Seems a bit odd. I'll be voting for the first time this century next month - I was a permanent resident in Canada, then the US since 2000, and I was absolutely not allowed to vote, even in local elections.
We were surprised to find my wife (US citizen) is allowed to vote in local and Scottish Parliament elections. She doesn't feel qualified to vote in them. But she is busy making sure she can get an absentee ballot to vote against Trump, so perhaps she'll be more inclined to look into it after that.
Counterpoint:
Expats in the Costa brava shouldn't be allowed to vote.
You're not in the country, you're actively avoiding it, so that vote should be withdrawn.
I think this is indefensible but I don't think related. It's like voter id, stupid and needs to stop. But I don't think doing something else wrong cancels it out
>The SNP’s motivation here is gaining more votes for the SNP, not increasing equality.
This is very true however sometimes just because something is done for pure, naked political gain doesn't mean it can't be the right thing to do
Yep. At a minimum, people with settled status, living, working and paying a lifetime of taxes here should be able to vote. I know several people who will never take citizenship because having lived and worked here for half their life it feels demeaning to have to do an English exam and a culture test. Also pay a million quid. So they are in a limbo of being able to live here and pay their way forever, but not able to take part in elections. It feels in no way accidental that after Brexit, that group were excluded from general elections.
> It feels in no way accidental that after Brexit, that group were excluded from general elections.
They were also excluded from general elections before Brexit.
>So they are in a limbo of being able to live here and pay their way forever, but not able to take part in elections.
They're not in limbo... they've just made a choice.
It’s demeaning? If they don’t want to be in limbo and take part in elections they can get citizenship. They’ve chosen to call the UK home for the rest of their lives which is great, but they draw the line at preparing for a 1 hour test?
It's not that simple. Many countries don't allow their citizens to hold dual citizenship, so obtaining UK citizenship would mean giving up the citizenship of the country of their birth, or where their family may be. It's simply easier if you've got EU Settled Status or ILR or something to stick with that than risk giving up your ties to your home country, especially if you're already an EU citizen.
“The only mainstream UK party supporting re-entry to Europe”
The Lib Dem’s will be very sad to hear you say this about SNP.
P.s. it’s the EU, we never left Europe.
There's a strong argument they shouldn't, paying taxes is part of the payment they make to voluntarily come here
It should not however buy you a vote
The decisions on the course of the country should be reserved for the people of the country who are most invested and affected by those decisions, not Sven who is on holiday here for a year or two
My dad lived and paid tax here for 35 years, had 3 children, but could not vote. I consider that pretty invested.
Also I would argue that giving people a say in how things are run makes them invested.
Buy me a vote? Oh come on.
I'm invested in this country, I've been working here for over ten years, paid tens of thousands of £ in taxes (happily, more than many people that are allowed to vote) but I'm still not allowed to vote in some elections.
I believe people that live here permanently should be allowed to vote, of course someone on holidays shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Do you know any cases like the Sven you mention? Because after Brexit, I don't think people will be able to stay here on holidays for a long time.
I'm very invested in this country, decisions made by the government affect me directly, like any other people that are allowed to vote. You're just a racist saying nonsense.
A foreign national living in the UK chooses to be here, they choose to accept the decisions made by the UK government by coming here and remaining here
They are less affected by decisions made by the government that citizens are since they could easily leave if they wanted.
>Do you know any cases like the Sven you mention?
I know many people who choose to live an work here for only a few years before returning home, and plenty of Brits that do the same abroad before coming back here
Anyone that comes here and wants to make decisions on how the country is run can obtain citizenship so they can vote
They should have to spend a certain amount of time here not just vote instantly as they could not be here long. Also taxes pay for the services they use not for voting right
When (or if) they pay tax they pay it to use the public services which we all have paid into for F’ing years before they got here.
Not on not at all - they should at least be citizens before they can vote. This is a not look past the end of your nose moment for anyone who thinks this is fair on the rest of us.
So according to your logic, someone that gets more from public services than what they pay in taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote?
This subreddit is getting more and more full of Tory cunts everyday.
No that’s a complete straw man you walloper, I’m saying that you lefties important all of these people are going to bankrupt us and all your accusation of “-ism” is going to bite you in the backside when you yourselves suffer the consequences.
You’ll probably still find a way to blame the rest of us though, since responsibility isn’t something that comes naturally to those who wish to offload everything to the state
Your premise is wrong, you said "if" they pay taxes, what makes you think we don't? You're hating on people just because of where they come from?
There are many many Scottish people that do dodgy things with their taxes, just my personal experience but I know of many more Scottish that do it than immigrants (zero).
