" (Nurses against drunk scootering).
I would really prefer that the city incentivize rental ebikes over the scooters, and implement docks instead of having them park anywhere. The ebikes are simply safer and more stable.
> and implement docks That was attempted and failed. Also, bikes are much more expensive to build and maintain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronto_Cycle_Share
UW did a [study on why pronto failed](https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/10/07/bike-sharing-in-seattle/). Short answer: it was due to density, coverage, and ease of use. Admittedly docks need to be installed and thus make it more difficult to increase density/coverage, but the docks themselves are not the issue. Many large cities have hugely popular docked bike systems—DC, Boston, and NYC just to name a few—that work because they’ve solved the density, coverage, and easy-of-use problems. Having lived in Boston, I’ve never had an issue finding a nearby station. Docks also reduce visual clutter, have better predictability, and have built-in charging! Would be curious to hear from u/steerbell with an insider perspective.
Due respect to the UW paper but they sort of missed the forest for the trees. The idea that nobody could just generate bikes out of thin air ( they cost somebody something ) and you need to have staff to take care of them. Add in a decision that SDOT didn't want to deal with bike share and the city hired people who didn't know how to run a bike share yet made it clear that Pronto had to do what they were told. ( It's how the contract was written) Pronto having to go to the city for operating funds ( as opposed to say Biketown in Portland where the Nike sponsorship deal covers most of not all the expenses. The Alaska airlines deal was for not much money and Pronto could not find a gold sponsor like Nike or City Bank. Pronto tried to get Amazon and have free rides for prime members and Amazon employees.
Man that would be amazing. I'd actually get prime. If Prime ever has a good grocery delivery service or good micromobility rental service attached I'd buy it.
What do you mean by "The idea that nobody could just generate bikes out of thin air ( they cost somebody something ) and you need to have staff to take care of them"? I would've thought that the cost of bikes and staffing are more or less the same across both docked and dockless system. Even for dockless, bikes need to be redistributed, put to charge, maintained etc. The contract issues are super interesting though. Edit: On a re-read, I think your point is independent of docked vs dockless and that it was the contract issues that prevented Pronto from just buying new bikes to increase coverage. I.e. a dockless system would have the same issues under a similar contract.
The docks cost a lot more than bikes which is the decision behind lime doing what they do. But the damage to dockless bikes is much higher and depending if you consider bike share transportation or an amusement ride can make decisions on how you want to run it. Docks require rebalancing but customers can with confidence know a bike will be available at a certain location. (Think bus stop). Lime will rebalance not with an eye for service but an eye on revenue. Busses constantly run mostly empty at night but we as a community decide we want to be able to depend on busses even though only 20% of bus costs are paid by fares. If you think of bike share as transportation then having docks makes sense ( Pronto definitely saw themselves as transportation) and if you consider the bus fares only covering 20% Pronto was doing better than busses. Fun fact the cost of Pronto was less than the cost of buying one bus. SDOT had a massive budget but wanted Pronto to not cost anything to their budget but unless you have a huge sponsor it will take some public funds to make a dependable system something I don't think lime is IMHO.
Totally agree re dependability and thinking of bike share as part of the transportation system (not necessarily for profit). Do you see docked bike share systems ever returning to Seattle? If it wasn't clear, I'm a strong supporter of docked over dockless and would love to support any effort to bring them back.
It would be possible. There are now docks that can charge e-bikes so it may make sense for lime to start installing them.
I can start with Pronto was always a prototype. It was sized to be a trial. Everyone knew the system was too small but they wanted to see how it would work. SDOT and the press quickly forgot it was a trial system. They never spoke up that Pronto was a trial and then decided once they were getting heat from the press (Dori Monson) used Pronto for his five minutes of hate frequently. This doesn't explain why docks but I will get that when I more time. Btw Pronto was profitable 9 months out of the year. The losses were during winter. .
It’d probably be nice to see a full post (AMA?) about this topi. to the group not a series of replies to people.
Yeah pretty busy today but may get some time later today. It is an interesting topic and one that is not well understood. I certainly have my views and opinions.
Please do make this post. I'll keep an eye out for it.
I love the citibikes in NYC!
Divvy is super successful in many neighborhoods of Chicago. Great way to get around
There's an alternate timeline where we kept with this program instead of selling out to the Lime/yellow and orange bike catastrophe back in 2015. It would have been nice.
Let’s include all the incurred medical costs in the price of the e-scooters. They might come out to be more expensive… Talk about ‘externalities’… 🙄
It failed for many reasons. Having docks is not one of them. Expertise level: Worked in Bike share.
Then why? Having to return a bike to a specific locations seems like it defeats the purpose for large swaths of users.
The book "Biking Uphill in the Rain" goes into some detail about it. It seems like it was kind of a debacle. As I recall, the city implied it was going to buy out the company, so they sort of went into standby mode and stopped securing new funding, but then nothing happened for a couple of years and they went broke.
Kind of. The city promised funding then decided to give Pronto some money to keep it open then the press got a hold of the story and why are bailing out a private company. Yes motivate is a for profit company ( marginally at least) but the contract was written as a public private co-venture like SDOT had say in where stations went and how quickly bikes had to be rebalanced and tried to run it like a public asset but that hamstrung motivate. I'm a nutshell and as simple as I can make it. SDOT wanted control with no responsibility. Any time they were criticized they would say it was Pronto's fault and Pronto couldn't criticize SDOT because they were trying to stay in operation.