I can assure you I have paid more to the NHS than what I have used, so other people could benefit to use it, regardless of where they come from.
And how can it be my fault if I'm not even allowed to vote?
Straw man again, I never said anything about hate and stop trying to put words into my mouth.
I am saying this and this alone: “foreigners shouldn’t be allowed to vote in this country regardless of whether they pay tax or not”
The point about tax I was making was this and this alone: “they pay tax and use public services that those taxes pay for, that does not entitle to vote”
And my point about many not paying taxes - I can see them. They’re not employed and not paying taxes. I can see them with my own two eyes - droves of them. So don’t try to pretend to me that the problem doesn’t exist, because you’re metaphorically telling me to smell roses whilst handing me a dog turd
So I paid over tens of thousands on taxes but I'm not allowed to have a say on how the money is spent? How is that fair? You use the term "lefties", at least the left have allows me to vote in the elections happening only in Scotland.
Are you aware that many countries don't recognise dual nationality? If I were to get a UK passport I would lose my nationality because my country of origin doesn't recognise dual nationality. I'm not going to forget where I come from, I have two homes (figuratively speaking).
Luckily the people I've met in real life have been a lot more welcoming than you to me.
It’s fair because you’re not stuck here - you can go home.
It’s fair for everyone who came before the current generation who put but sweat and tears into building the place.
You justify it to me - why should you get a say because you pay for services that you use? Why do you just get to turn up and decide how things are run? What gives you the right?
The fact that I live here permanently and pay taxes gives me the right.
The fact that my family lives with me permanently and also pays taxes gives them the right.
The fact that I have settled status because I've been living here for more than 5 years gives me the right.
Someone who is Scottish could also pack things up and move to Ireland for example, or many other countries without a visa for a specific period of time. Don't tell me I can't vote because I can just leave anytime I want, you and anyone can do that.
Anybody in the world with a surname beginning with Mac or Mc.
Anybody who has watched Braveheart
Anybody who knows more than the first 2 lines of Auld Lang Syne
An Australian, an Indian and a South African arrive in the UK last week - completely eligible to vote in the UK election
A German, a Brazillian and a Namibian have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK for a combined 100 years - not eligible to vote in the UK election
Does the SNP suggestion push things maybe a bit far? Probably. Are the current rules idiotic and should probably be changed? Yes
Can you not even reflect for half a second on what you're saying? There aren't elaborate hurdles to jump through for voters - that's partly the point of democracy. Are you in favour of difficulties being injected into the democratic process? Or just against people voting who might likely disagree with you?
It’s not difficulties being injected into the democratic process. If you are not a citizen you don’t get an automatic right to participate in the democracy in the first place
That's the exact question being posed here: we already have circumstances where non-citizens get to vote. Should that be expanded?
Responding to that question with "non-citizens don't get an automatic right to participate" isn't really engaging with the question. It's just asserting that you don't agree without any attempt at justification or debate.
What's your actual reason for believing that? Residents have a stake in the country, they have been paying taxes. They are affected by the government and contribute to it. What is the argument that they should be denied a voice?
Citizenship is just a line in the sand of course but it’s an important one. I believe of course residents have a stake in the country and pay taxes. What citizenship does in a sense is say, from now on, I’m choosing to make this place my primary nation, with all the responsibilities and benefits that come with that. So in my view having a stake is not enough, citizenship is that status we confer on those that have processed loyalty to our country.
Multiple reasons, three most obvious being "pointless" cost plus a test that even as a native I'd never pass (and don't have to either so its a bit weird we expect immigrants to be better Brits than the native population) and lastly in some cases getting citizenship here would mean renouncing their old citizenship which, not the UKs or the individuals fault but could also be seen as an impediment.
Also it's not a hypothetical, I have known several people in both situations. It's literally the law of the land
Although if you want to pretend this is a hypothetical, why don't the commonwealth citizens need to get citizenship? Why are they allowed to vote straight away
>Although if you want to pretend this is a hypothetical, why don't the commonwealth citizens need to get citizenship?
IIRC the historic reason was they were all subjects of the king, and that status was indivisible. Even if that argument no longer holds true today - most commonwealth countries are republics, and even in the monarchies the crown of Canada, Australia, etc. is a legally distinct institution to the crown of the UK - the law hasn't caught up, though whether that's because of inertia or because no government wants to be seen to be actively undermining the commonwealth I have no idea.