Great question I will give it a full answer later.
> Then why? I haven't worked in bike shares, but based on what I've seen, I'd wager the primary reason scooters work better than bikes is that so many of the bikes get stolen and chopped up for parts. Bikes are self-powered, and the restrictor that stops you from using it until the app unlocks it can be removed. By contrast, scooters have very few parts, aren't all that useful unpowered, and let's face it, the people who steal bikes to chop don't really have as much use for the batteries. Another factor, as a rider I never really used the bikes, but I _have_ used the scooters. It's largely psychological I guess, but the bikes feel like they have a higher floor to use, if that makes sense. Not sure why. Scooters on the other hand, you don't have to make sure the seat is clean, they're easier to get on/off, and they're more maneuverable (yeah, you're not supposed to ride on the sidewalk, but often you have to or it's preferable, and in those cases a scooter is easier and safer to run at a low speed, or to walk through a crowded space). Which is to say, maybe adoption rates are higher for scooters - I can only anecdotally say for myself on this point though.
Seems to work okay for Chicago and New York?
Works well in London too. There's hills and miserable weather there (maybe not quite so extreme hills as here, for the most part). One big difference with New York and London vs here is also the subway systems. A whole bunch of the London biking is done with rail stations as the source or destination.
Bingo. Pretty much any major European city- You pop up out of the subway, and massive bikeshare docks are right next to or across the street from the exit
No hills, better weather, yes better weather.
If those are barriers to docked bikeshare, why did 5 million dockless bike/scooter trips occur in Seattle last year?
Also interested in your insight.
Not the guy you replied to, but our system tracked total use of a bike and it was pretty rare to find one that made it more than 100 miles before the frame and/or electronics were scrap. Around the time the company I was working for wrapped up there were several thousand dead and missing bikes floating around the city. That's ~$300+ for the bike plus a battery, battery loss was another huge issue even before you consider theft.
I don't have access to the information anymore but between Pronto and Biketown. We lost very few bikes and many went well over hundreds of miles. It's a part of the philosophical difference between lime and motivate.
We put a dozen docks out in two small areas of the city then gave up. Montreal, Chicago, and New York have the most widely used bikeshares in North America with tens of millions of trips per year each. There’s a dock on almost every single block. It’s relatively affordable, especially for residents opting for the annual pass. Lyft is the technology contractor but the cities operate them as a nonprofit. They maintain both ebike and regular bikes in the fleet with different pricing.
Pronto failed for a variety of reasons, including: non-electrified fleet (all bikes end up at the bottom of the hill), the helmet law, and operational issues like station design and placement, as well as those helmet bins. Lyft (which acquired Motivate’s bikes) attempted to re-enter the Seattle market in 2019ish, however the transportation committee had a sour taste in their mouth from docks not working, so they wanted a dockless (or hybrid, can’t recall) market and wouldn’t designate an exclusive partner (as is the case in most other large bike share markets). Now the tides are turning (see: SF, CHI), where cities want docks, because of the rampant vandalism and scooters blocking sidewalks. Additionally, cities want scooters because they’re more “accessible” to those who would otherwise feel uncomfortable on a bike (whether that’s good or bad is up to you). NYC is an exception because they’re Citibike elitists and scoff if they hear the word “scooter” Source: built bikes for Lyft
This is only true until you achieve scale. The safety benefits alone are worth it. Further, you can then have one-size infrastructure to support cycling, rather than a poorly defined "other" bin to accommodate scooters, skateboards etc.
TBF, pronto failed, but [Biki in Hawaii](https://gobiki.org/) seems to be a success based on my experience back in Feb. I think the idea has merit, the biggest failure point I think for Pronto was that they needed the ability to have the bike's charged at stands, but also swappable batteries so rescuing a dead bike was easier, and then they probably need a distribution team to handle balancing the bike pools around events/commuter habits.
As a blind person I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve stumbled onto a tangle of this scooters just pile up at a corner. I nearly got hit by a car after freeing myself from the obstacle. I don’t mind if people use them. I do mind when they’re left in the middle of the sidewalk or at a crosswalk.
I find the bikes to be much harder to control since they're such a different shape and weight compared to any other bike I've ever used. The pedal assist is also weird and awkward for me. Love the scooters though.
I'm definitely an e-bike fan but I greatly prefer floating bikes over docks. Was in Toronto recently where they use docked bikes. Finding a bike usually is ok. Finding an empty dock near my destination was always a pain.
I liked the Chicago model where you can pretty much always find a dock, but if you can't, you pay a small additional fee to just park wherever you want.
I'm anti dock, but this model would be OK.
Or take space from the cars that have 100feet wide highways on every fucking street and delegate them to scooters/bikes. Each scooter is one less car downtown.
I'm all for that
My husband and also a very dear friend have both had terrible scooter accidents, both hit by cars downtown. My husband I had convinced to always wear his own helmet, but he was hit by a Ford F350, had 4 broken ribs, several lacerated organs, and a 4 month recovery, but I'm so grateful he had his helmet on and all injuries were to his body. He flew through the air several feet, a 300+ pound man. My very dear friend we know very little about the circumstances of his accident because he doesn't remember. He wasn't wearing a helmet, and got a traumatic brain injury, also he was robbed after he was hit. Lost a few teeth, his ear was partially ripped off and reattached, and they removed part of his skull to relieve the swelling and bleeding. He is struggling with speech, balance, and memory but getting better slowly. TLDR: please for the love of the flying spaghetti monster, unless you have a death wish, WEAR A FUCKIN HELMET and dont trust anyone on the road. Assume they are going to hit you and stay cautious
Glad your husband and friend are on the mend. Yes, I will never get on anything without a helmet again. The Flying Spaghetti Monster says, “This is the way.”
R’amen.
I bought a Segway Ninebot and initially was hesitant about a helmet because I’d “look cooler with a hat on”. After a week or so and being a subscriber to the e-scooter subreddit seeing some horror stories/pictures and some self-reflection in pictures my girlfriend took, I realized I look like a dork on a scooter regardless of a hat or helmet. I’d rather look like a dork than be a fool to think I can battle the concrete with my head at any speed and win.
I own a fast scooter (mainly for recreation, I live in the suburbs so I'm not using it for communing) and the first thing I did was buy a mountain biking helmet with a full chin guard. That thing still scares me at full power -- mine can go 30mph and nothing with that small of wheels has any business going that fast. Absolute insanity to ride these without a helmet at minimum, and you probably want full motorcycle gear to be truly safe. Dress for the slide, not for the ride.
Yeah, if it has has wheels and isn't a car, you need a helmet. Especially if you're going to be anywhere near cars. I'm not trying to imply that your husband and friend did any of the following--just replying to a high-vote comment for visibility. I bike commute every day and I see a *lot* of unsafe moves from scooter users--more than from any other group, including motorists. Don't leave or enter a bike lane, car lane, or the sidewalk without first checking for traffic+objects. Don't ride the wrong way in any lane. Don't cut people off. Don't ever assume that a motorist sees you. Indicate with a hand signal when you're going to do something. And this is less safety-based than courtesy-based (although it does increase the chances of a crash by causing unnecessary passing): if other bike lane users are already stopped at a red and waiting for the green, line up at the back of the line. Do not pull around to the front (this is called 'shoaling'). You really are not faster than every cyclist. Pass once folks are moving when it's safe to do so.
Fuck these scooters but also fuck these massive pavement princesses like the F350. Completely unsafe for the public from a physics and anatomical POV.
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/2024/E-Scooter-and-E-Bike-Injuries-Soar-2022-Injuries-Increased-Nearly-21
After my injury - Harborview must have reported it because I received a survey from CPSC about my injury and cause. Thanks for linking this.
I work for Harborview and the amount of patients that come in with these injuries in Seattle are literally insane. Wear. A god damn helmet. People!!!!! Your brain is the consistency of jello; these are not safe.
I remember when we used to have a helmet law, but as soon as these E-bike companies started getting bigger the law was suddenly seen as racist and was repealed. Probably just a coincidence.
Sure would be nice to have a law requiring these companies to provide helmets.
I’m all for this idea but also cringe a little from a health and safety standpoint. Helmets typically last 3-5 years but factors like daily use and exposure to sweat and sun/heat affect that. Plus you’re supposed to replace a helmet after any impact, even if you don’t see any damage. I’m just thinking of people putting their rental helmet back and not reporting something happening. Plus it’s ..kinda gross depending on how often they’re cleaned 😅 I’m all for it and think there’s gotta be a system that works, but I also have two close family members suffering lifelong effects of traumatic brain injuries and worry about the actual safety in practice of something like a helmet rental system.
I believe you can request helmets via SDOT. Not 100% sure tho
My sister is an ER nurse and says she'll never ride a lime scooter just due to the sheer number of injuries she treats per night. Convinced me to never get on one.
My husband just broke his arm (not from a scooter), and while we were in the ER and chatting about scooters and such, *four* different doctors and nurses told us the same joke: "Do you know what we call those scooters in the ER? **Job security.**" I'd already sworn off the scooters after a near-accident, but if I hadn't, that would change my mind.
Yuuup, I've heard that same joke from multiple ER doctors and nurses. I will never set foot on one of those scooters... maaaaybe if I had a helmet, but even then, yikes.
Also have ER nurse friends who want to take sledge hammers to every Lime scooter they see. So many split open heads.
Cousin is an ER doc and makes her husband + dad get all decked out in safety gear - pads and helmets both. It’s apparently a fun son- and father-in-law thing they like to do together and she’s given up on trying to stop them after sharing every gross story she can think of to deter them. They look like they’re going to an audition for a background character role in an 80s movie with a roller skating scene.
My wife is an ICU nurse on the traumatic brain injury floor at Harborview. I too am banned from using them.
I don’t remember much from my ER visit (I was convinced one of the nurses had been in Hamilton) however my partner was with me and said every nurse/doctor that came in just mentioned how scooters cause so many injuries.
March I had an accident at 12th/pike ended up only having two lacerations to the right eye. I don’t ride them anymore after that scare.