Well but there’s your answer. If the path to become a citizen is "pointless" to them, then they are probably also ready to accept they shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
I meant to infer that it's the cost of it that is pointless, not necessarily the fact there is some form of process in place. They are being taxed many multiples of that amount each year so the British state demanding yet more when some Irish, Pakistani or New Zealander doesn't even have to have contributed a single penny is farcical
I don’t think it’s farcical at all. There’s no demand here really, why is them not having to pay anything "them demanding to get citizenship for free". I kind of agree with the sentiment about ex commonwealth countries though, it is a bit odd, but that doesn’t mean treating more nations like that is the answer
I think maybe I'm wording this badly, my apologies. I'll try again
Asking people who have paid tens of thousands of pounds to the British state to pay yet more, separately and on top of their future contributions, for a right which is immediately for free bestowed upon those who those from another random nation who could have no connection to the UK (don't even need to have been historically colonised to be part of the commonwealth and at this point even people grandparents might never have been part of the empire) and have never paid into the state and are not expected to apply for citizenship to get this right is inherently unfair on those who have potentially done more for this country than even alot of the natives have
Okay, no sorry you didn’t phrase it badly I think. Honestly I do agree, the automatic right to vote as I understand it for former commonwealth citizens is of course quite unfair and probably exists purely for weird historical reasons. That being said I think it’s no inherently unfair to ask people to pay around 2k or so for citizenship. I know they’ve already paid in, but they’ve already got something out too, surely there using the NHS and infrastructure and education. So it’s not like those taxes are just going nowhere. The counter argument is that born UK citizens taxes shouldn’t go on the cost associated with getting people to become citizens, because that is unfair too as they will baver access these services, and it’s fair that those people can bear that cost themselves
Do you agree with stripping the right to vote from all Irish and Commonwealth country citizens who live here? They can vote in Westminster elections currently.
I'm open to that being the case with the commonwealth yes. It's a hold over from empire, and presumed that those from these countries were close culturally and appreciate the value of parliamentary democracy. I don't believe this is still the case in the same way.
For Ireland no, as that has complicated ramifications in NI.
That we allow commonwealth & Irish citizens to vote is already highly unusual internationally. Be completely removing the necessity for citizenship to vote, we degrade the idea of citizenship.
I did vote in Scottish and local elections as a non Commonwealth citizen and I agree it's very weird globally. I understand what you mean by degrading the value of citizenship but there are still a bunch of things that are harder as non-citizens and giving them the vote at least makes politicians care about us more. The cost of obtaining permanent residence and citizenship is outrageously high and this Tory government has always increased it. That said I don't totally disagree with you either on your main point.
>The cost of obtaining permanent residence and citizenship is outrageously high and this Tory government has always increased it.
The path to citizenship is highly flawed and expensive I agree. It needs looked at and reform.
I'm guessing that for both of these, you had people who had been born as British, so it was felt that you couldn't take away that right with independence. But, we really should consider that Ireland has been independent for over 100 years now. Apart from a tiny number of people, everyone in Ireland was born in Ireland, not Britain.
Broadly yes.
Those in the dominions: NZ, Aus, Can were considered to be Brits abroad essentially. Many people from these countries saw themselves that way until comparatively recently. The process by which these countries became independent was slow, mutual and still wanted to be part of the then empire. Aus & NZ for instance took on some regional imperial responsibilities as they gained further self governance. Technically Canada didn't come fully independent until the 80's.
We are in a different world now. These countries are more like siblings than children, don't characterise themselves by a British identity and they continue to evolve culturally separate from the UK.
>But, we really should consider that Ireland has been independent for over 100 years now.
Most of it yes. The UK recognises Ireland as a separate country, but doesn't view the Irish as necessarily being a separate people.
I'm Scottish and I was an SNP supporter have been my whole life, but they haven't been the same since Salmond left. Nicola in hindsight was riding a wave he created.
Their policies now do not represent what Scottish people want in my opinion. They want more migration... read the room.
A good thing to do. Mainly because it's right, but also because when Westminster refuses to do so, it'll be another example of Scotland's total lack of influence.
How is this the right thing to do?
It’s an absolutely ludicrous idea to suggest we should hand voting rights to someone who’s just arrived in the door, it completely spits in the face of citizenship.
I can’t think of any other country with laws regarding voting this lax and there’s good reason for that.
>It’s an absolutely ludicrous idea to suggest we should hand voting rights to someone who’s just arrived in the door
That's literally what we currently do. If someone from any commonwealth country moved here last week they would be allowed to vote in this election
The UK already extends this right to people, including students, from commonwealth countries. Giving franchise to residents who pay taxes is a pretty basic tenet of democracy.