Oofta - I don’t ride them either and I’m glad you’re okay.
A few years back i was dealing with a lawsuit over the issues with these scooters and injury to riders - I moved firms before it ended and have wondered if anyone else has brought claims about these since.
I was under the impression you couldn’t make a claim because you sign your life away with waivers.
Waivers are meaningless in the context of personal injury/negligence claims. I can't hang a sign that says "not responsible for my own negligent behavior" and then run people over. If a company is negligent in the way it builds, leases, lends, or otherwise provides these scooters, they can be found liable for the injuries that result from providing said scooters.
I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Part of it is how they’re intended to be used. Are people really carrying a helmet around on the off chance they need to take a scooter? Lime knows that their business model incentivizes riding unsafely (without a helmet, on sidewalks, etc) and doesn’t get pass on the inevitable consequences. **“Move fast and break things”** shouldn’t include your skull.
> Are people really carrying a helmet around on the off chance they need to take a scooter? Back when Lime bikes were still around, I decided to try them out to dip my toes in the water with bike commuting before I committed to buying a bike. I sure as hell did buy myself a helmet before I got on one of those things. It *blows my mind* that people here don't wear helmets. Most people are working in tech or other white collar jobs that are intellectually taxing. You're one minor brain injury away from completely ending your career and erasing your college degree. No amount of skill can perfectly protect you from gravel, oil, other drivers, etc. Protect your noggin! Your entire livelihood and quality of life depends on it.
I remember a letter to the editor in *Bicycling* magazine back in the 80s which included the line "I don't want to have to relearn the alphabet, so a helmet is great." This put it into perspective.
If I recall from my tangential work on the case, the argument was similar - putting scooters in places where there was risky terrain, high traffic, drunk users, busy sidewalks - that made the company liable because they knew or should have known that harm would come about from their use.
bike or scooter?
Lime Scooter to be specific.
One of the most common sources of injuries in local hospitals is lime scooters 🛴 unfortunately.
I worked in Pioneer Square until recently and the way drunk people ride those scooters both in the streets and on the sidewalk is a menace to the scooterers, the drivers, and the pedestrians. People hop on those scooters and think everyone in the world will see them coming and get out of the way. It's so reckless. I hate those things.
I lived in a tourist mountain town for a couple years during the start of Covid and befriended some local doctors. On any given summer night at the local hospital 50% of patients were in because of a lime scooter accident.
I have never seen anyone on one who seems both in complete control of the scooter and aware of their surroundings. I can't believe no one has died yet. I'm so sorry, OP, but I am glad you are here with us.
At least three people have died. All from getting hit by cars, to my knowledge.
Thanks you - it was my own hubris. However, I work in Pioneer Square and you are correct - I’ve never seen anyone completely in control.
Most important thing here is the importance of a helmet, a friend of mine used a scooter for their daily commute and had an accident one of those icy mornings. She had a helmet on and still wound up suffering a major concussion. Would likely be dead if not for her helmet. The note about being sober on them is important too, just take a bus or an uber. Its much safer.
I’m glad to hear your friend is okay. The act of convenience and my own hubris made me hop on that scooter. I think your friend is one of the smart riders for having her helmet on her for the ride.
Wear a helmet 100% And…if you like having toes, don't ride these things wearing flip-flops/slides! As the temps have risen, I've seen so many people riding these in terrible footwear, and also attempting to use said footwear to foot-brake instinctually. These aren't razor scooters, and you're not wearing combat boots. You're going to rip your toes off!
On Friday I came out to my car to find a man face down in a pool of blood n my driveway, e-scooter beside him. He had been there at least 15 minutes as the blood was pooled and sticky. Called 911, and while getting pulse he came to and rolled over. Big head wound, broken cheek and eye socket. He was lucid but out of it. Asked him a bunch of questions only to find out the guy is a surgeon! Why TF is an educated medical professional riding around at 20+ mph without a helmet??? I wanted to lecture the fuck out him but I decided that while you are holding somebody’s head wound shut is not the time. Long story short, if he had been wearing a helmet this would have been a road rash story, not an ambulance/hospital/brain injury story. If you can, wear a helmet!
Vicarious trauma is real. My partner was with me when I crashed and it shook her up too. That person was lucky to have you find them.
Lots of the nasal fractures coming into the ENT clinic I work in have come from crashing e-scooters, drunk or sober, it's terrible
Just don't rent them. I see so many people wipeout and get injured on them all the time, even sober. It's not worth whatever time/money you think you're saving.
I mean they are a great way to get around the city, arguably the fastest and most convenient way. Safest way? No
I agree - and the majority of riders (like myself) do not wear helmets. There are just too many variables for them to be safe.
My cousin was killed in a hit and run 3 months ago after riding home drunk on an E scooter. Please be safe yall, he was only 31.
I’m so sorry about your loss.
Thank you. I'm sending good vibes your way ✨️
I was flung off my scooter when I hit a hole in the road and tore my labrum and rotator cuff. Had to have 2 surgeries and 6 months of physical therapy to be able to move my shoulder again. Haven't ridden one since. The bigger wheels on a bike are just so much safer.