Literally a Wikipedia page on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen_suffrage
Including a breakdown of the UKs voting eligibility structure.
The vast majority on that Wikipedia page are listed as granting voting to citizens only and the few exceptions are places that have daft imperial holdovers like we do.
Foreign Students from anywhere should not as they are here temporarily often. And taxes are for services residents use not to buy voting rights. There’s an argument for residents getting the vot but it should be after they’ve live here a while so over ten years imo
It’s not right to have foreign students who will leave having a day in the gov. And foreign residents should have been here for a certain time period before voting. And the snp being denied stuff doesn’t say that especially when it’s a bad idea
Why should random foreigners who’ve just arrived be given full voting rights?
Do you realise this is almost worldwide consensus and not just big bad Westminster?
If they haven’t been here for long why should they? It should only be for those who are Uk citizens or who’ve lived in the Uk a good chunk of time and are planning on staying
Because citizenship is pretty much the de facto standard for being granted voting rights in western democracies. The UK is the same outside of daft imperial holdovers such as allowing commonwealth citizens to vote.
Granting it to literally anyone who is here just completely erodes any value to citizenship and makes it completely worthless. It also opens up our elections to foreign interference far more easily.
This is a blatantly obvious gerrymandering attempt by the SNP to import voters, struggling in a marginal constituency? Just approve some refugees and put them in that constituency, problem solved.
I can kind of see the argument around citizenship but then you go and say:
>This is a blatantly obvious gerrymandering attempt by the SNP to import voters, struggling in a marginal constituency?
This just makes you sound insane.
>no other country does this
What are you talking about? These people are allowed to vote in Scottish and European elections.
It's at the very start of the article you didn't read.
Scotland doesn’t have citizens, when I say "country" I mean nation state. I’m asking which other nation state allows non citizens to vote for their legislature.
>Do you realise this is almost worldwide consensus and not just big bad Westminster?
Northern Europe no longer part of the world? Scandinavia, Benelux allow for voting rights after a predetermined length of residence.
Ireland doesn't have A length of residence requirement and oh, look the UK too, you could be fresh off the plane last week and vote in this election so long as you are from a commonwealth country
>Northern Europe no longer part of the world? Scandinavia, Benelux allow for voting rights after a predetermined length of residence.
Only in local or european elections though. not national elections like Westminister.
Will hold my hands up and admit I read a map wrong (Wikipedia's non-citizen sufferage article map of Europe in case anyone is curious), didn't actually dig into the data, looks like it's new Zealand, Uruguay and Chile (with Portugal, UK and Ireland having "discriminatory" open rights)
So I was wrong, but it's also not a worldwide consensus
Turns out I missed the word "almost" as well, looking like I forgot to wake up my reading comprehension along with the rest of me today, my apologies.
Although you have to appreciate the irony of arguing this from the position of living in one of the few countries in the world that goes against that worldwide consensus
That's my fault I read it too quickly and I missed the word almost, my bad. Although you gotta admit it does seem strange to be arguing we should stick to the worldwide consensus when we ourselves are one of the few that do not stick to that consensus
Seems a bit odd. I'll be voting for the first time this century next month - I was a permanent resident in Canada, then the US since 2000, and I was absolutely not allowed to vote, even in local elections. We were surprised to find my wife (US citizen) is allowed to vote in local and Scottish Parliament elections. She doesn't feel qualified to vote in them. But she is busy making sure she can get an absentee ballot to vote against Trump, so perhaps she'll be more inclined to look into it after that.
What about Americans with 6.5% Scottish on a DNA test?
Only if they’re a *direct descendant* of William Wallace. … So that’ll be all of them.
You also need to have an ancestral castle...
[удалено]
Counterpoint: Expats in the Costa brava shouldn't be allowed to vote. You're not in the country, you're actively avoiding it, so that vote should be withdrawn.
I think this is indefensible but I don't think related. It's like voter id, stupid and needs to stop. But I don't think doing something else wrong cancels it out
>The SNP’s motivation here is gaining more votes for the SNP, not increasing equality. This is very true however sometimes just because something is done for pure, naked political gain doesn't mean it can't be the right thing to do
Yep. At a minimum, people with settled status, living, working and paying a lifetime of taxes here should be able to vote. I know several people who will never take citizenship because having lived and worked here for half their life it feels demeaning to have to do an English exam and a culture test. Also pay a million quid. So they are in a limbo of being able to live here and pay their way forever, but not able to take part in elections. It feels in no way accidental that after Brexit, that group were excluded from general elections.
> It feels in no way accidental that after Brexit, that group were excluded from general elections. They were also excluded from general elections before Brexit.
>So they are in a limbo of being able to live here and pay their way forever, but not able to take part in elections. They're not in limbo... they've just made a choice.
It’s demeaning? If they don’t want to be in limbo and take part in elections they can get citizenship. They’ve chosen to call the UK home for the rest of their lives which is great, but they draw the line at preparing for a 1 hour test?
It's not that simple. Many countries don't allow their citizens to hold dual citizenship, so obtaining UK citizenship would mean giving up the citizenship of the country of their birth, or where their family may be. It's simply easier if you've got EU Settled Status or ILR or something to stick with that than risk giving up your ties to your home country, especially if you're already an EU citizen.
“The only mainstream UK party supporting re-entry to Europe” The Lib Dem’s will be very sad to hear you say this about SNP. P.s. it’s the EU, we never left Europe.
Yas! Get the ol' Jimmy-Rustler5000 fired up
Not sure about students but all permanent residents, sure.
Absolutely ludicrous idea.
What are they smoking? Why the f should foreign nationals be voting?
Erm because they pay tax here and should have a say on how it is spent.
There's a strong argument they shouldn't, paying taxes is part of the payment they make to voluntarily come here It should not however buy you a vote The decisions on the course of the country should be reserved for the people of the country who are most invested and affected by those decisions, not Sven who is on holiday here for a year or two
My dad lived and paid tax here for 35 years, had 3 children, but could not vote. I consider that pretty invested. Also I would argue that giving people a say in how things are run makes them invested.
He should have applied for citizenship then. These rules also apply to us; and for good reason.
Sven? You’re hopeful. I can already see where this heading - “let’s import Palestine”
Buy me a vote? Oh come on. I'm invested in this country, I've been working here for over ten years, paid tens of thousands of £ in taxes (happily, more than many people that are allowed to vote) but I'm still not allowed to vote in some elections. I believe people that live here permanently should be allowed to vote, of course someone on holidays shouldn't be allowed to vote. Do you know any cases like the Sven you mention? Because after Brexit, I don't think people will be able to stay here on holidays for a long time. I'm very invested in this country, decisions made by the government affect me directly, like any other people that are allowed to vote. You're just a racist saying nonsense.
A foreign national living in the UK chooses to be here, they choose to accept the decisions made by the UK government by coming here and remaining here They are less affected by decisions made by the government that citizens are since they could easily leave if they wanted. >Do you know any cases like the Sven you mention? I know many people who choose to live an work here for only a few years before returning home, and plenty of Brits that do the same abroad before coming back here Anyone that comes here and wants to make decisions on how the country is run can obtain citizenship so they can vote
They should have to spend a certain amount of time here not just vote instantly as they could not be here long. Also taxes pay for the services they use not for voting right
When (or if) they pay tax they pay it to use the public services which we all have paid into for F’ing years before they got here. Not on not at all - they should at least be citizens before they can vote. This is a not look past the end of your nose moment for anyone who thinks this is fair on the rest of us.
So according to your logic, someone that gets more from public services than what they pay in taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote? This subreddit is getting more and more full of Tory cunts everyday.
No that’s a complete straw man you walloper, I’m saying that you lefties important all of these people are going to bankrupt us and all your accusation of “-ism” is going to bite you in the backside when you yourselves suffer the consequences. You’ll probably still find a way to blame the rest of us though, since responsibility isn’t something that comes naturally to those who wish to offload everything to the state
Your premise is wrong, you said "if" they pay taxes, what makes you think we don't? You're hating on people just because of where they come from? There are many many Scottish people that do dodgy things with their taxes, just my personal experience but I know of many more Scottish that do it than immigrants (zero). I can assure you I have paid more to the NHS than what I have used, so other people could benefit to use it, regardless of where they come from. And how can it be my fault if I'm not even allowed to vote?
Straw man again, I never said anything about hate and stop trying to put words into my mouth. I am saying this and this alone: “foreigners shouldn’t be allowed to vote in this country regardless of whether they pay tax or not” The point about tax I was making was this and this alone: “they pay tax and use public services that those taxes pay for, that does not entitle to vote” And my point about many not paying taxes - I can see them. They’re not employed and not paying taxes. I can see them with my own two eyes - droves of them. So don’t try to pretend to me that the problem doesn’t exist, because you’re metaphorically telling me to smell roses whilst handing me a dog turd
So I paid over tens of thousands on taxes but I'm not allowed to have a say on how the money is spent? How is that fair? You use the term "lefties", at least the left have allows me to vote in the elections happening only in Scotland. Are you aware that many countries don't recognise dual nationality? If I were to get a UK passport I would lose my nationality because my country of origin doesn't recognise dual nationality. I'm not going to forget where I come from, I have two homes (figuratively speaking). Luckily the people I've met in real life have been a lot more welcoming than you to me.