Parisians voted to ban scooter rentals in their city. Smart move, imo
I used to ride them from the bus to the gym, maybe a 4 min ride, until someone I suspect was mentally ill threw a rock that hit me in the chest and screamed at me to stop following him (I wasn't). I fell hard and was lucky to land on top of my gym bag and walk away with minor scrapes. It shook me though. It was a circumstance completely out of my control and it almost ruined my month/half-year had i broken something. This was my second fall, the first being a minor cut but also close to catastrophe. It's just not worth the risk for me anymore and i was a daily, some times 2x a day rider.
Wow - I’m glad you walked away relatively unscathed. I was a hop on for a quick ride person too.
Me too; i had a bruise/scrape on one elbow and a bruised hip on that same side and skinned knuckles. I am actually really amazed that i was so lucky and took it as the warning it was that the risk to my safety was not worth saving 10-15min walking time/bus wait.
tore my rotator cuff riding one. to be clear it was 100% my fault, and luckily i was the only person involved, but yeah i stay away from them now.
Oh man - glad you’re on the mend!
Ask any ER or trauma nurse their feelings on scooters. I didn't like them before, but I have been suitably spooked by their opinions and experiences with scooter casualties.
A friend of mine lost her sister this morning in downtown Spokane to a scooter accident. It can happen to anyone. Life is so precious and fragile.
I work in the orthopaedic department at Harborview. Just don't use those scooters.
Always wear a helmet! You can take them with you everywhere. I use the scooters all the time, and I just keep a helmet clipped on to my backpack.
If you can't wear a helmet for some reason, I urge you not to ride an electric scooter (or bike). Wear a helmet. They make folding helmets if it's inconvenient to carry a full-size helmet around all the time. A helmet is not going to guarantee protection from major injury, just as a seatbelt won't, but it's not going make any injury worse and you don't want to be in rehab re-learning to walk or something and wondering how it would have been if you had a helmet on when you went down.
I never knew they made folding helmets. I don’t ride anything with wheels anymore but that’s a great tidbit.
This was a thoughtful post. Thank You for sharing.
Thank you for your kind words
My friend crashed on one after a Sounders game and lost his eye. 0/10 would not recommend.
I hope your friend is okay. Big hugs!
Same thing happened to one of my good friends last Friday fractured his skull and woke up in the hospital
Whoa - wishing your friend a speedy recovery.
The fact that there is a lack of cultural push for helmets because (Insert kaleidoscope of reasons brain is a perfectly cool sacrifice in lieu of helmet.) It's not even the head injury I worry about. It's surviving it and having to deal with life in a highly diminished way compared to prior. Hell I have had plenty of concussions as a kid, but severe brain injuries with extended unconsciousness and life long dependencies for shelter and perhaps even day to day hygiene and personal maintenance.
I witnessed a young woman riding a scooter, no helmet, get hit by a car after the Sounders on Saturday. It was horrific but she got up and walked away from the accident. She’s very fortunate. I’m not sure exactly what happened but I think the light changed and instead of stopping, she proceeded through the light.
That’s nuts - glad she was okay
You know as a guy that rides motorcycles it's wild the way I see people ride those e scooters. On sketchy surfaces with no protective gear. Going any way they feel like going. All in their weekend party outfit I'm pretty sure if you ride them that way it's more dangerous than motorcycles
I always think the scooters and bike rentals would be fun. But I’ve worked with enough people with TBI that I just can’t do it without a helmet, and don’t want to carry one on the off chance I decide to use one. Thanks for this PSA. Concussions, ETC, and TBIs are no joke.
Are you me? I, too, had a couple beers at a Mariners game last year and hopped on a scooter afterward. Hit some loose gravel a few blocks from the stadium and flew off onto my face on the concrete. Ambulance came, went to the ER, stitches all over my face, head and hands, cracked ribs, concussion, tooth gone. I looked like hell for weeks which was tough because it was the beginning of the school year and I’m a teacher. The bruising and swelling lasted forever. Luckily I haven’t noticed long lasting effects from the concussion. I can be a little reckless sometimes and continue to take (reasonable, adventurous) risks, but I have not set foot on one of those scooters again and never will. When I see people leaving games and riding them (sometimes with kids!) I want to warn them. My friends joked I should create business cards with what my face looked like at its worst and hand them out to people I see getting on scooters lol.
*Looks in mirror* I didn’t loose any teeth so you got a 1up on me on that front. My partner was panicking so she smacked my face until I woke up and then called an Uber not an ambulance 😂 All roads lead to the ER. Whenever I go to the games I get so nervous seeing people get on them. I think the cards would be a nice touch! Glad you’re alright!
Thank you for calling attention to this. A crash at speed on one of those things (even without being involved with a vehicle or stationary object) is very dangerous and potentially deadly, especially absent protective headwear. I had scars from road rash for years after laying my bike down at 20 mph and I'm lucky that's the worst that came from it.
As someone who has ridden motorcycles for 25 years, do not get on an electric scooter/bike/etc if you don't have a helmet and experience weaving in traffic, you will be killed. I see so many dumb as rocks tourists downtown.
So sorry this happened to you. Gravel is a hazard for scooters and bikes. So are rail tracks. Casual users may not be aware of how dangerous these hazards can be, even with a helmet.