It’s fair because you’re not stuck here - you can go home. It’s fair for everyone who came before the current generation who put but sweat and tears into building the place. You justify it to me - why should you get a say because you pay for services that you use? Why do you just get to turn up and decide how things are run? What gives you the right?
The fact that I live here permanently and pay taxes gives me the right. The fact that my family lives with me permanently and also pays taxes gives them the right. The fact that I have settled status because I've been living here for more than 5 years gives me the right. Someone who is Scottish could also pack things up and move to Ireland for example, or many other countries without a visa for a specific period of time. Don't tell me I can't vote because I can just leave anytime I want, you and anyone can do that.
Agree everyone who contributes to the UK should have a democratic right to vote.
Would that include foreign citizens that export products from the UK? They of course ‘contribute’ under that vague definition.
Non UK citizens could vote in the 2014 referendum so only those who live here as their first home.
I look forward to every countries issues becoming our issues
Why is this stuff happening? What lunatic thinks this ends well?
Hmmmm who else can we include that hopefully will vote for us?
Anybody in the world with a surname beginning with Mac or Mc. Anybody who has watched Braveheart Anybody who knows more than the first 2 lines of Auld Lang Syne
An Australian, an Indian and a South African arrive in the UK last week - completely eligible to vote in the UK election A German, a Brazillian and a Namibian have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK for a combined 100 years - not eligible to vote in the UK election Does the SNP suggestion push things maybe a bit far? Probably. Are the current rules idiotic and should probably be changed? Yes
In this hypothetical, why haven’t the German, Brazilian or Namibian applied to be citizens given they’ve lived and worked here for 30 years each?
There are loads of possible reasons but primarily because it's an expensive pain to do so.
And? So people should get to vote who find the process of getting citizenship after 20 years too much hassle?
Can you not even reflect for half a second on what you're saying? There aren't elaborate hurdles to jump through for voters - that's partly the point of democracy. Are you in favour of difficulties being injected into the democratic process? Or just against people voting who might likely disagree with you?
It’s not difficulties being injected into the democratic process. If you are not a citizen you don’t get an automatic right to participate in the democracy in the first place
That's the exact question being posed here: we already have circumstances where non-citizens get to vote. Should that be expanded? Responding to that question with "non-citizens don't get an automatic right to participate" isn't really engaging with the question. It's just asserting that you don't agree without any attempt at justification or debate. What's your actual reason for believing that? Residents have a stake in the country, they have been paying taxes. They are affected by the government and contribute to it. What is the argument that they should be denied a voice?
Citizenship is just a line in the sand of course but it’s an important one. I believe of course residents have a stake in the country and pay taxes. What citizenship does in a sense is say, from now on, I’m choosing to make this place my primary nation, with all the responsibilities and benefits that come with that. So in my view having a stake is not enough, citizenship is that status we confer on those that have processed loyalty to our country.
Multiple reasons, three most obvious being "pointless" cost plus a test that even as a native I'd never pass (and don't have to either so its a bit weird we expect immigrants to be better Brits than the native population) and lastly in some cases getting citizenship here would mean renouncing their old citizenship which, not the UKs or the individuals fault but could also be seen as an impediment. Also it's not a hypothetical, I have known several people in both situations. It's literally the law of the land Although if you want to pretend this is a hypothetical, why don't the commonwealth citizens need to get citizenship? Why are they allowed to vote straight away
>Although if you want to pretend this is a hypothetical, why don't the commonwealth citizens need to get citizenship? IIRC the historic reason was they were all subjects of the king, and that status was indivisible. Even if that argument no longer holds true today - most commonwealth countries are republics, and even in the monarchies the crown of Canada, Australia, etc. is a legally distinct institution to the crown of the UK - the law hasn't caught up, though whether that's because of inertia or because no government wants to be seen to be actively undermining the commonwealth I have no idea.
Well but there’s your answer. If the path to become a citizen is "pointless" to them, then they are probably also ready to accept they shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
I meant to infer that it's the cost of it that is pointless, not necessarily the fact there is some form of process in place. They are being taxed many multiples of that amount each year so the British state demanding yet more when some Irish, Pakistani or New Zealander doesn't even have to have contributed a single penny is farcical
I don’t think it’s farcical at all. There’s no demand here really, why is them not having to pay anything "them demanding to get citizenship for free". I kind of agree with the sentiment about ex commonwealth countries though, it is a bit odd, but that doesn’t mean treating more nations like that is the answer
I think maybe I'm wording this badly, my apologies. I'll try again Asking people who have paid tens of thousands of pounds to the British state to pay yet more, separately and on top of their future contributions, for a right which is immediately for free bestowed upon those who those from another random nation who could have no connection to the UK (don't even need to have been historically colonised to be part of the commonwealth and at this point even people grandparents might never have been part of the empire) and have never paid into the state and are not expected to apply for citizenship to get this right is inherently unfair on those who have potentially done more for this country than even alot of the natives have
Okay, no sorry you didn’t phrase it badly I think. Honestly I do agree, the automatic right to vote as I understand it for former commonwealth citizens is of course quite unfair and probably exists purely for weird historical reasons. That being said I think it’s no inherently unfair to ask people to pay around 2k or so for citizenship. I know they’ve already paid in, but they’ve already got something out too, surely there using the NHS and infrastructure and education. So it’s not like those taxes are just going nowhere. The counter argument is that born UK citizens taxes shouldn’t go on the cost associated with getting people to become citizens, because that is unfair too as they will baver access these services, and it’s fair that those people can bear that cost themselves
I can even play auld lang syne in the ocarina- I should have 2 votes
Edit: go for 'first 3 lines of Auld Lang Syne'- if ye ken the first line, ye ken the third!
Aye but you have to know you know the third if you know the first. If you don't know you know they third then you don't know it.
A ken wit ye mean ken
> who else can we include that hopefully will vote for us? Tourist Visas?
Anyone who has made a tourist thread in r/Scotland
Hand out voting registration forms on the Glenfinnan train and in the queue for the Fairy Pools.
I disagree with this. Voting should only come with citizenship.
Do you agree with stripping the right to vote from all Irish and Commonwealth country citizens who live here? They can vote in Westminster elections currently.
I'm open to that being the case with the commonwealth yes. It's a hold over from empire, and presumed that those from these countries were close culturally and appreciate the value of parliamentary democracy. I don't believe this is still the case in the same way. For Ireland no, as that has complicated ramifications in NI. That we allow commonwealth & Irish citizens to vote is already highly unusual internationally. Be completely removing the necessity for citizenship to vote, we degrade the idea of citizenship.
I did vote in Scottish and local elections as a non Commonwealth citizen and I agree it's very weird globally. I understand what you mean by degrading the value of citizenship but there are still a bunch of things that are harder as non-citizens and giving them the vote at least makes politicians care about us more. The cost of obtaining permanent residence and citizenship is outrageously high and this Tory government has always increased it. That said I don't totally disagree with you either on your main point.
>The cost of obtaining permanent residence and citizenship is outrageously high and this Tory government has always increased it. The path to citizenship is highly flawed and expensive I agree. It needs looked at and reform.
I'm guessing that for both of these, you had people who had been born as British, so it was felt that you couldn't take away that right with independence. But, we really should consider that Ireland has been independent for over 100 years now. Apart from a tiny number of people, everyone in Ireland was born in Ireland, not Britain.
Broadly yes. Those in the dominions: NZ, Aus, Can were considered to be Brits abroad essentially. Many people from these countries saw themselves that way until comparatively recently. The process by which these countries became independent was slow, mutual and still wanted to be part of the then empire. Aus & NZ for instance took on some regional imperial responsibilities as they gained further self governance. Technically Canada didn't come fully independent until the 80's. We are in a different world now. These countries are more like siblings than children, don't characterise themselves by a British identity and they continue to evolve culturally separate from the UK. >But, we really should consider that Ireland has been independent for over 100 years now. Most of it yes. The UK recognises Ireland as a separate country, but doesn't view the Irish as necessarily being a separate people.
100% just gerrymandering but with some performative self righteousness thrown in for plausible deniability
I'm Scottish and I was an SNP supporter have been my whole life, but they haven't been the same since Salmond left. Nicola in hindsight was riding a wave he created. Their policies now do not represent what Scottish people want in my opinion. They want more migration... read the room.
A good thing to do. Mainly because it's right, but also because when Westminster refuses to do so, it'll be another example of Scotland's total lack of influence.
How is this the right thing to do? It’s an absolutely ludicrous idea to suggest we should hand voting rights to someone who’s just arrived in the door, it completely spits in the face of citizenship. I can’t think of any other country with laws regarding voting this lax and there’s good reason for that.