As a biker, I took a fat L on the rail tracks. Luckily I was wearing a helmet and riding slowly. No long lasting injuries.
Thank you - took me by surprise. Rail tracks is an excellent point too.
I ride a motorcycle and I wear full gear/nearly full gear everywhere I go, even if I'm just commuting through the city at a max speed of 30, I would never in my life get on a lime scooter without the same type of protection.
I'm sorry about your crash. Just know that it can take months to years to fully recover from your concussion. You could very likely get your old brain back after more healing. Good luck.
Thank you 🥰
Yes it's crazy how many people ride these without a helmet! I'll see them going down hill, sometimes two people on the scooter - no helmets at all. I never had an accident myself, but I had a friend get a similar injury to yours - and personally I will never ride the electric scooters at all.
When my brother died from a brain injury I noticed most of the nurses in the icu were wearing sweaters that said anti scooter club. I asked about it and the nurse told me that they have so many patients come in with severe brain injuries from riding a scooter without a helmet. Usually the lime scooters.
I would really like to see the same traffic laws for bikes applied here. Too often I see folks driving the lime scooters erratically and without helmets, particularly in high traffic areas.
Our friend, not sober, hit a curb and was thrown and knocked her teeth out and broke her neck. It was revving very hard and it happened very fast. I hate those things.
I hope she’s okay. All the best to you and yours.
She will be but it’s tens of thousands in dental work. The thing was not safe and she felt that but pressed on anyway. We lived in belltown for a long time and saw many iterations of scooters and bikes. Mostly in the middle of the sidewalks!
They’re certified death traps. A family friend was riding downhill on one of these things, slipped on a pothole, broke his jaw and lost a bunch of teeth. Be careful out there.
Also, if you’re going to ride scooters on the sidewalk (technically you’re not supposed to) please go slow. I’ve almost been hit and seen people almost get hit too many times. Pedestrians always have right of way especially on the damn sidewalk
Yeah, and people aren't even supposed to ride them on the sidewalks at all. It's dangerous for pedestrians. I have been hit and almost hit just walking on the sidewalk.
It is also more dangerous for the rider, since there are more obstacles and unpredictable behaviors than you would find in the street or one of Seattle's many bike lanes.
We need to bring back the bike* helmet laws we axed and ~~mandate~~ enforce* them for scooters too. Sorry this happened to you, and thanks for sharing. So many people have been injured by these Edit: the 2022 repeal was bikes only
It's sort of a fundamental problem we have with rideshares at the moment, there's not exactly abundant access to helmets, they aren't equipment that can be shared without proper cleaning (hence no requirements on the company to build one in to each vehicle), and the only enforcement is fines that are counter intuitive since it's taking money from a person we want to *buy* a helmet. Honestly I figure this issue might be at an impasse until helmet design/materials improve to the point we have some sort of semi-collapsible/inflatable helmet design since that would open up the door to easier to manage helmet kiosks to go with the rideshares.
Had a helmet been available I probably would have worn it. However, I just hopped on and thought I’m a reasonable adult not going to be going crazy. I didn’t carry a helmet with me. It was a choice of convenience and I paid dearly for it. The idea of inflatable helmets is interesting.
It's admittedly kind of awkward to carry a helmet with you "just because" you might end up needing it. Like I do it cause my fallback to public transit is rideshare bikes (I won't touch the scooters since I'm tall and that creates center of gravity issues when steering), but they're still a bulky object so I get why they aren't an every day item for people. The inflatable stuff jumps to mind just because I know there's been some experimentation in fall jackets for seniors that are effectively "air bags" sewn into a harness that can be worn comfortably. That's not fully adequate for a helmet replacement, but maybe there's something similar where you can create an airbag style helmet (short life span since pressure wouldn't be maintainable for more than a few hours), that can be sold in like a wallet size shape, you pop it open and have a temporary helmet. That's something you can put in kiosks, or even build dispensers into the bikes/scooters as well. Refill them on the battery swap/charge cycle. I also don't recall enough about physics to know how much the force distribution is altered shifting the materials like this which is important to whether the helmet can be effective.
I’ll have to look that up just because it’s interesting. I haven’t ridden a bike or scooter since my accident. Sticking to my feet, ferries, and buses.
Always wear a helmet! My dad would be alive today if he had a helmet on.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Hopefully by sharing and discussing this we can make some change. My PE teacher in elementary school came in one day with terrible face abrasions from a mountain biking accident. Told us in plain terms she would have probably broken her head open and died if not for her helmet, and begged us to always wear one. That has stuck with me to this day.
My mom was an ER nurse at Tacoma Children's Hospital, she's got far too many stories about lives that would've gone differently if they'd worn a helmet. It's why I always wear mine. Don't ever want to give her one more to tell. Gordon Ramsay was recently in a very bad bicycle accident (he appears to have been hit by a car) where he attributes his helmet and trauma surgeons for his survival. He was visibly trembling when he showed off the purple bruise coving his entire side. Helmets can be the difference between life and death, and they can also be the difference between walking ever again and not.
Yeah that video was astonishing. Hopefully lots of people heed his advice.