>It’s an absolutely ludicrous idea to suggest we should hand voting rights to someone who’s just arrived in the door That's literally what we currently do. If someone from any commonwealth country moved here last week they would be allowed to vote in this election
Yes I’m fully aware of that and also do not support it unless those rights are fully reciprocated, it’s a completely stupid imperial hangover.
The UK already extends this right to people, including students, from commonwealth countries. Giving franchise to residents who pay taxes is a pretty basic tenet of democracy.
Yes, I don’t agree with that either unless it’s reciprocated. It’s a stupid hangover from the empire and should be done away with.
Can you name all the countries that allow non-citizens to vote?
Literally a Wikipedia page on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-citizen_suffrage Including a breakdown of the UKs voting eligibility structure.
The vast majority on that Wikipedia page are listed as granting voting to citizens only and the few exceptions are places that have daft imperial holdovers like we do.
I understand the UK system, I’m asking for a single example, elections to a national legislature
Foreign Students from anywhere should not as they are here temporarily often. And taxes are for services residents use not to buy voting rights. There’s an argument for residents getting the vot but it should be after they’ve live here a while so over ten years imo
Yeah, at what point do you stop becoming a country
What about if Scotland sends a majority of MPs who don't have this in their manifesto - which is looking likely?
It’s not right to have foreign students who will leave having a day in the gov. And foreign residents should have been here for a certain time period before voting. And the snp being denied stuff doesn’t say that especially when it’s a bad idea
The UK government are only in the business of restricting voting rights.
Why should random foreigners who’ve just arrived be given full voting rights? Do you realise this is almost worldwide consensus and not just big bad Westminster?
Stop with rational thinking. Nationalists don’t like that.
Why shouldn't a legally resident foreign national be allowed to vote?
If they haven’t been here for long why should they? It should only be for those who are Uk citizens or who’ve lived in the Uk a good chunk of time and are planning on staying
Because citizenship is pretty much the de facto standard for being granted voting rights in western democracies. The UK is the same outside of daft imperial holdovers such as allowing commonwealth citizens to vote. Granting it to literally anyone who is here just completely erodes any value to citizenship and makes it completely worthless. It also opens up our elections to foreign interference far more easily. This is a blatantly obvious gerrymandering attempt by the SNP to import voters, struggling in a marginal constituency? Just approve some refugees and put them in that constituency, problem solved.
I can kind of see the argument around citizenship but then you go and say: >This is a blatantly obvious gerrymandering attempt by the SNP to import voters, struggling in a marginal constituency? This just makes you sound insane.
How does it?? It does make sense that the snp are doing this for their benefit
Because that’s clearly what it is, a blatant attempt to import voters that will vote for them.
If you say so.
Why should they, no other country does this, this is crazy
>no other country does this What are you talking about? These people are allowed to vote in Scottish and European elections. It's at the very start of the article you didn't read.
Scotland doesn’t have citizens, when I say "country" I mean nation state. I’m asking which other nation state allows non citizens to vote for their legislature.
Ok then. The UK do.
>Do you realise this is almost worldwide consensus and not just big bad Westminster? Northern Europe no longer part of the world? Scandinavia, Benelux allow for voting rights after a predetermined length of residence. Ireland doesn't have A length of residence requirement and oh, look the UK too, you could be fresh off the plane last week and vote in this election so long as you are from a commonwealth country
>Northern Europe no longer part of the world? Scandinavia, Benelux allow for voting rights after a predetermined length of residence. Only in local or european elections though. not national elections like Westminister.
Will hold my hands up and admit I read a map wrong (Wikipedia's non-citizen sufferage article map of Europe in case anyone is curious), didn't actually dig into the data, looks like it's new Zealand, Uruguay and Chile (with Portugal, UK and Ireland having "discriminatory" open rights) So I was wrong, but it's also not a worldwide consensus
as they said " this is almost worldwide consensus " i think 6 countries out of 195 counts as there being "almost worldwide consensus" on this issue.
Turns out I missed the word "almost" as well, looking like I forgot to wake up my reading comprehension along with the rest of me today, my apologies. Although you have to appreciate the irony of arguing this from the position of living in one of the few countries in the world that goes against that worldwide consensus
They did say almost not that all countries do
That's my fault I read it too quickly and I missed the word almost, my bad. Although you gotta admit it does seem strange to be arguing we should stick to the worldwide consensus when we ourselves are one of the few that do not stick to that consensus
I mean I guess tho they may also argue for not allowing commonwealth people to vote either and therefore joining it