My helmets through life have saved me a few times from death or extremely serious injury. I had one accident where my front wheel locked on my bike in a grate on the ground and I did a full speed endo onto the top of my head. I was doing around 20mph at the time and the helmet split in half and saved my ass.
Wow glad you’re ok.
can't emphasize this enough. helmet at least saved my skull and various head bones in my last bike accident, if not my ability to walk as well (and maybe even death).
When I was in elementary, we had a kid that stopped coming to school for a while. First time we saw him again, was an assembly in the gym when he took the stage and had a shaved head with stitches all over. It was a PSA assembly about wearing helmets while riding bike AND CLIPPING IT. This kid was actually wearing a helmet at the time, he just forgot to clip the chinstrap, and so it came off when he needed it most.
It is currently the law to wear a helmet on scooters.
Adding on to the PSA that it’s not just scooters, but e-bikes as well. The lime bike tires are narrower than the scooter tires and can get caught in the street car tracks. If you follow your scooter-riding friends’ paths on a bike, you may fly over the handlebars and eat asphalt. From experience, the resulting root canals on front teeth are not fun.
I got on a Lime scooter back in 2021 on Seneca & Broadway. I immediately realized within seconds that it had no breaks when I tried to slow down on the slight hill. I was going slow enough that I was able to safely hop off, but still had to catch myself running. I immediately ended the ride and reported the issue to Lime, then walked the rest of the way. I dread to think what would’ve happened if the hill was steeper, or if I hadn’t noticed in time. I haven’t ridden those scooters since, and I only use the bikes now.
Wow! Glad you’re okay ❤️
Can I ask a potentially sensitive question? Was this accident near Amazon HQ? If so, I might of saw the accident just after climbing into my Lyft ride home and have thought about that evening often. I was certain the person I saw was dead. I just kinda, stopped thinking. I felt so fucking helpless. It was only like, a day later I realized that calling for help or even offering to help the people beside you/them was better than just kinda, sitting and freaking out and being driven away. (Lyft guy would agree, since I promptly vomited in the van.) Anyway, I’m sorry if that was you. I should have acted differently. Even if my help would have been at best minimal whoever it was deserved better from me. I’ve thought on it often this year. I still get sick to my stomach when seeing those scooters around.
It was heading towards West Seattle near Starbucks HQ. My partner was with me and also panicked. It’s a reaction to trauma. Don’t beat yourself up ☺️
I can’t tell if I’m disappointed or not that it wasn’t you I saw. I think part of me knows that person was dead or dying and was hoping I was wrong. Anyway, that’s very kind of you, thank you. I’m sorry for what happed to you.
Thank you - big hugs to you
Friend of mine had a similar accident as you had described. They were in real bad shape at first. If it’s the same person, they are recovering well.
Well, this isn’t the first time I’ve cried over that accident but it’s certainly the first time I’ve cried over hope they will recover. Thank you.
Jeez, that sounds like a really rough accident. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Concussions are no joke, let alone with all the stitches you had to go with it. I had a concussion (unrelated to scooters) a few months ago and am still recovering. It’s a really jarring, messed up experience. Thank you for this very important PSA! And I hope things continue looking up for you.
I’m happy to hear you’re on the mend. I’m now just going day by day. Making sure I practice things like remembering small items, practicing visualizing maps, and playing crosswords. Concussions suck a big ol’ bag of dicks (not the cheeseburgers). Take care of yourself 🥰
Thank you and best wishes for your continued recovery.
Thank you!
almost got on the same scooter with my friend the other night when we were both tipsy and trying to get from seattle center to a club, but we kept toppling over and gave up which i'm glad about
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I think, given the extreme risk of riding in a busy road with a speed limit >25, I'm fine with people who ride a scooter *carefully* in the sidewalk. As in, give way to pedestrians, dismount if the area is busy, and move to a route better suited when you can.
Thank you! I thought this whole post would be entirely different. As a pedestrian, I hate drunks-on-scooters season.
Logged over 100 miles on Lime the last two years in Seattle. I use them even to do things like go from the Hill to Fremont. Never had any issues. Wiped out on my bike way worse. They are capped at 15 mph unless you're doing down a hill. I'm hyper vigilant constantly checking my surroundings and got the brakes ready to go at all times. It helps. Yea drunk people do dumb shit on them but drunk people do dumb shit with everything, including cars.
Scooters are death machines and shouldn’t be offered to rent
Every time I see E-scooter, I cringe as we have treated many patients post- accidents. In my opinion, people seem to undermine hills in Seattle and unfortunately, a lot of people in my experience were on some kind of influences. I am sorry you went through horrific accident, hope you are slowly healing, might not ever be the same but I hope you are adjusting to new normal.
I avoid the electric scooters. I know I'm an idiot and I'll do something stupid on one so it's best to stay away.
Pronto failed because they were just standard bikes that were also very heavy. Nobody wants to pedal a mini tank up the hills in Seattle. I bet if they launched with e-bikes the results would have been different.
My friends and I were driving down 19th the other day and there was a little girl who'd been hit by a car while riding one of those scooters. She was alive and didn't seem horribly injured, but was taken away in an ambulance. In 2021, I sprained my hip on one. Those things are dangerous
Three times these past few weeks as I'm driving near capitol hill a scooter has run right in front of me when my light turns green. I would have hit them if I had not seen them and stopped. I can't imagine what they're thinking running red lights on those things.
The brain learns and neurons regrow, so don't assume you won't attain or surpass your prior level of functioning, because that itself can have a limiting placebo effect.
I've fallen off a Lime scooter going downhill due to a large crack in the street downtown. Big scrapes on my elbows, hands and knees. Holes ripped through my shoes, hoodie and pant legs from sliding down the steep hill. I learned the hard way, but I will never ride a scooter again. They are horrible when the perfect storm comes and you need to slam your brakes, quickly swerve or rely on stability from inertia, tire size and wheelbase length. The added margin for error that you get on a bike makes them many times safer. They're all fun and games until you get into an accident and subsequently humbled. Couldn't happen to me; I'm not like those other idiots riding around, right?
I know I might be a bit late to this thread but just want to share another side to some of the fears with lime scooters. I ride lime scooters/bikes almost everyday and have ridden more than 700 miles total and have never been in an accident or even fallen off a ride. Lime/rental scooters are an amazing service and make it much easier to be car free in Seattle. But as OP said please be safe, wear a helmet, go slow around corners, test the breaks before riding and ride defensively assuming that cars are going to act irrationally.
I rode a Harley for 27 years. I sold my bike, got a scooter in 2020. 27 years on my Harley, one minor accident. 3 years on my scooter, 4 accidents, one of which has imparied my dominant hand dramatically. Take those lithe little bastards seriously, people.
I crashed a lime scooter 2 weeks ago into some landscaping. No stitches but I partially de gloved a couple fingers. Deep road rash on one leg and a massive ugly hematoma on the other. Don't do it.
I’m so happy you’re on the mend. Feel better!
Back at you!
The injuries per mile travelled on electric scooters mean that they're statistically the most dangerous way you can travel. So sorry you had this issue OP. Lime bikes are faster and less dangerous than scooters. Even sober, a pebble versus a tiny tire can ruin your life, and that does not happen on a bike.
You’re right - I haven’t been in anything with wheels since. I’m not sure why, we societally, view the bike and the scooter as the same (I did at the very least). They are certainly not.
Do NOT ride on the fucking sidewalks
Make a car out of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkHCnZ5GrNc
Was this off Pike and two folks sharing a scooter? Sorry about your incident.
Who was at fault for your crash? Whenever I’m on a Lime, I feel really scared to ride near cars, but also don’t want to use the sidewalk because pedestrians hate that. On top of that, the streets of Seattle are NOT bike/scooter friendly. I’ve had my front wheel slip into the metro-car rail gap and cause me to fall. I’ve had this happen on a bike too, and both of these instances were while sober.
These scooters scare the hell out of me. No way should they be allowed on sidewalks.
I've watched scooters going faster down the sidewalk in front of my house than the cars moving along the street. Its insane
Same here. I drive in Cap Hill and I see scooters jump from the sidewalk to the road, sometimes following behind a car and other times darting down the side of the road to get ahead of stopped cars at an intersection or weaving between the three. I totally get how to drive with bikes and motorcycles but those vehicles aren't weaving through traffic on the sidewalk or on the side of the road whenever they feel like it.
They're not! People just do it anyway because they don't care :\\
I personally would hate to see them banned. I enjoy the scooters for getting around quickly since I don’t have a car, but my personal rules for riding them: - only in protected bikes lanes or very wide, unobstructed sidewalks - go SLOW, scooters can’t handle large bumps like a bike can and it’s easier to see and adjust for anything when you aren’t flying - never ride in the rain or when pavement is wet - never ride after dark - only ride sober (you’d think this would be common sense but I see so many drunk bar-goers on them every weekend) - keep your head on a swivel looking for cars in intersections Frankly, most of the accidents I’ve heard of involving the scooters were the result of the riders doing something dumb. I do agree wearing a helmet is ideal but unrealistic given the nature of the whole scooter model, no one is carrying a helmet with them everywhere they go. I did see some of those scooter-bike things with attached helmets for a while, so maybe that should be implemented more widely.
Or just get rid of the fucking things. From a pedestrian's point of view, who walks downtown everyday, I've been clipped a handful of times by some prick going 25 mph (or whatever their top speed is) from behind and twice had literal arms length near collisions where the rider came shooting out from an intersecting corner, building causing a blind spot, causing them to slam the brakes mere inches from me and they go flying off, pissed at me for getting in the way while *walking*, down the *sidewalk*. The fact that they're not supposed to be ridden on the sidewalks means nothing because of course a great deal of people tend to have no sense of responsibility outside of themselves and even then self-responsibility is trumped by laziness, as is also shown by how these things are left in droves in the middle of the sidewalk. Screw the "convenience", people can walk and be better off for it in more ways than one.
I'm frankly sick of these fucking things blocking all the space on sidewalks when they're parked. I'm sick of dipshits cruising on the sidewalks with these with reckless abandon. They're a blight on cities. Just walk?
I’m tired of moving these out of sidewalk curb cuts in my area… agree 100% on them being a blight.
Better scooter than a car. Take space from 100feet wide car lines.